>> he's a pathological liar, too. he believes -- he seems to believe this stuff. >> yeah. >> when nixon lied, i think we knew he knew he was lying but we're not so sure about trump. >> yeah. >> thank you both for being here. that is "all in" for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts now. thank you, my friend. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. we've been working all day on the assumption by this time this evening, quite possibly in this hour during our show we would be looking at one of these late-night showdown monumental down to the wire votes in washington. as of now, that is not happening but we literally got reporters standing by on scene in the event this gets started up again. the details on why they are not voting now and what went wrong in republican's plan to pass gigantic legislation tonight, the first legislation they will have passed in the trump administration, those details about what went wrong in that story about what happened over the course tonight is pretty

dramatic. we're going to have that story coming up in a second. i want to let you know attorney general jeff sessions testified to the house intelligence committee. he testified behind closed doors but after the attorney general's testimony was over, california congressman adam schiff, the top democrat on that come hmittee c out of the room and talked to the press what happened with the attorney general. he said he needed to express his concerned about what just happened. basically congressman schiff is ringing a bell. closed-door testimony by congressman sessions but congressman schiff said behind the closed doors, he asked the attorney general whether president trump ever instructed him to take action that he believed would hinder the russia investigation and raising the alarm that he says the attorney general is refusing to answer that question about whether the

president ever asked him to do that. now, obviously, if the president did what congressman schiff asked about, if the president of the united states asked the attorney general to hinder an on going criminal investigation, that would be a criminal act by the president. there is no way the attorney general or the president could therefore claim something like that would be covered by executive privilege so again, we didn't have access directly to that testimony from the attorney general today but the congressman say something serious happened behind closed doors with the attorney general refusing to answer that very direct question so we'll have more on that coming up tonight. i think that is something that the attorney general or justice department is going to have to cleanup in someway or address in someway or try to deny it. because if what happened under oath today is -- went the way congressman schiff said, we'll be back to that later on.

i want to interrupt myself by telling you just in the last couple minutes, "the new york times" has just run a story, just published a story on a separate but related matter. here is the lead "the new york times" just published. quote, president trump over the summer repeatedly urged senior senate republicans including the chairman of the senate intelligence committee to end that committee's investigation into russia interference in the 2016 election. "the new york times" publishing this a few minutes ago according to half a dozen lawmakers and aids. this is just posted. we're just digging into this. i'll let you know what we're able to get in terms of whether we get in touch with one of these reporters, as well. there is actually a significant number of developments today in the robert mueller investigation and special counsel investigation into russian interference in the election last year and whether the trump campaign was involved in that. today the trump campaign chairman paul manafort charge in

a 12-count felony indictment now appears to have successfully negotiated a bail agreement with prosecutors. not all of the court filings related to the bail negotiations were unsealed today but based on what we can see, it appears that paul manafort will be let off house arrest, he'll be allowed to travel within the united states but not internationally. it appears that he will also get to drop his ankle bracelet in exchange for that freedom. the campaign chairman listed over $10 million in florida real estate that would apparently be forfeited. all real estate forfeited to the government if manafort decided to rabbit and not show up to court. so again, paul manafort apparently reaching a bail agreement with the government today. in other robert mueller investigation news, multiple investigations confirmed that white house senior advisor and presidential son-in-law jared kushner has been interviewed by

robe robert mueller's prosecutors. there are conflilgticting repor what they interviewed jared kushner about. sources described he was only interviewed by mike flynn but rega regardless of what exactly muller's investigators talked to kushner about, the fact the interview took place, it reaches into the very top levels of serving white house ocho i shff and not incidentally reaches into the president's immediate family, as well. to the extent that news like that might freak out the white house or republican supporters of the president, we were able to confirm tonight that the budget for the robert mueller investigation, what they have spent so far in the special counsel's office, that information will be released next week. whatever that number is, however much the muller team has spent,

rest assured that the trump white house and trump supporting republicans and congress will fate at the sight of that number. no matter what it is. whatever it is they will decide that it is way, way too much to spend and as a nation, we definitely can't afford to keep investigating this russia thing anymore so the muller investigation must be shut down. if they spent $2.95, there will be a republican senator who pretends to faint at the size, the big size of that number. if you want to save yourself time for next week, go ahead and write those new stories now for when those numbers come out. today the director of the fbi christopher wray was on capitol hill and under questioning of the attack of last year's election by the russian government, the fbi director announced without warning and fanfare that under his leadership, the fbi started a new multi agency task force to come back for an influence in

the united states including u.s. elections. you have -- we have no advance notice that the fbi director would make that announcement. we had no supportive reporting or leaks or background prep from any officials this effort was underway or would be announced today. but this is a big deal, right? this is the first news we have had of any part of the government under the trump administration doing anything at all to try to defend the country against the kind of russian incursion we had into the elections last year. this is the first time we've heard of them doing anything about that. and you want to hear something funny about this? so we have covered the russia attack on our election last year a lot on this show as you know we cover this closely. everybody that works on the show is well-versed in that story and what is known and therefore what counts as new news. that's what happens when you cover something intensively in

an on going way and we cover this intentionalsivntensively. we were shocked to hear this announcement from christopher wray, there is a new countering task force. we never heard anything like this. we had no idea it was coming. we have this story down pat, trust me. as soon as the fbi director made this announcement in this testimony on capitol hill today, we immediately called the fbi. what? what are you talking about? this seems like a very big deal. we had no idea anything like this was happening so we posed questions to the fbi. has the fbi or justice department put out a fact sheet on director's task force? when was it formed? how large is it? how many different divisions does it involve? is it working in congestion with other arms of the government. direct director wray, by the way, we're on the air tonight at 9:00.

we would love to know any of these answers. any of them? can you just -- this is the response we got from the fbi. this is an issue the fbi has been working on for awhile. we don't have any other details. >> so maybe we the american public just learned something big today about this moment in modern american history where we're in the aftermath of russia interfering and having a huge counter intelligence investigation whether the campaign was in cahoots with russia during this attack. maybe there was huge news today that the fbi has a new multi agency and indeed, multi national effort underway to counter foreign influence in the united states after the debacle with last year's presidential elections when all of these russians, all 19 of them at least made their way into the trump campaign to some degree. maybe there is some big new effort we just learned about today in american law

enforcement and american governance to respond to that. it's possible. but if the fbi is mounting that big new effort, i can tell you not a single thing about it. not a single detail. no further details for you at this time. so we will keep poking at this. we'll keep trying to figure it out and i expect they will continue to give us nothing for quite sometime. on the house side of capitol hill today, the fate of john n conyers became more precarious. not only has he announced he'll step down on the judiciary committee, he plans to announce in january that he will not run for reelection next year. that was the news as of last night but today despite that word from coniehis camp, today pressure got considerably stronger when the full

leadership of the democratic party and house said not just that the sexual harassment claims should be investigated, today the democratic leadership moved on from that position to say john conyers should resign. nancy pelosi and james calling for his resignation. congressman conyers is 88 years old. he was hospitalized today for stress-related illness. remains to be seen how and when he'll make this decision but the pressure is quite intense. all that said, here's what is going on tonight in terms of the drama that we have been watching for and expecting in washington. in an important sense what has gone wrong tonight for republicans in washington has to do with this man who is our nation's treasury secretary. >> one thing that i would like

to clear up first and foremost is how you pronounce your name because i heard it pronounced 15 different ways by people that swear they know your family. mnuchin. >> mnuchin. >> steven. >> steven mnuchin just so people know. >> you guys, it's steven. it's not steve. it's steven. steven mnuchin. he was a fundraiser for the donald trump campaign. he has no background in public service. he did make a ton of money in the financial crisis foreclosing on low-income californians that led to marches like this on his 23,000 square foot california mansion. marches led by some of the people he was turfing out onto the street because of the wall street collapse. steve mnuchin is a money guy and that has felt very true in his tenure as treasury secretary. our highest profile is probably

a tie between two different things but both kind of money face forward events. the first experience we had of him is when he took his new pride to fort knox to see the money. literally he brought her to fort knox to inspect the gold. the secretary and his wife flew to kentucky to have experience on a air force jet because military jets cost more than private jets just to look at money so that was kind of perfect. the other high-profile experience we had of our treasury secretary was captured in this lovely photo from the u.s. mint. these are very famous. they probably require no further discussion on anyone's part but, you know, this is how we experience him. the nation's treasury secretary, that is a job that involves dealing with money. you get to put your name on the money if you're pressurery

secretary which is what that was about. clearly, he likes touching money. and then the handling money and looking at money part of his job and you can't fault him for that, i guess. for people who enjoy looking at, touching and frolicking among money, treasury is probably the ideal job in government but beyond just that, you know, stuff that's fun to do with your wife at work apparently, there are other things you're supposed to do as treasury secretary that are about money but they don't involve just playing with it. and that tonight is what has become a very big last-minute problem for republicans in washington and that story is next. molly, can you please take out the trash? (sigh) ( ♪ ) dad: molly! trash! ( ♪ )

whoo! ( ♪ ) mom: hey, molly? it's time to go! (bell ringing) class, let's turn to page 136, recessive traits skip generations. who would like to read? ( ♪ ) molly: i reprogrammed the robots to do the inspection. it's running much faster now. see? it's amazing, molly. thank you. ( ♪ ) thangrandma's. aunt stacy's.

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last week republicans unveiled the tax bill a big piece of legislation that would have a dramatic effect of the economy on the super power in the world. the republicans are trying to pass the tax bill without holding any hearings on it. they unveiled it last week. no debate. no hearings. the strategy is to go fast and don't talk about and it that, of course, is leading to expected criticism from expected quarters. the headline for example on the lead editorial in the "new york times" today. the senate is rushing to pass the tax bill because it stinks. even though republicans are trying to go very fast and not holding hearings and not holding any debate, even just in the past week since they unveiled this thing, that has been enough opportunity for the congressional budget office, which is non-partisan and for

so some outside policy groups to start doing the math on what it is that republicans are proposing. when the cbo looked at it for example, they found the republican bill will result in 13 million americans being thrown off health insurance and everybody that still has health insurance coverage will see premiums spike because of the republican tax bill. cbo analysis found the republican plan will add $1.4 trillion to the deficit. in terms of who it helps and hurts, well, you know exactly who it helps but will actually represent a tax increase, an increase for most people at the lower end of the income spectrum. the smaller your income, the worse you will get hit by this bill and for the middle class, this bill will raise your taxes on most middle class families. no matter how fast you're trying to vote on this, those are bad numbers. that looks really bad. republicans like the idea of

getting something passed because they have passed no legislation since trump has been president but this thing they are getting passed is quite unpopular. people hate it. republicans hope new better, shinier numbers might come out about this. the congressional budget office isn't the only non-partisan government office that crunches the numbers on things like this for tax bills, there is also system called the joint tax satn and we've been waiting to hear from them and hoping they would put out their report on the bill and the joint committee on taxation, their report would be better. they want that committee to do their analysis to affect the republican's greatest hopes and optimism about the good things that might happen because of this tax bill. they should score it that way. that report is now out. it does use the magic dynamic scoring that the republicans were so excited about with this

report but it turns out even with the magic dynamic scoring, the numbers are still terrible. even these very optimistic new dynamically scored figures that are just out for the joint committee on taxation, they say what the republicans are doing will add a trillion dollars to the debt. and the way you get to that terrible outcome of a new trillion in debt is by transferring a ton of wealth from the middle class to people who are already the wealthiest people in the country. it's just an uncomplicated transfer. families making between 40 and $50,000 a year will pay $5.3 billion more in taxes. so people making over $1 million a year can pay $5.8 million less in taxes. why should people making $40,000 a year get a huge tax hike for any purpose? let alone for that purpose. so this is ours, these are very

bad numbers that have come out and continued to come out because they thought they would get magic numbers that made it look good tonight. well, that was what we thought was going to happen over the course of today into tonight until things went off the rails at the last minute. here is what happened and what went wrong and that has to do with the treasury secretary. fighting about numbers, fighting about math is something everybody in washington has done a lot of. usually what happens when one party's legislation gets really bad numbers and the math looks terrible is that you, you know, try to make your own math, try to come up with different math. you take issue with policy groups to evaluate legislation and say no, they are bias and dumb don't pay attention to their numbers and take issue with the professional expert reports produced by the cbo and joint committee ontaxation.

those people are terrible. they do terrible work, too. when you want to fight a fight like this, you want to discredit outside numbers and bipartisan numbers and then you come up with your own numbers. you say sure, everybody else's math says this will be a terrible thing we'll do to the country but look, we have our own numbers from our own party, administration produced its own math and their numbers make this look great. that is usually how this goes. that's the standard plot line for bad, stupid, uninformed maht fights. we have a plot line. at one level it seems clear that steven mnuchin, our treasury secretary, seems clear he reck na news this is where he comes in. don't worry about other numbers. i got really good numbers right

here. >> we're running a lot of numbers. i think you've heard me talk about we believe in dynamic, not static scoring. that's something very important. we have over 100 people in the tax group in a modelling area and they are working around the clock on running scenarios for us. >> over 100 people in the tax group, the modelling area working around the clock. that was steven mnuchin. treasury secretary speaking with cnbc but this is the thing he says frequently over and over again. >> we're working on lots of details as to this we have over 100 people in the treasury that have been working on tax ask scoring lots of different scenarios. >> steven mnuchin, treasury secretary says he has over 100 people in the tax group and modelling area working around the clock on these scenarios and will show this tax bill pays for itself. no, this thing is free. that's what he's been saying. turns out that's not true. and i'm not taking issue with

what the numbers are here. it turns out when he says we've been working on this in the treasury department, nobody has been working on that in the treasury department. here is alan wrap pa port writing quote, in pitching the $1.5 trillion tax overhaul, steven mnuchin, the treasury secretary said repeatedly the plan will pay for itself and over 100 people in treasury are working around the clock on running scenarios for us, however, quote, those inside treasury's office of tax policy, which mr. mnuchin credited with running these models say that are not working on the type of analysis he mentioned. an economist that spoke not to jeopardize his job tells "the new york times" that treasury hasn't released a dynamic analysis showing that the tax plan would be paid for with economic growth because quote one does not exist. they didn't do this work he says

they have been doing and now this is a big problem for the trump administration and republican party because all the outside groups and bipartisan groups are saying what the republicans are doing with this tax thing is going to add a trillion dollars or a trillion and a half dollars to the deficit. to combat that deadly argument, republicans are supposed to get magic numbers from steve mnuchin saying everything is free. he's been saying for months he has more than 100 people working around the clock to produce these magic numbers to say this is free and doesn't add anything to the deficit. turns out nobody has been working on these magic numbers and not just an abstract problem. they promised they would get magic numbers to specific republican senators who were apparently counting on them. senator bob corker says treasury department officials told him last week he would be provided a treasury analysis before the full senate considered the bill.

he sights trays treasury was un deliver. the numbers are not coming. they didn't do the work. the treasury department didn't try to do this. the trump administration never did any of the math. even though they said they were working on it, they didn't. in addition to the wonderment that create cis they wanted to a $1.5 million thing without doing the math, in addition to the wonder the problem, this is creating a problem for steven mnuch mnuchin. he's opened an inquiry into the analysis of the tax plan. now that we know that the dog ate that homework and those numbers aren't coming and now that we've got the latest

bipartisan analysis saying even in a best case optimistic scenario, this will add a trillion dollars to the deficit, now that that happened tonight, republicans got stopped in their tracks looking like a plan to pass this tonight rushing it through. secretary mnuchin appears to have screwed this up and appears there are no magic numbers coming this their rescue. this thing did get stopped in its tracks tonight. will it stay stopped? joining us is fellow center chief economist and economic policy officer. nice to see you, thank you for being here. >> my pleasure, rachel. >> it turns out that the treasury department didn't do any analysis of what this bill would do. that fact alone is that weird? >> it is weird, and one of the reasons they didn't do it is because there are no magic numbers. what you just described in great and compelling detail was a very simple reality that we already

knew. anyone whose been paying attention, which is that trickle down economics do not work. okay? if you're going to cut taxes by 1.5 trillion, if your motivation is to transfer so much income from the middle and moderate income families to the top of the scale, that's going to increase the deficit and you can make all kinds of assertions about how that's not the case but every time we've tried it, every time other countries tried it, that's the result and the staffers in the office of tax analysis at treasury are people with great integrity who really know this stuff and there is no way they will gin up a kind of magic ferry dust trickle down story that steven mnuchin -- i like to call him steve since he wants to be called steven was trying to sell on everyone. >> i understand that you know the economic side of this stuff and observed the politics closely over the years.

it does feel like republican senators were actually expecting to get something from treasury and the treasury department, treasury secretary said this will be free and pay for itself. from your understanding of politics here, are there actually republicans in the senate who will care enough about adding a trillion or a trillion and a half dollars on the deficit it will help them vote no. >> there are a couple republicans putting a bit of a bump in this process, a roadblock tonight because they don't like that one trillion added to the deficit but the question is as follows. will those republicans accept a fig leaf process for cover and then vote yes on the bill and i got to tell you, i'm afraid they will. another thing that went wrong for them is they had a process they were going to use, a trigger mechanism by which if they didn't collect the revenue that they needed to offset these

did i ha deficits, these tax increases would be kicked in. that is ruled to be something they couldn't do. that was taken out of the picture. now they are talking about other mechanisms to potentially raise taxes later if they don't get the revenues they want. even if they get these mechan m mechanis mechanisms, they will be left with a sizable budget deficit but as you suggested, a budget deficit motivated by transferring a bunch of money to the one sector in the economy doing great, multi national corporations and the heirs of rich estates but do you trust a future congress to step in and raise the revenues they need to offset this? i mean, i think that's a pretty tough bet to make. so i'm concerned that the supposed deficit hawks are actually chicken hawks who will be easily bought off. >> jared bernstein, former chief economist and advised a viadvis president biden.

i know we expect they will pick this back up mid morning tomorrow. we'll watch what happens. >> my pleasure. >> we'll be right back. i got to tell you, i mentioned at the top of the show we got a report from the new york times that is very provocative in terms of the president potentially being under skroocry for obstructing justice. "the new york times" just published a very detailed report with a lot of named sources saying that the president treasured specific senators to end the congressional inquiry into russia's involvement into the election. this is new news on the election. we got more on that. stay with us. the dedicated... the overachievers. we know our best investment is in ourselves. we don't take no for an answer. we fight for what we want. even for the things that were once a given. going to college... buying a home... and not being in debt for it for the rest of our lives. but we're only as strong as our community. who inspires and pushes us to go further than we could ever go alone.

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together, we're building a better california. i mentioned at the top of the show since we got on the air, we had big breaking news from "the new york times" documents efforts by the president to try to stop the congressional investigations into russia. russia's involvement in the presidential election and potential involvement of russia into the trump campaign. now "the new york times" headline tonight is trump pressed top republicans to end senate russia inquiry. the lead of the story is this, president trump over the summer repeatedly urged senior senate republicans including the chairman of the senate intelligence committee to end the investigation into russia's interference in the 2016 election. they are siting a half dozen law mangers a emakers and aids from president into a inquir inquiry. one of the top republicans

reportedly pressured by the president was the chairman of the senate intelligence committee richard burr in an interview, mr. burr told "the times" quote i hope you can conclude this as quickly as possible and replied when we have exhausted everybody we need to talk to, we will finish. the times says quote in addition, according to lawmakers and aids mr. trump told senator roy blunt a member of the intelligence committee to end the investigation swiftly. the article also reports that in addition to directly lobbying senator burr himself, the president apparently contacted other republican senators to pressure burr and lean on senator burr to wrap up his committee's investigation. new news from "the new york times." joining us is joyce vance. ms. vance, thank you for joining us on short notice. i know you're abshuorbing this we are tonight. >> glad to join you, rachel. >> we know the president -- it's

been reported the president is under scrutiny for obstruction of justice with regard to the fbi investigation into russia matters and the president reportedly pressuring james comey then the director of the fbi to lay off the flynn investigation. the president is reportedly been under scrutiny by the muller investigation whether his firing of james comey represented obstruction of justice. they have named sources and the president was trying to get a congressional investigation into russia to be called off, to be ended prematurely, is that potentially obstruction of justice? >> it's potentially obstruction of justice. it may be even more interesting to the muller team because it would be evidence that they could use to demonstrate what the president's state of mind was and if he were to try to excuse the comey firing as based on comey's conduct of the clinton investigation, this

continued pressure on senators to terminate the russia investigation would be helpful to demonstrate that the comey firing had the intention of terminating the russia investigation. >> is ignorance a defense? a matter like this? if the president, you know, had never read a political thriller, had never watched a movie about corruption and had never ever had reason to learn about how obstruction of justice works or how you illegally impede an investigation and he thought it was okay for him to direct the senate to stop an investigation, would his ignorance on that subject, would that be a defense? >> right, if he live in a bubble despite his experience in life. there is an old saying that young lawyers learn in law school. ignorance of the law is no defense. would that apply here? i think that there are a number of factors that would work against the use of ignorance as a defense in addition to the

fact it's unlikely he was sheerly likely or sheerly ign l ignorant of the president shutting down an investigation. i think that there are plenty of circumstantial factors and push back for doing it would make the ignorance defense a very weak one and there is also some suggestion and we've heard this before, he didn't understand how these sorts of matters preceded. this isn't the type of defense that tends to hold up in a corruption case. it's tried a lot and fails a lot. >> joyce, let me read you one other portion of this article of what has been published by "the new york times" tonight because you're talking about evidence of the president's state of mind, his intent here, whether or not ignorance of the law would be a defense in this case. there is some pretty provocative characterization in the "times"

piece, how the senators who the president approached here felt about him approaching him. how they received this pressure from him. i just want to read you two quick sections from the article. quote, mr. trump called lawmakers with requests they push senator burr to finish the inquiry according to a republican senator to discuss contact with the president. this senator says he was alarmed upon hearing word of the president's pleas and said mr. trump's request to the other senators was clear. they should urge mr. burr to bring the russia investigation to a close. later in the article, the times says this, one republican close to mr. burr said that mr. trump had been very forceful in his intervention with senator burr telling burr to stop the investigation. those -- that reaction by those senators saying that they found this to be alarming, they found this to be a forceful

intervention concerned by this. how did that factor into this as potential legal matter? >> this is really damaging evidence, right? this means that the president tried directly with senator burr wasn't successful and proceeded to go to everyone around him in an effort to put pressure on him and it would be helpful evidence but rachel, one thing we have to remember is it's unlikely we'll ever see a bob muller indictment of a sitting president. it's more likely we'll see this evidence, this information packaged into some sort of report that goes to the house that will then be used by folks in the house to gauge whether or not impeachment is appropriate. how that all plays into political specter as opposed to in front of a judge in a courtroom i think is a very interesting question and the evidence may not have the impact on the hill that it would have in a courtroom. >> joyce vance, former u.s. attorney from the great state of barack obam

alabama. joyce, thank you for helping us understand this on short notice. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> we have a member of the house intelligence committee on deck. stay with us. josh's jousting hath latgrown a little...at (laughs) aggressive. dude that freaketh me out, man. i'd paid for the turkey legs, like, thrice in the past fortnight. i was vexed! but chainmail hath no pockets, you know that. you're right. i should hath spoken sooner. no, i behaved like an ill-bred, beef-witted clack-dish. huzzah! -huzzah! hey, you want to grab some turkey?

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was supposed to be a wake reup call for our government?sh people all across the country lost their savings, their pensions and their jobs. i'm tom steyer and it turned out that the system that had benefited people like me who are well off, was, in fact, stacked against everyone else. it's why i left my investment firm and resolved to use my savings for the public good. but here we are nine years later

and this president and the republican congress are making a bad situation even worse. they won't tell you that their so called "tax reform" plan is really for the wealthy and big corporations, while hurting the middle class. it blows up the deficit and that means fewer investments in education, health care and job creation. it's up to all of us to stand up to this president. not just for impeachable offenses, but also to demand a country where everyone has a real chance to succeed. join us. your voice matters. if president trump is under scrutiny as reported due to his pressure on the fbi and fbi director james comey to end the fbi investigation into mike flynn, if that report, that the president is under scrutiny by

the special counsel for potential obstruction of justice in that matter, if that report is true, then today and tonight have brought two new important developments in terms of our understanding of the potential light til tly of obstruction of justice and "the new york times" article that posed regarding multiple u.s. senators describing the president's efforts multiple times to pressure them into ending the congressional russia matter to get them to ended senate intelligence inquiry. that has just come out tonight from "the new york times." that follows what happened today behind closed doors that led the democrat to walk outside that committee behind those closed doors and step in front of the cameras and raise this red flag.

>> i do want to express my concern over his refusal to respond to what i think is a very important question. i asked the attorney general whether he was ever instructed by the president to take any action that would hinter the russia investigation and he declined to answer the question. there is no privilege basis to decline to answer the question like that. if the president did not instruct him to take the action that would hinder the investigation, he would say so. if the president did obstruct him to hinder the investigation in any way, this my view that would be a potentially criminal act and certainly not covered by any privilege. >> the top democrat saying today that he asked the attorney general directly today whether the president ever instructed him to hinder the investigation.

the attorney general is refusing to answer that question. that would be a big deal if that's true and would have to clarify now. jim himes joins us next. (♪) it all starts with a wish. the lincoln wish list event is here. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down and a complementary first months payment. but prevagen helps your brain with an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. the name to remember.

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joining us now is congressman jim hymes. >> hi, rachel.

>> i want your story that reports that the president intervened with multiple senators with the chairman of the intelligence committee to pressure them to drop their russia investigation in the senate and senators describing this as forceful and alarming pressure. >> we did not know anything about this article. you think about the context here and start with the president calls it fake news and rages about it and remember back to where he fired jim comedy and said he did that to relief the pressure of the investigation remember back to jim comey testifying saying that and that we have been to some extent compromised and it disturbs me

because he's a friend and took actions that looked like helping the president in the context of this investigation. you heardmed ed adam schiff by the way, when the report is written, it will be true that sen yo officials were talked to, questioned, asked about this by the president. >> you mean other administration officials or law enforcement officials were approached by the president and pressured to end russia investigations? >> i don't want to use the word pressure but a topic of intense interest with some administration officials by the president. >> when adam schiff came out of this testimony today, obviously you heard closed door testimony from the attorney general and we know we respect that and you're not going g ing to characterize

any more but what congressman schiff said is very provocative stuff. he said the attorney general is refusing to answer questions as to whether or not president trump pressured him on the russia investigation. can you confirm for us that is the way -- that that happened the way congressman schiff said. >> it was an odd moment. there is an executive privilege. it protects the conversations that the president has with advisors and must be asserted by the president, not by an individual that worked for the president. the president has an exerted executive privilege in this cage and actually the attorney general did not say he was doing this on the basis of executive privilege. he said there is a long tradition of the attorney general not discussing

conversations and if in fact the president pressured the attorney general to stop, to slow, to obstruct the investigation that raises the possibility and i want to be careful about the language. it raises the possibility of a criminal act. you can't obstruct an investigation. no privilege protects the right of silence. >> would you expect the department of justice internally to have anything to say about the attorney general refusing to answer these questions? obviously what you and congressman schiff said today, both of you phrased this carefully, if the president asked the attorney general to hinder the investigation there is a possibility that was a criminal matter would appear to not be something the attorney general could opt out of saving.

would the department of justice for the inspector generals office or internal means be able to correct that and force the attorney general? >> congress could push the attorney general and say assert executive privilege or have the president assert executive privilege or not in which case you need to answer congress' question. i don't care if you're in the cabinet. you need to answer the question. the attorney general, presumably the deputy attorney general or bob muller leading this investigation, if they felt there was cause to investigate this they in fact could question the attorney general on that issue. >> congressman jim hymes member

of the intelligence committee. appreciate your time. >> thank you. >> we'll be right back. stay with us. (avo) if you've been struggling with belly pain

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may be right for you. one last quick piece of news, jim himes suggested moments ago live if attorney general jeff sessions continues to refuse to answer the question of whether the president ever asked him to hinder the russia investigation as the attorney general refused to do today under oath, congressman hims suggested that the attorney general could be directed to answer that question by special counsel robert mueller or the deputy attorney general rod rosenstein overseeing the investigations inside the justice department. rod rosenstein was scheduled today, was announced today he will be testifying the congress about the russia investigation on december 13th. if this matter is not resolved fo