since the election. >> we're doing fantastically, the stock market hit november yawn time high. >> the stock market is at an all-time high and continues to go up, up, up. >> we did in fact break 25,000, very substantially and easily. so i guess our new number is 30,000. >> had the other side gotten in, the market would have gone down 50% from where it was. 50%. had from where it was. remember that. >> you're seeing what's happening with the stock market. people are appreciating what we're doing. >> the stock market is smashing one record after another. >> all right. this is accelerating, steep drops now, we're 5 3/4%. 1500 points lower on the dow. now we're into territory i'm not familiar with i'm scratching my head here, john, to think back to when i have seen a 6% drop in a day on the dow. >> welcome to "morning joe." >> that's a crazy day yesterday.

>> a little bit volatile. >> that's the word to use, right? >> that's like down 500 at one point? >> steep drop. >> i went out, i went and you know did my -- tilling in the garden. and i came back in, 15 minutes later and it was, it was -- >> you did exercise, that was historic event. it's tuesday, february 6th. with us we have -- former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner to explain what happened yesterday. he knows everything about it. >> i'm sure he is, what happened and what's going to happen. >> he's going to tell us exactly what we should do. >> president of the counsel on forng relations and author of the book "a world in disarray" richard haas. a associate editor of commentary magazine, noah rothman and national political reporter heidi przybilla is with us and pulitzer prize-winning historian john meechum. could be another highly volatile

day for the market. stocks fell sharply. the numbers were stunning. the dow shed 1500 points. the index fell below the 25,000 mark. erasing all of its gains for 2018. the s&p 500 pulled back more than 4%. its biggest one-day decline since august of 2011 and the nasdaq fell more than 3.5%. >> so steve, here's, here's, things are so much different right now. we're investors sit waiting for the new day to start. at least in america. you saw what was coming. understood, lehman was going down. you understood we had a bubble that was about to pop. right now you're talking to the smartest minds in the world. still can't tell you exactly why yesterday happened. was it because of -- an overheating economy? we both were talking about,

somebody talking about a possible 5% first quarter gdp. is it because of rising debt? is it because the tax cuts? the fear that that's going to overheat the economy? or is it just -- a natural pull-back? which dare i say, being in froth of stocks as much as i am, it seems to be time for a natural pull-back. my, i go to three stock advisers, blood, sweat and tears, and they tell me what goes up must come down. and -- it's time, it was time for this correction, wasn't it? >> yes. that's certainly one of the reasons. and in fact we have our chart that's going to illustrate that for you. which is to basically show you that. we have had the -- >> 6:03 we're in charts. >> we've had a long bull market going back to march of 2009. just over this five-year period, the market has basically doubled. so when you see this pullback up

here, it doesn't really seem that unexpected, unusual, inappropriate. given the breadth of the market rise over this long period of time. but the fact is, that the market of all the reasons you threw out, probably the one that's easiest to understand is that the market doesn't actually always love good news. good news is sometimes bad news for the market. and what's bothering the market at the moment is signs that wages are starting to accelerate in friday's unemployment report, although there's a bit of volatility around this, you can see that wage growth has started to accelerate. wages are now 2.8% higher than they were a year ago and it's good news for main street, we want wages to be higher. but what bothers the market is higher wages means a potentially overheated economy. and it can mean rising interest rates. and so if you look at what's been happening in the treasury market on my very last chart, you'll see that long-term treasuries, ten-year treasuries,

after having sat at around 2.4% for a long time, have been speaking upward. like that. and they got as high as about 2.85% the day before yesterday. higher interest rates are the enemy of the market. because it gives people another place to put their money and earn a high return. >> and nobody likes, obviously likes higher interest rates. but again money has been basically free for the past 15, 16 years. interest rates have been historically low. and so rising interest rates have to be coming at some point. the market will go down. but that actually gives the fed more option down the road, doesn't it? >> well eventually if we have another crisis. in the short run what the markets is expect something that the fed will increase interest rates somewhat faster than they otherwise would have. that's kind of the enemy of the stock market. that's sort of the nub of it floating around all that you have program shrinking, you have all kinds of different commodity traders in the market and on a

lot of uncertainty. >> that's the main thing today. is so we've had two really bad days. going in to what happens today. when they ring the bell. i guess the uncertainty of, of traders not even knowing what happened and why it happened, and if it's going to happen today, certainly puts a lot of people like you in uncomfortable position, whereas people like me will make their disposable income at the dog track, we're a little more relaxed. >> well but remember that, we've had a hell of a run, right. even after the last two days, the market is basically back to where it was on january 1st. >> for people, i'm just talking about donald trump, for instance, donald trump saw what happened yesterday. it undercuts his one of his strongest arguments for why he's a great president. i, you know -- >> look at markets. >> look at the markets, such

great confidence. he doesn't know what's going to happen. it could go down another 1,000 points, it could go up. >> i think the one thing we can say with confidence is we will not be seeing tweets from donald trump about the stock market for a little while. >> which is a good thing. >> but here's the serious point. if you believe what's driving the market the wrong way at the moment is a economy that's getting clo he is to overheating, in terms of wages growing, interest rates growing, the tax cuts that were just passed, fuelled the fire. the atlanta fed which tries to track this on a kind of real-time basis, they think first quarter gdp could be over 5%. that sounds like good news, it is good news, except for the stock market. >> and except for the fact that i would be shocked if it was actually 5%. richard, another thing is happening right now. we started to hear over the past couple of days, after the republicans passed tax cuts, when you already had an economy that was at full employment, after you had an economy that was already growing, that had

wages going up, moderately, but rages going up, the republicans really passed a tax cut as a stimulus, at the worst possible time. >> right. >> but add to that the added debt and the news that we've been hearing over the past several days that trump and the government was going to have to borrow more money, what $1 trillion more this year. you've been talking about the danger of debt for some time. i have as well it seems that the markets may just be spooked by all the debt that's out there. >> it's one thing to stimulate the economy, cut taxes like we had to do a decade ago, coming out of a crisis. something very different to do what we did when things are already going pretty well. it's taken the accelerator, which was already pressed, and putting it down to the floor. the short-run thing, is what steve was talking about. the longer-term thing is we'll have to borrow a lot more money, it's going to force us to raise rates, not to slow an economy, but simply to attract the

chinese, the japanese, who are the two largest foreign holders of american debt to continue buying it at the rate -- >> when you're borrowing $20 trillion, the difference between historically low interest rates and 5%, 6% interest rates, is crushing for the country. it adds so much more to our deficit. >> it's a bad cycle. because the debt, you have to buy more of it and it gets more expensive. so it's a two-fer, one that works against you. people begin to lose confidence in our ability to perform, to manage the dollar, thence that's again a really bad cycle. >> it's a bad cycle. ed idea that a time of process parent, we're going to have a $1 trillion budget deficit again this fall is something that we should all be really worried about. >> so president trump did not publicly comment yesterday on the market drop. but the white house did release a statement. saying the president's focus is on our long-term economic

fundamentals, which remain exceptionally strong. with strengthening u.s. economic growth. historically low unemployment, and increasing wages for american workers. the president's tax cuts and regulatory reforms will further enhance the u.s. economy, and continue to increase prosperity for the american people. heidi, what are you hearing on capitol hill? and what do you make of the president's statement? >> capitol hill, capitol hill republicans have long been uncomfortable with this president taking credit like he is for the stock market. this is not something we've seen previous presidents do, exactly for the reason of what we saw yesterday. now we don't know whether this is some kind of a short-term adjustment or like joe says, whether we'll continue to see something akin to a bear market. and i think the question now, for republicans is,ed a a time when they're really trying to hang their hat completely on this tax cut and the benefits of the tax cut going into 2018, to

what extent will analysts now make a connection between that and to investor anxiety about the debt. because if you remember, there was one group that was almost unified in being skeptical of this tax plan and that was economists. there were economists sending in letters saying look, at some point concern about the debt and the debt itself can become a drag on economic growth. >> we've seen this before, in 2001, george w. bush elected president. and you had republicans spending more money than ever before. discretionary domestic spending exploding. military spending exploding. record tax cuts, you could go down the list. a $7 trillion medicare part d expansion for a program that they already knew was going to be going bankrupt in time. and now you have republicans back in after swearing they wouldn't do this and what are we

doing? record, record amounts of money spent on defense spending. discretionary, domestic spending not really cut. donald trump promising not to touch entitlements and a $1.5 trillion tax cut. it's again, it looks like we're in a situation where we're going to overheat the economy and create a bubble and everybody is going to look back down the road and go, well, gee, we should have seen this coming. >> and particularly with debts and deficit. i'm very frustrated that republicans pushed the dessert forward and put the peas to the end. the window for that sort of thing has closed, it's an election year, we're coming up on primaries, nobody likes to cut discretionary spending, that's pretty much done. what i've hearing from what you've said and what heidi said, there's an opportunity for donald trump if he wanted to play possible list, saying wages are up, investors are scared, the tax cuts are putting money in your pockets, the fat cats in

washington hate this, but this is for you. i'm not sure they can make that argument because they've been leaning so heavily into the stock market rise. it sounds like there's an opportunity for somebody politically savvy and not afraid to buck norms in washington. >> except for the fact you're right, he's gone all in with the monocle on monopoly. that's his focus group. >> he's taken credit for the stock market. so doesn't he take credit for bad news? >> but he also keeps, he's been going out saying look at your 401(k)s, lieu how well they're doing. >> i don't know if you want to look at them now. >> we're looking at the losses from yesterday and comparing it to all the years -- i forgot just how bad 1987 was. in terms of percentages. it was like 22%. historically, though, this was far more mild. but -- once investors start to

get spooked, sometimes that fear can feed on itself, can't it? >> well yeah. steve has forgotten more about this than i know. it's an irrational. largely irrational market if you look at the genuine fate and course of the middle class in america, historically speaking, this is not a comfortable moment. there's a, "u.s.a. today" study from a couple of years ago that suggested that it takes $130,000 to live a classic post world war ii middle class life. and middle class definitions are like pornography, you know it when you see it. it's hard to define. but the way a lot of experts have looked at it is every grown-up has a car. you save a little bit of money. and $130,000 is more than twice, well more than twice the annual household income for a family of

four. i'm convinced that that gap, that $70,000 gap or so, is one of the reasons trump is president. and so minute to minute, even season 0 to season news from the markets, is to me, politically and culturally less important than trying to figure out how do you get to a place where people feel confident that they won't be living hand to mouth. >> let me ask you a couple of other, about a couple of other quick stories which we're going to be talking about in blocks down the road. first of all, yesterday the president suggested the democrats were treasonous for not standing when he was at the state of the union. of course there have -- democrats during the age of obama, several examples strutted out yesterday of democrats calling republicans treasonous or traitors or hostage-takers and of course we republicans in the past accused during the clinton age of people being

treasonous for not renaming post offices. i guess what i'm saying is, congressmen sometimes take the insults to a pretty low level. we are the ones that cane each other on the house floor after all. but it is highly unusual for the president of the united states in his office, to suggest that, that the opposing party is treasonous because they do whatever the opposing party has done at state of the unions for as long as there have been state of the unions. >> the way you set it up is perfect. because basically,ing early 1960s, you had in dallas, john birchers, one-world anti-u.n. conspirators. attacking adlaai stevenson. you had them spitting on lady bird johnson. that was the rabble, even then the extreme and outside the

mainstream. here's the president of the united states practicing, speaking in the language of what richard who have sthofstetter c paranoid style. maybe we should get $1 every time we had to say this is unprecedented. >> 1963, i think that's -- a good time to go back to when talking about the fears. of you have a president of the united states that is using the word "treason"" which is punishable by death under the u.s. code. and obviously there are fears of what that may lead some of his more unhinged followers to do. unhinged followers on both sides of the political aisle. this is not just about people who support donald trump. but there are people that have no guardrails and they hear this from a leader and violence can happen. just like when he calls the

media enemies of the people. or when he suggests that congressmen must be stopped. must be stopped. i think that was in a tweet yesterday. only a couple of months. after an unhinged liberal shot the republican majority whip. >> it's, i do think the cold war is a place to look at this. there was obviously oklahoma city. there was obviously a lot of violent language around directed against president obama. i think the last time you had this level of rhetoric. really is the birch, the john birch world reacting against what was the american consensus at that time. even then, to be clear, you didn't have the president of the united states doing it. and so, he was the target, john kennedy was the target. lyndon johnson was the target. so here we are again.

>> and they didn't have his party in power protecting him. >> that's a key point. john, you raised hofstetter the paranoid style of american politics in 1964. the origins of this is cultural dispossession, political powerlessness. the sense that everything is running away from you and that american virt yues have ceased exist and therefore you are at liberty to do a lot things that would otherwise be proscribed. we're seeing it with the republican style. we use the term unprecedented in a lot of ways in this moment that are probably inappropriate. but this feels really unprecedented, no? >> it is. and mika, i want to you get out your pen, it will be fun. >> are you going to bore me? >> chester arthur once said -- >> oh lord.

>> there's an even more relevant, i think hofstetter essay, he used a phrase called "psuedo conservative." beginning in the early '50s, beginning with mccarthy. he argued that what was happening with the right in america was not classic conservatism, which is understanding of the world that you manage change as best you can. >> russell kirk wrote about that in the '50s. yeah. >> so basically his argument was that the conservative tradition had been hijacked by a different kind of radical. people who were on the radical, people on the right who were as radical in their way as people on the far left. and i think that that's where, that's where we are. harry truman once said. i'll leave you with harry truman that he always hoped that the political parties would each have liberals and conservatives in them. that not all the liberals would

be in one party and not all the conservatives in another, then you would just have as he put it, two armed opposing camps. and that's exactly what we have right now. >> and we could go through whether we wanted to start at watergate or whether we wanted to start it during well our vietnam or watergate or what happened with robert bork, you could go back a long way and find extreme statements on both sides. i remember on this show, calling out glenn beck and calling out mitt romney for remaining silent when glenn beck was calling the united states, barack obama, a racist and becoming incensed by it but what is so unique now, is exactly what noah said. the republicans have gotten to power, talking about this conspiracy. that, that is leveled against them culturally, academically,

politically, legally, you name it right? and so now -- >> at the tip of that, john, at the top of the piyramid of that conspiracy, is one robert mueller. you step back to look at that pyramid. that, that pyramid of stacked conspiracy, you find robert mueller, republican, rod rosen stein, republican. the attorney general, republican. the supreme court, republican. 5-4, they wouldn't like to be called that but that's exactly what they are the house of representatives, republican. congress, republican. and the administration, republican. to know his point. you would have to go back, god, probably to 1932, before fdr was

elected to find a time when republicans dominated washington more than they washington now. and yet, they still have buffoons going out, talking about a conspiracy. we have met the enemy, buffoons, and the enemy is us. because you're on a ship and you run every part of that ship. you even run the mess hall. you can't claim that there's a conspiracy. john, it's -- it really is remarkable that these republicans still claim conspiracy when they have a complete and total monopoly over all levels of power in washington, d.c. >> it's the triumph of a self-involved drama that runs on cold front and fever as opposed to consensus and problem-solving. basically, archie bunker is

president of the united states, that's what's happened. >> no, i mean in a way, holistically, the american public, everybody has become so desensitized, republicans, especially now that they're in power, have become arrogant and lazy over time. they've lost sight of the very precious balance that is the beauty of our democracy. which is possibly crumbling before our eyes. that could sound very dramatic. but -- what else is happening? when you really think about it? >> i wouldn't call them lazy. because we get to say, to be able to concoct a conspiracy theory. >> when you control everything? that takes a lot of work. >> they've lost sight of what's important and how hard it is. >> no, they haven't. it's all about power. this is not difficult -- they like being in power. paul ryan likes being in power more than he likes being consistent to things he fought

for in the last two years. >> the president, whatever his tweet of the day, his insult of the day. they're like, oh, it's hyperbole. oh, it's this. you know what? it's not. >> i saw a friend on tv yesterday. it was so disappointing. that he could not say that it was improper for the president of the united states -- >> that's where we are. >> to call democrats treason. because they didn't give him a standing ovation. and it is, it is remarkably sad. >> it's like a crowd-sized problem, people. >> remarkably shortsighted. because republicans, right there. republicans donald trump is not going to be in power for as long as you're going to be in office. what you're doing right now is going to stay with you for the rest of your life. still ahead on "morning joe," the house intel committee votes unanimously to release the democrats' answer to the nunes memo and we're told the white

house this morning has received it. will the president allow for its release as well? we're going to be joined by two democrats in the intel committee. congressman eric swalwell, and joaquin castro and new overnight, "the new york times" is reporting that president trump's lawyers, well basically are terrified that bob mueller will outwit donald trump. it's like we said last week? >> gosh, could that happen? >> how could that happen? >> i'm sure that donald trump was a good student at fordham. so i don't understand why -- >> wharton. >> went to fordham? >> did ge to fordham? >> before that. >> he went to fordham. >> he's really smart and he says that everything happens inside his head. >> what shocks me is, let's find this just think about this. if you want to know where we are

right now, this is where we are with the president. michael schmidt. maggie haferman, the lawyers don't want him to talk to robert mueller. in part because they know robert mueller is a lot smarter than donald trump. so donald trump something led around by the nose by his lawyers. and everybody else -- >> who don't believe in him. >> they don't believe he's smart enough to handle bob mueller. his lawyers are concerned -- this is amazing. that this is the second paragraph of the lead story in "the new york times." his lawyers are concerned that the president, who has a history of making false statements and contradicting himself, could be charged with lying to the prosecutor. so basically, his own lawyers are suggesting, mr. president, his own -- >> mika, let me finish a sentence. this may be the most important sentence i've made in the last

30 seconds. mr. president, your own lawyers think you are too stupid and too much of a liar to stand up to the heat. that bob mueller is going to send in your direction, so if i had lawyers that thought i was too stupid to talk to bob mueller, i tell you what i would do, with a any man would do, or any woman would do that had any confidence in themself -- they would do that interview. and they would show those lawyers. they would show those lawyers, they're not scared, that they don't have small hands. that near not tinted, they have, big, beautiful, hands and a big, beautiful mind. and they're not going to let their lawyers think that they're too stupid and too much of a liar to talk to bob mueller. >> remember when i asked him who he spoke to, who were his advisers and he said he spoke to himself. >> he said he's a really smart guy. your lawyers thing you're dumb

and they think you're a liar, i think you need to prove them wrong. michael schmidt coming up next. no matter how the markets change... at t. rowe price... our disciplined approach remains. global markets may be uncertain... but you can feel confident in our investment experience around the world. call us or your advisor... t. rowe price. invest with confidence.

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probably the biggest risk if he was talking to his own attorneys with regards to a meeting, is just a trap. michael flynn didn't get in trouble for underlying activities that he was being asked about. the fact that you know by when peter strzok and the others were asking about it, he didn't tell the truth. same thing with pap tap louse, pleading guilty to lying to the fbi. >> that's not a trap. that's just lying. >> republican congressman warning l warning, lee zeldon warning president trump not to get in trouble. >> now republican congressmen are going on cnn, and saying that the president is too stupid to talk to mueller. >> they watch him on tv, joe, they get concerned. >> they think that he's not smart enough. is that lee zeldon guy really

comparing donald trump to george p papadopoulos? >> he's basically saying don't do it, mr. president, bob mueller is a lot smarter than you are. you're too stupid and you're going to lie. don't listen to them. like paul simon said, i get the presidential seal. >> so that is reportedly the same advice -- >> and your lawyers? who are your lawyers? >> that trump's lawyers are giving. >> they tell the "times," they're afraid you're going to lie. >> let's bring in "new york times" reporter michael schmidt. what's the concern? he should just answer questions. >> are we headed for a showdown? is donald trump going to listen to his lawyers? or does trump still defiantly want to prove that he's -- he can keep up with robert mueller? >> i think the president thinks

he's his best spokesman. he thinks he is the best person to make his arguments, whether that's publicly or legally or otherwise. but let's say the president goes along with his lawyers. the problem is, is that he's probably going to lose in court. because mueller will subpoena him. it will go all the way up to the supreme court. and if you look at nixon, and the tapes issue, back during watergate, nixon lost there and had to hand the tapes over. and if you talk to legal folks, they say look, this is pretty clear. the president has to respond to legitimate requests from law enforcement officials. so even though everyone in washington thinks that this is a bad idea for him to sit down with mueller, it looks like it will probably happen at some point, if mueller wants it to happen. >> hey john meechum, you never know how these things are going to turn out. i remember when bill clinton sat down and was deposed. and of course republicans thought that bill clinton was going to be trapped.

and i remember calling my mother -- who, if anybody -- she was not a fan. >> if anybody loathed bill clinton more than my mother, i would like to know. jerry falwell was a clinton supporter compared to my mom. i really can't tell you how much it was visceral, there was a visceral hatred of bill clinton. >> still is. >> unlike anything i've ever seen in my life. so i call my mom, after they televise bill clinton's deposition. say what do you think, mom? she said, my god, i can't believe you did that to that poor man. i go back, i go back to my friends in the republican caucus and say boys, turn off the lights, we're screwed. it's over. let's, let's just unpack it. because -- and we saw, when you put the president of the united states even back on his heels,

in a position like that, americans instinctively rally to him. >> huh. >> yeah, that's going to be a fascinating test to see whether this president can command that kind of almost mythic loyalty. which is to some extent what president clinton was doing. president clinton was also proving to be one of the great defense lawyers of all time. >> you say defense lawyer, i say liar under oath. but go ahead. >> there you're splitting hairs again. >> i'm not splitting hairs. it depends on what your meaning of -- is. >> splitting hairs. >> what we got from bill clinton there. >> and why we're here today. >> and it is, it is one of the great historic documents, because there are very few things where phrases actually enter the culture. but it depends on what the

definition of "is" is, will stick to bill clinton in every book that's ever written about him. it will go forever. what i wanted to ask michael is, it said that one of the most fascinating experiences in modern washington was to talk to jim baker, the white house chief of staff under president reagan, treasury secretary, secretary of state, about the front page of the "new york times." it said that secretary baker could sit with the front page and take a sharpie and absolutely deconstruct it in the way margaret mead would deconstruct an ecosystem in the south seas, telling you exactly where each leak had come from exactly whose agenda it was. my question is -- in the great wilderness of mirrors that is washington. and i know you can't answer this, but i'm asking it for the record, is it possible that the people who were putting out that they think the president is not sharp enough to keep up with bob

mueller, are desperate for trump to try to keep up with bob mueller? is there any more, is there any more certain way to get this prideful president to take that deposition and interview than to say he's not smart enough to do it? >> i don't think that the president's lawyers trust him in this situation. so i don't think that is the aim. what this may be is an effort to try and put mueller back on his heels to try and make it clear to mueller that they're not going to give in here, to a free-wheeling interview. to try to get better terms for an interview. i think in a dream scenario they would have the ability to provide written answers to questions. i think my guess is that mueller would not go for that that seems a little too elementary for a president. but if the white house could -- and the lawyers could kpreetly control what was coming out of the president -- completely --

in terms of a written statement that would be ideal. the other alternative is they would like more narrow terms of what was going to be talked about. but i think one of the concerns is not even just the question of whether the president will be truthful. but it will be that the president goes on and on. the president likes to talk and will talk for hours on end. the president may feel a need to try to explain himself from mueller to think that he can say hey, look, tell me why this is or why this happened. that could open up all these new avenues to mueller that could have the president going on and on and i think that's something they're concerned about. >> michael schmidt. thank you so much. we really appreciate it did you hear him giving that answer? the lawyers don't trust donald trump. they don't think he's -- >> it's not up to it.

>> they don't think donald trump is up to it. the lawyers think they can speak for donald trump, better than donald trump. and they are telling people that. they think he's not smart enough. they think he's going to lie. this is truly extraordinary. the president in this situation, i would be angry and i would prove to them, i'm not dumb. >> i speak to me. >> what's ahead, mika? >> still ahead, vice president mike pence is heading to the winter olympics this week, and he isn't ruling out a meeting with north korea. even if that doesn't happen, the vp is still planning to send a message. we'll get richard has s's take on that and the u.s. is signaling that nuclear arms are back in a big way. whatever you're doing to stay healthy...

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oh, did we catch them in the act or what? you know what i'm talking about. oh did we catch them in the act? they are very embarrassed. any never thought they were going to get caught. we caught 'em. we caught 'em, it's so much fun. we're like -- the great sleuth. >> they were on camera. that was great. >> maybe you shouldn't talk. >> that was so --

>> please, put some tape over your mouth and let the lawyers speak. >> he's president of the united states and i think that lee zeldon and other republicans who think the president is too stupid to talk? >> no, please -- >> should keep their opinion to themselves and i think his lawyers, donald trump can speak for himself better than some lawyer that was the president of the united states seemingly alluding to devin nunes, the inspector clouseau of capitol hill. he needs to decide whether to release the democratic party's rebuttal. >> we've got two members of the house intel committee. >> we have two. >> they don't think the president is stupid like his own lawyers do. >> they are still ahead on "morning joe." >> why do the president's lawyers think he is stup?

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with regard to any interaction with the north korean delegation, i have not requested a meeting, but we'll see what happens. well, let me say, president

trump has said he always believes in talking. but i haven't requested any meeting but we'll see what happens. vice president mike pence is leaving open the possibility of meeting with the north korean delegation, something hinted at by secretary of state rex tillerson earlier in the day. pence is currently enroute to tokyo after a brief stop over in alaska before making his way to south korea. later in the week for the winter olympics which kick off this friday. >> so richard haass, my god, any time we look at news and maybe see a glimmer of -- reason to hope we are immediately knocked back but i say it may be serendipitous that these winter olympics are in south korea and offer the opportunity the vice president or the american delegation to get together to talk to north korea. how important would it be for

mike pence to sit and talk to his north korean counterparts. >> it would be a big deal. just first of all the fact it happened, the symbolism of it. now u.s. policy, though, is all over the place. vice president is basically still demanding denuclearization, the question is whether we create that as a prerequisite or long-term goal. other people are talking about limited uses of military force. we still don't have an ambassador in south korea because of. >> that but just to defuse the situation. >> the ideas that we'd have a u.s./north korean dialogue and not just a north/south dialogue would be important because this means we could advance our issues on the agenda. so yes it would be a significant step. >> what do you make of the north koreans and south koreans unify ing on the olympic stage? >> well, it's very much the north's goal to separate south korea from the united states. it sends a signal that they're more reasonable than many people take. it leaves me a little bit uneasy because south korea's agenda is not the american agenda.

i wouldn't mind if the secretary of state or vice president or anyone began to open up a direct dialogue with the north. >> isn't the south korean agenda right now not having donald trump start a war that ends up killing 500,000 of their people in about 15 minutes. >> that's a big part of it. >> that's a pretty good agenda. is there a better agenda? >> if you're living in seoul you're within range of 20,000 north korean artillery tubes so, yeah, south korea obviously worries about that. >> do you get the sense this pageantry around this unified north and south korean presence backfired a bit? i saw stories the public was a little frustrated by the fact that the north seemed to be appropriate rating the symbol of national pride. >> it's interesting you point that out. the south korean president is very much a so-called peace candidate, a sunshine candidate and that's not shared. there's a lot of nationalism in south korea, a lot of resentment, unification is not high on the charts of south korea as a political agenda so

you're on to something there. >> why does the u.s. want more nuclear weapons? what are we going to -- >> the new nuclear posture statement talks about advances in the chinese and russian programs. there's certain thinking we need to have nuclear weapons to deter cyber strikes, cyber attacks. there's some thinking that unless we create a new generation on what's called low-yield nuclear weapons that we're no longer credible. we can't have a choice between doing nothing or doing everything. what this is, joe, this is a return of the debates we used to have 40 and 50 years ago at the height of the cold war. >> it sounds like barry goldwater limited nuclear warfare. >> it's the debate about whether you need to be prepared to do small things in order to be credible. pluz we're talking about specific language that we would be prepared to be the first site to use nuclear weapons in quote/unquote extreme circumstances which the nuclear posture statement defines as

someone else -- doesn't say who -- using non-nuclear weapons against us in a strategic way. for example, using signer to go after command-and-control. >> which, again, mika, is right in line with what we warned people about on this show in august of 2015 when donald trump was running around asking and even said it on "hardball" saying if we have these nuclear weapons, why can't we use them when chris matthews was just trying to get him to stop from saying he might use nukes this is what we saw in 2016. this is what we warned our viewers about. it was out there and they voted for a guy that -- >> well, i don't think our viewers. >> i'm just saying it made it to the "new york times," it made it across the media landscape enough for americans to know that donald trump supported the possible use of nuclear strikes.

>> to be fair, some of this began under the obama administration, a lot of these calls to modernize so this is a big debate. we're talking enormous dollars. this could cost $40 billion a year over the next -- for 30 years. this is over a trillion dollars, maybe a trillion and a half so this ain't chump change. >> the effect requires a functioning nuclear arsenal and as you said this is new and some of our facilities like y-12 are literally crumbling. >> richard haass, thank you. >> we don't have the money. i hate to be discouraging, we don't have the money. jon meacham, thank you for being with us. coming up, president trump took credit for his record highs on wall street so what is he saying about this big drop? >> big, beautiful 20,000? >> he is a big man. so what does he make of the big drop in the dow. nbc's andrea mitchell and the "washington post's" eugene robinson joins us. >> quick correction, everything

will be fine today, kids. >> all good.

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three days later, 12 hours later, the real donald trump comes back. >> here's the president tweeting, and this says so much "little adam schiff, who is desperate to run for higher office, is one of the biggest liars and leakers in washington who leaves closed committee hearings to illegally leak confidential information. must be stopped." >> i really didn't even want to look too much during the speech over to that side because honestly, it was bad energy. no, it was bad energy. you're up there, you've got half the room going totally crazy, wild, they loved everything, they want to do something great for our country, and you have the other side even on positive news, really positive news like that they were like death. and un-american. un-american. somebody said treasonous. i mean, yeah, i guess why not? [ laughter ] can we call that treason? why not?

[ applause ] i mean, they certainly didn't seem to love our country very much. >> welcome back to "morning joe." so we had gene at the beginning of the clip predicting this, and he was right. it was ia simulac. i've said to my children, this is isimulaa simulacrum of what to make a snow day. >> sleep deprivation can make all kinds of words. >> and last year the president gave a speech for a joint session of congress, people applauded him because he was on his best behavior and three days later he accused of barack obama of being the watergate -- orchestrating the watergate break in and tapping his phones at trump tower.

>> so much for presidential tru trump. we're now back to donald trump. it's -- you know, it's appalling, but we knew that, and it's hard. every two or three days something happens that should never happen in this country with the presidency in the white house. and i just -- we have to resist outrage fatigue. at the same time we have to make it through sometimes. >> >> also, again, it's about about context. howie kurtz was on our show and you remember what he said about mika and the facelift that never was which that she was bleeding all over the place. kurtz recounts a conversation that scaramucci was having with him where he said "you should haven't said that about mika." trump said "you didn't like that?" he said "no, it's not

presidential" and donald trump said "well, is anybody talking about north korea today? is anybody talking about --" i forget what the other issue was. and scaramucci said no. and donald trump said well, no, it's not that bad. >> it's so tactical! donald trump called the democrats treasonous while the bottom was falling out of the market. >> exactly. >> but what he didn't understand is that when people are losing as much money as they're losing in their 401(k)s, they don't give a damn what he's saying in ohio. >> we have andrea mitchell. >> the fact is that presidents normally -- steve can validate me on this, presidents and treasury secretaries don't brag about the stock market because everyone knows what goes up

comes down. it was overvalued. people are worried about interest rates. experts far smarter than i can talk about that. the fact is that is not -- he's right about the fundamentals. he's right about a lot of things. so there's reasons to be nervous about this country whether you're frame talking about the national health system in the uk or anything else. >> the markets had a correction, there are many people nervous on wall street but let's pull back and repeat what people always say. the stock market is not the economy. there's a great divide between

wall street and main street and often what is good news for america is bad news for wall street and that's the case yesterday, right? wall street's panicking because the economy may be getting a lot better. >> yeah, ironically, sometimes what's good for the economy is bad for the stock market so on friday you had very strong wage numbers which unnerved the economy because it looks like more inflation or even worse higher interest rates which have been going up in the treasury markets and higher interest rates means people have another place to put their money besides stocks, you can put them in bonds. >> and the atlanta fed talking about 5% growth which i think is wildly out -- >> the thereaboatlanta fed thin quarter gdp will be over 5%. but i think there are two points. with this tax cut we are throwing fuel on to a fire that's already burning and that's bad for the stock market

and interest rates. but we're not in any kind of economic crisis or financial crisis at the moment but we were in one ten years ago, they happen periodically, we do not have a team in place with the possible exception of gary cohn at the nec that is capable of dealing with this. >> the tax cut was probably ill-advised, pouring fuel on the fire, a lot of economists said so at the time, a feel good thing and they thought it was the best antidote to the wave they are worried about in the midterm elections. he went out yesterday to talk about tax reform, supposedly what they call tax reform, and instead it was a grocery political speech, a campaign speech which ended in the treasonous comments. >> but i will say when steve mnuchin was appointed there were some people on wall street that quietly said "that guy is not up for this." and when we have a crisis, they'll see that even more.

it's -- not knocking mnuchin, but of all the positions that a president chooses, that is the one where you in case of emergency you break the glass and you make sure the person that walks out can go to the markets, pick up the phone and say lloyd, relax. we'll take care of it, jamie, don't worry about it. what do you need from us? mnuchin can't do that. >> no, you talk to tim geithner and ben bernanke, talk to them about the ticktock of the financial crisis and what it was like to live through that hour by hour day by day making consequential decisions, making phone calls and try to imagine mnuchin doing that?

>> is steve mnuchin going to get buy-in from jamie dimon. ? it was hard enough for anyone to get buy-in from jamie dimon, i understand. that's why you have to have somebody with great substance. you can't listen to gary cohn. >> it's both getting buy in from jamie dimon but it's calming the markets and showing leadership. we were incredibly lucky in 2008 that we had hank paulson, a republican, ben bernanke, you can't do this with minor league players. it doesn't work. >> and let me just say we just lost someone, a man named bill mcdonagh, head of the new york fed, you knew him as well back in 1987 when you had a new fed chairman, someone i know very well, he'd only taken office in august and this was october and it was an enormous drop and you had people in major positions

who understood the markets and showed the leadership. jim maker at treasury. howard baker at chief of staff. >> and they have to get on the phone and everybody has to be peers so they can say "i know you don't want to do this, i need your help." >> and the same thing after 9/11. >> can you imagine this guy calling lloyd blankfein and lloyd going "okay, wait a second. this is the guy that went to davos and talked down the dollar and he's going to tell me how i should respond in a crisis? >> and let me just say, there were republicans and democrats in the past. after 9/11 my husband was on an airplane over the atlantic and completely out of reach and roger ferguson, the vice chair of the fed, ran the world economy during that period. an amazingly smart man. >> there are lots and lots of capable people out there who can do these jobs.

none of them are in this administration. >> correct. that's the problem. >> with the possible exception of gary cohn. other news, the house intelligence committee voted unanimously to release the democrats' classified memo. it responds to the one republicans released last week accusing the justice department and fbi of misconduct and their warrant applications to spy on former trump campaign adviser carter page. the white house says it has received the memo. press secretary sarah huckabee sanders says that the administration will follow the same process and procedure with this memo from the minority as it did last week when it received the memo from the majority. if president trump octobers to its release, it could still be made public but only if the house votes to allow it, a move that would require at least two dozen republicans to side with democrats against the president. >> so let's bring a member of the house intelligence committee, congressman eric swalwell of california.

heidi has the first question for you. good morning. >> hi, congressman. the president now has five days to review this memo to decide what to do. adam schiff last night said they're not so much concerned about a wholesale blockage of the memo but they are concerned about what he called political redactions. i was wondering if you could speak about that and the fact that you guys went to the effort of having the fbi, the justice department, review your memo unlike what the republicans did with their memo. can you speak about the political redactions and what kind of recourse you may have? >> we want our memo released without political edits. this is a reluctant release we pushed for because first it puts out there sources and methods that would never be acknowledged by the department of justice. another overlooked point but important to us is that this is an ongoing investigation and that was acknowledged by our republican colleagues with their concerns about our memo but the

concern is you're giving subjects and witnesses in an investigation more and more investigation that investigators would rather keep closely held. hour we believe the only antidote to the poison they put throughout is to give americans the full picture. and we have written it in a way that we believe the doj will find that to put in into context what they've alleged some sources and methods will have to be revealed but only to go as far as to clean up the mess that they made with their memo. >> congressman, are you concerned that this could start an escalating cascade of cals to release source document affidavits, what led to the fisa memo and to tex tent that that could jeopardize american national security. could you elaborate on that? >> that's why we were reluctant to support this. the decision point we had was to either do nothing and festing

the public sentiment or to try to correct the record so we've sought to carefully collect correct the record only commenting on sources and methods to create the allegations that they've made but now that they've burned christopher steele and acknowledged he was a long-time source there are people cooperating with the fbi on anti-terrorism cases and they may be worried that because of political winds they may be exposed and their lives put at risk. >> congressman, i don't understand. most of us around the table thought it was a terrible idea to release the nunes memo and after it was released it was in modern parlance, a nothing burger. there was nothing to it. you even had trey gowdy and three other republicans on your intel committee saying this had nothing do with the bob mueller case. in fact, the timeline hurts donald trump. is that is the case, why release another memo that, again, causes

me as much concern as the republican release because this fisa process has always been shrouded in secrecy and let me say that's a damn good thing in most cases so why reveal more meth methods? why reveal more sources if the nunes memo was much ado about nothing. >> the public's view of the fbi, particularly among republicans, has been tainted by this i saw this morning and we need the fbi to have credibility so our memo bolster theirs credibility for this investigation only but i agree with you, this is a dangerous road. >> you're going to expose sources and processes based on a snap poll released after nunes' bizarre memo? >> we stick to the sources and methods they've already exposed but we've already cleaned it up

and put it into context they won't provide. so our fear is that if the public has questions about the fbi when indictments come out and jurors are impaneled that we may not see a fair justice system and if the president did cross a line by committing obstruction of justice or working with the russians that people in the house of representatives will not hold him accountable because people will say well, there was a taint at the fbi so we'll look the other way. we didn't want that perception out there. >> i was talking to one democrat, congressman, not on your committee who said why don't they just leave it alone? because the republican memo was such a bomb, really, as joe just said, a nothing burger. just leave it alone. what you're doing is prolonging this debate and giving another network time to amplify their memo further. just drop it and get back to the dreamers and to negotiating a budget deal this has been a

complete distraction and it doesn't help the investigation at all even if it doesn't affect the mueller investigation. it's the distraction the white house wants. >> we'd have preferred to be interviewing witnesses this w k week. we don't have the -- we're not talking about the $1.50 tax relief but we have a responsibility to not let the department of justice and their independents be run over by this president and we'll stand for that firmly. >> congressman eric swalwell, thank you very much for being on. >> my pleasure. >> everybody else, stay with us. still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> i don't understand, i really don't. you can't say we have to do this to defend the fbi and the justice department on one hand and on the other hand say that nunes was a bomb.

that sets up a timeline that hurts donald trump so why should the democrats continue down this flawed path? this dangerous path? >> i understand the impulse to correct the record but i tend to agree that by putting out a more detailed memo that amplifies the timeline and gets everything right, it does create an occasion to talk about this nothingburger. >> nobody will let bob mueller do his job. >> he'll do his job. >> but everybody's going out there going this hasn't proved this. just let him do his job and please do no more harm. >> and the committee was supposed to have steve bannon today and he's refusing to come and nobody's talking about that. still ahead on "morning

joe," what happens when fake news meets fake video? our next guest asked us to imagine a day when hackers can create videos of their enemies. but is that day already here? >> this is is frightening piece. >> plus, washington is heading towards another potential government shutdown this week and there's still no daca deal in sight. will lawmakers be able to find an immigration solution the white house can get behind? you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. directv has been rated #1 in customer satisfaction over cable for 17 years running. but some people still like cable. just like some people like banging their head on a low ceiling. drinking spoiled milk. camping in poison ivy. getting a papercut. and having their arm trapped in a vending machine. but for everyone else, there's directv. for #1 rated customer satisfaction over cable, switch to directv and get a $200 reward card. call 1.800.directv

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>> your highness, the transmission we received. what is it they've sent us? >> hope. >> so that was a scene from "rogue one." i get chills when that happened. it was an amazing moment. mika, if you ever saw a single

"star wars" film you would have also gotten chills. >> i walked out of the first "star wars." >> "rogue one" was amazing. >> dumb. >> our next guest references that scene in his "new york times" column. rick pearl and seen the wrote a piece that said "in 2016 the director of the "star wars" film rogue one was able to create a young princess leia by manipulating images of carrie fisher as she looked in 1977. less than two years later, images of similar quality can be created with a software available for free download. one harrowing potential eventuality, fake video and audio may become so convincing it can't be distinguished from real recordings rendering evidence inadmissible in court and even when it isn't perfect, it can convince people who want to be convinced. it already feels as though we're living in an alternative science fiction universe where no one agrees what is true. just how much worse it will be

when fake news becomes fake video, democracy assumes its citizens share the same reality. we're about to find out whether democracy can be preserved when this assumption no longer holds." rick joins us. rick, i remember a year ago, ari emmanuel sent me a video of barack obama talking and you had clip one where barack obama was saying what barack obama was saying. then in clip two it was manipulated to have barack obama say something completely different and actually say words that barack obama would never say. and you could not tell what was the real thing and what was forgery. you're talking about this and they've already -- you've had i guess a hollywood star being a victim of this with her face superimposed in a pornographic scene. how far away are we from this becoming something that we see on twitter everyday?

>> any day, month, week. it's getting better minute by minute. guys can go down on reddit and download this software and put a solid day of work in and make some pretty convincing stuff. but, you know, it's not entirely new. back in the french revolution they made engravings of members of the aristocracy in compromising positions and people were convinced by that so it's not only the technology that we're talking about, it's not just the algorithms that computers use, it's also the algorithms of democracy that we need to talk about. >> you talk about the problem with videos, recordings being inadmissible even in court. >> that's conceivable. >> the impact that could have as well on criminal cases. >> right, imagine if a surveillance video is evidenced in a court of law and they say

you could just use this software to fake it. remember donald trump saying that he thought that the "access hollywood" tape was faked. people will be able to get away with that all the time. >> rick perlstein, noah rothman with "commentary" magazine. >> hi, noah. >> i'm under the impression that the sort of stuff we've seen that's fake news, as it were, is -- has kind of a very limited audience, an aud dwlaeience tha pre-conditioned too accept this reality as their own. >> that's right. >> particularly because it's motivated reasoning, they want to believe it. >> that's right. >> to what extent is this stuff appealing and always going to appeal to an audience that's already pre-conditioned to accept it. an audience that doesn't want to consume alternative media, media that doesn't already conform to their biases. are we fretting about a future that is very limited in scope? >> i think you're mischaracterizing the way the modern world works. politico just had a huge report

using wonderful research showing that the twitter people -- meme "release the memo" was drummed up by bots possibly connected to russia. so people at the low end of the food chain pick this stuff up and it kind of works its way up the media food chain because, you know, traditional media outlets want to get those eyeballs, they say people are talking about it so we need to talk about it and lo and behold on a channel like msnbc or cnn, suddenly the nunes memo is 24/7. so that's basically the media food chain and that's our role as journalists, as editors, as political actors, we have a responsibility to figure out how this stuff works. this is not as much of a problem in a country like france where russia tried to hack macron's election, right?

but they managed to fight it off? why did they manage to fight off these kind of techniques and not senator john kerry my co-author, his name is henry ferrell, he's a wonderful professor at georgetown, wrote a great essay about this in "foreign policy magazine" called "american democracy is an easy target." so this is stuff we can think about, this is stuff we can fix. >> and, in fact, rick, how do you fix it when the senate foreign relations committee recently cataloged how the administration by denying the russian interference in the election is refusing to make the fixes necessary before the 2018 midterms. >> that's right. that's right. and that's a perfect example of how we're talking about an algorithm of democracy that is broken, not just computer algorithms. the craziest story if it doesn't get oxygen doesn't go anywhere. a good blogger, a friend of mine

named heather parton who blogs under the name dig by came up with something called cokie's law. cokie roberts talked about a crazy clinton conspiracy theory in the '90s and she said "i need to talk about it because this is what people are talking about when i go to the beauty parlor." this is the role that people in the media have to think responsibility about behavior that's irresponsible and call it like it is. so you guys did a great job saying that the republicans are spreading disinformation, that's what we need to do, call it out. not just repeat it. >> they're gatekeepers as well. >> that's right. >> and the major gatekeepers are google, facebook, twlt a-- twitter, and for any of us who have problems with google -- and i certainly have -- i could have cured cancer, you would have typed in my name and a conspiracy theory would come up oopd that was google's responsibility because they were the publisher.

now, they fixed it. >> those places can be much better regulated. >> but it's the same thing with this fake news. facebook, we had kamala harris on. she didn't want to come out and say that facebook needed to be more aggressively regulated in this is fake news area. >> joe, in germany you can go on twitter and change your settings to make it seem like you're in germany and you will not get nazis in your twitter feed because they have done the job as a democratic nation of saying "we want to regulate this." >> but that's a fundamental difference between how europeans think about free speech and privacy and how we think. >> well, it's not engraved on stone tablets. we need to think about this stuff. >> we have to ask a question about which is right? i agree that nobody wants to see stuff on google that is wrong or out of context but what do we do about it as a free speech country? >> how about facebook responding to subpoenas with more

responsibility? >> if newspapers allowed t publishing of the things that google allowed -- >> but they say they're not newspapers -- i would have been able to -- i wouldn't be here today because i would have sued them and living off the settle. >> that's not a regulatory issue. that's personal responsibility. >> at some point we have to treat northbound and twitter the way they are. >> they have to face who they are. >> if 55% of americans got their news if walter cronkite in 1971 and he was knowingly allowing sow y soviet propaganda on the airways, please don't tell me the federal government wouldn't have stepped in and i'm sick and tired of people saying that we should have some wild west view of how we regulate the internet, how we regulate facebook, how we regulate twitter. i don't know if people

understand this. our dim zi is under attack. not only did the russians try to impact our elections, you know what else they did? just last week they tried to impact an investigation into them trying to impact our election with "release the memo" are russian bots and you tell me why is twitter not held to a minimal standard when our democracy is at risk? >> this is -- >> and yes, it is at risk. >> this is a difficult conversation to have. journalists all my life dedicated to the first amendment but we need to have this conversation. we need to talk about this fake news issue and get our arms around it because it is incredibly destructive. >> you have to have the conversation. >> and it happens on both sides and when remembers are victims of it -- and i was a victim of this when i was a conservative republican congressman. >> you still are. >> i'm not a congressman. i'm still conservative.

>> there are a lot fewer of us these days. i am conservative. noah is conservative. >> if you've got on the the heart of the issue, we need to think about social media platforms as what they are, publishers. and in the court of law and in the court of public opinion they are fighting this. they are acting like corporations that only care about making as much money as possible hand over fist and have no civic responsibility and that has to end. >> google also publishers. they are publishers and they acted responsibly in my case after about a decade but what you see, you're exactly right, if somebody does a fascist video, a neonazi video or a fake video nobody will see it unless google puts it out there, twitter puts it out there, facebook puts it out there and lets it go viral. >> but who is going to decide what is on google and not? >> who decides what the "new york times" can put out there?

it's in the law. if the "new york times" steps over the line, they will be sued. >> it's a law and we have the same thing with google. >> no, we don't. ireland has it, other european countries have it, we don't have it. and to say that something else -- >> joe, what we are talking about are the institutions of democracy and if our democracy and republican form of government is undermined by disinformation campaigns, like you say, then there isn't going to be a free press. so the media needs to think about the very institutions of democracy and how we can shore them up if we want to keep this system of government like abraham lincoln says. >> and by the way, guess what? guess what? it goes back to money. why doesn't kamala harris want to come on our show -- and we're so glad she did -- but why wasn't she aggressively going after facebook and twitter? >> we should play what she said. >> she represents them. she's in california, she represents them and if she's going to run for president -- this, by the way, applies to everybody running for president,

not just her. you don't want to cross facebook. >> i don't think she'll have a problem crossing them. >> yes, she will. don't kid yourself. they all will. they all will have trouble and that is where we stand. i want to ask you before we go -- >> joe, i think mika was trying to say something there. >> i just don't think kamala harris will have a hard time crossing facebook and these companies when she is across the table from them. i think she's trying to work with them which is why she wasn't masikryong. >> i'm curious, did you're piece go out, did you not here that before? i knew she was trying to say something. alex? alex? is rick's ear piece working? >> i think it's fine. >> okay, thank god. so i can go to my next question to you. >> before we go, rick, i have to ask you -- and i'm worried about you're piece because i want you to hear this next question -- because you wrote two would have the best books i think about the conservative movement in "before

the storm" and nixonland" and i remember having pat buchanan saying "he may be a liberal but he's okay, nixonland is great." they are incredible books. i'm curious drawing a line from what you wrote about barry goldwater's campaign in '64 and nixon in '68 and '72, i'm curious what you're thinking about 2017 and how much of what we're seeing today started with what you first started writing about in 1964? >> well, joe, all will be explained in volume four of my series coming out in about a year, called "reaganland." so you heard it here first. historians try to draw continuities but we also see contrast so i have that boring historian answer that it's complicated. >> it is complicated. >> best selling author rick perlstein, thank you very much. >> were you trying to say

something? >> are you interrupting me again? >> was there anything else that you wanted to say? because you said kamala harris could stand up and i heard that. i just -- >> look at andrea right now. >> i would feel horrible if rick -- because rick thought i interrupted you. >> i think kamala harris, though, i do think she can be a force to be reckoned with. she's waiting for her moment. but i hear you. >> i think you're right. >> thank you. >> you're always right, though. >> can the trump administration figure out -- >> have you ever not been right, sweetie? >> oh, god, don't do that. that's a no. >> we just crossed a line here. >> you really did. >> we vice president done that since we've been engaged -- >> no! >> it's like everybody's seen grandparents kissing and we understand that, we're old people, nobody wants to see it. >> nobody wants to know, joe. anything. >> what, that's we're engaged? >> stop, don't talk about it. >> you have a ring on. do you think noah gave you that

rick? we're engaged. >> andrea, what do you think about north korea? have we talked about north korea? >> when the vice president arrived in alaska he said something very, very important. [ laughter ] the highest level meeting. >> so we have just proven what we've always said. when people ask about us personally we're like -- >> no, no, no. >> we're really old people. you really need -- >> not to me you're not. >> you have to act like beyonce. >> you just did that. >> crossed the line. >> touched my hand. >> sorry. >> wait until you're mare zbleed can the trump administration figure out what the bush and obama administration could not? pulitzer prides winning author is going to be heave. >> inside america's secret wars in afghanistan and pakistan. >> and i promise -- >> we'll be right back. >> we won't make you uncomfortable anymore. >> don't. [ click, keyboard clacking ]

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what can a president [ do in thirty seconds? he can fire an fbi director who won't pledge his loyalty. he can order the deportation of a million immigrant children. he can threaten an unstable dictator armed with nuclear weapons. he can go into a rage and enter the nuclear launch codes. how bad does it have to get before congress does something?

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the u.s. military says its forces have begun a new aerial bombing campaign in northern afghanistan against suspected taliban training facilities,

this after 16 years of american involvement there. joining us now, dean of the graduate school of journalism at columbia university, pulitzer prize winning author of "ghost war" steve coll, his new book is called "directorate s." let's talk about the latest news out of afghanistan. your thoughts on that and then we'll talk about the book. >> we've been fighting a couple wars in afghanistan since the obama administration won assisting afghan forces in the war against the taliban and last year we dropped a lot more bombs. i think we're dropping at least 25% or 50% more bombs in 2017 than the year before because we're the air force that the afghan government needs to keep the taliban out of cities. so it's kind of a grinding

stalemated war. the trump administration did a big policy review and thought about some changes, put more pressure on pakistan but it's essentially the same way the obama administration was fighting in its second term. >> the same war the obama administration was fighting in a second term, andrea, and as we look at this book we're also looking at new leadership with a very different hard-to-predict approach toward foreign policy. >> exactly. and you have the role isis now, not just the haqqani network coming over from pakistan as you know so well and the taliban. it's isis spreading because it's been driven out of syria, perhaps, and iraq. how much of a threat is that? >> well, they are a small player relative to the taliban in afghanistan but they're significant in the areas they've controlled, they're much detested by the local population, they've carried out sectarian executions in eastern afghanistan. they're vicious by comparison to the taliban. they seem to have been pushed into eastern afghanistan out of pakistan as part of pakistan's

policy of trying to get control over its own territory and push the war back into afghanistan so it's a mess along that border. it has been since we overthrew the taliban in 2002 but the number of groups and the complexity of what's happening in that part of the war is even worse. >> and the level of violence in kabul itself and surrounding areas just in the last week. >> crazy. >> we've had four or five major terror attacks. >> steve, you've been covering afghanistan since 1989, whatever, and i mean for a long time on every level. where if you look at where afghanistan is now does anything occur to you that we could make things better for afghanistan's security and future prosperity. are there good options. >> no, there aren't good options but a starting point for any policy in afghanistan is

humility, recognizing that this is a really hard problem and that it takes lots of different strategies and a lot of attenti attention. one thing that doesn't work is keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. >> one of the things that is so so striking is the report from the inspector general who issues a report on what's happening in afghanistan that he has been told by the pentagon that unclassified data on how bad this brand of the taliban is and how weak the control of the local authorities is, that that cannot be released in his report so it's redacted throughout. >> it's echos of vietnam, we can't handle the truth about how the war is going. i worked on this book for five or ten years and resisted the temptation to compare afghanistan to vietnam for a long time. there's an episode in the book where richard holbrooke is advising obama and obama gets irritated with his comparisons

to vietnam and i remember talking to holbrooke after that meeting and he said "they shouldn't be afraid of history." i've come around to thinking we have to watch the patterns that we keep repeating in our foreign policy and one of them is suppressing facts about a difficult stalemate in war because we can't handle the facts. >> the book is "directorate s" steve coll, thank you very much. coming up, one of our next guests said the deep state did exist in 2016 and that it elected donald trump. lanny davis is here with his new book on james comey's role in the 2016 election and what it means for what we're seeing now with the nunes memo. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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all right. we've got nbc sports soccer analyst roger bennet here. roger, i'm going to ask you, how

much do the linesmen get paid in the liverpool totten ham match? >> not enough, joe. >> and you've admitted it, you have never seen a game thrown like that game was thrown in the final five minutes. >> let the american people decide. >> this is what they worried about the most. >> week 26, liverpool in the red, spurs in the white, 90 minutes. more drama than in eight seasons of "the bachelor." goal scoring started early. 130 seconds. the little egyptian, he won't score many easier than that. almost embarrassed to score it. spurs needed something special to drag themselves back into the game. look at this. this is special. oh! >> power, precision. true facts, wolf blitzer was named after that. harry kab misses the penalty. his english mn overrides the ability. like an egyptian, barry sanders, it's mo salah moving like an

electric eel. liverpool win. but do they, joe? >> did not touch him. >> eric lamella feels gravity more than normal human beings. look at this. >> and then it's the linesman that gives the penalty kick. >> i will agree with you, joe, that penalty decision worse than devin nunes. would you agree? >> both of them were. >> yes. >> let me ask you, yesterday chelsea loses again. for those that don't realize the ebb and flow, chelsea wins the premier league, then they collapse. then they firer their manager, then they win it again. now they're collapsing again. >> life is like an mc escher painting where you're perpetually turning around the corner. >> is there a more fun side to watch, though, than manchester city? city is, i think, an amazing wonderful spectacle. >> usually i adore you. probably the answer would be

everton football club. it feels like cheering for a sadness that will never end. >> 5-1, they lost over the weekend to arsenal. this is what is now known by presidential historians as the saturday afternoon massacre. it was deeply ugly. but the philadelphia eagles won. even they can feel joy. every fan of every sport believes they can win. not you, cleveland browns fans. how bad is your everton side? >> look at this. this man, happiness is but a fleecing emotion. >> arsene wenger, he's gone at the end of this year, isn't he? >> we all are. we all are. >> roger has just given us his prediction on the north koreaenan nuclear stalemate. >> life is slow dying. back to you, joe. >> good morning, mom and dad. i hope your kids were out of the room. roger bennet thinks, i think, the vicious of soccer

commentaries. still ahead, we're keeping a close eye on the markets after another massive sell-off yesterday. steve ratner is going to help us make sense of what's happening. and by the way, a bad night in asia. europe is getting off to a bad start. it's going to probably be a down open for the dow. plus, the "new york times" michael sch mimidt with his new reporting that the president's lawyers are scared to allow president trump sit down with bob mueller. they are scared donald trump can't tell the truth and they admit it on the front page of the "new york times." we have a packed 8:00 hour straight ahead. stay with us.

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join over 250,000 people who have chosen humira. ask your dermatologist about humira & go. our stock market has picked up since the election. >> we are doing fantastically at the present. the stock market is at an all-time high and continues to go up, up, up. >> we did, in fact, break 25,000, very tassubstantially bk it very easily. so i guess our new number is 30,000. >> had the other side gotten in, the market would have gone down 50% from where it was. 50% from where it was. remember that. >> you're seeing what's happening with the stock market. people are appreciating what we're doing. >> the stock market is smashing one record after another. >> all right. this is accelerating very steep drops now. we're 5.75%.

1500 points lower on the dow. now we're into territory that i am not familiar with. i am really scratching my head here, john, to think back to when i have seen a 6% drop in a day on the dow. >> welcome to "morning joe." >> that was a crazy day yesterday. >> a little bit volatile. >> yeah. >> that's the word to use, right? >> volatile, you get down to .5to .500 at one point. i went out and did my tilling in the garden 15 minutes later it was 1500 points down. >> you did exercise, which was a historic event. it's tuesday, february 6th. with us, we have former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve ratner. he's going to explain what happened yesterday. he knows everything about what happened and what's going to tell us. >> he's going to tell us exactly what you should do -- >> and author of the book "a world in disarray richard haus,"

and noah rothman is with us, nbc news reporter heidi prisbella is with us, as well, and john meachum. so it could be another highly volatile day for the market. stocks fell sharply yesterday. the numbers were stunning. the dow shed nearly 1200 points after falling as much as 1500. the index also fell below the 25,000 mark, erasing all of its gains for 2018. the s&p 500 pulled back more than 4%, its biggest one-day decline since august of 2011 and the nasdaq fell more than 3.5%. >> so, steve, here is -- things are so much different right now. where investors sit waiting for the new day to start, at least in america than they were, say, in 2008. you saw what was coming.

you understood layman was going down. you understood we had a bubble that was about to pop. right now, you can talk to the smartest minds in the world. they still can't tell you exactly why yesterday happened. was it because of an overheating economy? we both were talking about, you know, there's somebody talking about a possible 5% first quarter gdp. is it because of rising debt, is it because the tax cuts, the fear that that is going to overheat the economy. or is it just a natural pullback which, dare i say, being ignorant of stocks as much as i am, it seems to be time for a natural pullback. i go to three stock advisers, blood, sweat and tears, and they tell me whats goes up must come down. >> very he good. >> and it was time for this correction, wasn't it? >> yes. that is certainly one of the reasons and, in fact, we have a chart. our very first chart is going to

illustrate that for you which is to basically show you that we have had this long bull market going all the way back, really, to march of 2009. but just over this five-year period, the market has basically doubled. and so when you see this pullback up here, it doesn't really seem that unexpected, unusual, and appropriate given the breadth of the market rise over this long period of time. but the fact is that the market -- of all the reasons you threw out, the one probably easiest to understand is that the market doesn't actually always love good news. good news is sometimes bad news for the market. and what's bothering the market at the moment are signs that wages are start to go accelerate. if we look at this chart, in friday's unemployment report, you see although there's a bit of volatility around this, you can see that wage growth has started to accelerate. and wages are now 2.8% higher than they were a year ago. >> good news for main street. >> and it's good news for main street. we want wages to be higher. but what bothers the market is

higher wages means a -- potentially an overheated economy and it can mean rising interest rates. so if you look at what's been happening in the treasury market on my very last chart, you'll see that long-term treasuries, ten-year treasuries, which is a benchmark index after having sat at around 2.4% for a long time had been spiking upward. like that. and they got as high at about 2.85% the day before yesterday. higher interest rates are the enemy of the market because it gives people another place to put their money and earn a high return. >> well, and nobody likes, obviously, higher interest rates, but, again, money has been basically free for the past 15, 16 years. interest rates have been historically low. and so rising interest rates have to be coming at some point. the market will go down. but that actually gives the fed more options down the road, doesn't it? >> well, eventually if we have another crisis. in the short run, what the market is expecting is that the fed will increase interest rates

somewhat faster than they otherwise would have. that is, again, kind of the enemy of the stock market. that is sort of the nub of it. floating around all that, you have program trading, you have all kinds of different commodity traders in the market and the a lot of uncertainty. >> and, again, that's the main thing today is -- so we've had two really bad days going into what happens today when they ring the bell. i guess the uncertainty of traders not even knowing what happened and why it happened and if it's going to happen today certainly puts a lot of people like you in an uncomfortable position. whereas people like me who make their disposable income he at the dog track, well, we're just a little more relaxed. >> well, but remember that we've had a hell of a run, right? the market is basically back to where it was on january 1. >> but, again, donald trump, for

instance, donald trump saw what happened yesterday and it undercuts his -- one of his strongest arguments for why he's a great president. >> look at the markets. >> there is such great confidence. he doesn't know what's going to happen today. nobody knows. it could go down another thousand points. >> i think the one thing we can say with confidence is we will not be seeing tweets from donald trump about the stock market for a little while. >> which is a good thing. >> which is a very good thing. but here is a serious point. if you believe what is driving the market in the wrong way at the moment, is an economy overheating, wages growing, the tax cuts that were just passed add fuel to the fire. the atlanta fed, which tries to track this on a realtime basis, they think first quarter gdp could be over 5%. that sounds like good news. it is good news. except for the stock market. >> and except for the fact i would be shocked this week and next if it was 5%.

i started to hear over the past couple of days after the republicans past tax cuts when you had an economy that was at full employment, after you had an economy that was already growing, that had wages going up, moderately. but republicans passed a tax cut as a stimulus at the worst possible time. add to that the added debt and the news that we've been hearing over the past several days that trump and the government was going to have to borrow more money, what, $1 trillion more this year? you've been talking about the danger of debt for some time. i have, as well. it seems that the markets may be spooked by all the debt that's out there. >> yeah. it's one thing to stimulate the economy, cut taxes like we had to do a decade ago coming out of the crisis. something very different to do what we did when things are already going pretty well. it's taking the accelerator,

which was pressed, and putting it down to the floor. the short run thing is what steve was just talking about. the longer term thing will be that we're going to have to borrow a lot more money and that's at some point going to force us to raise rates, not to slow an economy, but simply to attract the chinese, the japanese, to continue buying it at the rate we need to buy it. >> when you're borrowing $20 trillion, that's actually crushing. for the country. it adds so much more to our deficit. >> and it's a bad cycle. so it's a two-fer, but it's a two-fer that works against you. it's a really bad cycle. >> the idea that at a time of prosperity we are going to have

a $1 trillion budget deficit again this fashion is something we should all be worried about. >> so president trump did not publicly comment on the market drop yet, but the white house did release a statement saying the president's focus is on our long-term economic fundamentals which remain exceptionally strong with strengthening u.s. economic growth, historically low unemployment, and increasing wages for american workers. the president's tax cuts and regulatory reforms will further enhance the u.s. economy and continue to increase prosperity for the american people. heidi, what are you hearing on capitol hill and what do you make of the president's statements? >> on capitol hill, republicans have long been uncomfortable with this president taking credit like he is for the stock market. this is not something we've seen previous presidents do exactly for the reasons what we saw yesterday. now we don't know whether this is a short-term adjustment or

whether we'll continue to see something acan it kin to a bear market. and i think the question now for republicans is at a when they're trying to hang their hat completely on this tax cut and the benefits of this tax cut going into 2018, to what extent will analysts now make a connection between that and to investor zooilt anxiety about the debt? because if i remember, there was one group that was almost unified in being skeptical about this tax plan and that was economists. there were economists sending in letters saying look, a at some point, concern about the debt and debt itself can become a drag on economic growth. still ahead, president trump accuses democrats of a crime that's punishable by death. the offense? not clapping enough during the state of the unit. as ugz, i you can see, i am on verge of laughing.

>> they didn't clap. they didn't stand up. in some countries, isn't that -- richard? john meachum, isn't that punishable by death in some countries if you don't stand and clap for the leader? >> right. >> remember that movie, the richard dreyfuss movie, "moon over paramor" or something? >> of course i do. i watch it every week. >> right between "mr. smith goes to washington" and "spifinal ta" >> we're going to be talking about that ahead. this is the story of green mountain coffee roasters dark magic told in the time it takes to brew your cup. first, we head to vermont. and go to our coffee shop. and meet dave. hey. why is dark magic so spell-bindingly good, he asks? let me show you. let's go. so we climb. hike. see a bear. woah. reach the top. dave says dark magic is a bold blend of coffee with rich flavors of uganda, sumatra, colombia and other parts of south america. like these mountains, each amazing on their own.

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yesterday, the president suggested the democrats were treasonous for not standing when he was at the state of the union. of course, there have -- of course, democrats during the age of obama, there are several examples trotted out yesterday

of democrats calling republicans treasonous or traitors or hostage takers. we republicans in the past accused during the clinton age of people being treasonist for not renaming post offices. i guess what i'm saying, we are the one that cane each other on the house floor, after all. but it is highly unusual for the president of the united states and his office to suggest that the opposing party is treasonist because they do what every opposing party at done at state of the unions for as long as there have been state of the unions. >> yeah. the way you set it up was perfect. basically, look at the early 1960s. you had in dallas job burgers, one world anti-viewing

conspirators attacking adelaid stevens i don't kn stephenson. that was even then the extreme and those outside the mainstream. here is the president of the united states practicing and speaking in the language of what richard hofsteter called the paranoid style. maybe we should all get a dollar for each time we see this is unprecedented. >> i think 1963 is a good time to go back to when talking about the fears of you have a president of the united states that is using the word treason which is punishable by death under the u.s. code and obviously there are fears of what that may lead some of his more unhinged followers to do. there are unhinged followers on both sides of the political

aisle. but there are people that have no guardrails. violence can happen. it's just like when he suggests a congressman must be stopped. i think that was in a tweet yesterday only a couple of months after an unhinged liberal shot the republican majority whip. >> i do think the cold war is the place to look at this. there was obviously oklahoma city. there was obviously a lot of violent language directed against president obama. but i think the last time you had this level of rhetoric, really, is the john birch world reacting against what was the american consensus at that time. and even then, to be clear, you

didn't have the president of the united states doing it. and so -- he was the target, john kennedy was the target. lyndon johnson was the target. so here we are again. >> and he didn't have his party in power protecting him. >> but that is the key point. john, he raised rofstetter's issue and the sense that everything is running away from you and that american virtues have ceased to exist therefore, you are at liberty to do a lot of things that would otherwise be prescribed. yet we're seeing this from the party in power. and this sort of paranoid power is lending credence from the offense office. we use the word unprecedented in a lot of ways that are part of this moment, but this feels

unprecedented, no? >> it is. and mika, get out your pen because it's going to be fen. >> got it. chufter arthur -- >> oh, lord. >> there is an even more relevant, i can, hfstetteressay. he used pseudo conservative and he argued that basically what was happeninged to the right in america was not classic conservativism, you don't undertake great movements. so basically, his argument was that the conservative tradition had been hijacked by a different kind of radical, people on the right who were as radical in their way as people on the far left. i think that's where we are.

harry truman once said -- and i'll leave you with harry truman -- that he always hoped the political parties would each have liberals and conservatives in them. because then you would just have, as you put it, two armed opposing camps and that's exactly what we have right now. coming up, new reporting that the president's lawyers are against him meeting with special counsel bob mueller. >> i don't get it. >> they would prefer he did not speak. they're like, mr. president -- >> they're insulting his intelligence. >> belief please, for the love of god, stop talking. >> do you think bob mueller sis that much -- >> why do his lawyers think bob mueller can outsmart him? >> but first, bill carin wes a check on the forecast. bill. >> are you ready for another winter storm inspect this looks to be a decent size one with an icy mess in the ohio valley. how about yesterday, do you see the pictures, interstate 44

through missouri, this was a volunteer firefighter putting this drone up in the air. there was like eight accidents on this stretch, many jackknifed tractor-trailers. what a mess. imagine trying to get in there and clean that up. it must have taken hours. people were stranded on the roads. that was only from an inch or two. this storm, much bigger than that. we have winter weather advisories. here is theize portion of the forecast. this is tonight. areas around ft. world, oklahoma, northern arkansas, just north of the ohio river into pennsylvania, we're dealing with freezing rain. the snow portion of this storm, minor. but look what we have here in the northeast for you. this will be starting early in the morning for philadelphia and new york city for the morning rush hour and overspreading all of the northeast and new england as we go through the day. coastal areas, you get a thump

open snow and you'll trevor over to rain during the day. so a mess in the northeast as we go throughout your wednesday. today is the day to get anything done if you have to run errands. you're watching ""morning joe."" we'll be right back. >> tech: at safelite autoglass we know that when you're spending time with the grandkids... ♪ music >> tech: ...every minute counts. and you don't have time for a cracked windshield. that's why at safelite, we'll show you exactly when we'll be there. with a replacement you can trust. all done sir. >> grandpa: looks great! >> tech: thanks for choosing safelite. >> grandpa: thank you! >> child: bye! >> tech: bye! saving you time... so you can keep saving the world. >> kids: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪

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did you read, the president's lawyers think he's too stupid to be interviewed by bob mueller? his own lawyers are telling the "new york times" that he's not smart enough to keep up with bob mueller. >> yeah, but i think he refers to his own head for advice. >> we've got the "new york times" michael schmidt. please, mr. president, don't talk to special counsel robert mueller. >> yeah. >> michael schmidt, why with the president's lawyers thinking bob mueller is smarter than president trump? >> with i think president trump think he's the best person to make his arguments, legally or otherwise. but let's say the president goes along with his lawyers. the problem is that he's probably going to lose in court

because mueller will subpoena him, it will go up to the supreme court. if you look at nixon and the tapes issue, back during watergate, nixon lost there and had to hand the tapes over. and if you talk to legal folks, they say, look, this is pretty clear. the president has to respond to legitimate requests from law enforcement officials. so even though everyone in washington thinks this is a bad idea for him to sit down with mueller, it looks like it will probably happen at some point. >> and, michael, it's said that one of the most fascinating experiences in modern washington was to talk to jim baker. the white house chief of staff under president reagan, treasury secretary, secretary of state about the front page of the "new york times." it said that secretary baker could sit with the front page and take a sharpie and absolutely deconstruct it in the way margaret meade would disconstruct an ecosystem in the

south seas telling you exactly where each leak had come from, exactly whose agenda it was. my question is, in the great wilderness of mirrors that is washington, and i know you can't answer this, but i'm asking it for the record, is it possible that the people who were putting out, that they think the president is not sharp enough to keep up with bob mueller, are desperate for trump to try to keep up with bob mueller? is there any more -- is there any more certain way to get this prideful president to take that deposition -- >> i don't think anybody would stoop -- >> than to say he's not smart enough to do it? >> i don't think that the president's lawyers trust him in this situation. so i don't think that is the aim. what this may be is an effort to try and put mueller back on his heels to try and make it clear to mueller that they're not going to give in here to a free willing interview, to try and get better terms for an

interview. i think in a dream scenario, they would have the ability the to provide written answers to questions. i think my guess is that mueller would not go for that. that seems too elementary for a president. but if the white house and the lauer could completely control what was coming out of the approximated in the sense of a written statement, that would be ideal. the other thing is, they would like better terms, more narrow issuers. but i think one of the certainty is not even the question of whether the president will be truthful, but it will be that the president goes on and on. the president likes to talk and will talk for others on end certainly to the press if he could and the president may feel a need to explain himself to mueller to say look, let me tell you how this is or why this happened and that could open up

all these new avenues to mueller that could have the president going on and on. and i think that is something they're concerned about. >> michael schmidt, thank you so much. we appreciate it. coming up, a bipartisan immigration plan has emerged in the senate, but president trump is calling it a total waste of time. the issue was key in the last government shutdown. what role will it play this time? [ click, keyboard clacking ]

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welcome back to "morning joe." this is the headline this morning in the "wall street journal," stock market plunge erases 2018 gains. noah, you've been following the futures and, of course, the

market opens in 24 minutes. but even the futures keep going down. >> yeah. it looks like it's going to be down about 300 points if it stay these way until 9:00. >> market opens at 9:30. again, i'm confused. i'll track betting opens at -- >> the house intelligence committee voted unanimously yesterday to -- >> 9:30, i'd like to have a job that starts at 9:30. >> and ends at 4:00. i think they work around the clock. that responds to the ones that the republicans released last week, the democratic memo which accuses the justice department and the fbi of misconduct in their warrant applications to spy on former trump campaign adviser carter page. the white house says it has received the memo and will follow the same process and procedure will the minority memo as it did when it received the memo from the majority. meanwhile, president trump shared his utmost respect for the author of the republican memo tweeting, quote, representative devin nunes, a

man of tremendous courage and grit, may some day be recognized as a great american hero for what he has exposed and what he has had to endure. >> yeah, that's not going to happen. in an interview yesterday, nunes, this person that the president is talking about, said that president trump and trump campaign foreign policy adviser george papadopoulos hardly knew each other. of course, despite the fact that donald trump told "the washington post" in the spring of 2016 that he was one of his closest foreign policy advisers. and here they were in the spring of 2016 talking to each other. and that was, of course, a photo that the president shared himself.

>> if papadopoulos was such a major figure, why didn't you get a warrant on him? if papadopoulos was such a major figure, you had nothing on him, you know, the guy lied. as far as we can tell, papadopoulos never knew who trump was -- never even met with the president. and getting drunk in london and talking to other -- and talking to diplomates saying that you don't like hillary clinton, i think it's scary that our intelligence agencies would take that and use it against american citizens. >> i think what is far nor scary, devin nunes, and i am sure the overwhelming majority of americans would agree with me, that you had the house intel committee and you just said on national television that president trump had never even met george papadopoulos and suggested he didn't know who he was when he told "the washington

post" in the spring of 2016 that his two top foreign policy advisers were george papadopoulos and carter page. let that sink in. >> joining us now, a member of the house intel committee joaquin castro of texas. andrea mishel, noah rothman is back with us, as well. >> congressman, let me ask you the same question we asked eric earlier this morning. if it was such a bad thing to release the nunes memo and if the nunes memo actually was all bark and no bite, it was a -- >> maybe even counterproductive. >> in fact, it really does hurt the president much more because it shows the timeline goes back to papadopoulos and undercuts all of nunes's arguments. if that's the case, why should the democrats make this situation even worse and release

their memo? >> no, that's a great question and it's a fair question. and it's something that we talked about. and if you look at that transcript from the public hearing that we had, i said very clearly that i would prefer that neither memo be released because the public can't see the underlying source material. that said, once the republican memo was released, which we believe contains misstatements of fact, inaccuracies and goes after the intelligence community and goes after the integrity of the fisa process and the fbi in particular and the justice department, we thought that it was more important at that point to make sure that we correct the record. it's certainly up for debate, but on the whole, that's what we believe. >> andrea. >> why not let it sink of its own weight and not risk that you will also be accused of compromising security and undercutting the mueller investigation by releasing a memo that will inevitably at least confirm the release that the republicans did of sources and possible methods? >> well, a few things. i think for a while, we also

didn't know whether the republicans or the white house was going to run their memo through the fbi and give them a chance to actually take out anything that might be sensitive information or, you know, that talks about sources and methods. the other thing is it's impossible to predict how it's going to be received in the media and among the american people. so we believe that the safer thing and the more prudent thing to dos was to get ahead of it and try to correct the record. >> noah. >> so it seems a as though devin nunes has gotten out in front of this thing when he confessed yesterday morning in a footnote that there was, in fact, the disclosure of the political origins of this document, the dossier that led to this warrant. the goal posts moved a little bit. now they're saying there needs to be more elaboration of what those political origins were. but it seems as though we're taking the wind a little bit out of this. and you're saying americans can't see this affidavit, the

source material and the warrant. can you guarantee that? can you guarantee this debate is not going to progress to the point where we're going to have to release this material? >> no, i can't. i can't tell you where devin nunes and the majority are going to take this investigation. i think that they're basically at this point, especially because they've alluded to releasing other memos about the state department, for example, at least i saw some reporting on that, that tells me that there's a real effort here to run some kind of parallel distraction investigation that takes away from the real purpose of this whole thing, which was to get to the bottom of how russia interfered with our 2016 elections and whether any americans helped them do it. >> i've got to say, i find it so disappointing that some conservative writers and conservative thinkers that i've respected in the past actually blew past that issue that you were talking about, which is nunes already admitted that they went to the judge and explained the source of the material to the judge.

yet even after the nunes material was written, conservative people online were writing columns saying that it was a question that was open to debate whether this fisa judge actually knew where the material came from when even nunes admitted that it was right there. >> and the congressman later followed up that it wasn't properly explained to the american public where the origins of this were. the american public is not privy to this. definitionally nor should they be. but we're moving the goal posts further now saying the judge maybe didn't read this footnote or didn't know that political origins unspecified meant the democratic national committee. i think you can probably draw a straight line between opposition research and a campaign year against the republican nominee to the democratic party. >> also, andrea, anyone who has ever spoken with a fisa judge, deep, deep, deep off the record,

knows how seriously they take their job. and they are selected and they -- all of these have been selected by john roberts. and every single fisa judge i have ever spoken with on deep background are all extraordinarily serious people and are not like devin nunes. they would sit there, they would read the application, their clerks will read the footnotes, everybody -- that judge will know more about what they're asking for than any of the lawyers. and we'll grill them and always does. >> it's such a serious process. and, in fact, as the congressman well knows, the fisa law was just reauthorized. if there were issues among nunes and his group about the fisa law, that is the place where if they weren't going to go to the judge and go to the justice department privately and call

people in, they should have dealt with it during reauthorization of fisa, which just happened. and that's where to question the process. not to do it in a republican memo. >> congressman, if i can switch gears here and ask you about the potential for a deal on daca and whether or not it will be tied to a government shutdown. >> well, i think, you know, nobody wants a government shutdown. at the same time, americans want us to do something on daca. 83% of americans believe that the daca recipients, the dreamers, should be allowed to stay here. i believe that we actually have promising legislative bills that have been filed, templates, basically, to start the negotiation. whether it's a mccain-coons, even lindsey graham's bill and the durbin bill. but we have to start somewhere. and right now everything that goes by the white house, they categorically say they're not going to take it. that's made it very difficult. >> congressman. thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you. up next, "the washington

post's" ruth marcus takes on the president's latest attacks that democrats are treasonist for not giving him a standing ovation during a state of the union. plus, we'll set the stage for the opening bell with stocks poised for another massive drop this morning. . but some people still like cable. just like some people like banging their head on a low ceiling. drinking spoiled milk. camping in poison ivy. getting a papercut. and having their arm trapped in a vending machine. but for everyone else, there's directv. for #1 rated customer satisfaction over cable, switch to directv and get a $200 reward card. call 1.800.directv and i heard that my cousin's so, wife's sister's husband was a lawyer, so i called him. but he never called me back! if your cousin's wife's sister's husband isn't a lawyer, call legalzoom and we'll connect you with an attorney. legalzoom. where life meets legal.

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>> i hope you don't feel uncomfortable. >> there we go again. at the "washington post," ruth marcus. she's out with two new columns that are subtle. see if you can read between the lines. trump's vile new attack on democrats and trump is far worse than nixonian. >> we'll try to figure it out. also with us, the author and former special counsel to the clinton white house, out with the new book "the unmaking of the president 2016." i'm so glad you say this. because after the election, i went to church and i had all these democrats come up going, oh, they stole votes in michigan. they stole votes in wisconsin. the russians. i was like, dude, it wasn't the russian, it was james comey. and you wrote an entire book. which of course makes the entire republican fbi conspiracy so ludicrous because the fbi

director elected donald trump and you have to prove it. >> trump number one is the morning october 28th -- >> preview -- >> morning, 1:00 p.m., was comey letter. >> hold on a second, guy, he's holding up charts. you can actually show the charts. >> i like that. >> really, tv, guys. >> 5.9% the morning of october 28th. and her trend line is up in real clear politics. that's longer than -- that's larger than obama -- >> okay. >> chart number two. look at the chart that starts on october 28th. comey hits and this is the three states, michigan, pennsylvania and wisconsin. >> 11 days. >> and she's up by 5 and 6 points. and then finally here's the electoral map. according to real clear politics. without the comey letter, she wins by 232 electoral votes. it's just simply math. >> normally i would say you know what though, a lot of times

there are swings the last week of the campaign. i remember when we heard the news, we both said oh, my god, this is going to change everything. and it did. just like that. >> we definitely thought that. >> i was on the clinton plane. the minute that happened, we knew. >> here's the irony. >> those pictures from that day on that plane are -- >> devastating. >> devastating. >> the nunes memo and the conspiracy that republicans are now trying to sell, that the fbi is a left-wing pro-clinton conspiracy, are you kidding? in fact, the fbi's a great institution. donald tru donald trump attacking the institution of the fbi rather than individual members who hurt hillary clinton far more than they did -- >> noah. >> so the time line now is sort of shifting from what we understand happened. the october 28th letter occurs because james comey is informed that e-mails who were forwarded were on anthony weiner's computer. weiner was under investigation for improper contacts with a

minor. mccabe sat on those e-mails for a month. we understand that now. the donation story drops in "the wall street journal" october 24. the e-mails drop and october 28th he refuses himself, number one. does your book deal with the fact that mr. mccabe should have and could have informed mrmr. comey of these e-mails and the time between would have occurred far earlier? >> the irony is mccabe not reporting right away, slow-walking the new york city a gents, slow-walking, four month, reporting to washington, it would have been over in six days -- >> that's the lunacy, again, suggesting that mccabe worked to hurt hillary clinton. if he had released that information -- >> she'd be president of the united states. >> it would have been absorbed and she would have been president of the -- >> i know that he advised comey to write letter that turned the election around and i know that the fbi had the information

early october and could have done it within six days. >> whatever he was trying to do, he helped elect donald trump by not releasing it. >> reading a man's motives is unfair -- >> help me out here. yes, there are all these different players you write about who passed the information at inopportune times, but isn't it weiner who had the information on his laptop, isn't that where the responsibility begins, or the problems for hillary clinton? >> so i don't -- >> let ruth answer. ruth. >> you know, it's like the passover song. it would have been enough. if this hadn't happened and if this hadn't happened and if this hadn't happened, hillary clinton would have been elected president. but the reality is we are where we are. but there were a lot of, you know, you can unspool, unravel it back to a lot of different things but, boy, i think you're

also right, mika, if not for anthony weiner, a lot of things. >> a lot, a lot, a lot of things. >> as hillary clinton used to say back during the '90s when she were in the middle of their investigation, would have, could have, should have. >> can i quickly respond to my old friend ruth? two facts can be true. there are lots of reasons why she lost. but for james comey, she'd be president of the united states and i proved that in my book. >> so ruth, i want to go to your column where you say people comparing donald trump to richard mill houhouse nixon is real, real attack on richard millhouse nixon. explain. >> pretty astonishing for those of us who grew up on watergate and the watergate hearings. but here's the thing. though nixon totally tried to corrupt the system, he also at least pledged loyalty and purported to work in the system. for example, archibald cox, the

watergate special prosecutor, was a very close ally of the kennedy family. ted kennedy was there at his swearing in, i believe, as watergate special prosecutor. of richard nixon, though he privately seethed about who was running that investigation, never publicly attacked him as biased or corrupt or anything else. think about how that contrasts with the way donald trump has yellled about mueller. >> he's attacked the very people he's appointed. >> yes. i mean -- >> when the skupreme court said he had to turn over the tapes, even though he knew that was the end of his presidency, he complained. >> in the end, he complied. >> ultimately, men with perverted tendencies being protected, and then things

getting out of hand. i mean, seriously. you -- when anthony wiener's story first broke, he should have been out of the picture. he should have not had access to any of his wife's laptops. hillary clinton's e-mails should not have been on weiner's laptop. i feel bad you're focused on comey who had to make a decision about what to do about this information who came his way. it's not his fault. >> let me just say that i feel less bad because -- >> a sexter to kids had a laptop -- >> that was a terrible mistake. what the fbi did and how comey handled that in writing that letter, when he wrote it was wrong in every way. holding a press conference after he didn't indict her and then indicting her politically was wrong in every way. and i could list 1,000 things that barack obama and the justice department did wrong. with the president weighing in on the investigation.

>> rod roserosenstein, the depu attorney general, wrote a memo that was exactly right. no prosecutor could possibly agree with what comey did. >> final thoughts. >> ruth marcus, thank you. lenny davis, thank you as well. his new book is the "unmaking of the president mika, what are yo thoughts now? >> i think there's many ways to look at this and we all are focused on comey. it's okay. because i'll look like i'm obsessed. i'm just trying to be fair. >> wait. >> in our final moments -- >> can i hold your hand? >> no, you cannot hold my hand. when wall street -- >> you're making everybody nervous. >> what's going on? >> as you say, half an hour or so to go and we're expected to open low. the dow's down 635 points, about 3%, following that 4.6% decline yesterday and a 4% fall last week. it puts us very much in that

so-called correction territory when we're down around about 10% from the recent highs. and so it is expected to be another tough day on wall street. we're down 635 points as we look at it. guys. >> all right, cnbc's wilbert frost, thank you. i want to toss to stephanie ruhle. i have a quick question for you. >> i don't know if she can talk back. >> i can always talk back. >> stephanie -- >> i specialize in back talk. >> when the market was collapsing yesterday, you were great, great insights and told everybody stay calm, which is great. i have some advice for you. if you're engaged to somebody and they don't even let you, like, hold their hand, should i be concerned? should that be a panic? >> of course not, joe. you know what marriage is like. nobody who's married to you ever wants to hold your hand. it's a precursor for what the rest of your life is going to look like. >> i'll hold your hand, it'