morning. "morning joe" starts right now. >> the joint committee on taxation, just released a report that found by 2027 nearly 145 million middle class families under $200,000 will either get tax hikes -- can we have order, mr. president? >> the senate will be in order. >> this is serious stuff. we believe are you messing up america. you can pay attention for a couple of minutes. >> do you believe there is a need for republicans to go out and sell this bill given how america is currently viewing it? >> absolutely. we're looking forward it to. my view of this, if we can't seth sell this to the american people, we might as well go into another line of work. >> senator mitch mcconnell agrees they have work to do, it's a good thing. most recent polling shows the

bill is extremely unpopular. still the $1.5 trillion tax bill passed early in a vote. earlier it thought it passed it too, procedural violation requires them to take a new vote on the bill today, this morning, if it does, president trump says he will take reporter's questions this afternoon. good morning, it's wednesday, december 20ing. with us, we have veteran columnist mike barnical, walk anchor for bbc, world news america catty kay, noah rahman, host of casey d.c. on msnbc. case hunt. mika has the morning off. we will get to joe in a moment. we should point out catty kay announced yesterday 11:30 p.m. january 2nd your bbc program will be aired in the charlie rose shot. congratulations. >> great. i have been doing this, it's

about trump, brexit. everything happening in europe this extraordinary time we are living in. pbs is picking it up 11:30 p.m. january 2nd. >> more catty kay is a good ings thing. >> that's what my kids say. >> new polling shows a margin 2-1 passing the tax bill is a bad idea him they told the wall street poll president trump's tax be sill a bad idea. up six points since okay. 24% say it's a good idea, roughly the same from two months ago, 57% of trump voters think it's a good idea and 63 of republicans, 29% of whites think the tax bill is good. 28% of rural americans do, when asked who it is designed to help the most. 68% say corporations and the wealthy, 22% say all equally, 7% say middle class americans,

casey, we will get to those in a moment. obviously, this is a turning point, this is a generational moment for tax reform, he says for the country. 30 years or so in the making since the last major tax reform watch are the implications of this and what is the divide on capitol hill right now? >> reporter: pick your metaphor, cory gardner in the senate likes to say, it's the first major tax reform since "top gun" was in theaters. paul ryan has been working on this for decades they are selling this as a huge victory designed to help all americans. i think the reality of it is, obviously, a little bit more complicated. this bill is not as simple and straight forward as a lot of the republican leaders initially set out to have it be. quite frankly the special interests, lobbyists, others got if and in some ways, what wheer seeing is a rebalancing of who wins and who loses.

now, they do say these business tax cuts are going to ultimately spur job creation. that's kind of an ideological debate. democrats believe that's not the case. but the reality is this will affect every single person in america and it's likely going to be what they are judge on the 2018. there was a calculation, if they didn't get this done, they were toast. forget it. they were going to lose their elections, now i think they're counting on americans seeing withholding from their paychecks start income february, checking those dots, saying, hey, this helps me. i think whether or not they do is still an open question. >> so joe you have known paul ryan for a very long time. can you see it as you hit that gavel yesterday. this was a moment he had been working for, his entire professional career. he has to finish the vote. obviously, this was the culmination, not just for. . but for many republicans of a generational as paul ryan said move here. >> well, for paul ryan, yeah, it's his lifetime work. it's what he has been pushing to do from a very early age from

the time i knew him, first knew him on the hill when he was 22, 23-years-old, this is his life work and whether you agree with paul ryan or fought, that fact cannot be denied, no a rothman the question is, what is this going to mean in the long term? obviously, most importantly for american workers, but also, even though the republicans haven't done, i don't think a great job in messaging this or their health care efforts, do you think this is actually a bill that could ends up helping them in the long run politically? >> i think it could. it depends on the economic impact. obviously, the reduction in the corporate rate is the big issue here. they tinker with the individual rates the corporate rate down from the highest in the developed world. still higher than european average, nevertheless, committive now will spur growth it has to.

you can't inject that much capital into the economy without it having some impact. now the extent to which the impact will be felt by voters is the real issue here. politically, if ruin zitsing that people will look at their withholding and see a 1.6% and say, aha, i will reward republicans for this, secondarily, we got a budget deficit here. that's a biggser. and republicans now have to look at cutting mandatory non-discretionary spending in an election year. that seems like a big haul. >> a very big haul. it will be made so much harder with the tax cut. few believe estimates will put us 1.5 trillion deeper into debt. mike barnical, that makes future cuts seem even more savage. democrats, bill clinton, he back in the '90s who was his attack line and it worked was, those

republicans are cutting medicare to pay for tax cuts for the rich. those republicans are cutting benefits for the poorest americans to pay for the tax cuts for the rich. whatever we did, it was always turned around and turned back to that punch leicester and i'm not so sure that the republicans didn't walk right into that trap in 2018, despite the fact there have been a lot of business people saying it's insane that the united states has the highest corporate tags rate in the world. so how does this wash out for them? >> well, joe, i'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the intricacies of this tax bill that we would be passing in today. you know i can't even balance a checkbook back in the days when people had checkbooks. but i have been stunned at the number of people, ord fare people, who are worried about the size of the debt that's

going to be incurred as a result of this tax bill. i actually heard a lot of people speaking about it. again, ordinary people. the other aspect of this bill that is really threatening to the way laws have passed, the way this country survives and prospers is the increased and continuing polarization that surrounded this bill and the idea that one particular party, the republican party went out of its way to remove 13 million people from the health roles and are proud of it and the fact that the bill was no hearings on the bill, no real communication back and forth between republicans and democrats, noah said the generation amountering tax bill. it's really a continuation of a system, it has to be approved. it has to be addressed. or else we will be in bigger trouble than we are today. >> there is a continuation of a system that right now, unfortunately, just doesn't work

and it certainly didn't, hasn't worked effectively for the past 15 or 20 years, in part, catty kay, because of divisions, few look at what's happening in the united states and great britain. you look at what's happening in germany, you have autocrats across the globe, it's almost like we're going back to cold war debates about what works and what doesn't work. you look at how tied up congress is and how partisan congress is and they can't even have a debate, an open debate on the floor and have regular order. you look at teresa may failing with brexit votes and having a government together but fought really having a government together t. same thing with angela merkel in germany. you can begin to make an argue if you are vladimir putin than western style democracies just don't work anymore. >> yeah, if you take this tax bill as an exact exam of that, joe, perhaps one of the most interesting things is the fact

that you had conservative democrats, people like joe manchin, who said, i was an easy get on this bill, i could have been got, republicans could have brought me over to their side. what they chose to do with this bill was too egregious for somebody like joe manchin, manchin says they decided to make the tax bill for corporations, fought for average americans, at that point he couldn't support it. tester, another one that said, look, lyme i'm a fiscal conservative, montana is a fiscal conservatives, it matters that they build up the tax bill. this is just taxing the next generation, putting an onerous burden on our children. when they say this is not a bill that we can go along with. then you know in the united states, can you not reform the economy without some measure of bipartisanship and this bill has absolutely none of that. >> when, willie, i, you know, i've always been a big supporter

of cutting taxes. i believe the government taxes too much. i think they take too much of american's money, too much of workers' money. i believed that before i moved to connecticut and paid 55% of every dollar in taxes. in this case, it seems like this is the wrong tax cut at the wrong time directed at the wrong people, because if you look at our biggest problems, as a conservative, i think it's a national debt. that adds $1.5 trillion to the national debt. it doesn't pay for itself, regardless of what everybody tells you, secondly, our xi is humming at a record rate. we've had more corporations at least, more stockmarket highs and third the rich are getting richer. this is alan greenspan that leftist marxist, himself, he said sometime ago the greatest

threat to american-style capitalism was income disparity, the rich were getting richer the poor were getting poorer. this adds fuel to that fire as well as the national debt. it just doesn't seem to make sense if are you a conserve tiver. >> well the national debt is the primary reason i heard principle conservatives say i can't abide by the bill. we're adding too much to the debt. we say we are fiscally conservative. we ought to be. there was a contradiction in what paul ryan said in his speech before the vote on the house floor, he said this economy has been limping along, he talked about a sluggish economy just as you have president trump tweeting almost every day how the economy is exploding under his presidency the stockmarket is up. corporate gains, et set remarks et cetera, the unemployment rate is down, there is an internal contradiction in there. casey hunt, i will ask you want we talked of the politics of it, what's in the bill? interest right. >> what are the impacts? you heard mitch mcconnell saying

we haven't communicated this enough. this is, in fact, a middle class tax cut. what president trump calls a great christmas gift. critics say it benefits wealthy people. there is the repeal of the individual mandate, they have obamacare, it's all wrapped into this bundle. so what's the truth about who benefits from this deal? >> well, i think in part they haven't messaged it. because it's hard to message. it's incredibly complicated. and you can argue it in many ways from both sides who it helps t. top lines the corporate rate cut is really the central piece of this from 35% to 21%. now, real tax rates are a little bit different, economicled for each company involved. but this does simplify that overall. it does make adjustments to individual tax cut rates. so most people will see a top line rate cut as part of this bill. they will receive help from an increased child tax credit. that's something marco rubio fought for as kind of the last

minute here. people also see a double standard deduction. so what that likely means is that most people will file a more simple, simplified version of their taxes. it will be less likely you will itemize your deductions, but this is also something that's going to hurt people in high tax states. we talked a lot about this, places like new jersey, potentially connecticut, where joe is. where you can't deduct as many state and local taxes as you would have under current law. so i think the central question here is what are businesses going to do with this windfall and republicans seep saying, look, they will hire more people. they will increase wages. democrats say, they're going to help their shareholders. you know, our economy is shifting in kind of a fundamental way. there are a lot more people working in the gig xi. they don't necessarily have salary and benefits. they're not necessarily paying taxes like american versus traditionally. i think there will be a real question here for corporations who will see benefits from this

are they going to keep it for themselves and take higher profits, especially and pay out to shareholders? or will they build and insooes? >> gary coen asked ceos, what will they do with it, how many will reinvest it in jobs and the economy? very few put their hands up. that's not the intention the money will come back and lit go to shareholders. it's interesting, noia you sound circumspect how this will boost growth? is it going to boost growth to the degree some republicans are say something it will depend on what ceos decide to do with that return. >> i don't know. anybody know what is will happen to the economy next year, there is every prospect as you said the economy is doing very well. we're almost at new employment. growth two consecutive quarters. this could overheat the economy. we could get to it's an inflation as a result of this we had low inflation for a long time.

we don't know t. dynamics scoring being what it is the notion that corporations will simply sit on this windfall and won't reinvest in capital doesn't make a lot of sense unless are you really terrified of what the future will bring. we have a lot of indications they shouldn't be terrified of what the future will bring we've had some stability in the commitment i am hopeful. but it is hope. i don't think anybody else has anything more than that. >> joe, we will find out about the impact of this tax bill within a fairly reasonable period of time. maybe six months to a year. can you get a sense of it. >> that the corporate tax rate going to 21%, corporate tax rate getting cut is a good thing. i don't know about 21%. it's a good thing, but as casey pointed out, noah alluded to, what will happen to the money that corporations make? are they going to hire more people or, more importantly, over the next six months to a year, if you are out there, makeing $75,000, $95,000.

you got a couple of kids, are you going to see an immediate impact, a change in your life due to this tax cut in your paycheck you get every week or every two weeks? are corporations going to give people like that works are benefits somewhat from the tax cut they will get? are they going to give them something they haven't received in real terms in maybe a decade, a significant pay increase? that's what we will find out about. that's what this bill will live or die on. >> no no they're not going to see. that it goes back to catty bringing up the question when they asked ceos, if you get a tax cut will you reinvest? hardly anybody raised their hands, i'm say we, i have been a republican all my adult life up until about six months ago, we republicans have been stuck in a time warp and we think

everything is northeastern 81 or 1982 that we are always having to increase our defense spending because we're going after the soviets. or we have to cut taxes because the tax rate is 75% and if we just give corporations a tax cut, well, they're going to invest in more factories, they're going to add more assembly lines, they are going to bring more americans streaming into the plant, catty kay, in 2017, i'm not being cynical here. this is just a matter of fact, when corporations get tax cuts like these in this economy, they buy back stock. >> yeah. >> they are as productive as they want to be that they don't need more people streaming into their plants to create goods or services, but what they will do is make money, catty, we may even see the gdp go up. but where is that growth going to be?

it's going to be because of a tax cut leak this, where that growth has been over the past decade. the top 1%, will get richer just as they have at a frightening rate over the past, ten, 15, 20 years in the united states, which far outpaces any other country in the west for having the 1%, having the most money. this only adds to that, does it not? >> yeah, you know, it was interesting. the united nationsrerepertoire will increase in the united states because of what you outlined, the huge explosions in the financial industry over the last decade-and-a-half has benefitted the top 1% and this is going to increase that. the chances that this will not lead to shared buyed backs, instead of investing in jobs.

instead of giving people pay hikes. i find that very hard to see. those ceos were honest about what they were going to do when they were speaking to the white house. >> what was that big word you were using? >> that was and the big word and. >> a big vocabulary, january 2nd. >> with a sort of french flavor. >> exactly. still ahead on "morning joe," freedom caucus mark meadows and joe crawley both will be our guest as the house prepares to vote on tax reform for a second time this morning. plus, don't ever let someone tell you your vote does not matter. democrats and republicans are now tied for control over virginia's legislature. >> unbelievable. >> it's a single vote during a recount. we will talk to the woman that won. here's bill kierans with a look at the forecast. >> good morning, five days to christmas, we are getting to the crunch time for travel. we have a rain storm first to talk about. soaking rains this morning, few are mississippi, northern alabama, this is going to trek

through, georgia, tennessee, an umbrella day the rain is increasing. so during the day, as far as airports go, charlotte, raleigh, colombia, atlanta. it's rain, it's not ice or snow, minor to possible considerable delays with that. now we turn our attention to the west. now it's bringing snow to areas of northern portions of rockies. this will move across the country. airports today, salt lake city, possible delays, fought too bad. tomorrow's storms, kind of weak. chicago, o'hare, milwaukee to green bay, a minor problem with the little bit of snow and ice mixed in. by the time we get to friday, a lot of warm air, more rain for tennessee, by the time we get to saturday, airport problems possible, boston, all the new york city airports, philly, d.c., included in there. it could be windy. i'm get to my final map. this is the christmas day

forecast, all eyes on the northeast. there is at least the potential for a storm, especially northern and central new england. we will watch that, five days away. there is disagreement, at least a chance, kids, for a white christmas. looking at our christmas tree on 30 rock, we can't count on snowflakes to make this prettier than it is, you never know. "morning joe" will be right back. ♪ a wealth of information. a wealth of perspective. ♪ a wealth of opportunities. that's the clarity you get from fidelity wealth management. straightforward advice, tailored recommendations, tax-efficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. fidelity wealth management.

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. >> with tax reform looking all but a done deal, they will turn to a deposit shutdown with the midnight deadline fast approaching. democrats appear to be backing down to get a deal to fix the daca program. according to washington post a group of vulnerable democratic senators facing re-election and conservative states next year look like they may not withhold their support on a spending bill. the program would allow roughly

1.2 immigrants to stay in the u.s. legally. the list includes claire mccaskill and joe donnelly. jeff flake tweeted a bipartisan daca bill will be on the floor in january. it might throw a wrench getting it aid proved by the friday deadline. senate majority leader mitch mcconnell will have senator lamar alexander and patty murray to stabilize the obamacare markets to the spending bill t. payments reimburse insurers for a requirement to lower co-pays and deductibles for low income obamacare customers. they secured susan collins' vote with a promise the alexander-murray measure would become will you this year. some house republicans are refusing to support anything that props up the health law, especially if it does not

include language restricting federal funding for abortions. one of the top members of the conservative house freedom caucus, congressman jim jordan, says adding alexander murray to the bill would be a problem a. lot to unpack there, basically, there are two big things we laid out that could hold up the government shutdown, mitch mcconnell says there is no way we will shut down the government. we will see friday by midnight. >> we will see. casey, why will the democrats back down? the republicans got a win with the tax cut. they got a promise from donald trump several months ago, everybody knows they were going to fix daca in december. so why punt and hope it happens in january. why not tell the republicans, why not tell donald trump, we will hold you to your word, we're not going to support any short-term fix unless we make sure daca is taken care of? >> i think they're concerned about getting blamed for a shutdown. at the end of the day, republicans control congress.

however, as we saw when ted cruz did this, who gets blamed for something like that can be a real tricky calculation. i don't reallity they necessarily want that hanging around their neck. now i do also think there the a relatively high degree of faith that people on both sides of the aisle want to get this done t. house speaker said he wants to get this done. republicans on the senate side said they want to get this done. jeff flake's tweet may be one of the more significant markers there saying, look, we are going to do this in january. i read between the lines in that washington post piece that democrats were going to try to put this on the conservative members of their party, schumer wants to maintain his majority. he doesn't want to put those guys in a difficult position. on the other hand, he can't be seen publicly away ttackaac kwu.

right new they do not have the votes to continue to pass a vote in the house of representatives t. votes are fought there. it's not clear how they are going to corral them in the next 24 to 48 hours. >> noah, which leads to my next question, why wouldn't nancy pelosi and chuck schumer, especially nancy pleas, say, you guys run everything, you don't call us in for help on the health care reform or taxes, don't ask us to bail you out right now. few are fancy pelosi, why in the world do you give republicans a single vote? they run the house. they run the senate. they run washington, d.c. . >> right. and i don't know if democrats would actually be blamed for a shutdown. it seems like democrats never are blamed for a shutdown. >> i don't think they would. >> but the politics of this thing are actually pretty clear from a perspective outside the coast, outside the beltway. you'd be shutting do under the government in service to illegal

immigrants, whether you think that's good or not, naked political messaging or not. that's what these conservative democratic lawmakers will have to go back to the constituents, in indiana, north dakota and say we shut down illegal immigrants. i think that's bad politics. also the stakes are incredibly low, in january, everybody wants to fix this thing the president want bs it fixed. so i don't think there was very high stakes in this thing. >> you know, you will be -- >> well, i just want to say, though, mike, again, though, just the way this works, if you want to increase the debt ceiling. few want to increase the debt, it's the party in power. noah is right, there can be only one republican out of 435 in the house. if to the government were to shut down the media would blame that republican. >> you see what he was wearing. they have the vote. it's always, republicans are

always blamed for government shutdowns, no matter what. >> it's not just media bias, either, that tier party of smaller government. it only makes sense they will be blamed for shutting down the government. >> that's an act rat assessment. >> that's kinds for you to say. when it comes to government shutdowns, it's media bias, they always blame republicans. mike, if you are nancy pelosi, you don't have to give republicans a vote. if the republicans don't have enough votes to keep the government opened, it's because the government is back. it won't be because of daca, it won't be because of illegal immigrants, it will be because they can't run their own house. >> you know, joe, catty and i were talking during the last break about the exhaustion factor the level of exhaustion that this presidency, that this congress, that this political system has brought to all of us and ordinary people. will tis daca debate, whether it will be introduced and successfully concluded in january or ignored now is just

one more level of dysfunction brought to the american people each and every day, bill belichick tells all of his football players, just do your job. we have 530 people in washington. many do not know how to do their jobs what the people who sent them to washington want them to do. >> that is to do their job to come up with sensible solutions for every day problems, including getting something done for the children who are born here, who came here with their parents, whatever, can't get that done? get out. get out. that's where we are. >> i understand that a lot of people are exhausted, willie. right now the democrats can't afford to be exhausted. they're in a sprint until 2018 and cowering in fear and saying, oh, gee, we're going to back down, we're going to go ahead and give jim jordan and the republicans all the votes they need to cover. we're going to cover for jim

jordan and the freedom cauticus give joe ryan the votes he needs, it seems like he's serious, it seems like insanity politically. you push your opponents to the wul and if jim jordan and the rest of the freedom caucus won't vote to keep the government opened, that is on them, not the dra itself. >> also, there is such energy in the democratic party around daca. you got, they're spinning with all this energy out of virginia and alabama. for this, i think this is one place they would put their political capital. in an issue that's important to the democrats. >> the democratic party in the leadership has to make sure it's in step going into the mid-term elections. when you hear, we had a couple indications of people like doug jones, ralph northam out of virginia giving interviews, they talk bipartisanship, reaching out to the other side.

i'm not sure that's where the base of the party is, the base of the democratic party wants us to fight for them. they want people to stand lock step with them. not give an inch in this political environment. it may not be the right thing, maybe what we want is more compromise, that's not where the party is at the moment. i don't know if lead, kab on this one, will they be seen as being democrats who historically attended, a rollover in the face of republican toughness and unity, that's not where the party is. >> they won't, joe is exactly right no. matter what happens the republicans will get blamed, if the government does something, they will be blamed. >> we will have those republicans the chairman of the house freedom caucus, mark meadow, also coming up the white house giving president trump credit for recent stockmarket gains, saying a businessman is better than a liberal politician in the white house. our own steve ratner sent in a fact check on that, as we go to break, a bit of holiday cheer from president trump. >> bing bing bong bong bing bing bong bing bing bong bing bing

bomb bing bing bing ding bing bing ding bing bong bong bong. merry merry merry christmas. giving you a giant tax cut for christmas. >> bing bing bing bong, bing bing boom. right under the toilet. directv has been rated number one in customer satisfaction over cable for 17 years running. but some people still like cable. just like some people like pre-shaken sodas. having their seat kicked on an airplane. being rammed by a shopping cart. sitting in gum. and walking into a glass door. but for everyone else, there's directv. for #1 rated customer satisfaction over cable, switch to directv and for a limited time get a $100 reward card. call 1-800-directv.

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was supposed to be a wake reup call for our government?sh people all across the country lost their savings, their pensions and their jobs. i'm tom steyer and it turned out that the system that had benefited people like me who are well off, was, in fact, stacked against everyone else. it's why i left my investment firm and resolved to use my savings for the public good. but here we are nine years later and this president and the republican congress are making a bad situation even worse. they won't tell you that their so called "tax reform" plan is really for the wealthy and big corporations, while hurting the middle class. it blows up the deficit and that means fewer investments in education, health care and job creation. it's up to all of us to stand up to this president. not just for impeachable offenses, but also to demand a country where everyone has a real chance to succeed. join us. your voice matters.

. >> broof this morning every vote counts, in virginia, a recount revealed that shelley same mond simons won her seat t. vote will alter the balance of power in virginia's legislature for the first time in 17 years, splitting evenly between democrats and republicans. the last time both parties shared power was in 19 make the. simons was initially thought to be trailing the republican david yancey by 12 votes. it means democrats will flip 16 seats in last month's election. democrats in virginia hoping to add with two more recounts held this week. extraordinary. it was a bit of a wave, 15 seats slipping from republicans to democrats. now we're up to 16 by one vote.

>> yeah, you know, noah, the governor's race was a huge win for the democrats, considering ed gillespie had momentum in his direction. but the real story of that night t. real shock of that night, almost on a doug jones level was that the republican legislature in virginia was actually in danger. nobody thought that we would get to this point. nobody at the beginning of the night and once again, that suggests a way for several reasons, one, huge intensity from democrats, from black voters from women from younger voters, but the bigger problem for republicans and i think by watching the republican's problem this year, noah, i'm starting to understand why democrats lost a thousand votes or a thousand legislative seats under barack obama t. lack of energy, the lack of inspiration.

the lack of a desire to go out and vote for your party. it looks like what infected democrats during the obama administration has now moved on and has really hit the republican party from the top of the tick to the bottom. >> yeah, you are exactly right. i woke up on the day after the election in new jersey and my county in somerset to a county executive who had been sitting in that seat for almost a half century, two lost, didn't see it coming. that's what happens in a way. seats you never think were going to be moving moved and what we saw if alabama, special and what we saw if georgia's election, democrats turn out all their vote, also outperformed hillary clinton by a little bit t. special candidate the senator elect doug jones in alabama under performed hillary clinton by a little bit. they're generally turning out every drarkt republicans by contrast are staying home, they're under performing dramatically, republicans don't have any reason to turn out. as we said last time, last week,

there is one special election in the country, where that wasn't the case, it was in utah where the republican party is vehemently anti-trump. >> yeah, and so casey hunt, what are republicans doing to batten down the hatches and prepare for next year. is there a growing understanding that they've got a tidal wave that's coming in their direction that'siment i impa impacting them, can you talk about delaware county pennsylvania works elected republicans county wide for the first time ever. can you talk about alabama, virginia, new jersey, this is happening everywhere. are republican house members, do they understand how shaky the ground is they're standing on? >> reporter: i think to a certain extent they kind of want to bury their heads in the sands. but i think they are coming to grips with it t. tax reform plan is supposed to be the thing that will save them from all of this there is a little irony actually

i think in that, where they will lose the most ground is in the suburbs the place that this bill hurts the most are suburban voters who maybe pay higher tax, have higher income, also have a higher cost of living. i'm originally, i grew up in chester county, pennsylvania, which is outside of philadelphia. we had the same thing happen. there was some obscure local elections that the congressman who now represents that area was texting on election night saying i can't believe these are now democratic. my school board was republican controlled for years is now evenly divided. i think you see it in every interaction we all had when we go home to talk to our families or friends, all anybody wants to talk about is politics. and president trump and i don't know about you all, that didn't used to be true. you see it, candidates, people running for these local offices, every saying, i really want to get involved. there sort of has been a great awakening i think in the

country. there are a lot of people who tuned out, thought, my participation doesn't matter the status quo will continue. i think they were pretty shocked by president trump's election. >> the election in virginia was so exciting the recount we had, if you ever felt to yourself as casey was describing there, you vote didn't count, you couldn't have impact on politics, one vote. that's why that was the best story. >> it should be noted, this is all happening with a really strong economy. >> yeah. >> the republicans are not benefiting from a good economy. which suggests that donald trump's approval and republican approval is not tethered to the economy. >> in the suburbs, suburban voters, especially women, minority voters, donald trump is the rocket fume for the democratic party. that's one of the biggest motivating factors in getting people out to the polls. >> you know, people always go back to what james carvel and bill clinton said in 1992, if the economy is stupid sometimes

in off year elections, it's not the stupid. in 19 know, bill clinton had a good economy going, he got wiped out. he was seen as culturally disconnected from the company f. 2006 the economy was doing well. george w. bush's republicans got wiped out because of iraq, because of katrina. because of other side issues, willie, quinnipiac poll yesterday had donald trump sitting at 37%, listen to these numbers that are pushing people out to the polls. 62 to 37% of americans say donald trump does not care about average americans. that's just a killer in any pom, 62 to 34% say he's not honest.

for republicans comforting themselves saying that's what the polls looked like in the summer of 2016 and he still beat hillary clinton. he will never run against hillary clinton again. but republicans are running against donald trump and those numbers and they're losing time and time again. those are extraordinarily heavy weights on the back of anybody. whether they're a town council person or a congressman or whether they're running for governor or senator. >> there is no question, he's shaken up the country. republican versus to deal with it. whether in virginia or more recently in alabama. obviously, roy moore had a lot to do with that. in a ruby red state, for that to flip away from donald trump tells you a lot of who is coming out to vote. african-american voters, suburban women, suburban republicans coming out to vote for a democrat in that case in

that race. we will have more on shelley simons' one vote victory outspoken critic of vladimir putin gary kasparov joins our table. "morning joe" will be right back. it's the final days of the ford year end sales event. ♪ i'm on top of the world, hey. ♪ it's your last chance of the year to get our best offer of the year: zero percent financing for seventy-two months, plus an extra one-thousand cash back across a full lineup of ford cars, trucks and suvs.

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>> the new nbc/wall street journal poll finds that democrats have the largest lead over republicans since 2009 over who best can handle the economy. 35% picked the democrats. 30% say that's the republicans, six machine poi six-point reversal from join. 40% say president trump made the economy better. press secretary sarah huckabee sanders tweeting, quote, amazing what happens when you put a businessman instead of a liberal politician in the white house. but our own steve ratner

crunched the numbers and found the dow in the first 11 months in the obama administration grew by 29.9% and 25% under trump. as for the s&p, by 36.9% in obama's first 11 months and 18.4% in trump's, joe. there you have it. there are the numbers. >> wow smrks. >> the core of president trump's argument, that the stock market is up, unemployment is down and the economy is humming along. >> it's interesting. i'm not really good with numbers but it looks like barack obama almost did twice as well with the s&p, the performance almost doubled. i'm not really good at math but i think 36.7% is almost twice as much as 18%, mike barnicle. >> yeah. and looking at -- i'm not good at math either, joe. >> no, you're not. >> but i'm buying into what you're saying. look, obama's first year, first two years, we were digging

ourselves, noah, out of the worst economic situation since the depression. >> yeah. i don't remember where the s&p was in 2008. >> you don't? >> i don't. i remember where the dow was. it was like in the low 8,000s. we're talking relative gains here, nearing 25,000 dow in the space of a decade. that's something to crow about but, yes, relatively, barack obama did better because they had more room to grow. >> kasie, politicians and presidents take credit for things like this. not a new phenomenon for donald trump but it can be true that the economy is doing well, that the dow is doing well and you are not single handedly responsible over 11 months for turning it around. >> i think that's right. the point about the president, president obama having a giant hole to dig out of is a point that's well taken. i mean, because he increased by that percentage. remember how bad things were when he came into office. what i will say about the

economy is how people actually feel, i'm starting to wonder if the indicators we rely on that tell us how well people are doing are starting to become outdated. the way people work in this economy is really changing. a lot of these things we talk about, the stock market, the people who feel that, it's an increasingly smaller percentage of the voting public. and not everybody owns stocks. a lot of normal people do in their 401(k) plans but a lot of people also don't and a lot of people are working now in an economy where they don't get these traditional benefits. i'm not sure that -- i can understand why there might be a disconnect between how people feel and what they're saying in the polls and these performance numbers. >> willie, it's -- i've been talking about how things were different in the '80s under reagan. now another way they're different is you look at who is investing in the stock market, a lot fewer individuals percentage wise and more institutional investors.

so, when the stock market explodes, you know, mom and pop businesses on main street don't feel that. >> right. >> maybe huge universities, state pension systems will feel more of an impact. but not average voter on the street. that's why you'll see a disconnect of people who credit donald trump or say he's doing a good job. right now, obviously, despite the strong economy, he still has the lowest approval ratings of any first-term president ever. >> also, joe, quickly, the anger about wage inequity in this country. people see on the news all the time about the stock market is booming, the greatest economy under trump in years because of the percentage rise. but it doesn't benefit people, ordinary people, as much as it benefits everyone you just cited.

>> all right, kasie hunt, thank you very much. we'll talk to you soon. house democratic caucus chairman joe crowley says the gop tax plan is a sham. mark meadows says it will give americans their money back. who is right? we'll talk to both men coming up on "morning joe." take out the? (sigh) ( ♪ ) dad: molly! trash! ( ♪ ) whoo! ( ♪ ) mom: hey, molly? it's time to go! (bell ringing) class, let's turn to page 136, recessive traits skip generations. who would like to read?

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reconsider is laid upon the table! >> when did you ever hear that americans are against a tax cut bill? well, you're hearing it now. republicans will rue the day that they pass this had tax bil bill. >> the democrats have said american people will remember this night. i hope they do. because we passed one of the most important tax breaks in this country's history. >> at about quarter to 1:00 in the morning, the senate passed the $1.5 trillion tax bill on a 51-48 party line vote. earlier in the day, the house thought it had passed it shall too, but procedural violations requires them to take a new vote on the bill today, at which it time it will pass again. washington anchor for bbc world news anchor katty kay, noah rothman, political correspondent for nbc news, steve korinacki,

jeffrey goldberg and mika has the morning off, joe. >> yeah. i'm just looking at "the wall street journal." they have a great layout of where the gop plan stacks up in history. it is -- historically, it's significant. it's not as big as kennedy's tax cut in 1964. well, '63. it says '64. also not as big as reagan's in 1981. jeffrey goldberg, i became a republican in the early 1980s, in large part, because i believe the democrats taxed too much, spent too much and were too reckless with -- well, fiscal matters. i have spent the last 40 years watching deficits explode, the federal debt explode. by democrats and republicans but it seems like republicans have owned it a lot more. i'm just trying to figure out -- let's play devil's advocate

here. what is the upside to this tax increase? let's try to be positive this morning. because we've been -- i've been attacking it for raising the debt, for being the wrong tax cut at the wrong time, increasing income disparity. is there a chance that actually this could grow the economy, this could help work iing class americans? is there any tax cut in history that suggests that? >> i don't think so, joe. i mean, the upside -- i'm refracting this through politics as usual. republicans look like they could do something. in particular, donald trump looks like he could do something. this is a not bad ending to a very bad year. but, no. i mean, this is great news and i don't mean to put my thumb on the scale here. it's great news if you believe that corporations are people, obviously. this is potentially good news if

you are in a very high tax bracket. we'll see. i've looked at this as much as you have. i don't understand the cascading effect of this. i would just say that let's not lose focus on the main beneficiaries of this tax cut, which at the moment are america's corporations. the working class, i think, is getting stiffed. it's nothing new. and maybe i'm wrong. i hope i'm wrong. i hope this stimulates an incredible level of infrastructure spending and capital investment. but it doesn't strike me. >> yeah. i hope you're wrong. i hope i'm wrong. steve kornacki, it seems this bill was passed for one main reason. and that is because you had gop donors that had been complaining for six, seven, eight months that donald trump and the republican majority were just not getting things done.

they were bungling their way through the first half of 2017 and many said, quite openly to me six, seven months ago, we know that nancy pelosi will be speaker after the 2018 elections. we have to get these tax cuts done. i was shock bid how brutally honest they were with me. they didn't like trump. they knew the republicans couldn't hold their majority. all they wanted was this tax cut. if they were saying that to somebody in the media, imagine the pressure they were putting on members day in and day out that they contributed to. and their attitude basically was if they don't get this done we're just not going to give them any more money in the future. >> i think, look, there's a lot of pressure that came from within on this, too, inside the party, inside these own individual members psychologically, just the idea of in 2016 we got the white house, we got the house. we got the senate. in theory we have the power to do just about everything we

want. winding down 2017 and not a single big ticket legislative item to show for it. how can we run in 2018 and say make sure you keep this power you gave us in 2016 without something to show for it. they have something to run on in theory. the political calculation in terms of 2018, it's a bank shot they're aiming for politically here. look at the polling on this right now. it's unpopular. there's no credit in the immediate moment, no victory in the immediate moment of passing this. they're basically saying when people start looking at their paychecks, withholding, government is taking out a little bit less, they'll appreciate the extra money, come to a different idea about this. look, we'll see. maybe that could happen politically. history suggests people don't really make those connections. i remember president obama, the democrats in 2010, they passed a tax cut. there was a poll taken in the fall of 2010 in the mid term elections and the vast majority of americans had no idea their tacks had been cut. >> mitch mcconnell said the opposition to the bill in those

polls is about bad messaging, not the contents of the bill. it will keep the current seven brackets for income taxes but lowers the rates and changes income thresholds. top rate is 37% versus 39.6% under current law. individual tax cuts expire after 2025. meanwhile the standard deduction is almost doubled to between $12,000 for individuals and $24,000 for couples. the new tax bill cuts the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21%. while taxing foreign earnings at lower rates and the bill offers an expanded child tax credit. here is majority leader mitch mcconnell speaking this morning after the senate vote. >> do you believe there's a need for republicans to go out and sell this bill, given how people are currently viewing it? >> absolutely. we're looking forward to it. if we can't sell this to the american people, we ought to go into another line of work.

we believe this will be something the american people will respond to positively. i'm a little surprised that democrats all decided voting against middle class tax relief and making american businesses more competitive is a smart vote. that's an argument we're more than happy to have going into the fall election. >> the democrats taking this to congress next november would turn this into a very short tax bill. they're all committed to repealing it, raising taxes on the american people. that's what's at stake in the fall of 2018. >> so, you hear the majority leader there, hammering the same message president trump has been hammering. this is a gift -- the president's words not the majority leader's words. middle class tax bill. they don't talk a lot about some of the other benefits for wealthy but say if you cut the

corporate tax rate it brings america in lines with countries around the world, more competitive. eventually, the argument goes, benefits american workers. >> two things. the first one is that democrats are, i think, very happy to talk about their vote on this tax bill. essentially because then they can point to the corporate tax rate and people like bob corker and the president themselves and say these guys gave themselves a tax cut because part of this bill benefits large commercial real estate holders. mitch mcconnell is now trying to turn the 2018 mid terms into a conversation about tax bills when that's not going to be what the conversation is. the conversation will be whether or not the american people like republicans and president trump while democrats wanted to come up with a message with all the hash tags of what they wanted to be talking about, essentially every single state voters will be going to the polls and saying am i voting for the party of donald trump or not? do i like the entertainment aspects, the antics of this president? do i think he's funny or do i

think our country is in danger and he's unstable and as a result i'm going to put democrats in office sh. >> i want to add something to what she said, very important point. it boils down in 2018 to what democrats can go in front of the voters and say is simply this. did republicans just give corporations a larger tax break than they gave you? say that over and over and over again. tactically, i don't see how that's a lozer for the democrats. >> chairman of the house democratic caucus, joe crowley of new york. congressman, good to see you as always. your reaction, first, to the passage of this bill. it will have to be voted on again because of a couple of provisions in the house today. it will pass. you called this bill a scam. what specifically about the bill do you object to? >> i think it was a bait and switch on a proportion we've never seen before. the president said that he would help the middle class. he campaigned on that in middle america. and, in seveessence, what he's g and what the republicans are doing is giving a huge tax

break -- you mentioned 14%. a third of the middle class, 30%, will see a tax increase under this bill. we know that 83 million households will see a tax increase under this bill. it really was a classic bait and switch. they dangled it out there for the middle class. and what it's really doing is helping the corporate special interests as well as the wealthiest in this nation to the tune that's been really unheard of in modern history. >> congressman, are there not businesses in your district that will celebrate the lowering of the corporate tax rate? what do you think they will do with that money? the argument from republicans has been that they've got more money, they'll hire more people, and will be more jobs in your district. >> many of them will be celebrating. it means more money in their pockets. we had repatriation of foreign taxation a number of years ago, we were promised job growth. very, very, very few jobs were ever seen grown through the american jobs act, is what it was called.

history has shown when these corporations get this money, they don't put it back into the workforce or research. they put it into their own pockets, dividends. it's really not something that's going to help the bottom line. that is the paycheck of the individual in a pay raise by those corporations. i hope it happens. it's just history has shown it doesn't happen. >> noah rothman has a question for you. >> it looks like act two of this thing will be approaching nondiscretionary spending and seeing if they can bring some of that in line. republicans are going to propose things like premium support for medicare and block granting of medicaid -- sorry, block granting of medicare, vice versa. are democrats blanket opposed to spending reforms? >> i think they'll try to impose chain cpi as they have in this tax bill toward social security eventually. the president, to his promise, he would not cut social security or medicare. i've got news for him. paul ryan hases squarely focused

now on so-called reforming those entities. reforming means to him is cutting them. so, democrats will fight tooth and nail, as we did when they tried to privatize social security and they failed. we will fight them tooth and nail on these proposals as well. >> congressman, clearly, we've seen it in virginia, alabama, a democratic wave forming in the country. one thing that might block that wave would be the continuing growth in the american economy. the sense that, as the president keeps saying, the stock market is booming, unemployment is coming down. we ought to see wages picking up as well. this tax bill, initially, you're right, in the longer term it will raise taxes on middle class people. initially it could make them see that their tax bill is coming down. do you head into the mid term elections then with something of an economic hurdle that you have to overcome in your pitching? >> look, we as americans hope we

see an increase in the gdp of 4% or 5 per. we just don't think that's going to happen. you know, what the reality is that many of my constituents back home in queens will not see that tax decrease. as well, you know, the economy has been ticking along quite well in terms of the job growth in the united states has been ticking along, the economy, the stock market. this notion that it's only happened in the past year is ridiculous. it's been go iing on steadily f 80 months in our country. >> that doesn't matter politically, right, if you're heading into -- you're going to take credit for that. >> the reality is that the american people, starve the beast, as they say, starve the government and to make cuts to programs that we believe has helped lift up the american people throughout the last eight decades. social security, medicare and medicaid. these are things that have

helped expand opportunities for insurance in this country. republicans never liked them in the first place. number one goal is to repeal them or at least reduce them. >> congressman, joe scarborough here. >> hi, joe. >> why would democrats do anything to help the republicans keep the government open when they're not going to do it on your terms? basically democrats in the house would be doing the bidding of the freedom kaung caucus to inc the debt ceiling essentially. >> whether or not we have leverage. if republicans can convince the freedom caucus to vote for a short term spender that doesn't increase spending for the new year, they've demonstrated they've been able to do that. if they come to democrats with a bill that is lacking in the issues we care about, whether it's c. hncht i.p., community health centers, the issue in puerto rico and the virgin islands, florida and texas,

whether it is daca, pension reform, those are issues we care about. we're going to see them more reflective of our values if they need our votes. >> congressman, steve kornacki. you want to run against this r next year in 2018. is the message you get full repeal every single rate that goes down because of this goes back up to its current level if democrats get elected next year? >> look, once they pass these tax cuts, as egregious as they may be, it will be very difficult to turn them around simply if the house is taken over by democrats. i would suggest that this is not done in a bipartisan way, that democrats would look to do things differently and would focus more on giving a tax break where it's really needed, to the middle class. we don't think this will trickle down, as they say, to the middle class or help the economy in the middle class as well. >> let me understand that point, then. rates are going down, at least initially, at the lower end of the income scale here.

would a democratic congress say we'll keep those in place? is there part of this you keep in place? >> we have to look at that. certainly there may be access that would help benefit the people we care about the most, working men and women trying to make ends meet. i can tell you that this bill focuses primarily on the wealthiest of this nation, richest people in this country, including donald trump and his family. they benefit the most, by far, of anyone in the passage of this tax bill. democrats are not our focus. the focus will be working men and women, people struggling to make ends meet. people who are felt forgotten certainly by this president and republican congress now. >> congressman joe crowley, representing the 14th district of new york. thank you so much. ramisha alsinder, if the president signs it and has a press conference later today. we look toward friday at

midnight, deadline for a government shutdown to get a spending bill through. there are hiccups in that process. we talked about daca, alexander murray, health care hiccup in the middle of all this as well. is there a chance that the government shuts down friday night? >> based on my reporting, and that's really talking to a lot of different senators and people in the house, i don't think we're going to get to a government shutdown. democrats are very weary of being blamed for the government shutdown. when you talk about issues like daca and c.h.i.p., children's health care. eeshler essentially democrats are saying we could support a short-term spending bill. at the end of the day we're going to have to come back in january and deal with these issues. the base will not like it. people are getting arrested, protesting just on the issue of daca. their base is upset that democrat also vote for a short-term spending bill. when it comes down to it, people

don't want to shut down the government in the middle of the holidays and republicans are saying we can pass this short-term spending bill and get into the bigger spending bill next year. >> always good to have you, yamiche. joe? >> i want tocircle back to the president's speech on foreign policy. what was your takeaway from that? >> he's going to make america great again. what are you talking about, joe? >> yes, of course. >> you know, i have a hard time refracting donald trump through traditional modes of thinking about foreign policy. i don't think he particularly understands america's role in the world, historic role in the world, moral role in the world. the most surprising aspect of this, to me, was the pivot away from his previous china policy, which i suppose was a pivot away from his previous previous china

policy. >> right. >> basically, talking about chieny as a direct competitor in making this a zero sum game was really interesting. because this is donald trump we're talking about, abowhich io say -- i don't mean this in a judgmental way. but there's not a huge amount of consistency in the way he approaches some of these foreign policy crises. i expect he will pivot back again if the opportunity comes to try to manipulate china into doing something on north korea. i was a little bit shocked at that, to tell you the truth. >> yeah. so you spent an awful lot of time talking to barack obama and people in the obama administration, trying to cobble together exactly what was the obama doctrine beyond don't do stupid stuff. if you take -- >> by the way not the worst doctrine in the world right now, just noting for the record. >> well, we'll have that debate later. of course you don't want to do

stupid stuff. you probably don't want that to be your north star, guiding north star, though, for u.s. foreign policy. but if you take everything that donald trump is saying, everything that james mattis is saying, everything mcmaster is saying, everything tillerson is saying and do what foreign leaders are having to do right now and try to cobble together your own understanding of what the trump doctrine is, as we get to the end of 2017, how does it differ -- forget the tweets and extreme words. how does it differ from barack obama's world view which you knew so much about? >> the thing is -- this is not something that obama people like to hear. there is a continuity, continuum on the foreign policy spectrum between barack obama and donald trump. donald trump represents, obviously, a divisive stylistic break but, remember, this barack obama is the guy who talked

about a more modest, realistic, limited foreign policy. he is a guy who talked about getting allies to pay their fair share, talked about nato, britain and france and what they didn't do in libya. again, it's stylistic. there's component of this, of course, which is that barack obama might have rejected certain as he can'ts of an america greatness doctrine, which is to say they play a positive role in the world. donald trump doesn't even speak in that kind of language. >> right. >> but there's not a huge break. donald trump was -- barack obama was taking american foreign policy and making it more modest and self interested in one kind of way. >> but, you know, jeffrey, you bring up a very fascinating point that we now have presidents over the past decade whose foreign policy has been shaped by their primary drive

not to repeat the mistakes of bush and cheney. bush administration's overreach has deeply affected u.s. foreign policy over the past decade. and certainly you could even see it when donald trump is blaming george w. bush for much of the world's ills in south carolina republican primary debates, that bush and cheney still haunt foreign policymakers even today. >> absolutely. look, this isn't -- this is not john mccain's republican party. and projecting a muscular or robust american role into the world. we're still dealing with the aftermath of iraq and, of course, this is the thing. i don't think barack obama wants to hear this. i don't think donald trump wants to hear this. but, you know what? they took many of the same

lessons from iraq. they are not particularly interested in deep involvement or engagement with allies in many cases. donald trump does have a soft spot for the saudis that barack obama clearly did not have. but you're absolutely right. these are not leaders who talk about america playing an idealistic role in the advancement of democracy. >> jeffrey, stay with us. chairman of the house freedom caucus, mark meadows, joins us next on "morning joe." d months . but i don't want to talk about months. i want to talk about years. treatments have gotten better, so... i'm hoping for good years ahead. that's thanks to research funded by the american cancer society. the same folks giving me free rides to treatment, insurance advice,and a place to stay during chemo. i need that stuff like you don't know. and now that you do, please give at cancer.org

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welcome back to "morning joe." let's bring in mark meadows from north carolina's 11th district. congratulations. let me start by asking you, how does this bill help people in north carolina's 11th district? specifically 60% of your

district that's rural. >> you know, it really doesn't divide on rural or urban as much as it does making sure that almost every single american gets a tax cut, joe. when you look at it, the tax policy center, who is a nonpartisan analysis, said that less than 5% of the american people would not get a tax break. some of those, obviously, in new york and california where state and local tax was the biggest issue. but for my constituents, the average taxpayer will get over a $2,000 refund check that they wouldn't have got under a democrat administration. so, it's a good day for my district. not just my district. from coast to coast, for the vast majority of americans. they're going to get more of their money back in their pocket to spend it. but it's good to be with you this morning. look forward to talking about tax policy. obviously, just a few feet from

where i am in a couple of hours, we'll be voting the final way to send it 1600 pennsylvania avenue. >> so, i'm not sure how you split. when i came in we highway group of conservatives in '94 that were obsessed on tax cuts and a group that were more obsessed on balancing the budget and keeping the federal debt down. i love tax cuts, i was always one of those debt guys. >> i know you were. >> obviously, i see this bill, i'm worried about the $1.5 to $ trillion additional debt, worried about medicare going bankrupt, social security going bankrupt, i'm worried about what younger americans are going to have to pay. how do republicans follow this tax bill up? you've got one part of that conservative equation done. how do you take care of a $20 trillion debt that will explode to a $30 trillion debt when we've got $50 trillion in unpaid allegations in entitlement spending over the next 30, 40

years? >> obviously, joe, you're spot on. we agree on two things. one is the debt and certainly the deficit is something we have to tackle. the other is our favorite christmas movie "it's a wonderful life." so two things we can agree on this morning. how do we tackle that, getting to your question? we have to make sure that we slow down the growth of government. really, government has grown -- been growing twice as fast as paychecks back home on main street. so what i propose is that we slow down the growth. not cut government. just slow down the growth. >> you talk about government, congressman, as you know, when you talk about government, if you're just talking about discretionary spending that's 10%, 11% of the government that. won't do it. >> you're right. >> that won't save us. you've got to look at defense, entitlements. you've got to look at reforming all of those. so, are you willing to go there?

>> i am willing to go there. in fact, i've made public statements, joe, because our deficit, i believe, is our number one national security risk, more so than anything else. in fact, when we're looking at the department of defense, i believe that we need to give more money to our fighting men and women and less money to those in the pentagon, just a few miles from here. you know, i believe that we could probably cut some of the fat from there. some 100 to 200,000 employees that do very little of the fighting and certainly more of the bureaucracy. there are areas to look at trimming back across the spectrum. and so to suggest that it's only a one aspect would not be accurate. you know i find -- >> how about this? let me ask you this. not to interrupt. >> sure. >> other people want to jump in. >> please. >> i want to get everything in that i can get in. what about weapons programs that the pentagon doesn't want but defense contractors want? what about going after weapons

systems that we don't need but that military contractors are pushing? >> well, you know, the special interests and the k street lobbyists probably don't want to hear that. i believe if we put our priority in terms of our national security interests first and not the special interests of k street, whether they're defense lobbyists or not, when we do that, we're well served. i'm one of the few fiscal conservatives willing to stand up to that lobby. you were as well, when you were here in the house. and so we look forward to addressing that in a real way, in this upcoming budget. >> congressman willie geist back here in new york. >> hey, willie. >> on the question of the corporate tax cut down to a rate of 21%, something you all have long sought and a lot of people agree is a good idea to make us more competitive around the world. your argument is that by cutting that rate, companies will have more capital and, thus, they will hire more people. and that is, in part, why this

bill is good for the middle class. if you talk to democrats who oppose the bill and also economists, they say that's not what corporations, by and large, do, when they get their money back. they buy back stock, reinvest in the company but don't necessarily go out and hire new people. do you believe that will change and it will mean more jobs here? >> some economists would make the argument, willie, you just made. some economists make exactly the opposite argument. >> sure. >> i know that obviously i've probably, during this tax debate, met with almost 150 cfos and ceos in terms of what it means in terms of american jobs here in the united states. and overwhelmingly, because of the way we've put together this foreign tax structure, there is an incentive now for jobs to be done here. certainly some get paid the dividends. it would be intellectually

dishonest to suggest otherwise. as we look at that, overwhelmingly, we heard about job creation that was going to happen here. and i think for the viewers, for those that are concerned about their jobs being shipped abroad, to china or wherever else, today is going to be a good day. they don't have to worry about the flight going overseas. quite the opposite. actually, we're going to be taxing that companies that have kept money abroad and forcing them to bring it back. that's a unique thing that will be good for the american taxpayer. >> is there some specific incentive in here, though, congressman, that tells a company by giving you this corporate tax break we encourage you or incentivize you to hire people rather than buying back stock or increasing your profits? you sold this as a middle class tax bill, i'm wonder whag it means for a middle class person who is out of a job, who looks at this as they will get hired by one of these companies. >> two things does that.

one is the incentive to bring back those earnings, as i was just mentioning. an expensing provision that says if an american company will invest in manufacturing here in the united states, what will happen is that they can write off 100% of that for the next five years. that's a good thing. when you start looking at bidding factories in the united states versus building them in vietnam or other places obviously it means more jobs and certainly puts pressure to make sure that wages go up. there's nothing that says you have to spend it on this but there are great financial incentives to have them do that. >> we have a million questions for you. unfortunately you have to run to another interview. appreciate your time. congressman meadows, thanks for your time this morning. >> thanks willie. >> katty, i want to get your take on what he said about the corporate tax break leading to more jobs. >> he went to the place where it will mean that americans don't have to worry about jobs being

shipped overseas anymore. but we've seen the story of jobs coming back into the united states as wages have risen in china and even to some extent in mexico. onshoring happening in america. so that seemed to be a bit of a red herring to me. jeff was nodding there. >> nodding with katty or the congressman is this. >> nodding with katty, my new show. to say american workers can stop worrying about their jobs leaving for china. there's no automatic trigger here that guarantees that. >> that's what i was trying to get at. >> i was a little surprised that the, to tell you the truth. >> joe? >> willie, the fact is that right now, tax lawyers across k street and across america are pouring through this document. they don't even know exactly what's in the bill. they don't know how it's going to impact them.

maybe it will make them advantageous to build new production facilities. i don't think that's going to be the case but you just never know. but one thing is for certain. businesses and corporations are going to do what's in their own best interest and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. that is capitalism. and that's worked pretty well in this country. except now where, again, income disparity is exploding. maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised. if that does happen it certainly won't be because of anything that this republican congress planned while they were drafting this bill up behind closed doors. >> right. those companies may very well hire more people because they have this capital. the idea that they're going to take the new difference in capital from the old corporate tax rate and use it all to hire

scads of new people is probably a fantasy. >> i don't know. barack obama proposed a corporate tax rate reduction in 2012 and a lot of democratsy on board because the corporate tax rate is not competitive. if you're alluring business from abroad, reducing the tax rate to something that is competitive and ensuring protection for intellectual property, they all should generate economic activity. if they don't, we have to throw all the theories out the window. >> jeffrey goldberg, thank you. we look forward to your new show, "nodding with katty." >> huge. huge. thanks to one vote. "morning joe" is coming right back. at fidelity, trades are now just $4.95.

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ahead in our next hour we'll bring in an outspoken critic of vladimir putin garry kasparov. rare tie for control of verirginia's lenlth legislature. shelly siemens won by a one-vote

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with us now is the apparent winner in the 94th district of virginia state legislature, democrat shelly simons. a single vote won her a seat ending 17 years of a gop controlled state legislature and the future legislator herself is with us right now. shelly simons, thank you so much for being with us. you know, we're going to just -- i'm just going to tell you right now i can make one prediction. when you go to the state house you're going to have the same nickname linyndon johnson earne in 1948 by squeaking past his opponent. you're going to be called land slide for the rest of your life. how does it feel this morning? >> i'm so excited. they can call me land slide as long as they call me delegate.

i'm really, really thrilled. i tell you, i'm going to have thousands of people coming to me saying i'm that one vote, shelly, so you better listen to my ideas. but, you know, i ran in 2015. i tell you, 2017 was a totally different environment. so much more energy and excitement. it was a whole different ball game. >> miss simons, it's willie geist here in new york. congratulations to you. you touched a little bit on 2017 before this vote that apparently puts you in the state house. 15 seats flipped from republicans to democrats in the virginia lait legislator? what's happening, in the country we can talk about, but more specifically in the state of virginia this year? >> i think we had a lot of great citizen engagement after the women's march. people were getting active, taking charge. i had volunteers who were running entire programs for me.

we had outside groups coming in from across the country, like forward majority and tech for campaigns and sister district. and they were all focused on virginia and and getting peop s excited and giving citizens the tools they need to get engaged in state elections. i think there's a sense out there that these are the elections that matter. we have got to focus on state elections and make sure state houses have good governance. >> can you give us the position for this year and what do you contribute for the voter turnout this year? >> i think my district is n newport news. we go alongside the james river.

we have a lot of high-tech industries, we are a green city. we have wonderful parks. in terms of what really motivated voters i would say the events going on in washington have been incredible, where it be the tax debate or the health care debate we saw over the summer people are paying attention. and i stood outside the polls on election day and i was amazed at the young people coming out to vote. when i ran in '15 i was counting young people with two happenend. >> this time half the voters must have been under 40. >> what has paralyzed -- so you have a democratic governor who says he rawants to do it. is it going to be enough power for you as democrats to expand

medicaid in virginia? >> i'm really hoping so. i know it's something that all of us campaigned on and everyone is paying attention. when i ran in '15 it was really hard to talk about that issue because it was complicated. people didn't understand it. i could go and say listen, republicans are mismanaging your health care. it was a huge motivator this time around. >> you mentioned the womans march now. i think of the 15 eats democrats picked up. 12 of them were won by women including yourself. how does that clahange the v virginia house? >> i think that it's going to become much more diverse, much more dhiechild friendly. i'm looking at how -- i think

you'll see more family friendly policies and legislation come out of the house. i think it's about time. i'm hopeful. i think we can work with republicans. a lot of them are bread and butter issues we'll be able to tackle together. >> all right. shelly simons from the school board to the state house. congratulations. good to have you on the show. >> thank you so much. president trump may soon be able to deliver on his tax cuts. we'll dig into why the house needs a bit of a redo today. gary has watched our president interact with putin. he thinks president trump is playing into what the crekremli wants. that's coming up on morning joe. [ keyboard clacking ]

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we believe you're messing up america. you could pay attention for a couple of minutes. >> do you believe there is a need for republicans to go out and sell this bill? >> absolutely. we are look forward to it. my view of this, if we can't sell it to the american people we ought to go to another line of work. >> mcconnell believes they have work to do to convince the american public. the tax bill passed the senate early this morning on a party line vote. earlier the house thought it passed but procedureral violations. president trump says he will take reporters questions this afternoon. good morning. it's wednesday, december 20th. we have caddy k. and nbc news

host of kasie dc. announced yesterday 11:30 p.m. starting january 2nd your program will be aired in the charlie rose slot. >> yes. connecting the two sides and pbs picking it up from january 2nd. >> let's turn to the news. by almost 2-1 americans believe the tags bill is a bad idea. they say president trump's tax bill is a bad idea. 24% say it's a good idea, that's

roughly is same. only a 53% of republicans think it's a good idea. 29% of whites and 28% of rural americans think it is a good idea. who is meant to benefit most from gop tax plan? we'll get into numbers in just a moment. obviously it is a historic moment. this is a turning point. it is a generational moment for tax reform. what are the implications of this? >> yeah. the senate likes to say it's the first major tax reform since top gun was in theaters.

he has been working on this himself for decades. they are selling this as a huge victory that is designed to help all americans. i think the reality of it is obviously a little more complicated. it is not as simple and straightforward as republican leaders initial lly set out to have it by. others kind of got in and what we are seeing is a rebalancingover wrebalancining of who wins and who looses. they say they will ultimately spur job creation. democrats believe it's not the case. it will we if he can every single person in america and likely what they will be judged on in 2018. i think they are counting on americans seeing with holdings from their paychecks and saying

hey, this helped me. >> so joe, you have known paul ryan far long time. you could see it as he hit that gavel yesterday. but obviously it was the culmination for many republicans of a generational move here. >> yeah. it is his lifetime work. it is what he has been pushing to do from a very early age from the time i knew him first on the hill when he was 22 or 23 years old. this is his life work. whether you agree with paul ryan or not that fact cannot be denied. the question is what is this going to mean in the long term obviously for american workers, but also i don't think americans

have done a great job messaging this or their health care efforts, do you think it's a bill that could end up hepg t m them -- helping them in the long run politically? >> obviously the reduction in the corporate rate is a big issue here. the corporate rate still higher than european average. nevertheless competitive now will spur growth. it has to. you can't inject that much without it having some impact. i don't really know whether or not we are going to see that. politically if you're insisting people will look and see a 1.6% increase and say i will award republicans for this, that seems like a big bet. we have a budget deficit here that's a buster. republicans have to look at cutting spending in an election year.

it seems like a big haul. >> a very big haul. it will be made so much harder by what the republican party just did yesterday with this tax cut. if you believe estimates will put 1 ppt 5 to 2 trillion deeper into debt. it does make any future cuts seem even more savage. democra democrats, bill clinton, his attack line and it worked was those republicans are cutting medicare to pay for tax cuts for the rich. those republicans are cutting benefits for the poorest americans to pay for tax cuts for the rich. whatever we did it was always turned around to that punch line. i'm not so sure that the republicans didn't walk right into that trap in 2018 despite the fact there have been a lot of business people saying it's

insane the united states has the highest corporate tax rate in the world. how does it wash out for them? >> i'm not going to pretend to be an expert on the tax bill. you know, i can't even balance a checkbook back in the day when people had checkbooks. i have been stunned at the number of ordinary people who are worried about the size of the jet that will be incurred as a result of the tax bill. the other aspect of this bill that is really threatening to the way laws are passed and the way this country survives and prospers is the continuing polarization that surrounded this bill. the idea that one particular party went out of its way to remove 13 million people and are proud of it. and the fact that the bill, you

know, no hearings on the bill, no real communication back and forth and a generation altering tax bill. it is really a continuation of a system that has to be improved. it has to be addressed or else we are going to be in bigger trouble than we are in today. >> all right. we talked about the politics of the tax bill. up next, what exactly is in it. we'll break that down ahead on morning joe. some air fresheners are so overwhelming, they can...

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kasie, we talked about the poll part of it. >> i think they haven't messaged it because it's hard to message. you can argue it from many sides. some of the top lines are the

top piece of this. real tax rates are a little bit different for each company involved. but it does simplify that overall. it does make adjustments to individual tax cut rates. so most people will see a top line rate cut as part of this bill. they also might see some from an increased child tax credit. it is something they fought for for the last minute here. people will also see a double standard deduction. most will file a more simplified version of their taxes. it will be less likely you'll itemize your deductions. this also something that will hurt people in high tax states, potentially connecticut where you can't deduct as many as you would have under current law. think what are businesses going to do with this windfall?

republicans keep saying they will hire more people. they will increase wages. democrats say they will help their shareholders. their committee is shifting. there are a lot more people working in the economy. they are not necessarily paying taxes the way americans have traditionally. i think there is going to be a real question for corporations who are going to see benefits from this. are they going to keep it for themselves and take higher profits or are day going to build and invest? >> you know, gary asked a group of american ceos what they were going to do when they got it how many were going to reinvest it in jobs and the american economy and very few put their hand up. it is interesting to hear it. you hear pretty circumspect.

it will depend on what ceos decide to do with that return. >> i don't know. nobody knows what is going to happen to the economy next year. the economy is doing pretty well. new stock market highs every day. 3% growth two consecutive orders. we could get to the point where we have inflation as a result of this. we don't know. the dynamic scoring being what it is, the notion that corporations will simply sit on this windfall and they won't reinvest doesn't make a lot of sense unless you're terrified of what the future will going to bring. we have had real stability in the economy. i am hopeful. i don't think anybody has anything more than that. >> we'll find out more about the tax bill within a fairly reasonable period of time. it is going to occur this way. you can get a sense of it.

the corporate tax rate getting cut is a good nipthing. it's a good thing to cut the corporate tax rate. what's going to happen to the money the corporations make? are they going to hire more people are more importantly over the next six months to a year if you're making 75 or $90,000, are you going to see an immediate impact, a change in your life due to this tax cut you get every week or every two weeks? are corporations going to give people like that who are benefits some what from the tax cut day athey are going to get? is it something they haven't received a significant pay increase? that's what we are going to find out about and that's what this bill is going to live or die on. >> they are not going to see that.

it goes back to bringing up the question when gary asked the ceos, if you get a tax cut are you going to reinvest. republicans -- and i'll say we because i have been republican all my adult life up until about six months ago. we republicans have been stuck? a time warp. we think everything is 1981 or 1982, that we are aullways havi to increase our defense spending because we are going after the soviets or we have to cut taxes because the tax rate is 75%. if we just give corporations a tax cut they are going to invest in more factories. they are going to add more assembly lines. they going to bring more americans streaming into the plant.

in 2017 -- they are as productive as they want to be to create goods or services. we may even see the gdp go up. it is going to be because of a tax cut like this where that growth has been over the past decade, the top 1% will get richer just as they have at a frightening rate over the past 10, 15, 20 years in the united states which far out places any other country in the west for having the 1% having the most plu money. this only adds to that, does it not? >> yes. they said this about the tax

bill just yesterday. it is going to massively increase inequality in the united states because of exactly what you have out it's lilined. it has benefitted the top 1% and this is going to increase that. the chances it will not lead to returning money to shareholders instead of investing in jobs and giving pay hikes i find that very hard to see. those ceos were pretty honest about what they with going to do. republicans may score a win on tax reform but they face key hurdles like avoiding a government shutdown this week. we'll break down the issues standing in the way. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. ♪

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a government shutdown with the midnight friday deadline fast approaching. democrats seem to be backing down to help resolve the fate of young undocumented immigranted. a group of vulnerable senators

facing reelection in conserve tifr states next year look like they may not with hold their support. the program would allow roughly 1.2 million immigrants to stay illegally. overnight tweeted that a bipartisan daca bill will be on the senate floor in january. senate majority leader mitch mcconn erel is expected to add stabilize the obamacare markets to the spending bill. the vote for tax bill with a

promise that the murray measure would become law this year. some house republicans are refusing to support anything that helps prop up the health law especially if it does not include federal funding for abortions. congressman jim jordan says adding it to the bill would be a problem. okay. a lot to unpack there. there are two big things here that could hold up the government shut down. we'll see by friday at midnight. >> yeah. we'll see. and kasie, why would the democrats back down now? the republicans just got a big win. they got a promise from donald trump several months ago. everybody knows they were going to fix daca in december. why not tell the republicans? buy not tell donald trump we are going to hold you to your word and we are not going to support

any short-term fix unless we make sure we know daca is taken care of. >> at the end of the day republicans control congress, however, as we saw when ted cruz did this, who gets blamed for something like that can be a tricky calculation. i don't think they necessarily want that hanging around their necks. now, i do also think there is a r relatively high degree of faith that people on both sides of the aisle want to get this done. the house speaker wants to get this done. republicans on the senate side want to gets this done. jeff flake's tweet may be one of the more significant markers saying we are going to do this in january. i read that democrats are trying to kind of put this on the conserve ti conservative members of their party. he doesn't want to put them in a difficult position but he can't

be seen publicly on this. he has tho make sure these are the people dacausing this proce. right now republicans do not have the votes to pass a continuing resolution in the house of representatives. it is not clear how they will corral them in the next 24 to 48 hours. >> why wouldn't they just cross their arms, especially nancy pelosi, and say you know what? you guys won everything. you don't call us in for help on health care reform. don't ask us to bail you out right now. why do you give republicans a single vote? they run the house. they run the senate. they run washington d.c. >> right. i don't know if they would be blamed far shutdown. >> i don't think they would.

the politics of this thing are actually pretty clear from a perspective. you would be shutting down the government. whether you think it's political messaging or not this is what they would have to go back to constituents and say we shut down the government for the children of illegal immigrants. i think it's bad politics. the stakes are incredibly low. everybody wants to fix this. the president wait a minutes it fixed. i don't think there are high sf stakes in this thing. still ahead on morning joe. >> the massive tax cuts we are planning that hopefully within a very short period of time will have signed into law. it will be bigger than anything ever done in the country. >> that was president trump last week comparing his tax package to that of ronald reagan.

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but you can feel confident in our investment experience around the world. call us or your advisor... t. rowe price. invest with confidence. are you saying that the growth you're going to get if this tax cut would equal this so that it's a wash so that you're not adding to the dedeficit? >> nobody knows the anxioswer t that question. let me say it this way. people are living paycheck to paycheck in this country. another group are about 1 check away from living paycheck to paycheck. we have not had a 3% growth economy. what that means is stagnant

wages. you to get faster economic growth so that people can get ahead in america. >> paul ryan speaking with savannah. joining us now craig shirley. his latest book is citizen newt. also with us from houston, texas, susan page. here in new york we have cnbc's brian sullivan, joe. >> obviously a big day for republicans. compare what happened yesterday with what newt gingrich did in '95. how big is it for republicans? >> well actually 1981, joe, was much bigger. reagan's tax wcut was the bigget on record since 1918. donald trump stands at number

eight behind reagan tax cuts, truman tax cuts, various other presidential tax cuts. it's not anything near what '81 was. not only was it giant but it reduced the top marginal rate from 70% down to 50%. in '86 he reduced it. that's real radical tax cutting. >> i have been talking about this for some time, about how different 1981 was from 2017 and two those ray gaceagan tax cuts because you wept down really significantly. you had general motors in 1981 that probably employed more people that google, apple, intell, facebook.

so a tax cut then meant more people on the assembly lines, more people working across america. i'm not so sure in this global financial world we live in it just doesn't mean more buy backs in stock for the corporations. what's your take? >> well, reagan was always more dubious about corporate america. that was the pop liulist in him. he grew up with eastern banks and things tliek. he was much more suspicious. he took on big corporations. you know, he didn't want anything interfering with rights and dignity of the individual. >> so brian, let me go back to what paul said a few plins ago about filling that deficit. he said nobody can know that. what he will say is that it will

purr nick growth in this country. is he right about that? would he put together the corporate tax rate if. >> thanks for that. if i knew the answer to that i might be -- listen, i don't know. growth will solve a lot of problems. you go from 3% to 4% economic growth. trust me, there's a lot, billions and billions built into that. i don't know if deficits matter anymore. the republicans screamed about it during the stimulus package. suddenly deficits respect really the biggest issue. this is the first major tax in the history of this fine nation with zero members. i think i channel my inner trump when i say sad.

>> that's the interesting point to me ben you look at the politics on this the polling on that was slightly better. a few congressional republican leade leaders. intuitively you expect a tax cut to pull. it is not pulling anything like you would expect it to poll. >> so we talk about the policy here and polls a little bit. let's talk about what president trump will be able to do which is to herald a tax overhaul.

>> yes. a win is better than a loss. there is a gamble here. this is the least popular piece of major legislation that's been passed in 30 years. the gamble that republicans are making is that americans will feel the effect over the next year. they will feel better and see it in their own paychecks. we'll talk about comparisons with ronald reagan. in 1986 a majority of democrats supported passage of that bill. >> yeah. this is noah rothman. because it is so distinct iive u wonder what was done

differently. it is up to the president to address this. >> jack kemp introduced it. bill roth introduced it in the senate. it became a philosophy through the late '70s. by 1981 the ground repaired for reagan to pass the tax cut. a poll had 71% of people supporting the '81 tax cut. both were passed with bipartisan support. public opinion is that reagan had public opinion to pass tax cuts in 1981. he was chairman of the house ways and means committee. i think because they never

explained it it is so confusing. '81 was straightforward. it was simple. it was districrect. it was easy to understand. they create two or three brackets. it was easy to understand. this bill is not easy to understand. >> okay. this is obviously a very different global committeconomy moment. he said this bill will incentivize companies to bring jobs back into america. jobs are already kind of coming back into america. you made the point to me earlier that the comparison doesn't hold water in the make-up of today's committee. >> nothing before 20 years ago can be compared to this. i'll tell you why. 20 years ago china's was smaller

than italy. it was irrelevant. now it's a global power that dominates the world, us and china. they competed for capital and taken capital. europe is one place. now it is one economic zone. their economy is bigger than the united states from an economic perspecti perspective. it is hard to make the comparisons. lower corporate tax rates should make it more competitive for companies to come back here. doe mesicallymestically it is a. there is something that has do with dallclassifying routine profits. it is a very wonky tax issue. there are some things you to be careful of in this bill. >> if you get it let me know. it is 1,079 pages long.

it is a weekend read for you but it would take me six months. >> there will be unintended consequences in this bill because so many didn't read the bill. many are still sorting through it and trying to figure it out over the next year to see how they can make the most money. craig shirley, you a book out called citizen newt. i'm wondering, for better or for worse how was the gingrich revolution of let's say '78 to '94, how buwas it responsible f a toughening of our politics and the rise of one donald trump? >> you were there. you remember. i think there was politics but politics has always been rough and tumble. the things that were written and said about lincoln or thomas

jefferson were pretty rough compared to today. today is pretty powder puff. so there's no doubt that he introduced corruption as a political weapon going after congressman including the speaker of the house who he finally forced from office. this was broadcast live on all three net woshworks. and so corruption got introduced really hadn't been used that much as a political weapon before until gingrich brought it about. he was there for the political revolution of 1994. it was the first time ever that it was nationalized. this is what was missing. in '94 every republican was saying the same thing at any

given moment. you have concentrated focus single message that people could understand. that's not what -- and then it was happening in the reagan days t too. that's not what was happening. >> and also back in 1981 was -- well, actually '95 is democrats may have attacked what gingrich called the contract with america but a lot of them voted for it. 50% of the democrats in the house voted. it was bipartisan legislation and it was set up in a way that this bipartisan legislation couldn't help but be popular with american people and even with half of the democratic caucus. those things are long gone. >> it is almost like you were there. no. not me. >> susan, i want to ask you a

big picture question here. let's assume that the house votes the way that it voted yesterday and president trump stand at a podium near the end of the year and says we got tax reform once in a generation. will is repeal of the individual mandate of obamacare. the dow is at an all time high. isis has been beat up pretty badly this year. will he have a case that he has some how salvaged his first year in office? >> you know, i think it's such a good point. craig talked about how we are still living in the world newt beginni beginni gingrich built. he has had a big effect on the judiciary, on isis. this tax cut bill, we'll be dealing with the consequences of that for some time to come. i think he can look lack and say

he has had a huge impact that laid a different political land za -- landscape. >> yeah. and susan brings up a great point. passing this tax bill changes everything. if you're donald trump and if you're the republicans then people say what did you do this first year? we changed the comurt. we passed the biggest tax cut since 1981. we cut regulations at record rates and the economy is doing better than ever before. you have a poll out there which shows you have a poll out there that says something like 60, 65% of americans think the economy is doing well.

he said it's the heist numbighe they have ever had for that. so you can't overestimate the importance of passing this big tax cut for republicans politically even if people like me believe it won't be good for the economy. >> and this is not a white washing for trump's first year. >> no. it's not. >> this is a case he'll be able to make if it is signed today. thank you all. still ahead on morning joe, former director same earlier this week that putin is handling donald trump as if he is a russian asset. we'll bring in gary to give his take on that and more. keep it on "morning joe". david. what's going on? oh hey! ♪ that's it? yeah. ♪ everybody two seconds! ♪ "dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is

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>> i think this past weekend is what a great case officer put it's putin is. i'm saying we have to remember putin's background. he is a kgb officer. they recruit assets. i think his managing is pretty

important for him with our president. >> it's the former director of national intelligence speaking earlier this week. joining us now former world che, gary kasparov. gary, it's great to have you here this morning. >> thanks for having me. >> i wonder about your reaction to james clapper describing putin as the former kgb agent manipulating president trump. >> let's remember when he was a prime minister meeting his former colleagues at kgb, he said once kgb, always kgb. that's why i don't think you should be surprised, of course people in this country are just waking up to understand in the year of internet we're all neighbors. the nation that doesn't respect the right of citizens doesn't respect neighbors as well. >> so in your view what is vladimir putin after here? why did they approach the united states election by meddling --

>> they did it in france, netherlands, in the uk, germany. >> why did they take that approach. >> spreading chaos. it's very important for putin just to mud the waters because the russian economy is in terrible shape. if you follow russian news, russian talk shows, there's no russia there. you talk more about russia here than in moscow because he knows there is nothing to offer. that's why the core of his domestic propaganda is aggressive foreign policy. russia is like a fortress and putin is the white knight to protect russia against the world's evil and it's a 24/7 world bashing. but at the same time they clearly separate president trump from the deep state. the only criticism of donald trump is being too weak, not to take control of the deep state and to rebuild good relations with russia on russian terms. >> so putin has used the instruments of his government to diminish democracy's role in the world, diminish america's role in the world.

he has successfully s sochowed in the american political system, american political structure. how do we defend against that? >> you can lose the war if you don't recognize the war is being carried against you. also you have to recognize his weapon is not propaganda, he's not selling you anything, he is spreading doubts. i would call him american anxiety of doubts. truth is relative. and the fake industry that was so successful operating in this country or in europe has been built in russia more than a decade ago to deal with russian opposition. they are far more sophisticated because they're not sticking with one message. they can support alt-right, radical left, anything that disturbs the pal of the status quo. >> gary, i heard that there's some concern in russia that the united states has been with all the coverage of the russia investigation, that america is building putin up paradoxically making him seem like this master strategist who went into the

american election and got donald trump elected and that's not how they see him. are we actually playing into putin's hands with all of the coverage here? >> i don't think so, because i would not call him strategist. he's not creating opportunities, but he's opportunist. he grabs an opportunity if he sees it. he has not invented the new alt-right parties in europe like le pen in france but he pushed millions of refugees from syria. so he looks at the map and picks up the best opportunity, the best spot to create more problems because he understands with more problems, the united front against him by the free world will be weakened and he, as every dictator, he always dominates the short-term agenda. >> does he ultimately want some kind of harmonious relationship, some kind of functional and harmonious relationship with donald trump or is it ultimately

just in his enduring political interest for there to be an acrimonious relationship between the united states and him. >> you put two things together that should be separated. with donald trump, yes. with america, no. america is his number one target because dictator needs the strongest enemy to defy to look strong at home. donald trump is another story. he believes that he can play him out to get what he wants from the american president, to lift sanctions or weaken the effect of the sanctions and also it goes back to the massive propaganda to show that he's so strong that he can control the president of the most powerful nation on earth. >> okay. on a complete different note, gary is offering his very first online chess course. did you ever want a chess lesson from gary kasparov. it's called master class. you can take a class right here. let's take a look. >> chess is a game of unlimited beauty, but it's not just checks and attacks. you have to be creative. i'm here to share with you my

knowledge of the game of chess. but i'm trying to come up with the comprehensive picture that will be helpful for you to become a better chess player and even a better decision maker. it's about coming up with new ideas, find your mistakes, next time you do better. it's not about winning or losing. of course at the end of the day it's about winning obviously. >> so how does this work? i go to masterclass.com and then what? >> slash gk and there are many lessons. it's a fascinating to watch the absolute best talk about their craft. and i like the concept and the production and if you know the rules, you'll find many interesting things there. it's not just about the tips, it's more about sharing the passion because there's so many sources of information now, but i'm trying to guide you in the right direction. >> a christmas present. >> if america takes that master class, how do we go after

russia's weakness, their economy? >> i think it will teach you to look at the strategy. the biggest advantage of democracy over dictatorship is strategy. if you play short-term game, dictator will always dominate because he doesn't care about free press, public opinion, parliamentary investigation. but strategy is paramount if you want to beat dictators. but strategy means you need statesmen, not politicians who take care of their short-term interest and midterm elections. it's about plans that will bring fruits when those who started it are not in the office any more. >> the wisdom of gary kasparov and the chess lessons at masterclass.com. joe, your final thoughts of the morning? >> just following up with what gary kasparov said, it's all about a war of ideas and it's about taking the long view. right now democracy looks like

it's under attack in the united states. we aren't effective. we're too polarized. same with great britain, same with germany. we have to all of us together have to start working harder together to show that actually autocrats will have something to learn from the way we conduct ourselves in the united states and great britain and across the west. we don't have that. we haven't had a good example in 2017. we have to make a better example in 2018. that's it for the show today. thanks so much. >> thank you. >> thanks so much for watching us. stephanie ruhle takes over right now. yeah, with liberty mutual all i needed to do to get an estimate was snap a photo of the damage and voila! voila! i wish my insurance company had that... wait! hold it... hold it boys... there's supposed to be three of you... where's your brother? where's your brother? hey, where's charlie? charlie?!

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hey there, i'm stephanie ruhle. this morning one step closer. overnight the senate passes the sweeping gop tax bill. >> after eight straight years of slow growth and underperformance, america is ready to take off. >> slow and steady growth, but not so fast. the house must vote again. we'll tell you why. as republicans across the board are rejoicing, democrats are keeping up the resistance. >> republicans will rue the day that they passed this tax bill because it's so unfair to the middle class. and a looming shutdown. congress turns its attention to a crucial spending bill and funding for a key children's health insurance program is