that's a wrap of this hour of msnbc live. i'm alex witt. right now it's time for a.m. joy with my good friend, joy reid. >> unless they figure out a way to increase the refundable part. unless they figure out a way to give corporations an extra year of cuts. the way they figured out a way to lower the top rate for families making $1 million. unless they can figure out a way to add to the 1100 figure, i won't support the bill. >> good morning. and welcome to "a.m. joy" to quote our very own chris hayes, if your life depends on marco rubio having a spine, you're already dead. rubio is now a yes. on the gop tax plan, surprise. but he did manage to wrangle a tiny bit more generous child tax

credit in the final tax cut bill with his threat of defection, the bill was released friday night, a time politicians reserve for releasing the most unflattering news. but marco wasn't alone in caving. senator bob corker has also reversed course and will vote yes on the bill. because he says the country is quote better off with it. the republicans now have a clearer path to victory on their long-held dream of cutting taxes for corporations and the super rich. just in time for the house to vote on tuesday and the senate by the end of the week. joining me now is the host of the "last word." the thing i like most about having on the show? >> the fact that it's christmas and i bring you presents. i know you've read the book "playing with fire" the new book that's perfect christmas present. you don't have the audio book. >> i don't. >> and now you do. this is for people who can't get enough of the sound of my voice. and i think that's only you.

>> i think -- >> i think that's only you. so drive cross-country and listen to the book. >> i love it. i'm going to listen to the book. it is an excellent book, i'm not just saying that because i like lawrence o'donnell. i'm obsessed with the year it's about, 1968. >> i have a bigger present, it's not from me. he promised you a present. >> a gift. >> and here it is -- donald trump's christmas present to joy reid. the tax bill. >> with a bow. >> the christmas present tax bill. donald trump sent that over this morning. joy reid. >> thank you so much for my present. >> 1100 pages. i'm sure you'll get to it soon. >> how amazing is this. according to donald trump, this is not just a gift for me, a gift for the entire middle class. and it's going to make everybody great again. why is it that republicans were pretending there was something

wrong with this? >> the game in the senate especially when it's a close vote and by the way, marco rubio played this game masterfully and every other republican senator hates him for it. which is to be, it's to be the last man standing on something you know you're going to vote for. everybody else knows you're going to vote for, really. and you're pulling a stunt to get attention to the thing you got. in the end, which was this increase in the child tax credit. which is temporary. and of course you never mentions that. and it was something that they kind of needed to do, anyway. after they had given even bigger tax breaks to the rich in the final version of the bill. they were looking for something like this, where can we squeeze in a finy give-way, that goes to another income group, other than the rich. so rubio was the one who played that he will now get credit for that. they know this is an explosion of the deficit. all of them do.

bob corker is, i don't know how you want to characterize it. the but you could call it the funniest of these votes. he actually said to chuck todd on "meet the press," the video that will live forever. i will not vote for a bill that increases the deficit by -- >> one penny. >> it's now a memorized line in politics. this increases the deficits by $1.5 trillion. and corker knows that and his statement to voting for it, he makes no attempt to mitigate that. he doesn't say about that one penny. he doesn't say a word about that. >> it's very deliberate. it's a cycle. we've been in this cycle now, literally since 1993. it started in the 1980s. bill clinton gets elected. having run on a middle class tax cut. which he did not do. he then enacted the biggest tax increase in history and i was there working in the senate finance committee. helped him do it. that was a completely partisan vote.

the first big completely partisan vote. >> zero republicans, all democrats. >> so bill clinton raises taxes. that means the republicans get to run for the presidency against bill clinton. and then against al gore on the idea of cutting taxes. and so george w. bush cuts the taxes that the democratic president raised. he cuts them to a point that's obviously going to create a mass i have deficit. it does. and then the democratic president comes in and has to raise them, barack obama. and then the republican presidential candidates get to run against the raised taxes by the democrat. so we know who is going to fix the deficit. it's the next democratic president. and that president will pay a price from republicans campaigning against that president for having raised taxes. >> the one thing that i think that does feel different this time is that it seems that the public has finally caught on to this game. because the approval rating, normally tax cuts are popular. >> the approval of the tax cut

plan, only 26% approve it. the latest quinnipiac numbers, who will benefit it from it? 65% of the people in the poll say the wealthy will benefit. only 21% say the middle class and will it cut your taxes? only 16% of people say it will cut their taxes. your senator or representative votes for this tax cut bill will be you more likely to re-elect or not? not. people have figured this out. >> and they're going to see the second stage of it i got to say the republicans are being remarkably uncool. about the second stage of this. which is -- next year of course is we have to cut medicare and we have to cut social security. because look, the deficit. and the deficits will be projected to be much higher because of this tax bill. and paul ryan has come out and said, i really want to get to this. and the truth is, republicans have always wanted to do both of these things. they've wanted to starve the beast, as my boss in the senate used to say. senator moynihan.

they want to starve the beast, that's this part, cut off the funding to the government and then having cut off the funding to the government, let's all sit around and decide what spending we have to cut. >> meals on wheels, food stamps, got to go. >> the biggest stuff can you go for is medicare and social security. >> and defense is big, but we can never touch that. >> it's interesting the way the different sort of actors are behaving here. bob corker, i understand, he's retiring, there's no reason to do this. he's getting a job with the koch brothers. >> it's always the same thing, ambiti ambition. bob corker is not retiring, he's quitting a job. and then he is hoping and you can see the way he's playing trump now. he knows that donald trump going to need another secretary of state soon, any day now, any week now. like every week, right? so corker is positioning himself so that he is appointable by trump as secretary of state. at the same time he knows america is going to need another

president, because this one is out of control. >> he says he's in a day care center. >> and republicans might be looking for a president and -- bob corker has to be ready to run for president in 2020. and if trump collapses enough in the polls, corker could challenge him as we've seen, pat buchanan do in the republican primaries against an incumbent president, as we saw the democrats do in 1968 against an incumbent president. corker could be that guy. he has separated himself in enough ways from trump. but the one thing you can't separate yourself from with the republican donor class for campaigns, is tax cuts, so he, he, he's done the right thing for his ambition. >> and personal finance, more than half of these guys are multimillionaires. >> i was in the room in 1993

when this biggest tax increase was being negotiated and worked out. there were a lot of men, because it was all men in that room. except for janice mays, the chief of staff for the ways and means committee and knew more about taxation than the rest of us. there were a lot of men on that room who were raising taxes on themselves. there were rich men in that room. including the treasury secretary and, and i was fascinated by this. because it was my first time in the room on tax legislation at the highest levels in the oval office and i was quite fascinated by watching these people, who never once said a word about how this affects them. and one moment, there was exactly one moment where we took in anecdotal information about how it affects individuals. but it was about the rate for single individuals and one of us, one of the staff people in the room, woman, was single. and one of the senators turned to her and said, so what do you think about that? that was fascinating.

because he was more concerned with how it would affect someone much lower down on the tax brackets and single. the single filers. and but what's fascinating about it. when i was doing it. was there wasn't a hint from anyone in the room that anyone gave a thought, not one second of thought to what this would do to their tax return and every one of them was going to pay more. >> paul ryan is going to benefit from that. and none of them want to pay for it with their voters, because paul ryan might not stick around to pay the consequences. >> this is way too heavy for to you carry home. i'm going to give you, this is all the republican members of congress. that's all they're going to read. >> they'll just read the top sheet. >> i'll carry this over to your office because it's too heavy for you. >> this is really, that's really it. why should you work harder than them? >> you're right. well you know what -- >> i'll just get this.

>> i have no estate. so this is all i'm getting from them. lawrence o'donnell, thanks for the gift. >> merry christmas, joy. >> this one is better, you should be "playing with fire." you can get this version of it if you want lawrence o'donnell to read this to you personally. you love lawrence o'donnell week nights at 10:00 p.m. coming up next, donald trump is keeping his friends close and america's enemies closer. how's it going down there? that's good. lica misses you. i'm over it though. (laughter) that's fine. i miss her more than you anyway. ♪ ♪ hey, my window is closing. yeah that's okay. alright miles. i love you. (phone hangs up) ♪ ♪ yeah i love you too. ♪ ♪

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would you consider a pardon for michael flynn? >> i don't want to talk about pardons for michael flynn yet. we'll see what happens. let's see. i can say this -- when you look at what's gone on with the fbi and with the justice department, people are very, very angry. thank you very much, everybody. thank you. >> donald trump would not rule out a pardon for his felonious former national security adviser, michael flynn. even as he continued to impugn the reputation of the agency that caught flynn in a lie. white house lawyer ty cobb went on damage control after trump's statement. telling the hill in an email quote no there's no consideration of the white house in pardoning michael flynn. trump dangled the possibility of a pardon as his the investigation with robert mueller moved the investigation closer to the questions swirling

around president trump. including the ones he refused to answer on friday. -- [ inaudible ] >> what else is there? you know the answer. how many times has that question been asked? >> joining me are two of the people responsible for prosecuting crimes in the watergate scandal. nick ackerman and jill banks. what would be the practical legal consequences if donald trump were to pardon michael flynn? >> the practical consequences are that he wouldn't be charged with a crime. but he's already spilled his guts. he's already told mueller everything he knows. and in addition to that, his cooperation agreement requires him to also speak to local and state officials. so i guarantee you that mueller has already had flynn speaking to the attorney general of the state of new york's people. who are doing this jointly with him. so that if somehow mueller was disbands and that group had to go, state attorney general could simply step in here, and use state crimes as opposed to

federal crimes. >> they could prosecute flynn, they could prosecute his son who is probably in this deal. are you assuming that immunity for michael flynn jr. was in the deal? >> i assume it was, it must have been. the central crime here, relates to the fact that a crime was committed when they hacked the democratic national committee, for those emails. the only question that remains is who else was involved, was the trump campaign part of the conspiracy to get those emails out to throw the election to donald trump. there are good laws in new york state that cover the exact same crimes. so if the president somehow thinks he's going to derail this investigation by getting rid of mueller, he's in for a big surprise. >> jill i said on "hardball" the other night that i feel like this is almost watergate, but rerun the way roger stone wishes that watergate had been run in terms of the coordination of the attacks on the prosecutor. the coordination of the attacks on the investigators. and trump perhaps trying to get away with tiring bob mueller.

so let's talk about mueller for a moment. this was the republican cohort of trump defenders, sort of almost a self-appointed defense counsel for donald trump sitting in congress questioning, criticizing bob mueller and the fbi investigation. this is just from this week, let's listen to several republican members of congress. >> i call on my republican colleagues to join me in calling for the firing of bob mueller. >> this is disgusting, unaccountable bias and there's no way that could not affect a person's work. >> i think the public trust in this whole thing is gone. >> we're now beginning to better understand the magnitude of this insider bias on mr. mueller's team. >> so jill winebanks, do you see in that kind of talk, the preparations being laid, the groundwork being laid to have bob mueller fired? >> i see the -- ground being laid for that. and i see a real threat to

democracy and the system of justice and to the rule of law. there was nothing really like that during watergate. the congress went about its investigation and never threatened the special prosecutor or the fbi in any way. we did make some specific efforts for the american people to know who we were, so they would trust us. we had interviews with the press, which is not normal for prosecutors. but our press officer felt that the american people needed to know who we were and that we were honest people. and that we weren't out to get the president. the fact that people have opinions does not make them biased. it's like being a juror. you can have an opinion. you just have to agree to set it aside and to follow the evidence wherever it takes you. and to make your decision based on the evidence in the courtroom. and there's no reason why investigators and the prosecutors cannot do the same

thing. they will put aside their opinions. and they should be left alone even with having an opinion 0 on the case. >> what you're talking about is not bob mueller, but the agent that was removed from the russia probe, his name was strzok. that a review of the krobs betwe correspondence between the former fbi agent and his girlfriend, revealed they had negative things to say not just about donald trump, but about eric holder, bernie sanders, they had lots of things to say. but it's the trump part of the conversation between this former fbi agent and his then-girlfriend that were released. and i want to come to you on this, nick, by the department of justice. this is an interesting sort of turn here. you have the inspector general sending a letter to house judiciary that the department did not consult with the office of inspector general before sharing text messages from this fbi agent who has because a

celebrity cause on the right to say this is proof that the mueller investigation is tainted there was no consultation with oig before the messages were released. i want you to listen to rod rosenstein the deputy attorney general on wednesday talking about the consultation that should have happened. >> are you aware of the ig rule which says that material in an ongoing investigation cannot be released? >> thank you, i appreciate that. in this inquiry came in from the congress, we did consult with the inspector general. and he determined that he had no objection to releasing the material. if he had, i can assure you i would not have authorized the release. >> what do you make of the fact that you have a recused attorney general overseeing a department of justice that releases the selected text messages of an fbi agent, that were not this was not during the time he was part of the investigation of donald trump. but releasing them in a way to bolster the case that the mueller investigation is tainted? >> i wouldn't necessarily impute

bad motives to that, that it was done to bolster the case. the emails were going to be released anyway, they are being given to a congressional committee. the other point here is the content of those emails is no worse than what the secretary of state, donald trump's own secretary of state, has said about him. >> that's true. >> so i don't know what the big deal is about these emails. i've worked with hundreds of fbi agents in ten years being a federal prosecutor. never once did politics ever arise. i don't even know who these people voted for. i just know that they are dedicated public official who is do their job. looking at the evidence and going with the evidence wherever it leads. >> absolutely. you know, to if back to mueller for a second, jill, is that you have this sort of coordinated campaign, not just against the fbi, and its extraordinary to hear republicans who are angry that nfl players are kneeling in response to law enforcement

killing black men, women and children. and who claim that black lives matter. hates the police. attacking actively the fbi law enforcement and bob mueller who is decorated navy veteran, vietnam and probably most respected fbi director in u.s. history, anyway. hearing the way that they are attacking him. is extraordinary. let's listen to in may. back when mueller was first appointed special prosecutor, this is how republicans talked about him. >> he is someone who is widely respected for his professionalism. he's going to conduct a fair and thorough investigation, of that i have no doubt. >> you couldn't have picked a better man to do the job. >> all of us are who know director mueller are very happy he's there. >> the justice department need to do their jobs independently, objectively and thoroughly. i believe the special counsel, which is robert mueller now, helps them do that. >> now this is how state media on fox has been attacking mueller lately. >> the day another story that

exposes just how corrupt robert mueller's team are. robert mueller's team is hyperpartisan. anti-trump, many unethical. >> i've never seen anything as corrupt as one special counsel that of robert mueller. >> this is a cleansing needed in our fbi and department of justice. it needs to be cleansed of individuals who should not just be fired, but who need to be taken out in handcuffs. >> first jill and then nick. have you ever heard anyone let alone republicans talk this way about federal law enforcement? and about someone like robert mueller? >> never have i heard anything like it. and it is clear evidence that the closer the trail of evidence gets to the president, the more vociferous the arguments against mueller are. it has nothing to do with mueller's integrity, his honesty, his lack of bias, and the prior support that they

showed for him. it has to do with the fact that they know now the republicans know now, that the trail of evidence may implicate the president. when they thought that it would exonerate the president, they were fine. this is unprecedented in american history and americans should be very alarmed at the choice that may be made to fire mueller. that has to be a red line. >> nick, are we headed for a constitutional crisis if in fact donald trump, now that he's got the backing, the full backing of the politburo of republicans, whatever he wants and needs, he's got fox news with whipping up his base to say that mueller is a criminal, are we headed for a constitutional crisis if donald trump fires the guy? >> we very well could be. the cleansing ought to take place at fox news. that's where people ought to be fired for trying to undermine our legal and justice system. i mean it is absolutely outrageous what they're doing.

on the one hand, all the republicans welcomed robert mueller's investigation, welcomed him, he's a life-long republican. he was a republican appointee to the fbi. he was a republican aide to a former republican attorney general. i mean -- if anybody ought to be cleansed, it ought to be the very people we played the clips from on fox news. their whole goal is to try to undermine our rule of law and our legal system. >> the same thing they did to comey. who was heroic in the eyes of republicans, until he wasn't. now if he's against trump, he's essentially an enemy of the state. thank you for being here. up next, steve bannon may have felt gutted this week, we'll tell you why after a quick break. you need to buy a car

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i have been waiting all my life and now i just don't know what the hell to say. i have always believed that the people of alabama have more in common than divide us. [ cheers and applause ] >> this week, the state of alabama took a stand and dodged a bullet. rejecting republican roy moore, the trump-endorsed accused child molester and the horse he rode in on, sorry, sassy. instead a majority chose doug jones, the first democrat the state will send to the united states senate in 25 years. and a man who made a name for himself prosecuting the kkk members who bombed that church in 1963, killing four black

girls. the stunning epic victory for jones and his party was largely response to sexual misconduct allegations against moore. but make no mistake -- the outcome was also just the latest example of the political power of black voters. as well as the effectiveness of local activists who mobilized voting efforts and won. joining me now is legal and political analyst eric guster. adrian shropshir, bernard simalton and john hammond from director alabama group. adrian, i've been reading through the memo that black pac put out, about the way that you guys ran this campaign. i think the sort of meta-narrative was doug jones ran a really smart campaign. the democratic party came in and supported him. the national media collapsed roy moore and that's how he won. but the real story is different. tell us how you were involved in the effort. >> i would say there are probably a couple of take-aways from the election.

one is that black voters are sending a message. the message has two pieces. one is that a total rejection of the current political climate that includes donald trump, that also includes congressional republicans in the way that they're handling our government. and the second is that you know, black voters are rejecting as you said, the politics of the day. but they're also asserting the type of political leadership that they want to see. the type of progressive diverse political leadership that they want to see. and for us, what that has meant is being able to mobilize programs and mobilize this program in particular in alabama where we talk to over 100,000 doors we knocked on, 500,000 doors, we talked to voters about issues specifically. not just about candidates, we talked to them about what was at stake in the election. but it was not just us, obviously this was a massive network of grassroots organizations. political organizations. engaged in the work.

we worked with obviously with the naacp, but also with dewana thompson, they engaged churches across the state. had an hbcu program that mobilized memorial voters, we worked with natasha brown who coordinated 30 grassroots organizations across the state specifically in the black belt to make sure that communities were turning out to vote. there was the southern election fund. there was a massive approach to, to the campaign itself. that really you know in some ways if you were on the ground, what you knew was that black people were turning out to vote. the articles that came out ahead of time that said black people are disengaged. we were talking to people on the ground. what you knew was that black people were going to show up and they were bringing their families and bringing their neighbors. it wasn't a surprise. it was a relief for sure, but it wasn't a surprise. >> you spent about $2.1 million on your efforts to get out $600,000 from the national party. it was also about using black

contractors on the ground. people who knew the community. important to do that. >> that's right, we partnered with senate majority pac to do this outreach. they stepped up and understood it was important to invest in organizations of color and invest in black leadership. and we also worked with folks like john poe on the ground. we worked with other local elected officials. >> who is john poe? >> a is an active operative in alabama. >> eric, i remember talking to you abobefore the election. one of the criticisms that a lot of people, african-americans engaged was that the actual jones campaign itself was not necessarily conversant with how to mobilize black voters there was the infamous flyer with the skeptical-looking black guy. i don't know if we have that. to show hey if a black man after high school girls works anyone make him a senator? there were a lot of people offended by that. the campaign didn't know what to do. how important was it that more

cognizant sort of black organizations filled in the gap? >> it was very important. because when black organizations have people on the ground, they know exactly what the black community needs. and what how to voice those issues and how to voice those concerns. because the jones campaign ignored many black vendors who approached them who ran the randall wolfen, the mayor of birmingham, there were a lot of people involved in his campaign who approached the jones campaign and said hey, let us work for you. their bids went upon deaf ears, that's an example of how some of us were disengaged from the jones campaign itself. similar to what black pac was saying we as black people started mobilizing, started getting people involved. and roy moore was the candidate that was easy to hate. his wife, the statements such as when was america great? blackback when slavery. we don't dislike jus, we have a

jewish lawyer. those are the type of things that the moore campaign was saying, that made it very easy for us to mobilize voters, to say this man we definitely don't need to represent us. and don't need him to represent the state of alabama. >> and bernard simalton, the naacp, you look back and look at places like mississippi, alabama, in the 150s and '60s, were very much involved in the effort to register black voters, it can be very difficult in places like alabama and mississippi, which were incredibly resistant to black people having the vote. we haven't heard from the naacp in the grassroots organization in a while. how did you manage to get back in the game? or is it wrong to say that you guys have been out of it? >> we have not been out -- we've always registered voters, that's one of our bread and butters, we always do that. what happened this time is we used some new tools, new technologies to help concentrate on getting out the vote. that's what we concentrated on. is through social media. through facebook, we had over

what, 900,000 hits on facebook. through text messages, sending messages out to people, via text, register to vote. don't forget to register to vote. the deadline is november 27. don't forget to register to vote. and these things that continuously was sent to the voters, and they realize that this is an important election. we've got to participate. we have a lot of organizations, socially in hrc, people demanding action. and others march on, that came to us and we went to them first and then they started bringing on other people that really helped us put this campaign together, that impressed on people the importance of getting out to vote. we don't want to sit this one out. >> john hammontree, what was interesting about the roy moore versus the sort of sad little roy moore thing at the end, where he didn't want to concede

and he had this little sad, half-empty room and the doug jones rally at the end was how diverse the doug jones rally was, on the stage, the people in the audience. and the fact he did have this multiracial coalition. when you look at the exits, he still lost white voters in alabama by a significant margin. he lost white women, he lost white college-educated women. we were putting up some of those numbers earlier. it's not as if jones was able to make a lot of headway with white voters, am i wrong to say that it was the mobilization of the african-american vote that made the difference? >> that definitely made a difference. but i mean when the race is this close, i think you have to say that everything mattered. you know he only got 49% of the vote, so he did need the 30% of the white vote that did show up. and i think what should be encouraging for progressives and for the democratic party in alabama is i believe that he won every demographic under 50. and that's really what the future of the democratic party is going to have to focus on, because yeah, everything that

was done by black pac and will vote and the naacp was important and it made him win. it made doug jones the senator-elect of alabama. but a lot of those votes are concentrated in congresswoman terry sewell's district. a lot of those votes on the state legislature level and the state senate level are concentrated in black districts. it has been gerrymandered in such a way that even when black voters flex their power and show the power of their voice, they're still underrepresented in the state senate and the state house. and so i think in order for the democratic party to really achieve some parity in the state, they're going to have to start making inroads into places like huntsville and into the birmingham suburbs. because you know coming up in 2020, we'll have another census and alabama is likely to lose a house seat. and you know, it's a 30% african-american state. we should have two out of our soon-to-be six congresspeople should be african-american.

in all likelihood by demographics. i think in order to achieve that, they're going to have to figure out a way to get white voters more engaged with the party. and i think messages from jones helped to achieve that. >> very quickly, you know the formula seems to be about 30% to 40% of the white vote, 9 to to 95 to 98% of the african-american vote. and the substantial part of the young vote. that's the formula for democrats in the south. >> the democratic party needs to concentrate on promoting and listening to black people. because obviously we're with them. in huge numbers, they need to start listening to us. listening to our concerns, and putting people in leadership positions who can make decisions. jones, he got what, 40% of the white vote of the white women vote? which means 60% voted against him. that's a big number and the democratic party needs to know where their bread and butter is buttered and made and listen to us. >> adrian, you're going to keep going in other states, besides alabama?

>> there's a tremendous amount of opportunity in the south we know that stacy abrams is running in georgia. we know that andrew gillham is running in florida. there's a tremendous amount of opportunity there. but also in the midwest so we'll make some decisions about where we're going to next. >> the very two races we'll talk about in our next block. thank you all for being here, appreciate you guys. coming up in our next hour, the man who actually wrote the "art of the deal" is back on "a.m. joy." and it really shows. we've got auto insurance, homeowners insurance. had an accident with a vehicle, i actually called usaa before we called the police. usaa was there hands-on very quick very prompt. i feel like we're being handled as people that actually have a genuine need. we're the webber family and we are usaa members for life. usaa, get your insurance quote today. ♪ think of your fellow man, lend him a helping hand, ♪

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this is a wakeup call for democrats. your democrats, and i told mr. jones this and i love doug. they have taken the black vote and the poor vote for granted for a long time. it's time for thet to get off their ass and start making life better for black folks and people who are poor. >> former nba star charles barkley told it. making it plain that african-americans can and will deliver elections for the democratic party. if the party delivers for them. in tuesday's senate race in alabama, 96% of black voters backed democratic candidate doug jones. within that cohort. 98% of black women helped propel jones' victory over roy moore. dnc chair tom perez was quick to

vote we won in alabama and virginia because black women led us to victory. black women are the backbone of the democratic party and we can't take that for granted. are democrats learning? joining us now, political strategist let's go to you ladies first. you were part of that letter to tom perez essentially saying the party's taking black women for granted, you'd to stop. do you see change and movement? >> i see movement and i'm happy about it. you just put up that tweet from the chairman. that's the kind of movement we wanted to see. the party has also talked about how they've invested in alabama and georgia. they told us highwow they inves on the ground. they hire consultants to do the work that the party did. the majority of that work in alabama and virginia happened from people on the ground and in

that community. this is the movement we wanted to see. we continue to watch. my voice won't go down because i want to push this party to be better. >> karen, tom perez back on july 1st, when he was on this show addressing the open letter that talked about -- they called for a meeting to really sit down with black women and talk about the issues. >> the democratic party has to up our game. we have to do a better job of addressing and including and engaging the african-american women community. we haven't done that in the past. we talked about how can we target opportunities there in some of the state races for state legislature where there are maybe african-american women running in those races and we

can perhaps invest resources to help them win. >> there are some african-american women that happen to be running that he could help, that the democratic party could help. staci adrbrams is running for governor in georgia. pam keith is running in district 18 in florida. we have andrew gillam running for florida governor. >> that's part of why what happened in alabama but also let's remember in virginia and in new jersey and across this country where you had black women not only help deliver the success of a number of candid e candidates but also ran themselves and put themselves out there and won in places where people said we can't win. i am so sick of my party. this was a big piece of the 50

state strategy which i was a big part of under governor dean which says stop that nonsense, we can win everywhere if we invest and do the work. as a black women, i don't want to be referred to as the backbone of the party. i'm a swing voter. you have to work for it. you have to earn it. you have to show up. governor dean used to say it is a sign of respect to show up and ask people for their vote. i also believe if we don't, then shame on us. because if people don't even hear our argument, then they have no other choice. i hope that the party is actually very serious about getting back to what governor dean tried to start during my time at the dnc with the 50-state strategy. here's a couple pieces that were so important. it's not just about investing in the state parties, but also governor dean required that the

people who were hired reflect the diversity of that state. that's a really big point. authenticity really matters. you have to have people who look like and sound like and share the experiences of the people whose vote they're trying to court. i hope this also lays to rest the silly notion that black folks won't turn out unless there's a black person at the top of the ticket. in the case of staci abrams whose fund-raising has been increasing since the alabama win because people were like, oh, maybe black folks will turn out. of course we will if you do the work. they tried to tell staci abrams that she can't win because she's a black woman in the state of georgia. shame on any democrat who doesn't support her. >> the 50-state strategy said that you need to not ignore the south. the south is still where the majority of african-americans live. it's still written off. states would have 30 and 35%

african-american populations. what needs to be done by the party to make those viable states. >> i really like this point of being perceived as swing voters. we have been. we have not always had representation in terms of candidates on the ballot. we've always had to choose between candidates who may not look like us, may not come from our communities and just look at them in terms of issues and what they are promising in terms of delivering. in terms of what the party needs to do, one is invest earlier. in 2014 when we ran -- i personally ran programs in georgia and ohio, one having an audience and speaking directly to black women, which often campaigns don't do. those voters who vote in presidentials but not in midterms or in primaries. and talking to them about what

their issue mean early. >> and not showing up at their chir churches. >> we saw it increased 10% in not only enthusiasm but in turnout. it's possible to do and the party needs to do it early. >> one really quick point. don't forget the other thing in alabama voter protection was really important because the hurdles were outrageous for what black people had to do to get to vote. >> absolutely. all great points. we're going to have to come back and do more of this. by the way, tune in tomorrow because we will have dnc chairman tom perez on the show and he will answer some of these questions. when you think of saving money,

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these allegations are credible, they are numerous. i've heard these women's testimony and many of them are heartbreaking. president trump should resign his position. >> welcome back. after leading the charge in forcing out a fellow democrat minnesota senator al franken, new york senator kristen gilibrand faced questions.

she did in fact call on trump to resign, making her the fourth senator to do so. donald trump could have tweeted about any of them but he chose to go after gillibrand. he tweeted someone who would come to my office begging for campaign contributions and would do anything for them is now in the ring fighting against trump. many democrats and gillibrand herself saw that tweet for what it was, a demeaning and sexist smear aimed at a united states senator. she responded on the today show on wednesday. >> let me be blunt about it. did you interpret that tweet as a sexual reference, that you would trade sexual favors for campaign cash? >> certainly that's how i and many people read it. and it was certainly just a

sexist smear, intended to silence me. i'm not going to be silenced on this issue. >> the accusations against donald trump are now finally back in the spotlight. this time there's a growing movement to finally hold him accountable. joini ining me is joan walsh an richard painter and karen finney. that attack was so gross that it's hard to believe that a grown man would tweet that, would write that down and hit send. >> such a pig. >> it did of course highlight number one trump's tendency to go after women because three men had called for it first. but in the end, does it wind up boosting kristen gillibrand? >> i think it helped her out a lot. you and i both know that when she called for senator franken to resign, i don't think that she necessarily led the movement, but she was the first on that day when i think the

seventh allegation came out. suddenly it was like dominos. all day long people were calling for him to leave. and a lot of -- even though i kind of reluctantly joined that call, a lot of democrats were mad at me and senator gillibrand for seeming to force the hand of this great senator. there are so many democrats that are so sick of the democratic party not standing up and fighting and being baited into things like tossing their members under the bus that i think she was in a lot of hot water. the president, i think he helped her out. >> not only that, but the things she said about bill clinton drew a very sharp rebuke from a long time aide to the clintons who had a lot to say about what she said about clinton. i want to go back to the franken

issue. richard painter, you're constituent of senator franken who had said it was unfair that franken didn't get his day in court. this is what senator franken said himself in the speech where he announced his resignation. >> i of all people am i ware there is some irony in the fact that i am leaving while a man who has bragged on tape about his history of sexual assault sits in the oval office and a man who has repeatedly preyed on young girls campaigns for the senate with the full support of his party. >> that latter part of course referring to roy moore. are you of the opinion that if al franken was forced to step down in part because of women

sag saying that he has to go, if he has to go then president trump ought to face consequences. >> president trump needs to resign or be impeached immediately. on this issue i disagree with senator gillibrand and other who is called for senator franken to resign. we needed due process, we needed to find out what happened. we needed to find out the roger stone connection, the fox connection. there are a lot of things that are suspicious about what happened with al franken. i don't think the party bosses should be throwing out a senator. i think it's proper to handle these type of allegations through an investigation where we find out the facts. but i have to say that even though i disagree with senator gillibrand on that and i strongly disagree with her about bill clinton, i think the american people made that very clear in retaliating against the republicans in the 1998 allegations. i think it's disgusting that the president of the united states refers to a senator as a whore

on twitter and another senator referred to as pocahontas. he is psychologically deranged and they seriously need to think about removing him under the 25th amendment of the constitution if they don't choose to impeach him. >> there are not a few democrats that feel that way. richard painter is a republican. if you look at the senate democrats who have called on trump to resign they include kamala harris, bernie sanders and others. as a matter of politics, at this stage having taken the stand that a lot of democrats did against senator franken, isn't this now the default position of anyone who wants to run for president, that donald trump must go? >> that may be the case. this is why we have to elevate this conversation.

we talked about this around al franken. i actually wasn't for just ousting franken without a process. i personally believe that certainly when it comes to congress, as it should be everywhere, there should be a set standard of conduct and a set process by which to enforce that standard, period. and i, as much as i hate to say it, i would afford that same process to the president of the united states. but i think there's two things we need to be concerned about. a, we're going to lose in this very important -- we need this to not just be a moment. this needs to be a real reckoning. and the only way it becomes a reckoning is if we take it out of politics. the only way we do that is if we stay consistent about what it is that should be happening whether you're a member of congress or you're a ceo or you are harvey weinstein. regardless of who you are, there

should be -- >> one standard. >> but then a process. in the instance of someone like harvey, he stepped down because there was plenty of evidence mounting and they knew it was time. i'm not comfortable with this sort of calling for people to step down and then having them step down, unless there is irrefutable evidence out in the public. i think there still should be a process. but you're right. that is the danger in this moment that it becomes political when it needs to be so much more than this. think about the message that the defeat of roy moore sent to young girls around this country snernl certainly in alabama, your voices matter. i hope that for any young girl watching this who may be being abused or any woman frankly, i hope they believe now they can come forward and be believed and that there will be a fair process. that's got to be what this is about.

>> this is kristen gillibrand talking about the question with donald trump's accusinger why thing things are different now. >> some of the accusers of president trump have come forward again recently, this week publicly, because obviously they came out before the election and he was still elected. do you think times have changed in a year such that these accusations will be listened to in a different way now? >> yes, i do. i think this is a moment in time unlike any other with the me too movement. women are feeling the ability to tell what happened to them, some of the worst moments they've lived and term it publicly. that is powerful and it is affecting everything. people are looking for justice. >> she didn't just come to this issue. she's been very forward leaning on the issue of sexual assault in the military as well. on the question of what the public thinks about donald trump and the allegations against him,

which have not manifested any consequences yet, 53% of people recently polled say he should resign over these allegations. 53% believe the women. >> i have to say on the day that senator franken announced his resignation i wrote that it should trigger an investigation of donald trump, not necessarily that he should be asked to resign, which he should for lots of reasons. but i really thought the democrats were missing an opportunity to bring this back and part of the reason people were so angry about what was done to senator franken -- i've never been more ambivalent in my life. democrats cannot unilaterally disarm on this question. you and i talked about this two or three weeks ago, that they were being set up and that if al franken resigned, their default

was going to be he admitted something, he's guilty. donald trump has admitted nothing. he's innocent. we can't fall for that again and again. i thought that the tradeoff had to be that they start some kind of investigative process. we'll really starting to hear that drum beat. i think it's making a lot of women and men happier with the situation now. they seem like they have a spine. and they understand that the me too movement in some ways was ignited by the sight of this serial abuser/pret tod toabuser into the oval office. >> thank you guys. coming up, donald trump is making grave decisions about the water you drink and the air you breathe. that's next. breathe freely fast with vicks sinex.

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so this is what we have now. this is where we were in 1960. and when we're finished which won't be in too long a period of time, we will be less than where we were in 1960 and we will have a great regulatory climate. >> donald trump thinks that standing in front of a giant stack of blank paper and also

taking government regulation back to where it was in 1960 will make america great again. he wants to do away with the obama administration's bank regulations that were designed to stave off another financial crisis. he's already repealed regulations that made it harder for people with certain mental disabilities to buy guns. and he wants to open up our national parks to drilling and development. a time of smog and pollution and cars discarded in rivers were common across the country. how far will trump's regulatory rollback continue to go and who stands to gain from it? just to make the point one more time that bloomberg did report that the papers were blank, the

papers were blank, but the ideas behind them were real. donald trump has already eliminated the federal mandate for birth control, repeal the rule that limited coal mining operations near streams, cut size of two national monuments to development. and the cost of savings that he's touting, $570 million in annual savings compared to $6.1 billion for i.c.e., the organization that deports people's grannies. >> they have started to write legulatio regulations around toxic

borillborill borilium. this causes lung disease and is linked to one of the most deadly cancers. these are some of the things that are happening that people don't know about, because the show that trump is putting on right now is capturing so much attention. there are real impacts on real people's lives that are far worse than anything that we're seeing publicly, the tweets and the different things. while all of that is happening, he is systemically doing things that can cause real pain in people's lives. >> you lived in new jersey. i was in new jersey and i was in new york at the same time when the needles used to wash up on the shore on the beaches in new york and new jersey because of deregulation and hospitals could just dump their stuff into the water. does this kind of deregulation cause a business to hire more people because they can dump their needles on the beach?

>> no. it does cause these things to happen happen. he's creating an environment where we are going to go back to these days. this needs to get much more attention. the interesting thing is they're not really rolling back regulations or protections or red tape for small business owners. all of these dismantling of protections are for big corporations, ultra rich donor driven big corporation give-aways again on the backs of the rest of us. >> charlie sykes, the epa has slowed down on cases filed against polluters. during the first nine months under scott pruitt's leadership, what is this republican obsession with deregulation about?

because it doesn't seem that it's about the ordinary person who needs to breathe and drink clean water? >> when i was watching that video of donald trump standing in front of all those pages, kind of reminded me of the emperor joseph who told mozart, nice job but there are too many notes. you're getting this sort of crude picture of, hey, let's go back to 1960 before we had any of these occupational regulations. a lot of these are being scrapped at the behest of some of the new swamp creature that is the trump administration has brought in. you do wonder in secret who is

is actually pulling the strings. somewhat ironic considering the r republicans just unveiled an 1100 page tax bill last night. apparently donald trump is not against all paperwork. >> i understand why the koch br brothers would be against deregulation. i get why big business or wall street would want to be deregulated, so they can reopen the casino that crashed the economy in 2008. i get why the rich and corporations want deregulation. how did republicans pull off this parlor trick of getting your ordinary rank and file republican to cheer for deregulation too? >> going back to the obama administration, you heard the republicans in congress talk about the regulatory tsunami

that was being inflicted on businesses by president obama. this issing this they've been talking about pretty much for the last eight years. now we're seeing a reaction. they have to support it because they spent the last eight years complaining about one president. when trump tries to undo basically everything that president obama did, there's nothing they can say about it. the fact this is a process that's happen right now with zero transparency, this isn't recommendations being made to congress and vote on and take something away. this is being done by executive fiat. that's incredibly dangerous. we don't even know who comes to the white house to meet with the president. they got rid of the white house logs, making them public. >> you know donald trump having been on the aplen tis witprenti. he likes to be unfettered in the

real estate market. he's running the government essentially the same way he ran his business. >> exactly. when he was in new york in particular, he's known for steam rolling communities in order to get these projects done. trump soho was problematic even before the controversy with it because the community didn't want that hotel. despite that, he went in, he steam rolled the local community. he's done that in many communities around the world. he's taking that same approach where it's basically corruption, lawlessness and he's applying it to how he runs the path si. >>. >> how is it that republicans have managed to convince ordinary voters that it is good

for them to have more pollution in the streams, food for them to have smog in the air, good for them to give the rich whatever it is they want. >> this has been a republican mantra for years. he also made a very important point. keep in mind that the reason the president is able to do this unilaterally is because we have cre ceded so much power to the legislative state. where was the process in imposing these regulations and also in repealing these regulations. this would be a moment to step pack and go has the presidency become too powerful. has the administrative state become too powerful that they could do this. for the last 20 years this has been a consistent republican mantra about too much regulation. it has made us unkpeticompetitit has killed jobs. >> where's bannon?

i thought he was a populist. >> he's a populist as long as it suits his own personal interest. he's not an idealogue. he's out there to destroy the pillars that uphold our public. he doesn't build things. he tears them down. that's the biggest hypocrisy for steve. it's all about disruption and chaos because that's where he thrives. and there is one instance where the trump administration is actually adding regulations. it involves the important work of america's public health agency. the "washington post" reports that officials at the cdc have been told they cannot use seven words or phrases in budget documents. the forbidden words are

vulnerable, entitlement, diversity, transgender, fetus, evidence-based and science-based. employees at the cdc are reportedly outraged, of course. up next, yet another unqualified trump judicial nominee embarrasses himself. mike and i are both veterans, both served in the navy. i do outrank my husband, not just being in the military, but at home. she thinks she's the boss. she only had me by one grade. we bought our first home together in 2010. his family had used another insurance product but i was like well i've had usaa for a while, why don't we call and check the rates? it was an instant savings and i should've changed a long time ago. there's no point in looking elsewhere really. we're the tenneys and we're usaa members for life. usaa. get your insurance quote today.

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this week donald trump zeroed in on a record for the most federal appeals court judges confirmed in a president's first year. don't celebrate too quickly. those record setting efforts which include an unusual number of nominees deemed unqualified. matthew spencer peterson had some trouble answering basic legal concepts. here's the moment of shame. >> have you ever tried a jury trial? >> no. >> civil? >> no. >> bench? >> no. >> state or federal court? >> i have not. >> have you ever taken a deposition by yourself? >> i believe no. >> okay. have you ever argued a motion in state court? >> i have not. >> have you ever argued a motion in federal court? >> no.

>> but remember, trump has the best people, only the best. speaking of, omarosa's dramatic exit is next. you need to buy a car

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and the united states postal service delivers more of those purchases to homes than anyone else in the country. because we know, even the smallest things are sometimes the biggest. what was that like for you, to sometimes be the only minority sitting there at a table? >> at times it was very difficult. i worked with 30 assistants to the president and i would look to my left and look to my right

and the only people who were there for folks that didn't look like you and i. there was a lack of diversity that i will acknowledge. and at times it was very lonely. >> omarosa is out of her job as donald trump's senior advisor. and with her goes the last vestige of racial diversity among trump's senior staff. her dramatic departure, according to the white house, involved john kelly giving her the ax before being escorted out by security. according to her, it was a long planned voluntary resignation on her own terms. it leaves the trump administration turning its lonely eyes to ben carson. i want to let you hear omarosa

on good morning america telling her story. >> there were a lot of things that i observed during the last year that i was very unhappy with, that i was very uncomfortable with, things that i observed, that i heard. i can't expand upon it because i still have to go back and work with these individuals. but when i have a chance to tell my story, quite a story to tell as the only african-american woman in this white house as a senior staff and assistant to the president, i have seen things that have made me uncomfortable, that have upset me, that have affected me deeply and emotionally that has affected my community and my people. and when i can tell my story, it is a profound story that i know the world will want to hear. >> to which robin roberts said? >> i'm sure she'll be selling that story. bye felicia. >> she got bye felicia'ed by

robin roberts. what do you know about what happened, how she was ousted? >> according to the sources in the white house that i and my white house reporting colleague report at the daily beast, she caused what several officials called a ruckus shortly after she was told that she would be let go from the trump administration. and she tried to, according to one official, quote, storm the residence to try to speak to president trump about this directly and ultimately failed to do so and was thwarted. one official told us this was the chose estclosest thing to r

they have seen in the trump white house since they got there and started working there, which is a tall bar to clear. i just want to go back to something she said earlier about being upset regarding racial issues and divisiveness in her time in the trump white house. not too long after trump mishandled the charlottesville atrocity and had a really hard time saying white supremacists and nazis are bad, omarosa was still bragging to people privately about her access to the president and how he would call her sometimes as late as or early as 3:00 a.m. or 4:00 a.m. to talk to her and solicit her advice. and so if she was completely freaked out by his handling of race issues in this country, particularly after charlottesville, it did not really come through in private. but if she's saying that now,

your viewers can decide if they want to take that at face value. >> jason, you had a famous confrontation with omarosa. she says in her interview that she's been doing since then that one of her concerns was that she saw things she found disturbing for my community and my people. she was in charge of the -- can you explain what it was that omarosa was doing that made her sort of the go between between trump world and the african-american community? >> what she did was stick with trump for 14 years. when i was on that panel in abj chr which lots of people have seen, i asked her, i said what do you

do? if you could tell us what you do, it might have a lot to do with why and how people are criticizing you. between that question and what happened with the daily beast, omarosa has never done a good job of explaining what she did. she was a public liaison for communications, but no one knew what that was accomplishing. if her claim to the white house was the hbcu mess, she never made her job clear. the moment that general kelly was in that place, there was a bullseye on her and she was never going to be effective. >> what is she going to do now? she's going out. obviously i think she's teeing up a book she'd like to write, that she wants to tell her story or sell her story.

that that's legitimate. who is her audience? she's now really talking about the black community in a very forthright way. is that the audience that's going to buy this book? what does she do about trump and charlottesville? >> she's going to have a very tough time. now she's on the outs with the administration and so all the people who were sort of following her because they were trump supporters and she was a black woman who was supporting trump so they can say, look, weir not racist. that crowd is going to be less likely to follow her. i think you'll see her take the steve bannon route where basically she will attack all of the people around trump, but she's not going to attack trump. i think she's thinking she can still carve something out by going that route where she maintains that relationship with donald trump. >> can she make it without him? >> i think she's going to have a tough time making it without

donald trump. her entire career has been tied to donald trump, like all of her revenue sources have primarily been tied to donald trump which is why i think you won't see her attack donald trump. hell has no fury like omarosa scorned, so she will aim and target her fire at those people around trump, particularly general kelly and people who were responsible for her ouster. they're going to come under fire, but she's going to be very careful not to attack him. >> she's also spent a lot of time attacking april ryan. let's listen to her being asked if donald trump is a racist? >> many people feel that the president is at worst a racist and at best a sympathizer for white supremacists. >> donald trump is racial but he is not a racist. yes, i will acknowledge many of the exchanges particularly in the last six months have been racially charged. do we then just stop and label him as a racist?

no. >> your thoughts? she's been very strategic about going to black reporters both at abc. we actually asked for her on this show as well. we haven't been able to get her to come on yet. what do you think of what she said? >> that's kind of like saying harvey weinstein is very sexual but he's not a sexist. he's kind of rapy but -- does it really matter if donald trump is actually a racist when he provides aid and comfort to racist organizations? does it really matter if donald trump uses the n-word when he empowers jeff sessions who says that black lives matter is more of a terrorist threat than isis? this question of whether somebody is actually racist means less than the policies they have. omarosa always wants to play this line and dance around in the middle. it doesn't really matter. you have no integrity certainly with the african-american

community if you're always trying to justify behavior that from a pure policy standpoint is openly hostile to people of color. doesn't make any sense. >> do you detect in any of the reporting that -- i've heard a little bit of this, that essentially the administration is empowering particularly black republicans who have been deeply at odds with omarosa to go ahead and attack her now? >> i've yet to confirm that myself so i can't quite comment on that. back to what we were discussing early for a moment. omaro omarosa's concerns in the white house from everybody i've spoken to from people who interacted with her, her priority was not minority outreach or black outreach. it was looking out for omarosa. that's the bottom line. >> with that, we will call timeout on this segment. thank you guys very much. coming up at the top of the hour, new reaction to the gop tax plan as it moves closer to reality.

up next, the real author of "the art of the deal." what do you think? hate to play devil's advocate but... i kind of feel like it's a game changer. i wouldn't go that far. are you there? he's probably on mute. yeah... gary won't like it. why? because he's gary. (phone ringing) what? keep going! yeah... (laughs) (voice on phone) it's not millennial enough. there are a lot of ways to say no. thank you so much. thank you! so we're doing it. yes! "we got a yes!" start saying yes to your company's best ideas. let us help with money and know-how, so you can get business done. american express open.

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everybody knows it. that was a democrat hoax. it was an excuse for losing the election and it should have never been this way where they spent all these millions of dollars. >> donald trump is so thin-skinned about the russia gate investigation that according to the "washington post" his daily intelligence update known as the president's daily brief is often structured to avoid upsetting him. a former intelligence official told the post that if you talk about russia meddling, interference, that takes the pdb off the rails. tony, just another piece from that epic "washington post" article. russian related intelligence that might draw trump's ire is in some cases included only in the written asosessment and not raised orally. they're afraid he'll just explode and they think he won't read. >> well, he won't read because he doesn't read.

he's operating inside the white house both like a cult leader -- so i do think he has people essentially hypnotized. i think the notion that he won't go -- him is exactly right because she's terrified. he's created that atmosphere of terror. what he's really doing, what the bottom line is right now is as he tries to discredit the fbi and the justice department and he mobilizes the republicans to go along with that, he is moving toward a police state. let's not kid ourselves. he wants to go and get. erik prince and put together a mercenary separate army. he wants to use the most available terrorist event to be able to declare martial law, to be able to put into effect a world in which he controls it completely. and then he has this little mafia family inside the white

house that will run the game. >> and we talked about this a little bit last night with chris matthews on "hardball" and i made the point that americans cannot wrap their heads around that idea because we're not familiar with an erdogan-type government or putin-type government. all over the world you have a family that runs the country, an insular fan base that is rabidly for the leader no matter what he does and then the resistance on the outside trying to get in. donald trump -- are you surprised by the swiftness with which he has corrupted and recruited the republican party? you have people on capitol hill who sound exactly like donald trump every day, trying to exonerate him and declare robert mueller to be a criminal. >> well, it shows you how effective he is at co-opting anyone who he has any chance of getting on his side and it does say something pretty awful about the republican party. it is -- it is an extreme party now. yes, i am surprised.

not because i thought that the republicans were about to stand up to him, but i believe that they will end up supporting -- for example, if mueller comes out, indicts him, finds him guilty or charges him with obstruction of justice, i fully expect the republicans to jump on board, just like they did with the health care bill. >> jump onboard with trump and say what he said is invalid? >> absolutely. i cannot see a circumstance in which the republicans are going to go after him. is there any evidence this year that the republicans will stand up to him? one or two people -- one or two republicans on the health care bill. otherwise almost nothing. >> yeah. and does he need all of those components? he has basically state-run media in terms of fox and all these right-wing media outlets fully for him. they're already ready to have mueller arrested as an enemy of the state. but republicans, even lindsey grahams touting how beautiful

mar-a-lago is. do you see any sort of heroism on the republican side, anyone who's willing to stop this? >> no. corker signed on with the tax bill, notwithstanding the fact that he said that he could not tolerate large deficits. >> is it for money? is it because they're going to personally profit? >> i don't think for corker it's about profiting. i think it's really a loss of recognition of a bigger reality, of the fact that the world is actually at risk. i think you get seduced into it. i do think that the democrats have to mobilize an equally powerful force that really is focused specifically and uniquely on opposing the emergence of a police state. if the democrats don't do that, they're once again ceding territory to people who are more extreme and willing to do things that they're not. >> so the public seems to really understand what's happening in a way that the republicans are not -- pretending not to see. there was a question that was asked, a quinnipiac poll of 1211 people asked what are the top

things that you think of when you talk about trump. idiot, liar, incompetent, leader, strong, we won't say a-hole, great moron, air gaunt, disgusting, unqualified. >> it's a grab bag of 80% hideous words and 20% okay words. it's not a good one. we know that his disapproval rate is now two-thirds of america. two-thirds of america means that a dramatic percentage of those who voted for trump now oppose him. and yet because of the way the presidency has been invested with so much power and the republicans are willing to sacrifice their role as a separate -- >> co-equal branch. >> political branch, you've got him able as part of a significant minority to do things that he ought not be able to do. >> lastly, knowing him, what does the fact knowing that he's so disliked do to his psyche?

>> it is the controlling issue here. he does not have ideology even today. if the left happened to be the people who loved him, donald trump would be left. what he's been reduced to is this small group of extremists who are now the only ones who will give him the praise and adoration that he needs. therefore, he is pitching everything to them. >> scary world that we live in. do you have hope that this trumpism, this thing that we're experiencing, as you said this roll toward a police state will be rolled back? >> well, i have two feelings and you have to live in a complex world right now. i have one feeling that does say i do have my passport ready. that's one of the suggestions that timothy schneider says you should. and then i have another feeling that says there's still a deep well of more evolved human beings and thinkings that i hope and pray and want to believe will step up in the months ahead

and save the republic. >> tony schwartz. it's terrifying talking to you, but i always do appreciate you coming here and telling us the insights that only you would have. >> you always get me talking in the most apocalyptic terms. is that you? >> it may be me. thank you very much. my experience with usaa has been excellent. they always refer to me as master sergeant. they really appreciate the military family, and it really shows. we've got auto insurance, homeowners insurance. had an accident with a vehicle, i actually called usaa before we called the police.

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as we look at those great pictures of rockefeller plaza, look at all those people out there skating, having fun and enjoying the tree. the tree! that is our show for today. thanks for watching.

"a.m. joy" is back tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern. alex witt is next. we should be out there skating. >> i know, my festive friend. >> and we're matchy matchy with our colors again. >> if you heard me laughing way too audibly with tony schwartz, sorry about that. >> we laugh about the apocalypse. >> thank you so much. good day to all of you. i'm alex witt here at msnbc world headquarters. it is high noon in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west and here's what's happening right now. the massive tax plan comes one step closer to reality. republicans say they have the votes, but what does it all mean for you? >> i think it's going to do very, very well. >> where are all the benefits going? the vast majority are going to the wealthy. >> also, the president trashing the fbi and the russia investigation and he's not ruling out a pardon for former national security advisor michael flynn. the seven words you can never say at the