alternative other than to sue in order to vindicate my reputation. >> her lawsuit could shine the light on other allegations. trump's lawyers say the case should wait until he leaves office. and her lawyers are invoking a clinton era precedent that they say allows you to sue the president. that does it for our show. "hardball" starts now. mueller mulls the money. let's play hardball. good evening, i'm chris matthews in new york. it looks like special counsel robert mueller is following the money in his investigation between links between president donald trump and russia. now two american news outlets are reporting that mueller has

subpoenaed record from the german banking. it issued a subpoena to germany's largest lenders four weeks ago forcing to submit documents between its relationship with trump and his family. in a similar report with reuters a u.s. official says one reason for the subpoenas was to find out if the bank may have sold some mortgages or other loans to some russian banks. jay sekulow denied these reports saying no subpoena has been received. here's press secretary sarah huckabee-sanders. >> we know that it hasn't happened up until this point and that the reports out were totally false. and again, the media got ahead of their skis a little bit on pushing and driving that story

that wasn't true. >> the bank neither confirmed or denied the allegation. well, the president has loans from the bank worth hundreds of million, and so does his son-in-law jared kushner. as "the washington post" reported in june, quote one month before election day jared kushner's real estate company finalized a $280 million loan. this all comes after the president said in july any investigation into his finances would cross a red line if it's unrelated to russia. >> if mueller was looking at your finances and your family's finances up related to russia, is that a red line? >> i would say yes. >> if he was outside that lane, would that mean he'd have to go? >> no, i think that's a violation. >> wow. i'm joined my stephanie ruhle. and democratic congressman from

texas sits on the house intel committee. stephanie, set this up for me. tell me what they would be looking for if they were going to the bank. >> i spent eight years of my career working with deutshe bank. it's had a long-standing relationship, and that's a bank that's not afraid to take a lot of risk. it was fined earlier this year for doing business they shouldn't have, $6 million. so just put that aside. the former chairman was on the board of the bank of cyprus. who put him on that board, now secretary of commerce wilbur ross. it sold their russian business to a russian oligarch with close ties to putin. and in the case against paul

manafort allegedly laundered money through cyprus banks. we know the bank is a lender to president trump through a private bank. all these things could be true and they might not be related. but with all of that smoke there's questions what could be there. could they have passed those loans onto veb bank? we don't know it, and that could be my robert mueller is investigating. >> could it mean the real loan is from russia? >> it could be. if i were robert mueller issuing a subpoena, that's what i would want to know. did they take that loan and reassign it to veb bank, which they would have the right to do. >> so let's talk about this whole question whether donald trump, the president of the united states, the one being investigated basically here, is he allowed to say oh, no you

can't look at my private matter, anything to do with my private family or certainly my son-in-law. you can't do that. what would that mean when he says you can't do that? >> well, it's completely meaningless. he doesn't have the right to stop the investigation, saying you can't go here. but he has the right to free speech just like everybody else. >> what about this thing that says according to the special council mandate -- let's look at that right now. mueller can pursue quote, any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation. and today the president was solen when asked if mueller's recent subpoena had crossed his red line. >> mr. president, that mueller crossed a red line with deutshe bank? >> there he is. he doesn't want to talk about red lines today, but the fact is as you were implying there, the

special counsel, mr. mueller, has complete mandate. in fact anything that has arisen during the investigation to deal with anything criminal or does arise as they continue to go through the papers. >> well, it has to directly arise. but keep in mind, first of all, we don't know that a subpoena has been issued. i don't know -- the bank's not allowed to inform anyone of a grand jury subpoena under the law that was passed during the sages and loan era. number two, there's a federal statute that criminalizes accepting aid from a foreign country in a political campaign. if mueller is looking at that, that's well within his mandate. so it's just utter speculation at this point. i don't think trump even as a factual matter has the position to say you've gone beyond your mandate. >> congressman, thank you for coming on. when you look at this case, do

you look at narrowly with regard to the russian venture here, or do you look it as is donald trump a crook? >> well, the scope of the investigation is fairly broad. it does center mostly around the collusion issues but also on masking, for example, the leaks. so there's four different prongs. my sense, though, is that robert mueller's investigation is number one on a faster pace, and number two, broader than even the house investigation at least. and this is a very important and interesting development because we do know the bank has been a lender for donald trump over the years on different projects. and getting these bank statements and perhaps the lending documents from back then will give robert mueller a much clearer understanding of exactly who was involved in these real estate projects. so it's no surprise that president trump is nervous about the special counsel looking into all this. >> are you looking at -- go

ahead. let me go back to you, steph. >> i will i want to point out it wouldn't be the first request. they asked them to provide these documents back in the spring, but they didn't comply. >> so you're assaying if they did get the documents, they got them by subpoena? >> correct. >> couldn't it be somehow the russian deals, somehow they influenced the bank to give his family the big loan? because trump seems to live a lot of his life on loan. everything seems to be debt with him. he lives very well when he's so-called broke. even when he's absolutely in the red, he still lives like donald trump. so he's very comfortable borrowing lots of money. but who's giving him the money? like the 666 investment, why is it possible to get so much money from germany, unless there's something in russia saying help him out, we're helping you out?

>> well, deutshe's private bank is massive mchb president trump would be in a position he could offer as collateral hard assets. buildings, golf courses, houses, boats. and we know he has a lot of hard assets. so they can lend him the cash and reinvest it, and they can put up against it his hard assets. they don't care, they'll seize his properties. that works for the private bank. >> well, trump's praurmts in the united states have reportedly been a magnet for russian money as donald trump, jr. said, quote, russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets. we see a lot of money pouring in from russia. for example, reuters investigation of trump's south florida buildings at least 63 individual russian passports or addresses have bought at least

$ $98 million worth of property. we also know russian oligarchs sponsored trump's miss universe pageant. and trump signed a letter of intent in october 2015 to build a trump world tower in moskow. congressman, what do you make of all this? this russia, russia, russia. i do it every night. i've never had an american politician so engaged with russia. we talked about it yesterday in the republican platform. why is donald trump stopping everything, running over to the republican platform committee and saying you got to do what putin wants with regards to ukraine? why? is he engaged with russia as if he's the lobbyist for russia? >> well, you're right, chris. there have been a lot of russian oligarchs who have been involved with the president a long time. and the one of the main questions is do these folks have

any leverage over the president that is influencing and has influenced the decisions that he makes as president of the united states or even when he say a capp candidate? and hopefully bob mueller has his tax returns, his bank statement now where and lending documents from different properties, and we can get a clearer sense -- a clear answer to those questions. >> does he have his tax returns, going back, congressman? >> i have do suspect by now if i was betting, i would say yes, he should. >> so would he have them based upon your understanding of the case? >> absolutely. they probably had them before mueller took over. it would be the first thing a competent prosecutor would do. keep in mind the very thing the dprszman was talking about, the prior relationship with russia, that's clearly relevant to mueller. if you're looking at whether or not there was improper collusion during the campaign one of the

things mueller is allowed to do is say i want to look this guy's whole history with regards to russia. that's what he's doing. >> why would trump besides the grander of his host with russia to avoid a second cold war. i wish that was the reason i could be sure of. what other reason would he have for wanting to be so cozy with so many russians? >> and that's the $8 billion question. and that's why so many reputable businesses never do business with russia. the found fr of black stone, the advisor to president trump's counsel, i interviewed him three years ago because people were starting to get involved with with russia again. and he said to me we're absolutely not investing there. why? because we cannot trust the rule of law. many don't do businesses there for that reason. you do business with russia, they come aknocking if they don't get the returns they want. but if you're in president

trump's position, a guy who was bankrupt at least four times, you don't have a lot of lending options. you may have to go loan shark style to russia, and here you are lo and behold as president they're going to remind you, hey, mr. trump, you owe us. >> i hear when you owe them money, they kill you. does that sound too outrageous? >> it's not outrageous. >> according to the written statement of russian lawyer natalia, donald trump, jr. actively solicited dirt. he actively asked for dirt on hillary clinton. think about it, asked her quote, whether she had evidence of illegal donation tuesday the clinton foundation. the lawyer told told the committee she didn't have any such evidence. let me go back to congressman castro. what do you make of the fact we now know according to this new report the trump family was actually over there pedaling for dirt on hillary in exchange for

what we don't know. except the russians were helping him get elected and his son was trying to actively get dirt from the russians. >> yeah, it's not a surprise even though they denied it during the campaign. and since those denials there have been report after report about different meetings, phone conversations and so forth. and also in the e-mails that donald junior acknowledges being part of, he alludes to that, basically wanting information that will cripple hillary clinton's campaign. so, yes, when people ask the question was there collusion, the answer is yes, there was collusion. the second question to that, how effective was that collusion. but to the question of collusion, yes, there was. >> are you going to nail trump? >> our investigation is still going on. but i also think that bob mueller is ahead of both the house and the senate, and i feel

like this thing is moving very quickly. >> thank yous very much. stephanie ruhle. coming up, just call roy moore mr. republican. the party falling align the accused child molester. the rnc is throwing money back into the race right now while republicans are toning down their criticism. isn't that sweet? it begs the question, what does the grandole party think of roy moore the man. plus trump will recognize jerusalem as the capitol and plans to move the embassy there. so why is trump doing it? and according to a new report mike pence was contemplating a coupe in the days following the "access hollywood" bombshell and was ready to take trump's spot at the top of the ticket. this is "hardball ". to work.

there's early child marriage, there's war and conflict. at the malala fund we help girls stay in school. there are some really amazing people around the world doing incredible work. the malala fund invests in education champions who work in the community and do advocacy and pave the way so that girls can actually go to school. to have the expertise of our financial partner, citi, guiding us is very important. the fact that citi is in countries where girls are vulnerable ensures that we are able to get funds to the people that we're working with and expand with great confidence. when girls go to school we're going to maximize their talents. we could have a solution for climate change in that girl. that girl could be the next nobel peace prize winner.

the international olympic committee today banned russia from competing in the 2018 winter games in pyeongchang saek. the sweeping punishment was handed down in response to widespread doping. and that's believed to be state sponsored. russian government officials will be barred from even attending the 2018 games, and any athletes that receive special permission to compete will have to do so while wearing a neutral uniform. and the russian anthem will not be played. a top member of the country's legislator said, quote, we have nothing to apologize for and neither do our athletes. well, we'll be right back. highest in investor satisfaction with full service brokerage firms... again. and online equity trades are only $4.95... i mean you can't have low cost and be full service. it's impossible. it's like having your cake and eating it too. ask your broker if they offer award-winning full service and low costs. how am i going to explain this? if you don't like their answer, ask again at schwab.

schwab, a modern approach to wealth management. ♪...nausea, heartburn,♪ indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea!♪ nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea!♪ here's pepto bismol! ah. ♪nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea!♪ to find smarter solutions. to offer more precise and less invasive treatment options than before. like advanced genomic testing and immunotherapy. see how we're fighting to outsmart cancer at cancercenter.com/outsmart

do very well. we don't want to have a liberal democrat in alabama, believe me. we want strong borders. we want stopping crime. we want to have the things that we represent, and we certainly don't want to have a liberal democrat that's controlled by

nancy pelosi and controlled by chuck schumer. we don't want to have that for alabama. >> welcome back to hardball. according to nbc, quote, the republican national committee which had pull-on out of the state resumed supporting moore yesterday. so money is flowing down there. and some republican centers seem to be softening up on their opposition to him. senator orrin hatch said trump had no choice to endorse moore. hatch added many of the things he allegedly did were decades of ago. anyway, the strategy for the moore campaign, deny any wrongdoing, attack the establishment and the mainstream media and focal on social issues, especially abortion. listen to how moore's spokeswoman began her interview on cnn today with a pregnant anchor woman. >> it is nice to have you on. thank you for joining us. and let me get right to it.

>> and congratulations on your unborn child. that's the reason why i came down as a volunteer to speak to judge roy moore, because he'll stand for rights for babies like yours in the womb, where his opponent supports killing them. >> he says, however, he backs alabama's law that restricts late term abortions with exceptions to the woman's health. a former advisor to senator rand paul's campaign. i don't want where to start with you two because you're both pretty good on this thing. so why don't i start with elise. republicans don't fall in love, they fall in line. it looks like they're not falling in love. i mean trump won't even go down there and be seen with this guy, roy moore, but he's endorsing him. explain the culture that leads him to do that. >> well, president trump is going to have a rally in pensacola, florida, right there on the border basically.

>> are they going to be seen with each other or not? i don't think. >>. >> probably not. but you see, though, the campaign's emphasis on abortion as the closing argument just shows how this one issue will likely prove decisive in this race. i grew up southern baptist, and i remember at church one sunday we saw large pictures on the screen of a partial birth abortion. this is something very important to southern evangelicals, and it is the only closing argument that they have. >> michael, i agree. when you say to a person in that culture and maybe my culture, too, are you going to support abortion or are you going to forgive a fellow christian who may have been swayed odone something wrong, because then you're in the role of a forgiver than someone who supports abortion? >> that's the false choice that's being presented to the voters of alabama now. because they're asking you to

focus on that child in the womb, but oh, don't worry if that child is sexually abused when their 13, 14, 15-year-old with a person like roy moore. if that's where the republican party wants to place himself, then have at it. while this may play in alabama, it's not going to necessarily play elsewhere in the country where the state may not be as deep red and where the opportunities we could gain are going to be lost because of this sort of maniacal desire to get one vote in the united states senate. that at the end of the day, chris, probably won't make that much difference. >> let's go back to elise. i learned the evils of my ways. anyways, it seems to me the fact that a suburban libitarian, and there's a lot of them out there, the grand ole pedophiles, the gop, the democrats are not going to let your party off on this. they're going to tie roy moore

around every suburban person. every serbern republican is going to have carry this guy, this pedophile on their shoulders through next november. >> and think about how roy moore hasn't even been speaking publicly. he's barely opening his mouth at these campaign events. he's not doing interviews with serious journalists, and not participating in a debate against doug jones. he has not been opening his mouth, and he's still in this much trouble. and the national party is still embarrassed about him. it shows just how roy moore further helps just isolate the republican party and make it a regional party. >> do you buy roy moore's denials of all these cases? >> i think the women are completely credible, and i believe the women no question. >> michael, let me ask you -- it's like a big wheel has changed. in the last two weeks the whole idea of basically expelling him

on entry into the senate if he were elected, seems to have gone. because if the people down there vote for him, knowing all these charges, even if they don't believe them, knowing them all, it seems very hard to dump him from the senate from acts committed 30, 40 years ago. it doesn't seem to make sense politically? >> i think you're right, chris. and this phony approach out there a couple of weeks go we won't seat him, we're going to have ethics committee go after him and all that, all that was really kind of noise in the moment. because i think where the party is where the majority leader said yesterday. that is we'll wait to see what the people of alabama will do. okay, and then what? then the what is we do nothing. we will welcome roy moore to the united states senate, work with him and call him a colleague. and as elise just pointed out, every republican whose name will be on the ballt next year, will

vooto account to those voters in those states where they stood on the question of roy moore and what that means for the country. and i think that's an awful place for the party to put himself. for one man, for one vote it makes no sense to me. >> mit romney tweeted yesterday roy moore would be a stain on the gop and on the nation. lead corfman and others are courageous heroes. white house spokesperson sarah huckabee-sanders was asked about the president's endorsement today. let's watch her. >> is it the white house's position then formally here, that it is worse to have a democratic in that senate seat than someone accused of sexually accused of abusing a teen girl? >> look, i think those are different things in terms of we aren't going to be the ones to

determine that process. that's for the people of alabama to determine what those things come down on. he does want people that support his agenda. he's not going to obviously support a democrat. >> in an unusual way she's quite good at this game. i don't like the game. meanwhile senator jeff flake who has previously urged republicans not to support roy moore took it step further. he wrote, country over party. jeff flake also said today the president's wrong to back moore. but, elise, another guy on his way out the door has a lot of freedoms. he's walking out the door with a lot of guts, i guess. but it's not the same as staying and fight frg what you say. it isn't the same. >> and he sat alongside president trump. he was photographed with donald trump. he was at a lunch where roy moore was top off the conversation. i wish he had vocally said his

opposition there. i don't know that necessarily cutting a check for doug jones is really going to actually be helpful to doug jones. >> did the photo-op precede the check writing? >> he tweeted it after the photo-op. >> i think it's called cya. you and i think a lot alike. it's frightening. up next, the administration's on the verge of recognizing jerusalem as the capitol of israel. this is hardball, where the action is.

this is electricity. ♪ this is a power plant. this is tim barckholtz. that's me! this is something he is researching at exxonmobil: using fuel cells to capture carbon emissions at power plants. this is the potential. reducing co2 emissions by up to 90%... while also producing more power. this could be big. energy lives here. weraise their voice to sayo lethat this presidentle is unfit for office and needs to go. i love it! yes! yes! [ chuckles ] there it is -- over there! mcminnville, tennessee... poughkeepsie, new york... milton, indiana... chattahoochee, florida... wow... we're looking at the whole country.

not just the coasts. even in utah, we're starting to realize trump has been doing things that are against our laws. i definitely worry about war. north korea. i don't want that guy's hand near the bomb. sick to my stomach. he's not the kind of person that should be running our country. the things that he does has consequences. is this going to be here for my grandchildren? he's not being held accountable. if we have the vote, like we have for election day, they will impeach him. times square is the crossroads of the world. we need everyone to go and put their name down at needtoimpeach.com. we need to speak up together and demand an end to this presidency.

(♪) (♪) it all starts with a wish. the lincoln wish list event is here. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down and a complementary first months payment.

i'm page hopkins, and here's what's happening. a fast moving wind fueled wildfire is scorching through nearly an acre per second in ventura, california, destroying homes and businesses in its wake. the out of control fire has forced 20,000 people to evacuate. john conyers is retiring from congress after facing a number of allegations of sexual misconduct. he has endorsed his son to replace him. a pile of rubble is all that's left after an explosion destroyed a home in the baltimore hilands today. this is the second explosion in just two days in that area. the cause of both is under investigation. now we take you back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." senior u.s. officials have confirmed to nbc news tonight that president trump will most likely recognize jerusalem as israel's capitol while delaying the relocation of our embassy to

tel aviv for another six months. he's expected to announce the decision tomorrow, the president is. meanwhile he quote, warned of a dangerous consequence such a decision would have to peace process and to the peace, stability and security of the region and of the world. the news drawed criticism across the globe. leaders from france, turkey, and the arab league spoke out. anyways, speaking alongside secretary of state rex tillerson, the top diplomat had this warning. >> it supports the meaningful process. we believe any action that would undermine these efforts must absolutely be avoided. a may must be found through negotiations to resolve so the

aspiration of both parties can be fulfilled. >> according to reuters senior state officials are deeply concerned with this decision. the move would break with decades of bipartisan foreign policy that rujuice lm must be decided with negotiations with the palestinians. i'm joined by the president of the american arab institute. i don't understand. is this just cheap politics? is he paying off a debt? is this for the evangelical community down in the south? who's going to cheer this? >> certainly the evangelicals will. but there'll be people dreading it and fearing it. in israel there will be people across the muslim world and arab world and also fearing it. jerusalem is a critically important symbol not only of religious importance but it represents to arabs and muslims i think the wound in the heart

that never healed after centuries of being manipulated by the imperial powers and then by designest movement, taking control of this city, locking people out. and then finally the u.s. recognizing it, that is devastating and i think a very irresponsible and dangerous move by the president. >> well, jim, as a kid i got to live over there for about a month near the old city above the damascus gate. you know that area. and always impressed being back there a couple of years how everything seems to work. you have the call to prayer, which is very beautiful. you have the very orthodox jewish people walking around in dark hats and somber all the time. and you've got the armennians and christians. everything is intertwined, very exact, and it works. what is this going to do -- >> it actually doesn't, though because here's the problem.

since israel built the wall and closed off jerusalem, you have lit lael served the heart of palestine. it was where people went to shop, to school, where they went for their political and social events. and then it got cut off. it's as if you said to northern virginia you can't come to washington anymore. so the people in palestine in jerusalem, in palestinian jerusalem are largely unemployed. it's a huge unemployment problem. plus you have thousands of homes that have been demolished by israelis and a family unification bill. where they have to leave if they want to live with their spouse. their spouse can't come live with thel. we just did a poll and we found 39% of people in jerusalem say either they or family members have been brutalized by violence. it is not a pretty picture in the city.

>> jim, is the implication here in the arab world, the islamic world we have now recognized jerusalem as the exclusive capitol of israel, there'll be no room for a palestinian capitol as part of jerusalem? >> it basically means the u.s. is doing what no other nation in the u.s. has done, which is recognizing israel's hold on rujuice lm, which the international community hasn't done. because in 1948 jerusalem was supposed to be an international city and israel broke that. it's 28 palestinian villages and a huge swatch of land where they built settlements and say this is now jerusalem. it is committed as a violation of international law by the world community. so i don't know what trump is recognizing right now. what i know is he's playing with fire. it's a dangerous and irresponsible game. and there will be consequences, very serious consequences and i

don't know if he cares. i'm hoping he wakes up tomorrow sees something on fox and friends and changes his mind. who knows. >> i certainly agree with playing with fire and serious consequences. people are going to die now because of what was said today. >> it's tragic. up next, new reporting mike pence was maneuvering to kick trump off the ticket following the "access hollywood" tape. this is billy bush speaking out about that tape conversation and firing back at the president for denyingates authenticity. trump made a big mistake here. those were his words, recorded. no denying it. you're watching "hardball."

♪ we are the driven... the dedicated... the overachievers. we know our best investment is in ourselves. we don't take no for an answer. we fight for what we want. even for the things that were once a given. going to college... buying a home... and not being in debt for it for the rest of our lives. but we're only as strong as our community. who inspires and pushes us to go further

than we could ever go alone. sofi. get there sooner. we need to be ready for my name's scott strenfel and r i'm a meteorologist at pg&e. we make sure that our crews as well as our customers are prepared to how weather may impact their energy. so every single day we're monitoring the weather, and when storm events arise our forecast get crews out ahead of the storm to minimize any outages. during storm season we want our customers to be ready and stay safe. learn how you can be prepared at pge.com/beprepared. together, we're building a better california. i would also like to say that's not me on the bus. you don't get to say that because i was there and the last 14 months of my life i have been dealing with it. you dealt with it for 14 minutes

and bent onto be the president. >> that was former "access hollywood" host billy bush on president trump's reported denials of the now infamous 2005 tape in which he boasts of being able to grope women. the tape did not cost trump the presidency, obviously. but a new profile vice president mike pence in the atlantic reports it very nearly could have. writing at the time the "access hollywood" tape was released, pence was genuinely shocked by the tape and he wasn't just think about dropping out. he was contemplating a coupe. it adds that within hours of the bombshell revelation pence made it clear to the republican national committee that he was ready to take trump's place as the prejudice nominee. a reporter for pence says it didn't happen. and blasted the claims the president's tape was inauthentic. let's listen.

>> that is your voice. that's your voice on the tape. allf these women came out with their names and told their detailed accounts. so when he said this it infureuted me on the personal front. 20 women don't get together, and say hey, you know what would be really fun, let's take down a powerful guy together. no, they don't. >> ginger gibson, political correspondent for reuters and the national reporter for "the new york times" in that order. what do we make of this coupe? do we believe that quiet mike pence, quiet, patient, waiting his turn, stopped waiting his tourn and began to contemplate grabbing at all last october? do we believe that? >> we shouldn't be surprised at all mike pence was ready to become president. known him for almost 15 years, and he has always been ready to step in and become president. also this isn't bad news to have

come out in the midst of this national reckoning we're dealing with right now, that basically his attitude was he was disgusted by reports of trump. there's also this desire to hide his ambition. >> it seems to me in politics -- i worked on the hill for years -- you never want it to pop up. popping up is a term used whenever there's a top guy in trouble and there looks tee boo a vacancy, you look to make a move for the seat. and you were waiting for him to fall because you wanted to grab what he had, and therefore you can never be trusted again because you popped up. now it looks like to me like mike pence popped up looking for the job the boss had. >> we know that mike pence was responding the way we saw most of the republican party when that video came out. there were many people who backed out of their endorsements

of donald trump, who said they couldn't vote for him. it's a cycle we're seeing play out again with roy moore. this is so awful, we can't get behind this, we don't support this, and then they look at some polls a few weeks later and all of a sudden as we're seeing this week, the rnc is back supporting roy moore in alabama. and i think you're right, this is bit of a pop up. we saw that in alabama. there's always going to be the person who would have stepped in and stolen moore's smaucht apot. and that's the dance we're watching play out again. it's ginning to be a bit of a ritualistic dance. >> do we have evidence that mike pence was ready to grab the job after "access hollywood"? >> i think that mike pence definitely thought hard about what he was going to do after "access hollywood." and i think it's not surprising he would think about stepping into the presidency. remember that when mike pence was chosen to be the

presidential candidate, many people thought he say going to be the person who could get the job done, the person actually seen as a conservative. so i could see him looking at the presidency, look at donald trump who the republicans diz not wachblt to be president and not at all endorsed by people -- the party essentially cringed when they had to say this was their candidate, i can see mike pence saying we should do that. but i can also see mike pence as we're seeing him now, saying this is all fake media, fake news and i have your back. he's never questioned him really publicly. he's toned to be the vice presidential candidate that has continued in some ways back donald trump at whatever costs. >> yeah, you sort affhave to do synchronized swimming when you're vp. in response to an august "the

new york times" report that pence was positioning himself for a 2020 run the vice president denoubsed the article saying it was just the latest attempt by the media to divide this administration. pence similarly rebutted an october "the new yorker" profile. when the conversation turned to gay rights, trump motioned toward pence and say don't vote that guy. he wants to hang them all. let's go to jonathan on that. it does seem pence is almost spookily silent. this guy is always like standing there waiting, just waiting. >> well, he's got a good portion of the republican base already, in a way in that he's very much a favor to the coke brothers and their network of donors. if he ever runs for president he's going to be able to count on that money.

i think he's trying to be a faithful vice president like you said, doing the synchronized swimming and at the same time keeping an eye on his future and trying to make sure if donald trump doesn't run for re-election or even if he does, the next presidential nominee is mike pence. >> do you think he can win an election in states like pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan, the ones trump won in his sort of perfectionism, do you think he could carry regular blue collar guys in the way that trump did? >> i think, he could, yes. >> what do you think? >> i think pence could have run. a lot of of were surprised it was the problems he had as governor that he didn't run. and i think you could find just with that economic message that trump pushed in those states, reverberated, they would look past some of those other moral issues and say they're willing to give him a pass on those because they like the economic

message. >> you think he's a little too da vinci code for the american people? what would you say? >> i would think that mike pence not only can he capture of the trump base, but i think people who might be turned off from mike pence after going for trump, he could also win back the republicans who fled from trump to hillary clinton. i think trump's going to hate this segment of the show more than he is the last segment of the show that's coming up at the end. all three pushing pence as a possible successor near term. the round table sticking with us. and up next we'll give you scoops we'll be talking about tomorrow. you're watching "hardball." hi.

i'm the one clocking in when you're clocking out. sensing and automatically adjusting to your every move. does your bed do that? i'm the new sleep number 360 smart bed. let's meet at a sleep number store.

in new york a book party for bob kennedy, "raging spirit." later tonight i'll be a guest on "the 11th hour with brian williams." tomorrow night on "morning joe" at 7:00 a.m. i'm asking you my "hardball" fans watching right now to order a copy of "bobby." it's about everything missing in today's politics. empathy for people in trouble. unity among our people generally. and yes, a moral compass. i spent years getting the facts of the story of bob kennedy together. please get it in your hands and savor this progressive message. . ...and compare medicare health plans.

why? because plans change, so can your health needs. so, be open-minded. look at everything-like prescription drug plans... and medicare advantage plans from private insurers. use the tools at medicare.gov. or call 1-800-medicare. open to something better? start today. ♪ ancestrydna can pinpoint where your ancestors are from... and the paths they took to a new home. could their journey inspire yours? order your kit at ancestrydna.com if yor crohn's symptoms are holding you back, and your current treatment hasn't worked well enough, it may be time for a change. ask your doctor about entyvio, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohn's. entyvio works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract and is clinically proven to help

many patients achieve both symptom relief and remission. infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. entyvio may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal brain infection caused by a virus may be possible. this condition has not been reported with entyvio. tell your doctor if you have an infection, experience frequent infections or have flu-like symptoms or sores. liver problems can occur with entyvio. if your uc or crohn's treatment isn't working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio. entyvio. relief and remission within reach. we're back with "the

hardball" roundtable. tell me something i don't know. >> mitt romney, the 2012 republican presidential nominee, is interested in a senate seat in utah. the problem is orrin hatch is still in it. the president went out to endorse hatch yesterday. yet still some republicans would like to see mitt romney run even if hatch doesn't retire. >> oh, just go for the top prize. by the way, trump does not want that guy in his senate. ginger? >> the republican party lost a talking point they were hoping was going to come in today, the mueller investigation put their first bill out, cost $3.2 million. a lot less than many thought, $5 million or $10 million. that means they're not going to be able to complain like they were about the cost of the investigation. >> the rich can handle the pocket change here. >> the retiring representative john conyers set off a family feud within herewith party, body his son john conyers iii is running for the seat, but his great nephew ian conyers is also running respect interesting race

to watch. >> he wins either way. when we return, let me finish with "trump watch." you're watching "hardball." the morning walk was so peaceful. until... it... wasn't. don't let type 2 diabetes get between you and your heart. even if you reach your a1c goal you are still at risk for heart attack or stroke. talk to your health care provider today about diabetic heart disease. and find out more at heartoftype2.com. your heart and type 2 diabetes. make the connection.

i'm not really a, i thought wall street guy.ns. what's the hesitation? eh, it just feels too complicated, you know? well sure, at first, but jj can help you with that. jj, will you break it down for this gentleman? hey, ian. you know, at td ameritrade, we can walk you through your options trades step by step until you're comfortable. i could be up for that. that's taking options trading from wall st. to main st. hey guys, wanna play some pool? eh, i'm not really a pool guy. what's the hesitation? it's just complicated. step-by-step options trading support from td ameritrade

but having his parents over was enlightening. ♪ you don't like my lasagna? no, it's good. -hmm. -oh. huh. [ both laugh ] here, blow. blow on it. you see it, right? is there a draft in here? i'm telling you, it's so easy to get home insurance on progressive.com. progressive can't save you from becoming your parents. but we can save you money when you bundle home and auto.

"trump watch." tuesday, december 5th, 2017. two republican senators have put this $1.5 trillion trump tax sugarplum for the rich in perspective. orrin hatch came out against children's health insurance on the ground that it goes too easy on the people it helps. "i have a rough time wanting to spend billions and billions and

trillions of dollars to help people who won't help themselves, won't lift a finger, and expect the federal government to do everything." he's talking about a program that helps children, a program that's been eliminated from the budget. iowa senator chuck grassley defended trump's pullback in the estate tax which allows wealthy couples to leave their heirs $22 million tax-free. "i think not having the estate tax recognizes the people that are investing as opposed to those that are just spending every darn penny they have, whether it's on booze or women or movies." that's a u.s. senator talking. so this is the heart of the republican economic doctrine. get the poor to work harder by cutting them off. get the rich to work harder by leaving them with more money than ever. why? you have to ask it. why is it considered good republican policy to hurt people at the bottom in order to get them presumably working harder but good republican policy to keep more money in the hands of the wealthy in order to presumably get them to work harder? why this sugar for the rich? the whip for the struggling

class? what's this about people spending their money on booze or women or movies? the senator from iowa sounds like the townsman from river city, iowa, singing "oh we got trouble." and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> mr. president, has mueller crossed a red line with dieutsce bank? >> thank you very much. >> following the money. >> i am not involved in russia. i have no vechts in russia. i have no deals that could happen in russia because we've stayed away. >> multiple reports that the mueller investigation has subpoenaed president trump's financial records from deutsche bank. tonight, the white house pushback. and congresswoman maxine waters on what this means for the president. then why republicans are returning to roy moore. >> i think he's going to do very well. >> as the democrat in the race