alongside ayman mohyeldin. >> lying ted. oh, he lies. senator ted cruz, like, dislike, like. paul ryan, you know, open borders and amnesty and lots of other -- and bad budgets, by the way. very, very bad budgets. our great speaker, paul ryan. and he is a great speaker. >> thanks. >> great job. >> i am disappointed in the attorney general. >> do you stand by jeff sessions as your attorney general? >> yes, i do. >> steve has been a friend of mine for a long time. i like steve a lot. i guess sloppy steve brought him into the white house quite a bit and that's one of those things -- so sloppy steve is now looking for a job. >> i'm confused. i would be a wreck if i was in a relationship like that. >> the mental gyrations there.

>> mental gymnastics. >> up and down. >> i've heard that before. >> up and down. up and down. >> donald trump has plenty of love/hate relationships. so is steve bannon's mea culpa enough to bring him back into president trump's loving inner circle? you have to take the oath, you know. michael wolff's new book describes a white house in chaos. >> we also have with us steven miller. no, we won't. that was something. holy moly. >> i could have told you. >> the thing is, i don't know if we're supposed to be shocked by that, but barnicle -- >> no. >> we saw that last season, in the debut season of trump the presidency. i already saw that steven miller episode and was like, wait a second. i don't know what this is. >> maybe one of his principle policy advisers sent on to, i mean, embarrass himself,

speaking as jake tapper aptly pointed out, to an audience of one. >> audience of one. >> it was horrifically embarrassing. >> when you worked, elise, for other presidents and the state department, we would actually send people that worked for the united states of america on sunday shows to send messages to friends and enemies alike across the globe. now we send -- white house sends people out just to kiss up to the president of the united states. >> it's their opportunity. >> and what's so remarkable, everybody knows that is the only purpose. it is, as jake tapper said, to be obsequeious and humiliate yourself in hopes that the president will be excited. >> president bush had men and women working for him that were representing the interest of the united states and the american people. it was about the american peo e

people, not just about performing for an audience of one. >> right. >> embarrassingly, which is what we got yesterday with the steven miller show. it's a show we've seen before and we'll see again. >> he's playing to a guy with autocratic tendencies. >> i had friends that went to paris over the holiday. >> paris, texas, right? >> paris, france. they said they were embarrassed to be americans. they said it was the first time that it was sort of chilling, that they didn't even want to share where they were from. >> you know, will -- >> also this morning -- >> hold on a second. i have to say something here. you're not going to like this. just people being embarrassed. andrew sullivan, andrew sullivan has really -- i have to say when barack obama became president of the united states, i believed that his column had turned into a cheering section for barack obama, no matter what. and he has -- somebody told me a

month ago you have to start reading andrew sullivan again. every column spot on and important. listen to this. good way to start the week, everybody. andrew sullivan talked about optimism in the age of trump. part of this, i guess, is because so many other indicators in the world are remarkably good right now. he's saying in spite of donald trump. economic growth is now ubequitous, even in japan. in america we are in a record eighth year. let's say that again. eighth year of economic growth. not first year. we are in eighth year of economic growth, bringing peek employment and finally a bump in earnings. median household income is now the highest in history. let me say that again. median income for households highest in history. dow is at 25,000. medicine has effectively abolished most diseases that used to kill us all in mass numbers. illegal border crossings into

the u.s. have fallen to record lows. as we were saying every day on this show before donald trump was president of the united states that the wall was a stupid idea because, actually, border crossings were at record lows even at the end of the obama administration. >> going out. >> crime rates are at historic lows. and they were when barack obama was president. this past year, we just saw was new york's lowest since they started taking records. and they keep declining in ways that simply baffle criminologists. fossil fuels, global conflict continues its centuries' old decline. isis has been destroyed in its own heartland. i must say, something that we were saying was happening even before donald trump was elected president of the united states. anyone with a phone has access to more learning and knowledge than at any point in human history. more people live in democracies today than a dozen years ago,

something that we said last week, despite all of our concerns. and they kill fewer people -- wars kill fewer people in a far more populous world and you see the biggest decline in global poverty ever. the point is that andrew sullivan believes, and i believe, that we may survive this trump presidency in spite of donald trump and so many of the people around, who just aren't qualified to be in the white house. but there are areas that we have to remain vigilant on the rule of law. >> i think it's -- >> just how he treats -- >> great you point that out. there are reasons to be optimistic. you can also be embarrassed at the same time. >> the fact that the president of the united states is not stable. >> he is not. >> you can say whatever you want to say about him. >> it's embarrassing. >> he's not stable. that said, a lot of good things are going for us, not only here, but across the globe. if donald trump and republicans

in washington would just do their job and do it in a way that respects constitutional norms and, finally, if the university of alabama wins tonight. that will be andrew sullivan -- >> so glad you interrupted me for that. >> mike, the kids on the upper west side, think about how thrilled they are. they're waking up this morning and they're going, oh, my god, finally, a national, national championship. >> i know. >> this is actually dixie's version of the super bowl. alabama, which is birmingham is an hour and a half, two hours from atlanta, against georgia, whose campus is about an hour from atlanta. they're both going to atlanta. this is like dixie youth baseball championships we had growing up. foss point, mississippi, would play -- >> nothing captures the imagination of the people in new

york than alabama. to your point about andrew sullivan's piece, once you get away from what we were doing for a living, what everybody in our industry does for a living which verges on, rightfully so, obsession with the collapse of the trump administration and the questions about the president's stability, this is an enormously optimistic country every day. >> yes. >> every day. people get up, go to work, raise their families, pay their taxes, with a sense of optimism. >> not to get too off base here but last night oprah did that, she gave a speech that gave hope and reminded people what is so great about this country and how we still have so much to be hopeful for. i'm glad she was given that award and had that platform. >> and we'll talk to about all the women. >> yes. >> i disagree with george w. bush on a lot of things. i had problems with bill clinton. we could go back 50 years and find the weaknesses and the bad

policies of this president or that president. but we've had half a century of presidents. we've had over 200 years of presidents for the most part, who have put the good of america and put the good of people -- >> that's the bottom line. >> -- first. and these men who are being booed, john mccain, by republicans at the california gop gatherings, george w. bush and george h.w. bush at south florida gatherings, these men are too good for the people who even boo them. donald trump is just not in their league because he puts himself first. we are seeing at the end of 50 years the results of the post war order that the united states helped put together and lead. and that is what donald trump wants to deconstruct. that is what america must fight

against. >> also with us this morning, national political reporter for axios, jonathan swan. "new york times" reporter, jeremy peters. let's get this in. the trump administration spent much of the weekend fighting back against michael wolff's book with a full-on offensive on the sunday shows and tweets by the president. in a string of early morning tweets saturday, the president defended his mental fitness, claiming now that russian collusion, after one year of intense study, has proven to be a total hoax on the american public, the democrats and their lapdogs, fake news mainstream media are taking out the old ronald reagan playbook and screaming mental stability and intelligence. he goes on. actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being like really smart. >> like really smart. >> why did he put "like" in there? >> like, you know, kind of like. >> is he doing valley girl speak

in a tweet? you wasted six characters? >> i guess that's -- >> not very smart. >> in the 1960s, like -- >> like -- >> should tell him not to put like in there. crooked hillary also played these cards very hard and, as everyone knows, went down in flames. i went from very successful businessman to top tv star to president of the united states on my first try. i think that would qualify as not matter but genius, a very stable genius at that. and here is the president speaking at his camp david retreat with cabinet members and congressional leaders, challenging wolff's book that quotes staff members who describe his behavior as childlike. >> this morning you were tweeting about your mental state. why did you feel the need to tweet about that this morning? >> only because i went to the best colleges or college.

i went to a -- i had a situation where i was a very excellent student. came out. made billions and billions of dollars, became one of the top business people. went to television. and for ten years was a tremendous success, as you probably have heard, ran for president one time and won and then i hear this guy that does not know me, doesn't know me at all. by the way, didn't interview me for three -- said he interviewed me for three hours in the white house. didn't exist, okay? it's in his imagination. >> said no smart guy. >> no. >> in the world. i never met -- it's kind of like war heroes. war heroes refuse to talk about why they're war heroes. i found for the most part that people who really are smart don't talk about it. >> yeah. >> and that's a guy -- i don't think -- >> not well. >> that never -- i don't think i've ever met anybody more insecure. being elected president of the

united states has actually made him even more insecure, which i just -- >> can i point out we've met a lot of people who made a lot of money and definitely a lot of people in television who are really narcissistic and stupid. >> yeah. >> so i'm not sure why that would be on his resume. >> correlation here. >> unbelievably narcissistic and stupid. >> i stare at the ceiling -- >> paranoid. >> stare at the ceiling and go why are those dumb people making so much money? >> it's incredible. >> jeremy peters, donald trump, the president of the united states are tweeting out the i are smart strategy over the weekend. what is behind that -- i want to say thinking. i don't think it's thinking. >> no. >> that amoeba-like response to outside stimuli? >> these accusations in the book cut deep, joe.

and, you know why they cut deep? because while bannon is out there, saying, well, this isn't really what i meant to say and other white house officials are denying they said it all together, the fact is that this is what white house officials say privately. they are concerned about the president's outbursts. they are concerned, at times, about his childlike impulsiveness and nothing that really is in the general idea, in michael wolff's book is irrefutable. that is that people around the president are concerned about his behavior. why else sent administration officials out on national television for basically what was meant to be a public execution of a former white house aide? that's what they did. they sent the cia director, steven miller, who was, of course, notably steve bannon's former protege during the campaign and for a time in the

white house out there for the ultimate indignity, saying that bannon was vindictive, that he had no role in the president's success. i mean, that was meant to just be the ultimate kill shot. and i think that explains why the white house is acting so savageely and mercilessly. >> we want viewers to know what's happening behind the scenes that they may not hear on other shows. like, for instance, during barack obama's first two years as president, we all had one senior democratic senator after another come to us and basically say he's a rookie. he doesn't know what he's doing. it's embarrassing. he always thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. it would serve him well to actually talk to us. then, of course, they would all go up and say barack obama, greatest guy ever. well, here, we've seen this

weekend one cabinet member after another go out and say oh, i've never said he's not a moron on the stupidest person on the face of the earth and not as dumb as a -- you know, whatever. >> rock. >> but we've all heard it. we've all heard it from republicans on the hill. we've all heard it from cabinet members. we've all heard it from some of the same people. and i can say it, who were lying on tv this weekend. they have all said he is like a child. he has no attention span. he doesn't read and he is getting worse, his ability to focus is getting worse. look at his schedule. the executive time now that is expanding out, so he spends less time in the office and less time just staring at a tv. >> we read a piece because obviously the michael wolff book came out and was decrcreating a sensation. and one of the things that he did controversially in the book was take off the record conversations and put them on the record. now for the public who don't

really care about the washington inside game, that was quite relevantry. there are deeper truths in that book in terms of what people who work for donald trump say about him privately versus what they say about him publicly. we said this. we're not going to betray off-the-record conversations but we can say that these things ring true in the book. and what rings true is the widespread contempt that a lot of these aides have for the president of the united states. the questioning of his intelligence, competence, experience. all these things, things that we've heard now for the last 12 months, as he has taken office and now we're seeing it sort of being aired in this book. >> jeremy peters, i thought it was very interesting. through the weekend you would find somebody say oh, that's not true, as if it's going to

discredit the entire book. somebody standing on the top of a garbage pile in the middle of the astrodome and they find one thing. oh, wait, this isn't -- when the truth is we all know that the overall portrait painted by michael wolff's book is deadly accurate. he said some things that weren't factually correct about us. he said some things that were factually incorrect about this show. but he got the bigger points right. >> details in some places may be off. generalliy speaking, there is not anything that steve bannon or other senior aides are saying in this book that we've not heard privately from senators, members of congress, people who used to work on this campaign. that is just a fact. now, i think the question is, joe, is steve bannon just the only one to get caught here? is he the only one to get

busted? and are we six, 12, 18 months from now going to see kind of a dam break of these similar criticisms of trump? because i don't think this is sustainable. i don't think you can have this level of chaos and dysfunction in the white house. and, quite honestly, this level of disloyalty to the president. i mean, that's why these allegations are spilling out the way they are now, because people don't feel any loyalty to him because they can't trust when he's going to go off on them. so, i do wonder if this is just the beginning and if steve bannon is the only one right now to get caught saying these things that everyone else has been saying. >> it's a great point. there's no need to wonder. mika, what you're going to find is that as we move forward, you're going to find one person after another person after another person that leaves the white house who are going to want to salvage their reputation

and salvage their career. they're all going to have their versions of how i tried to save the republican. >> right. >> and, i mean, it's going to happen. we are hearing -- we hear it all off the record. and, i mean, the dam is going to break at some point. >> it's impossible this continues. i'm not sure how it breaks and i'm not sure if republicans will have the courage to be part of that. >> i don't think so. >> that's amazing. >> i think they're going to have to be destroyed in the mid term elections. >> it's amazing. >> it really is. >> it's amazing that mitch mcconnell and paul ryan -- we just have to focus on those two right now. they're the leaders. it's amazing that those two continue to stand by this man after he has insulted them, first of all. and also after -- they know he's doing irreparable harm to the party. >> that's correct, and to the country. >> and lindsey graham has completely -- look, completely

flipped. and so, mike barnicle -- >> for dinner at the white house. >> i guess, and to golf at his exquisitely laid out 18-hole -- he has become the president's -- >> up up boy. he's an up up boy. >> i don't know what that means. >> it means you -- >> push him up. >> stand up for the president constantly, continually. the interesting thing about michael wolff's book snads to the conversations is that most of the anecdotal evidence he assembled in the book was known by us and others prior to the inauguration. it's just a constant stream of things your familiar with because you've been told and it leads to the question that i think a lot of people are asking internally in the white house that i've heard now for the past several days. who is running the country? and it comes down to john kelly and jim mattis. those are the two most important

figures in the american government. >> they do not control president trump's twitter feed. and we've seen the horrible destruction that he can weld through social media. >> yeah. >> and his unhinged impulsivity and if john kelly has no oversight on that, donald trump is in control. >> certainly when it comes to foreign affairs. ahead on "morning joe," author michael wolff joins us on set for an extended interview. we'll get his reaction to steve bannon's semi apology. john swan has new reporting on the president's schedule. we'll have him explain what executive time is. i would like some executive time. nbc's carol lee has brand new reporting on how the trump legal team is preparing in case bob mueller asks to interview the president. first we go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill? >> man, it's so cold. >> bad.

>> it was so cold. what are you doing? i've been in connecticut for seven, eight years. >> the worst. >> it was -- i mean -- >> you were negative 10 yesterday morning or something like that. >> and the wind blowing. i got to the point where i was like, hey, i made a mistake going i love winter here. yesterday morning i got up and said i don't love winter here anymore. >> all the ponds are frozen. unless you want to be outside in negative degrees it wasn't very fun. the thaw is on its way. the weather pattern has changed and we're going to warm up. difficult commute, icy conditions from northern georgia all the way through the ohio valley. enough for a lot of school delays, too. chicago went above freezing at midnight for the first time since december 23rd. that's been about two weeks for everyone below freezing. finally that warm air is on the way. milwaukee is at 39. we do get some of the warmth into the east tomorrow. i know that dc will be near 40

degrees. atlanta hits 56. the real warm stuff is in texas. we have to wait on the east coast to thursday and friday. we'll see a significant warm-up. dc hits nearly 60 friday. the bad part is it will be raining, too. it will be a mess out there. melting snow, warm temperatures, fog. boston gets up to 53 by the end of this week. real big storm, we have a little bit today. we have to watch southern california today. they'll get three to six inches of rain, those areas that had the fires and mud and debris flow. they need the rain. it seems they can't win anyways, no matter what happens. new york city, a brief period of light snow or freezing rain around 3:00 to 5:00 today. that's the case for a lot of the i-95 corridor.

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we know life can be hectic. that's why, at xfinity, we've been working hard to simplify your experiences with us. now, with instant text and email updates, you'll always be up to date. you can easily add premium channels, so you don't miss your favorite show. and with just a single word, find all the answers you're looking for - because getting what you need should be simple, fast, and easy. download the xfinity my account app or go online today. >> it's tragic and unfortunate that steve would make these grotesque comments so out of touch with reality and,

obviously, so vindictive. and the whole white house staff is deeply disappointed in his comments. it reads like an angry, vindictive person spouting off to a highly discredible author. and i think that the president's statement on steve settles, once and for all, the view about all of that. >> no, no, let's talk about that. i want to talk about that. >> let's dig into your comment about he's also the president's chief strategist. one of the other tragedies of this grotesque work affliction is portrayal of the president. the reality is that the president is a political genius. all these so-called political geniuses in washington, whether it be the big lobbying firms or -- >> the only person who has called himself a genius in the past week is the president. >> which happens to be a true statement. self-made billionaire who revolutionized tv. >> i'm sure he's watching and

likes that. >> you can be con descending. it's a snide remark. he's watching and is happy. >> why that condescending? >> your network -- you can be as condescending as you want. it's your m.o. >> i don't know why you're attacking me. >> i'll explain why i'm talking tacking you. >> the president's travel ban that he helped -- >> i'm so glad you brought that up. that's one of the items in the book. >> steven? >> jake, jake. >> the president and the white house -- >> the reason i want to talk about -- >> the president and the white house -- >> the reason i want to talk about the president's experiences, what i've seen about him traveling to meet dozens of foreign leaders with his incredible work. >> you're not answering the questions. i understand. >> 24 hours a day of anti-trump material. you're not going to give three minutes for the american people to hear the real -- >> there's one viewer you care about right now. you're being obsequeious.

you've wasted enough of my time. >> jake, do you know who i care about? >> democrats are now coming to his defense. what changed? we'll ask the top democrat on the house intelligence committee next. >> that wouldn't have lasted that long. >> no. >> good job. >> one thing after another. donald trump, self-made billionai billionaire, he says who, of course, inherited hundreds of millions of dollars from his father's empire. >> that's not self made. that's called getting money from your daddy. >> destroyednd ran up a $9 billion debt. >> went bankrupt. >> couple of times. >> do you know who really is a self-made billionaire? oprah. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> jonathan swan -- >> that was -- i'm glad that jake tapper cut it short but i would have cut it short after about the second answer with his droning, obsequei oous suck up.

who wants to hear that? >> before that, didn't we read, jonathan, that he, steven miller, had to be escorted from the cnn set? >> yeah. that came out last night. >> that's incredible. >> that was quite something. >> someone is a little unself aware. >> apparently he was politely asked to leave and then the security had to escort him, according to a cnn source through cbs. that's quite something. >> that's something. >> talk about executive time. >> it sounds like joe time. >> i would like more executive -- this remind mees -- >> you have enough joe time. >> george w. bush, when he was governor of texas, had executive time and around lunchtime he would play golf on his computer for about an hour and a half. that was his executive time as governor. what about donald trump's executive time? >> how much is there?

>> seems to be expanding out quite a bit. >> what we reported last night on axios is that the president's schedule has been secret lly shrinking over many months. early days of the administration you had early morning meetings, breakfast round tables with business leaders in the roosevelt room. but these days, donald trump has his first meeting in the oval office at 11:00 a.m. >> wow! >> what? >> and there are two schedules. there's the public schedule that they release to the media and to the public and then there's the real schedule. and i was shown the real schedule. and there has a block of time in the morning from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. labeled executive time. it says it's in the oval office but that's not true. he's actually in the residence, watching tv, making phone calls, tweeting. and he has his first meeting of the day at 11:00 a.m. >> oh, my god. i said oh, my god, that's incredible. president of the united states.

he is in his pjs, tweeting until 11:00. >> i think the staff is making the wrong decision, keeping him out of operations. here is the thing. he is left to his own devices wiech. why not bring him in and engage him? >> i would rather do that and causing chaos than have everybody go i love you, mr. president, because you're so beautiful. your hair is so great. >> catch 22. >> love you, mr. president. so, jonathan, so how long has this been going on? and what is the goal? is the goal to keep him out of the oval office or is it just that this is what he wants to do? >> yeah. it's driven by trump. he was early on complaining about his schedule. quite crammed in the early days from morning to night. trump began showing up later, did the president briefing ended up settling around 10:30. now it's later and the first meeting of the day is at 11:00

a.m. >> wait. jonathan, he works at home, and he only has to walk down stairs to -- >> doesn't have to get dressed. >> to go to his office and 11:00 in the morning? before 11:00 is too early for him? >> well, his staff countered by saying -- it's true, he doesn't sleep and he's up at ungodly hours in the morning. but the fact is that it's undisciplined and quite scattershot time where he's tweeting, making phone calls, watching tv. you see the effects of it on twitter. this is not a mystery to the world from anyone who follows his twitter feed at 6:00 a.m. >> and we were surprised by president obama's 9:00 to 6:00 schedule. >> those were the good old day. >> coming up on "morning joe." >> lot of people have said -- lot of people have written that without my rhetoric and without my tough stance -- it's not just a stance. i mean, this is what has to be

done if it has to be done, that they wouldn't be talking about olympics, that they wouldn't be talking right now. >> north and south korea meet tomorrow for the first time in two years. so, how much is president trump impacting the situation there? we're going to ask richard haas. how do you win at business?

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okay. joining us now the president of the council on foreign relations, richard haas. >> out with a new -- >> we're vaping his book. >> it smells like, actually -- >> woven disarray featuring a brand new afterward. morning shows, we talk about how richard's book is different ways of doing breakfast features like eggs and bacon and how to cook. >> mainly, though, he's a saucier from way back. willie geist -- willie's not here but did you bring -- >> to help you grill. >> i'll wear it every morning. >> i'm hoping willie is watching right here. >> what does this say? >> a world in disarray. does it say something about his -- >> i'm going to cook you a meal

in this. >> perfect for your barbecue. >> slaughter a chicken and cook it for dinner, blood all over it. >> for those of you who are waking up terribly confused willie geist and i for some time have been joking about all the great recipes that are in a world in disarray. it all became because of the grill lines on the cover. so, richard, i take it you have a new afterward. i remember reading this, what, a year, year and a half ago? >> right. >> being struck by how timely it was then, even more timely now. what do we see in the afterward? >> it was a world in disarray who donald trump inherited the 45th president, whoever it was, would have a tough time of it. what he has done is make the situation considerably worse. i'm used to great powers fading. they get exhausted or someone else surpasses them. we are still number one.

yet we've voluntarily elected to take ourselves off the field. the word i use is abdicate. the game isn't worth it anymore. we're not going to be a leading player in the world, not going to stay part of this or that organization. >> richard, you can't look at the chaos of the last year, which has been the worst that i think this country has had to deal with foreign policy in a very, very long time. but you can't look at where we are today without also looking at the fact that foreign policy people across the world were complaining about barack obama being largely absent from the international stage and the chaos that george w. bush's neocon dreams caused. the fact that the united states is still as strong as it is after 17 years of failed foreign policy really is remarkable and speaks to just how strong we are as a nation, how resilient we are as a nation. >> i think historians will say george w. bush tried to do way too much in iraq, tried to

transform a country that simply wasn't teed up to be changed. barack obama, the biggest argument will be that he did way too little, from the syrian red line to putting a timeline on u.s. forces in afghanistan. donald trump has actually accelerated that. the first president who ever said the benefits of world leadership aren't worth the costs. we're getting screwed by our allies, to use a technical word, by trade agreements and we're not going to do what we've done. >> my argument about china and has been for the past five years, china is not all that we have been puffing china up to be. we heard the same thing about japan in 1987, 1988, 1989. unfortunately, over the past year, donald trump has given every advantage possible to china. he has given every advantage possible to them economically, diplomatically. how much worse is our standing in relations to china as our

rival, premier rival on the world stage? >> first week of his presidency he took the united states out of the transpacific partnership. that was the mechanism for pushing back against china, making our allies feel secure and basically telling china, you want to continue benefiting from the economic interactions in the world you've got to play the game more by our rules. we're going to raise the standards. you have to raise your game. instead now we're essentially saying to china, you can dominate on terms you like that make you comfortable. that is a strategic and economic mistake of the first order. >> richard, we're going to talk to you about what's happening in pakistan, what's happening in iran. >> grilling eggs. >> i was going to get to that. you've got to let me pace it. >> i can't wait to cook for y'all. >> we're going to talk about pakistan, iran and we're going to talk about north korea and also we're going to talk about those tiny little riblets you have and how you grill them. >> i'm going to learn. >> page 183, the recipe.

>> we'll continue this conversation a lot more. stay with us. still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> if they are investigating hillary clinton, it doesn't take a genius, let alone a staple genius to see why. it's not because of new evidence that's come to light. it's because they're being badgered by the white house to do it. these cracks that we're seeing and the independence of the justice department ought to concern every american. >> wow! >> he's right. >> top democrat says politics -- >> are you going to be wearing that the rest of the show? >> i might. i have to go to the other set over there and cook and then scurry back. >> it's a morning show, isn't it? >> it is a morning show. >> that's what we do. top democrat says politics are influencing the justice department. can the same be said for the russia investigation? we'll ask a member of the judiciary committee, senator richard blumenthal next on "morning joe." >> that's very funny, by the way.

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now to carol lee. carol, you're part of an nbc team, new reporting this morning on the russia investigation. the report says the president's legalpresident's legal team is discussing a range of potential options in anticipation that special counsel robert mueller will ask to interview president trump. tell us more about that? >> so, what we've learned is that president trump's lawyers have begun discussing with robert mueller's team about a possible interview with president trump. so they're talking about a number of things. what would the format be? what would -- would robert mueller do the interview it? how long would it last? things like that. and we also know the president's legal team has had its own internal discussions about what the format would be and it really would like to -- it seems -- avoid a sit-down interview face to face between

the president and whether it's robert mueller or members of his team. they're floating things like a written questionnaire, submitting a signed affidavit saying he's innocent of what anything that the mueller's team wanted to ask him about. the question is whether mueller's team will go for something like that. >> no. >> and it seems like in talking to some experts that he's very unlikely to do that for all the reasons that you and i and other reporters want to talk to someone in person. you need to be able to ask followups and read their body language and understand and get information and sort of -- something you couldn't get from necessarily a written questionnaire. >> do we know the time frame for the president going before bob mueller? >> we don't. but his legal team suggests this is part of the moving the investigation along. i think it all depends on where mueller is in the investigation

specifically on whether there was some sort of obstruction of justice or whether the president is needed in terms of other aspects of the investigation and other individuals that are under scrutiny. we don't know the exact timing but the president's legal team certainly feels this is like moving it along, that it means things are proceeding. >> carol lee, thank you so much. nbc news will have more on this throughout the day. >> with us we have richard blumenthal of the great and chilly state of connecticut. senator, i must say as somebody that's talked about the institutions holding themselves up very well, the first year, it seems that the second year has started, unfortunately, with a series of troubling challenges.

perhaps they're just testing the water on an independent justice department. you've got the president saying that he wants roy cohen in there. you have republicans in the senate actually finally sending forth a criminal recommendation, and referral, and it's for a guy who actually is reporting wrong doing of the white house. where are we in the beginning days of 2018? >> well, here's where we are in terms of upholding the rule of law. the special counsel is proceeding methodically and will interview the president face to face is my prediction. remember that we've had two convictions, two indictments. the indictments will result in trials, and those trials will be r

additional facts as will the additi additional charges. that's part of upholding the rule of law. >> we should expect additional indictments soon? >> almost certainly in my view there will be additional convictions as well as indictments. but on the judiciary committee, i'm disappointed this first action by the republican majority is aimed at someone who has reported wrong doing, christopher steel, rather than committed it. it's based on information that the fbi and the department of justice actually provided to the committee. it's not new information generated by the committee. and so i think it seems more designed to deflect from the investigation that we should be conducting into collusion by the trump campaign with russian medaling, and the obstruction of

justice. steele should be before the committee for an interview, perhaps, but i have read simpson's interview with the committee and donald trump junior's interview with the committee, i can tell you the profound and pressing questions are raised by donald trump junior's. the reason i'm hoping we'll call him for a witness, and that the committee will release simpson's testimony. that's what we're calling for. >> on donald trump junior, despite the apologies from steve bannon, mike, i suspect there's a reason why steve bannon said donald trump junior will be cracked like an egg, and a reason why people close to this investigation have for some time said watch what happens to don junior. >> it's inevitable something was going to happen to don junior. he'll be called back to testify further. that raises the question of the

threat to the special prosecuter himself to that office. where would you put the risk today of the president trying to dismiss bob mueller? >> in the same week, mike, as the wolff book came out there was an extraordinary, excellent report from the new york times about the president sending his white house counsel to stop jeff sessions from recusing himself. >> is that obstruction? does that play -- as a prosecuter, would you look at that and say, well, considering that he also lied about the russian meeting on air force one, considering that he also knew that his national security adviser had committed a crime against the fbi and then went to the fbi and tried to get a loyalty oath and didn't pressure them not to investigate, to drop the investigation, where they knew charges were coming and then the president is now -- we're finding out, pressuring the white house counsel who doesn't work for the president.

he works for us, to go to the attorney general of the united states and pressure him to not recuse himself? is that obstruction of justice? >> you have just given in mini form, part of a closing argument in an obstruction of justice case. >> how about the president himself admitting that he fired comey to kill the investigation? >> that is very definitely evidence of corrupt intent which is a key element of obstruction of justice, and i think to answer mike's very, very pertinent question, as this investigation comes closer to the oval office, as donald trump himself sees the tightening -- >> i have to ask this question. nixon was an unindicted co-conspirator. we have people going around every day saying you can't indict the president of the united states. can you? >> that's an open legal question. >> exactly. it's not as closed as everybody

claims, is it? you can -- you can certainly indict a president, and then the supreme court can make the final decision. right? >> that is probably the way it would arise if there were an indictment to the president, but certainly there could be indictments of people around the president and that's the most likely focus right now for bob mueller, and i think that the combination of evidence, some of it you've just recited, the air force one statement and the president's role in concocting and obviously false and misleading version of events that caused one of his legal spokeman to resign because he didn't want to be part of it as well as the directing of his counsel, and you're right. he works for the presidency, for us, not for the president, to stop sessions from recusing hymn. i think all of it is building

mounting evidence. there's now a credible case of obstruction of justice. >> thank you, senator. the next hour of "morning joe" starts right now. >> statements like the one mr. wolff made about how we all think about the president is ridiculous on their face. >> was he unstable when he passed the tax reform? >> those statements are absurd, chris. i mean, just pure fantasy. >> the media made similar claims about ronald reagan and george bush. >> now we have people wanting to criticize about trying to judge someone's intelligence. >> a man who was a political genius. >> i don't think he's crazy. i think he's had a very successful 2017. >> woo hoo, i'm a college man. i won't need my high school diploma anymore. i am so smart. i am so smart. i am so smart.

s-m-r-t. >> it's the homer simpson of the presidency. >> that's an insult to homer simpson. >> welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, january 8th. can you believe it? it's a big night for you. >> big night. >> are you going to stay up and watch? >> of course i am. alabama and georgia. right now we have mike barnicle, elise jordan, richard haas, jerry peterson, and robert costa and john meacham. john meacham says he's connecting dots from the between fifth amendment and what really happened in eastern massachusetts at the end of the

18th century. so i want to followup on what senator blumenthal said. >> open question about the indictment? >> it is an open question about the indictment, and also the people that we were running, showing those clips, talking about how stable the president of the united states was, the remarkable thing is that a lot of those same people called the president a cook, rand paul suggested that he was mentally unfit during the campaign. they all say these things about how crazed and mentally unfit and say things even off the record, and now they're turning around and talking about what a bright guy he is. >> republican agenda. can we push the republican agenda through without -- while we ignore the elephant in the room? i still am struck by senator blumenthal and the plural use of

convictions and indictments. >> right. >> plural. >> that are coming. >> yeah. it certainly looks -- >> that are coming. >> it certainly looks like they'd be coming. bob costa, you've certainly been reporting on this white house from the very beginning, and you've certainly heard the concerns around the president and whether the president's fit to be actually in the office from republicans and people that work around him. i just wonder what your take is on the wolf book and how it plays into this much bigger debate about the president's fitness and what type of white house he's running. >> with regard to the russia probe and how it plays into the wolf book, you have to think about how the president has repeatedly said there's no collusion, but inside of the white house and around the president's inner circle, collusion really isn't the topic of the day in their conversations. it's about their vulnerability if any on the question of

obstruction of justice. does the president's tone, does his way of communicating privately about the russia probe, has that ever become a question of on strubstruction o justice? that's the big question mark around the president. where does this go? i'm not going to speculate about indictments. nobody knows where bob mueller is going to take this investigation. we know it has a sweeping -- it is a sweeping probe. >> and jeremy peters, something that came out was bannon's discussion with several people after the president lied in the statement trying to explain away don junior's meeting with the russians, and all the people that involved themselves and got ensnarled in that have certainly made themselves targets and certainly if not targets of indictment for an obstruction charge, then certainly witnesses that will probably have to testify against the president or

face impossible obstruction charge themselves. >> that's right. that's why this hit so close to home. bannon's don junior comments were the ones that sent the president into the biggest rage here. and we've heard aides, especially bannon criticize jarod and ivanka. the president views them differently. they're kind of in a different sphere here. they're in the white house. they're in the political realm. the presidency has don junior has someone separate in the private sector who shouldn't be dragged into this, and you couple that with the extreme sensitivity to the president of this russia investigation, and that's why you have this explosion here, and why the montage you played at the beginning with the calling all cards from the white house where they wanted everybody they could get on television defending the president and essentially executing politically speaking,

steve bannon on national television, staying to the conservative movement and the republican party, this man is dead to us, and that was really striking. and that just shows you how seriously, how rattled the white house is by these allegations. not just about russia but about the president's stability and his fitness for office. >> and john meacham, we talk about so many different things every day. we talk about north korea. we talk about the economy. we talk about tax bills. we talk about daca. we talk about tweets. but we were saying inbetween the breaks, it's often the thing that's right in front of our face that historians look at and dig into the deepest, that we feel like we can't even address actively, not just us but everybody in the media. and that's something ripped open by this wolff book again, and that is the fact that most people that work for the 45th president of the united states

do not believe he is fit for the office, and many do not believe that he has the mental capability to continue to govern. >> yeah. the constitutional tragedy here or the political tragedy is it will require an extraordinarily dangerous hour and a genuine crisis for there to be any step to remedy that. leave aside impeachment which is obviously even more of an inherently political process. there's been a lot of talk about the 25th amendment, and this is for mika or the rebellion file. section 4 of the 25th amendment is the critical element. this isn't about if a president is about to undergo surgery and

you transfer power. this is about whether the vice president and a majority of the cabinet believes the president is unable to discharge the duties of the office. they are then to transmit a letter to the speaker of the house, the president protem of the president saying that. the president can take it back. this is like a tennis match. if the president and the majority of the cabinet believe that they were right, they have four days to get it back again, and then the president removed from office temporarily, has appeal to the congress. there's a two-thirds vote of each house to try to figure it out. it's a kind of nerd porn for wonks. i acknowledge, but -- >> that's pretty good. >> but the fact that we're talking about it and the fact that michael wolff said to chuck todd yesterday that this is an

issue in the west wing every day, i think everybody should take a few minutes and look at the 25th amendment today and see what some of the scenarios are if, in fact, this reporting is true, and if, in fact, this reporting intersects with a military crisis, extraordinary domestic crisis. it would require that kind of moment, that kind of tension to bring this improbable into the realm of the probable. >> john, the fact that the president talked about his mental stability this past weekend. the fact that steve bannon talked about it not only in interviews with michael wolff, but steve bannon talked about the 25th amendment when he was still working for the president constantly trying to figure out whether he would survive a 25th amendment vote. and when we talk about what's at stake, i've been reading "the gathering storm" and there is a line in there where churchill

talks about the two vital years that were lost because of woodrow wilson's incapacity which stopped wilson from being able to keep the united states engaged, to really fight hard to get us in the league of nations, to continue pushing, to keep us involved in the affairs of europe after world war i. so the rise of hitler wouldn't follow. and i just keep thinking about those two vital years that were lost, that church hill talks about, and the historic implications of that. i'm wondering if there are any patriots in the republican party willing to step forward worried about the next two or three vital years and at least force this president to get an exam, not just a physical but also -- >> a neuro psych. >> yeah. so see if all of the experts and

all the psychiatrists who fear that he is exhibiting signs of a failing mental state. >> and many have weighed in. >> i know. and i'm just wondering whether the republicans in congress and whether people around him can say, mr. president, why don't you just prove your critics wrong? why don't you get an independent evaluation? >> you know who first suggested that? harry truman, not in this particular case, obviously, but in the 1950s, one of the reasons for the 25th amendment is both wilson's stroke, as you say, basically from october 1919 until he left office in march of '21, franklin roosevelt's evident illness which wasn't talked about in realtime. he still won but died at a moment in world history.

and then president eisenhower had a stroke and a heart attack. he sat down and wrote a letter to his vice president saying here's what we're going to do. if i'm incapacitated for a period of time, you step in, but when, and this was the rub, but when i decide i am back in form, i'll take it back. that's the question. what if a president shouldn't be the judge of that case? and so people later pushed the amendment in order to have a mechanism where the short of impeachment, where if the people closest to the president believed he was not able to do this, not able to discharge the duty, then there's a process, and truman in the 50s in the middle of the eisenhower health

crisis proposed it to be a panel of doctors. the fact that there's a history and debates to read, i think it's really interesting. and i think just sort of a geeky point here of something new -- >> they all are. go ahead. >> -- it's remarkable. i think the middle of the 60 we had some constitutional framers who foresaw a moment where possibly a presidential inability -- a presidential disability would actually be disabling. and i think that we have a mechanism. >> mike barnicle, i would love to have a followup question with john meacham to ask what happened in the mid 60s that led many to move for the passing of the fifth amendment, but unfortunately we only have two hours and 50 minutes left. i'm going to let you go to richard haas for the next question. >> that was great.

>> the 25th amendment as professor meacham was outlining it. stability and competence. there's a larger world out there, and despite what's going on, there's a larger world that is essentially operating without the existence of a real state department, and without the input of a president that the world still looks to for global leadership. what's the story? >> that is the story. look, also 25th amendment has strong procedural hurdles for good reason. the pace of a pcrisis is going o outpace the 25th amendment particularly if it's a gray area. it's one thing if a president has a stroke, but this situation is more gray. the idea that the 25th amendment is going to solve this problem, i think is unlikely. you make the larger point. while we're sorting this out and dealing with all of the craziness of our dysfunctional

politics, the world is not calling a time-out. you have the pace of events from north korea to pakistan to people in the street in iran to the failed state that's venezuela, you add it up. the world is not going to give us time to sort ourselves out. >> robert, richard was making a strong point about how we might be talking about a salacious book that was published last week and about debating the president's mental state, but then there are so many crises happening right now, the ongoing debacle with north korea, but also the revolution in iran. how focussed has the white house and has president trump been on the ongoing revolution in iran over the past week sin he got back to washington? >> the state department is certainly focussed on it. but the administration has a choice to make. how are they going to handle the iran deal moving forward? is the president going to reinstall some kind of sanctions or walk away from the deal? these are open questions right

now. >> my god. all right. >> it would be a disaster, i would say, if we basically walked away from the iran deal in the middle of what's going on in the streets. that would be a scenario where suddenly we would make ourselves the issue rather than the repression of the regime. >> quick question. the fuse gets shorter in one or another global hot spots over the next couple of months. who leads? >> i think we're at a moment of history, there's no serious alternative to the united states. the europeans don't have the capacity or mind set. china will be cautious because they care about domestic economic stability. if we're not prepared to lead, nobody leads. that's a dangerous world. >> it's a mistake we keep making. people say they're embarrassed to be americans when they go overseas, talk about lack of leadership. economically we're doing better than most everybody else, as you know, and also right now angela merkel still can't form a government. great britain is lost.

you talk to people in great britain. they'll tell you that we actually have it better than them because we only have one man who is dysfunctional. their entire system doesn't work anymore. >> but they're not debating the mental state of their commander in chief. it's such a distraction from having government work and from actually having a strategy. >> yes, but then again, they do have boris johnson. they're always debating his mental stability. robert costa, what are you working on this sfwheek. >> you look at the republican party coming back to washington, and as much as some people around the president are talking about fitness for office, there is an image at camp david of leader mcconnell and speaker ryan standing with the president because they still believe in 2018 they can maybe get social spending done. the big choice the administration has to make is will they push for a physical wall in order to get a deal on the dreamers, the thousands of

unundocumented immigrants or not? can they make a concession to the democrats or must it be a concrete wall? >> interesting. thank you all. richard, "a world in disarray" is now out in paperback. and later this morning we'll be booking in the kitchen with richard. we go live to the white house for the nbc exclusive this morning on the russia investigation. how president trump's legal team is trying to figure out how they're going to handle a potential call from bob mueller. >> could be awkward. we'll be right back.

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joining us from the white house is kristen welker. she's the lead reporter on the report about trump's legal team preparing for the possibility that special counsel robert

mueller may ask to interview trump. what are you hearing? >> hi, there. we spoke to three sources familiar with the matter who tell us that these conversations between the president's legal team and federal investigators are preliminary and ongoing. and they include a range of options. like what would the time of a potential interview be? what would the duration of a potential interview be? what would the legal parameters be for interviewing the president, and then a few options that would actually bypass an interview with the president altogether including offering written responses to questions as well as possibly submitting an affidavit. there are still a lot of details to be worked through, and again, these conversations are preliminary. over the weekend president trump was at camp david meeting with his top officials and some cabinet members. he was asked directly if he would in fact appear before special counsel robert mueller in person if he was asked to do so.

he said yeah, and then quickly tried to pivot the conversation back to the fact that he says there was no collusion. it's not entirely clear if that answer yeah was an acknowledgment of the question, or a very firm response that yes, in fact, he would agree to appear before mueller if asked. now, of course this adds to the mounting russia probe that continues to loom over this white house, and this is the latest twist that is shedding light on where this is all heading. >> my goodness, nbc's kristen welker, thank you very much. we'll be back in touch with you. >> richard, before you go, we obviously have hot spots just brewing in iran, pakistan, and north korea. three of the most dangerous spots for the united states in the globe. what worries you the most right now? what should americans be focussed on this morning? >> iran, obviously, given the people in the street, i think what we're seeing is probably the regime asserting itself. they have a big long term

problem, regaining control over the society. it's not clear they're going to have a chance. north korea, the talks are starting tomorrow between south and north korea. the danger is we're not at the table. so what happens if south korea has a different agenda than we do? we're most concerned about north korea's nuclear weapons and their ability to put them on missiles that could reach us. south korea is most concerned about stability on the pence louisia -- peninsula. pakistan, people don't look at them. it has the world's fastest growing nuclear arsenal and most of the world's terrorists. it provides a sanctuary for the ta taliban who are killing american forces in afghanistan. we're talking about cutting off aid. will that get us what we want? could pakistan move closer to china? >> that's the reason they're never gone all in for the united states. they always fear that we're going to leave. just like we did a deal for

fighters with them and didn't liver the fighters. why does pakistan want to risk the future of their government in fighting these extremist forces when they've seen the united states may get bored or have a new election and disappear the next day. >> and with it the history, they hedge their bets. pakistan is not an ally or partner. this is the country we should have a transactional relationship with, and we'll say we'll give you this support if you do x or stop doing y. this ought to be the made to order relationship for donald trump. we shouldn't treat them like an ally. >> richard haas, thank you so much. the book is "a world in disarray" out in paperback. >> that's exciting. >> up next, he's the author of the book the president does not want you to read. michael wolff is up next on

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>> i never interviewed with him in the white house at all. he was never in the oval office. we didn't have an interview. and i did a quick interview with him a long time ago having to do with an article, but i don't know this man.

i guess sloppy steve brought him into the white house quite a bit. that's why sloppy steve is now looking for a job. >> wow. joining us now, the author of "fire and fury inside the trump white house" michael wolff. >> michael wolff, donald trump says he doesn't know you. true or false? >> false. in fact, i've known him since the 90s. when i was at new york magazine, i was one of the people he used to call up to complain about something that db actually, mostly it was to complain about something that had not been said, why he had not been in an article. >> right. he's known you for 20 years? >> totally. and when i saw him in the -- in june, 2016, so i walk into, first i was in his house in beverly hills. it was like oh, my god, michael wolff, they really send in the big guns. blah blah, flattery, flattery, flattery, and then i saw him in

the white house all the time. >> and after -- >> maybe he truly doesn't remember. >> you actually -- you go after donald trump in that hollywood reporter piece, but the cover, he loves the cover. >> right. it was a fairly hard piece, if not devastating. he didn't know what brexit was two weeks before the brexit vote. didn't matter. good cover. >> you like the sunglasses? >> so also this suggestion that you didn't have access to the white house which some people said before. one of the things that i could never really understand when you came and actually talked to me, i had no idea why they gave you access in the white house, because you have written tough books, tough profiles on one new yorker after another. they could have called rupert murdoch at any point, and he would have said kick him out.

they were talking to murdoch every day. what i never understood is why did they let you just float around the white house in the first place? >> did they? >> yeah, uneffectively, total disorganization, number one. number two this idea of a book. i would say i'm doing a book. they would say oh, a book. they would say when does this book come out. i would say sometime next year, and they would say oh, jeez, and for this white house that lives minute by minute, next year was an eternity away. and then the other thing is the white house, this white house is so factionalized. if steve bannon was seeing me, that meant that kushner had to see me. so it was essentially a daily act of triangulation. >> give me the time when you

were in the white house floating. >> from shortly after the inauguration right up until steve bannon gets thrown out. >> so you were in the good pit. when you first got in there, bannon and kushner were allies? >> yes, but that literally lasted days. that's one of the weird things. kushner was going around saying what happened? we were so close. and then i remember it was katie walsh, the deputy chief of staff who told me, she said to kushner, you don't believe anything, you're die mopposed t everything. how do you think you would have gotten along? >> who was the original contact for you to get you into the white house? >> beyond trump himself who was

completely sure, sure, i mean, it seemed like he didn't care that much. sure, that's fine, but then it was bannon and kellyanne conway. >> and you have hours and hours of people on tape? >> i do. yes. i hesitate. there's suddenly will you release the tapes? >> did you tell them they were being taped? >> of course, yeah. i mean, it was right on the table. >> this is not a facetious question now, and i'm sure you won't take it as such given what's in the book. the compelling narrative of this book, you can't put it down the narrative is so compelling. was steve bannon at any point drunk during your conversations with him? >> not to my knowledge, and in at least one instance when offered a drink, he pushed it away. >> so the question, the next

question is why did he say everything that he said? i was talking to peggy newnan. i don't know if you remember the early years of the reagan administration when david stockman had a tape reporter put in front of him and basically just undercut every economic argument ronald reagan made and people said why did he do? why did he do it? why did steve bannon do this, and do you suspect his impulses were the same? he wanted to let the world know -- >> i think the lunacy -- >> yes, i think two things. maybe three things. steve bannon whether you agree with him or not went into this white house with a very particular agenda. and i think that he found that it was extremely hard to implement the agenda, and that

it probably wasn't going to be implemented. the opposite as trump veered more toward mitch mcconnell, that was absolutely away from steve bannon. then i think steve bannon was in this, and was kind of horrified by the fact that this white house was being run by donald trump's family. people who were not experienced, who -- and who were functionally democrats, and then -- >> speaking of family, i have to say as a side note, i found it fascinating it was ann coulter, the voice of reason. it was ann coulter that said to donald, to the president, you can't hire your family, donald. you can't hire your family. >> you know, you can remove the politics from this, and i went into this literally with no political agenda, and there's

not politics per se in this book. politics don't matter. everybody looks at trump the same. >> the same. >> and they see this is an abhorrent moment. >> we've been saying on the show daily, and it's not just about donald trump. as i said earlier, the morning, we'd always have the most senior democratic senators say of barack obama in 2009, 2010, he doesn't know what he's doing, but they wouldn't say it on the record. for the past year, we've had people around donald trump saying he's not mentally fit to be president. and there is such a reluctance, and i'm not knocking "the washington post." they're being conservative with the small c. i've written twice in my column a quote about one of people closest to donald trump during the campaign saying he's got early stage of dementia. he repeats the same stories over and over again.

his father had it. and it's getting worse, and not a single person who works for him doesn't know it. he didn't think he was going to win. twice "the washington post" would not let me put that in my column. i salute them for having a high bar, but we're at this moment, and it's -- >> aren't we? >> and until your book came out, this was something we were not allowed to speak about. >> now, okay. the we, it's understanding the we. we're still in the same structure. remember, we began this whole -- when trump was elected president with the media saying we don't want to normalize this guy. well, in fact, they did normalize him, and they normalized this -- these hand grenade stories every day so you forgot what happened the other day, and they normalized the entire structure of how you report on the president. which is that you can't say what

you know or all that you know, because you have to go back the next day. so i'm the only one -- not the only one -- i am in the position of being the guy who didn't have to say anything. kept my mouth shut for the better part of a year, and listen, i was just the black hole. just listening to everything. and then i could say it because i'm not going back. >> by the way, which is important to say. if you're maggie haberman at the times -- >> who does a great job, but she has to go back. >> what makes her a great reporter is she has to balance two competing interests. she's got to tell the truth about the trump white house, but she's got to go back the next day. bob costa, same thing. has to tell the truth about the white house but has to go back the next day. >> i'm getting some incoming from the daily journalists who cover this, because they see this in a daily journalism

context instead of seeing this as a book. a book is an entirely different thing. i am telling a story. i am pulling this together. i am trying to -- i am trying to put the reader right where i was on the couch in the west wing. >> the criticism of michael's book, though is that he doesn't get everything exactly right. that's what happens when you interview a thousand different people and everybody comes from their own version. there are things people said to you about us and our show, not accurate, but i certainly know when i read it, i know which person you were talking to in the white house. it's a completely -- it's not a front page story for the new york times or "the washington post." it's a much bigger picture. >> we'll talk about whether that are arm his critics to michael wol wolff's book. we'll take a quick break and then we'll continue this conversation.

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oh, god. no. i can't even put this mental picture in my head. >> michael wolff is back. >> i have a question. you stand by. you just back off. okay? we were talking before the break about some inaccuracies in the book. but not -- like, were you first of all in a rush to get this to print for a lot of reasons? >> well, yeah. this book was reported and written in less than a year. >> okay. >> remember, this history is moving pretty fast. >> so your kind of critics will have tsome material to work wit. there's some misspellings. i'll speak to the part where we're characterized. there was a scene where ivanka wanted to talk to donald about women. he kept saying what? what? what? you say in the book ivanka shouted at him, it was me, i said donald, women, and i had to make an hourglass to show him

women. that was the only way he could understand the word woman. so there's inaccuracies like that, that i guess do you worry? >> i'm not sure which point was that? that w >> that was at the lunch at the white house. >> the bigger point is your critics run with these little specific things but getting a part of a story wrong here or getting something else -- >> sometimes you're dependent on your sources there. and sometimes your sources -- now, i don't want to say who my source was in that particular thing, except that -- >> sometimes the sources get it a little off. >> okay. >> and by the way, it's -- >> but the spirit of it is completely true. >> so a lot of this stuff, i was not -- and i don't represent myself as being there. you're dependent on the people who were there on their memories. you have to sort their agenda. it's a fairly complicated

undertaking which, you know, i mean, that's the job. >> yeah. >> and by the way, and again, just again, to explain this sort of book and then let's move forward. bob woodward's been doing it for years where you talk to 200 people that work in the white house or around a white house, and everybody is trying to spin woodward and everybody is trying to spin the version of events, and you get a bigger picture of what's going on. >> this is the trump i know. >> and what's the bigger picture out of "fire and fury? what's the big idea? >> i think the big idea is that these people -- all white houses are fraught places. but they're a whole. people who work for presidents, support a president, they're on his side, they're on his team. they may not like the other people in the white house, but it's a relatively coherent view at the end of the day. >> for the most part, people that work for barack obama loved barack obama. >> yeah.

>> people who worked for george w. bush, you can talk to them today, and at time they'll tear up talking about what a good man he was. bill clinton, the same thing. >> carter. >> completely opposite here. completely opposite. >> everybody in this white house, and i keep saying this 100% because it is 100% of the people closest to the president to donald trump believe that there is something wrong here. something fundamentally wrong, something that scares them. smae as a matter of fact, if there's any reason they stay in the white house now, it's because they're scared and they believe they have a responsibility to the american people. >> why can't anyone say you may not tweet? what was john kelly's role supposed to be? what did it turn out to be, if that's a legitimate question? >> i think john kelly's role was -- there was an interesting

thing that happened i think on saturday morning when all that tweeting was starting. a reporter asked kelly if he knew about -- what do you think of the tweets and he said i didn't see them. that's absolutely not true. everybody sees the president's tweets. the whole white house goes into a spasm when he tweets, but john kelly is saying like everybody says, i have to look away. i have to -- i have to somehow rationalize, how do i do this? i shut my eyes? >> i remember calling reince priebus early -- i wake up early every morning, even on the weekends, and one early saturday morning i was going to get coffee, probably for mika, and his tweet about barack obama that obama had tapped trump towers. it came across, and i immediately called reince.

i said reince, what the hell is going on? he said if i knew, i would tell you. he said i'm scrambling. and that's basically the story whoever is chief of staff is. >> this is no solution. >> this is not functional. >> completely and reince priebus it's a good -- there's a good man. i mean, you know a guy trying to do his job against insu insurmountable odds. a man who feels, well, as i have described how everyone feels. >> you use the word a few moments ago, few minutes ago, unnerving in terms of the composition of the white house and what's going on. if you read the book, the narrative within the book. there are many things that i think we can agree a lot of people have heard anecdotedly prior to the publication.

there's a lot of stuff brand new and highly troubling to read. white house staff itself. support staff, important people in terms of who they support. i came away with the impression that a number of them, all of them, behave in an odd way like hostages. like inmates. like people you know, trying to be released. trying to get away, but they kn can't get away. >> one of the eerie things. i'm sitting on that couch and there's sort of, you know, the appointments come up and somebody's assistant will come out and get you to bring you back and you're -- i know all of these assistants at this point and you would say, how is it going. and they would never, ever respond. it was kind of like, oh. okay. >> it's mika and i both when we were reading the book for the

first time, and we saw that it was poor hope hick's job to go in and summarize what we said for three hours and both just sat there and like oh, my god. poor, poor woman. worst job in the world. >> i would quit. >> she was always in a frenzy of what do i say? how do i do this? who do i talk to. that's, remember, her job is to stand. this book donald trump as we've seen is not happy with this book. he doesn't know the most of what's in it, he doesn't know because it hasn't been on television yet. and. >> he doesn't read. >> he doesn't read. >> and nobody has told him because nobody wants to tell him. >> the post literate president. >> let's talk about steve bannon. >> can i read a statement. >> sure. >> in a statement yesterday, steve bannon reframed his

comments about donald trump j jr.'s meeting with russians in trump tower, which he originally called treasonous and unpatriotic. stating donald trump jr. is pat yacht and good man. my comments were aimed at pal manafort. seasoned campaign professional with knowledge of how the russians operate. he should have known. they are duplicitous, k cunningd not our friends. to reiterate. comments were not made at don junior. no collusion and investigation is a witch hunt. i regret my delay in responding to don junior has diverted attention from the historical accomplishments in first year of presidency. >> what's so fascinating about the bannon statement tole me is the fact don junior's name comes up again, and, again. one thing steve bannon has learned since this book came out. don junior is a super star among the a lot right base.

>> listen, i like steve. i'm grateful for the time he gave me. the insights he gave me and i don't want to put him in more hot water than he is already in, but. >> that statement is false. >> it was not directed at manafo manafort. it was directed directly at don junior. >> also, the quote. let's follow up with a quote. that he said to you that don junior was going to be cracked open like an egg on national television by manafort. >> by mueller. >> yes. >> and what was the context of that? >> that the investigation. he believes there was -- that there was obstruction here. these guys are he believes don junior had no idea what he was doing. the effect was. this is in the book. he spells out exactly why don

junior had this meeting. that it was not even so much to get dirt on hillary clinton, but it was because in the context of the campaign, they wanted to get rid of cory ey lewandowski. and he had to do something to show his father he had the stuff. >> yes. >> one moment where bannon is screaming at several people that your book really highlights, is going to be a moment that may be sga significant in the mueller chase is the president putting together a falls statement about don junior's meeting with the russians. steve bannon and i think correctly understood what nobody else around the president did at that moment which is they all put themselves in legal jeopardy. >> absolutely. he went around yelling at people who had been in this room.

steven miller he reamed him because he had been in -- he just went into these rooms. mike pence he said he couldn't believe it. just in meetings where he should not be. steve bannon sort of set this up. i will not go into meetings where this is being discussed. >> last question, is donald trump fit to be president. >> no. >> from everything you've seen. >> no. >> why not. >> it's essentially what the story of the book is, but in brief because he's only interested in not only is he only interested in just himself. he's just interested in his immediate gratification in this moment. there is nothing beyond that. >> temperamentally aside, is he mentally fit to be president of the united states based on everything that you've heard from people who work with him day in and day out. >> when you're talking about them and you're like i'm concerned about this person. every time you speak to him, you

think this is a wing nut. there is something really alarming in ways that you cannot even begin to describe it's like your riveted to the seat. >> have you noticed a deterioration through the years. we've all known trump over the past ten years. people every time we say it's getting worse. we say he's always been a horrible human being, but have you noticed the deterioration that his ghost writer for all of the deal said this weekend he's noticed and other friends have noticed. in the past yuwhen i used to sp it. it thought he was a bragger e and often quite funny, but never did i think oh, there's some this is peculiar in other worldly ways. now that is clearly true.

the repetitions. the repetitions are you don't know what to do. you're in the middle of this i think i should be doing something. calling somebody. >> that's the squeeze of the office. the incredible responsibility, the unbelievable in coming. it takes a toll on the body and mind. and if the mind is already in a place that has extreme qualities to it. it may have worked in his comfortable office for 40 years in new york city with his friends all around him. and his team, but now he's in the white house. >> yes >> and the squeeze is on his brain. >> there's a certain level. in the beginning when i would have this discussion with people. there was a certain kind of trying to rationalize. he didn't get enough sleep. the whole range of circumstance things. towards the ends. people would say this is -- we don't know what to do about this. >> the repetitions are getting

worse during the campaign. the person that told me everybody around him knew he was predementia. talked about he would repeat the same stories. i had people who mika and i knew for ten years who wanted to work for him in high positions and they say how do you talk to him i. how do you communicate with him. if you're in there for an hour, he's going to remeet the same stories over and over again. you look for a break and get your chance in, but now, you've said, and i've heard from some others that the repetitions don't come every 30 minutes. now sometimes he tells the same story every ten minutes and you said he didn't recognize people he had known forever at mar-a-lago this year. >> i think there's alarm spreads throughout this story. they said we can't do this. we got to go to go to hannity and he's going to give us the

questions. that was a pretty open secret to say the least. >> kind of looks that way. when you see that. anyhow. we won't go there. the book is fire and fury. inside the trump white house. michael wolff. thank you very much. >> thanks so much. >> great to have you on the show. please come back. we'll see you on the last word with lawrence o'donnell at 10:00. eastern time. right here on msnbc. get some sleep. you're bookending it, aren't you. >> the next hour of morning joe starts right now. i call him little marco. little marco. >> senator marco rubio. >> lying ted cruz. he lies. senator ted cruz, like, dislike, like. >> paul ryan, you know, open borders and amnesty and a lot of other. bad budgets by the way. very bad budgets. >> great speaker paul ryan.

he is a great speaker. he is a great speaker. great job. >> i am disappointed in the attorney general. >> do you standby jeff sessions. >> yes. >> steve has been a friend of mine for a long time. i like steve a lot. >> i guess sloppy steve brought him into the white house quite a bit and it was one of those things. that is why sloppy steve is now looking for a job. >> which is it? i'm confused. >> unbelievable. >> i'd be a wreck in i was in a relationship like that. >> his mental the mental gyrations there. >> they're incredible. >> up and town. >> mental gymnastics. i've heard that word before. >> donald trump has plenty of love hate relationships. so is steve bannon's enough to bring him back into the president's loving circle. >> we will also have with us steven miller. holy moly. >> i could have told you.

>> i don't know if we're supposed to be shocked by that. we saw that last season in the debut season of trump the presidency. >> i already saw that episode. i'm sighing it yesterday saying wait a second. >> one of the principle policy adviser sent on to embarrass himself speaking as jake pointed out to an audience of one. >> it was horrifically embarrassing. >> when you worked at least for other presidents and the state department. we would actually send people that worked for the united states of america on sunday shows to send messages to friends and enemies alike across the globe. now, we send white house sends people out just to kiss up to the president of the united states. and it's their opportunity. >> what's so remarkable is everybody knows that is the only

purpose is jake tapper said. to be bow and scrape and humiliate yourself. in hopes of the president being excited. >> well, the difference was president bush had men and woman working for him who were representing the interest of the united states. and the american people. it was about the american people. wasn't about performing for an audience of one. embarrassingly which is what we got yesterday with steven miller show. >> he's playing to a guy with autocratic tend sis. there you go. >> they said they were just really embarrassed to be americans. it was the first time it was sort of chilling. didn't want to share. where they were from. you know, also with this. >> i have to say something here.

you're not going to like this. people being embarrassed. andrew sullivan, andrew sulli n sullivan. i've got to say when barack obama became president of the united states, i believed that his columns would turn into a cheering section for barack obama. no matter what. and he has somebody told me about a month ago, you've got to start reading andrew sullivan again. every column spot on and important. listen to this. good way to start the week, everybody. andrew sullivan talked about optimism in the age of trump. part of this is because so many indicators in the world are remarkably good right now. he's saying in spite of donald trump. economic growth is now in the developed world including even japan. for the first time in quite a while, in america, we are in a record eighth year, eight year

of economic growth. not first year. eighth year of economic growth. bringing peek employment and finally a bump in earnings. medium income is now the highest in history. medium income highest in history. dow is at 25,000. meds is abolishing most diseases. illegal border crossings in the u.s. have fallen to record lows. if you remember, we were saying every day on this show before donald trump was president of the united states. that the wall was a stupid idea because border crossings were at record lows going out at the end of the obama administration. crime rates are at historic lows and they were when barack obama was president this past year we just saw was new york's lowest since they started taking records.

global conflict continues at century old decline. isis has been destroyed in its own heart land. must say something we were saying was happening more people live in democracy today something we said last week despite of concerns. and they kill fewer people. wars kill fewer people and far more populous world in the last decade see the biggest decline in global poverty ever. the point is that andrew sullivan believes and i believe that we may survive. this trump presidency despite of donald trump. some of the people around are not qualified to be in the white

house. we have to remain individual lent on the rule of law. point that out and reasons to optimistic. >> the fact the president of the united states is not stable. >> he's not. you can say whatever you want to say about him. he's not stable. that said, a lot of good things are going for us not only here, but across the globe. >> also with us this morning. if the university of alabama wins tonight. that will be andrew sullivan. >> i'm so glad you interrupted me for that. >> mike, the kids on the upper west side. think about how thrilled they are. waking up this morning and going oh, my god. fibromyalgialy a national. now you've got alabama,

birmingham. against georgia. whose campus is about an hour from atlanta. this is dixie youth baseball championships that we had going up. mississippi would play like. >> no two teams capture the imagination of the upper manhattan. more so than alabama and georgia. captivating. to your larger point about andrew sullivan's piece. once you get away from what we do for a living. what everybody in our industry does for a living. which verges on rightfully so obsession with the collapse of the trump administration. and the questions about the president's stability, this is an enormously optimistic country. every day. people get up and go to work and raise families and pay taxes with a sense of optimism and relief. >> not to get too off base here. last night oprah did that. gave a speech that gave people hope and reminded people what is so great about this country and the strides that this country is

made and how we still have so much to be hopeful for. for that, i am grateful that she was given that award. >> we've had presidents who i've disagreed with. . i had problems with bill clinton. we could go back 50 years and find the weaknesses and the bad policies of this president or that president, but we have had a half century of presidents. we've had over 200 years of presidents for the most part who have put the good of america and put the good of the people first. >> yes. >> and these men who are being booed, john mccain by republicans at california gop gatheri gathering, george w. bush and george h.w. bush. these men are too good for the people who even boo them. and donald trump is just not in

that league because he puts himself first. we are seeing at the end of 50 years, the results of the post war that is why donald trump wants to deconstruct and that is what america must fight against. >> hold together. >> also with us this morning, national political reporter for axios. jonathan swan. "new york times" reporter jeremy peters. let's get this in. the trump administration spent much of the weekend fighting back against michael wolff's book with a full on offensive on the sunday shows. and tweets by the president. in a string of early morning tweets on saturday, the president defended his mental fitness chaming now that russian collusion has proven tow be a total hex on the american public the democrats and lap dogs.

fake news mainstream media are taking out the old ronald reagan play book and screaming mental stability and intelligence. he goes on. actually throughout my life my two greatest assets have been menta stability and being like really smart. >> like, you know, like well kind of like. >> its valuely girl. >> >> hope should tell him not to put like in there. >> cooked hillary halls played cards very hard. as everyone knows went down in flames. i went from very successful businessman to top tv star to president of the united states on the first try. i think that would qualify as not smart, but genius. very stable genius at that.

here is the president speaking at camp david restreet. >> this morning you're tweeting about the mental state. why did you feel the need to tweet about that this morning. only because i went to the best colleges or college. i went to a -- i had a situation where i was a very excellent student. came out and made billions and billions of dollars. became one of the top business people. went to television and for ten years was a tremendous success. as you probably have heard. ran for president one time and won. and then i hear this guy that does not know me. doesn't know me at all. did not interview me for three. said he interviewed me for three hours in the white house. didn't exist. in his imagination. >> said no smart guy. >> no. >> in the world. i've never met. it's kind of like war heros.

war heros refused to talk. about why they're war heros. i found for the most part. people who really are smart don't talk about it. that's a guy. i've never. i don't think. i've never met anybody more insecure and being elected president of the united states has actually made him even more insecure, which i just don't get. >> can i point out we've met a lot of people who have made a lot of money and definitely a lot of people in television who are really narcissistic and stupid. i'm not sure why that would be hon his resume. >> what's the correlation here. >> i've got to say at night sometimes and i stair at the ceiling. i stair at the ceiling and i go, why are those dumb people making so much money. >> yes. >> it's incredible.

trotted out the i are smart strategy over the weekend. tell us what was behind that thinking. that response to these accusation s bannon is out ther saying this isn't what i meant to say. and other white house officials deny iing they are concerned abt the president's outbursts. really is in the general idea and michael wolff's back is irrefutable. that's that people around the preside

president's behavior. why else send administration officials out on national television for basically what was meant to be a public execution of a former white house aide. that's what they did. yesterday they sent the cia director. they sent steven miller who was of course notably steve bannon's for the ultimate indignity. saying that the bannon was vindicti vindictive. he had no role in the president's success. that was meant to just why the white house is acting so savagely and mercilessly. >> our panel is staying put. going to continue the conversation straight ahead after the break. shortly after declaring himself a genius, president trump had a little trouble with auto correct in a presidential tweet. explain that ahead on "morning

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welcome back to morning joe. we've been talking about the growing questions surrounding president trump and what the people around him are really saying. >> so jonathan swan. one of the things we tried to do here is let viewers know what's happening behind the scenes that they may not hear on other shows, but like for instance during barack obama's first two years as president, we all had one senior democratic senator after another come to us and basically say he's a rooky. he doesn't no what he's doing. it's embarrassing. always thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. it would serve him well to talk to us. then go out and say barack obama, greatest guy ever. >> well, here. we've seen this weekend, one cabinet member after another go out and say i've never said he's

not a moron or the stupidest person on the face of the earth or not as dumb as a whatever. we've all heard it. we've all heard it from republicans on the hill. we've all heard it from cabinet members. we've all heard it from some of the same people. i can say it who were lying on tv this weekend. they have all said he is like a child. he has no attention span. he doesn't read and he is getting worse, his ability to focus is getting worse. you even look at schedule. the competitive time is spanning out. less time at the office and less time just staring at a tv. we wrote a piece and the michael wolff piece came out. one thing he did controversial in the book is took a lot of off-the-record conversations and put them on the record. for the public who don't really care about the washington inside

game, that was quite revelry. you heard what these people really thought. what we gdid is say look, there are whole scenes that never happened. from my own reporting. there are deeper truths in that book in terms of what people who work for donald trump say about him privately versus what they say about him publically. we said this. we're not going to portray off-the-record conversations, but we can say these things ring true in the book. what rings true is the widespread contempt that a lot of these aides have for the president of the united states. the questioning of his intelligence, kpet tencompetenc experience. all of these things we've heard for the last 12 months as he's taken office and now we're seeing it aired in the book. >> jeremy peters i thought it was very interesting. through the weekend you find someone to say oh, that's not true. as if that's going to discredit the entire book. somebody standing on the -- you know, on the top of a garbage pile in the middle of the astro

dome and found one thing. said things that were factual live correct about us. he said some things that were factually incorrect about this show. >> the bigger points. details in some places may be off. generally speaking, there is not anything that steve bannon or other senior aides are quoted as saying in this book that i have not heard from white house officials, senators, members of congress, people who used to work on the campaign. that is just a fact. now, i think the question is joe, is steve bannon just the only one to get caught here. is he the only one to get busted.

are we 6, 12, 18 months from now going to see a dam break of these similar criticisms of trump. because quite honestly this disloyalty to the president. that's why the allegations are spilling out now. people don't feel loyalty to him. they can't trust when he's going to go off on them. i do wonder. if this is just the beginning and steve bannon is the only one to get caught saying these things that everyone else has been saying. >> it's a great point. no need to wonder. what you're going to find is as we move forward, you're going to find one person after another person after another person that leaves the white house and salvage reputation and career and all have versions of how i

tried to save the republic. destroyed in the midterm elections. >> it's amazing. >> it is. mitch mcconnell and paul ryan. we really have to focus on those two. right now because they're the lead leaders. it's amazing those two can standby this man. after he's insulted them first of all. they know he is doing ir reputabreharm to the country. >> lindsey graham has completely flipped and so mike barnicle. >> for dinner at the white ho e house.

>> and to golf at his exquisitely laid out. >> he has become the preside president -- >> he's. >> i don't know what that means. >> it means everybody push them up. the interesting thing about michael wolff's book to the conversation. is that most of the anecdotal evidence was heard and known by us by others from prior to the inauguration. it's just a constant stream of things you're familiar with because you've been told. it leads to the question that i think a lot of people are asking internally in the white house that i've heard now for the past several days. who is running the country. it comes down to john kelly and gym matt tis. those are the two most important figures in the government. >> they do not control president trump's twitter feed. >> yes >> and we have seen the

horrible destruction that he can we would through social media and his unhinged impulsivity encouraged by this platform. if john kelly has no oversight or no check on that, no one is in charge, but donald trump. >> totally agree. coming up. we had to cut off an interview with donald trump three years ago when he wouldn't answer our questions about policy. jake tapper did a similar thing to steven miller. show you off the rails interview next on "morning joe." at at&t, buy one iphone 8 and get one on us. that's one for you, and one for... your bbf your backup singer. your frenemy your boo your roomie

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self made billionaire who. >> sure he's watching and he's happy you said that. >> no, you can be condescending. >> i'm not being condescending. i'm trying to get to the point steve bannon. >> let me tell you something. you can be as condescending as you want. it's part of your mo. you can have 24/7. >> i have no idea why you're attacking me. my point is, steve bannon.

>> jake, you can have a 24/7. >> helped force the travel ban. >> i'm so glad you brought that up. that is one of the fake news items in the book. >> steven. >> jake. jake. >> the reason why i want to talk. >> the president in the white house. >> the reason why i want to talk about the president's experiences. what i've seen with him traveling to meet dozens of foreign leaders with his incredible work. >> okay. you're not answering the question. i understand. >> you have 24 hours a day. >> steven, you're being -- the i get it. the real experience. >> there's one viewer you care about right now and being a factoid in order to please him. i think i've wasted enough of my viewers time. thank you. in a major reversal. democrats now coming to his defense. what changed. ask the next democratic on the house committee next. >> you just sit there and it was

one thing after another just donald trump self made billionaire he says who inherited hundreds of millions of dollars from real estate empire which is not self made. that's called getting money from your dad. >> by the way, destroyed it and ran up debt. >> went bankrupt. >> several times. >> you know who really is a self made billionaire. oprah. >> agree. >> jonathan swine. >> that was -- i'm glad jake tapper cut it short. i would have cut it short after about the second answer. with his view of suckup to president trump. who wants to hear that? >> so jonathan swine. you have a scoop about the president's work habits, but before that, didn't -- steven miller had to be escorted from the cnn set. >> yes. >> that came out last night.

that was quite something. >> someone is a little unself aware. >> politely asked to leave. then security had to escort him according to a source. that's something. >> quite something. >> talk about this executive tie. the president has more. >> sounds like joe time. >> i would like more executive time. >> you have enough joe time. >> this reminds me, george w. bush had executive time and around lunchtime he would play golf on his skpucomputer for ho and a half. what about donald trump's executive time. it seems to be expands out a bill bit. >> what we reported last night on axios is that the president's schedule has been secretly shrinking over many months.

and there are two schedules, there's the public schedule they released to the media and to the public and then the real schedule. i was shown the real schedule and there has a block of time in the morning from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. labeled executive time. it says it's in the oval office. that's not true. he's actually in the residents watching tv. making phone calls. tweeting. and yes, his first meeting of the day at 11:00 a.m. >> oh, my god. that's incredible. you have president of the united states. world is blowing up and he's in his pjs upstairs tweeting and watching tv until 11. >> i think the staff is making the wrong decision trying to put him away alone and keep him out of daily operations. >> i don't know. >> here's the thing. then he's out to his devices. bring him in and engage him. >> rather he do that than sitting around a cabinet table at 9 in the morning causing

chaos and making everybody go i love you mr. president because you're so beautiful. trump began showing up later. did the intention briefing. ended up settling around 10:30. now it's even later. first meeting of the day is 11:00 a.m. so often -- so jonathan. he works at home. and he only has to walk downstairs and go to his -- >> doesn't have to get dressed. >> to go to his office. 11:00 in the morning before 11:00 is too early for him. >> his staff countered by saying, and it's true.

he doesn't sleep. he's up ungodly hours in the morning. the fact is it's undisciplined and quite scattered time where he's tweeting. making phone calls. you see the effects on twitter. this is not a mystery to anyone in the world for anyone who follows his twitter feed. coming up on morning joe. national reviews. rich lowry joins the conversation. we'll get his reaction to physical and mentals defense of the president's mental fitness. does the package of tax reform negate questions about his ability to serve. that's ahead on morning joe. ♪

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as much as everyone wants to talk about stability. was he unstable when he passed the tax reform. hit back at syria and said no more chemical weapons. was he stable when we put north korea on notice. was he unstable when he said we need to look at iran because this is getting to be a

dangerous situation. >> was he unstable in the primary. with us now, the editor of national review. >> hi, rich. >> hi. >> i saw your alabama heart swell with pride over derek henry's performance on saturday. >> he was a beast. forceful. really unbelievable. >> couple of things. first of all, you send pictures all the time. not all the time, maybe once of your daughter watching morning joe. is she watching it right now. >> yes. sometimes, a two-year-old gets a little out of control. needs a little tv time to settle her down. she actually will sometimes point and say mika. joe. >> hopefully we have a calming influence on her. >> yes, i'm sure. >> you're a big sports fan and college fan. alabama, georgia, how does it stack up. >> i'm not as much of a college football fan as you are, but my

principle is notre dame is always overrated and alabama is never overrated. i would say alabama by four. >> alabama by four. which is by the way. the line. >> there you go. >> going to be interesting. so much to talk about with michael wolf book. you and i had a conversation probably six months ago. where i actually just called and asked you, listen, how were we doing. i know we're offending a lot of republicans and your recommendation was listen, it's doing okay, but said you should really stay away from any questions about mental fitness. said you felt it was personal and out of line. do you still feel that way in light of the wolf book? >> i do. i just think if someone has dementia, you would see it. i don't know him at all. i don't have a lot of insider access to the white house.

seems to me, he's the same guy he's always been. in terms of discussing policy and things, he's always rambling and repetitive. that hunt changed and the aspects of his character and temperament that don't make him well suited for his job in a lot of ways has always been there. >> i think there's an intensity to it. the pressure has caused sort of closing in of stress on him that you see the repetition of stories and obsessions and the anger. everything is kind of heightened from 0-60. >> how do you sort through things. you all had the famous never trump. cover. national review. i remember jack faller giving that to him. big hit with all out of your subscribers. where do you stand a year later.

how do you sport through, let's say, a pretty significant tax cut with a president that preaches moral equivalency for neo nazis. how do you sort through a neil gorsuch nomination with behavior that even neil gorsuch was offended by when he had questioned the independent judiciary. how do you do it? how does national review do it? how do conservatives and republicans do it moving forward. >> identify been wrong about two things with this president. one, i thought we would see really unorthodox policy. and unorthodox approach to the agenda. where as it's been an utterly conventional. energy, deregulation, judges, we really have seen an a plus agenda. >> let's just be clear here. again, idea logically, four

conservatives. this is what conservatives wanted when it came to tax policy, regulatory policy and judges. right. i also think or thought he would do more to moderate behavior early or at least not make character flaws so evidence. he uses twitter to advertise his resentments and vin dickiveness. >> craziness. going back to what you read from the andrew sullivan. had this bizarre disconnect. had poisonous froth of our politics. on one hand because trump stirs the pot all the time. one he can't help himself. two because he actually enjoys it to a certain steextent. when the underlying condition, material condition of the country is quite good, arguably as good as it's been for ten years, no major foreign wars. the economy is growing and been growing for a long time. now growing in a way. >> record lows.

>> and even though he wants to build a wall. the immigration flow has been negative over the past five years. >> right. >> wages better than they've been in 25 years. consumer confidence better than 25 years. and right track, wrong track is 80/20 going the wrong way. >> if she just sat in his pajamas and had executive time and watched as much cable tv he wanted to and throws remote every time he sees something he didn't like and otherwise didn't tweet and showed up and read lines, he would probably have 47% approval rating. i'm not sure everyone will be at 50 in a sustained way for a long time to come. >> i agree. he gets in his way. i think your two surprises are the two main surprises mika and i had knowing this guy for a decade. one, he's a life long democrat. he used to always joke. stop calling me a democrat. i said, you're a democrat. i was sure conservatives were going to be disappointed.

i was shocked by how idea logically he was. he has not moderated a bit. >> i would add a third surprise. if you told me at the beginning of 2018 he would have a fairly warm working relationship with paul ryan and mitch mcconnell and steve bannon would be on the outside as a smoldering rune, i never would have believed that. >> the things that are going well that you all mentioned here. aside from the judicial nominations, gorsuch, what of that list is trump actually responsible for. >> not a lot. >> i think i would argue the point about no major wars. we still have troops in afghanistan. we have troops prosecutes the war against isis and iraq in syria and we have the threat of a nuclear war in north korea.

and it's there's a greater likelihood, i hope not too much of a likelihood. the fact there's even a likelihood is a threat that the world hasn't encountered since the cold war. >> i can't believe i'm going be doing this, but i'm actually going to sound like i'm defending donald trump. >> drawing the out anti-trump. >> exactly. >> there's no doubt the economy has been improving for 7-8 years. there are some things on the margin that make a huge difference to people who were deciding whether they're i hears during the obama administration through business people is there wasn't a single person in the white house that actually understood how you created jobs. now, donald trump may not understand that because he just inherited his money. he is surrounded by people who do understand that and the regulatory reform that has offended a lot of people on the left.

i understand it. the tax cuts that i didn't -- i don't like this form of tax cutting, but the one area you can give donald trump, i think, think, credit for is the increase in not only consumer confidence but in the confidence of businesspeople who say, you know what, and people around the world, you know what, the united states may not be a bad place to invest. >> there's a front page article in "the new york times" last week making exactly this point that business leaders are just relieved they know there's going to be no additional regulation. whatever else happens. and that has led to a surge of confidence. what's happening is we are now getting a level of growth or sustained growth where actually labor markets are getting tighter in places around the country and it's leading to wage increases. >> right. >> if i could tell donald trump one thing in case he is doing executive time right now and watching this program. >> he is. >> don't talk so much about the stock market, talk about wages. that goes more to the interest of the voters.

>> stay with us. we're going to continue this conversation. we're so happy to have you on this show. up next, president trump postpones his fake news awards due to lack of interest. he'll be attending tonight's championship game in atlanta. >> and paul finebaum is going to be here. regularly with our ameriprise advisor. we plan for everything from retirement to college savings. giving us the ability to add on for an important member of our family. welcome home mom. with the right financial advisor, life can be brilliant.

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with us now, college analyst paul finebaum. i was always shocked, people would say, oh, paul finebaum, you've known him for a while? yes, i remember reading him going how is this guy still alive? because you would write things about alabama in the '80s and auburn in the '80s. you were pretty tough and fierce. >> let's go. >> so be tough and fierce on this question. last week when alabama was playing clemson, i said this may be the most unimaginative offense i've seen in alabama since ray perkins in '85 when i'm go, they're going to go off tackle left. they're going to go off tackle right. can alabama actually be a bit more imaginative tonight and keep georgia off balance? >> they could. joe, back to as far as your question about me still being alive, i ask that question about you and mika every morning now watching. >> yes. >> i think they can.

joe, you watch alabama football, they win ugly, and that's how nick saban likes it because he is a defensive mastermind and that's how they won the game monday night against clemson. they just completely shut them down. should they win tonight, and i think you and i both think they will, they'll shut georgia's running game down, much like auburn did the first time they met. jalen hurst is a very good quarterback. he's not a particularly great passer. but he is dynamite when he gets out in space running. so that's what they lean on. i was talking to a head coach yesterday who asked me what's happened to the lane kiffin offense. he left last year right before the championship game. we haven't seen much of it this year. >> no, we certainly haven't. mike? >> paul, i want to ask you is it possible to overstate, overstate, the emphasis, the obsession of nick saban with getting back to this game tonight and how long has he been obsessed with getting back to this game tonight? >> mike, it's truly remarkable.

for those out there who don't keep score of nick saban on a daily basis like joe and i do, this is nick saban's seventh national championship game appearance. he's won five. last year is the only time he's lost. and he was undefeated last year. got beaten on the last play of the game against clemson. the season was an abject favor. it would have been one of the greatest teams in alabama and college football history. so that has driven them back to tonight and that's why i think smart people cannot magic in saban losing. now, if he wins this game, he will tie bear bryant, who coached at alabama of course, for six national championships. and after that, mike, i don't know what else he has to accomplish. i mean, he is 66 years old. >> and still takes a hit on the sideline pretty well. >> jalen hurd right into --

yeah, he is still pretty good. >> do you expect the alabama defense to be able to stuff the running game of georgia? >> i do. the one question i have and alabama has battled injuries all season long. the clemson game was the healthiest they have been. they lost one of their best linebackers in that game. there's another thing to keep your eye on tonight. fitzpatrick, the best player on alabama's team, the safety, he bruised his kidney and there's some concern -- >> oh, boy. >> i don't know if i want to say great concern. i wouldn't feel comfortable playing with a bruised kidney. he'll have a flak jacket, i'm told. but that's someone to keep your eye on. if he can hold up, i think alabama's in great shape. >> so paul, we've been talking, obviously, you and i, off and on, about nick saban for years now, since he came to alabama. what separates him from every other coach in an extraordinarily competitive world of college football? what can he do that other

coaches just haven't been able to do? >> joe, they're all relentless and they all recruit hard, but he never stops. he is never satisfied. not to become a psychologist here early in the morning, but he is never satisfied. even in winning. two years ago, after the game, it was his fifth national championship. i congratulated him. i said many believe you are the greatest coach in college football history. he would have slapped me if he could. he does not want to hear that. i think the great people in any field and i'll leave politics aside here don't want to hear it. it's mental clutter to them. it gets in their way. i think if saban wins tonight, he'll be back tomorrow morning trying to win another one. he does not enjoy winning. he is a joyless winner but when he loses, which is very rare, he becomes obsessed with overcoming that consequence. >> and you just actually described the secret to greatness unfortunately that

it's people who hate losing. a lot more than they like winning. in fact, when they win, they begin to get worried about their next possible loss. >> they do. >> paul finebaum, thank you very much. >> roll tide, paul. >> thank you, mika. >> and that does it for us this morning. >> final predictions, rich? because we're going to -- we did this in the virginia race and we were wrong. alabama or georgia? >> alabama. >> mika? >> alabama. >> can you predict georgia? >> roll tide. >> alabama by ten. >> alabama even though i'm not supposed to say that as a mississippi state fan. >> i'll have my apron on tonight. >> all right, we have just doomed the crimson tide. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage. the nightingales say hello. >> ah, thank you so much, joe, my best to the sailing nightingales. i'm stephanie ruhle. this morning, weighing all the options. an nbc news exclusive report reveals the president's legal team is