the more confidence you get, the easier it is to step forward. >> that's all for this edition of "dateline." i'm natalie morales. thanks for watching. good morning. i'm ron allen in new york at msnbc world headquarters. it's 7:00 in the east, 4:00 out west, an here's what's happening. that massive tax plan comes one step closer to reality. republicans say they have the votes to pass it, but what does it all mean for you in. >> i think it's going to do very, very well. >> where are all the benefits going? the vast majority are going to the wealthy. also, president trump trashes the fbi and the russia investigation, and he's not ruling out giving a pardon to national security adviser michael flynn. >> have you ever tried a jury trial? >> i have not. >> civil? >> no. >> criminal?

>> no. >> and that extremely embarrassing hearing for one of president trump's court nominees, who was up for a lifetime appointment as a federal judge. congress is about to approve a massive tax bill and give president trump his first big legislative victory. he calls it a christmas present, 1100 pages long. but how does it really affect you? speaker paul ryan says the house will vote tuesday. the senate could follow after that. republicans are like up behind the bill but no democrats support it. republicans say the bill is a win for the middle class. >> i have seen it. i think it's going to do very, very well. i think that we are going to be in a position to pass something as early as next week, which will be monumental. >> i think it's going to provide the kind of middle class tax relief that's desperately needed right now. people are looking at flat wages and higher expenses. this will help. in ohio, you know, the average will be about 1400 bucks for a

median income family. people living paycheck to paycheck, that's important. >> this delivers and prioritizes middle class tax relief. for many families in america, working blue-collar families will see a tax reduction of between 1200 and $2,000. that's real money for working-class families. >> but house minority leader nancy pelosi says the tax plan is a scam, stealing money from the middle class, giving more to the wealthy. she calls it a moral obscenity and warns the american people will hold republicans accountable. joining me now, senior political correspondent at bustle.com. and jeff mason, white house correspondent at reuters. jeff, i haven't been at the white house since inauguration. i miss it sometimes. sometimes i really don't. >> we miss you, ron. we miss you. >> thanks. let's start with you, erin. the president claims this is a christmas president. most americans don't seem to want it. "the new york times" survey monkey poll shows that majority,

57% of americans disapprove of the tax plan, while 37% approve. there's a lot of analysis that says most people are going to get a tax cut. why don't people like this? why don't they want this? >> it's been a contentious effort from the start. you've had partisan polling on both sides. now, the democrats came out fast when they said this is not a package of tax cuts from the middle class. this is relief for corporations. now, republicans are saying that could spur investment, spur business, and it could trickle down. but you have serious debates on both sides about whether this is going to lift up the middle class. that's what democrats are pushing on. >> as i understand it, many of the middle class benefits are short-term, while the corporate benefits are forever. >> yeah, and it's going to depend who comes into office next, right. this is a tax package that's been negotiated and, correct, there aren't these long-lasting effects you see. the more the public learns about t the less popular it's become. now, republicans are saying we could have this to the president's desk by wednesday. it's a question of what is in the bill, how long the public

has to digest it, and when it gets signed into law. >> 11 hu00 pages of it. how important is it for the president to have a victory? it seems like a hollow victory if the public is not into this and it's obviously a very partisan bill, republicans for it, democrats against it. how important is it for the president to spin this into a big victory? >> well, i think it's hugely important for the president. i don't think the white house would see it as a hollow victory at all. this is one of the things that the president did promise as a candidate in 2016. it's something that his fellow republicans have been wanting for years and years. it comes after several months in which he was not able to get a major legislative victory. so being able to say, look, we've produced on tax cuts for corporations, and they say for the middle class, is absolutely something they'll bring into the next year's midterm elections and say we did it. >> that is the headline, the corporate tax cut. something else that concerns me about this, erin, is the

obamacare, the aca, the individual mandate is eliminated from it. we know that the sign-up period, enrollment period ended yesterday. the numbers were lagging to where they would have been. this is after the trump administration quote/unquote sabotaged the effort by cutting the period in half and by taking away all the money for outreach and education. is the affordable care act dead without the mandate? >> that's something they're going to legislate in the weeks and months to come. it is definitely damaged. there's a backbone to this. what democrats have said is that the law isn't perfect, give us a chance to change it. this chips away at the structural integrity of the law, and absolutely there will be effects. >> jeff, just one last thing. if you had to really break this down and explain this bill to the middle class, to working people, what's the headline in terms of what's in it for them? >> well, i guess there's lots of different aspects to this bill. you've mentioned how long it is, but i think some important aspects are, a, it's being paid for by increasing the debt. that's something republicans are willing to accept.

>> that's a huge thing. >> it's a huge thing, and it's something that normally you would not have associated with the republican party, but in this case, that's something they've accepted. it would be over a trillion dollars in debt over ten years. and it's a massive decrease or what democrats would say is a gift to corporate america because it's reducing the 35% tax rate down to 21%. on top of that, there are also tax cuts for middle-class americans. that's the thing that the white house in particular and senators and members of the house have been emphasizing. >> love the word tax cuts. love the word tax relief. . >> indeed. that's what they're pushing. >> okay, guys. stay with me for now. we're going to move on to the russia investigation. but you'll be back. president trump had some extremely harsh words for the fbi conducting that probe. and he isn't ruling out a pardon for michael flynn, who's pleaded guilty for lying to

investigators. here's nbc's kristen welker. >> reporter: a defiant president trump not ruling out a pardon for his ousted national security adviser michael flynn, who pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi about his contacts with the russian ambassador. >> would you consider a pardon for michael flynn? >> i don't want to talk about pardons for michael flynn yet. we'll see what happens. >> reporter: a lawyer for the president saying there is no consideration at all for a pardon for michael flynn at this time. a big question as investigators probe potential obstruction charges when the president learned flynn had lied to the fbi. >> how many times has that question been asked? >> reporter: the president once again insisted. >> there's absolutely no collusion. that has been proven. >> reporter: but congressional investigators say they're still digging. >> the issue of collusion is still open, that we continue to investigate. >> reporter: the president saving some of his sharpest words for the fbi. he recently said the bureau's reputation is in tatters after revelations a top official was removed from the special counsel

investigation for sending disparaging text messages about mr. trump. >> it's a shame what's happened with the fbi, but we're going to rebuild the fbi. it'll be bigger and better than ever. >> reporter: later speaking at the fbi training academy, the president held his fire. >> it's an honor to stand here. >> reporter: the president has lashed out at the fbi since before the election. those attacks now getting sharper. >> they're clearly in response to the intensity of this investigation as it moves closer to the oval office. >> that was nbc's kristen welker reporting. now we're back with our guests. the thing we didn't play is president trump saying everybody's angry at the fbi, everybody, everybody. you know how he does these -- he creates this reality that may not, in fact, exist. did you think that everybody is saying that they're angry at the fbi, or do you think that, erin, this is, as some sarks an effort to just undermine the whole mueller investigation and discredit it before it continues

on? >> it's both. of course he's angry at the fbi. the fbi has been a thorn in his side almost from day one. you've seen that not only in the way he's worked through his administration and some of the people he's fired but in the way he's reacted to those people. at the same time, if he jumps in and he criticizes and discredits the fbi early, he can get out ahead of its findings, and he can damage the credibility there. it's a two-pronged approach. >> jeff, there's even talk from the republican side about a second special prosecutor. do you think that's going to happen? >> well, it's hard for me to say, but it doesn't seem very likely. i think that is certainly -- well, at least many people would interpret that as a diversion tactic. it's also a reflection of the fact that republicans have become increasingly frustrated with what they're seeing coming out of that investigation, and that's certainly closely tied to the feelings that people in the white house are having. >> do you think the white house is concerned about this? is it really getting hot? there's this talk about pardoning michael flynn, for example. it was a response to a question.

but that that would even be out there suggests they are thinking way down the road how to solve this big problem. >> well, that's out there because it was asked. but this issue has overshadowed president trump's administration since he got into office. and it comes at a time when they're trying to do other things like tax reform that we were talking about earlier. so it remains a very, very constant source of frustration, both for this president and for the people working for him. >> here's something else i want you to look at. there was a moment during a senate hearing that i want to talk about. a trump judicial nominee being questioned by a republican senator from louisiana. watch this. >> have you ever tried a jury trial? >> i have not. >> civil? >> no. >> criminal? >> no. >> bench? >> no. >> state or federal court? >> i have not. >> just for the record, do you know what a motion in liminy is? >> i would probably not be able to give you a good definition. >> do you know what the younger

abstention doctrine is? >> i've heard of it, but again -- >> how about the pulmony abstention doctrine? y'all see that a lot in federal court. >> that was a commissioner, a lawyer at the federal elections commission. he was up for a lifetime appointment as a federal judge in washington, d.c. jeff, how does that happen? how embarrassing is that for him? >> well, a tough moment. you know, i think that moment sort of speaks for itself. how does it happen? i mean, this is who the trump administration put up for that nomination. they've got an lot of criticism for it. i think the fact that it's still being played over and over is not a great scenario for them. >> but erin, the serious part of this is that there are i think about 143 judicial nominations open. president trump has been appointing people at record pace. this, of course, is something that president obama could not do because he was blocked. and this is one way how president trump is really

changing what's happening in the country. very much under the radar. how much concern is there about that? and do you think there will be more nominees who will be blocked because of this? >> well, a moment like this brings that trend to light, but this has mostly been a very quiet and consistent mounting campaign from the administration. we've seen a lot of judicial appointments. this is the one that might get people to stop and say, hey, who are these nominees and are they qualified? it has been a huge issue working in the background. >> thanks very much, guys. stick around. you're in tnot finished yet. coming up, foreign policy, north korea. president trump and his secretary of state in a tug of war. they don't seem to be on the same page. that's up next. more people shop online for the holidays than ever before. (clapping) and the united states postal service delivers more of those purchases to homes

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the president's policy on

north korea is quite clear, and there's no daylight at all between the president's policy and the pursuit of that policy. the president, i think, has been very clear that we're going to lead this pressure campaign. we're going to unite the international community, and we're going to keep the pressure as much as we can and increase it where possible. >> that was secretary of state rex tillerson at the united nations last week addressing concerns that president trump and the state department are not together in their efforts to address the looming crisis that is north korea. joining me now, steve clemens, editor at large for "the atlantic" and an msnbc contributor. thanks for joining us, steve. i just spent a month in south korea not long ago, a very long month. what struck me is that people there are more concerned and worried about president trump than kim because he's unpredictable, because he's incoherent, they say. is this back and forth with rex tillerson about preconditions for talks or not, that seems to be another example of that. is there really a plan, or is

this all just bluster, and how concerned are you about this? >> i mean, i think that rex tillerson had a plan, which is to try and open a door to north korea to bring in russia. russia praised his comments on tuesday, which were very -- quite different than the ones you played where he said, you know, he discussed the weather with north korea. he would sit down with them without preconditions to try to detoxify the atmosphere and try to move them forward, to figure out a plan to possibly denuclearize north korea. the russians praised tillerson. the white house almost immediately undercut tillerson's position and said that he was off key again. in fact, one white house official said he didn't learn his lesson the first time. >> is he going to be around? >> we don't know if he's going to be around, but what we do see is despite what rex tillerson said, there is distance between his position as stated earlier this week and the white house, which really kind of wants to see north korea capitulate on its own as a result of the pressure that they think donald trump is bringing.

so it is confusing to everyone. >> this whole issue of denuclearization is one of the keys to it. it's hard to see how the north koreans give up their weapons. it is such a part of their whole national identity. this is what it's all about for them. doesn't the united states just have to accept they're a nuclear state? with limits. >> ron, there's a side to this where for all the parties to formally accept north korea as a nuclear state, it's something that china and russia aren't willing to do. the question is, you know, north korea in a way basically survived off of extortion, behaving badly, trying to get resources into the country to get it to behave well. i agree with you. i don't see a scenario in which north korea gives up the capacities it has. as richard haas and others have said, there are lots of things you could do. you could get an agreement that suspends testing, that suspends any more missile tests. >> that limits things. >> they do other elements of

this that basically make that asset which north korea has impractical in the long run. >> steve, i'm sorry -- >> no one is doing that. no one is putting together a plan other than north korea capitulating, which you know isn't going to be the case. >> and there's not even a u.s. ambassador in seoul yet. senator lindsey graham told a colleague of yours that he thinks there's a 30% chance president trump launches a strike against north korea if they launch a nuclear test, another nuclear test. it would be their seventh. >> well, i actually think lindsey said there's a 30% chance now and if there's another nuclear test, the chance goes up to 70%. that's very disconcerting if, in fact, lindsey graham is anywhere close. >> as you know, the south koreans are adamantly opposed to this because seoul is about 50 miles from the border, the dmz, about 100 miles from the capital. it's not just a nuclear threat. it's the conventional arms threat. it's all the artillery along the border. south korea would be

annihilated. >> the conventional arms threat is absolutely significant. any of the scenarios that the pentagon has run before in which you begin to see either an escalation of conflict, any kind of kinetic military action there results in, at the lowest end, with hundreds of thousands of deaths. you know can go up into the millions very rapidly. not just in south korea but also our ally of japan. one of the most telling interviews was steve bannon when he left the white house. basically said, look, we're not going to kill millions of people in north korea. they have won this round. so at least there is recognition among people like bannon about the incredible potential human casualties and costs. >> it would be incredible. just incredible. thanks, steve. really appreciate it. thanks for being here. >> my pleasure. changing gears, omarosa says the show isn't over.

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before we go, i want to talk to erin and jeff one more time about some things that caught my eye that you wrote. yes, i actually do read your stories. >> thank you, ron. >> omarosa omaroleaving the whi house, jeff. in typical reality tv star fashion, plugging her new book. sources say they expect a wave of departures once trump completes his first year in office. is that chaos, is that normal? has the new chief of staff really restored some order there? >>. >> well, if you look back over the last year, there have been some waves already. certainly there was a wave this summer when the previous chief of staff, reince priebus, and sean spicer, the then-press secretary left. and we've seen sort of drips of other staff leaving in and out. what i've heard from a lot of sources with ties to the white house is that a lot of folks are

waiting to get through that first year point. >> so they can be over with it? this is not a positive thing. this is a negative thing. >> well, i'm not going to say whether it's positive or negative. i'm just going to say what people are expecting. and that is that people came in, wanted to serve for a year, and then sort of see what happens next. certainly is unusual to have as much turnover as this administration has had. >> we have less than two minutes. sorry to cut you off. erin, what i wanted to talk to you about is the winners and losers of the alabama senate race. obviously doug jones won. you also wrote the "me too" campaign you think was a winner. a lot of people think it was a winner. that may, in fact, call for more chorus for all this to come back to president trump. my question, does this whole "me too" sexual wrongdoing, whatever you want to call it, does that get to the white house or no? >> trump's own accusers are saying at this moment they're

reinvigorated. they're going to try telling their stories again. what we saw with roy moore is eventually enough voters in alabama not only believed the allegations against moore were true, they believed they disqualified him from office. so we're seeing a different climate even from a few weeks ago. trump's accusers are saying it's a different climate than from a year ago. >> he seems able to deflect and change the subject. >> teflon don. everything comes off of him. he's up against a lot this year with the conclusion of the russia investigation, this reignited "me too" campaign, any of his domestic policies outside of tax reform, plus the international crises. >> it's been an amazing thing. every day another figure. one interesting thing, it hasn't really hit the private sector that much. wall street. we're hearing about entertainment figures, people from the arts, but not that corporate area. it'll be interesting to see if that ever happens. got to go. erin and jeff, thanks so much for being with us. >> thank you. >> thanks. that'll do it for me.

i'm ron allen. thanks for watching. i'll see you here again tomorrow at this time. coming up at the top of the hour, hugh hewitt. first, it's "your business" with jj ramberg. needles. essential for vinyl, but maybe not for people with rheumatoid arthritis. because there are options. like an "unjection™". xeljanz xr. a once daily pill for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. xeljanz xr can reduce pain, swelling and further joint damage, even without methotrexate.

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