that's a wrap of this hour. i'm alex smith. stay right where you are. >> i don't have the full scope of all the intelligence reports that were produced. or who ordered the unmasking of additional names. what you have read bothers me. and i think it should bother the president himself and his team. >> good morning, welcome to a.m.

joy. travel back with me to just under a year ago. when the word that was on everyone republican oos mind and every block of tv and fox news was unmasking. it all started in late march when nunez, the california congressman leading the russia investigation orchestrated a media spectacle with a press conference on the white house lawn. it was around the same time that donald trump had concocted a bogus story about president obama wiretapping him at trump tower. and that day he provided crucial backup to trump's false claim with the announcement that he had just come from briefing the president on intelligence reports. revealing that members of his campaign and transition team had been incidentally surveilled by u.s. intelligence as they surveilled foreign entities. those trump associates had been victims of unmask iing.

you could be forgiven for not realizing there was nothing remarkable or scandalous about any of this. it's all pretty routine for spy agencies for when they wiretap a foreign suspect pick up any american who happens to be on the other end of the line. only revealing that american's identity if. they can get a warrant prove in the american may have committed a crime. it would be somewhat indicated. it wasn't until a week later we learned from "the new york times" reporting about the real scandal. the night before the press conference, performance, he had

secretly visit ed the white houe where two officials had given him the same documents he had returned to tell trump about the next day. now fortunately, with all learned a valuable lesson when it comes to trusting nunez in the wise words of president bush, fool me once, you can't get fooled again. so much for the wisdom of george w. because for the last two weeks, nunez had us all obsessing over a new word. memo. and what e we would learn from it about the integrity of the fbi's investigation into trump and russia. and on friday, over the objections of the fbi and the justice department, but a i lowed by the speaker of the house and approved by donald trump, we got to see the memo that nunez has had the whole country waiting for. tz from intelligence reports that nunez himself never even read that offer a few cherry picked and details about

intelligence sources used for a warrant request. if anything, the memo could bolster robert mueller case for obstruction and raise concerns about how much fbi dirt they have. for what? congressman schiff offered an answer with this explanation earlier this week. >> the goal is to put out a document that will set a narrative that helps the president. that narrative is the fbi is corrupt. what they are doing is corrupt. the investigation is corrupt. bob mueller is corrupt. bring an end to this investigation. and that is singly destructive. >> joining me now is malcolm nance, na veed jamaly and david

korn. thank you for being here. donald trump is awake and as he often does on the weekends, he's commenting on the news of the day. here's the tweet he sent out this morning. it says this memo totally vindicates trump in probe. but the russian witch hunt goes on and on. their was no collusion and there was no obstruction, the word now used because after one year of lookingenedlessly and finding nothing, collusion is dead. this is an american disgrace. should be an english teacher. ladies first. your thoughts on donald trump's thoughts? >> wow, that's everyone's thoughts right now. he is doing exactly what nunez is doing, which is contributing to the chaos and confusion, two different c words, not the

collusion words. that's the effort of the memo to create so much confusion about the facts that the american public is confused about who is right, who is wrong. it's the classic term of muddying the waters. what's lost in all of this it is that several people closely tie ued to trump have not only pled guilty, talking about flynn and papadopoul papadopoulos. but page has been under investigation since 2013, well before this memo came out and the first fisa warrant was granted. he was under investigation for inappropriate contacts with the russians. poo putin is looking at this opportunity, yes, indeed, as a russian witch hunt. but it is not a witch hunt against donald trump. it's against the american public focused on the midterm elections coming up to continue to sew confusion and make sure the person putin wants in power remains there. >> it was obviously a show for the consumption of fox news writing the a block for him.

we get that. but let me go to david korn on this. the problem with this memo, which was put out to great fanfare is is that rather than proving donald trump's case, as he said this morning there was no collusion, and that donald trump is innocent. it actually proves some interesting things. one of which that at least two of the renewals for fisa warrants to surveil carter page were done during the trump administration. not the obama administration. and of the people in this memo, who signed off on wub one r or more warrants, most of them are fired. james comey signed off. sally yates, who was the acting ag during the trump administration was asked to step down. and rod rosenstein, all are named in this memo to continue surveilling, which means they

had to be continuing to get. intelligence and be productive. another person named in this memo is you, david korn. another one of the things, the claims that are in this memo is that christopher steel, the author of the infamous dossier that has enraged nunez and donald trump supposedly was terminated by the fbi because he talked to you. can you lay out for the audience whether or not that is true? >> this is a good example of the memo exaggerating a piece of information, which causes me and others to suspect every other piece of information in the memo. first off, they cite a piece i whereon wrote on october 31st, 2016, put that aside. what they are trying to do is show that steels was sort of a bad source for the fbi. the fbi turned on him, but still

somehow they used him to get the fisa warrant ob carter page. there was no termination, because there was no official relationship between christopher david steele and the fbi. christopher steel, most of us e know, were writing reports and sending them in and while doing that, he also felt compelled to share his information because he was so worry ied about what he s fighting about possible interactions between the trump campaign and russia. to turn that information over voluntarily and r formally u to the fbi. he did that and cooperated with them and worked with them unofficially, there was talk about paying him at some point, but those payments never happened and never became official. after he spoke to me, the fbi, pointing to this document, said he's talking to the media. i didn't name them, but they could tell it was him. he didn't understand what the

fbi was doing denying investigations in public that e he knew were happening about trump and russia. so he separated himself as well from the fbi. so they are trying to make a big deal out of nothing to discredit steel, the fisa warrant and the investigation. none of that holds. >> you think about one of the other things that's highlighted it's bolded in this memo. the idea that steel was very much an maited by a desire to not see him be president of the united states. he is a foreign national. and a member of mi-6. what do you glean from? if republicans want us to take from he was desperate that donald trump not get elected and was passionate about him not being president, they read that

as discrediting. how do you read that? >>. >> i read it any other way. we would have a person who has a very deep background in foreign intelligence collection. he ran it for our biggest ally and sister agency. if he came back with these concerns with his hair on fire, then we would have to take it very, very, very seriously. he saw many things in his memorandum that made him concerned that the national security of the united states would be compromised. by extension, the national security of the united kingdom would be compromised. and he wanted to ensure that this got to the proper author y authorities to be vetted through other intelligence sources. so that's what i read out of it. the republicans live in an alternate reality. they want to turn everything into a personal attack. they are willing to burn down the national security infrastructure of the united states to do that.

>> and seemingly, their entire gam bet here in this memo is because they are sank moanously upset that carter page, of all people n their mind, was treated unfairly. e we know that carterer page has a history with the fbi having been nicked in 2013 for being targeted for e recruitment by russia. he's a central figure in the defense of trump. this is carter page in october on chris hayes show predicting that the information about the warrant on him would come out. >> in the interest of really getting the truth out there, when the truth comes out when speaker paul ryan says the fisa warrant or the details about the dossier and what happened and all this documents will be

releasted, that's what i'm excited about. the truth will set a lot of people free. >> a lot of people were surprised that paul ryan would go ahead and allow nunez to go on this fishing expedition and release this information. he was not surprised. so carter page wasn't surprised. one of the the things people have said is that democrats might have also overhyped this memo. they might have made it sound like the sky is falling. when you read it, it reads like a goal. or that sort of compelling in terms of harming carter page. you tweeted this. you said if carter page was in any, way, shape or form, the memo cannot put into words how angry this makes me.

what were you talking about there? >> look, let's start with president trump last spring. let's nforget he gave the russians one of the most sensitive operations. so when the white house doesn't have a problem with burn. ing assets, it's hard to imagine nunez would either. what i mean is i don't know what carter page is, but we know as you point out he was involved in the 2013 case that resulted in 2015 in an indictment in jail time for russian spy. he walked free. he then shows up in 2016 in another counterintelligence operation. this is pretty remarkable to show up in two operations and to do so without any indictments, any jail time. perhaps he's either the luckiest or unluckiest man alive and happens to fall into this. the third is is that this wasn't happenstance. and on the chris hayes show that you e clip, you also mentioned he's talked to the fbi.

he may have been sharing information with the government. it he did, trump and this memo may have done what president trump did when he revealed the operations to the russians. he may have just outed potentially another operational asset. even if carter page was not working for the government now being tapped in this investigation and anything or anyone that was speaking to him within that date range should be concerned they were being recorded. so to me, that's hugely disconcerting. thinking am i going to be revealed. that has huge implications. >> even just saying the dates of when we begin and conduct wiretaps have plenty of information to give to our adversaries. keep in mind as you're thinking about all of this, the author of

this infamous memo did not himself review the underlying material. he didn't even do it himself. he sent tray gowdy and let him do it. he was on his way out. he was not running tr e reelection. he read it. nunez didn't even read the material. think about that for a minute and then used it to create this memo. thank you very much. up next, the media world and twitter were obsessing about the memo and while they were doing that, trump cia director was meeting with russian spies. stay with us. you know what's awesome? gig-speed internet.

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we were all distracted by the memo by nunez. a member of the trump administration was actually meeting with russia's two top spies rugt here in the united states. the "washington post" reported on wednesday that cia director mike pompeo met last week with the heads of the intelligence agenci agencies. who traveled to washington for what the post called ab unusual visit. the port say thas talked about counterterrorism and a third russian spy sheaf chief was also in washington, but it remains unclear whether they met. joining me is the panel. your take on while donald trump is refusing to implement

sanctions. they said they don't need to do it. and at the moment, they are decloining the issue of sanctions. while the guardian and buzz feed are reporting that a name and shame list that was supposed to be a part of this whole sanctions regime, a list of o la garks was by a top official was compiled by sagt i ises but cancelled by a senior administration official who was consulted on the list. it was replaced by a list of rich russians apparently copied straight from the magazine ranking. so scotching the proper list, replacing it with a cut and paste from forbes, not implementing sanctions, meeting with russian spies. what does all that say to you? >> to say the least, it means that this administration is not taking sanctions seriously.

let's dig beneath that and what that really means. it means they are sending a signal to moscow that we're really welcoming you with open arms. we're really locking for a relationship here because there's something underlying this special repore that our president has with you. so when we see someone like the head of the svr visiting washington, d.c., meeting with our cia director, when that individual himself is under sanction, what we're say to russia is, look, we have to play this game, but we're playing a game with you. and you're welcome here. i can tell you his his torically what's happened in the past with individual who is are heads of russian intelligence service. the cia director or fbi director will either travel to moscow or to a neutral location and will have this necessary discussion.

that's okay. the heads of intelligence services meeting discussing information, beautiful. the signal that's being sent here is clearly that we're buddies. nothing is wrong. i'm okay. you're okay. keep up the good work. >> malcolm, your hair must be on fire. we have been talking for a year now. it's been a year and a half we have been drug taug about the direct interference in the election. and now they are meeting with russia's top spies who are supposed to be under sanction. what is this about? >> 17 months, if you want to be accurate. this week my hair was on fire. what her looking at now is the beginning of the next scandal. the directors of the cia, the director of national intelligence just do not decide out of the clear blue sky to sit down and meet with the head of the fsb, the the svr and have the head of military intelligence in the country all

three of whom did the hacking against the united states. they formulated and executed for vladimir putin. that being said at some point there was a communication whether it was direct or indirect between the office of donald trump and vladimir putin and they said let's get together for a counterterrorism conference. let's do it in washington. and we're all buddies here. we're on the same team, no matter what everybody else thinks. and donald trump personally authorized this meeting in the united states. there's no question that's what happened. the key part here is why does he keep doing that? what's the underlying reason h donald trump keeps reaching his u hand out to moscow and seems to have no problem with dealing with their intelligence agencies is and the people that attack this country. is that everything should go forward or all part of a

long-term plan between moscow and donald trump to keep these relations open and get the sanctions lifted. this needs to be investigated. you don't bring the top three spy masters of moscow to the united states without donald trump personally ordering his entire staff to do it. >> when you talk about this needs to be investigated, that brings up congress. this really joke of a list, just copying and paesing from forbes rather than the proper list that's supposed to relate directly to sanctions is a slap in the face to congress. it's a humiliation. refusing to im plemt the sanctions, which passed this law. chuck schumer has already said he's demanding to know. he wants an explanation as to how the head of moscow's foreign intelligence was allowed to enter the united states besides

there being sanctions ob him. at what point do you expect republicans in congress who have the power to order these investigations to finally wake up and realize they themselves are being humiliated by this white house on behalf of moscow. >> simply at this rate, not until after they are voted out. i don't think they will ever. it's just stupid. the reality is that what can russia really help us with counterterrorism. nost reason. when it comes to russia, after everything they have done they need to send a clear message. talking about the elections, we can talk about cyber security and voting machines. the reality is the best defense against this is to send a clear message to russia that it is not in their best interest to interfere with their elections. this suspect doing that. this is saying don't sweat it, come on over. it's a complete 180 here.

>> we are out of time. it's extra order their to think the president who invited the foreign minister into the oval office right away he doesn't seem to be afraid of the optics of his closeness to russia. >> the rugs released the information on this meeting. >> it's extraordinary. the panel will be back, thank you. coming up, the man who put nunez in a position of power. that's next. today, smart planning is helping the new new york rise higher than ever. as the world leader in unmanned aerial systems, we're attracting the world's best talent to central new york. and turning the airport

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what this memo is is congress doing its job in conduct iing oversight over a unique law fisa. and if mistakes were made and if individuals did something wrong, then it is our job as the legislative branch of government to conduct oversight if abuses were made. >> oversight. the nunez memo appears to have turned paul ryan and republicans into sudden civil libertarians. they have left to the defense of former campaign aid carter page. he was the doj's request for warrants to wiretap page that spawned the memo. without the fate of team trump on the line, house republicans rarely sounded alarmed about the power of the state to surveil american citizens. >> what would the american people say if we hamper our law

enforcement from protecting them? what would people of this country say if if we have another building blow up and the fbi couldn't look at even an e-mail address. >> you defeat this underlying bill, we go back to those days where we are flying blind on protecting our country from terrorism. >> as threats increase, now is not the time to be weakening national security. >> joining me is jill winebanks, michael steel, and frank is back with me. michael steel, when did paul ryan and nunez become so concerned. they insisted it be rethords with no changes and they are afraid of unmasking and all of the threats to civil liberties they are in. your thoughts? >> this all changed when donald trump became president. it was under investigation by the fbi. this is not about the civil liberties of the united states.

the people of the united states. this is about protecting the civil liberties of one man. that's president trump. so let's call it what it is. this is not -- this memo was not about congressional oversight. it was anything but congressional oversight because consider this. the congressional oversight should have been taking place back in september, october, november, december of last year. all of these were being executed in 2016 and 201. the fact of the matter is is the congressional oversight was lacking here. and even trey gowdy acknowledged that he's the one who read the underlying documents so the overarching effort with this

memo to weaken the mueller investigation was a missed opportunity in congressional oversight. >> what about a little oversight on refusing to implement the sanctions that congress passed? jill, paul ryan hinted that he gave could have real motivation is behind the release of this memo. what he thinks should happen to the fbi. let's get it all out. cleanse the organization, said ryan. your thoughts? >> i don't even have any idea what he could have possibly meant by that. but following up on what michael just said. if this was actually about oversight or transparency, then the congress would have released the democratic rebuttal to this misleading riddled with omissions memo that was put

together by nunes in collusion with the white house. it can't be about oversight or transparency or cleansing. it's a document that's extremely misleading and should be not allowed to ever happen again. >> indeed. cnbc is reporting that the house intelligence e committee voted against release iing the democr' response to the memo, even as they voted to release the nunes memo. now after being criticized. we'll release the democratic memo as well. the democrats want to scrub it of anything that could harm national security first or give up or sources or methods. the silliness of the memo is is underscored by what republicans are doing with it. the ones who aren't calling for the firing or jailing of robert mueller are doing things like

this. this is andy bigs. he puts out this photo with a release the memo. with himself looking like the mayor of go tham city. today the memo was released and now all americans have the same access as members of congress had. he released a statement. some of the same people named in the memo are still employed by our government or collecting taxpayer funded pensions. that's a great injustice. in light of the evidence, i'm renewing my call for mueller to resign. if he doesn't have that, he should be fired. your thoughts ob that extraordinary statement and photo. >> so we're seeing huge gaps in. logic here. there's been no formal tie established between the attack on the carter page wiretap and the special counsel

investigation. the link isn't there. so let's do some predictive analysis. other calls to fire the special counsel. i'm smelling tier. there's something about this investigation and the work, but even go backwards. it's top secret. this isn't being talked about a lot. the average fisa affidavit, the underlying document that the memo is about is classified at the secret level. this memo is top secret. which means derived from ts. what is ts information? it's the most sensitive techniques that another

government agency, not the fbi, utilizes. what does that tell us on carter page? that there was signals intelligence inside that affidavit. that signals intelligence is most often used against a foreign intelligence service. it shows an intercepted incidentally or deliberately foreign intelligence services or governments talking about page. that's generating the fear we see in the people we hear calling for the dismissal of robert mueller. >> what does that tell you it could be? there's speculation when carter page was nicked by the fbi in 2013 that he was picked up that russians were trying to recruit that maybe he was turned. now you work for us.

it's possible they have the intercept of a government official or intelligence officer speaking with carter page. with damning information about campaign members or the president himself. that's what people should be focused on. >> michael steel, for a republican member of congress to brag that now all of the american people have this information, that seems shocking to me when the fbi was pleading with him not to do this. the justice department pleading not to do this. the only person who read the intelligence is quitting and has come out and supported trey gowdy. >> the infection of donald trump is complete. when you look at the polls with respect to the fbi, 49% of

republicans now think the fbi is somehow a danger or a hindrance. it's unprecedented to see the party that has stood for law and order and who was quite honestly and if we have to break this down, just go back about a year or two ago when black lives matter was raising concerns about federal investigation of state police actions involving african-americans and the lack of response to that. it was these same republicans who came running to the defense of the fbi and how dare you criticize these hard working men and women who protect the begty of our communities and constitution. now think that the fbi is a load of crap. so you can't have it both ways. this is nothing more than a political opportunity that's being seized on to protect the president who at the end of the day doesn't give a damn about the republicans getting in front

of microphones and carrying his water for him. he will flip on them like a dime. they should understand that when they immediate the fbi, the fbi may not be there for them. >> jim comeys was a hero talking about the ferguson effect. >> absolutely. all of these guys. and mueller, we know what they said about mueller. they were the one advocating for his appointment for special counsel. >> very quickly, your thoughts on the fact that nunes moved on from his memo that would change the world. the state department is next. he will next release information perhaps gleaned from former intelligence going after the department of state. your thoughts. >> my first thought is that this memo was a complete dud. it overpromised and underdelivered. frank mentioned a gap between that and the mueller investigation. i'd say there's a gap between the promises they made to show corruption and the department of

justice. and the actual amount they delivered. it shows nothing there that shows any corruption. it's a ridiculous thing. i would open hope the reaction would make them stop trying. >> or the fear that they are releasing what could be sensitive information, sources and methods to harm national security. at some point make this honor kick in and stop trying. we'll be back in the next hour. michael steel. >> i'm good. >> excellent. >> coming up, don jr.'s twitter problem. and carson's family affair. more after the break. why create something this extravagant? or make a back seat that feels nothing like a back seat? why give it every feature you could want, along with a few you didn't know you needed?

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we care about everybody. >> sitting in the audience for trump's first state of the union address was a face paul ryan is getting real familiar with, the iron stash, known as randy brash, challenging ryan for his seat in the first congressional district. he came as a guest of wisconsin congressman. he joins me now. thank you for being here, sir. how did you enjoy the state of the union? give us your 30-second review? >> always a pleasure to be with you, joy. >> thanks. >> it was pretty much what i expected. it was donald trump taking credit for other people's work. he was throwing out some numbers that were coming from president barack obama's time. it was kind of sad. a lot of things. luckily, he can read off the te

telepromptor. you tweeted out a partial list of job killing regulations that donald trump has eliminated. you had your own hashtag, ironsotu. clean water rule and clean power plan and transgender bathroom protection. a lot of those things have to do with the cleanliness of the air and water. in the district where you are running for congress, do you think the average voter knows those things are happening or cares? >> if they knew more, they would care. >> you have a tough challenge. paul ryan has won with pretty strong margins. last time, he beat a guy,

65-30.i65-30 65-30.2. chelsea handler tweeted out supporting you. paul ryan got $500,000 from the koch brothers the day after tax reform passed. can that celebrity support, the fame you have gotten, your twitter presence, overcome paul ryan's margins, which suggests to me that district is very republican? >> it is actually 30/30 as far as democrat/republican and 40% independent. he has one. he has never had to face a race. he has never had to face what we are bringing to him. the first district need a listener, not the speaker, specially with what's going on in washington, d.c. he is not speaking on behalf of congress at the house of representatives. he is speaking on behalf of the president of the united states. >> paul ryan for a lot of people inexplicabl inexplicably completely supported devin nunez's release

of this moemo. what do you make of paul ryan and his relationship with donald trump? why do you suppose he is doing the things he is doing to help donald trump and devin nunez? >> well, it seems to be he wants to go after social security and medicaid. nobody has done more to attack those fantastic social programs. he has already shown us with the tax scam. it is about rewarding those people he has become close with in d.c. it is not hard working people like me. it is billionaires and special interests and lobbyists. >> how are you doing your fundraising? how are you raising money? >> the last quarter, we have over 100,000 vidcon trindividua

contributions. we sfattated we are not going t take money from wall street. >> do you think that paul ryan cares more about ending social programs than he does about national security? >> it would appear so. who would think that the republicans, those in charge, would go after the top levels of the fbi and still talk about wanting to keep us safe from terrorists? no doubt, you can't attack the fbi. >> good luck to you, iron stash. appreciate it. >> it was a pleasure, joy. >> have a great weekend! . t more after the break. nuh uh. yeah. ahhhhh. mm-mm. oh. yeah.

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more than happy to cooperate with everyone. i want the truth to get out there. that's why i released it today. they are trying to drip a little today and a little bit then. here it is. i am more than happy to be transparent and cooperate with everyone. >> as far as you know, as far as this incident, this is all of it. this is everything. >> this is everything. good morning. welcome back to "a.m. joy." this week while republicans hyped the memo, this is what was happening in the russia

investigation. "the new york times" reported that special counsel, robert mueller, has zeroed in on team trump's attempts to spin reports of the infamous meeting at trump tower attempted by trump's son, son-in-law and campaign manager and several russians who had offered don jr. dirt on hillary clinton. trump jr.'s response was, if it is what you say, i love it. when the meeting was revealed last july, the president, himself, drafted a statement claiming the meeting was about adoption policy. trump's role in that station is one of about a dozen subjects that special prosecutor, robert mueller, wants to question about as part of his obstruction probe. meanwhile, trump's former legal team spokesman is reportedly planning to tell mueller about another white house conversation, when communications director, hope hicks, said that junior's e-mails about the trump tower

meeting would never get out. they did get out courtesy of junior's own twitter account. he apparently shares his father's penchant for not knowing when to stop tweeting. he offered this. apparently, the press only likes their information "leaked" from unverified sources rather than released openly. he also tweeted that former and spectacular flamed-out white house director, anthony scaramucci nailed it with his take that the nunez memo proves trump's baseless claim that president barack obama wiretapped him during the election. >> joining me, tara waudel and nick smith and jill winebanks. thank you all for being here.

there is a famous passage, tara, in the book "fire and fury" in which steve bannon sort of goes at hope hicks and tries to say she needs to stop trying to interfere and be communications director. there is an article in the air force one meeting and it refers to an excerpt and says, according to michael wolf's book, bannon lost his temper with hicks telling her he should get a lawyer, saying you are at dumb as a stone. give us a little insight into this team. none of these people are experts. they don't listen to their lawyers. mark coralo, who has been involved before, is like, i'm out of here. i quit. hope hicks is saying, the e-mails that don junior sent will never get out. >> trump likes yes people.

the problem is, the type of yes people he is surrounded by are amateurs, mercenaries, and criminals. that's basically what his team is comprised of. what they are used to doing is stepping in, in a private business environment and cleaning up behind donald trump at any cost. in a private business environment, that's okay. when you are president of the united states and you are now subject to all kind of constitutional laws and requirements, they have not realized that this is a very different playing field for them. so they are basically taking the same kind of practices, yesing donald trump, indulging him, cleaning up behind his lack of ethics and lawlessness. they are trying to do that at this level. what you are seeing is that imploding. you can't do that at this level. >> what's extraordinary about it is that mark coralo, i don't

believe he is a lawyer himself. he has been involved in these kind of issues before. he knew enough to say, wait a minute. if i'm on a conference call and somebody who is part of a potential cover-up, is trying to rewrite the reason for this not very smart trump tower meeting with russians. they are trying to rewrite it and say, oh, no, no, no, the e-mails will never get out. he knew enough to know that was potential obstruction. >> he knew enough to write down the contemporaneous memo at the same time to make notes of what was said. if you get into a swearing contest between him and hope hicks, who are you going to believe? the guy who wrote everything down as it happened or hope hicks who really is incompetent, has no right being in the job she is in, certainly shouldn't be the communications director for the white house and is only a couple of years out of college. her claim to fame is being the spokesperson for ivanka trump. >> would that ignorance be a

defense? there was an article that said two lawyers who have clients wrapped up in some way in the russia probe have said that they think mueller could indict trump. part of what this hinges on is this question of obstruction. he dictated the cover story for this meeting. could trump be indicted? would ignorance be a defense for him or people like hope hicks? >> let me say. if it is a defense that he is willing to put out, it discall phis h disqualifies him from the presidency. you can't be that ignorant and still be the president of the united states. i also don't think it would work as a legal defense. it should be ground for impeachment. how ignorant could he possibly be of the law. it is obvious if mark coralo said, this is obstruction, don't

you think everyone else on the plane who was involved in drafting this and who knew the truth about what the meeting was about is guilty of obstruction. they are. that's a clear case of obstruction there. it reminds me really of the john dean assignment during watergate by president nixon. he said i have thoroughly investigated everything and no one in the white house is involved in this burglary. dean had the sense not to go forward and write that. the nunez memo and this false report of what the meeting was about satisfied that kind of memo writing. it's wrong. >> john dean said the people involved are willing to throw the fbi under the best.

>> how difficult is his task right now? >> his job as white house counsel is extremely difficult, close to impossible. i certainly wouldn't want that job. this situation is a lot worse, a lot more than that. this was espionage conducted by the russians. knicks on wasn't using the kgb to try to win elections. this is a dangerous situation. if we don't get on top of it, we send a message that our country is vulnerable to foreign infiltration and subversion.

next time it could be some other country or russia supporting the democrats to win an election. this is not a partisan issue. it doesn't matter where they get their evidence from a snitch or a political campaign or whatever. if we don't get our act together, involved in this nonsense like the nunez memo, we would be speaking russian by now. >> i go back to the psychology of the way the trump organization operates, would devin nunez, who seems to be a complete lackey to the white house, probably the chief among them. there are other people that are absolutely loyal to donald

trump. would devin nunez and don jr. be undertaking these activities without telling donald trump what they are doing? >> there is no way that donald trump does not know what's happening. while he may not have been the most hand-on manager there is, the whole structure that he creates is one in which people are aiming to please him? that is a structure he creates. the notion that chris christie didn't know this was happening is utterly ridiculous. what he created too was a structure where people were doing all these things for the express purpose of pleasing him. the same thing with donald trump. that's why devin nunez has been caught running over there all the time, spending so much time there. he is trying to also curry favor with donald trump. that's why all of his pundits who support him get on tv and perform simply for donald trump. so the notion that he would somehow not know this when the

entire structure around him is based on pleasing him. the fact that paul ryan and all of these people sat around the table and praised him in some sort of soviet era propaganda mechanism was stunning. that is particularly telling. donald trump has been able to replicate the exact structure that he had at the trump organization in the white house and that's what is so dangerous. we have a system of checks and balances for a reason. we don't have the actual checks in that structure right now. >> we have one check. it is rod rosenstein, nick. this is what adam schiff who is the ranking member on house intelligence. the speaker of the house is missing. he has literally given himself over to donald trump. this is what adam schiff said was the purpose and the underlying purpose of these activities newing the nunez memo. this is adam schiff.

>> the president is looking for a reason to fire bob mueller. the president is looking for a reason to fire rod rosenstein. the bigger concern i have is for rod rosenstein. this has been true for me for some time. why rod rosenstein and not bob mueller? the white house knows he would face a firestorm if it fired bob mueller. what's more effective is to fire bob mueller's bob. why is that more effective? rob rosenstein decides the scope above mueller's investigation. >> do you worry that the next step is for donald trump to fire rod rosenstein? >> it is working up to that. it is certainly something that donald trump wants to do. you have to understand what is going on right now. all of donald trump's top aids are being called in to testify or for interviews. they are being asked questions

by michael flynn. all of that information through a joint group shows that they are talking when they shouldn't be talking. the drumbeat keeps pounding away. donald trump knows what michael flynn knows and he is not telling his lawyers and donald trump being the warrior and chief is frying to coordinate the entire obstruction of is this investigation. the only way he can undercut the investigation is to get rid of the people that are doing it. one key piece of that is rod rosenstein. >> richard painter, what happens if donald trump does it? we haven't seen republicans react thus far to anything? what if he fires rosenstein, what do you see happening? >> well, i would want to see the united states house of representatives and senate judiciary committees meet and begin hearings on obstruction of justice. we have had a consistent pattern of obstruction of justice. they have an obligation to investigate just as they did in

the next senate era. any person that takes rod rosenstein's job or tries to tell bob mueller what he can and cannot investigate might very well themselves be engaged in obstruction of justice. i don't think someone like rachel brand or the other people in the justice department or political appointees want to get themselves in a position obstructing justice. it is hard to find a lackey to do that for president trump. if he find such a person, that person is going to need to be investigated. that is not the role of lawyers to obstruct justice. the president has no business in asking rod rosenstein to argue on my team. there is the american team and putin's team. we need to get to the bottom of who coordinated and lied about their contacts with the russians. that's bob mueller's job and anybody in the justice department that fries tries to

in his way. he is going to be in a heap of trouble. all the people that have gotten or extended warrants on carter page have been fired or asked to step down and will be gone. the only one left is rod rosenstein. who is going to stop donald trump if he does it or if he refuses to meet with bob mueller. we have seen this president break every norm. do you see any evidence that anyone will stop him if he fires rod rosenstein and tries to put rude rudy giuliani in his place or some other lackey? >> i have seen no evidence that anyone in congress is willing to tell truth to power or stand up to the illegal acts of this president. it is an appalling situation. i think that everything we've seen suggests that we are in jeopardy here. the one thing that will happen, i hope, and predict, is that people will start to rise up. move on and indivisible have

planned a march if mueller is fired. they have now expanded that to if rod rosenstein is fired. if he is gone, people will take to the streets and let enter congressmen and their senators know that this is not acceptable. >> tara, nick, jill, thank you all. coming up, trump corruption spreads. stay here.

amid all the memo madness, we can't forget the everyday insanity of the trump administration, including the latest examples of possible ethics violation. "the washington post" reported that housing secretary, ben carson, may have violated ethics rules by having his son help organize a listening tour in baltimore last summer. department lawyers warned that ben carson jr.'s role and his invitation to people with whom he had potential business dealings could violate federal ethics rules. joining me jen curran and richard painter. what is going on with dr. carson? his family is too involved with hud. he has been warned about ethics violations. is this the fish stinks from the head? they are getting the signal from donald trump that making money in office is something the

president is doing and we can do it too. >> you have a number of people in this administration who aren't used to government service. they are successful business people. this is the first time we have seen an administration like that. we didn't pull from the previous administration. having said that, there is no excuse for some of the things ha have gone on here. i fully disagreed with steve mnuchin using the plane for personal use. this is a spokesmsomething you bang your head into a brick wall. i don't think what he has done is egregious. i think ben carson was rightfully there. if barack obama had had a son and went on a listening tour in the community, democrats would have praised him. we have someone who lives in the

community and knows it. >> i don't know about that. >> i think if he had a book like trayvon martin, the right went mad. i think if michelle obama had been -- look at the way that chelsea clinton is vilified if she walks outside and goes across the street. i don't think republicans would have abided a member of the obama family enriching themselves or making money on government contracts. >> imagine democrats if it had been in the same situation in doctor carson's case. they would have applauded the son for being there. >> let me ask you in. you are a republican as well. would republicans have sat still for members of the obama administration personally making money off of government contracts as a result of their family member's service? >> i would hope this wouldn't be a republican or democrat thing. we should not tolerate nepotism and profiteering off our

government. president trump is doing it, has his family in the white house running our middle eat policy. we have our cabinet members with conflicts of interest. if they can do it, why can't ben carson do it? what's different about him. that's the mentality of this administration. it is nepotism. we do not have this in the bush administration or the obama administration. in the clinton administration, it was just first lady was very much involved in policy. that is different. this is unprecedented, bringing in the extended family to run our government. ben carson is the small guy here compared with what's going on in the white house. >> look, i athink allowing ben carson's son to be president of an event is not having him run the entire housing and urban

development department. he didn't need to bring folks to the listening tour for them to know that he was ben carson's son. the guy's name is ben carson jr. i think people know who his father is in the community. to say that he was getting contracts because of who his father was is a bit of a stretch. >> we send election monitors to countries where whole families run the government. let's talk about the tone. by the way, ben carson's defense, the bible. >> this week, my family and i have been under attack by the media questioning our integrity and ethics. i have openly asked for an independent investigation to put to rest these unfounded biases. he quotes exodus 14:14, which is the bible quote that says the lord will fight for you. donald trump has made it clear it was a family business, which was founded upon when bill clinton had the first lady of the united states attending health care policy. donald trump spent 124 days at

trump branded properties. he spent 94 days at golf properties. there have been more than 40 instances of special interest groups holding events at trump properties since his inauguration, 11 foreign governments, paid trump-owned entities during the president's first year in office. at least six foreign government officials have made appearances at trump properties and political groups have spend more than $1.2 million at his properties. this cannot be acceptable to any republican. >> look, there were instances during his campaign where he was serving the trump water and the trump steaks and the american people got to go to the polls and make that decision. >> do you think it is ethical in your mind for donald trump to operate the presidency as a family business and profit? >> he has set up many safeguards a few days before he took

office. he said he was turning his business over to his sons and appointing an ethics adviser. that is what is required under the emoluments clause. >> is all that good enough for you, richard painter, what donald trump has done, including turning his business over to his sons who are tweeting about politics every day? >> the emoluments klaclause doet say anything about an ethics clause or turning the business over to your sons and having them be your bagman. if you have a position of trust with the united states government, you may not take profits or benefits from dealings with foreign countries. it is unconstitutional. you cannot do that without the consent of congress. he could have gone to the republican congress and got consent to take his profits and benefits from dealings with the

russians or whatever it is. he didn't want to. he didn't want to show them the tax returns. this is not a democrat or republican thing. donald trump was greasing the skids in new york, giving money to democrats when i was strongly supporting corruption. do we want an honest government or a corrupt government? right now, we are tolerating corruption and russian subversion and interference in our elections. all we are doing is attacking our fbi and law enforcement and ethics. it is wrong. this is not about being a republican or democrat. this is about being an american. >> i will let you respond. donald trump recently addressed at the rnc meeting. even the republican party is holding events at donald trump's hotel. they are paying him. you just had the director of the cdc, center for disease control, have to step down after reports she bought tobacco shares while in office. there is a stench of corruption on this administration.

you cannot disagree with that. >> he is doing everything within the law. if you look at the emoluments clause, it says he must have the consent of congress. if congress believes he is doing something wrong, congress can deal with it. the fact that more than 100 congress members on the democratic side haven't come up and protested that or put that to a vote on the floor, tells me how disorganized the democratic party is. if this were a priority for them, they would do that. >> the democrats can't bring this to the floor. paul ryan won't lift a finger even when trump won't implement sanctions dual passed overwhelming by congress. they won't oversee him. >> excuse me. >> to go back to richard's point, it is in the constitution. how this should be dealt with if congress disagrees with it, it is up to the checks and balances of this system.

it is for the legislative branch to check this president. there is nothing he is doing here to suggest that senator bob corker tennessee is holding an event at the trump hotel and, therefore, is going to get something out of president trump. >> we got a lot of money out of that tax break. everybody is making money. there is a lot of love for that tax cut. everybody is making money. we'll continue this debate another time. they are all making money together. jen k jen and richard, appreciate you very much. greatest reason to watch the commercials this sunday? you might be in one.

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this has been his mission, to protect the white house and throw up distractions. he us a proxy for the white house. you can't run a cred abible investigation that way. >> nancy pelosi calling for nunez to be removed. trump and republicans continue to dig themselves deeper into the hole and an important impression remains, can democrat capitalize on the chaos in the upcoming elections. joining knee now, howard dean, dnc chairman or as we like to call him, hodo. what can the democrats do with

this? this was her on monday. >> every single day that we been here, it is one of the questions that you ask over and over and over again. we spend more time on that than any other topic despite the fact that time and time again, poll after poll, says that frankly, no one cares about this issue. it is certainly not the thing that keeps people up at night. >> the issue is not so much colluding with russia. that's bad and serious. the one the american people care about is honesty. devin nunez is dishonest. the president is dishonest. devin nunez has compromised american intelligence. whatever you think of john mccain, nobody can deny his

patriotism. i think that the real issue is, can you trust the republicans to do anything? the answer is, no. there are various polls showing how the democrats are doing. the poll is closer than most. it is 41% for democrats, 37% for republicans. it is the same for republicans that are for donald trump. can democrats keep this momentum going and result in democrats taking back at least the house? >> the answer is yes. >> i think they have a strong opportunity to take back the house. >> i can't see you guys. i can't tell who the question is directed at. you have to ask me. >> it is like you are on the radio. >> that's right. >> tara, go first. >> my turn, hodo. >> joy, as you know, i represent a congressional candidate, linda weber, who is running in new

jersey's seventh district. that is one of the 23 targeted districts that has been on the show. yes, i think there is a huge opportunity. i know there is a huge opportunity for democrats. we have to get it right. it only exists if we get it right. we have a lot of women running. what is shown is that voters are more comfortable and trust women candidates far more than they do male candidates. a huge jump on the republican side being able to vote for women. >> that normally doesn't happen. >> that's the environment we are in. we have to get the messaging

right and hammer home the corruption. not just corruption but what does that mean for the average person what impact does it have on their pocketbooks. we have to do a good job bringing those together. we can't follow donald trump's every move. we have to be careful we don't jump on every single thing he does unless we are doing it in the context of our message. >> in guy is not a woman. he is running against paul ryan, howard dean. we had randy brice on in the last hour. he has a very straightforward message. paul ryan is subborning the corruption and doesn't care about your normal life. that is not one of the targeted

23 races. is it in this environment a possibility that democrats could pick up some of these seats. devin nunez's seat is on the list. should democrats be thinking in that expansive way? >> it is actually one of the 70 targeted races of swing left. he is down by five. that's the right message. both of this discussion about corruption and about not caring about people like us, that is the key message. >> we also had candidates that look like the democratic party. we haven't had enough of that. we had candidates of color and

muslims. we the 11 out of 15 candidates that were running were women. this is what the democratic party bases. they are almost all young, under 40. many of them are under 35. that is the key to this election. that's why i think we are going to win. i think we are going to take back the house and a good shot at taking back the senate. young people are so mobilized and angry about so many things that this corrupt republican party has done from climate change to tax policies that helped the billionaires and didn't help middle class people. i think they are going to come out in regard numbers as they did for barack obama in 2008. >> let's take a look at somebody who is also young but in terms of last name is not unfamiliar and is white and a man. the democrats decided this was the face they wanted to show as their response to the state of the up yunion. this is joe kennedy iii. take a look. >> they are turning american life into a zero some game.

for one to win, another must lose. so here is the dem -- the answer to democrats offer tonight. we choose both. >> we had maxine waters responding. that's what democrats need to do more. we are the party of diversity. we have white folks, black folks, muslims and immigrants as howard dean says. we need to reflect the american public and the cun tountry. >> thank you very much, howard dean and tara smith. up next, the last laugh on

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shh-h-h-h! this new day. looks nothing like yesterday. roads nowhere to be found. and it's exactly what you're looking for. you remember devin nunez as the guy that already had to recuse himself for lying to

protect the white house. he hasn't even seen all the intelligence he based the memo on. this so-called memo of nunez' is more like a fun little fan fiction he wrote in his spare time. >> comi >> comedy is having a moment under the trump presidency. joining me now is my very funny panel, dean obadala, and oren lamaya and happens to be my brother and this has been an interesting week. devin nunez started a thing. i liken it to the box. this i my box. you don't want me to open the box. the opposition doesn't want me to open the box.

i have something in this box. this box is very important. it is going to change the world and television. open the box. what's in the box? >> there is nothing in the box. >> nothing in the box? >> what? >> nothing in the box. >> #openthebox. this is what we have been through alweek. >> that was exciting. >> it was exciting but was it worthwhile? >> it reminded us that devin nunez is a tool of donald trump. secondly, it reminded us that carter page had to work with the russians before donald trump hired him. donald trump didn't vet anyone. only for that. you can see right now on twitter that the right is so angry that yo memo jokes are eclipsing what they want to talk about. whenever we piss off a trump supporter, an angel gets their wings. >> it really is bothering the right. >> yo memo bomb so bad, hawaii

sent out an alert. yo memo is so thin, donald trump combed it over. and yo memo is so poor, speaker ryan wants to take memo is so p takes away its food stamps. it's a serious issue ripe for comedy. >> it's something we have to be careful with. when comedy has the stage, whether it's athletes or activists, there's a chance for people to get inspired as opposed to just laugh at what's happening. #releasethememo. when our politics have boiled down to hashtags versus boss hog goes crazy in the white house, i would rather encourage people to get out. what jimmy kimmel is doing, when you're waiting for the punch line, when a comedian has the stage, and then actually takes that moment to make a poignant message.

i think that we just have to be careful that while we're laughing, we're not mistaking the fact that these are very serious, serious subjects. >> to that point, let's play a little bit of jimmy kimmel. he had a debate on daca on his show. this is jimmy kimmel. >> michael is being deployed soon overseas, which leaves his fiance and his daughter behind, which means his fiance could be sent back to mexico while he's overseas. so do you think a man who is serving this country, who is an active member of the military, do you think that he should be treated like this? >> first off, the little girl cannot be deported. i think she should be deported. she needs to go back to her own country and work on fixing her own country. >> oh, my god. i want to get you in here, you too use comedy as part of your mission, you guys use comedy to put forth these serious issues. it illustrated something that to a lot of people was shocking, the response of that guy to the

daca recipient. can comedy do more than just make us laugh at this absurdity? >> for me, what's really important is, with the comedy and the messaging, to be able to say to somebody here is a call to action you can do. so many people hear the message. i don't want to be some kind of anger fluffer that gets people all riled up and lived them going, what do i do now? for me i feel like if you're going to talk about the issues with your comedy, taking that next step to say here is how you can get involved, here is people you can go to to make change, it's huge. i don't even understand at this point, how, when you literally have been given an express pass to corruption, and you can edit the memo any way you want, get the president to say, yes, release it, and i still can't convince people? stop jumping off the cliff of n

indiai incompetency. >> i have a box with a graphic on it. >> joy, you have to be careful with open the box, with reproductive rights. >> good point. >> we talked about before, jimmy kimmel was doing more to put a face on daca recipients and dreamers than the democratic party. i've had members on my show who say, we think we know what daca recipients look like, and they don't. there is jimmy kimmel doing that for america. on c.h.i.p. he was great, getting ready of the idea of destroying aca. jimmy kimmel, a comedian, was making headlines when democrats were not. >> and pointing out the fact, the piece that he had, the monologue, where every -- every arm of government that's supposed to be helping us is failing right now. and that's a sobering thought,

you know what i mean? when paul ryan is not willing to step in and do his job, now that we've seen this white house is so corrupt and so feckless and so inept and not very bright. they put it all into one box. everything that we would not want in the executive arm right now. and then you see that paul ryan has taken a step back and abdicated his responsibilities, and congress isn't doing their job. yeah, it's important that people are, you know -- comedians are taking the time to break that down. even when you're waiting for a punch line and one is not coming, at least it's coming from a voice you've been able to relate to on a laughing level. >> at the same time, there is -- it's fraught as well, right, kathy griffin was just on the cover of "the hollywood reporter," the title being "can a comedian in exile come back." the person who created this

controversial image, he hasn't suffered any consequences, just her. do we still have a problem with not everybody being able to use that voice in a way that's edgy, if it offends too many people who are on the pro-trump side? >> i feel like, if you say you're ostracized, then find an audience that's going to respond to your message. it's like, i always say, say whatever you want and realize that everybody else get to interpret it once it passes your lips, right? and so for me, people don't even -- the media itself and the entertainment industry, they don't really want to talk about tough issues. so you have to find the audience and show them the audience exists. do people screw up and can people go too far? too far is personal, you know? people can make that decision. if people say you went too far and those that control the messaging want to say you went too far, that's a reality. to the point of the comics, one other point of why comics are so effective.

we are a diverse group of people. and the people in our communities, we know daca recipients, we know brown people, we know trans people, we know gay people, we know black people. they're our friends. we don't have to go digging around and rooting around to present them as some token of we care. they're in our lives. >> that's a fine point to end on. thank you guys very much. have a great weekend. tune in tomorrow when congressman joe kennedy iii joins me live. more "a.m. joy" after the break. mom? dad? hi! i had a very minor fender bender tonight in an unreasonably narrow fast food drive thru lane. but what a powerful life lesson. and don't worry i have everything handled. i already spoke to our allstate agent, and i know that we have accident forgiveness. which is so smart on your guy's part. like fact that they'll just... forgive you...

four weeks without the car. okay, yup. good night. with accident forgiveness your rates won't go up just because of an accident. switching to allstate is worth it.

that is our show for today. "a.m. joy" will be back tomorrow 10:00 a.m. eastern. alex, i'm telling our floor director, please don't say the word "flu." >> i love our conversations in the segment before this. thank you so much. >> bye. i'm alex witt at nbc headquarters in new york. here's what's happening. memo firestorm. for the first time, the president reacts since its release. but his take is vastly different than many others'. reactions from all sides. >> taking certain facts while hiding others, that's actually the definition of fraud. plus which direction