of "msnbc live." right now it's time for "am joy" with my good friend, joy reid. >> what has been shown is no collusion, no collusion. we'll see what happens. good morning and welcome to "am joy." after president trump answered that question yesterday morning we all saw what happened. trump tweeted i had to fire general flynn because he lied to the vice president and the fbi. he has plead guilty to those lies and it's a shame because his transactions during the election were lawful. at the time trump said he had him fired because he lied to

mike pence. and if it's true then according to the timeline, trump knew that flynn lied to the fbi by the time he asked then fbi director, james comey, to let the investigation go. if trump knew flynn lied to the fbi at that time it may indicate an attempt to obstruct justice. according to the court papers and sources familiar with the matter there are at least two senior members of trump's transition team that knew flynn was talking foreign policy with the russian ambassador, two people that directed flynn to contact the russians.

joining me, our panel. paul, thank you for coming back. i think we have taken over your whole weekend. >> always a pleasure to be here. >> this tweet that the lawyer said he wrote, its got interesting things. he drafted the statement, he sent it through the man that manages trump's social media, and maybe they threw that in to sound like trump. >> if the lawyer drafted this, as another lawyer, i'm embarrassed. this is an incriminating tweet. what it suggests is president trump knew there was an fbi investigation at the time that he went to comey, then director of the fbi, and said can you give him a break. that's obstruction. i think we also have to think about collusion.

even if he did not know about the fbi investigation, what he does say is that he thought that flynn was guilty, and why if he thought flynn was guilty, why would he go and say give him a break. there's a lie from the lawyer, i wrote this tweet from trump to calm trump down about flynn's plea. he spent all day friday and saturday with him trying to calm trump down. what does flynn know? we are all going to find that out because of the agreement with mueller. >> from december 22nd, through february 14th, when trump tells comey, i hope you can let this go about michael flynn. you can see the timeline when flynn starts to talk to the russian ambassador and russian officials, but about the actual sanctions that the obama

administration had levied. anything in that timeline that suggests that mike pence and all the way down the chain to donald trump knew that he was -- >> any way to get around any culpability, is to say trump never asked comey to drop the investigation into flynn. there's nothing to suggest that trump himself would not have directed or consulted with michael flynn about the sanctions and about speaking to kislyak. many former obama administration officials said katie mcfarland was calling michael flynn and telling him, please have this conversation with kislyak. she was not high enough up the food chain to make these calls and she would have been having to get the direction from trump

himself. in the court documents that mueller filed against flynn on friday, it says flynn called somebody at mar-a-lago, and it was katie. >> in part because what trump is doing is setting up a credibility contest between donald trump and james comey. we know who is going to win that credibility war. >> trump tweeted last night and this morning he tweeted, and he said i never asked him to stop investigate. after the dishonest clinton investigation -- fear not, we will get back to grateful. the idea of in retroactive, impugning the integrity of the

fbi director, what do you make of that given what he's being investigated for? >> i think trump is now thinking ahead to his defense, impeachment or a criminal case. he's trying to discredit the credibility of mueller and comey. >> let me go to you, ron, because you worked for a vice president biden, you were the chief of his staff. the idea that these people are acting on his own and nobody is acting above them, and obviously vice president elect at the time, mike pence, in december, would have been somebody senior to katie mcfarland. this is on december 29th, she wrote in an e-mail to a colleague that sanctions announced hours before the obama administration were aimed at discrediting trump's victory,

and that is what she wrote in those e-mails. is it credible to you that she could have on her own directed michael flynn to not respond to the sanctions without talking to mike pence or donald trump. >> you threw a critical thing in there, joy, which was on or with jared kushner. i think we have to focus on the role kushner played here, and obviously trump's alter ego son in light of that. the direction came from the top. whether it was at the top if it was donald trump or jared kushner, that remains to be seen. particularly in the face of the transition, as the co-president,

almost. >> what do you make of the mike pence part? he has claimed ignorance all along. we only have donald trump and the white house's world for that? >> we have a lot of evidence on the other side. remember, mike pence was not only acting as vice president-elect, and he had that role because they pushed out chris christie because chris christie opposed flynn having a role in the orbit. it was to facilitate bringing mike flynn in. pence was warned of mike flynn's problems, and obviously president obama also told president donald trump, don't fire this flynn guy. a lot of this will wind up on the vice president's doorstep, no question. >> and i need to add a little to

the mccar tpupd e-mail. a lawyer said on friday she meant only that democrats were portraying it that way. i want to play you what senator richard blumenthal of connecticut said on a show friday night about these new developments. >> we propose legislation that would stop the president of the united states from firing the special counsel, and it would shield the special counsel from any political interference which now seems increasingly threatening, not just the president was blind-sided but all of his administration, and it's a shattering moment for the trump presidency. >> you know, jennifer, it does feel like donald trump is escalating his attacks on jim comey, and doesn't feel like it's going to get easier or better by doing that for him?

>> seems to me he just learned objection of justice is a crime and it never dawned on him that he couldn't tell him to lay off flynn. i think donald trump realized perhaps in some vague way, but nevertheless, understands that he's in legal peril now. he fired the fbi director because he was investigating all of the russia ties and specifically because he was learned about what mike flynn would do. donald trump has never been loyal to anybody aside from donald trump and family members and he was so concerned about flynn and his fate, and why is that? the answer is michael flynn is the key to jared kushner and the president. we are talking about the national security adviser, and

we are talking about somebody that had not only a close relationship with the president, but a very close relationship with jared kushner. if there's somebody panicking other than trump, i suspect it should be and is jared kushner. >> the people that the trump team and their supporters would like to be panicking is the fbi, right? you now have an fbi official that was removed because this fbi official was sending anti-trump text, and jeff sessions weighed in on that. he said he also directed the fbi director to review the information available on this and other matters and promptly make necessary changes to his

management investigative teams. isn't he recused? shouldn't he be not weighing in on this? >> he has taken a view on the investigation. jeff sessions has a nerve about politicizing criminal investigations, because that's what he's doing, including saying he needs to think about a special counsel for hillary clinton and the uranium. i worked at the department of justice, and fbi agents are allowed to express political views individually to each other. it's a bad look, yes. there's no rule that is against it. the concern is that it plays into the false narrative that trump is creating about how p

politicized mueller is. >> natasha, there has been some on the right to defund the mueller investigation. >> it's something that trump has thought about, the white house has thought about filing that, and suggested that perhaps he has conflicts of interest and there was a whole big push over the summer that mueller was not fit to lead the investigation and they were going to try to undermine him. it would be difficult for any peril to come to mueller. it's a politically sensitive thing, if trump were to attempt it, there would be a huge uproar. i think we should not just focus on the conversations with

kislyak in a vacuum. for michael flynn to try and undermine that, which was extraordinary difficult for the administration to do at the time, really, it raises questions about why the trump administration, incoming trump administration was trying so hard to appease the russian government. >> if you ever seen anything like this kind of an operation of an incoming white house? >> no, and there never has been anything like this. i think the point here is that indeed at a time when the obama administration was taking tough measures against russia, this incoming administration was busy doing everything it could not to staff the government or figure out what to be done but to intervene in u.s. foreign policy and malign that. i think paul butter eluded to this, and what this tweet yesterday from trump about flynn

lying to the fbi, how did donald trump know that mike flynn lied to the fbi. sally yates says she did not tell that to the white house counsel. what was going on for months was an effort by trump to help flynn cover it up and avoid prosecution. i think the key question we need to ask today is who told donald trump mike flynn lied to the fbi? >> we get back to what did the president know and how did he know it. thank you all very much. jennifer rubin will join us against in the next hour. republicans can't wait to get started cutting medicare and social security next. stay with us. they really appreciate the military family, and it really shows. we've got auto insurance, homeowners insurance. had an accident with a vehicle,

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people are going to be very, very happy. they are going to get tremendous -- tremendous tax cuts and tax relief and that's what this country needs. one other thing, business pacs all the way down from 35 to 20, and it could be 22 when it comes out and also could be 20. we will see what ultimately comes out. >> no, the tax fight is not over. the senate tax bill that passed on partisan lines now goes back to the house where republicans will have to decide how much they want to take from the poor

in order to feed billions to their donors and corporations. now that republicans are so close to their long-standing dream to reorganize the tax code they already set their sights on part two, gutting social programs because of the massive deficits of their own tax cuts. >> the argument would be we can't cut taxes because it will drive up the deficit, and that assumes we can fix the deficit under higher taxes. you have to bring spending under control. >> joining me now, republican strategist, cadin.

he said on our show yesterday this. >> all of the fiscal responsibility groups and the management and budget and the white house will all be saying we are shocked, shocked to discover that the national debt is rising rapidly, and we must do something about it and we will take the cuts to social security, medicare and medicaid. >> as if on cue, the hill reports the tax bill will spur $25 million in cuts to medicare. how can they double down on that by cutting medicare? >> well, elections are what we are going to talk about now, and elections are about big topics and issues. that's what the general public and voters understand. the primary voters understand the small items on the left, and the democrats understand the

populism is there and free education and free health care, and that's not a critical, i'm just explaining to you, and republicans are going to pay attention to the debt, and $61,000 per person worth of debt in the country right now. these are big topics that go on when the elections come. marco rubio has been doing this long enough to understand that after the tax cuts are done and the president is going to get credit for it and the voters will see in 2018, and 2019 when they are doing their taxes, we will see the deduction double for them and will be pleased with that, and in the meantime, one of the things i have seen that is very powerful in kicking elected officials out of office is talking about messing with social security. i have seen the ads and if you look in the future, you will see

ads about republicans cutting social security, and that's a very powerful place to be. i understand what they are saying. they are setting the sights to reduce government. this tax bill doesn't initially reduce the national debt -- >> it increases it. >> $176,000 a household. that's going to be a big topic, and the tea party will breathe fire in it and in comes the carnage in the republican party again. >> i am glad you brought up the tea party. do you remember the tea party? let's take ourselves back to 2009. the tea party which started on the rant on cnbc railing against the idea of mortgage cram down, of giving what they considered to be dead beats losing their homes federal money to save their homes and it morphed into an anti-obama thing. people like marco rubio got elected to the senate as part of the tea party, and marco rubio

was a tea party wave center, and their big issue was supposedly debt. how do you expect the tea party to say anything, because they have been pretty quiet? >> i don't expect them to say anything, joy, because there's something else happening inside the american electorate right now is that culture problems are starting to get melted with the sense of economic scarce atea. donald trump has been good at blaming latinos and mexican americans as being the reason why everybody else is not getting ahead. what donald trump was sent to washington to do is to whip the cultural establishment to say straight, white, christian men get to be in charge. most people in america want to see a country where everybody

gets a chance to get ahead. we have the big and powerful companies, but we have people who are not empowered. you take away health care and medicare, you are taking away power from individual workers that make the best choices of their lives. you are putting the power back in the hands of the companies they feel are taking advantage of them. >> lets talk about the polling on the tax plan right now. it's historically unpopular. it's more unpopular than the clinton tax increase and the george herbert walker bush increase. it's the most unpopular tax plan we have seen since the reagan era, and the reason it's unpopular, this is the change in after tax income depending on how much money you have. the red side is everybody under $75,000 is going to lose money, and everybody over $75,000 is

going to stay where they are and the biggest gains will be at a million dollars. how are republicans going to survive that chart? >> they are going to survive that chart because 69% of the americans don't use itemized detucktio deductions. >> their after tax income will be lower. if that we show that chart again, in the house version of the bill, teachers lose the deduction of school supplies, which the senate realized there was a terrible idea and tried to take it off, but you will have a lot of angry teachers that will lose money and it doesn't look so good. >> i had a angry teacher ask about that, and when that happens her deductions are going to go up to $12,000 and what she is spending $6,000 on equipment.

didn't make her happier on that. at the end of the day, where this lands, it lands in 2019 before the 2020 presidential election. that's where if what they are predicting happens, that people are paying more taxes and 69% of the voters that don't use itemizing deductions. people have to look for a pay increase. >> it's interesting you are saying that, they need to sell it in the short term but they timed it to mess it up when he gets re-elected. interesting strategy. this is donald trump pulling an old salt out of the '90s to keep selling the ideas behind the tax bill. >> welfare reform. i see it. i have talked to people. i know people that work three jobs, and they live next to

somebody that doesn't work at all, and the person who has no intention of working is doing better than the person working his and her ass off and it's not going to happen. >> you know that's where trump and republicans are going, to make people not pay attention to the tax bill. what would democrats say to that? >> it's economic scarcity, and democrats will have to find to get money in the hands of people faster. there's one quick thing, graduate students in the house bill are going to end up having to pay more money because people are going to have their tuition be taxed as if it's income, and so you can see people having their tax bills go up by $2,000, $6,000, maybe $10,000 a year who never saw the money because they are trying to get a degree in a

stem field, which we say we want people to get. >> thank you guys. appreciate it. up next, inching closer to a confrontation with north korea. for singing definitely dry mouth has been a problem for me. i'm also on a lot of medications that dry my mouth. i just drank tons of water all the time. it was never enough. i wasn't sure i was going to be able to continue singing. i saw my dentist. he suggested biotene. it feels refreshing. my mouth felt more lubricated. i use biotene rinse twice a day and then i use the spray throughout the day. it actually saved my career in a way. biotene really did make a difference. [heartbeat]

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on tuesday north korea sent a chilling message about its ability to launch an attack on the united states when it fired a missile that experts say is capable of reaching targets throughout the continent of the u.s. but the u.s. was signaling to make a different approach. north korea is willing to negotiate with the united states as long as the negotiating table also includes a seat for russia. joining me now, and joining me is our panel. what do you make of the offer that pyongyang is willing to negotiate as long as russia is

involved? >> we have rank amateurs in washington and one of the most accomplished diplomats in the world, a master of chess while in washington we play checkers. in other words, russia to georgia to the baltics to everywhere, russia finds crevices. putin is a chess master. he's cassled even with regards to those who know something about chess, and beating the heck of the amateurs in washington. >> and one of the people in charge, mcmaster, who said the following at the reagan national defense forum. this is general mcmaster.

>> so has the potential of war with north korea increased since this latest launch? >> i think it's increasing every day. which means that we are in a race, really. we are in a race to be able to solve this problem. it's a race because he's getting closer and closer, and there's not much time left. >> and does that mean that washington, because they feel they are in a race to solve the problem, would be more amenable to the putin offer? >> it depends who you are talking to in washington. joy, thank you for devoting time to this, as mcmaster said, the risk of war is growing every day. i think we are closer to a war with north korea than we have been at anytime in decades. this is very serious. we are detracted by the multiple domestic crisis we have. what they launched, it's a new step, it's a monster missile that brings the entire united

states within range. you can see how serious this is. fortunately, there's signs of hope. the north koreans are jumping up and down saying they are willing to talk. the chinese tell us this and the russians tell us this and the south koreans tell us this. and informal talks between americans and north koreans, they tell us this. there may be a ray of hope. the south koreans asked the united states to suspend the joint military exercises that we do every winter starting in february and march in lieu of the olympics in seoul in february, and they passed a resolution in favor of this. there may be a ray of hope if this administration is capable of seizing on it and if we can keep the pro diplomacy policies intact in the administration, we could de-escalate the situation and freeze the north korean nuclear program. >> that's a rare hopeful note.

is there a possibility that the olympics n. thinking about it, it actually makes the whole prospect more frightening, more people, an entire international communi community vulnerable to whatever north korea would want to do, and could the pending olympics push negotiations forward? >> i don't want to discount the possibilities that joe just outlined for you, they are possibilities. what i don't see is the ability to take advantage of them or the willingness to take advantage. what i see is a president tweeting and doing quid pro quos and matching everything kim jong-un does. this vigilant ace coming up is the latest case in point. this is a very, very antagonistic, sticking our finger in kim jong-un's eye

again, and one wonders what his response will be. i don't see the kind of orchestrated effort. what i see, as i said, a bunch of people that think that this is too clever by half, joy. i think they think they are going to scare kim jong-un and pyongyang into negotiations and they are not. there's no strategy beyond that. he has to surrender. >> you know, joe, to that point, you know, you have trump continuing to be flippantly divisive of kim jong-un, so if there's not an effort under way to try to tap down tensions, and this is donald trump using the silly rocketman spear against kim jong-un on wednesday. >> small business groups across our nation, retailers,

restaurants, manufactures, grocers, contractors, support this plan. we have tremendous support for this plan, tremendous. because this massive tax cuts will be rocket fuel -- hmm -- little rocket man, rocket fuel for the american economy. he's a sick puppy. >> joe, that was supposed to be a speech about tax cuts. meanwhile the people that have to do what you talked about and negotiate something ahead of the olympics are short staffed, and there's no nominee for south korean ambassador. who is doing this negotiation? >> that's exactly right. i saw that clip while it was happening, and he can't help himself. i mean, he can't help himself.

he insults the north korean leader and has no effort to come to the negotiations. here's the real tragedy. rex tillerson, the secretary of state, decimated the state department. just this week we had two former secretaries of state unprecedented criticizing their colleague for the damage they have done, and now he, himself, may be released by a war hawk, pompeo. you see this is what larry is pointing to. you don't see the willingness to negotiate. you don't see the team of people that could handle the negotiations. if an enemy had done this to us, we would declare war on them. this is what the administration has done to the united states, put us in a dangerous situation with no hope of stopping north korea at this point unless they dramatically switch gears in the

next few months. >> to say the least. thank you very much. thank you both. >> thank you. up next, donald trump's fake news mantra is spreading around the globe. but right now, our bond is fraying. how do we get back to "us"? the y fills the gaps. and bridges our divides. donate to your local y today. because where there's a y, there's an us. only fleet enemas feature the lubricated gentle glide tip for comfortable relief in minutes. not hours. and an ez-squeeze bottle for gentle, simple, fast relief. fleet enemas. the start of fast relief.

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libyan media is now questioning the legit ma timacy new report by cnn. to discredit the report they used a tweet by the president of the united states. donald trump called cnn international a source of fake news. the video seen shows african migrants being showcased by aucti aucti aucti aucti auctioneers as property. thank you both for being here. i am going to come to you first and ask you to explain to us how

on earth this modern day slave trade is going on and how long has it been go on and how long have people known about it? >> it's something that has is s been going on around the country. i myself traveled to the other part and the people went through the same problems that we're talking about today. , no access and their future is very blurry for them. counter parts around the world.

this is the reason why you have 150,000 young people crushed this past year. since then when you had nato very little is being done starting here in africa with the leadership that we have. what you see in libya can dispel leadership in africa.

everybody is at fault. this is a migrant named victory sold into slavery in libya. >> europe is not without fault and "the new york times" had a report that europeans wanted the migration stopped, the attempted migration stopped.

europe has known about this for a while. there has been a u.n. body that put out a report. this is what's going on. so many migrants have gone into places like italy. this sentiment is inspiring around the u.s. libya, we will train the libyan coast guard which isn't a coast guard knowing that actually what's happening because libya's in such a politically difficult space is that people are being sent to libya to stay there essentially to be trafficked, exploited, raped, mutilated and tortured and that has been known for quite some time. >> if we could put the map up

of -- scituate our viewers in the spate here. so, tian, a lot of this has to do, where are many of these migrants coming from originally? where are their countries of origin? >> most of them are coming from subsaharan africa. they come from senegal down to south africa. as i told you, the issues of young people in this continent is so alarming and it's all over. it's the same problems. lack of opportunities. lack of education. lack of chances and also nontrained young people are leading them to -- some of them will be called the american dream into them into the european dream that they're chasing. they come from all across the continent. to answer your question, everywhere in subsaharan africa you met young people on the border side of morocco, some of them in italy from all across

the continent. >> lola, the idea that the libyan government could deny this exists and use the american president as an excuse, they're not alone. there's a denial of the rohingya, the myian march government makes an excuse. >> first of all, it's an absolute disgusting abuse of power. it's a like that it's fake news. it's going on. everybody else acknowledges it. it's for his own agenda. he could lead as a moral authority in this, particularly with america's own history. >> good point. legal and tian, thank you so much. coming up next, was sexual harassment in the media affecting the coverage of the 2016 campaign? and understanding the truth about trump voters. that's next.

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director comey also said that while they have no proof, we assess that it is possible that hostile actors gained access to secretary clinton's personal e-mail accounts. you were communicating on highly sensitive topics. why wasn't it more than a mistake? why wasn't it disqualifying? >> i was able to sort out a very difficult options being

presented -- >> you're talking about judgment. >> -- and it makes the decision. there are ways of talking about the drone program -- >> and you said you thought your communications -- >> that the united states alone could not do. >> right, but you said you think you're going to cheat. >> look. this is an important issue. >> after matt lauer hosted a live primetime commander in chief forum for nbc news last september during the presidential campaign, there was widespread criticism accusing lawyer of treating hillary clinton unfairly, interrupting her ad nauseam and grilling her about her e-mails while treating donald trump with kid gloves and failing to fact check his lie about opposing the iraq war. clinton was among the critics who believes lawyer's interview was sexist. this week she was asked about his firing. clinton's response, quote, every day i believe more in karma. now matt lauer did, indeed, help shape the narrative during the most contentious presidential election in recent history, as did charlie rose and certainly

mark halperin, glen thrush and bill o'reilly, men who are all on the ever expanding list of giants in the media who are facing allegations of sexual misconduct. most of these men have been fired. thrush has been suspended. though those are positive steps, given other men who are accused of this behavior have titles and are running for office, hint, hint, that begs the question, did their involvement affect the outcome. lauren duke ka, nyera hawk and jennifer, senior director -- and jennifer rubin. i'm conflating everybody's titles. i'm going to come to you first, lauren. it's great to have you with us, first of all. >> hi. >> thank you for being here. you wrote a piece saying sexual miss conduct doesn't have a

political ideology. >> i think that the -- something frightening that's happening here is we're having a lot about what aboutism in kind of comparing these men across the aisle. i wrote i feel like they're being treated like human dodge balls. you have one, we have one, too m. i think we need to think of this as women being deflated and undermined. it's not the political power that can come from certain ak skew sayings. to use the power of men being held accountable to further one's self politically or have those kind of gains will pervert the me too movement. i think we need to stick to treating each other with core respect and not red or blue. >> gretchen, i think you clearly agree with that. the question becomes does somebody's attitudes towards women, the clear disrespect that it takes to sexually harass a woman and think that a subordinate, a young up and

coming producer is prey for you? is there a connection between that and a general attitude. i want to play you sound bites. matt lauer questioning hillary clinton's stance on the iraq war. take a listen. >> i asked before for people to raise their hand if you served in iraq. can you do it again? how do you think these people feel when the person running to be their commander in chief says her vote to go to war in iraq was a mistake? >> there was a mistake. now my opponent was for the war in iraq. he says he wasn't. he supported it before it happened, he supported it as it was happening and he is on record of supporting it after it happened. i have taken responsibility for my decision. >> let me go to another -- >> he refuses to take responsibility for his support. >> let me go to -- politifact. trump saying he opposed the iraq war is false.

here's matt lauer now questioning donald trump about his war stance. >> i happened to hear hillary clinton say that i was not against the war in iraq. i was totally against the war in iraq. >> and he didn't question him about it. >> right. i remember watching that at the time. see, i think there's a couple of things at play here. i think it's also a network trying to make it look like they were also not opposed to republicans, right? >> yes. >> and being easier on trump. that was my first impression on that and being tougher on clinton because the mainstream media is accused of being more liberal, right? but also, sexism. this has been going on in both political parties. remember with sarah palin and hillary clinton? they both got horrible treatment in the media. and when you started this segment by showing all those powerful men being able to have control over the messaging we're giving to america and the world, that is so crucial to point out as you have because we need to make sure that we're showing our young girls that they can be whatever they want to be and seeing is believing.

when you don't see women in powerful positions and when you see them being interrupted like that, that sends a signal to our young people that they can't be those political figures. >> if i could just -- you mentioned sarah palin. i think it's important that you did that. people have a visceral reaction to her. her hotness, her appearance, right, was a part -- built in. >> hillary clinton's pant suits or how her apparel looks or makeup is. we never talk about that in men. it's all a form of sexism. >> jill inspired this with the "new york times" op ed she wrote on friday. it's called the men who cost clinton the election, sexual harassment and the sexism that's predicated often involve more than the harassers and the ra rased. when they're men with loud microphones, their private miss soj again any shows that it's the 2016 election.

now that we know in retrospect that some of these men were harassing women, aha, they are to blame, or is there something to this argument that their underlying attitudes may have shaped the way everyone thought about hillary clinton and donald trump? >> yeah, i think this is a moment where we all start to question our own inherent bias and how we all contributed to this pervasive culture of sexism. it's a woman and man problem. this idea of a game girl. somebody who goes along to be the cool gishl. -- girl. >> i pause to think about how i didn't question things or the casual sexist comments they were making while we were discussing serious matters. it's a spectrum of behavior that doesn't start and end with abuse. it starts with the kind of sexist behavior you're talking about and the rampant misogony and add on national security

work and a lot of it is done in isolated situations, where you're separated from your family, loyalty is considered a high priority in the job and you have -- we work with security clearances. we literally can't take our phones into certain places where we work so we can't record and have evidence of any of this bad behavior. this burden of proof that women have to bear in certain sectors is even more challenging than what we've seen for people in the media. >> jennifer rubin, as somebody who writes about national security and writes about these man issues, right, that people would not necessarily associate with a woman writer. there's a disrespect of women to a disrespect of women's bodies. is it too much to try to conflate those two things and say, wait a minute, this could actually swing an election? >> well, i don't think it's too much to conflate it and it happens also in what's not shown. if there was enough coverage of

donald trump's predatory behavior with women, which was known before "access hollywood", if there was as much coverage of that as there was of hillary clinton's e-mails, do we think the election would have come out the same? i don't. it was the willingness to ignore, to say, ah, it's just about sex, just about his private life, it doesn't have any relevance. that contributed to donald trump's normalization, which was i think the greatest sin of the media in the election. treating him like a normal person running a normal campaign and the red light should have been flashing on and they should have been investigating down to the 14-year-olds who he was ogling outside trump tower, but it wasn't. part of that is because of these misogynistic men and part of this is simply because there are not enough women in positions of authority. if you had more women at the top, it would have been less

harassment and it would have been more coverage in a more gender neutral way. >> you're getting amens here. i think about pizza gate which is a sex ring run by hillary clinton in a pizza shop allegedly. which is crazy. i think of how many people to say roy moore may be guilty of child molestation. you have to get to 14 or how many does it take? >> we're denying the reality of the way these stories were told. there was a column in "the week." the sexism of these men, the acknowledged, sexual predation of these story tellers is turbulence. i think it's like finding out that the pilots have been drunk. i think that's a lot closer to what happened. gretchen brings up over compensating for perceived violence. hillary's likability was the biggest they used to do that. mark halperin talked about the hollywood access tapes calling it a moment to be celebrated if that's all they have. i mean, these men lead an

infrastructure in which underpliunde undermining and degrading women could be carded off as locker room talk. that's all part of what we were willing to accept? and the idea that men that knew there were skeletons in their closet refused to come down hard when other skeletons were exposed is significant. hillary clinton's loss and the loss of every woman who has been pushed out of a job and made to feel intimidated in a world that this is okay. >> the idea that women have to be likeable. it is down to hillary clinton's ankles. is she the type of person to be likeable. is she scheming? all of those sort of variations on a sexist theme. >> it's like the media saying when are we going to hire back the predators? when will they do themselves? hire back all the women who have lost their jobs as a result of having the courage and the bravery or the fierceness to come forward. >> how would the narrative have been different if the women who were pushed out of the business were telling the stories of the election rather than the men who remain? >> or if we had higher women in the media making some of these

decisions. >> we can't vacuum seal off this private, disgusting predatory behavior from their full world view. the reality is their world view are informing so many cultural and political stories. >> naira, it all does look like rehashing the election. we have many to come. the question is whether or not the ways in which we talk about candidates based on their gender has changed at all and whether we've learned that lesson based on what we've seen happening to these powerful men. there is the point, too, that gretchen makes. gretchen isn't on fox anymore. bill riley isn't either. neither of most of his accusers. have we learned anything? >> this is part of the challenge with the election cycle is that politicians are ultimately accountable to voters. when people don't vote, we are not holding our representatives accountable. in a business context you have mechanisms for removing people for hr violations and even then it's a more direct chain of

command, that it takes several women, several accusations and an understanding that this person has generally been a bad person in order for them to get fired. so that threshold seems to be higher for politicians. the only -- really only solution is for women to engage, women to vote and for men who are allies to engage on what have been previously known as just women issues and should be known as cultural social issues. >> jennifer, for women to vote women don't necessarily -- women are getting the same messages that men are? the media is feeding everyone the same underlying messages. how can we decouple them about the ways you should be likeable, viable, et cetera? >> ultimately this is on the voters. there was all kinds of polling out there on roy moore, but one of the more stunning figures is that roy moore is winning overwhelmingly among white women. ladies in alabama, get your act together. this guy is not someone who you want to be elected. this is not a message you want

to send to your daughters and your sons. what are these women thinking? so, yes, i think it's on both of us, both men, both women to really think about the consequences of people that they are putting in positions of authority, what that signals to their own children and what behavior is couldn't nans. not a barrierer to great success. >> the most disappointing thing to me, i totally agree with you, is what i have seen happen over the last 16 months in this divisive nature we live in, people are putting policies ahead of human dignity, including female voters. some of the voters in alabama tell me even if you tell me 120% roy moore did that, i'll still vote for him instead of the other political party. so we need to have a big coombaya moment within our own culture and say we're going to put human dignity first,

otherwise i don't see a lot of positive outcome for our children. >> last word. >> to get back to the first comment, this has to be seen as something that can't be separated from who these men are politically. i don't care if it's al franken and roy moore. >> true. >> you can't separate a man from his values when he's making these kinds of decisions and the reality is a voight for roy moore is a vote for sexual predation. a vote for donald trump was a vote for sexual harassment. policies and character cannot be fully separated in the way politics affects our lives and we have to say no to this. >> this is great. thank you all for such a thoughtful -- >> this is a terrific panel. thank you, thank you, thank you. jennifer will join us later on. stay right there, up next the top republican strategists who have been sounding the alarm about donald trump. steve schmidt will be here when we come back. they really appreciate the military family, and it really shows. we've got auto insurance, homeowners insurance. had an accident with a vehicle,

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the former head of john mccain's 2008 campaign, steve schmidt, has not been shy about sharing his thoughts on the republican tax bill. just before it passed early saturday morning schmidt wrote every republican member who has spoken passionately about out of control spending or the importance of return to the regular order who votes for this appalling tax bill was simply conning the american people. steve schmidt joins me now. that regular order comment leads me to the question i want to ask you. i'm going to hold off on that. i cannot resist reading you some quotes from the republican party back in 2009 and 2010 about the

passage of the affordable care act. this is paul ryan. i don't think we should pass bills we haven't read that we don't know what they cost. that's paul ryan. we shouldn't rush this thing through just to rush it through for some artificial deadline. let's get this thing done right. one more, congress and the white house have focused their public efforts on platitudes and press conferences while the substances and details have remained behind closed doors. meanwhile, what we saw overnight were handwritten changes. we're going to put them up on the screen being penned in. democrats who had been given like maybe an hour or two to read a 500 plus page bill and 6,000 lobbyists approximately working on the bill. does the republican party -- are they aware of this hypocrisy or do they just not care? >> well, a couple of things. good morning, joy. when you have a situation where democratic united states senators say the two from the state of california with a population of 38 million people, when they are unable to access the language of the legislation

for the purposes of representing those 38 million people and the way that they get to see the language is by having it handed to them by a lobbyist who's working with the republican leadership to write the bill, what that means is the united states senate, which used to be called the world's greatest deliberative body, that it's just gone completely off the rails and i'm somebody who wants to see a fundamental reformation of the american tax code. i love the idea of cutting taxes. i love the idea of cutting top marginal rates. it makes my heart flutter and makes me go wobbly in the knees. this is not that. this does nothing to lift the wages of working class americans and that's the number one economic problem we have in the country. it adds a trillion and a half dollars to the debt. it is a massive corporate tax break paid for by the middle class of the country. it is as irresponsible and

reckless a piece of legislation done as ship shoddedly as you can possibly conceive of. real disservice to the american people here. i think there will be a big consequence to republicans in november of 2018 because, remember, what they're hailing as a victory has a 25% approval level with the actual human beings in the country who will vote. >> yeah. and, you know, you mentioned in your excoriation of the bill the idea that these are the same people who were talking about return to regular order. you worked for john mccain in 2008. >> yeah. >> he was the main person being demanded that regular order be returned. what do you make of the fact that he turned around, he and other people who have been critical of the process turned a around and voted for this bill. >> joy, you're going to have to go ask those senators what the reason is. it's inexplicable to me if you take what they say at face value

here. it wasn't in the regular order. there was no emergency for it to pass that evening and, once again, just like in the health care bill that they voted earlier, they don't have the final costs. they don't know particularly what it's going to do. it just shows the complete and total collapse of rigor around the policy making process in this country. this is not how we ought to be doing multi-trillion dollar legislation that affects 100 million american people. it's just not. >> beyond the tax bill there's so much going on at the same time. you also have the question, a lot of people have begun to question quite frankly donald trump's stability. you've started to hear murmurs off the record from republicans and you've heard from people like bob corker. even beyond whether he's completely stable, there are questions what he's doing about the country. this is john mccain talking about donald trump back in october. we have to fight against

propaganda, crack pot conspiracy theories. we have to remind our sons and daughters that how we became -- that we became the most powerful nation on earth by tearing down walls, not building them. jeff flake gave a pretty dramatic exit speech along the same lines, yet we haven't seen republicans do much or take action. they seem to fall in line behind donald trump no matter what he does. explain to people who do not understand why that is why that is in your view. >> well, joy, look, here's what i think is that you have 100% of the democrats, 60 to 65% of independents and roughly, and i'm talking about voters, not elected officials, 20 to 25% of the republican party that just stands in absolute opposition to this president, to his divisions, his malfeasance, his incompetence and we look at this week, the racial insult in front of 90-year-old united states marine veterans, combat

veterans, the navajo code talkers, we look at the reality this week, his tweeting of al qaeda propaganda, the neonazi far right military group which earned him the condemnation of parliamentarians of both parties in the united kingdom. we have the situation where the american president cannot set foot in great britain for fear of permanently damaging the special relationship. you want to talk about a danger to the national security of this country, the estrangement from our closest ally, certainly you can't get much higher than that, and of course we have an escalating nuclear crisis on the korean peninsula with a president that when you just look at his actions from a layman's perspective seems to be increasingly unstable and the republican party has discarded every principle that it's held dear on matters of policy. it has gotten in line behind a

president who degrades his office, who divides the american people. they're complicit in it with their silence and i think that there is one question on the ballot in november of 2018, and it's do you want to put a check on president donald trump? and i think that the answer to that question in the overwhelming majority of the american people is yes and there's going to be a coalition of people, i suspect, that don't agree with each other on very many policies but agree 100% with each other on their concept of fidelity to the constitution, to the rule of law, to what makes this country a very special place. >> steve schmidt, you never m s mince words. great to talk to you. thank you for being here. >> thank you, joy. my pleasure. up next, how republicans are trying to defend their terrible, horrible, no good very bad tax plan.

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"saturday night live" returned last night with donald trump in a modern day version of a christmas carol. more "am joy" after this. >> i'm michael flynn, the ghost

of witness flipped. mr. president, i came to warn you, it's time for you to come clean for the good of the country. >> what the good of the -- >> the good of the country. >> the gobble con con. >> who are you? >> merry christmas! [ cheers and applause ] >> 'tis i, hillary rodham clinton. you have no idea how long i've wanted to say this. lock him up! nice man cave! nacho? [ train whistle blows ] what?! -stop it! -mm-hmm. we've been saving a lot of money ever since we switched to progressive. this bar is legit. and now we get an even bigger discount from bundling home and auto. i can get used to this. it might take a minute. -swing and a miss! -slam dunk! touchdown! together: sports!

>> the trump is paying and rise. what the reaction was of the american people and what we don't talk about, chuck, this isn't a book about cory lewandowski or dave boskey, all the ancillary players aren't mentioned, of course. the person who was the most important factor in the presidential election is the president of the united states. that's what we write about. >> i understand that. he didn't even make acknowledgements. you listed every other person in the campaign in the acknowledgment. judging from the new book by cory lewandowski and david baasy titled "let trump be trump"

talked about michael flynn. joining me is e.j. dionne. let me let you listen to cory lewandowski with chuck on "meet the press." in this buy tite he's saying he didn't know what don jr. and jared kushner were up to in the campaign. >> is it possible that donald trump jr. and jared kushner would do things without telling you about it? >> of course, chuck. that happens on every campaign. you know what i learned when i went on the campaign trail and went to a campaign. donald trump said you need to do this. i know that didn't come from the candidate. dave bossy said it has to be run this way. i called dave, did you say this? of course not. people take liberties all the time and do things that aren't either told to the campaign manager or think that it's in the best interests of either themselves or the campaign. >> there's liberties in planning events without telling the boss and there's negotiating foreign policy with russia. does that make any sense to you, what you just heard? >> well, i think a year and a

half ago cory lewandowski would want to tell us he was in the loop on everything and a decisive figure. as this story advances i suspect he's not going to want to be in the loop on anything. i think it was kind of -- you know, when you think about who was an ancillary figure in the campaign, it was far more cory lewandowski who left the campaign than michael flynn who we all remember led the republican national convention in cries of lock her up. so i don't expect anything from cory lewandowski on the russian investigation or on collusion. that's not in his interests and i don't think he's going to go against his own interests. >> absolutely. let's listen to david baasy, too, jennifer. his main claim to fame is he's a long standing member of the get clinton club. he was also associated with the campaign. here he is denying that there were -- that he had any campaign -- or that there were any campaign contacts with the russians. >> well, i do believe that he

will incriminate others in the administration otherwise there was no reason for bob mueller to give mike flynn this kind of a deal where even in a factual basis you can see there are other crimes that could have been charged. whether that will lead ultimately to the president i simply don't know. >> that was adam schiff. he was saying he thinks michael flynn will incriminate other people. here's david baasy. >> can you definitively say there were no russian contacts between the campaign? i've talked to cory lewandowski about this 100 times. i have not interviewed you. was there a single russian interaction that you ever witnessed? >> not even one. this investigation has been going on for a long time. i just don't put out there that there's a sin till la of evidence that shows russian collusion. this president, then the candidate, that was not part of the campaign. i never saw a russian. i never saw a russian at trump tower. i was never on an e-mail about one. >> there are russians who live

in trump tower. not one russian, not one. >> well, first of all, we all saw public collusion by donald trump trying to encourage the russians to release hillary clinton's e-mails. by the time we get done with this no one is going to remember that donald jr. was on the campaign. this is going to be denial. the rats are leaving the ship. no one knew anything about anything. no one knew anything and at some point, you know what, it doesn't matter at all because robert mueller marches on. he's going to get the facts. he's going to get the evidence and so these guys can say whatever they want to get to an interview with chuck todd, but ultimately the special prosecutor is going to figure out what happened. >> that's right. >> could i just say that one of these days republicans in congress will want to forget that donald trump was even their candidate. >> who was he? we don't know who that is. >> okay. here is dianne feinstein, the senator from california talking about the question of obstruction of justice. this is interesting because it's a question of who's

investigating that. >> the judiciary committee has an investigation going as well and it involves obstruction of justice, and i think what we're beginning to see is the putting together of a case of obstruction of justice. >> you know, jamall, i think a lot of democrats have come to understand that even if the senate judiciary and the house -- the house isn't, you know, 100% as aggressive, if they were coming up with something that is a finding of obstruction, that doesn't mean politically anything is going to happen to donald trump. have democrats caught up with the notion that the only way there will be accountability is for the democrats to control one or both houses of congress? are they going to tell voters that at some point? >> yeah, i think that's probably right. democrats have got to get to the majority in the house or senate, probably the house because you have to start impeachment proceedings in the house in order to get to the senate. you may even be able to find

enough republicans in the bob corker, flake, you know, john mccain wing of the party that are willing to come out in favor of this. here's what we know when we pull back. we know there is a quit which is that the russians went out and tried to help donald trump ruin the election. we know there is a quo. donald trump is doing everything he can to dismantle u.s. leadership around the world. the question is where is the pro in the quid pro quo. that is where flynn is. he can tie these things together, but we know donald trump -- vladimir putin was trying to find somebody to help him, he couldn't find a better accomplice than donald trump. >> more tax cuts in cooperation for investigating russia investigation. this is mitch mcconnell who is a very canny individual. he held an entire supreme court seat for donald trump to be able to fill it. he's muscled through this tax hike on the middle class to give more tax breaks to the wealthy

and is nonplussed when democrats couldn't read it. on roy moore and the question whether moore should be in the senate, here is mitch mcconnell's answer. >> do you believe that judge moore should be in the senate? >> i'm going to let the people of alabama make the call. this election has been going on a long time. there's been a lot of discussion about it. they're going to make the decision a week from tuesday. >> the one thing he doesn't want to have control over. he doesn't care, i guess. >> well, i think that we should by now realize that you can't really trust what a republican leader says one week because if the political circumstance changes, they're going to say something else another week. and clearly enough republicans down in alabama are rather astonishingly united around roy moore that mitch mcconnell doesn't want to fight them. he also looked at that narrow majority on the tax bill and said better somebody who faces

these accusations than a democrat in the seat. so he's come to agree with many of those alabama republicans it looks like. he just doesn't want to get in that, but i doubt he wants doug jones elected. >> absolutely. part of that, you know, jennifer may be because mitch mcconnell and other republicans are looking at the polls not only of the overall electorate but alabama republicans. only 17% believe the allegations against roy moore. only 17% of republicans. with numbers like that, why shouldn't national republicans just go ahead and throw their arms around the guy? >> right. you know, maybe do the right thing, wild ideas like that, morality, children, nah, forget that. what i think is significant here is do not believe for a moment that if roy moore is elected those senate republicans will move to kick him out. there is no way in heck they're going to do that. if they won't speak up now, after he's elected by the people

of alabama and after he starts voting in favor of the tax bill, do you think these guys are going to have the nerve to kick him out? i don't. >> yeah. jamall, i wonder if republicans will ultimately be made to pay a price for having roy moore in their presence if they wins? are democrats capable of pulling that off? >> democrats will hang roy moore around every single republican candidate's neck going into the 2018 elections. you have a president of the united states that chuck todd kind of went into this week, he's going to campaign for roy moore not in alabama, in northern florida. he can be in a media market to touch mobile. a president who has been accused of sexual abuse and a candidate who's been accused of child molestation and they're going to be together virtually on the campaign trail. this is one of the lowest points in republican politics. democrats are going to have to take advantage of it. >> e.j., aren't republicans who are impervious, any charges of

hypocrisy, that is their one talent. they don't care that donald trump had been accused, the roy moore thing. they start yelling about what about al franken, even if they're not the same kind of situation. won't they just point at democrats and say, we don't care? >> that's exactly what they're doing, but i think you touched on something earlier in the show that's very important. there are some republican women and many republican independents down in alabama who are quite conservative but their conservatism says to them what roy moore did was really wrong and so everybody talks about it in a vote, in a race like this, roy moore, people not wanting to admit that they're supporting him to a pollster. there could be a hidden vote the other way, very conservative women and some men saying i really can't admit i'm voting for a democrat but i actually don't want roy moore in the senate. i think it's going to be very interesting to see if that side

of the hidden vote emerges. >> god, e.j., i hope you're right. >> we shall see. thank you very much to a great panel. e.j. dionne, jennifer rubin, jamall simmons, have a great sunday. >> good to be with you. next, a reality check on why donald trump's voters put him in the white house. nside the box. it's what's inside the person who opens it. ♪ give ancestrydna, the only dna test that can trace your origins to over 150 ethnic regions- and open up a world of possibilities. ♪ save 30% for the holidays at ancestrydna.com

one long, long year since donald trump was elected the media still clings to a favored narrative about his voters. the idea that the majority of voters who did not vote for donald trump have had to swallow the bitter pill of his presidency because it's a cure for the economic anxieties of those who did. but this week in an illuminating analysis for the nation writer adam server offers an ultimate explanation for what drives their undying devotion to trump. quote, they will not change their minds because this is what they always wanted, a president who embodies the rage they feel towards those they hate and fear while reassuring them that that rage is nothing to be ashamed of. adam is the senior editor for "the atlantic" is here. great to talk with you. >> thanks for having me. >> i've read it twice.

it's great. i recommend everybody read it. one of the things that is so impactful about it is that you completely explode some myths that i thought people knew were myths. one is the idea that the people who voted for donald trump were doing it because they were poor or because they were struggling economically. there'seconomically. there is a chart that shows trump's vote by income. he did better among people who make $50,000 a year and up. why do you suppose the media persists in the narrative that it was economic want that produced trumpism? >> i think the piece argued at length that because of the nature of racism in the united states people don't really want to acknowledge the extent of it. it's not good personally. you don't want tothink of your family members or friends or lovers as racist and also for the press it is not a lot of commercial incentive to insult your readers or viewers or listeners. it's better to sort of avoid it through euphemism or by sort of

muddling the issue. >> yet you know you look at donald trump's support from white voters. it's identical to the support that mitt romney got. they both got 59% of the white vote. romney got one point more. the public research institute research did this analysis where they talked to white working-class voters during campaign and said three factors stood out as predictors of how white working class people would vote. the second factor was immigration. 54% of white working class americans said investing in college education is a risky gamble. financially troubled voters in the working class were more likely to choose clinton over trump. what does it say about us that we can't accept those facts? >> trump did better than mitt romney classwise. same percentage of the white vote but did better among white working class. the issue i'm arguing is that

you can't look at just economic suffering as the cause of that. you have to look at the lens through which people understand their suffering and challenges because people of color, their wealth was wiped out by the housing crisis. you didn't see a similar political reaction among people of color who were struggling. they didn't vote for trump at all or barely did so. and so it is not -- economic suffering isn't sufficient. and i think again there is just a tremendous culture and political incentive to avoid saying what this is and that's because white people are so majority in this country. you really don't want -- it is bad business and bad politics to insult the majority. >> a couple more data points found that about seven in ten likely voters, 72% said society in our way of life have changed for the worst since the 50s. john sides said in the

"washington post" there is such resentment behind trumpism. trump did particularly well among whites who thought whites were losing out on jobs to minorities and who thought it was important to change laws that were unfair to white people. is it then -- is it just as simple as saying trumpism is racism or is it more complicated than that? >> i think there is a substantial appeal of trumpism is racism. the issue is not that people aren't suffering or not struggling. the issue is when you think of why you're suffering and struggling who do you blame for it? and for the people who voted for trump the narrative he was telling that the people to blame were these religious and ethnic minorities that he was going to punish i don't think you can avoid the conclusion that that was a substantial part of it. >> did he take advantage of something already happening or did he create in people these

feelings? >> it definitely preceded trump. trump is the result of social trends in part due to almost two decades of the war on terrorism, the election of barack obama and a republican party that has just become more and more white and refused efforts by people within the party to diversify its base. trump is a symptom of political trends. he's not the creator of those political trends. he took advantage of them and they helped him win the presiden presidency. >> are you pessimistic that those cannot be reversed. if they can be who can possibly do it or help do it? >> i'm not a political consultant. i don't know what could possibly change things in terms of like a political figure or particular type of campaign, but in the past things have changed. things can get better. this type of politics isn't

invincible. it is just a matter of who is going to show that. >> and i guess i have to ask how much of this was accelerated by barack obama, his presence in the white house for eight years? >> i think social science is pretty clear that barack obama had kind of a radicalizing effect on a lot of white people in america. there is a book by political scientist michael tesler and what it found was that people's views on public policy issues that weren't previously racialized associated race or views on race became racialized during obama's presidency. that absolutely colored the reaction to donald trump. >> indeed. thank you so much. your piece is terrific. i hope everyone will check it out. as master sergeant. they really appreciate the military family, and it really shows. we've got auto insurance, homeowners insurance. had an accident with a vehicle,

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to? >> we will have to step away from the preps daens. director mueller seems to be closing in. >> the russia probe, a number of new and different voices on where it is leading, what the charges might be. inside the trump campaign, a new book reveals among other things candidate trump's favorite meals and who steamed wrinkles from his suits. and new warning the white house national security chief says potential for war with north korea is increasing every day. reaction ahead. but at this hour we expect to hear from jared kushner. organizers are telling nbc he could be asked about michael flynn who pled guilty in the special counsel's russia investigation. we are monitoring that for you. new reaction from congressional investigators in the after math of flynn's plea deal. >> we now know that director mueller is i