golden arches is not a guilty pleasure, but perhaps an issue of national security. and for that, we are all safer. that does it for me tonight. "hardball" starts right now. fire and fury rocks the white house. let's play "hardball." ♪ good evening. i'm steve kerr -- kornacki. a new book is portraying president trump as a volatile and uncontrollable force within the white house. set for release next week, "fire and fury" offers an unsettling window into the dynamic of current and former members of the president's inner circle. most damning of all are accounts

provided by steve bannon, who is anything but flattering to the president and to his family. in particular, bannon takes aim at the president's son, donald trump, jr. for arranging that june 2016 meeting with multiple russians and tom campaign staff at trump tower. bannon called the meeting treasonous, saying -- >> speaking of consequences, he said they're going to crack don junior like an egg on national tv. bannon says, the chance that don, junior did not walk those jumos up to his father's office on the 26th floor is zero. nbc news reports that one of the participants in that meeting maintains they did not meet with trump on that day. and that the white house denies that such an encounter

considered. it's clear that bannon has his own political motivations, his comments have went into open warfare. president trump offered a scathing critique, saying -- >> the white house has called the book a work of fiction. joining me now are two msnbc political analysts, peter baker is the chief white house correspondent for "the new york times." heidi is a white house reporter for "usa today." and kristen welker a white house correspondent for nbc news. thanks for joining us. krist kristen, it seems like the bottom line, we can get into the details that this book contains, the questions that are out there about how reliable all of the anecdotes are. but what we know is the president and his former ally,

steve bannon, appear to be at open warfare. this is a seemingly permanent break between them. >> it seems to be permanent. and it is a stunning rupture. just to give some context to how significant this is, this is someone who came into the trump campaign, when it was struggling, stood by then candidate trump during some of its rockiest periods, including when that "access hollywood" tape broke. we heard steve bannon say, i never wavered, not even for a second. he was made one of the president's top advisers here at the white house. and he really weighed in on a range of issues, everything from health care to trade deals. and then he was ousted, of course, over the summer. he was perceived as the touchstone to the president's base, someone who really had a feel for what the populist movement within this country wanted from this president. and i think he saw himself as holding the president to accountable to a number of his

promises to the voters. even after he left the white house, they continued to be in contact. the president praised him, in fact, after he left the white house. but behind the scenes, steve, i can tell you that bannon was growing critical of this administration, the fact that there were a number of campaign promises that haven't been met yet, particularly when it comes to immigration, to building a border wall, critical of the revelations about donald trump, jr. some of the revelations about jared kushner. and so i think that was creating a rift in addition to the fact that steve bannon had declared open warfare on the republican establishment and that complicated things for this president. so i think you can't understate how significant this is. and it could, in fact, create more complications for the president and his base moving forward. that remains an open question. but it's something we're going to have to look at. >> peter baker, it seems like bannon is trying to hit the president where it hurts here. we have those excerpts at the top about that june 2016 meeting

with the russians in trump tower. bannon basically coming out and characterizing that as treasonous, speculating the president's son is going to be torn apart in the judicial system here, at least potentially. is this bannon just sort of trying to find trump's weakness and go for it? is there something strategic about why he's raising this? what do you make of those particular comments from bannon here? >> good question. it's not that we didn't know this was steve bannon's view. he had talked to enough people around town saying these kinds of things. but to put it on the record and be quoted in a book saying it out loud like this undercuts the president. the president says this investigation is just a witch hunt, it's nothing, and that meeting in june 2016 was no big deal, just ordinary opposition research. steve bannon says the opposite and gives credibility to the investigation and to the concerns that people have about that meeting.

so why he was trying to do it i think is the question we're going to be trying to chew over now for days to come. it's certainly not something that's helping out the president e helped get elected and serve in the white house. >> here's the white house press secretary sarah huckabee sanders responded when asking if donald trump, jr. committed treason, let's watch. >> did donald trump, jr. commit trees snon -- treason? >> that's a ridiculous accusation. if that's referring to steve bannon, i refer you to what he said on "60 minutes" where he called collusion with russia a total farce. if anybody has been inconsistent, it's been him. i would think that going after the president's son in an absolutely outrageous and unprecedented way is probably not the best way to curry favor with anybody.

>> heidi, one thing i'm trying to figure out from bannon's standpoint, was he sitting down with michael wolff, aware that he was going to come to the end of his alliance with trump, that he wanted a big dramatic break, or was he shooting his mouth off and as surprised to find this all in prinlt lot looking like looks? >> that is the big question. we don't know when these comments were made and what the context was. steve bannon left in august. but this book has been in the works for many, many months. so was it payback, as well? we don't know. we do know that he's had tensions from the beginning, though, with the trump children, with jared, with ivanka. and maybe he did overstep a bit here and essentially implicating the president as well, unintentionally, implicate the president as knowing about that trump tower meeting. so i think the timing is important, because bannon has

also been feeling, i think on the outs in recent months. but especially now in light of the special election in alabama, where he really was viewed as the mastermind behind this disastrous campaign of roy moore, even though he wasn't the mastermind, he glomed onto that, and it was abembarran embarrass the president. >> and the president in that statement, the statement coming from the white house say thing is the president's words. if you read the statement, you have no trouble believing that. he does among other things accuse bannon of losing that senate seat for republicans down there in alabama. but peter baker, when steve bannon left the white house, he said basically i'm going out there to protect the president, i'm going out there to have the president's back in public, to lead that trump army out there in the country. that was supposed to be his role. breitbart is the site spouting words that would be in the administration's interest.

what could the future hold for steve bannon now? if the president is now his enemy, if he's lobbed all these grenades donald trump's way, obviously he can't be his chief defender in public, what is he going to become now? >> this is a great test who has resonance with that populist, nationalist base they cultivated together, is it president trump or steve bannon? steve bannon is the more intellectual, you know, adherent to the kind of ideas that base stands for. president trump seen as somebody who came along and took over and represented that base. it's -- it could fracture things. it could create internal warfare within that conservative movement. it was interesting to see breitbart's site on this. it takes a restrained view, not firing back at the president on this, and steve bannon privately has said to feel some confidence that the president might come

back to him, might need him when he's politically vulnerable and wants support from that movement. >> again, i say this apparently seems like the end of the permanent break here. but with this presidency, i think you never know. you always have to add that word "appears." bannon also takes the prospect of impeachment seriously, especially if the president fires mueller, saying -- >> again, kristen, it seems like he's going for the things that are going to upset and frustrate the president most right there. bigger picture here, within the republican party, if it's public warfare between donald trump and steve bannon, you had bannon talking about organizing these primary campaigns against the republican establishment, that he said was trying to thwart donald trump. what is this going to mean for the republican party now? >> well, i do think that it's

going to be divided in ways that we could not have perceived prior to these revelations. but remember, steve bannon was emboldened after the loss of roy moore. he doubled down. he said this just strengthened my resolve to fight this war against the establishment, to try to take on mitch mcconnell and all of his supporters, and again, from his perspective, he makes the case that he's staying true not only to the pop his base, but to the base of trump. and that way indirectly, he is ultimately helping out the presidency of donald trump. but clearly, again, he's doing just the opposite with some of these quotes that we learned about today. one more point i'll make, i think it's important to point out as you just did, his comments about robert mueller. the perspective of steve bannon that robert mueller is out for blood, that he's a killer, that he's going for the president and straight to the oval office and

he's been arguing for a long time for the legal team to get a whole lot tougher. i think you heard residents of that, in that quote you just talked about, steve. >> yeah, that's a very good segue to where we're going to be going next in this show. kristen, peter, heidi, thanks to all of you for joining us. coming up, more revelations from bannon about the russia investigation and where that might be going. bannon talks about money laundering saying the path to the president goes through paul manafort, jared kushner, and donald trump, jr. all this comes as the leaders of fusion gps, the opposition research firm that commissioned this dossier, are speaking out about what triggered the probe into trump and russia. plus, trump boasts his nuclear button is bigger and more powerful than kim jong-un is the latest example of loose talk about nuclear war from the president. much more from the new book on the trump white house, inclugd ivanka trump's political ambitions. remember when mitt romney

said donald trump was a phony, a fraud, playing the american public for suckers? we're going to take a look back at the complicated relationship between trump and romney, because it is back in the news in a big way. this is "hardball," where the action is. so, that goal you've been saving for, you can do it. we can do this. at fidelity, our online planning tools are clear and straightforward so you can plan for retirement while saving for the things you want to do today. -whoo!

the republican majority in the senate got a little narrower today. doug jones was sworn in as the new alabama senator. jones was sworn in alongside tina smith. she succeeds al franken in minnesota. the vice president mike pence administered the oath. today's swearing in brought three u.s. vice presidents together. you had bepence, walter mondale and joe biden. biden was there to escort doug jones into the senate chamber. mondale escorted tina smith, now his state's newest senator. we'll be right back.

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welcome back to "hardball." speaking to michael wolff for the new book "fire and fury," steve bannon didn't stop at calling that june 2016 campaign meeting with russians treasonous and unpatriotic. he said the mueller investigation was all about money laundering. their path to trump goes right through paul manafort, don, junior and jared kushner. he also said, there's no executive privilege, we proved that in watergate. trump and his defenders have tried to undermine the mueller probe, saying the fbi should not have used the christopher steele dossier to justify launching the russian investigation because it was financed but fusion gps. in "the new york times," founder of gps said they hired steele,

saying -- >> i'm joined now by ken delaney and ely stokeles. ken, let's just pick up that line from the fusion gps op-ed from "the new york times" i just read there. at the very end of that line, i saw when this went up last night caused quite a bit of commotion. when they're saying a source inside the trump campaign, some people were thinking that there's a trump campaign mole who is talking there. what do you know about that? >> that's right, steve. i got all excited, as well. it turns out that was a sly reference to george papadopoulos, who did ultimately begin giving the fbi inside information about the trump -- about what happened during the

election, but not right away. not during that time. so it's a little misleading. it's not a secret mole we've never heard of. >> to say it was a commotion online might be an understatement. but in terms oh of this question -- so the issue has been raised out there, the criticism from mueller, you're hearing from trump and some republicans now. is the idea that this dossier, this steele dossier provided through fusion gps, that this was the basis for the fbi's counterintelligence investigation or a source the fbi was relying on as it pursued the investigation. there was a report in "the new york times" saying no, it's actually papadopoulos. do we have any clarity what the dossier played in this investigation? >> we really don't. that's a great point you're raising. it is very clear that the dossier was not the trigger in and of itself. by the time christopher steele went to his fbi contact in rome with some of the information he

had been uncovering, the fbi had been in receipt of information through the cia from foreign governments about troubling contacts between members of the trump team and russia. and as fusion gps said in their op-ed, it was communicated that we already know some of this stuff, thanks for corroborating some of it. but it's not clear after that what role that christopher steele information played in the whole investigation. we have reported that the fbi was prepared to pay steele. steele was a reliable reporter. they knew him. fbi, cia knew this former british intelligence operative. he provided the fbi information before. so it's reasonable to assume that they relied in part on this information, that steele gathered. but they would never rely on information in an investigation that they didn't know the source of. clearly they had their own ways to gather information, including the national intelligence apparatus, eavesdropping, signal

intelligence. and that clearly was at play in this russian investigation. >> ely, this question of bannon, this book that folks might have heard about once or twice today. so you have steve bannon saying look, he's alarmed about this investigation. he thinks -- he raises this idea of money laundering. he creates a sequence that he says could lead mule tore the president. what do you make of bannon going forward and saying that? is he trying to sound some kind of alarm here for the white house? this issue of money laundering, what is your understanding what he's trying to say there? >> to me it sounded a lot like gloating today from steve bannon when we read these lines in the book. this is a person who we all know never liked jared kushner, never liked the president's adult children. starred with them in the white house. and seemed to be in his comments to michael wolff, really distancing himself from them and ridiculing them and blaming them in effect for where the

president finds himself in terms of being under investigation, for the russia meeting and all these other things. there are a lot of people who say don't get lost in the back and forth and the personal enmity between bannon and trump. what bannon is saying, whether it was smart to say it or not, when he's talking about money laundering, that would be a key to the investigation. people are saying don't discount that as the ramblings of a bitter old man, because money laundering could be at the heart of the special counsel's investigation, when you talk about deutsche bank, an organization that has leant hundreds of millions to donald trump, to jared kushner over the years, and is under investigation by a number of countries, including the u.s. justice department for ties to the russian government and money laundering charges there possibly. that is why it's so central to this investigation. it was reported in december that robert mueller had subpoenaed records from deutsche bank.

there's some confusion over whether or not those records are the president's personal records or people close to the president. but that is something that the special counsel is looking at. >> you're around the white house, talking to the folks there all the time. how much does that come up? when you talk to them about mueller and this investigation, how much of what they're talking about is about this question of russia and collusion versus how much are they talking about these other angles? >> they don't like to talk about it. the people closest to the president -- there is some fear about what could be coming from the special counsel. the president can go out there and say there's no collusion, there's no collusion, trying to sort of will his words into reality here. but there are some frayed nerves around the president and i'm sure the president himself is concerned about liability, not knowing what the special counsel already knows and what he may be looking at. there has just been, you know,

blow by blow, as information has come out and the special counsel has indicted people close to this president. the white house hasn't anticipated or gotten forewarning about this. so that creates a lot of nervousness, not knowing when the next shoe is going to drop. >> this michael wolff book also has the legal team of the president saying -- he believed the meeting on air force one represented an obstruction of justice. ken, a spokesman for the legal team saying that apparently. what do you make of that? >> it seems pretty damning, steve. we don't know the full facts there, but we do know that what donald trump instructed his son to say about that trump tower meeting, that it was about russian -- adoption of russian children and that was not accurate that. is a central question for robert mueller in terms of obstruction of justice. while there's no evidence that donald trump knew about the trump tower meeting when it was

happening, he cheer hi selear ho spin on his son's behalf. no reas bannon's judgment, while he portrays himself as anti-establishment, his political judgment on these matters comports with the main stream and is very different than donald trump. he advised trump he shouldn't fire comy, he said the trump tower meeting showed terrible judgment. that turns out to be reasonable. so bannon comes across looking more main stream than we might have thought. >> ken and ely, thanks for joining us. up next, president trump taunts the north korean dictator saying his nuclear button is bigger than kim jong-un's. more loose talk from the president, but does the white house have a plan to deal with

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tonight's jackpot on the powerball is $460 million. back to "hardball." ♪ i think it is -- shows really poor judgment for the president to -- to perform the way he does, particularly with tweets. but not just with his tweets. words matter. the only war that's worse than one that's intended is one that's unintended. this is not a game. this is not about his, you know, can i puff my chest out bigger than your chest. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was former vice president joe biden reacting to president trump's tweet last night, taunting the north korean leader. on monday, kim jong-un said "the

nuclear button is always on his desk." trump then responded -- >> white house press secretary sarah huckabee sanders was asked about that message today. >> should americans be concerned about the president's mental fitness, that he appears to be speaking so lightly about threats regarding nuclear button? >> i think the president and the people of this country should be concerned about the mental fitness of the leader of north korea. >> you just said people should question the mental fitness of kim jong-un, so then isn't it dangerous for the president to be taunting him on twitter? >> i don't think that it's taunting to stand up for the people of this country. i think what's dangerous is to ignore the continued threats. if the previous administration had done anything and dealt with north korea, dealt with iran, instead of sitting by and doing nothing, we wouldn't have to clean up their mess now.

>> i'm joined by gordon chang, a columnist for the daily beast and author of "the nuclear showdown, north korea takes on the world." thanks for joining us. that tweet, mine is bigger, i've got the button, it is in response to something the north korean leader said. i think the bottom line question is, do you think that is, and do you see that as a strategic tweet on trump's part or an impulsive tweet? >> certainly impulsive. yesterday there were two tweets from the president about north korea. the one in the this morning was a good one. it talked how sanctions were hurting the north korean regime. that's important. if there's any peaceful solution to this, it is basically sanctioning north korea to the point where they realize they have to give up their weapons. you come to the evening and that tweet, we're not talking about that strategic tweet, we're not talking about ambassador nikki haley who in the afternoon set down america's negotiating

guidelines. of course, we're talking about a schoolyard tweet. that's unfortunate. he needs to talk about sanctions. >> that implied threat has always been there, from the united states towards north korea. you got a nuke, you try to use it, we'll wipe it out. i remember clinton even saying it. the president then tweeting it out like this. does that change north korea's posture at all from anything we've seen in the past? >> kim jong-un probably liked that tweet, because what it did was, it put him on the same he feel as the president of the united states. and yes, it is a juvenile fight. but nonetheless, they see themselves as equal to us now. we can prevent that. that's within our control. we let that happen. of course, kim jong-un right now is at a very sensitive point, trying to drive this wedge between the united states and south korea. but also between the united states and china and the united

states and russia. chi ch president trump can change that narrative, but he's got to work at it now. >> some of donald trump's past comments about nuclear weapons have raised questions about his knews on the most dangerous weapons in the world. he called on the u.s. to strengthen and expand its nuclear capability, saying he's willing to engage in an arms race, warning kim jong-un that mill tiitary solutions are in p, locked and loaded. here's what he said in 2016. >> you have no problem with japan having nuclear weapons? >> at some point, we are better off saying if japan protecting itself, we're better off if south korea protects itself. nuclear should be off the table -- >> the whole world it, they're

hearing it. every president of the united states talking about using nuclear weapons. >> why do we make of them in >> because of the mutual assured destruction. >> i would be the last one to use a nuclear weapon. i would never take any cards off the table. >> how about in europe? >> i'm not going to take it off the table. >> you might use it in europe? >> no, i don't think so. but i am not taking cards off the table. >> that seems to be, if you can discern from that, a sort of policy logic. it seems to be i won't take anything off the table, because that would weaken me. what do you think of that? >> american presidents have always said all options are on the table. but you don't have to say it in those terming. the clip that i thought was significant was the first one. goes back to march of last one where you had basically trump

saying we're willing to walk away from south korea and japan. they can develop their own arsenals. that's where china started to get on board with trump. they thought the u.s. was leaving. american policy since trump took the oath of office, it's the same as it was before. nonetheless, that unnerved our allies in seoul and tokyo. >> there's a report today that south korea and north korea have reopened a sensitive hotline in that demilitarized zone. what does that mean? >> it means that north korea wants south korean money. the sanctions are hurting. in kim jong-un's new years address, he hinted at that and came out and said it that sanctions are a threat to his state. so trump's plan is working, but no one knows that because we're talking about the size of the button, not the underlying american policies. and trump needs to talk about those underlying policies.

>> gordon change, thank you for coming in. up next, much more from that book about the trump white house, including ivanka trump maybe had plans of her own for a presidential run. you're watching "hardball." reli. suppositories for relief in minutes. and dulcoease for comfortable relief of hard stools. dulcolax. designed for dependable relief. he gets the best deal on the perfect hotel by using. tripadvisor! that's because tripadvisor lets you start your trip on the right foot... by comparing prices from over 200 booking sites to find the right hotel for you at the lowest price. saving you up to 30%! you'll be bathing in savings! tripadvisor. check the latest reviews and lowest prices.

welcome back to "hardball." we're back now with that book about life inside the trump white house. author michael wolff writes this about ivanka trump's political aspirations -- >> let's bring in the roundtable.

it feels to me -- it have beeob there's a lot of bannon's perspective in this book. one of the things that jumps out at me in these sections about bannon and jared kushner and ivanka, the frustration that he felt trying to guide the administration and having family members right there. >> you can't fire family members, right? it was ultimately not a fair fight. everybody knew it wasn't going to be a fair fight if you were bannon. that's part of the reason why you generally don't hire family members. that's why we have nepotism laws. because if they screw up, if they are fighting with other members of your office or your administration or what have you, then you can't get rid of them. and so you can understand why bannon was frustrated. from my perspective, it's hard to know who to root for, because they're all incredibly problematic for lots of different reasons. but you can get rid of bannon, spicer, priebus, but the

president's daughter, the president's son-in-law? sorry, you can't fire them. >> we seem to be getting bannon's perspective. but the perspective emerging from this book is that jared, that ivanka didn't even have specific portfolios here. this was the things they were doing every day. they just flitted from one task to the other, while other folks around them tried to exercise discipline. >> the one thing we do know about jared and ivanka, they're both highly unqualified to be anywhere near washington, d.c. both have them have gotten where they are because of their daddies. they are not public servants, why are they in washington, d.c., sitting in on these meetings? i can't stress enough the lack of qualification. when you have bannon, who traffics with antisemites, that he would be in a room with jared

kushner, and use him as a partner, he'll have to deal wit he's also the father of trump's grandchildren. so no, he's not going to get fired. but the two are in way over their heads. this is the result. >> so it creates a situation where jared and ivanka is still there, bannon is on the outside taking shots. rick, veteran of republican party politics, you must have stories about family members and campaigns and trying to do the job with family members lurking around. >> sure. none of which i would hike to share. it turns out that steve bannon also has a nuclear button on his desk and he pushed it today. and so it's remarkable that he's implicating the president at the same time. it's been no secret that bannon doesn't like what he refers to as jivanka, jared and ivanka, because they have the president's ear. say what you will about steve

bannon. he believes stuff. he has an ideology and he wants to follow that ideology. >> do you think this is a strategic break for him, or was he venting and he didn't realize how much was going to end up in print? >> i'm sure he realized it. he invited michael wolff into the white house at the request of steve bannon. michael wrote a book. he didn't make up the stuff, he interviewed 200 people and wrote down what they said. >> that raises the possibility, if this is premeditated on bannon's start, the implications for the trump era republican party are huge if you have trump and bannon at war with each other. bannon, if it's true, this is premeditated, has some endgame in mind here. >> maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. bannon was throwing bombs into republican party, basically for the last several years. this is not a new strategy for him. it is a different outcome in that he's had a public split

with trump. who knows what that means for the bannon wing of the party. i saw don junior was on twitter scouring the comments on breitbart and breitbart readers are unhappy. you know you're reaching to the bottom of the barrel when you're looking for breitbart commenters for validation. we don't know what it means for trump or the bannon wing. it's not clear that either of them, trump or bannon, is going to end up stronger at the end of this. >> the roundtable is staying with us. up next, a rivalry that could shake 2018, maybe beyond. mitt romney has blasted trump's bullying, greed and third grade antics. now romney could be headed to washington and could be one of the president's biggest opponents. you're watching "hardball."

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welcome back to "hardball." nbc news reports that it is now a matter of when and not if mitt romney will announce his bid fo. this comes after republican senator orrin hatch announced yesterday that he will retire in 2018. the two republicans have had a very different type of relationship with president trump in the past. >> mr. president, i have to say that you're living up to every -- everything i thought you would. you're one heck of a leader. >> donald trump is a phony, a fraud. his promises are as worthless as a degree from trump university. >> he's been one of the best presidents i've served under. >> he's playing the members of the american public for suckers. he gets a free ride to the white house, and all we get is a lousy hat. >> president trump hasn't had a problem attacking romney. >> i backed mitt romney. i backed him.

you can see how loyal he is. he was begging for my endorsement. i could have said, mitt, drop to your knees and he would have dropped to his knees. he was begging. he choked like a dog. you ever see them in athletics? he's a choker! and he walks like a penguin onto the stage. you ever see him? like a penguin. >> but the two men appeared to have a somewhat cordial relationship at least when then president-elect trump considered romney for secretary of state. nbc news reports that romney might not run as a pure anti-trump republican. we're back here with our roundtable, katherine, christina and rick. that's a key question, christina. if it looks like romney wins the senate seat, which romney shows up in washington, the guy who's calling trump a fraud or the guy who's dining with him after the election? >> we don't know. we've seen romney actually, as the clips have shown, stand up to him but we saw all of those republicans stand behind donald trump after the tax bill was passed. and just prostate themselves in front of the man.

just praising him as though he's a dictator from a developing nation. i mean so we don't know because we have seen mitt romney switch. hopefully the mitt romney that has some integrity, the mitt romney who is the son of george romney, governor of michigan, former presidential candidate who actually cared about the american people, mitt romney needs to remember he is second generation public servant. hopefully that mitt romney will show up and not the one who goes along to get long with the rest of his republican colleagues. >> rick, christina points to the tax bill. basically you got universal republican support there. almost all the republicans were onboard for that obamacare repeal. it does raise the question, the republicans who have expressed criticism of trump seem to be more about tone, about style. when it comes to substantive policy on most of these key questions, they have been there. where does romney fall in that? is his disagreement on tone? is his issue on policy? >> i don't know. do you get mitt romney the

obamacare, or romneycare governor of massachusetts or do you get the utah very conservative mormon save the olympics. if he runs -- >> well, it's not always been clear with romney in the past. >> no. and if you listen to his staff now, what i find interesting is the tone because the juxtaposition between trump and his tone and what they're saying about romney now is he's going to give the senator a chance to bask in the sun for his retirement. so he's doing all the right things. but are people ready to go back to that sort of politician that lost. we had 16 of them in the republican party, all very -- all their comments were planned, they all sounded like politicians. trump comes along, blows it all up and wins. so i don't know. look, romney will be a senator, there's no question in my mind about it. i don't think -- look, he got punked by trump. remember, trump didn't want him to be secretary of state. he wanted to prove to him that i'm in charge and you're not coming on this administration. >> as supposedly there was that

story there was a demand for a public apology from romney. romney didn't do that and now you've got rex tillerson there. but it is interesting, if it is a question of when mitt romney runs and not if, it certainly looks likely he'd win, katherine. he would be in a unique position among the republicans in washington. his popularity in utah, i could try to quantify it for everybody and it wouldn't do justice. utah is also as red states go a very anti-trump state. he got 13% there in the republican primaries last year, 45% in the general. that's 35 points worse than a republican normally does. all of those republicans in washington who are afraid they break with trump their base gets mad at them -- >> it would not apply to romney. the last approval ratings i had seen for romney was 69%, 70% within utah and for trump it was 40 something percent. so romney is significantly more popular. he does not necessarily have to worry about his base retaliating or his voter constituency

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all right, we're back with the "hardball" roundtable. katherine, tell me something i don't know. >> preparations for the 2020 census, which as you know is required by the constitution, they're already behind schedule, they're already severely

underfunded. the department of justice is trying to get census to add an additional question on citizenship to that census, which is likely to depress turnout -- or participation of hispanics, which will lead to major implications for how congressional seats get divvied up and how funding gets divvied up. >> christina. >> everyone is looking at congress and, you know, senate races and what's going on in 2018, but since we know that republicans control the vast majority of governorships and the vast majority of state houses, i'm looking at all the women who are running for governor, especially stacy abrams running for governor of georgia. if she wins, he would be the first black female governor in the history of the united states. >> a race to keep an eye on. rick. something you do know but is worth repeating. while we cover "fire & fury" there are people in iran that wants freedom. the united states needs to be emblematic of that freedom so people can say that's what we want to represent and we're not doing that right now. >> thanks to all of you for being with us. that is "hardball" for now. thank you at home for being with

us. and "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> you knew damn well i was a snake before you took me in. >> donald trump and steve bannon go to war. >> it's not going to get better, it's going to get worse every day. >> he levels explosive accusations in a new book. >> did the president's son, donald trump jr., commit treason? >> tonight, fallout from "fire & fu fury" including an irate president. >> i think furious, disgusted would probably certainly fit. >> an inner circle describing trump as an idiot and a dope. and an intense trump family soap opera behind it all. >> i don't think that any of us necessarily got the shy gene. >> as republicans try to block the release of the fusion gps transcripts, why steve bannon says the mueller investigation is, quote, all about