that's our show. "hardball" starts now. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. first he fired the director of the fbi. then the president asked the guy replacing him, who did you vote for, the reporting from the "washington post" about an incredible oval office meeting shortly after andrew mccabe became the fbi's new acting director. "trump according to several current and former u.s. officials asked mccabe a pointed question.

whom did he vote for in the 2016 election. mccabe said he didn't vote at all according to the officials. mick cave found the conversation with trump disturbing." trump vented hissing ander to mccabe to the new acting fbi director about political donations to mccabe's wife who ran for the virginia state senate in 2015 as a democrat. her campaign received several hundred thousand dollars from a political action committee controlled by clinton ally and then virginia governor terry mcauliffe. that campaign happened before mick cave become comey's deputy. today sarah huckabee sanders didn't deny trump asked that question how mccabe voted. >> does the president make a habit of asking career government officials their voting habits? >> not that i'm aware of, no. >> did he ask andrew mccabe how he voted? >> look, the president and andrew mccabe have had limited

and pretty nonsubstantive conversations. i can't get into the details of what was discussed. i wasn't there. there are wide spreads reports of his retirement. we're making sure we're serving on the fbi and doj serving all americans efficiently and fairly. >> talk about a spring of nonsec question tars. >> president trump's questioning fits a pattern. according to comey trump asked for his loyalty during a meeting early in his presidency. >> the dinner was an effort to build a relationship. in fact, had he asked specifically of loyalty in the context of asking me to stay. i remember thinking, this is a very disturbing development because it was very, very awkward. he was asking for something and i was refusing to give it. >> "the new york times" reported earlier this month president trump instructed the white house counsel to stop jeff sessions from recusing himself in the russian investigation. but sessions didn't back down and according to times," the president erupted in anger in

front of numerous white house officials saying he needed his attorney general to protect him. he then asked, where is my roy cohn. that's a reference to the lawyer who once served for joe mccarthy as his top i'd i'm genuined by nicolle wallace, eli stokals and jonathan capehart from the "washington post," also a contributor. thank you for sticking it around, nicole. it seems there's a pattern here of this president. he does act like he's hiring people if not in the old political school category of the political machine brought you up, if you're not one of our toldies, you shouldn't be here or in the private sector notion, hey, you're working for me buddy. did you vote for me? it seems interesting the way he looks at career service here. >> it's stunning. it's what makes trump's allies, trumps friends, people still in touch with the president who are behind his agenda who don't want to see him get in any trouble political or legally much more

worried about the obstruction of justice investigation into the president than the collusion investigation into the president. his friends and allies think this was a campaign that couldn't include with its own press office. i'm sure you've heard that line. they've dismissed that for.months. in the last six to ten weeks, the president's allies are deeply concerned that his ideas an you put up that interview, he did that over the holidays, went rogue and did an interview with the "new york times" michael schmidt where he said i admired the way holder protected obama. he's talked about wanting his own fixer, his own roy cohn when you speak to people inside the trump orbit, it's exactly what you described. it's that style of wanting to be protected, of want his ray donovans around to clean up his messes that makes people wonder if he did stumble into obstruction of justice. >> you mean the tv ray donovan,

not the other one. >> exactly. >> not the one from the nixon administration. it seems to me that this is up guns the civil service code of the fbi. i just watched the mark felt movie. it's about the fbi's pride of service and independence. james comey and bob mueller personified, both together, person sonified the integrity of the fbi. there you have a president who knocked off this guy, james comey, because he was independent. then along comes bob mueller, i'll help fight this might because this is a fight i believe in all my life. the fbi is on trial here. no president should come along here, no matter who he is has a right to come in and bop off the head of the fbi because the guy in this case, a guy, is doing his job. >> that's right. i put three more men in the same category that you made for jim comey. and bob mueller. chris wray is very much of that

code. he knows and is a lot more similar to bob mueller and is he to donald trump and anyone around donald trump. you've got andy mccabe, a lifelong career fbi agent, respected by presidents of both parties all the way through the rank and file. the fbi just isn't in washington and the united states. it's around the world. the world is watching how andy mccabe's fate is handled under this new director of the fbi. he has to march a very, very, very careful line between appearing to be not loyal to donald trump but on the trump team while also keeping the trust and maintaining what you just described as the independence and integrity of the fbi. >> not only has he sort of decapitated the fbi by getting rid of comey but the president's now apparently leading a sort of vigilante raid against the fbi.

republican allies of the president stepped up their attacks on the fbi and the justice department claiming bias and corruption on a large scale. at issue text messages sent between two fbi employees some of which criticize president trump. one of the employees peter strzok worked on mueller's team before being reassigned last july by bob mueller because he shouldn't it be being political. this week the fbi acknowledged they were missing some messages between those two employees from december of 2016 through may of 2017. according to trump's allies this adds up to a deep seated conspiracy. let's watch? >> it may be time to declare war outright against the deep state and clear up the rot in the upper levels of the fbi and the justice department. >> the whole apple is solid but there are worms that have eaten their way all through the upper leadership. we need a house cleaning. > illustrate a conspiracy on the

part of some people and we want to know a lot more about that. we'll be continuing our joint judiciary oversight investigation. >> this makes watergate look like you know, stealing a snickers bar from your local candy store. it's that big. it's that corrupt. it's that deep. it's that profound. >> i'm not surprised there's a secret society within the establishment that was designed to get rid of trump, to deny trump the election. we were never supposed to know any of this. >> don't you love that right wing inflection? it's a certain way of talking. last night on fox news, senator johnson said he had an informant claiming some sort of secret conspiracy within the fbi working against president trump. let's watch the senator. >> what this is all about is further evidence of corruption more than bias but corruption at the highest levels of the fbi. that secret society, we have an

informant talking about a group that were holding secret meetings off site. there's so much smoke here, so much suspicion. >> stop there. a secret society. secret meetings off site of the justice department. >> correct. >> and you have an informant saying that? >> yes. >> good for britt. today johnson wouldn't say who the informant was what this alleged group was doing at this meeting or even if the informant was an fbi employee himself or herself. >> senator, do you really believe there's a secret society within the fbi trying to take down the president. >> listen, all i said is when i read those texts it, that's strzok and page's term, that didn't surprise me. i've heard from an individual that there were fbi agents or you know, management at the fbi holding meetings off site. >> off site to do what exactly? >> i don't know. >> these toldies are amazing. eli, jonathan, it seems like the

republican call to armts now is going g out and kick up dust, do anything to deflect or distract or discredit from bob mueller because they think trouble is coming. > right. that is why they are creating that hysteria that you just saw in the clip about secret societies and the deep state. this is straight out of the old sort of mccarthy playbook. he wants to know where his roy cohn is, there are all those people you just showed on television. >> the fog machine. reagan lose in the second debate to mondale, create fog. >> it is remarkable. talking about johnson says secret society and they say just quoting the text. viewed in context what we've seen of the texts they look to be joking about holding a secret meeting. there is no actual evidence that there is some secret society fbi agents meeting in the wings. you look at the composite picture of the messages they show two people who had a lot of opinions about a lot of things just as disparaging to hillary clinton as they were to donald trump. they talked about joining the

mueller investigation. strzok was quoted as saying something to the effect i don't think there's a there there. these are not people out there with a vendetta and ax to grind against trump. yet, that is the portrayal from the people trying to protect. >> you don't call something secret secret society. you don't talk about a secret society. if it's secret, you don't talk about it. it the idea this senator who is intelligent enough to be a senator. >> you question it. fair enough. why would he say it is a secret society. >> because senator johnson should know know better. if there is a secret society, then he as a member of the senate should make that charge in a hearing. bringing that mole or whatever he called that person in, put a black skrooen screen in front of them. disguise their voice. have them come and speak before is the american people in a senate hearing and talk about the secret society.

what he's doing is undermining the legitimacy of the fbi, the justice department, and just people's faith in our institutions. you're right. they're trying to create fog and they're doing something that they think is going to help them with short-term game. but in the long-term, they are destroying, they are hurting this country. >> do you agree with eli that the best surmise is they're afraid something really bad is coming? >> absolutely i think they believe something bad is coming and trying to muddy the waters to ensure whatever mueller comes up with, they will be able to say, we can't trust this because fill in the blank. it is my hope that the american people will take a look at whatever bob mueller comes up with, go into it with an open mind, read it, and come to their own conclusions and hopefully realize that the people who have been going on television and going on radio and spouting this nonsense have indeed been spouting will nonsense. >> they are telegraphing their

own fears in that way. trump telegraphed when he said i want your loyalty his own nervousness about this. this is damaging to them. >> nicole, you know communication as well as anybody. talk about modern communications. one way is to make sure you've got a good team to make sure he wanted the fbi director -- he wants the attorney general to be his bobby kennedy. heent waed a strong team. then he decided we're losing. we've got a weak team. we've got to create fog out there like you're playing a game of checkers and losing so you knock the checkerboard off the table or you lose at a game of cards. that's an 8-year-old tactic. you're losing, you ruin the game. is that what they're doing? are republicans admitting they're putting fog up there. >> it's something more sinister. it really has the potential to break apart the very coalition that elected donald trump. if you remember, that convention speech he gave in cleveland, it

was shocking because it had at its center law and order. that was 9 theme of his candidacy. the fbi just as an institution is sort of center right they're mostly libertarians. the agents in question hated every politician. there were anti-bernie messages, anti-chelsea clinton messages, anti-loretta lynch messages. the fact the republicans have put the entire republican party brand on the line to smear the character of the entire fbi over text messages between two agents who were having affair one of them disparaged everyone is political suicide. >> let's hope truth will win out and lie will not. thank you so much, nicole, for sticking around. eli, jonathan, good to have you back. coming up, a new nbc news report on the russia investigation. michael flynn concealed his interview with the fbi from president trump for two days.

why did he do that? this is a top democratic senator says all roads to the investigation leads to donald j. trump. all roads in this investigation leads to trump. that's pretty clear. plus, with trump heading to davos this week, to hobnob with the global elites, we'll hear from a union leader in this country who says despite what you hear from the white house, trump has broken his promise to working class americans and the workers he talks to say they feel betrayed. trump versus schumer. the president looking to score political points by bullying the senate democratic leader and the fate of the d.r.e.a.m.ers hangs in the balance. finally, two very different visions of africa. this is "hardball" where the action is. verything. you switched to the capital one quicksilver card. and how do you feel? [sighs] like a burden's been lifted. those other cards made you sign up for bonus cash back. then they change categories on you every few months. then you had to keep signing up! you...deserve...better. now get out there and keep earning that 1.5% cash back

on every purchase everywhere. thanks, doc. i'm not a doctor. what? [whispers] time to go. what's in your wallet? my bladder leakage was making me feel like i couldn't spend time with my grandson. now depend fit-flex has their fastest absorbing material inside, so it keeps me dry and protected. go to depend.com - get a coupon and try them for yourself. late today, president trump said he was looking forward to talk to robert mueller. sflooch will you talk to muler? >> i'm looking forward to it actually. >> you want to? >> do you have a date set.

>> there's been no collusion whatsoever. there's no obstruction whatsoever. and i'm looking forward to it. i do worry when i look at all of the things and you people don't report it with what's happening if you take a look at you know, the five months worth of missing texts, that's a lot of missing texts. and as i said yesterday, that's primetime. you do sort of look at that and say what's going on. you do look at certain texts where they talk about insurance policies or insurance where they say the kinds of things they're saying. you've got to be concerned. i would love to do that as soon as possible. >> when will you do it, mr. president? do you have a date set? >> here's the story. i don't know, no. i guess they're talking about two or three weeks. i would love to do it. i have to say subject to my lawyers and all of that. >> we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." as we learned from "the washington post" just yesterday, special counsel robert mueller's interested in questioning the

president about the circumstances surrounding michael flynn's departure from the white house. flynn has been cooperating with mueller since at least last month when he pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi in a private west wing interview that took place one year ago today. and now nbc news is reporting that flynn did not have a lawyer present when the fbi questioned him. and that he concealed that interview, believe it or not, from the president. "a lawyer for the national security council typically would be informed of such a meeting and be present for it." one person familiar with the procedure said that. flynn didn't include his own personal lawyer. he met with the two federal agents alone. two people familiar with the matter said trump was unaware flynn had spoken with the fbi till two days after it took place. that means trump learned of the interview with the fbi on january 26th. according to former fbi director james comey, it was the next day on the 27th of january that the president famously asked comey

for a pledge of loyalty. i'm joined bid richard blumenthal of connecticut and julie ansley, investigator reporter with nbc news. thank you so much. explain to me, senator, about why would a guy he headed to the national security council walk -- allow two fbi agents pretty formidably approach his door, sit with him taking notes no doubt, all alone? >> was he afraid to tell trump he had blown it that they did bug him, that they knew about the meeting with the ambassador from moscow? >> he was either afraid or he was totally fool hardy or he thought that he could conceal as he lied to the fbi about those meetings with the russian ambassador and others. but we know for sure that a president of the united states learning that his national security adviser concealed a

meeting with the fbi should have fired him on the spot. instead, he kept flynn in the white house and allowed him to resign only when "the washington post" in fact reported that he had lied. >> you're a prosecutor. what does that tell you. >> he's afraid to separate from the guy, the guy knew something on him, had something on him because had he told him to talk to kislyak and he knew all about it? how is that possible? i think that's what happened. >> it tells me that there is a suspicious motive here. and that in fact, all of these lines lead to the oval office that donald trump eventually is the one who will be held responsible. there's a credible case right now of obstruction of justice against donald trump. and i've asked, in fact, that all of the interviews before the judiciary committee be fully disclosed to robert mueller. we wrote a letter today to the

chairman of the judiciary committee, senator grassley, asking him to make those interviews available because i think there's some very material and important evidence that would further shed light on what the motives were. >> let's follow up on the legs of your prosecution theory. if trump told comey i want your loyalty, what does that tell you? >> it tells me that donald trump is fearing something in the fbi investigation and in fact, his having learned from his council don mcgahn about that interview with flynn led hip to want than loyalty from comey. >> if the president, which we know he did, told comey, i want you to go easy, it was an order, go easy on michael flynn, what's that tell you? >> and that request by the way, was made the day after flynn was permitted to resign. what it tells me is that donald trump has an apprehension. he wants to either delay or stop

or in some way impact that ongoing investigation into collusion and with corrupt intent. that's the key here, chris, because it reflects on corrupt intent. he may well have committed obstruction. >> two other things he told mccabe he wanted to know what your voting record is, did you vote me? he wanted to know if he voted for him and he wasn't satisfied and attacked him for being involved with his wife who was a democrat. that was his big sin. anything else? he went along for those days. does this sound like obstruction, the fact that he kept saying publicly like he was sending rosebuds to mike flynn, i'm with you michael, even after he fired him like he was trying to keep his mouth shut. that's the way i heard it. is that obstruction? >> concealment is obstruction done with the intent to stop an investigation going forward or influence a witness to avoid telling the truth.

>> is that what it sounded like to you? >> it will certainly raises that suspicion. i'm going to be somewhat cautious because the one who really knows here -- >> you said there's enough now to bring a charge of obstruction. >> there's a credible case of obstruction of justice against donald trump. now, robert mueller is a very experienced professional prosecutor, and he is not going to bring a charge just on a credible case. he wants proof beyond a reasonable doubt. >> as the former attorney general and long time respected attorney general of connecticut, would you have brought the charge of obstruction of justice based on what you knew in this case. >> i think robert mueller is the one who has all of the evidence. i would want to know more and have more evidence than i know right now but robert mueller may well have it. >> julia, tell us what's missing here. what else do we know in terms of a possible obstruction charge? it seemed where they're headed. >> we've talked about how mueller is looking into key 18 days between the time salliates

talked to mcgahn and the time flynn was fired. i would want to look back further to the time that flynn spoke to those key advisers at mar-a-lago who told him to go ahead and have this conversation with russian ambassador kislyak. at what point? was it before the call, after the call, before he was fired that this white house distanced themself from michael flynn? did he conceal that meeting because he wanted to conceal what was going on, or did he have an understanding with the president and staff that he was going to keep this line the whole time? a lot of that is unknown. it could be that he just got overconfident, thought he had the support of this whole white house and thought i don't need a lawyer. it's something we've seen from former generals in the past. >> you pointed out the two the surrogates for trump who told flynn to meet with the russian ambassad ambassador, one of those surrogates was his son, right? >> yeah, if we go back and you look at the plea agreement when he laid out everything that happened, it looks like k.t.

mcfarland was one of the people. >> the other was? >> his son, exactly. >> it comes from the son and k.t. who has been given a big apple bass doorship, i wonder whether he couldn't assume the boss is telling me to meet with kislyak. >> they're all in mar-a-lago with guess what, the new president donald trump. the thoughts? >> george papadopoulos is also a key person here, he's the one who had knowledge about the dirt on hillary clinton, the e-mails that were stolen and hacked and offered to the trump campaign. and he in turn being in touch with donald trump jr. and the transcripts that we have of our interview and the judiciary complete i think are very, very important to this investigation. and to answer your underlying question, robert mueller knows what flynn knows because flynn has to be cooperating with robert mueller. if he in any way prevaricates or

distorts or holds back, he is in a world of hurt because there's a high bar for his cooperation. >> do you think there's a big chart somewhere in the special counsel's office with a big chart showing all these characters papadopoulos, and all these characters and the sons and the daughter and the son-in-law and all the rowes they played? you guys probably have one. >> i was just about to say, i feel like as a reporter i need one of those with the string connecting all the dots. it's a lot to keep track of and hard for the american people to keep track of who has done what. >> i try to work on that. >> in the precomputer days whether he i was the u.s. attorney in connecticut and we were doing mob cases we had those charts which linked them almost an organizational chart. >> the guys with the nicknames, the robsters. >> so i have no doubt that somewhere on a computer or on the wall, there is a chart. >> i use today read "the

philadelphia enquirer" every saturday morning to see the mob killings with the crazy names. thank you. up next, president trump is headed to davos to mingle with the global elite. back here at home, he's getting some heat from the labor unions. our next guest says that the president is a con man who has broken the promises he made to the working people. this is "hardball" where the action is. it's a lot easier to make decisions when you know what comes next. if you move your old 401(k) to a fidelity ira, we make sure you're in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money to the instant your new retirement account is funded. ♪ oh and at fidelity, you'll see how all your investments are working together. because when you know where you stand, things are just clearer. ♪ just remember what i said about a little bit o' soul ♪ things are just clearer. on thousands of hotels, cars and things to do. like the fairmont mayakoba for 59% off.

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welcome back to "hardball." later tonight, president trump will depart for the world economic forum in davos, switzerland to hobnob with the elite ooze of the global financial world ostensibly promoting his america first agenda and the message of populism that propelled him to the white house. >> we need a leader that can bring back our jobs, can bring back our manufacturing. today is our independence day. today the american working class is going to strike back finally. i will get a call and he'll say, mr. president, carrier air-conditioner has decided to stay in the united states. and maybe they'll build a new plant and maybe they'll build a new factory and maybe they'll do lots of things. i don't care where they build it as long as it's in our country. right? >> companies are not going to leave the united states anymore without consequences. not going to happen.

>> that last clip was from the presidential transition when trump touted a deal with carrier corporation to keep 1100 jobs in indiana. at the time, my next guest was the president of the union representing the carrier workers. so has president trump lived up to his promises to working americans? for more i'm joined by chuck jones, former president of the united steel work serious local 1999 out in indianapolis. mr. jones, tell us the whole story. what's it been like? what's happened, what's been the effect of the trump presidency economically? >> well, people voted for him based on his commitments and his promises to keep jobs here in this country. i wasn't one of them but a lot of our folks were. and he kept on campaigning that if he was president, carrier wouldn't be going anywhere. as of last week, they have laid off over 600 here in indianapolis, another 700 in huntington, indiana. then he also said one of our other plants rexnord, it wouldn't be going anywhere. it's closed down in entirety,

moved to mexico. donald trump broke the record in one year for 93,000 jobs being outsourced or left this country under his watch. >> let me ask you about his image. he is still out there giving speeches and still getting crowds, still singing the song. how do you put that in contrast to the reality in terms of industrial manufacturing jobs in this country especially in the what we call the rust belt that, part of the country you represent which is all the way from philadelphia all the way across most of the midwest where most of the real jobs have been jeopardized? >> i think for the most part, it took people some longer than others to feel like trump's a liar. he took bernie sanders message and he ran with it. people wanted to believe in something that thing would get better in this country. they bought his message and he's had a year now. and he hadn't delivered at all to the working class people one

i oat ta. >> what do you think is going on with trade? the issue of trade was his hot issue. is there anything changing in "uss trade policy vis-a-vis or or competitors, india, china, brazil? are we competing any better on steel and things like that with the brix countries? >> no, for the most part, we can't compete with the $3 an hour wages they pay the mexican workers and it's even cheapner some other countries. so we can put out a good quality product irregardless of what it is. the companies can be profitable. but you know, with the wages as they are with $3 an hour wages they pay the mexican worker which by the way isn't our enemy, we haven't got a chance. >> >> here in indianapolis, we've suffered job losses, but it's throughout this country. and something's got to be done in order to call to a halt.

trump promised. he needs to deliver. he hadn't done anything. >> in an interview with the "new york times" yesterday did, president richard trump ca offered a blistering critique of trump's first year of office. he said broken propses are bad enough but trump has used his office to actively hurt working people. would you agree with that? would you go as far as trumka? >> yeah, and rich trumka is right on. everything that donald trump's done since he took office is hurting the working class people from his appointments on department of labor to some of his regulations that he's gotten away with. nothing has been positive that i'm aware of. >> thank you so much. chuck jones, a labor guy speaking for the labor men and wix this country. up next, trump goes after the man he calls can crying cluck shumer. seems like he's more interested in scoring cheap political points than actually working out a deal for the d.r.e.a.m.ers. why are you dumping on the guy

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welcome back to "hardball." tonight the future of nearly 700,000 daca recipients remains unclear as trump continues to wage his war against fellow new yorker chuck schumer. it's a battle of the boegs pitting too long time aquaintances against each other. last night trump responded to the news schumer rescinded his offer to build part of the border wall. the president reported crying chuck schumer understands we must have safety for a strong military. today sarah huckabee sanders announced the white house will release a framework for an immigration bill on monday including securing the border, closing legal loopholes ending extended family migration,

canceling the visa lottery and providing a permanent solution on daca. i'm joined by roundtable members, catherine rampell, john brabender and anita kumar from mcclatchy newspapers. what is the strategy confident president to dump personally on chuck schumer after their long talk on friday and to make fun of him and crying chuck, this is a guy who is his negotiating partner. >> it does not suggest they're going to be negotiating good faith. the whole reason supposedly we had yet another stopgap funding measure was so both sides could work out their differences and decide here's how we're going to solve the problems americans care about. by mocking schumer on twitter, by calling him names, by crowing about the fact that democrats have conceded and that they've failed, that does not show good faith. that does not show they're going to come to any sort of agreement.

it's just about scoring points and winning. that's it. >> does he want the fight or the solution? would he rather have the daca left in limbo, keep his hard right happy because he's done nothing on immigration than make a deal? does he want a deal? >> i think he wants a deal. i think he wants the deal on other things. he wantses the wall, the chain migration. >> do you think he'll get his right wing to go along with any deal to allow any person who came in this country illegally to stay here? >> he's actually looking at 1.2 d.r.e.a.m.ers, not just 700,000 people eligible for daca but didn't apply. i called people to get reaction. all these people you would think were opposed were okay with it. they want to see what he gets in return. >> do you trump believes there is a deal out there? he stayed quiet, hibernated the whole weekend at the white house. >> i think the environment has changed. i believe schumer and the democrats are in a much weaker

position. if you look at the quinnipiac poll that came out, the democrats in the senate got more blame for the shutdown than the president or the republicans notice length late tour. >> what poll was that? >> quinnipiac. it's a realistic poll. number one. this is on the heels of the republicans passing tax cuts. schumer has done something that the president, ryan and mcconnell have not been able to do. they will actually have unified is the republicans based on shutdown. >> what's your party position? they want to let the daca people stay here safely or not? >> monday the president's going to say we will negotiate on that as long as we get what we want. there are going to be things such as the wall is going to be critical. something legitimate to build it. things like sanctuary cities will be very, very important to this administration. i think there is a deal that could be made. what's going to be interesting is i had been a believer that schumer doesn't want a deal and say i tried. this president isn't reasonable,

we can't deal. because of the shutdown and schumer looking bad in that, it makes it look really bad if he takes his ball and walks away from the table a second time. >> it's a tough situation. i know there's a fight now between the progressives and the dealmakers who want to cut deals. and trump and schumer is now on the side of the dealmakers. the lead dealmaker. it's got to run. >> the base actually does care a lot about daca. republicans care about daca, too. it's not something that'soli an issue of the far left. almost all americans support it. >> what will they pay? will they allowtom wall to get daca? >> i don't think people care so much about not building is the wall except in more of a symbolic sense. it's not like we don't want to waste money on this. it's fiscally irresponsible. >> give up on family migration. that's a hard one. >> that's a much harder sell. >> i think it's very hard to tell families they can't reunite

here. >> if you're president trump, you want the wall. you want funding and border security. he's going to call it a wall. he's going to get money and call it a wall. >> what about the stuff that's much harder, diversity lottery and the other thing, the familipligration which brings in a lot of minorities through other family members. >> if you look at what the bipartisan senate deal was, they included those things. it was changing categories. it wasn't wiping them out. you'll see some compromise on that. >> do you want to compromise, john? >> i think there should be a compromise. i think you'll see this monday. the republicans say our first thing is national security. are we going to do immigration that protects americans. number two is, are we going to do it in a way that protects the american worker. we know who is here, where they're working. > i'm for that. are we going to have comprehensive immigration coming out of this? you say comprehensive? >> i think there will be some type of comprehensive

legislation. >> if i february 8th? >> that does get done. >> not going to happen. >> if the president says here's what i want and schumer says i'm sorry, we're not building the wall, we're not getting rid of sanctuary cities it, all of a sudden america will say it's the democrats, not the republicans i'm starting to. >> who wins on this issue politically? come november, this time around, who is benefitting? >> i like to think in terms of what gets us the better policy. i hope the policy we get. >> help me here. i agree with you on the policy. have you ever thought the politics of this thing? >> in six months something else will come up and they'll be voting on something else. >> they're not going to vote on anything in six months. >> it's still a hot issue on both sides. it's like abortion rights. it's not going away. the daily beast reports west wing officials have become consumed with a singular objective, keeping president trump away from senate minority leader chuck schumer. they will fear his proclivity to change his tune could be

exploited by schumer and leaders. an adviser to president trump once pointed if he the president had to spend time to spend time with schumer or mcconnell, he would pick schumer. >> they do seem sometimes simpatico. i think it's true trump seems to echo whoever was whispering in his ear. >> what's this cry crying chuck? >> this president as we know is not a politician. i think he truly believed on the negotiations a week ago that he and schumer would come to some agreement. they'll put their arms around each other and leave. he's now second-guessing whether he can deal with schumer. >> look what he did with lindsey graham, all those tweets and criticisms. now they're buddies. they'll get along. i think in a week or two, the president will get over it and negotiate. >> will we have a deal at the end of february? >> on some things, probably not everything. but there is always the

likelihood we could still have yet another shutdown. i don't know that democrats are willing to deal with it. >> that's dysfunctional. it's not functional. >> welcome to america 2018. >> the roundtable is sticking with us. you're watching "hardball." growing up, we were german. we danced in a german dance group. i wore lederhosen. when i first got on ancestry i was really surprised that i wasn't finding all of these germans in my tree. i decided to have my dna tested through ancestry dna. the big surprise was we're not german at all. 52% of my dna comes from scotland and ireland. so, i traded in my lederhosen for a kilt. ancestry has many paths to discovering your story. get started for free at ancestry.com. not in this house. 'cause that's no average family. that's your family. which is why you didn't grab just any cheese. you picked up kraft mozzarella with a touch of philadelphia for lasanyeah! kraft. family greatly.

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stunning upset that sent democrat doug jones to the senate. the alabama state house voted 67-31 largely along party lines to do away with special elections for the state's u.s. senate seats. under the new legislation, the governor woman appoint a replacement to serve till the next statewide election. republicans say the bill would save the state millions of dollars. democrats dubbed the legislation is the anti-dug jones bill that people should be able to vote on a replacement senator as soon as possible. we'll be right back.

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till we can keep that from happening. > yes, john. >> since the shutdown, there was an internal republican report that showed engagement on republican sighs have been up 38% which is usually a big precursor to the generic ballot shrinking. there has been some polls out now with the generic ballot shrinking. >> i see the democrats up by 12. >> there are different polls where it was as low as 4 and 5. there seems to be some movement going on in the generic bat. >> anita. >> president trump heads to the world economic forum and on friday he gets to meet with the president of rwanda. the first african head of state he's going to meet since his disparaging remark at the white house a couple weeks ago. rwanda has been really upset about the remark. >> will he take him down. >> i don't know what's going to happen. >> thank you very much. catherine rampell, john brabender and anita kumar.

two very different visions of africa when we continue. you're watching "hardball." this is frank. sup! this is frank's favorite record. this is frank's dog. and this is frank's record shop. frank knowns northern soul, but how to set up a limited liability company... what's that mean? not so much. so he turned to his friends at legalzoom. yup! they hooked me up. we helped with his llc, contracts, and some other stuff that's part of running a business. so frank can focus on the beat. you hear that?

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let me finish tonight with a tribute to a man who represents what is great in post colonial black africa. and then a man who knows nothing at all about it. hugh masakela is the south african jazz er who just died.

he became known in this country for "grazing in the grass." best known in his country of birth for his opposition to an port hide. the guardian newspaper calls him one of the finest trumpet teres. exiled from his country for 30 years, he was also a powerful singer and songwriter and an angry political voice using music and live performances to an attack the apartheid regime that banished him from his homeland. he joined paul simon on the world tour promoting simon's album "graceland" recorded with black musicians in south africa. even when he returned to the country of his birth under the leadership nelson mandela, he continued to comment fearlessly on political events in south africa and around the world having issued more than 40 albums across his career, his final one was "no borders" in 2016. among his many awards was south

africa's highest award. hugh masakela versus donald trump. two very different visions of africa. let's hope the american president gets his straight on that continent. thanks for being with us. all in with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> general flynn is a wonderful man. i think he's been treated very, very unfairly by the media. >> an nbc news exclusive. >> lock her up. that's right. >> reporter: >> tonight as more high profile interviews with robert mueller come to light, new details about michael flynn's meeting with the fbi. >> lock him up. >> and new questions about when the president knew flynn lied, why it's so crucial. >> flynn lied and they destroyed his life. it's a shame. >> then adam schiff on the republican effort to disrupt the mueller probe. >> let's stop there.