that's wrap of this hour of msnbc live, i'll see you again at noon. now it's time for "am joy" with joy reid. >> are you just a phenomenon? is it possible for everybody to be what you've become? >> no, it's not. but it's possible for a lot of people to become successful and very successful. this is where luck comes in. you have to be born lucky in the sense that you have to have the right genes to go out, in my business, if it's making deals, to become jack nicklaus, chris evert, marina, you need a certain gene. >> so where are you from? it's a relatively innocuous question which can be annoying if you're a person of color, but really, no harm done.

in trump's america, it's become loaded. here's how trump might answer it. donald trump's mother was scottish. trump said in the past he feels scottish. his grandfather was from germany. his father fred trump changed the name to trump in the 1940s concealing the family's origins claiming they were swede itch because fred, a real estate developer in queens, new york recognized being german in the midst of world war ii was bad for business. fred trump was also arrested at a clan rally in new york in 1927. he and his son donald settled a complaint by nixon's justice department in the 1970s to discriminating by black would-be tenants. that's the story of the trumps. when donald trump talks about what he thinks america should look like going forward what he wants to see is more frederick

drumpf's and fewer people like my mother and father who emigrated to the u.s. in 1960 from british guyana and the democratic republic of congo. places that according to donald trump are "shithole countries" as are apparently haiti, el salvador, honduras. as first reported by dick durbin, the president's assessment of much of the plant net where the majority of people are not white came during an oval office meeting with congress to hash out an immigration policy. they could impact 1 mi1 million undocumented workers and others who want to migrate to the u.s. and the daca fix. joining me now is pastor mark burns, co-founder and ceo of the now television network and a member of the donald trump

evangelical pastor. >> what is your reaction to donald trump calling the african countries and haiti shithole countries, pardon my language. >> if, this is allegedly he said, let's be clear, this is an alleged -- there are two other members of -- republican members in there, they deny that the president stated -- >> they didn't. >> they denied or they said that it didn't come down to the way it's been portrayed. >> nope. nope. hold on one second before you go further. the two senators are tom cotton and david perdue of arkansas and georgia. they did not deny the president said it. they said they could not recall what the president said. in fact, no one has denied it. this is from my producers. the white house issued a statement following what happened, and they, too, did not deny it.

their response to whether or not the president said what he is t alleged to have said is that certain washington politics choose to fight for foreign countries, but president trump will always fight for the american people. >> we don't have proof. >> were you in the room? >> were you in the room? >> i don't have to be. people in the room said he said it. >> others say he did not say it. >> wait a minute -- >> i have from a higher authority in the white house that he did not say it. were you in the room? >> no. >> can you say for a fact, joy, he said it. >> yes, i can. >> you're taking other peoples reco words for it. >> excuse me, lindsey graham, who also confirms and confirmed to tim scott his fellow south carolina senator that trump said it said the following comments by the president, i said my

piece directly to him yesterday. the president and all those attending the meeting know what i said and how i feel. so lindsey graham one supporter of donald trump also said he said it. let's move on from that. >> i think it's cowardly. if he said it, they should come out and say he said it. >> i agree with that, they are cowardly for not saying it to cameras like dick durbin did. what are your thoughts on the president of the united states referring to the 54 countries on the african continent, haiti and other countries, as shithole countries. your response to that. >> first of all, it will be preposterous if it was said. i would disagree wholeheartedly to even calling these countries, nigeria, african countries, plenty of countries that are not shithole countries. i would disagree, disavow any type of language spoken. that's not how i would speak. i wouldn't want to be connected to people who would talk like

that. but let's get to the real heart of the matter -- >> you are connected to the president because you're on his evangelical council. >> the fact is many of those countries like haiti are in the worst situations because of governments that are not taking care of their own people. we are talking about people leaving their own country and coming to america when in reality president trump clearly ran on a make america great again policy, which is why he won. americans want people, if they do come to america, to offer something that will be better for america, not just simply send people who because of their weak, broken governments, dishonorable in a lot of ways governments in some of these countries who are not taking care of their own people. the bible says that a person is worst than an infidel when they refuse to take care of their own people of their own kind.

i believe president trump was saying it is clear that we love thy neighbor. people say, pastor what about love thy neighbor. we love our neighbors. we send hundreds of millions of dollars of aid to men in these countries and these corrupt government is, and leaders taking advantage of the people that are there. even the clintons who allegedly stole millions and millions of dollars from the earthquake relief fund -- i see you looking crazy, joy. >> i'm just listening to you. >> everybody can do a quick meme and they can say look at what joy looks like on television. we do love thy neighbor. we do help. we don't leave people test put. those millions of dollars could be coming to america to help other minorities in our own country. >> can i get a word in edgewise? >> it is your show. >> you quoted first timothy 5 through 8, and that verse refers to a man who would not take care of his own family and immediate

family. >> sure. >> i'm a church girl. i used to teach sunday school in denver, colorado. i love a bible verse myself. hold on -- >> talk more about jesus on your show. >> i will quote the word of the lord. isaiah 10:2, in the bible says whoa to though who enact evil statutes and who constantly record unjust decisions so to deprive the needy of justice so that widows may be their spoil and they may plunder orphans. the bible verse you talked about talking about caring for one's own family and immediate family. this bible verse that is repeated much more in the bible talks about caring for the least of these widows and orphans. you talked about haiti, specifically not caring for its own people. a golfment that vernment that i. how can you justify sending people back to such a country? how can you as a man of god

justify sending people back to that country. >> this is not about sending people back. >> this is what donald trump's policy is. >> we -- the deeds is -- >> answer my question first. >> the deeds are this, words are -- >> answer my question first. wait a second. hold on a second. we're not talking about sending african-americans to haiti. time out. time out. "am joy." time out. time out. >> joy, this is the -- >> i will get an answer to my question before you do another -- i let you talk for a long time. how do you justify, sir, you're the one who said that this is about trump's deeds. trump's deed is to revoke and send people back to haiti, a country you said is ill-equipped to take care of its own people. >> it's not the responsibility of the united states of america to be the united states of the global world. this is the united states of america. you, joy, i am american.

the president of the united states job, i had vhis vow and s to protect and defend the constitution of the united states and the citizens of the united states. now, we are not leaving those people to die. we're sending aid. >> you're sending them to die. >> we're sending millions of dollars. let me say -- let me ask you a question. >> you don't have to ask me questions, when i'm on your show you can ask whatever you want. your party wants to cut the aid. your party doesn't believe in foreign aid. >> wouldn't that money do good for other african-americans? let's talk about the black mothers and fathers. >> okay. i think you are now -- are you then advocating for universal healthcare to make sure those black mothers and fathers in this country have healthcare? >> let's talk about the nfl, and people not getting their money. >> the nfl? what does the nfl have to do

with universal healthcare in america. >> let's talk about black people in america. we're talking about black people in haiti. let's talk about black people in america. >> i have one more question. >> there's one thing that the president and i do disagree with. >> that's good. >> i disagree that i don't think we need more -- more reference to his norwegian immigration policy. i don't think we need more white liberals coming to america. i think we need to share it all. when we open the door, as we open the door, we don't need more white liberals coming to the country. >> are you saying that you want to have a policy based on peoples ideology? norwegians have been quite clear they don't want to come up here. >> this is america, joy. you're on -- you're on -- >> i know where i love. one more question. i will attempt to get an answer to it. >> black people in america are suffering. >> i'm one of them. i knows there plenty of black people here. >> so am i. they're suffering. so we're talking about haiti. what is the role -- one more question. i will give you one more chance

to answer my question, then we'll be done here. you're wasting my time when you talk over me and don't answer my question. >> you're wasting my time. >> then good-bye. let's bring in our panel. we have tara dowdell. karine jean-pierre, and maria kumar. i will throw it out to the panel. i don't know i got an answer to my question on whether or not the u.s. role in the world is keved by sending people from specifically haiti back to a country that pastor burns says is substandard, ill equipped and cannot take care of its own people. you are of haitian background. can you make sense of that, karine jean-pierre? >> i can't make sense of anything he just said. it's troubling the words he used, the comments he made. let's be clear. i think he and donald trump need

to go through a history lesson of this country, of the united states, and also countries of haiti, especially if you're talking about people in the way he's talking about haiti. hate pi haditi had a successful independence, their independence encouraged the freedom movement for south america. another thing he needs to understand, the pastor and donald trump need to understand is that haiti has been exploited and governed by the united states in the past. it's troubling when you have people who call themselves a pastor, a person who is in the white house who doesn't have any time of understanding of history at all. also haiti contributed so much to this country. i want to go back to the top when you were talking about racism, if donald trump said those things or not with the pastor. look, if it walks like a duck --

if it walks like a racist, talks like a racist, acts like a racist, it's a racist. we have a racist president in the white house who pushes his racism like a peacock. it's clear how he feels about immigration. he puts basically a sign on the statue of liberty saying whites only. no one else need to apply. it's troubling, and i really throw this to the republicans out there on the hill, what are you going to do? are you really going to continue to embrace all this racism policies that the president puts forth? is that what you're going to do? you know, it's going to be troubling. next week will be an important week because we have the cr coming forth, and democrats and republicans need to make sure that the d.r.e.a.m. act is included. >> absolutely. pastor mark burns who does not believe in taking care -- my brother's keeper, being thy

brother's keeper said we need to have witnesses in the room to tell us what happened. no, i was not in the room. let me play somebody who was. senator dick durbin of illinois, the only person so far who had the guts to come out and say to camera rwhat happened in that room, and no one has yet to call him a liar. here he is on friday telling us what happened in the room. >> you've seen the comments in the press. i've not read one of them that's inaccurate. he went on and started to describe the immigration from africa being protected in this bipartisan measure. that's when he used this vile and vulgar comments calling the nations they come from shitholes. the exact word used by the president. not more, not just once, but repeatedly. that was the nature of this conversation. >> you know, evan, you are republican. >> that's true. >> you know the policy of the republican party not just donald

trump is at present to limit immigration, particularly limit immigration from non-european countries. mitt romney said self-deportation. donald trump, not his words, to pastor burns commentary, but his deeds are more deportation, fewer immigrants that are not european, apparently more norwegians. wonder why he wants that. what do you make of those comments made in the oval office? is there a way back for donald trump from having said that. >> donald trump campaigned on making america great again. he wants other countries to respect us. now he's being going around the country saying other countries now respect us. no, they don't respect us when you're willing to insult other countries and people from there. i think that it's not making america great again. it's making america look weak. like we have an insecure bully leading us. one big problem we have is that world leaders look at donald trump and think this is not a guy playing with a full deck in terms of he doesn't understand

what the situations are. he doesn't even know what's all in the foreign policy circles the rule of five. when you talk about one country, it affects four other countries. he doesn't consult with them, our allies are upset. as a conservative one thing that attracted me to the movement is how we talked about morals and stand up for people who were treated badly and how we would push back against coarse language. the president of the united states is the top of that. what happens when i go to somebody from nigeria, haiti, and say i actually care about you? donald trump is the prism in which the republican party is viewed through. they'll see me as another racist. >> when we come back, i'll let the rest of the panel in one big

irony of all this is that the republican party seems to believe in a grand and big role in the world for america, and that america had more leadership to exert around the world. we heard from donald trump's pastoral advisers, reverend burns, was no, the only obligation of the american president is to zero in on our interests in the united states and to hell with the rest of the world. that's an interesting way to make america great again. my panel is sticking around. more "am joy" coming up. ♪ whooo! yeah! ♪ mmmmm. want some? it's good, it's refreshing. ♪ this is what our version of financial planning looks like. tomorrow is important, but she's only seven once. spend your life living. find an advisor at northwesternmutual.com.

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>> mr. president, are you a racist? mr. president, will you respond to these serious questions about the statement, sir? mr. president, are you a racist. >> one day after making unde undeniably racist comments, trump ignored shouted questions from april ryan about whether or not he is a racist. this occurred moments after he signed a proclamation honoring dr. martin luther king jr. as we often say about this presidency, you cannot make this stuff up. we're back with our guests. we will get everybody in. i will start at the table. mari maria, i will let you respond to it all.

>> last night i said i'm concerned about three other words that the president said that no one is disputing, which is take them out. because what that means in terms of policy on the ground. in response to the pastor, you know, i wish that he would take his flock to the many multiple immigrant detention centers, immigrant detention camps, because they are filled with africans and haitians. people think it's just mexicans like me. no, no, no. it's filled with people from there. so this notion of we're prote protecting our own, no, no, no, these are our people. they are, in fact, being rounded up and they are being placed into these -- no one has seen them. i've been thinking about this. you don't see every night the parade of immigrants that are being detained and then put into these places. you don't see them. why? so then what happens when the president labels these countries and the people from these countries this terrible word?

i was impressed the "new york times" had a piece this morning that said there's an international conversation around the dehumanizing of migrants. >> yep. >> what does that mean? so what that calls upon all of us is to elevate the conversation. this is not like pretend. this is happening now. i feel it urgently. >> it is very important. we get caught up. because this is cable tv, the media is sort of zeroing in on that word. because the fact is the president of the united states speaks in such vulgar terms. it's shocking. but maria makes a point, which is it's the policies cha are really at issue here. you had even before donald trump mislabeling all those countries, mass deportation was his strategy. rounding people up. they've been deporting young people who have daca despite their status that is supposed to be protected. he yanked tps from haitians, from hondurans, you're talking

about tens of thousands of people that this president wants to deport. he said put me down for wanting more europeans. they're trying to exchange non-white immigrants for white immigrants, and it's the policy that is at issue. >> racist believes equal racist policies. that's the point. that's why trump's rhetoric is so dangerous and why we need to condemn it forcibly and we need do it over and over again. people say why do you keep talking about this over and over again? the other side of the coin is not only do racist believes drive racist policies, racist believes repeated over and over again in the way donald trump is doing it drives conscious and unconscious bias. that's the same unconscious bias and conscious boyias that stoia people of color from getting loans, stops people from getting

employed, the same unconscious bias that is tearing families apart. people who were contributing in this country, making this country better, sending them back to countries that are unsafe, that they had the bravery to escape and come here to seek a better life which is the promise of america. >> right. >> i want to make one more point. i heard people say we shouldn't highlight the huge success stories. we should highlight the success stories of those people, the big success stories, because the point of white supremacy is to demonstrate that people of color, immigrants don't have the ability to do big things. don't have the intellectual riggri rigor to pull off big things. every time donald trump says this. to be clear, somebody listening to pastor burns, maybe not in this audience, someone listening

to pastor burns, what he said will resonate. unconscious bias will destroy this country, and conscious bias has been the bane of this country's existence. donald trump is basically the embodiment of that. >> yeah. at the same time, it says on the statue of liberty, give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free. it didn't say give us your highly intellectual blond nor regions, or we can guarantee conservatives. the doe humehumanitarianization migrants which is the bigger picture, and brexit, donald trump said before that all haitians, all have aids. and he said that for nigerians, once they seen the united states they would never go back to their huts in africa. this is not a mindset that donald trump did not invent. there's a mindset in the party that anyone coming to the party

is coming to steal welfare, live off the american people, and that they are a drain on society and it's easy to get them out as donald trump says, push them all out. >> that's called ignorance, that's what that is called. any educated, thoughtful good person would disagree with any of those comments that donald trump made regarding those countries. everybody knows that. there's none of my friends that i know that are republicans think that those comments are dandy and they don't unite people. but what we have got to look at is, you know, we all agree on this panel, we all agree that's not what we need. and that, you know, america was built on, you know, immigrants. but what we need to do is we have got some serious issues coming down the pipe. that's daca. we have some people that are very nervous, joy, wondering if they're going to have to leave their home. they know america. that's the only home they know.

we have got to learn how to work together. even though these comments are heinous, they're bad. we have to work together to make sure we can get some good legislation that we can get protection for daca and we can get, you know, our borders continuing to be secure. so we have a lot of things that we have got to go past and look past. while i like a thoughtful conversation on things, i think things have to be addressed, we have some darn really important issues that we have got to work together as right and left to make sure these people are protected. >> maria, can democrats realistically work across the table with a president who sees a korean american analyst come into his office to brief him on important policy matters and demands to know where she's from, insists when she says new york, manhattan, that he tells her, no where your people are

from. when she reveals she's korean-american, says why don't we have the pretty korean lady negotiating with north korea. this is somebody who is so deeply unable to see somebody as just a human being, i'm not sure democrats can negotiate with him. here are the people in the room with him when he was making the policy. there's one latino in the room. he also is not one of the people that pushed back. my former congressman didn't say anything back. how do democrats work with these people? >> it's not even the democrats. the republicans have a serious problem. he's permanently damaging their brand. let's take a step back. he is creating immigration policy absent the democrats and the republicans coming up with anything. what i mean by that, by rescinding daca and tps, by

ensuring we don't address the back lock of 3 million people waiting for residency because of backlog, he's creating a whole class of undocumented immigrants that all of a sudden get rounded up even though they're playing by the rules that the federal government laid out they should be doing. he's creating a whole new class of undocumented i grants so that you have the prison industry, the prison detention industry making a lot of money. when we say his -- he likes to boast and say deportations are down. he's right they are down, but we are right now witnessing an expansion of the detention system the way we have never seen before. the other thing that they are trying to do now at border is encouraging the separation of children and parents from each other. that is un-american. that is something that is vile. that is going against our family values. i want to address what reverend burns said. he was so knowledgeable on our

contributions when it comes to foreign aid, less than 2% of our gdp goes to foreign aid. it's to ensure we have authority that we have a leadership in the world and more importantly it's -- we are the beacon of recognizing human rights. we are doing a dismal job now within our borders. shame on the republican party that does not see what they are doing to this country. we are right now if you are in a kindergarten class of 5-year-olds, they are the first generation of a majority minority country. we have 25 years to get this stuff straight, we're not doing it well for our children. >> i wish we had more time. i want to thank the panel. thank you guys. appreciate it. coming up, before the 2016 election, a candidate paid

somebody six figures to cover up an affair. stay with us. ♪

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on friday the "wall street journal" reported that donald trump's long-time attorney paid a former adult film actor, stephanie clifford, $130,000 one month before the 2016 election. the journal cited people familiar with the matter that said the money was part of a nondisclosure agreement to keep quiet allegations of a 2006 affair between trump and

clifford a year after trump married melania. the "journal's" sources say clifford does not claim the account was nonconsensual. in statements released friday neither the white house nor trump's lawyer denied the payment. according to a statement, the woman denies an affair with trump, but daniels reherself cod not be reached for comment. there's a couple weird things about this story. the statement. the fact that michael cohen sent this statement to the "wall street journal" and to us at nbc, and it is signed by stormy daniels, this woman's stage name. and it is dated january 10, 2018, which says rumors that d

strike you as odd? >> it did. we contacted cohen on wednesday morning, and we got this statement about three hours after that. >> is he her lawyer? >> no, he's not her lawyer. the relationship as we reported it, they reached a nondisclosure agreement. so she and he agreed to keep any allegation of a sexual encounter confidential. >> yeah. >> he asked for the statement, potentially she sent it to him. >> so it could be the chain of custody is that the statement was sent by her to him and by him to you. >> we reached out to her several times. >> just as a matter of journalistic practice, those who are watching the show, so you know, when there's a story about

someone, we reach out to them for comment, we give them sufficient time, would it be normal to reach out for comment from stormy daniels rather than stephanie clifford? the name on the response is her stage nanl. >> i'm not sure what's normal in this situation. she goes by stormy daniels, that's how she signed it. >> part of the cohen statement sent to us at nbc, it says these rum verse been circumstan rumors have been circumstance lated sin sing latcirculated since 2011. is this the same woman who was mentioned as having been having an affair allegedly hushed up by the national inquirer before the

election? >> not the same woman. we reported before the election that karen mcdoingal, a fo acdo had an affair, and she was paid $150,000 not to talk about her aa affa affair. >> the other thing that makes this story interesting, normally it would be a front page story, but with donald trump it's not the top story this week. you had in the michael wolf book, "fire and fury," and it's been reported elsewhere that according to steve bannon, steve bannon claims that donald trump's lawyer took care of 100 women or so drurduring the presidential campaign. this is a business insider article that is an excerpt from this book. kasowitz has known trump for 25

years. he la ghas gotten him out of a of jams, bannon reportedly said. do you think there's other women? >> we don't know of other women besides the two we reported on that were paid. it's possible there were threats made against other women. it is possible there were other payments made. we don't have reporting now. seems like a high number, 100. >> it seems. >> just to be silenced, but there were a lot of allegations. i don't know whether that's an accurate or not. >> an interesting story. apparently she was going to do an interview, tv interviews. just to button this up, you have not been able to talk to this woman directly? >> no, we reached out to her. she hasn't commented. both she and karen mcdoogle were going to go on "good morning america" at around the same time, neither went on. stormy daniels spoke to other media outlets as well, but has

not spoken publicly. >> she is welcome to come on this show if she wants. >> coming up in the next hour, dianne feinstein spills the beans and oprah opens the door. more "am joy" after the break. before you and your rheumatologist move to another treatment, ask if xeljanz xr is right for you. xeljanz xr is a once-daily pill for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. it can reduce pain, swelling and further joint damage, even without methotrexate. xeljanz xr can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma and other cancers have happened. don't start xeljanz xr if you have an infection. tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened. your doctor should perform blood tests before you start and while taking xeljanz xr, and monitor certain liver tests. tell your doctor if you were in a region

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everything we stand for. when you've got a close mate, you stand with them in times of adversity, but you call them out when they're wrong. there are many things about which donald trump is wrong. >> donald trump is skipping a scheduled trip to london next month. he says it's because of a bad deal ork trachestrated by the o administration to sell the embassy. it looks like the real reason he called off the trip was because londoners didn't want him there in the first place. his devicive rhetoric and agenda are not welcome in london and will be met with mass peaceful protest. joining me to discuss is martin

lewis. donald trump tweeted the reason i cancelled my trip to london is i am not a big fan of the obama administration having sold the best located embassy in london. bad deal. wanted me to cut ribbon. no. is that why trump cancelled? >> listen, first of all, i normally defer to president trump on anything matters to do with real estate. after all, he had real estate companies that went bankrupt four times and in the '70s the u.s. government charged his landlord companies with racial prejudice. but on this he happens to be completely correct. the reason the u.s. embassy in london was moved was instigated by george w. bush after 9/11. it wasn't a bad deal. the obama administration oversaw it. they got a new embassy built for $1.2 billion. it didn't cost the u.s. taxpayers one cent. the obama administration was so good they actually sold off the

old embassy and did it for nothing. a hint to president trump, that's the way to get the mexican wall built. just sell off all the trump properties. >> the mayor of london said, look, don't come. the londoners are glad donald trump isn't coming. can you just unpap tck the background of the feud between those two men. >> when london had a terrorist attack, donald trump misquoted a remark by sadiq khan and just started these insults. sadiq khan stands up to bullies and won't have anything of it. this is actually quite good news for the president, because the british equivalent of the attorney general has the power to ban anybody who is considered an undesirable person. they have so far 1.9 million

british people have signed a petition saying he's undesirable. he got a record breaking 128% said he is undesirable. >> it's amazing because we haven't seen this much a-- do yu anticipate that happening? >> the demonstrations would be larger than the crowd that he had for the inauguration. moreover, under british law, if he said anything that was racially hateful or insighting, he could be arrested. he doesn't get diplomatic immunity. you have to be diplomatic to get diplomatic i manhunmmunity.

if you're a criminal in prison, you're not allowed to wareear a wig, a hair plug or a weave. >> i have to ask about donald trump's shithole countries comments. >> i hate using the word shithole. could we change it to trumphole? i think that would be better. he said africa is a nation. africa is a continent. when you an intern read you a health report and say you are incontinent, that's the continent. the african continent has 54 nations, 18 of which are part of the british commonwealth, whose

head her majesty the queen. i'll tell you who they really would like to see in britain make a state visit. that is the delightful porn actress stormy daniels. she'd be very welcome. that'ses a go s es s es a -- t news for donald trump. if he pays every american $130,000 to keep our mouth shut, we'd all shut it and it would only cost him $423 trillion. >> martin lewis, you're a national treasure. up next, when it comes to the trump dossier, sunlight is the best disinfectant. that's next.

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the taxpayers reimbursing christopher steele the democrats were paying him for this dossier. >> it's about russian disinformation being used to slander donald trump. >> if you have read the dossier that we've heard so much about, you know it's just bs. >> i think it's very sad what they've done with this fake dossier. it was made up. i understand they paid a

tremendous amount of money. >> for weeks donald trump and his allies have been spinning a tale about how the real russia scandal is not about trump at all, but rather the infamous dossier with its explosive claims unearthed by christopher steele. team trump has dismissed the dossier as false and politically motivated. their allies in the republican party have pursued those responsible for producing the dossier, rather than investigating its claims, all while refusing to release testimony by the cofounders of fusion gps, the company that hired christopher steele in the first place. diane feinstein released the 312-page transcript of testimony by glenn simpson, the head of fusion gps before the senate

judiciary committee. over ten hours of questioning, simpson painstakingly gave answers that tell a very different story than what we've been hearing from trump world. simpson said mr. steele has a sterling reputation as a person who doesn't exaggerate, doesn't make things up. going onto add, everyone i know who's ever dealt with him thinks he's quite good. that would include people from the u.s. government. simpson also testified when steele went to the fbi, his motivation doesn't political. he thought there was an issue, a security issue about whether a presidential candidate was being blackmailed. simpson said the information steele was revealing doesn't news to the fbi. quote, they believed chris's information might be credible because they had other intelligence that indicated the same thing. one of those pieces of intelligence was a human source from inside the trump

organization. joining me now paul butler and malcolm nance. thank you for being here. there were four commthree commit received testimony by these fusion gps heads. >> why did you decide to do that? >> because i think people are entitled to know what was said and the lawyers also wanted it released. i see no problem with releasing it. >> senator grassly says you've jeopardized their ability to get certain witnesses like kushner. your reaction? >> i don't think so. that's been difficult in any

event. >> is diane feinstein right, that there was nothing preventing this information from being released and it does not prevent the committees from receiving further testimony? >> absolutely. it has nothing to do with kushner. mueller or the congress can subpoena him and make him talk. when there's a movie made about this, there's going to be this dramatic scene where we see steele doing routine opposition research and he comes across information that's so troubling that he thinks the man who was the next president of the united states is subject to blackmail. he goes to his boss and tells him the evidence. he's concerned there's a crime in progress and that's when they go to the fbi. this is very damaging testimony. >> if you could just sort of unpack for the viewers, you know, if somebody like christopher steele is hired to do sort of general research and

he finds information and on his own goes to the fbi, how strong a signal is that that there's not just necessarily evidence of a crime, but of something really potentially jeopardizing american national security. >> people in the intelligence community, whether it's the united states or foreign allies, we all have a level of counter intelligence security that we constantly keep honed in case we see something that's nefarious. it's built into your career field. so when someone is doing research, even though he's collecting what we call rumor intelligence, and he sees this sort of snowballing effect of information that shows that a candidate for presidency of the united states is not just, you know, under the influence of people, but may in fact be in cooperation or conspiracy with these people, you know, it doesn't just affect the national security of the united states. it affects the national security

of all of the nato allies and anyone who will be in any form of communication or contact with the united states. so the first thing you want to do is you want to report that. the in fact he went to the fbi tells him that there was a crime in progress. he felt compelled to bring this to us. and most interesting is the fact that we already knew. there are other information out there on this subject, i'm sure. >> we're going to come back to that in a moment. one of the things that's been the most troubling, the idea that there was a potential crime in progress, a national security threat in progress. but the way that republicans have responded to that is not by saying, oh my god, we need to go ahead and investigate that crime and figure out how to secure the united states. senators have referred the author of the dossier for a criminal probe. they've actually said that it is

christopher steele who is the criminal. this is diane feinstein responding to the republican's attack on christopher steele. >> why do you think they referred to steele to the justice department for potential criminal investigation? >> my own view, because to my knowledge there has not been a single fact in that reported that has been proven to be incorrect, that it's really to muddy the waters and create a problem. you know, steele brought this information in to the fbi. it's quite amazing that you get punished for providing information. >> i mean, how dangerous is that, that somebody providing information could themselves face punishment for partisan reasons? >> it's extremely dangerous.

it's dangerous in two facets. one is legal. i think they're trying to demonize christopher steele, who has a sterling character, a great reputation. there's no basis for it. to try to prevent him from testifying in the united states, because if you look at the damage that the fusion gps testimony did to trump's reputation and the helpfulness of it to the mueller probe, you could see if that's that bad, then what does christopher steele have to say. the other way this battle is being fought is as pr and for the republicans as propaganda. they need to consider not just how the probe is going to be conducted but how americans are going to receive this information. who are they going to consider trustworthy? what are they going to do if they find out that the fbi has been looking into trump's connections with the kremlin for a long time. this person is now the president of the united states and has put our sovereignty in jeopardy, has put our national security in jeopardy, and the republican

party has done absolutely nothing about it but try to abet it. they have to think what can we do to make americans feel like this is inaccurate information. they've been trying to put that groundwork in play for a long time so that when mueller does reveal more information, people simply won't accept it. >> is christopher steele in legitimate legal jeopardy here? can republicans actually get him prosecuted? >> no. the concern, joy, is that the congressional investigations are getting dogged do bogged down i with the democrats fulfilling their responsibility to the united states by focusing on collusion and whether the president in his campaign tried to steal the election and cover up. the republicans are deflecting. unsubstantiated concerns about steele and hillary clinton.

once again, the nation has to turn its anxious eyes to robert mueller, the special council. that's probably the only way we're going to get an objective version about whether there was collusion and a coverup by the campaign. >> meanwhile, you have trump's lawyer michael cohen suing buzzfeed which released the dossier. how much did these threats of either prosecution or legal action chill the work of people like him who might want to come forward? you already had those australian diplomats come forward and apparently implicate geor-- doe chill the work of people in the field to know that there would be a witch hunt against them or lawsuits attached to them if they come forward to try to help the united states? >> no, i don't think so. to tell you the truth, anyone

who's a professional in this field who gains information that is at this level of significance is going to be out raising the alarms. this does not just affect the national security of the united states. the fact that an australian came forward and brought that information to his intelligence agency, that a british intelligence officer who ran the russia desk would have to collect this information and see that there was a national security risk to the united kingdom as well as the united states and all of nato by extension, tells you of the professionalism of these individuals. the trump administration right now by going after them in a criminal setting is just making a laughingstock out of themselves. what it will do is you're going to find out that nation states may decide they are going to start passing on information and not leave it up to individuals, because their own national

sovereignty may be at stake with a president who is technically out of control. >> there is the question of the trustworthiness of the united states and how much other countries can actually share with the united states and how much our leadership shares with the public. i don't know if you are troubled by the fact that the fbi, knowing they were investigating donald trump, didn't say so while they did confirm they were investigating hillary clinton. there is at some level of the fbi an unwillingness to let the american people know what was happening. does that trouble you? >> it troubles me grateleatly. i'm troubled by the stuff in the testimony from fusion gps about the media, about the fact that they went to publications like the "new york times" who then said there is no link between trump and the kremlin, knowing full well there was. and that was before the election. had this information come out before the election, it may have swayed it in a different

direction and we wonuldn't be having this conversation right now. i'm really glad that senator feinstein did this. what we need most of all is transparen transparency. >> malcolm, you were signaling agreement. >> absolutely. so long as the information we're getting -- by the way, the information we're getting right now is a fraction of what is in the hands of the special counsel robert mueller. just imagine what he has. when it comes out, whether it's in the a report or leaks in the future, this is going to be earth shattering. there is just no way that this is not going to be one of the most significant events in the history of the united states. >> do you think at this stage, if you had to guess, that bob

mueller already has the answers to his questions and is now providing backup in case he needs to do process accuse cushions that will stick? >> mueller has an extraordinary power to subpoena everybody to the grand jury and make them talk under penalty of perjury. if we are learning all of these damaging revelations from the press and congress, the person with the real power is robert mueller. he knows a lot. and from all reports, what he knows is incredibly damaging to the president of the united states. >> to quote you, paul butler, the nation turns its lonely eyes to mueller. up next, steve bannon out of work and on the hot seat. ♪

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now that steve bannon is out of a job, he'll have plenty of free time next week for a visit to capitol hill. he'll be testifying in a closed session before the house intelligence committee on tuesday. the daily beast reports that bannon has lawyered up in preparation for his interview with the same attorney who's also representing reince

priebus. congressman, i'm going to start with you. what do you think congress could in theory get out of steve bannon, who famously in the book by michael wolf exempted himself from being in any contact with russians? >> thank you, joy, for that question. let me first say that i believe high level trump associates including potentially the president himself are in increasing legal jeopardy. that's because insiders have turned on them. we already know that michael flynn has flipped and can cooperating with the special counsel. now we know that steve bannon is going to fully cooperate with house investigates. this is at a time when steve bannon has been abandoned by the president and his allies. we all look forward to what he's doing to say. >> it is fascinating, the extent to which steve bannon sort of

gives himself credit for kind of creating donald trump, as if donald trump sprang out of his imagination. you now have donald trump in this recent interview saying he feels betrayed. asked if the split was permanent, he said we'll see what happens. that sounds like donald trump doesn't necessarily think they're split permanently. i wonder if you think that bannon does think it's permanent and he's now ready to torch donald trump in front of that committee? >> it's a very interesti ining and yang you have here. maybe it might be worth for donald trump to throw a nugget out there that, well, maybe reconciliation is possible to try to elicit some sort of loyalty from steve, who's made it very clear he's not going to go down to protect donald trump

jr., ivanka trump or jared kushner because he hates them. ultimately, steve's lease on life politically is tied to donald trump and he needs donald trump in order to have any attempt at regaining political relevancy or influence again. >> at the same time it is interesting bannon is a navy man. i believe he did have a military career for a little while. and while he is a white nationalist and incredibly vile, it was interesting hearing him describe donald trump jr.'s actions in meeting with russians to get dirt from a foreign adversary to help the campaign as treasonous. he has nothing in his self-interest to say that. does that make him an interesting potential person to testify to bob mueller? >> if i were to equate this to

the valerie plame trial, i would put steve bannon in the karl rove unindicted coconspirator role. karl rove didn't go to jail. scooter lib by did. bannon has been hedging his bets this entire time, knowing this information. the question is, when he goes in before the house intelligence committee, will he view the house republicans as providing him ample cover for him to not say anything? or as you said, will he burn donald trump to the ground? i don't believe that he'll burn trump to the ground. i think he'll try to sort of finesse the answers. i think jared kushner -- i don't think he'll spare jared kushner any favors at all during his

testimony. but donald trump jr., he may just play stupid and say that he just doesn't know. >> yeah. his apology was very focused on donald trump jr. but it is interesting, because donald trump, whether he wants to wall himself off from this book or not, he really can't. michael wolf is literally everywhere. here he is on tuesday describing the way bannon really feels about donald trump. >> the president at this moment in time was much stronger than steve bannon thought he would be. i think steve anticipated my book would appear and that would begin to precipitate his break with donald trump, who frankly he thinks is an idiot. >> not only thinks he's an idiot, but tucked in the friday "new york times" story about donald trump and steve bannon's break was this very intriguing information that in 2015 steve bannon and pethe guy who wrote

clinton cash, that the "new york times" sucked up and turned into news today -- fodder. that same team produced a dossier about donald trump. that "new york times" article specifically said that dossier was about, quote, mob ties. is it now time for congress, for these relevant committees, to is that dossier to find out what steve bannon dug up on donald trump? >> absolutely. when you look at the fusion gps testimony, there's a lot in there about organized crime and connections potentially to donald trump. so i think that's a great point that you made. also i think it's important to note that after their fire and fury came out, steve bannon's regret statement did not say that he did not say what he

said, he just regretted what he said. it's going to be hard to walk back any of his words. >> does it surprise you that bannon -- he had trump on his radio show frequently in 2015. obviously he was trying to bring him along and make him more like jeff sessions and sort of push along his natural racial proclivities to turn that into potential policy. but does it surprise you that he also investigated donald trump? >> i remember at the time during the primary that their plan was to come up with dirt on every single candidate and release tidbits throughout the republican primary. i don't think anyone thought, including steve bannon, that donald trump would win the primary and go on to be president. he wasn't invested necessarily from day one in the idea that trump was going to be the guy

and he would find himself at his right hand entering the white house. they were trying to get dirt on every candidate. their priority was getting attention on breitbart to try to make breitbart the main conversation driver of the republican presidential primary. over time that shifted and changed as it became clear that trump was going to become a legitimate, credible candidate, i guess we'll call it. hence that dossier on trump went nowhere after a certain point. there's a reason for that. >> yeah. if that intel is -- it's interesting, malcolm. you had the russian part of it where they were communicating with somebody inside the campaign. it looks like it was focused on trying to compel donald junior and jared kushner. in your view, would it be logical they would have been communicating with bannon and that bannon might actually have material information? >> i've said this from the very beginning, joy, way back in

september 2016. there were multiple russian teams making multiple contact with multiple individuals within the trump campaign and around the trump campaign in order to shape the narrative that they wanted pressed. it apparently was very successful. they seem to always get what they want in the end and they have people around them who are trying to work in their interests. bannon, on the other hand, as you know was also on the board of cambridge analytica. they themselves could possibly be the bridge between russian social media collection and targeting american citizens in voting in the three states where the election was held. you note that mueller brought on a cyber prosecution specialist to investigate just acts like that. >> it's very interesting.

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who i consider a friend, she's always been very kind and i think fair to me, but i think obviously in the interview that you just saw, if you watch joy, that she should just move to haiti since she's more concerned about haitian immigrants than black americans here in poverty. >> wow. it went on longer than that. pastor burns, let me address you. sir, i always do try to be kind to the people who are on the show, but we're not friends.

you're somebody that i am glad that you're willing to come on and i do try to be fair to you and i'm glad that you can see that. as to the idea that i need to move to haiti to be concerned about the people there, sir, you are a pastor. and in the bible -- you love to quote the bible. let me quote you john. it says whoever sees his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of god abide in him? i too am the child of immigrants and african-americans and people who consider ourselves african-americans, some of us have parents who are immigrants. by the way, since you addressed haiti specifically, let me tell you what haiti has done for us. haitians fought in the revolutionary war. there were haitians among those who helped us to do efeat brita

and free this country and make it independent. haitians overthrew the army to make possible the louisiana purchase. haitians built and created the culture of new orleans. you can't hate new orleans, right? but that culture could not have existed without the migration of people from haiti to new orleans to escape because haiti had been overthrown. haitians live in this country and contribute as doctors, as lawyers, as nurses, as scientists, as statesmen. they are a part of the fabric of this country. sir, african-americans include haitian americans. so pastor burns, i hope that you will open your heart to the people of this world, to the people of this country and do your duty as a christian to love your neighbor as yourself. but thanks for sharing your views. beyond is a natural pet food

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i'm very highly educated. i know words. i have the best words. but there's no better word than stupid. >> donald trump defended his racist comments about immigrants by tweeting about his language. quote, the language used by me at the daca meeting was tough, but this was not the language used. you've also seen some trump friends do the same thing. >> certainly journalists don't talk that way. who knew we lived in such a

puritanical society? very excited about this panel. i'm going to start with you. the way donald trump speaks, depending on whether you think there's some cognitive decline or whether it's just unfiltered malice, when you looked at the s-hole countries stuff this week, what did you hear? >> frankly, i think that we're dealing less with cognitive decline than trump has simply learn he can talk the way he always has and as . i think he just talks the way a person feels like talking rather than dressing up his speech. the business about the s-holeis- that again this is something that you might say if you are a

racist and i do believe he is a classic archie bunker racist. the surprise is he would say this in a public setting. i'm not surprised that he thinks of haiti and el salvador and africa as, quote, unquote, shitholes. he said it as a kind of stunt to show he can do whatever he wants. it really fell out of his gosh darned mouth. >> do you think it was in part because he was in what he saw as unmixed company. there was one person that was aa latino in a room. he was mostly in a room with white older men. >> he says what he feels. >> you wrote a recent op ed in the sacramento bee where the headline was, trump is using twitter to manipulate the

country, here's how to stop falling for it." when i read donald trump's tweets, i see them as streams of consciousness the same as his speaking style. he's just dumping whatever's in his brain onto twitter. do you disagree with that? >> yes, i do. trump is a super salesman. he's been selling for 50 years. he knows how to do it. he does it instinctively and strategically in every case. his tweets are all strategic. they have four types. one is to frame first, preemptive framing. second is to divert attention from whatever threat is coming at him. then there's attack the messenger, which is attack the press, for example. and lastly, to try out some outrage yoou outrageous thing to see if there's a public reaction. all of the tweets are of that

form and they're natural because that's what salesmen do. they know how -- he knows thousand how to do this. they're all strategic, every one of them. they're general. they're not particular strategies. these are general strategies. so he's quite strategic and he's not just talking off the top of his head. the use of the curse words is not just something he happens to be saying because he's not thinking. quite the opposite. what he's doing is appealing to his base. the use of the curse words, one, show masculinity of a certain kind. secondly, they gain attention. thirdly, they show strength of feeling and they appeal to the kind of ideas that his base has. so in all cases, he's appealing to his base. >> i don't know if you agree with that. >> i don't.

>> tell me your disagreement. >> with all due respect, i think you're giving him too much credit. you use the word instinctive. i think he has an animal instinct to defend himself in the same way as somebody smacking somebody on the butt with a towel in a locker room does. he's not sophisticated. he's not that kind of pooebeast. all of this stuff just happens because he's a jerk. >> this is donald trump's tweet from january 7th. he said, the fake news awards, those going to the most corrupt and biassed of the mainstream media will be presented to the losers on wednesday january 1 h 17th. the interest in and importance of these awards is far greater than anyone could have anticipated. that's an example of his tweet. what strategy would you say is behind that?

>> preempt ive framing. he's framing the awards and attacking the free press. it's important to know what to do about it. we can do a lot about it. first, you can help him by simply retweeting it or by taking what he says and putting it on tv. if you take what he says and put it on tv, even if you criticize him, it doesn't matter. it gets his idea out there. i wrote a book called "don't think of an elephant ". if you deny something, you raise that idea. >> you're saying basically ignore it. let me play one more piece of tape. this one makes it seem he doesn't quite understand where he is. this is trump talking to reporters on wednesday. he's talking about the bipartisan meeting that took place in the white house. take a listen. >> welcome back to the studio, nice to have you here. it was a tremendous meeting. actually it was reported as

incredibly good. my performance, some of them quote that the performance, i consider it work. >> is that strategic or is he confused? >> he's not attacking a free press. he isn't mentally sophisticated enough to understand whether or not there is one. what we're talking about is somebody who has no sense of context, of adult norms, of the performative aspect of being a president. when you fight him, you have to think of somebody who's not a deliberate monster using a strategy, even if that would be more fun. you have to think of him, as i have often written, roughly 12. >> not at all. 12-year-olds don't become president. >> this one does. >> we might have changed that. this is a fascinating debate. we are out of time. fascinating conversation. thank you guys very much. still to come, oprah for president? >> she's denying any political

ambitions but two of her close friends told cnn she is actively thinking about running for president. now, i'll tell you, it's interesting. i for one would love to hear that the strait ate of the unio strong. causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. the name to remember.

i want all the girls watching here and now to know that a new day is on the horizon. [ cheers and applause ] >> nobody ever has to say me too again. thank you. >> even before oprah's golden globes speech was over, the push for a president winfrey had begun. should she run? and if she did, could she win? you guys are both being booked on the podcast, by the way. let's go around the horn and see if you all think the two questions, should she run, and

if she ran, could she win? >> should she run? no. would she win if she did? possibly. >> okay. >> i think that the hubbub over really because that people see there's a lack of leadership nationally and from the white house in general. every couple of months if somebody drops a great speech or demonstrate leadership in some capacity, they become the new person. >> you're saying he should be president. i'd vote for him. >> i do think someone that embodies her values, politics in terms of leadership capability is what people are looking for for the next president to embeside. i'm hoping the person in the white house now is a one term president. as we're thinking about what values we want the president to have, what issues we want them

to champion, she embodies that. that's the reason why you have this clinging on where it's like, yes, oprah run opinion i believe there are many other people like oprah that exists. we could rally around to be president. believe me, if those same people talking about e practice and her black girl magic running, i challenge you to support the black women who are running across the country in this mid term election. >> here's the thing. if we want somebody with her capabilities and values, why not just have the person that has the capabilities and values namely oprah herself. >> could she win, yes. donald trump, i said could win and he did. she can win. should she is a deeply -- i've done this. this is really hard.

the grinder that you put yourself through, she has no no herself inside and out. she's got great body language because that's why sh connects with views and have people on her twitter and show. this is a meat grinder. i think nobody should answer. she has to decide. it's a meat grinder. >> would you support the idea for running? >> i have no problem with it. i think the thing is wide open. if she runs, i want her to run as a democrat. i think she should. >> i think she would. >> she's no delicate flower. she's not just talent showing up on the set. she owns the set. she got there not just through talent but very hard work. swhen s when she created it, she didn't know anything about running a

television network despite her experience running it. when own started, it struggled. she moved out to los angeles and got hands on experience and got down to the grinder. she also surrounded herself with people. >> that's the important part. >> she thoughs how to do that. >> that's one of the many things that trump cannot do. she's already proved she can surround herself with competent people. >> and she knows how to manage people. >> she also knows how to listen to those people. the reason trump's businesses were a disaster, he didn't know what he was doing and wouldn't hire people unless they would kiss his you know what. >> she's not afraid to admit she's made a mistake. she's so relatable. a lot of people will say she doesn't have political experience. they say neither did trump and look what's happening. >> he had some. >> neither did lincoln.

>> i don't think trump's lack of political experience is the problem. what his experience is what he lacks as man, as a human being. >> let me ask you a question on the no, don't run side. one of the biggest barriers for running for president is you have to ramp up name id. if she hasn't to spend a dime for everyone to know her first name, why would it be more strategic to be someone with her same qualities but who is unknown or largely unknown and make them ramp themselves up to the level of name id. why not gijust run her? >> the reason i don't want her to run is because i'm protective of her. this is being protective in that as governor dean is talking about, the grinder that's a presidential campaign. i don't want that life for her. i want her to live her life to the fullest. i don't want her two through

that kind of scrutiny. that's why i would say no. there's no doubt if she came through the nomination process and was our nominee that i wouldn't support that. to your point in terms of name recognition, that's a huge barrier. running for presidency is a popularity contest. you have to have that name recognition in order to two across the country. i'm extremely protective. >> she can do it. we have seen her go through so much. >> does she want to do it at this stage in her life? >> i hope so. >> will she run? going around. >> i hope so. >> no. >> no. >> i'm going to say yes. i think she's thinking about. i think she's going from a hard no to a maybe. it could happen. >> i think she's thinking about

it. >> i didn't say what i think. if you want to know what i think, you can check out my column in the daily beast. there it is right there. you can find out what i think in that column right there. you can download the podcost. when heartburn hits... fight back fast with tums smoothies. it starts dissolving the instant it touches your tongue... and neutralizes stomach acid at the source. ♪ tum tum tum tum... smoothies... only from tums

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up next, alex witt has the latest. >> i do. i looked up. i know what you think about the whole oprah thing. i think you're right. just fyi. you have to go and check it out on daily beast. >> have great show. here we go. good day to all of you. i'm alex witt here with you. it's just now high noon in the east. here is what's happening. new fall out from the president's recorded remarks on haiti and africa including a former ambassador calling the scene at a trump mlk event surreal. supporters are fighting back. >> americans want people, if they do come to america, to all for something that's better for america. >> so is the white house in damage control mode now? or do the president's advisors think it's not necessary. reactions to allegations by a porn star being paid by donald trump's personal lawyer, buying her silence in the days before the 2016