were put at risk by hillary clinton. >> so, for someone whose campaign was built on attacking opponent's handling of classification, there is a disconnect at the white house. for the last year, donald trump received clazfied documents from a staffer, who get this, from a staffer who was not authorized to see them, to have any access to them. the president personally disclosed highly classified information to top russian diplomats. and he encouraged house republicans to release a memo about the most secretive of fisa courts. the president's son-in-law, well, he handles classified documents on a daily basis, despite the fact, like so many people around him, he doesn't even have a security clearance yet. wow. imagine if hillary clinton ran

her white house that way. i mean, we would be hearing it about it, well, non-stop from republicans who are going back three or four years still attacking hillary clinton because they don't want to look at what's happening right now in front of them. welcome to "morning joe." it is monday morning, february 12th. with us we have political writer for the new york times, nick confessore, "morning joe" economic analyst, steve ratner, we've got president of the council on foreign relations and author of the run away best selling book "a world in disarray" coming to a food channel near you soon richard haase, and katy kay and heidi prisbella. mika will be back with us tomorrow. let's talk about john kelly and

reports of the friction around the house that surround the chief of staff, john kelly, and his actions as they related to the resignation of white house staff secretary rob porter. of course, over those allegations of domestic abuse. tuesday night, kelly said he, quote, is proud to serve alongside porter. on wednesday afternoon the white house said porter had kelly's, quote, full confidence and trust. on wednesday night, kelly claimed in a statement to be, quote, shocked by the new allegations. interesting word new. then on friday afternoon kelly told reporters that he had previously known little about the claims against porter and that as soon as he did they acted swiftly. >> there's a lot of reporting about the timeline and when you found out about things. can you just verify about that. >> tuesday night. >> you found out tuesday night?

>> is that just the picture you found out about? >> the entirety of the allegation? >> you had some indication, right now? last year about the nature -- >> in november, i got an update on some of the investigations and the update was that there was some things that that needed to be looked into. literally, that was it. and tuesday night i found out. and that's what i'm saying. >> you made the decision 40 minutes after you found out. did you tell him tuesday night. >> actually he made the decision. >> so, kelly reportedly told a similar story to west wing staffers on friday morning, but "the new york times" reported, quote, two people familiar with the comment said that most of the staff appeared incredulous. one person said several people in the room knew that the timeline kelly had just presented was false. another way to put that, everybody in the room knew he was lying.

and axios reported that some senior white house official strongly encouraged him to stay and fight and claims he never misrepresented anything to kelly which mcmulvaney claimed yesterday. >> rob porter came to the president of the united states and the chief of staff and said, look, i'm being accused of these things. they are not true. for the president and the chief of staff to give that person the benefit of the doubt is probably a very normal and human reaction. as soon as rob porter was proven wrong and proven he was not telling us the truth when the photos came out on wednesday, he was gone almost immediately. >> all right. now on friday, abc and "the new york times" reporting that kelly had said he was willing to step down. kelly responded to nbc news that he didn't offer to resign. a lot of back and forth going on here. itconfusing. we'll tell you what, when we're confused and just want to know the facts.

we wish somebody at the white house would give us the facts, well, we go to kellyanne conway. yesterday the counselor to the president, kellyanne conway said that john kelly has the president's full confidence, which actually sounds a lot like what kellyanne conway said about another aide, exactly one year ago today. >> i spoke with the president last night about this very issue and he wanted me to reemphasize to everyone, including this morning, that ehe has full confidence in his current chief of staff, john kelly. >> basic conversation, does the national security adviser right now now enjoy the full confidence of president trump? >> yes, general flynn does enjoy the full confidence of the president. this is a big week for general flynn. >> and in fact, it was a big week for general flynn. he was gone a few hours later. in fact, it's been a big year for general flynn since that morning. i think if i'm not mistaken,

kelly ann was responding to things that were said on "morning joe" and rushed out and did what she does so often, said things that have no connection to the truth. now we're hearing that general kelly has full confidence of president trump. if, in fact, that is the case that is the exact opposite of people i've heard from inside the house and also several people close to president trump that he doesn't have the full confidence of president trump. president trump is finished with john kelly and that staff members around john kelly can't wait for him to go. just reporting the facts. so nick confessore, one of the more remarkable things over this past weekend and one of the things that people close to donald trump have been upset about and especially republicans on the hill that already see like a minus 30 gender gap with women, is the way that donald

trump and the white house took a story of a staff member beating two of his wives and turned what would have been a one-day story, you're fired. get your stuff out of here. that's repulsive. we'll have nothing to do with you. and they have managed to turn it into a six-day story. with donald trump actually going out basically saying believe the accused and he never mentioned anything about the women who had been beaten. >> if kelly is fired, it could be a six, seven, nine or ten-day story. full confidence, that phrase has been a kiss of death in this white house. so we'll see how much longer he lasts and how long the confidence lasts. i will point out, you know, a lot of this goes back to the president. he has a pattern persistently and consistently of always believing the men in these situations. in fact, there's a great list in the times today. rob porter, roy moore, roger ailes, in fact, the only person

who he hasn't believed in bill clinton, in terms of denying allegations of sexual abuse or sexual assault. so the president's gut instinct is to believe the men. steve wynn. he's denying it and therefore the denial is credible. in doing that, it limits the response of the white house if the boss is saying, look, let's dig in. let's stand by our guy. i don't believe this. it's going to have this long-term effect. >> well, david ignatius, it's not the first time this has been said. hillary clinton had a hard time attacking donald trump for treating women badly when she was in close proximity to a man who treated women badly for so long and many people, including maureen doud suggested she went along with that behavior. now donald trump finds himself in the position, the first time he says, yes, i believe the

women, then the 10, 11, 12, 15 women came forward with sexual harassment claims against him, well, suddenly the questions are, well, let's go through each one of these women, mr. president. do you believe them as well? >> any time he opens the door to taking these allegations of abuse, sexual harassment seriously then we're in the space where his own conduct becomes the thing that people will be talking about. he probably knows that. that's probably one reason for the insistence. due process, let's wait until the facts are in. what's astonishing to me, joe, about the rob porter story, the way it shows the breakdown of the most important jobs of vetting the most sensitive jobs in the white house, the basic information about his past, about the allegations of abuse began to be assembled a year ago. kelly himself says that by

november there was -- there were specific warnings. how do we get from november until now without an aggressive effort led by the white house? these allegations are serious. the fbi does not assemble this material without the expectation that it will be acted on. that there are serious people who will use it to make good judgments about who gets security clearances. i think on that one they've got to really walk this back week by week and explain to us what happened. >> david, that may be actually what drags this story along even further now, the security clearance issue, where it's not just porter who didn't have security clearance. of course now you look and find out that jared kushner, who is supposed to be running middle east peace for them and supposed to be doing so many other things for them, hasn't been able to get a top security clearance. then this weekend you started getting reports that maybe more than a dozen people, 15 people

in the white house, may not have their security clearances either. people that have having access to classified information are passing them along. how dangerous is that and could that be, david, a way that this story drags on for weeks, maybe months? >> there were a lot of people not in the category of necessarily being abusers but who have unresolved issues that presenting the final presentation of the security clearance. getting security clearance from everything we know is a complicated process that takes a lot of time, the fbi is overwhelmed. but a year plus in these things should be resolved. if they're not being resolved it's because nobody is driving them at the top. john kelly was supposed to be the person to come in and shape up this undisciplined fractious white house. guess what, here we are with john kelly looks like the knives

are out in a way this weekend. i can't remember when. it's extraordinary. the issue is some of these people, the reason they can't get the clearances finalized may be specific pieces of information as with porter that could leave someone open to being blackmailed. the fact that two ex-wives were making these allegations, documenting them and they're not being publicly disclosed leaves that person open to any kind of manipulation. >> which is of course, richard haase, a reason why the fbi warned the white house, warned the white house a year ago, and those warnings from the federal bureau of investigation, doing what they're supposed to do, those warnings just brushed to the side. so here we are. >> it's exactly right now. the whole security clearance process on one hand is about character. it's to find out if there's things going out in people's lives that precludes them or rule them out from getting

certain jobs. but the issue is vulnerabilityv. you don't want people to have security clearances with drinking problems or drug problems, things that either would get in the way of the job performance or leave them open to blackmail in particular obviously from foreign governments. and the idea -- >> right now. >> early on in the process, the yellow lights come up. i've gone through the process, as has anyone who served at the white house in government dozens of times. you go to business associates, personal associates and so forth. i would expect that we're talking about january, february, march that in the initial or even earlier during the transition. these things have probably been known for a year. we're not talking months. we're talking a full year. >> of course. >> where people had full access. >> of course. the first thing you do when everybody is getting a security clearance, they're going to a lot of people and probably going

to start with ex-wives. the fbi, this had to come early on in the process. this had to have been known for a very long time. the warnings came to them a long time ago and they chose to ignore the warnings. as david ignatius said, warnings that could have held this guy up for blackmail or any number of things that the white house actually should have been concerned about. john kelly should have been concerned about, the president of the united states should have been concerned about. as we know this weekend instead of talking about this head on, the president had one bizarre tweet after another bizarre tweet that left these abused women in a position to go out and write op eds for time and speak on television saying, wait a second, i was beaten up by this man and you're worried about him and not me. >> yeah. well, they just didn't feel they were being believed. president trump spoke out in apparent defense of these --

both of these high-level aides who resigned last week over allegations of domestic abuse. he had sympathetic words for rob porter who resigned after publication of photographs over a black eye that she says had given her. >> well, we wish him well. he worked very hard. i found out about it recently, and i was surprised by it. but we certainly wish him well. it's an obviously tough time for him. he did a very good job when he was in the white house. and we hope he has a wonderful career and hopefully he will have a great career ahead of him. but it was very sad when we heard about it. and certainly he's also very sad. now, he also, as you probably know, he says he's innocent. and i think you have to remember that. he said very strongly yesterday

that he's innocent. so, you'll have to talk to him about that. but we absolutely wish him well. did a very good job while he was at the white house. >> so, i just -- two or three phrases just stand out and they really are shocking. this is a tough time for him. the president's words. it's a very sad time, very sad time for him. we wish him very well in the future. again, unbelievable the president in those comments made the man accused of beating up two women the victim. >> yeah. he made a choice, the president, right now there and he sided with rob porter. the other thing you notice about that comment, those remarks that the president gave in the oval, absolutely no mention of the women whatsoever let alone a word of sympathy for them.

then later on friday, the white house's speech writer david sorenson also resigned ahead of a story that his ex-wife told the fbi last october during an on going background check that he had been violent and emotionally abusive, claims that sorenson denies in a statement to nbc news. on saturday morning, the president tweeted people's lives are being shattered and destroyed by mere allegations. some are true, some are false, some are old and some are new. there is no recovery for someone falsely accused. life and career are gone. is there no such thing any longer as due process? in an essay for "time" magazine, jennie says in part, on friday, a friend and i watched as the president of the united states sat in the oval office and wished my husband future success. i can't say i was surprised. but when donald trump repeated twice that rob declared his

innocence, i was floored. what was his intent in emphasizing that point? my friend turned to me and said, the president of the united states just called you a liar. yes. and i guess heidi, that's the point, right now? time and again from this white house it seems that the president sides with men in these situations as nick confessore was listing earlier from the new york times and not with the women who are accusing them. >> and nick read off a good tip sheet there at the beginning on all of the times that this has been the case that the president's reflexive instinct is to rally around these men, whether it be roger ailes or bill o'reilly or roy moore. that is something that is now starting to create a pattern, i think, also in the minds of some voters. look, this is an interesting statistic that's just come out in the washington post as well on a new poll showing that coming in president trump actually had the support of 52% of white women. this is one of the areas where

we're seeing some of the biggest declines since election day, his approval has dropped in this group by 10 points. and what is also interesting is that as a sub set of that strong disapproval which measures intensity, is up about 12 points, up to 51%. so, we cannot draw this back to any one instance, but certainly these women voted for president trump despite the existence of that "access hollywood" video tape. his past was known. but these incidents combined with his policymaking agenda is having an effect on his standing with this important group of white women voters. >> and nick confessore, if you're looking at the political fallout of this story, heidi just really i think touched on the most important part of this story when it comes to politics and what the long-term fallout may be. and that is that a gender gap

that was already extraordinarily pronounced, a gender gap that helped democrats to a shocking result in the legislature and the legislative races there and also in the governor's races that helped doug jones get elected president of the united states -- i mean, let's not get ahead of ourselves that helped doug jones get elected senator of alabama, you know, in alabama, any position is more powerful than the president of the united states, of course. but you look at what's happened in the past and then you look specifically at college educated white women and see the massive -- those most likely to vote in the midterms and you see not only the massive gender gap but also the intensity, which is what determines who wins mid-term elections. and republicans on capitol hill have every reason to be fretting this morning over the fact that

donald trump has taken a horrible situation for those in swing districts and just made it that much worse. >> well, look, joe, he couldn't be out there talking about the tax cut, the trump bonuses so to speak. instead he's talking about the issue on which he's most ill equipped to talk about which is women and sexual abuse. and he has a whole bunch of republicans out there defending him on these grounds who are not talking about the tax cut and the economy and job growth. look, it's not just the polls, joe, as you said. it's the intensity. it's that women are coming out to run for office, to give campaign contributions to democrats. they are angry. and for some reason the equation that didn't work against hillary clinton with the two of them head-to-head where people were making a choice for him instead of these allegations is somehow coming undone and women are really firead up and are ready o come out and vote and are very

angry as what they see as a culture in trump's white house, in the administration and around the country. >> yeah. and look at that approval rating among women, 29% approval rating among women. 65% disapprove. abc news washington post poll. steve ratner, of course, that is if democrats are going to have a huge november, this is going to be -- we've heard in the past about the year of the women, the year of the women. this truly is the year of the women. we saw it in virginia, saw it in alabama. i think we'll see it in pennsylvania coming up in a couple of weeks. but this really does put republican candidates in just such a terrible position as they prepare for the midterms this fall. >> yeah. i would just say as someone who traffics a bit in democratic politics and democratic party

circles that the level of energizing among men and women but obviously particularly women is something we have not seen in a very long time. there are 390 women not all democrats but most of them at the moment running for the house of representatives. there are 49 women running for senate seats. it's just a level of energy and anger and desire to get back in power that we haven't seen in a long time. can i just say one thing going back to this whole clearance issue because i went through the clearance process as did richard a couple of times. it's not as simple as -- it's simply not a question of the fbi going out and doing interviews. you fill out many detail forms when you apply one of these jobs. but also a questionnaire that has many, many questions, goes all the way back to bill clinton when they realize they didn't know this stuff. is there anything in the past that could embarrass the president or anything about this or anything about that. and either rob porter lied on those forms or the white house

didn't pay attention or the white house knew it and spent over a year because you have to fill out those forms before you get in the door and didn't do anything about it. i would simply say and i'm not here to defend president obama particularly but i don't think it was a coincidence there was not one single example of something like this happening in the obama administration because they went through what they like to call on capitol hill regular order. >> yeah. and they just didn't have from the very beginning -- they just didn't have a transition team in place. kri christie was supposed to be running transition but the didn't like chris christie. then they put mike pence there in transition. you know, a lot of this has to fall on mike pence. i know he likes to say that he doesn't know anything, but if you're in charge of transition and don't set up the proper screening processes to make sure that these sort of people don't get into the white house, then that's a serious problem. but there are no systems in

place, no competent systems in place that would take care of this sort of screening. when the fbi does come to you and says this guy has a serious problem, you can't just turn a blind eye to it. if you do, this is the sort of thing that happens. and i'm afraid for this white house this story is just going to continue because now people are going to start digging in and trying to figure out how many more people inside the white house can't pass security clearance screenings. and i suspect it will be a lot of people who have too much access to too much classified information, which, of course, goes back to the great irony of the first clip, which is donald trump actually judging hillary clinton for being too sloppy with classified information. wow. if you look at how he's run his presidency in the first year, it's not a close call.

donald trump far more reckless. still ahead on "morning joe," major developments from overseas. tensions between israel and iran are boiling over. we're going to talk to david ignatius about that who is just back from a trip. and also vice president pence says the united states is ready to talk with north korea. richard haase and david ignatius will also weigh in on those issues straight ahead on "morning joe." oh, we have charts by ratner. ♪ (whispering) with the capital one venture card, you'll earn unlimited double miles on every purchase, every day. not just airline purchases. think about all the double miles you could be earning. (yelling) holy moly, that's a lot of miles! shh-h-h-h! ( ♪ ) shh! what's in your wallet? man: shh-h-h!

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let's great straight to the news from the korean peninsula where vice president mike pence says the united states is ready to sit down with the north koreans. pence made those remarks to "the washington post" on his way home from the winter olympics in south korea. the white house official has confirmed the accuracy of the report to nbc news, however, stressing that this does not

mean that the u.s. is changing its stance that north korea must denuclearize, nor does it mean a change in the maximum pressure campaign against pyongyang. instead, pence tells "the washington post" this new position, is quote, maximum pressure and engagement at the same time. joe, how do they square this? because the issue has always been we'll sit down and talk with you if you denuclearize but north korea said we would not denuclearize. why would we do that? that's giving up our biggest advantage. >> and everyone has known from the beginning north korea is not going to denuclearize. maybe it's just the united states realizes, richard haase, that is a nonstarter and they've played hardball as long as they can and now it's time to negotiate. let me ask you your response other than certain members of the national media treating the north koreans arriving in south korea much like the press and screaming teenage girls treated

the beetles landing at jfk 53 years ago, it was bizarre. but other than that bizarre positive reaction to the north koreans, what was your take on what happened this past weekend between the north and the south? reason for hope? >> that's the most interesting story the invitation by the north koreans to the president of south korea for a summit. it's a reason for hope and concern. it's no accident that the north koreans are focussing on this access of diplomacy a north/south dialogue. the fact that south korea's priority and our's are not one in the same. the united states doesn't want to look like it's 100% opposed to negotiations. we should be talking to the north. we should be advancing our own priorities, our own agenda. we have to decide on this denuclearization point. if we're serious and this is a prerequisite, then forget about it. it's a nonstarter. if however we wanted to finesse

it. >> richard, can we talk about that for a second? you and i both know if you're a tyrant and running north korea and the united states is demanding that you give up your wmds, the united states is demanding you give up your nuclear program, all you have to do is look at what happened to gadhafi in libya. he gave up his wmds. i remember you and me saying it in realtime. you kill a man that does what you tell him to do, give up his wmd program which he was keeping to protect himself, and all you're doing is telling every other tyrant never give them up. why would kim jong-un give up weapons when the united states track record is the second he does, they'll find in a reason to go in and kill him. >> he won't. he looks to ukraine, they lost crimea after they gave up their nuclear weapons and got all sorts of international guarantees for doing so. they looked at iraq. we could finesse this if we wanted to, joe.

we could have a position that we could say the long-term goal must be to denuclearize the korean peninsula. in the short run, we have got to live with it and the question is do we freeze the production? do we freeze testing and so forth. what i'm hoping is the administration gets smoked on this issue. we better watch this space the north/south conversation. yeah, there's reasons for hope, but we've got to be really careful that a dynamic doesn't get established here where our interests are put to the side. >> i'm so glad, richard, that you brought up ukraine as well because a lot of people just suggested that we turn a blind eye to what putin did in crimea, overlooking the fact that we made a guarantee, the international community made a guarantee to the ukrainians. you give up your nuclear weapons, we will defend your

sovereignty an your borders to the bitter end except for the fact that we didn't, david ignatius. let's talk about unintended consequences. donald trump plays his hand and plays it in such a brute -- with such brute force and makes demands that the north koreans are never going to acquiesce to, and so he pushes them straight into the arms of the south koreans. and yet seeing the north and south koreans talking to each of course is better than watching the president of the united states and kim jong-un insult each other over twitter, isn't it? >> it clearly is. trump's little rocket man rhetoric, fire and fury rhetoric was part of an effort to signal to the north koreans and also to the chinese that he was serious about being willing to take the risk. so you can argue that had a

positive effect in signaling everything the u.s. is serious this time. i think richard put his finger on the issue to watch most carefully. it's my understanding from talking to state department and officials that the position of the united states is, in fact, that we're prepared to enter talks whose ultimate goal is denuclearization knowing that initially the north koreans will not put anything on the table on that, but so long as those talks are described by us and by others as being about getting the nuclear weapons out, we'll say okay. let's go forward. let's have a first conversation. it's interesting to note that the south korean president has said in each of his very son sill yaatory statements, yes, i'll go to a summit with kim jong-un, he continued to say this must be about the long-term denuclearization of the korean pe nans la. he's trying to keep faith with the u.s. i have a friend who is one of the leading korea watchers used

to work as an analyst for our intelligence agencies who sent me a little e-mail subject line was beep beep. his point was that in this amazing north/south korea story, kim jong-un has been the road runner. every time you know where he is, he takes off. beep beep. we are the coyote, we clumsily drop bombs that land in the wrong places. the person who has done this with exquisite timing sending his attractive sister to smile at the winter olympics has been little rocket man, kim jong-un. this is a much more subtle skillful player than we would have thought. >> well, we've been calling the north koreans crazy, tyrannical beasts and suggesting that they've been out of their mind for decades now and they have been using us time and time and time again to develop their

nuclear programs, make demands, apparently give small concessions, but in the end always end up getting the best of us. i would guess that our allies across europe see the developments of this past weekend far more positively than they see donald trump's tweets insulting the leader of north korea. >> yeah. couple of things that have been picked up off of. obviously the invitation for the south korean president to go and visit north korea, that's been getting attention in europe over the course of this weekend, but also you know, some criticism of vice president mike pence. i think it's erroneous to suggest that anybody is supporting kim jong-un's sister. that's kind of insulting to say people are being duped by this woman coming across. everybody knows what the north korean regime is like. everybody knows the family she belongs to. and everybody respects she has responsibility for what they're doing up there in terms of human

rights abuses. but when the vice president doesn't stand for the joint korean team walking in to the olympic stadium, is that seen as heavy handedness on the part of the united states? the only question is does it advance america's nshl interests? are they playing into the north korean play book which is driving a wedge between south korea and the united states. south korea being an incredibly valuable ally at this time. if you disrespect our south korean athletes walking into the stadium, that can be seen as being heavy handed and not particularly helpful to america's cause at this moment. >> especially when i think most americans as well as most people across the world concerned about this nuclear showdown that we've been fearing that would be coming for quite some time. see the north and south korean teams marching together as a positive development, a positive development if you don't want nuclear tensions to ratchet up.

so, yeah, it was a clumsy moment. if we had actually people working in the state department, i'm sure they could have given mike pence more effective instructions, but then again mike pence went to the wrong dinner over the weekend. he was late. and then had to excuse himself because again we don't have an ambassador to south korea and we don't have the proper people in the state department to help vice presidents and presidents as they move through foreign countries, making sure that they don't embarrass themselves. coming up, president trump is expected to release his infrastructure plan today. how exciting. we're finally going to get an infrastructure plan. but the skeptics of that plan include president trump. here is another big problem, he has this grand infrastructure plan and we've been hearing about this for some time. he's going to do big, wonderful, glorious infrastructure plan.

only problem is there's no money in it. no money attached to that grand plan. we'll be talking to heidi with that. she's here with her new reporting. "morning joe" will be right now back. ♪ at bp, everyone on an offshore rig depends on one another. that's why entire teams train together in simulators, to know exactly what to do before they have to do it. because safety is never being satisfied. and always working to be better. we've been preparing for this day. over the years, paul and i have met regularly with our ameriprise advisor. we plan for everything from retirement to college savings. giving us the ability to add on for an important member of our family. welcome home mom.

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as you know, we inherited quite a budget crunch from president trump. how bad is it, secretary? >> we're broke. >> the country is broke? how can that be? >> well, remember when the last administration decided to invest in our nation's children? big mistake. >> when washington's fiscal responsibility starts to resemble springfield's, a balanced budget has been the fiscal holy grail for republicans for years. in the trump era, that's no longer close to being a priority and they basically admit it. we'll take a closer look at the trump's spending spree straight ahead on "morning joe."

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every federal dollar should be leveraged by partnering with state and local governments and where appropriate tapping into private sector permanently fix the infrastructure deficit. >> all right, that's president trump previewing his ideas on infrastructure during the state of the union. now the white house is preparing to unveil his framework and, heidi, you've been looking into that and i'm just curious, how is the plan going over in washington when he basically says "i have this great big gigantic infrastructure plan that ice going to be beautiful, beautiful, believe me, beautiful, i'm just not going to pay for it." >> and that is the problem. beginning at the very basic level of $200 billion, where is it going to come from? a lot of the analysts i talked to, joe, were baffle bid the timing of this being unveiled on

the same day the president is expected to put his budget out. what we know based on the 2018 budget is that it cut transportation programs and that when this comes out we're unclear whether this will represent a net increase in funding. that included cuts to funds like the highway trust fund so at a basic level, where is the money going to come from. beyond that, i have to tell you, joe, it has a lot of critics. even if you were able to get that $200 billion, if you talk to the american society of civil engineers, for instance, that will get us nowhere near the kind of money we need for the big capital investments to bring us up to par with countries in europe, with japan for example in terms of building the transformative projects like high speed rail like the gateway project in new york to accommodate for population growth. for instance, the states are skeptical as well. how are they going to come up with this money. it's putting burden on to the states for projects that

historically have been mostly funded by the federal government. fact here, the interstate highway system when we built that back in the late 1950s, that was up to 80% and 90% funded by the federal governm t government. so the funding won't materialize out of nowhere. the president himself is pretty skeptical of it, republicans are in no mood to put extra money into a big program like this. >> and they're not going because, steve rattner, they basically understand they're out of money. they come up with a plan to keep the federal government open that blows a whole hole in the federal deficit. they pass a tax cut that blows up to a two trillion hole in the federal deficit. the national debt which may be

spooking wall street right now now they come up with a ten year -- they come up with a budget plan where they finally stop pretending that they even care about balancing budgets. because they've given up on that ghost, they're not going to balance the budget in five years. they say they're not going to balance the budget in ten years. they're never going to balance the budget and this budget plan says as much. take us through the numbers. >> you're absolutely right, joe. so when you look at the numbers for what's happening -- and by the way, trump's official budgets like the one today exist in some parallel universe that is never going to happen and bear no relation to reality. but if you look at the reality, they inherited a budget deficit of $600 billion and then they've layered on top of that tax cuts and spending increases that in 2019 are going to take this budget back over a trillion dollars to $1.15 trillion. first time it's been over a trillion dollars since the obama financial crisis efforts to

restore the economy and then it goes straight up from there. if you assume the tax cuts are extended, spending increases are expended, all of which are the right assumptions, by the time we get to 2027, instead of the balance budget that trump predicted a year ago, you have a $2.1 trillion deficit. >> let me stop you steve rattner. just to put this into perspective, republicans were attacking bill clinton for having a $300 billion deficit. you're telling me that donald trump and the republican part i y's budget and all the policies they put in place will lead us to an annual two trillion deficit? >> a $2 trillion deficit and $35 trillion of total debt when you go out ten years as you can see on this next chart. this is the critical american

your of the health of our debt levels relative to our economy. it would have gotten to 91% if trump had done nothing. when you layer in the tax cuts and the spending increases, it goes to 99. when you assume all those are extended for the full life of them which is the way washington works, it's always extended, you get to 109% and by the way at the end of world war ii when we were rebuilding the u.s., rebuilding university, it got to 103% very briefly, came right back down again. this would be by far the highest debt-t debt-to-gdp ratio we've ever seen and as you know the bond markets in particular in the last week or so, i don't think anybody expected congress would behave so irresponsibly, the bond markets have backed up and you can see what's happened to the ten year treasury rate which is sitting down around 2.35% for a long time, moving around calmly and took off and is now at 2.85% and as we sit here in this morning at 2.9%.

this will -- could eventually undo the stock market because the stock market relates very heavily to -- reacts very badly to higher interest rates. >> right and at some point, richard haass, china and other kouc countries that buy our debt will stop buying it at low interest rates. they'll say "there's too much of a risk here, you're projecting two trillion dollar deficits in one year" which is more debt than this country built up over its first 200 years. at some point they'll say you have to raise your interest rates if we're going to be buying american dollars. you're talked about this in your books and speeches. talk about how this undermines america's national security in the coming years. >> it's one thing to have to raise interest rates to cool an overheated economy but now we'll have to raise interest rates in order to attract the financing we want. this is -- it will slow american

economic growth so it will be a vicious cycle that we're setting ourselves in. it will always squeeze out investment. you were just talking about infrastructure. that's a perfect example. by the time we get done paying the interest on our higher rates and higher amounts of debt, we're not going to have the resources to invest in our future. we're going to eat our own seed corn. and think about what that will mean for our security, for our competitiveness. we are on a trajectory that is contradictory to long-term american national security. >> we are. you look at how we've been spending our money and the fact that donald trump and congress and i'll say barack obama and others had all the money to spend on all the things they spent money on. $2 billion a month in afghanistan for years and years and the fact we finally get to infrastructure spending after these huge tax cuts and we don't have money to rebuild america?

that's pathetic. richard haass, thank you so much. it's great to have you. heidi thank you as well. coming up, scandal at the white house. and that scandal continues to overshadow the business of running america with the chief of staff who was brought in to calm down the west wing now finding himself at the center of the storm and how long he'll last. that's nobody's best but for what i'm hearing not very long. we'll talk about it all next on "morning joe." but there's one... that blows them all out of the water. hydro boost water gel from neutrogena®. with hyaluronic acid it goes beneath the surface to plump skin cells from within and lock in hydration leaving skin so supple, it actually bounces back. the results will blow you away! hydro boost and our gentle exfoliating cleanser from neutrogena® on the only bed that adjusts on both sides

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kayak compares hundreds of travel and airline sites so you can be confident you're getting the right flight at the best price. cheers! kayak. search one and done. >> basic question here, does the national security adviser right now enjoy the full confidence of president trump? >> yes, general flynn does enjoy the full confidence of the president and this is a big week for general flynn. i spoke with the president last night about this very issue and he wanted me to re-emphasize to everyone, including this morning, that he has full confidence in his current chief of staff, general john kelly. >> wow.

okay. well last year kellyanne conway publicly backed michael flynn and said that the president had full confidence in the general. he was, of course, gone just a few hours later. will the same be happening to john kelly? welcome back to "morning joe," it's monday, february 12. still with us we have political writer for the "new york time k nick confessore, steve rattner, katty kay, columnist and editor for the "washington post" david ignatius and joining the conference, "new york times" reporter jeremy peters and white house correspondent for pbs news hour yamiche alcindor. david ignatius, i want to go to you for one second. you get back from a trip to the middle east. tell us your take aways. >> joe, i traveled last week for

four days in syria with u.s. special operations forces, this is the third trip that i've made in the last two years, i feel lucky to be able to say this. and what i saw was in the eastern part of syria where the u.s. has been fighting isis our soft forces partnered with the syrian kurdish militia have absolutely devastated this adversary. i spent a day in raqqah to see the level of destruction there as the u.s. and its partners had to root out house by house street by street this determined adversary, it was something i'll never forget. i saw on the front lines of what remains against isis in eastern syria where baghdadi himself was supposed to be hiding out that this fight is continuing. what was worrying me is what a it too battle space this has become. and what bad faith the russians seem to be exercising as the

dominant military force in the west of syria. i talk ted to syrian kurdish commanders who who described an assault last night in the east by forces that seem to have russian backing and they seem to describe talking by phone with the russian liaison officer said no, no, no, we're not attacking and then the attack came, they got pounded by u.s. forces, over 100 dead and the russian liaison officer called and said "can we have a truce so we can pick up our dead and wounded?" according to this syrian commander. it's bad faith? ing that bothers people. and then we saw in the west the incident -- the iranians sending a drone many, many miles across what was supposed to be a zone of deescalation that had been carefully worked out between russia, israel, jordan, the u.s. in southwestern syria, that

drone flew for miles and then crossed the israeli border and the israelis regarded that as an absolute breach of trust, pounlded syrian bases and iranian bases inside syria to reinforce their basic red line of deterrence so my take away, joe, is u.s. force there is have done an extraordinarily good job but we're reaching the end of military power and this is the time when we need heavyweight diplomacy. i'm glad that h.r. mcmaster, our national security adviser, is in the region, that secretary of state rex tillerson is going to the region. this is the time they need to begin to broker the deal that is going to finally, i hope, begin the process of deescalation in syria. that's what's needed. that's what you see on the ground. >> david, we want to hear much more in the coming hour about that but kat katty, let's go to

what's happening inside the west wing and how many people are telling me over the week end and we've heard other reports of this as well that john kelly may not be around much longer. >> yeah, it's been another wild week end in the white house and let's start with the news of reports of friction inside the white house surrounding chief of staff john kelly's actions related to the resignation of white house staff secretary rob porter over those allegations of domestic abuse. on tuesday night, kelly said he "is proud to serve alongside" porter. on wednesday afternoon, the white house said porter had kelly's full confidence and trust. on wednesday night kelly claimed in a statement, though, to be shocked by the new allegations and then on friday afternoon kelly told reporters that he had previously known little about the claims against porter and that as soon as he did they acted swiftly. >> reporter: there's been a lot of reporting about the timeline and when you found out about things. can you verify that?

>> tuesday night. >> reporter: you found out tuesday night? >> that the accusations were true, 40 minutes later was gone. >> reporter: was that just the picture you found out? >> i didn't even know about that. >> reporter: but you had some indication -- >> no. >> reporter: last year about the nature -- >> in november i got an update about some of the investigations and the update was that there was some things that needed to be looked into. literally that was it. tuesday night i found out and that's what i've been saying. >> reporter: you made the decision 40 minutes after you found out. did you tell him tuesday night? >> yes. actually, he made the decision 40 minutes after. >> kelly reportedly told a similar story to west wing staffers on friday morning. the "new york times" reported "two people familiar with the comments said most of the staff appeared incredulous. one person said several people in the room knew that the timeline kelly had present ed ws false and axios reports that porter is telling associates that some seen jurnior white ho

officials strongly encouraged him to stay and fight and claims he never misrepresented anything to kelly which budget director mick mulvaney claimed yesterday. >> rob porter came to the president and the united states and the chief of staff and said "i'm being accused of these things, they are not true." for the president and the chief of staff to give that person the benefit of the doubt is probably a normal and human reaction. as soon as rob porter was proven he was not telling us the truth when the photos came out on wednesday he was gone almost immediately. >> on friday, abc and the "new york times" reported kelly said he was willing to step down. kelly responded to nbc news that he didn't offer to resume. meanwhile, president trump's apparent defense of these two high-level aides, both of whom resigned over these allegations, president trump had sympathetic words to rob porter who as we said resigned after the publication of photographs that show one of the women with a black eye.

>> reporter: do you have a comment on mr. porter? >> well, we wish him well, he worked very hard. i found out about it recently and i was surprised by it. but we certainly wish him well. it's a -- obviously a tough time for him. he did a very good job when he was in the white house and we hope he has a wonderful career and hopefully he will have a great career ahead of him. but it was very sad when we heard about it and certainly he's also very sad. now he also, as you probably know, he says he's innocent and i think you have to remember that. he said very strongly yesterday that he's innocent. so you'll have to talk to him about that but we absolutely wish him well. he did a very good job while he was at the white house. >> late on friday, white house speech writer david sorensen also resigned after a story his

ex-wife told the fbi during a background check that he had been violent and emotionally abusi abusive. on saturday morning the president tweeted "people's lives are being shattered and destroyed by a mere allegation, some are true and some are false, some are old and some are new, there is no recovery for someone falsely accused, life and career are gone, is there no such thing any longer as due process?" joe, i admit, i'm still confused about what john kelly knew when. i may be dim and it's monday morning and i'm tired but i still can't figure out what he knew and when he knew it. but what does seem clear to me is that the president decided to side with the men in this case and not with these two women. >> as you and everybody else knows, i'm just a dumb country lawyer and maybe i can't add all of this up but i think the fbi told him about this a very long time ago and told the white

house about this a very long time ago and jeremy peters, while katty was replaying donald trump's statement about a man who has been accused of abusing two of his ex-wives, i counted in a very short, maybe 20 second clip, ten positive things that he said about the suspected abuser. he worked very hard. we wish him well. tough time for him. he did a good job. we wish him a great career. this is very sad. he is very sad. he is innocent. repeated that again, he is innocent we absolutely wish him well. 20, 30 seconds said all of those things, jeremy peters and yet

not once did he h mentimention women who said and who we have some evidence of that he was abused by this man that donald trump has such positive feelings about. never mentioned the women once. >> it's not his nature to, joe. this is what we've seen time and time from the president, whether it's defending bill o'reilly, defending roy moore, the president, his reflex is to see in these men. and for somebody who has a persecution complex, who sees victimization everywhere he looks, people out to get him, this is what we've come to expect from this president. the president wasn't aware of the allegations against rob porter, and that really raises questions about just what type of information is getting to this president. if they were keeping this from him, what else might they be

keeping from him. rob porter's job is critical to the information flow in the white house. the reason john kelly found him so indispensable and the reason john kelly defended him time and time again up until he was forced, basically, to fire him is that rob porter kept information from getting to the president. when people would slip the president articles from conspiracy theory type web sites like info wars or got news and -- these articles that would rile up the president, it was rob porter's job to keep those away from him and he did by all accounts a pretty effective job. so the fact he's no longer there raises questions and if john kelly is no longer there, what's going to happen? how quickly does this disintegrate. >> i'm skeptical this was kept from the president.

like we said about the campaign, it was a mom-and-pop operation without the mom there that everybody told donald trump everything. i suspect if the fbi had warned that this guy had been accused of abusing his two ex-wives, that's something donald trump would have known about. the impact of this and we talked about it last hour, it's going to be big most likely in the elections coming up this fall and in a lot of the special elections, maybe even the one in western pennsylvania because president trump's approval rating among women and college educated women keep falling. in a recent "washington post" and abc news poll, donald trump's approval rating was 29% with women compared to his 35% approval rating back in april of 2017. among white women with college degrees, trump's approval rating plummeted 13% from 40% to 27% in

that same time span. who are those women? those are the women that we were talking about in mountain brook, alabama, that have voted for republicans their entire life, that could not bring themselves to vote for republicans there or in northern virginia. trump's approval rating is 12 points higher than it among women. the largest gap between men and women when compared to his predecessors. yamiche, look at the stories we all heard when you talk about northern virginia and the governor's race and i thought that ed gillespie might pull that race out and then bestarted hearing reports early afternoon that women were standing in long lines in the rain and weren't moving. they were there to send a message to donald trump. you look at the wisconsin statehouse races, some of the pennsylvania local races, republicans keep going down at

every level and women are driving it. how much more does the news of the weekend make women even more intensely determined to defeat donald trump next fall at the polls? >> this weekend is going to be more galvanizing to women around this country when looking at the men he's surrounding himself with and saying these are not the people that will be running our country. it was almost poetic that you had donald trump's inauguration and this women's march that was a foreshadowing of what women were thinking and how they were coming together. since the women's march, you've seen this organizing of women across this country. we have a record number of women running for congress, running for local offices. you have stories about transgender women talking about traffic in their local communities who are saying look, i want to talk to you about basic stuff, the basic ways that this country can be worked on and this idea that there -- there's also this idea as jeremy said that the reflex of this

president is to see himself in accused men but i'll go one step further and say this is a president who couldn'ts to stand accused by multiple women of being sexually inappropriate, of having sexual inappropriate behavior toward women, being abusive toward women and he continues to operate in the white house so his own background is not allowing him to talk about the me too movement or women because donald trump can't stand up on a podium and say "men who abuse women should no longer have power, men who are accused of mistreating women should be gone from our society" because he himself would have to resign so in his -- so he can't defend the women bauds he has so maecause women accusing him of something so he has to double down and go to the men who have been loyal to him and say i'm going to stick with rob porter and john kelly and all the people around him who are supposed to be adults in the room are quickly losing credibility. i talked to hope hicks who is rob porter's girl friend and she

could not defend herself when i was asking questions about what was your role in crafting a statement for john kelly? what was your role in defending rob porter? she wouldn't answer and there are a lot of staffers that i talked to who are saying off the record that they are appalled that john kelly defended rob porter. they thought he was going to be a better chief of staff than this. and now you're facing this uprising within the ranks of the white house staff. >> you talk about an uprising, we started to hear that ivanka trump wanted john kelly gone in part because he's cut down access for her and everyone else. but the story i heard was that john kelly has bad relationships with everybody inside the white house because it's his job to keep access to the president of

the united states limited. and at the same time he has a president who desperately wants him gone. he's just fed up with john kelly telling him no so this appears to be a man who is an island unto himself inside the west wing and most people predict he can't last much longer and there may be more stories like the porter story coming out. how does he survive? >> joe, it's important to keep in mind as you read these stories and these ticktocks in the days ahead about john kelly, his job was to keep people out. he was the man who cut off or tried to limit access from the president's family, from jared and ivanka, from the assorted menagerie of people the president has collected over his career who he consulting time and again over the phone. all of those people were shut out by john kelly. this is their chance for revenge. i suspect they are taking it. and they want to see him gone in part to restore their own access to the president and their own

power in the west wing. the problem is if the president doesn't have his back, if the president has grown tired of him or has last faith in him it's bye-bye. and we hear this phrase "full confidence" and i have to tell you i laugh when i saw that. it's the kiss of death in this administration when you hear "full confidence" you have to pack your bags and run for the exit. >> yeah, and david ignatius, nick's so right. there's so many people in the west wing that have been resentful of john kelly for blocking access to the president of the united states and now this is their chance for payback, leaking left and right, saying the guy has to go. i guess the bigger question is if he stays on, what sort of dysfunction do we have inside the white house? i mean we all remember -- you remember and stories of the nixon white house in '73 and '74

how dysfunctional things were inside the nixon white house then. it sounds like things are equally dysfunctional in the trump white house in 2018. >> joe, i think first nick has got the title for the noir thriller about the crazy white house that's going to be called "full confidence." [ laughter ] it's going to be eerie. so i think this white house veers in and out of dysfunctionality. the knives were out to such an extraordinary extent during the priebus and bannon period, they were removed. there seemed to be some calm, the establishment of order then the knives come out again and they're certainly out now. one question i have that is one that you often raised yourself, joe. what's the breaking point for republicans? are they going to go over the edge of the cliff again on this

question of rob porter and the larger question of domestic abuse the way that they have in sporting this nunes attempt to trash the fbi and special counsel robert mueller, the way republicans have abandoned any shred of traditional principle on budget matters and embracing a budget that as steve rattner says is going to completely bust the deficits. will republicans stick with them battled white house, stick with trump yet again or do they begin to draw lines for their own self-protection? those numbers showing the gender gap, if you're a republican running for reelection, you look at those and you think, wow, i've got to do something here or i may be in trouble, just as donald trump surely has to ask himself. but that's where i'm going to look for changes in where people are positioning themselves as they look at the fallout from this. >> you look at, again, as you

know steve rattner, these midterm elections are driven not just -- people always love to look at the generic ballot test. it's the intensity. it's the intensity of people that are coming out. ed gillespie didn't lose virginia because republicans were repulsed by his confederacy ads. he lost virginia because more democrats were repulsed and the turnout was so strong. in this case, you have women who are going to be so much more deeply offended, and more and more are going to fall away from voting for republican for the first time in your life but what about black americans? what about hispanic americans? what about educated white americans insulted that donald trump is making one racist comment after another? that he's retweeting neo-nazi videos out of england? these are all of these things

that will whip up not just the democratic base but independents and some republicans to stand in line for as long as it takes to send donald trump a message. it seems to me that if you're a republican in a district, you have to start separating yourself from this man personally if not his policies. >> yeah. that's absolutely right. and look, these polls which are obviously not good for trump in terms of his standing among women and some of these other groups don't necessarily capture the full intensity of how people feel about this. when we were down in alabama, as you remember, the black turnout in that special election was extraordina extraordinary. it was higher than what barack obama got and the same thing i see happening within the party as i talk to people among the activists, many of the women but not all the women, that everything that trump is doing is laraising the level of intensity and determination to win this next election and back for one second to what david said. i think you are seeing republicans even now beginning

in a way to try to distance themselves from this harassment side of the trump white house. you saw pence even say over in korea that he thought it could have been handled better. you saw senator kennedy yesterday on one of the sunday shows take issue at the way it was handled so i think for self-preservation the republicans on this issue are going to have to try to walk back from donald trump as much as they can. >> it seems to me that if somebody has the least bit of political talent they can go to a pro-trump district they represent and start to separate this toxic personality from some of the policies that they and their voters in their district support but nobody is doing it now. you can do two things at one time but nobody -- there aren't that many republicans willing to

do it than you're right, senator kennedy, ben sasse, lindsey graham once in a while and a few others. anyway, everybody stay with us, we have more on this developing story ahead on whether john kelly survives or whether he's booted out. we're going to go live to the white house where the man in charge of the white house is -- and in charge of actually calming the waters at the white house, of course, we're talking about general john kelly is now at the center of the storm. plus, the man who john kelly replaced in the white house, reince priebus, is speaking out. why he's saying the president's tweeting is a good thing. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. does your moisturizing routine have an mvp? mine does. aveeno® skin relief. with oat oil and natural shea butter, it softens very dry skin and lasts for 24 hours. aveeno®. it's a game changer.

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paul ryan -- >> don't tweet this, do tweet that, don't this, don't that, and others chimed in, even the first lady and the family. but you know in the end of the

day he goes through the whole campaign, he's listening to people like me saying don't tweet this, don't tweet that, and he tweeted it and he won. >> and he won. >> and so i'm at a place now on the whole tweeting issue that i think more or less people like me were wrong and people like him were right. >> and he won. former white house chief of staff reince priebus speaking with msnbc's hugh hewitt over the weekend. let's go to the white house where president trump is scheduled to unveil his massive infrastructure plan this morning. but, like other policy rollouts before it, this one is being overshadowed by another controversy that's gripping this administration. nbc news national correspondent peter alexander joins us flow the white house. okay, so peter, on this monday morning, do we have a clear sense of where john kelly stands in this administration? >> it's a good question. we'll be talking about this for a second week, this saga, six days in, at least as much about the chief of staff john kelly as

it is about rob porter, even this many days later the white house and kelly haven't gotten their stories straight. the white house dispatching several senior white house officials to defend kelly, insisting the president has the full confidence in the four-star marine general mick mulvaney, one of the names the president has mused about replacing the president with calling this much ado about nothing. kellyanne conway saying the president has fall confidence in kelly. she said that roughly a year ago today and then michael flynn was fired a matter of hours later. it's kelly's credibility and leadership that are under scrutiny right now. i'm struck by the fact that the white house is relaunching this infrastructure week. today a infrastructure day. the president will be bringing state and local leaders here to talk about this $1.5 trillion infrastructure plan. you'll remember it was last june that they had infrastructure week and at that time the president basically overshadowed the whole effort by tweeting, the feud, slamming london's

mayor about a terrorist attack. also slamming his own justice department about a watered-down second travel ban. that was one of the reasons john kelly was brought into the white house to instill discipline and here many months later as they try to revisit this infrastructure idea, i'm struck by the fact that it's john kelly himself that's in many ways overshadow their ability to focus on infrastructure. even though infrastructure was surely a non-starter for republicans as well. >> you bring up a great point about infrastructure week and how the president stepped on his headlines. what a remarkable example of this when he went to ohio last week to talk about tax cuts and you always do that knowing that you'll get all the local papers and the moats important swing state to have huge headlines about tax cuts but as you know,

the president instead accused the democrats of treason and so all the screaming headlines weren't about the tax cuts they were about treason and the president accuses the democrats of treason. it seems he steps on his positive headlines everyday. >> if they were disciplined as past administrations would have a chief of staff in there to try to enforce that discipline and create that structure he would be zeroed in, laser focused on tax cuts right now talking about companies that are giving bonuses focusing on that. but in effect what he's done, not just ripping on the democrats as being treasonous as he did last week but taking a swipe at the me too movement. you've been talking about this, joe but i was anchoring msnbc at the time when the president made those comments where he was sympathizing with the men here not with the victims, with the wicket here. in fact giving a public letter of recommendation to report

porter from the oval office. it was a striking scene, you played jennifer willoughby saying the president was calling her a liar. over the weekend we witnessed reporting, axios coming out saying several people who spoke privately to the women saying privately he believes the women and thinks porter is sick. why can't he say that publicly. why not come out in front of americans and say something about domestic violence and say this is a serious issue, set aside rob porter's circumstances which we could have handled better this is a serious issue and we as an administration are going to look out for women nationwide. he can't, obviously, because of so many allegations against him himself. >> you're right. peter alexander, never a boring day for you at the white house. >> no doubt. >> thanks so much. greatly appreciate you being with us. >> thanks, joe. >> the president, again, the president steps on his positive headlines time and time again

and he also doesn't really have a political operation inside the white house. anybody that can guide him forward. after this porter story broke, there were several meetings in the white house where they were trying furiously to get it off the front page and they sat around and said, okay, what should we do to try to get people's attention to move the headlines forward and they decided that they would launch infrastructure week this week. and then you had the president tweeting the next day. and, of course, blue that up and kept this story going. coming up next, we'll speak to a top democratic lawmaker and ask him what should be the fate of john kelly when we return. your brain changes as you get older. but prevagen helps your brain with an ingredient

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let's bring in the chairman of the democratic caucus. congressman joe crowley of new york. always great talking to you. >> thanks, joe, same to you. >> a lot of quick questions then i'll turn it over to everybody else. first of all, what do you think about the president's infrastructure proposal where he says here is the big infrastructure plan but the federal government won't fund any of it. it will be able to fund local

and state governments. >> what we've been hearing about is a $200 billion investment in infrastructure. that comes out to joe $20 billion a year. that sounds like a lot of money but in reality we know we're bleeding in terms of infrastructure, we're not investing enough in that and what democrats are proposing is a trillion dollar investment by the federal government and what the president's relying upon is the nature of the state and local governments that somehow they'll take up the slack and make an 80% investment to go with a 20% investment by the federal government. doesn't work that way. it's the opposite way it works. >> let's talk about john kelly. should john kelly leave the white house? >> i had the great experience of being with general kelly in iraq a decade ago. i saw him in action, i was so impressed by him. but i'm not so sure those skills transfer to white house chief of

staff, quite frankly. what the men and women in the military see and what we see now is woefully lacking. having said that, i think he's brought a modicum of calm to the white house. it's relative in terms of what we consider calm and i think the president will hold on to him as long as he can. >> do you think that's a good idea? >> i don't think so. i think what's happened in the porter debacle shows not only the insensitivity but the deafness to what's happening throughout our company when it comes to the me too movement and women primarily. to ignore the fact that these individuals -- a woman with a black eye over the weekend constantly and yet to have that dismissed by the president and john kelly is disturbing i think to americans. >> congressman, katty kay here in washington. you've been traveling around the country talking to democrats, trying to help them raise money. to what extent are you hearing

this sense of concern amongst female voters about what's happening in the white house and the president's attitude towards women. is it real? >> the presidents holds on to 35% of supporters out there and continues to dish red meat to them in terms of that support. so i think what it comes down to is that most americans are disgusted by this and they'll have an opportunity to express that in the 2018 elections and beyond but right now i think the president is just trying to shift the discussion to now to infrastructure. we'll see if he's successful in not stepping on his own plan as joe mentioned earlier. >> the president is going to

take up various immigration proposals, supposedly the house will. but i wonder what your sense is of how eager both sides, democrats and republicans, are to get a deal. it seems the status quo may not be a horrible thing politically for democrats, especially, because they don't want to cut a deal with the president for fear of not resisting enough. can we get something done to protect the dreamers? >> i think we have to. it's a moral imperative to address the issue of not only these 700,000 souls in limbo right now, the president continues to take additional hostage hostages. he's expanded it to another million people who are too lazy, as john kelly said, to get off their butts to register for daca. he's expanded it to the tps, temporary protective status. el salvadorians who have been

here for 20 years, who have homes and grandchildren, the president is saying send them back. i'm not convinced paul ryan will let anything on the floor that doesn't have the president's support and what that means we don't know and mcconnell has been abstract about this in terms of he'll let something come out of the senate. we think it will be more conservative than anything we'd like to support. >> congressman, could you talk about how important you think the release of the rebuttal to the nunes memo is is it problematic that the nunes has been out for so long that it will be a month or more before the democratic memo is released? >> it's not about the democratic memo. it's the willful trying to get rod rosenstein dismissed and take control over the mueller

information. that's what the release of the republican memo is about from the get go, purely a political document that does not have the good will or intention of the american people i think the history won't look back kindly on what devin nunes did here in terms of release of this memo. >> all right, congressman joe crowley as always, great talking to you. thanks for coming. >> thanks, joe. coming up next, when talking about the need for stricter immigration laws, the president likes to talk about gang violence. but when his policies put in practice, it's innocent fathers and beloved college professors who are the ones who are getting hauled off in cuffs. the "new york times" nicholas christof joins us now with his powerful new op ed in the story you won't believe and will probably -- i mean, i really think it this leave you asking the question is this really happening in america. that's ahead of "morning joe."

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david ignatius, it wasn't too many years ago, 2014 or 2015, that isis was talking about their was talking about thousand year caliphate and, my, what a different a few years have made. and you went over and embedded yourself with soldiers pushing back on isis. tell us what you learned over there. >> joe, the first thing is that is that caliphate, that dream of a islamic state, is pulverized. it's crushed under rubble. i spent a day in irraqqa, whichs their capital. i'm not sure there's been delike that since world war ii, with block by block, mile after mile, every structure flattened. once a determined adversary like isis gets into an urban area,

you have to claw them out. it's painful to watch. i have to say, joe, the thing that keeps me going back tow to see this conflict is a chance to be with our special operations forces. these are the -- some of the finest soldiers in the world now. they operate, you know, in rough conditions, in kind of often primitive forward basis, that they don't look like the soldiers you see on parade. they have thick beards. they're tanner than the syrians around them. but they have managed over these three years to accomplish something extraordinary. we need to focus a little bit more on isis was rampaging back in 2014. it was spreading everywhere. it's basically destroyed because of a determined application of u.s. military power. you know how many americans have died in syria in this conflict over these three plus years? two. the fighting has been done by our partners. the kurdish-led syrian democratic forces. and we figured out a way, it was very light footprint, to partner

with them and take down the caliphate. the people who did the dieing on the ground were these syrian kurdish forces. one reason that our troops are so loyal to them. but i think at the end of this process, having driven them out, it really is now time for our diplomates, for our intelligence officers, to figure what's the way out for the united states so we're not there forever. and i hope people are really focused on that now. the military did its job. now it's time for the diplomates. >> so tell us, when did this start? i know in late 2015, 2016, we started hearing, i think, belatedly, membership, barack obama understanding what was going on and how keeping his hands clean of this conflict was causing more problems in that region. when did president obama realize that he needed to step forward and start moving in this direction? >> joe, the strategy that we embraced in syria evolved almost

by accident during the battle of kubani in had late 2014. kubani was being destroyed. there were these syria/kurdish fighters on the ground who had guts, who the the determination to stand and fight. and our special forces actually in iraq began hearing about the bravery of these people. and what i have watched is that month by month, over these years, a real brotherhood of battle and sisterhood because some of these fighters are women. where the american special forces developed such admiration for these forces, they got the job done. they moved south from kubani, they began taking strong holds where the fighters were clustered, as thick as can be, and they pushed through these places, suffered enormous casualties, supported every step of the way, came down finally to raqqah, the capital, and took it down. and it was, in a sense, a new

kind of warfare where the u.s. role on the ground was limited to advising. and then these overwhelming assets we have in the air, drones, targeted laser guided missions, that's what i saw. what i saw is how that process worked and i just hope we don't let it slip away. >> and catty kay, in my opinion, at least, that's why i think it would be so disgraceful for the united states to abandon the kurds now as there have been some suggestions over the past six months that we might do that. if turkey applied enough pressure. we should not do that. they have been our best allies for some time mow in that region. >> yeah. but here is the question. does the president want to carry on funding them? he's just tweeted this. this will be a big week for infrastructure. after so stupidly spending $7 trillion in the middle east, it is now time to start investing in our country. steve, of course, that's what many people who voted for donald trump wanted him to do. get out of conflicts in the middle east and start rebuilding

infrastructure in the united states. >> yeah. well, one of the ironies here, of course, is that the president's budget included another $150 million a year for two years for a number of the military. so the military is obviously spending money outside of the u.s. to have an effective fighting force, which i personally support, but it obviously confarther difficults that particular tweet. and what happened was with the spending that was just voted, it is, i think, made it somewhere between impossible and nearly impossible to get any more money out of the congress for domestic purposes, including infrastructure. so the president says one thing in a tweet and then does something else in terms of his actual physical priorities. >> the if you actually look at that tweet and match that up to the huge increases in defense spending, the trillion plus in tax cuts to some of the most wealthy americans, that tweet is so disconnected from reality that, well, i guess i should say

i'm not surprised that the president tweeted it. about 10 or 11 times in 30 seconds, rob porter, of course, his former aide who was accused of domestic violence, once again, siding with the long list of accused men over their female accusers. plus, the kellyanne conway curse, she says john kelly has the president's full confidence. but if past is prologue, that's kind of like michael giving fredo a kiss on the cheek. not good news. "morning joe" will be right back. have you smelled this

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you know, it's made me think, i'm closer to my retirement days than i am my college days. hm. i'm thinking... will i have enough? should i change something? well, you're asking the right questions. i just want to know, am i gonna be okay? i know people who specialize in "am i going to be okay." i like that. you may need glasses though. yeah. schedule a complimentary goal planning session today with td ameritrade. bp is taking safety to new heights. using drones and robots offshore so engineers can stop potential problems before they start. because safety is never being satisfied and always working to be better. what can a president [ do in thirty seconds? he can fire an fbi director who won't pledge his loyalty. he can order the deportation of a million immigrant children. he can threaten an unstable dictator armed with nuclear weapons. he can go into a rage

and enter the nuclear launch codes. how bad does it have to get before congress does something? she sent vast amounts of classified information, including information classified as top secret, top secret, okay? and this is where they said that she was extremely careless and, frankly, i say grossly incompetent. she will be such a lousy president, folks. so sad. okay. the lives of the american people were put at risk by hillary clinton -- >> so for someone whose campaign was built on attacking opponents' handling of classified information, there seems to be something of a disconnect over at the white house. for the last year, donald trump

received classified documents from a staffer who -- get this -- from a staffer who was not authorized to see them, to have any access to them. the president personally disclosed highly classified information to top russian diplomates. and he encouraged house republicans to release a memo about the most secretive of fisa courts. and the president's son-in-law, well, he handles classified documents on a daily basis, despite the fact, like so many people around him, he doesn't even have a security clearance yet. wow. imagine if hillary clinton ran her house, white house that way. i mean, we would be hearing about it, well, nonstop from republicans who are actually going back three or four years still attacking hillary clinton because they don't want to look at what's happening right in front of them. welcome to "morning joe." it is monday morning, february

12th. with us, we have political writer for the "new york times," nick confisori. we have former treasure official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve ratner. we have president of the counselor on foreign relations and author of the best selling book "a world in disa array" coming to a food channel near you richard hass. we have washington anchor for bbc world news caddie kay, davis ignatius and nbc news national political reporter heidi prisbella. mika will be back with us tomorrow. but let's talk about john kelly and we'll start with reports of the friction inside the white house and surround the chief of staff, john kelly, and his actions as they related to the resignation of white house staff secretary rob porter. of course, over those allegations of domestic abuse. tuesday night, kelly said he, quote, is proud to serve

alongside porter. on wednesday afternoon, the white house said porter had kelly's, quote, full confidence and trust. on wednesday night, kelly claimed in a statement to be, quote, shocked by the new allegations. interesting word, "new." then on friday afternoon, kelly told reporters that he actually had previously known little about the claims against porter. and that as soon as he did, they acted swiftly. >> there's been a lot of reporting about the timeline and when you found out about things. can you verify that? >> tuesday night. >> you found out tuesday night? >> that the action ewe sayings were true. 40 minutes later, he was gone. >> is that just the picture you found out about or -- >> the entirety of the allegation. >> but you had some indication, right, sir? >> no. >> last year about -- >> in november, i got an update on some of the investigations and the update was that there was some things that -- that needed to be looked into.

literally, that was it. and on tuesday night, i found out and that's when -- >> so you made this decision 40 minutes after you found out. did you tell him tuesday night? >> yes. actually, he made the decision 40 minutes after i found out. >> so kelly reportedly told a similar story to west wing staffers on friday morning. but the "new york times" reported, quote, two people familiar with the comments said that most of the staff appeared incredulous. one person said several people in the room knew that the timeline kelly had just presented was false. another way to put that, everybody in the room knew he was lying. and axios reported that porter is telling associates that some senior white house officials strongly encouraged him to stay and fight and claims that he never misrepresented anything to kelly, which budget director nick mulvaney claimed yesterday. >> rob porter came to the president of the united states and the chief of staff and said,

look, i'm being accused of these things. they are not true. for the president and the chief of staff to give that person the benefit of the doubt is probably a very normal and human reaction. as soon as rob porter was proven wrong, and it was proven that he was not telling the truth when the photos came out on wednesday, he was gone almost immediately. >> all right. now, on friday, absenc and the w york times" reported that kelly said he's willing to step down. a lot of back and forth going on here. it could be confusing, so we'll tell you what. what we usually do on "morning joe" when we're confused and we just want to know the facts, we just wish somebody at the white house would give us the facts, well, we go to kellyanne conway. yesterday the counselor to the president, kellyanne conway said john kelly has the president's full confidence, which actually sounds a lot like what kellyanne conway said about another aide.

>> i spoke with the president last fight about there very issue and he wanted me to reemphasize to everyone, including this morning, that he has full confidence in his current chief of staff, general john kelelly. >> basic question here, does the national security adviser right now enjoy the full confidence of president trump? >> yes, general flynn does enjoy the full confidence of the president and this is a big week for general flynn. >> and, in fact, it was a big week for general flynn. he was gone a few hours later. in fact, it's been a big year for general flynn since that morning. i think, if i'm not mistaken, kellyanne was responding to some things that were said on "morning joe" and rushed out and did what she does so often, said things that have no connection to the truth. now we're hearing that general kelly has the full confidence of president trump. if, in fact, that is the case, that is the exact opposite of everything i've heard from people inside the white house and also several people very

close to president trump that, in fact, he doesn't have the full confidence of president trump. president trump is finished with john kelly and that his staff members around john kelly can't wait for him to go. just reporting the facts. so, nick, one of the -- one of the more remarkable things over this past weekend and one of the things that people close to donald trump have been upset about and especially republicans on the hill that already seem like a minus 30 gender gap with women is the way that donald trump and the white house took a story of a staff member beating two of his wives and turned what would have been a one-day story, you're fired, get your stuff out of here that's repulsive, we'll have nothing to do with you, and they have managed to turn it into a six-day story. with donald trump actually going out basically saying, leave the

accused and he never mentioned anything about the women who had been beating. >> well, joe, if kelly is fired, it could be a six or seven or nine or ten-day story, as well. a story of the full confidence, that phrase has been a kiss of death in this white house. so we'll see how much longer he lasts and how long the confidence lasts. i will point out, you know, a lot of this i think goes back to the president. he has a pattern persistently and consistently of always believing the men in these situations. in fact, there's a great list in the times today, rob porter, roy moore, roger ales, in fact, the only the person who he hasn't believed is bill clinton in terms of denying allegations of sexual abuse or sexual assault. so the president's gut instinct is always to believe the men, steve wynn, and always say, well, he's denying it and, therefore, the denial is credible. in fact, in doing that, i think it limits the response of the white house. if the boss is saying, look,

let's dig in. i don't really believe this. let's stand by our guy. it's going to have this long-term effect. >> well, david, it's not the first time that this has been said. and it kind of reminds me of what mika always said during the presidential campaign, hillary clinton had a hard time attacking donald trump for treating women badly when she was in close proximity to a man who treated women badly for so long. and many people, including maureen dowd, suggested that she actually went along with that behavior. now donald trump finds himself in the position that the first time he says yes, i believe the women, then the ten, 11, 12, 15, 20 women that came forward with sexual harassment claims against him, well, suddenly the questions are, well, let's go through each one of these women, mr. president. do you believe them as well? >> anytime he opens the door to taking these allegations of abuse, sexual harassment

seriously, then we're in the space where his own conduct will be at issue. he probably knows that. due process, let's wait until the facts are in. what's astonishing to me, joe, about the rob porter story is the way it shows a breakdown in the most basic process of vetting people for the most sensitive jobs in our government. the basic information about his past, about the allegations of abuse began to be assembled a year ago. kelly himself says that by november, there were specific warnings. how did we get from november to now without an aggressive effort led by the white house to come to the bottom of this? these allegations are serious. the fbi does not assemble this material without the expectation

that there will be action on it. there's serious people who will make good judgments about who gets security clearances. on that one, they have to walk this back week by week and explain to us what happened. >> well, david, that may be actually what drags this story along even further now. the security clearance issue where it's not just porter who didn't have security clearance. of course now you look and find out that jared kushner, who is supposed to be running needle east peace and supposed to be doing so many other things for them hasn't been able to get a top security clearance. and then this weekend one started getting reports that maybe more than a dozen people, 15 people in the white house may not have their security clearances, either. people that are having access to classified informationing are passing them along. how dangerous is that? and could that be, david, a way that this story drags on for weeks, maybe months? >> well, there are a lot of people who were not in the

category of necessarily being abusers, but who have unresolved issues that are preventing finalzation of their security clearances. getting a security clearance, from everything we know, is -- it's a complicated process. it takes a lot of time. the fbi is overwhelmed. but a year plus in, these things should be resolved. and if they're not being resolved, it's because nobody is driving them at the top. john kelly was supposed to be the person come in and shape up this undisciplined fractious white house. and guess what? here we are with john kelly, it looks more like ever the knives are out in a way this weekend. i can't remember them maybe back to bannon and priebus. but it's extraordinary. and the issue is some of these people, the reason that they can't get clearances finalized may be specific pieces of information, as with porter, that could leave someone open to

being blackmailed. the fact that two ek wives wex- documenting these issues. >> still ahead, president trump acknowledges the tough time associated with domestic violence. however, his sympathies seem to lie with the man accused and not the woman with a black eye. we'll talk about that in a little bit. but first, here is bill carin w karins with a check on the forecast. >> after a soaker on the east coast, we have more warm weather and more rain this week. no signs of winter whatsoever for the eastern half of the country as we go throughout this week and next week, too. if you need a break in the great lakes. detroit and chicago, you got nailed by a lot of snow. the east coast, dreary conditions southeast. a lot of rain in southern portions of florida and georgia. a little bit of rain still looked over the mid-atlantic region. so we do have winter in some spots. we don't want to say it's over for everyone.

billings, 2. 13 in minneapolis and chicago. seaboard, raleigh, 65 degrees. boston 6 degrees above average. tomorrow, we give the ohio valley a break. tennessee valley, too. nashville, up to 61. st. louis at 46. birmingham at 66. and then we take this warmth, we bring it to the east coast. look what happened thursday, exceptionally warm. we may get 60s up to boston. you usually get one or two days like this, but this looks to be prolonged into the upcoming weekend. the only really winter weather that holds on tight is in the northern plains, but for you, you're kind of used to it. you have to wait march, maybe april if if you're lucky. looking at new york city, we haven't seen any sunshine in a while. we're hoping to get some this afternoon. should be nice throughout the middle of this week. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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we all want to know you know, the new, new thing. with xfinity's retail stores, you can now see the latest. want to test drive the latest devices? be our guest. want to save on mobile? just ask. want to demo the latest innovations and technology? do it here. come see how we're making things simple, easy, and awesome. plus come in today and ask about xfinity mobile, a new kind of network designed to save you money. visit your local xfinity store today. welcome back to "morning joe." you know, we've been talking about john kelly's handling of

the rob porter situation. and now let's talk about the president's comments on the issue. caddie, take us through that. >> yes. president trump spoke out in apparent defense of the two high level aides who resigned last week over allegations of domestic abuse. he had sympathetic words for rob porter who resigned after the publication of photographs showing one of his ex-wives with a black eye that she said he had given her. >> we wish him well. he worked very hard. i found out about it recently and i was surprised by it. but we certainly wish him well. it's a, obviously, tough time for him. he did a very good job when he was in the white house. and we hope he has a wonderful career. hopefully he will have a great career ahead of him. but it was very sad when we heard about it and certainly he's also very sad.

now, he also, as you probably know, he says he's innocent and i think you have to remember that. he said very strongly yesterday that he's innocent. so you'll have to talk to him about that. but we absolutely wish him well. did a very good job while he was at the time at the white house. >> so, caddie, i just -- two or three phrases just stand out. they really are shocking. this is a tough time for him, the president's words. it's a very sad time. very sad time for him. we wish him very well in the future. again, unbelievable. the president, in those comments, made the man accused of beating up two women the victim. >> yeah. he made a choice, the president right there, and he sided with rob porter.

and the other thing that you notice about that comment, those remarkses that the president gave in the oval, absolutely no mention of the women whatsoever, let alone a word of sympathy. late on friday, the white house speech writer david sorensen resigned ahead of a background check that his ex-wife said he had been abusive. on saturday morning, the president tweeted peoples lives are being shattered and destroyed by mere allegation. some are true and some are false. some are old and some are new. there is no recovery for someone falsely accused. life and career are gone. is there no such thing any longer as due process. in an e is ssay for "time" magging zeeb, jennie willoughby, one of rob porter's ex-wives is reacting to the president's comments. here is what she says in part. on friday, a friend and i

watched as the president of the united states sat in the oval office and praised the work of my ex-husband and wished him future success. i can't say i was surprised. but when donald trump tweeted twice that rob declared his innocence, i was floored. what was his intent in emphasizing that point? my friend turned to me and said the president of the united states just called you a liar. yes. and i guess, heidi, that's the point. time and again from this white house, it seems that the president sides with men in these situations, as nick was listening earlier from the "new york times," and not with the women who are accusing them. >> and nick read off a good tip sheet there at the beginning on all of the times that this has been the case, that the president's reflexive instinct is on to rally around these men, whether it be roger ales or bill o'reiley or roy moore and that is something that is now start to go create a pattern, i think also in the minds of voters. this is an interesting statistic

thats has just come out of the white house on a new poll showing that coming in, president trump had the support of 52% of white women. this is one of the areas where we're seeing some of the biggest declines since election day. his approval has dropped in this group by 10 points. and what is also interesting is that as a subset of that strong disapproval which measures intensity, is up about 12 points, up to 51%. so we cannot draw this back to any one instance, but certainly these women voted for president trump despite the existence of that access hollywood videotape. his past was known. but these incidents combined with his policy making agenda is having an effect on his standing with this important group of white women voters. >> and, nick, if you're looking at the political fallout of this story, heidi just really, i think, touched on the most

important part of the story when it comes to politics and what the long-term fallout may be. and that is that a gender gap that was already extraordinarily pronounced, a gender gap that helped democrats to a shocking result in the legislature and the legislative races there and also in the governor's races that helped doug jones get elected president of the united states -- let's not get ahead of ourselves -- that helped doug jones get elected senator of alabama, you know, in alabama, any position is more powerful than president of the united states, of course. but you look at what's happened in the past and you -- then you look specifically at college educated white women and see the massive -- those most likely to vote in the midterms and you see the -- not only the massive gender gap, but also the

intensity, which is what determines who wins midterm elections. and republicans on capitol hill have every reason to be fretting this morning over the fact that donald trump has taken a horrible situation fors those in swing districtes and just made it that much worse. >> well, look, joe, he couldn't be out there talking about the tax cut, the trump bonuses with, so to speak. instead he's talking about the issues in which he's most ill equipped to talk about which is women and sexual abuse. and he has a whole falinx of republicans who are out there not talking about the economy and job growth. it's not just the polls, joe, it's the intensity. it's that women are coming out to run for office to give campaign contributions to democrats. they're angry. and for some reason, the equation that didn't work against hillary clinton with the two of them head to head where people were making a choice for

him smed of these allegations is somehow coming undone and women are fired up, as you can see from the polls. they are ready to come out and vote and they are very angry at what they sees as a culture in trump's white house, in the administration, and around the country. coming up on "morning joe," vice president mike pence says the u.s. is still willing to sit down with north korea. we're going to go through that and the regime's attempts at a charm offensive to whitewash their abysmal record on human rights. "morning joe" coming right back. ♪ we the people... are defined by the things we share. and the ones we love. who never stop wondering what we'll do or where we'll go next. we the people who are better together than we are alone... are unstoppable. welcome to the entirely new expedition.

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welcome back. vice president mike pence is back in the united states after his trip to the olympic games in south korea. and, caddie, some major developments on the international stage. tell us about it. >> yeah, joe. vice president mike pence says the united states is now ready to sit down with the north koreans. pence made those remarks to washington post on his way home from the winter olympics in south korea. the white house official has confirmed the accuracy of the report to nbc news. however, stressing that this does not mean the u.s. is changing its stance that north

korea must denuclearize. instead, pence tells "the washington post" this new position is, quote, maximum pressure and engagement at the same time. joe, how do they square this? because the issue has always been, we'll sit down and talk with you if you denuclea denucl. and north korea hazard said, we're not going to denuclearize. that's giving up our biggest advantage. >> maybe the united states is realizing that is a nonstarter, they've played hard ball as longs as they can and now it's time to negotiate. let me ask you your response. other than certain members of the national media trading the north koreans arriving in south korea much like the press and screening teenage girls treated the beatles landing at jfk 53 years ago -- it was bizarre --

but other than that bizarre positive reaction to the north koreans, what was your take on what happens this past weekends between the north and the south? reason for hope? >> that's the most interesting story. the invitation by the north koreans to the president of south korea to -- for a summit. and it's both the reason for hope, but also concern. it's no accident that north koreans are focussing on this access of diplomacy, a north-south dialogue and the fact that north korea's priorities and ours are not the united states. the united states doesn't want to look like it's 00% opposed to negotiations. we should be talking to the north. we should be advancing our priorities. if we're serious -- and this is a prerequisite -- and forget about it. it's a nonstarter. if, however, we wanted to -- >> richard, can we talk about that for a second? you and i both know, if you're a

tyrant and you're running north korea and the united states is demanding that you give up your wmds, the united states is demanding you give up your nuclear program, all you have to do is look at what happened to gadhafi in libya where gadhafi did what we asked him to do, gave up his wmds, i remember you and me saying it in realtime. you kill a man that does what you tell him to do, give up his wmd program which he was keeping to protect himself, all you're doing is telling every other tyrant never give them up. why would kim jong un give up nuclear weapons when the united states track record is the second he does, they'll find a reason to go in and kill him? >> the answer is he won't. look at crimea, as soon as they gave up their nuclear weapons, they looked at iraq. we could finesse this if we wanted to, joe. we could have a position where we could say the long-term goal must be to denuclearize north

korea, and have negotiations over time about what would be traded to get there. but in the short run, we have to live with it and the question then is do we freeze production, do we freeze testing and so forth. what i'm hoping is that the administration gets smoked out on this issue. but they had better watch this space, the north-south conversation going back to what you said. yes, there's reasons for hope. but we have to be very careful that the dynamic doesn't get established where our interests are essentially put to the side. coming up "morning joe," the "new york times" nick krzysztof joins us and ruth marcus from "the washington post." "morning joe" back in a moment.

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so a new report says that you don't have to go halfway around the world to see democracy in danger. a new report says for the second straight year, america's system of government is considered a

flawed democracy. this is thanks in large part to, quote, a serious decline in public trust in u.s. institutions. according to the authors, donald trump's presidency has only further polarized america. with us now, nick chrkrzysztof, victoria defrancesco so tto, an an attorney for "the washington post" during watergate, joseph califano. he's out with the new book "our damaged democracy we the people must act." nick, let's start with you and your latest column. you tell the story of a chemistry professor arrested last week in front of his family. and i'm looking for -- here we

go. i tweeted out part of your column yesterday and the response to your column has been incredible. this is the quote. agents handcuffed a beloved chemistry professor as he was leaving home to drive his daughter to school. they warned his crying wife and children, ages 7 to 14, that they would be arrested if they tried to hug him good-bye. and the response to that, nick, from conservatives, independents, and liberals alike, all the same. this is not the america that we grew up in. >> that's right, joe. there is this disjunction between how the immigration crackdown has been sold, which is as a way to control these murderers, rapists, and what is often unfolding at the grassroots. there are, indeed, some pretty tough people who are being seized and deported. but many of them are people like

professor jamaal, the person i wrote about, a guy would has been in the u.s. for 30 years, who with is a distinguished chemistry professor, a trol volunteer at the local schools. he even ran for the local schoolboard. this is about the least dangerous man in america. and if you look at, you know, who is a danger from this crackdown, it's his three american citizen children. and what will happen to them if he is deported? they will be devastated. and that is so often what is happening around the country. that in this rush to arrest and deport people, with even those who have no history of any kind of criminal action, then it's these american citizen children whose lives are destroyed by this process. >> so this kansas professor is leaving home to drive his daughter to school.

the i.c.e. agents swoop in, they arrest him. why in the world -- and this is what so many people don't understand. they don't understand the arrest. but why do these agents, who are american citizens themselves, why do we have people in our government telling children, 7-year-old children that they will be arrested if they try to hug their father good buy? >> boy, i wish i could understand that. and, you know, the family is struggling to understand why the arrest happened at all. professor jamaal had a temporary work permit. he was reporting regularly to i.c.e. he had reported to i.c.e. most recently earlier in january. and, you know, he wasn't in hiding. there was no reason together through this. but all of a sudden, i.c.e. changed its exercise of discretion and instead of allowing him to stay because he was pure received as an asset to the community, they swoop down.

he was in the car in the drive driving his tower. they tapped on the window, asked if he was syed jamaal, asked him to step out and handcuffed him in front of his crying family. >> so victoria, this weekend i saw a study by pugh that showed illegal immigration to the united states has flat lined since barack obama became president in 2009. in fact, in many years, it has decreased. add on top of that the fact that mexican illegal immigration to the united states has dropped and that non-mexican immigration to the united states, illegal immigration has actually increased. it makes everything that donald trump said in the campaign about the border with mexico, about the wall with mexico, to be just as preposterous as we all said

it was during the campaign. and, yesterday, he continues to do it and we see him now dragging beloved chemistry professors with work permits to jail in a way that you would expect to happen in turkey or russia. >> right. so what donald trump, has done, he has villainized the immigration. he has taken all empathy away from why immigrants come to the united states. immigration at its core is about economics. it's about demand and it's about supply. and the united states, up until the great recession, there is a much greater demand for labor. that's why we saw some high rates of immigration, from mexico, especially. once the recession hit, there wasn't that demand and mexican immigrants said, why am i going to go to the united states and be unemployed? i might as well stay in mexico

and be unemployed. >> what donald trump and the republican party would not like you to know is the fact that barack obama was pretty tough on illegal immigration and even on legal immigration. he was capitally scolded by immigration groups as being too tough on illegal immigration and immigration in general. >> well, joe, i mean, i clearly remember the moniker of deporter in chief. and there was a lot of anger at barack obama among the latino community because of that. what we saw was a dampening of immigration both because the demand was going down and barack obama in an attempt to try to get a comprehensive immigration reform said, look, i'm going to show that i'm tough on immigration, but then the republicans never came through in providing that comprehensive immigration reporm. >> nick. >> joe, it seems there are at least two men work in the white house until recently who were more of a danger to americans

than the man who was handcuffed in front of his kids. there are reasons why a government has come to a.stand still. tell us, you know, the three branches of government. we have the president, the congress and the courts. how is each one being brought to a stand still? >> thank you. what's happened is the presidency has become the most powerful of all these organizations, overwhelming the others. the president is now the chief legislator. for every law congress passes, the president produces about 20 or more regulations. the president has sent pets for 50 years have send 100,000 people to their death in a war, americans and wounded and others without any declaration of war. probably people under 40 in this country don't even know that congress has the exclusive right to declare war. and the president is -- the

staff is monumental. it's hundreds and hundreds of people. he's running a state run media. white house.gov, youtube around the clock. this is a massive operation with runs of people running it. congress, on its sooird side is crippled. for the last 20 years, with the rare exception, having passed appropriations bills. they've just passed continuing resolution easies. congress also has become a pay to play ogz. there is a whole table in the back of the book of what each democrat was required to contribute in 2013. it's the same one for the republicans. we couldn't get it leaked out. but we're talking about if you want to be chair of a key committee -- you have to raise money. >> yeah.

or 700,000 or 800,000 if you're a run, as joe well knows. and the courts have been politicized. it starts with the supreme court. from the moment of the nomination, donald trump -- and all his predecessors for the last 20 years or 30 years now, i want a guy that is going to vote just the way i want him to vote. and in the last ten years, and 50 occasions, the court is split along party lines, 4-4 with kennedy being the guy that is a battle. and even the federal -- the local federal courts on the im of immigration, just think about this, if you want to block donald trump's immigration plan, with you go to san francisco to a federal district judge. big oreck, makes you want an

injunction. if you want to block obama's immigration plan, you go to east texas. >> is so let me ask you this question. how do you compare the state of our democracy under richard nixon in '73 and 74 with the state of our democracy, our constitutional remember in 2017, 2018? >> well, i think richard nixon made a run at -- totally against the institution. as we both know. and the i was with "the washington post" and the democratic party in those days. what i'm worried about now is these are systemic problems that president after president -- you know, ronald reagan was the first president to say i'm not going to follow in this provision. i'm not going to enforce this provision. every single president has done that. with respect to provisions of the laws they don't agree with

and don't like. we have a very serious problem here that goes to the whole way our system works and the partisanship. i mean, with all due respect, schiff and talk to each other. they write a memo to the fbi that the president has to clear. now they're going to build a wall between their staff. we have fundamental systemic problems that threaten our democracy. >> right. >> and we've got to get people -- we've got to get better people. people don't want to run. it's a savage climate out there. there's so damn much fake news as you well know and have often reported. >> right. >> so it's very important that our people in my judgment, they've got to get in at the beginning of the primaries. one example, hillary clinton got the republican nomination with 8% of the registered democrats. donald trump got the republican

nomination with 7% of the registered republicans. we faced an egomaniac and a woman who wasn't really offering much. >> all right. thank you so much. the new book, our damaged democracy, we the people must act. joseph, thank you so much. >> and vote in primaries, joe, vote in my pressures. get there on the ground. as you well know. better than anyone here. >> exactly. vote in my pressures, you're exactly right. thank you so much. greatly appreciate. nick christoph. so where are we right now in 2018? where are we? when you look at certain polls and the overwhelming majority of americans want daca recipients to be able to become legalized citizens of this country. and yet you see what the president of the united states is doing on that issue and so many others. >> well, i mean, i think that

the polls certainly are a factor that's going to make some kind of humane policy on daca and dreamers more likely but, you know, getting to joe calafono's point, the challenge isn't just leaders who overreach, the problem is we do have this grassroots divide in this country. partly based on how we in the news media operate and the fact that everybody is tending to tune to new sources that confirm their own biases and prejudices and -- regarding the other side as not just wrong but often a threat to the system, and i think that makes it a lot harder to reach any kind of productive agreement on issues like daca or anything else. >> yes, no doubt, all right. thank you so much. we're obviously going to be reading your powerful column in "the new york times."

greatly appreciate you writing it and being here. victoria, stay with us, if you will. coming up next on "morning joe," the president tweeted this morning it's going to be a big week for infrastructure. last time we tried infrastructure week, it was overshadowed by the russia investigation and the president's own destructive tweets. this time, the efforts being done to try to overshadow domestic abuse scandal and a potential white house cover-up. will the administration ever stop fighting and will it stop getting in its way of its own headlines? keep it right here on "morning joe." you named it brad. you loved brad. and then you totaled him. you two had been through everything together. two boyfriends, three jobs... you're like nothing can replace brad. then liberty mutual calls... and you break into your happy dance. if you sign up for better car replacement™, we'll pay for a car that's a model year newer with 15,000 fewer miles than your old one.

liberty stands with you™. liberty mutual insurance. with us now, columnist and deputy editorial page editor at the "washington post," ruth marcus is here. also chief of "usa today" and author of the new book "that's what she said," what men need to know and women need to tell them about working together, joannely theman.

ruth, let's first of all talk about how people close to the president of the united states that are working with him now, have worked with him in the past, are shocked. shocked, even knowing donald trump the way they do, that he managed to take what should have been a one-day story and turn it into a six-day story with his tweeting and his insistence on defending a man who's been accused of spousal abuse by two ex-wi ex-wives. it continues. >> i don't actually see why that's shocking, joe, it's entirely of a piece with the way donald trump has responded to pretty much every allegation of sexual abuse, sexual harassment, domestic violence, against everybody, every man, that he's associated with. except for the ones that happen to be democratic donors like harvey weinstein, in that case, he doesn't worry about due process at all.

and the initial instinct is just to say well, nothing's proven. ray moore is another great example of that. of course he did that. i wasn't surprised at all. >> joanne, in your book here, you talk about how part of the problem with sexual harassment and gender inequality is, that men tend to underestimate the severity of the problem. i wonder if you can tell us a little bit more about what you dug up there and why exactly it is that tends to happen. >> actually, when you look at men in general, they do not perceive sexual harassment in the way that women do. there was a study done with couples where they asked the man and the woman, they said to the man, has your partner ever been sexually harassed and the majority of the men said no and the majority of the women said yes. so there's this lack of perception. the other issue i think is important to understand is there is a much larger impact that goes beyond in any organization

that tolerates abuse and sexual harassment at the top. also is an organization that you can be pretty sure marriage analyzes women throughout the rest of the organization, underpays, undervalues. and if you look at the current administration, for example, the gender wage gap in the trump administration is 37%, which is foot only larger than the national average, it's triple what it was under the obama administration. this reflects every action that this organization takes, so you even look at what the trump administration has done with the obama rule that was -- he had reinstated an equal pay rule, which the trump administration has rolled back, so there's major implications here. >> if you imagine the white house as a workplace and the tone being set by the boss at the top. he's been credibly accused by

many women of sexual abuse or misconduct. how does that ripple down to rest of the staff in terms of it being a workplace and the tone being set from the top and what's permitted and not permitted in that workplace? >> i mean, in general, it's a hostile work environment for women. what that means on an individual level, as a woman, you feel constant anxiety. you're always looking over your shoulder. you're playing defense against what is going to come next. but, you know, within all of this i do think that there is a silver lining in that i think we're going to see a year of the woman 2.0 because of what has happened in the trump administration and because of all rhetoric that women are angry, they're frustrated, they're running in record numbers and my hope is we turn out in record numbers as well. >> so ruth, we've obviously had a white house in chaos since january the 20th of last year. now we have a chief of staff who's brought -- who was supposed to bring order to that chaos, now mired in his own

chaotic scandal. what's next for john kelly? >> that is really probably up to donald trump who as much as he said it a lot on tv doesn't really like to say you're fired directly to his staff and there's not a ton of obvious candidates to take general kelly's place. the real irony is if this domestic abuse rob porter scandal ends up with departure of john kelly is that it would be ousted for sort of the weirdest of reasons. i wrote over the weekend about john kelly as a kind of mini me of donald trump, the second worst person in the white house really. because as much as he was supposed to bring them all order, he's just really mirrored and exemplified some of donald trump's own worst instaincts an this last episode is just an example of that. we'll see what happens to him. i think one thing we know is it's going to be a white house

in chaos whether he's there or not. >> no doubt about that. and of course we're going to see what happens this week. it's supposed to be infrastructure week at the trump white house. i suspect it's going to be a week instead where we see john kelly thrown under the bus. that does it for us this morning. we're going to be live from washington, d.c. tomorrow morning. but stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. stephanie. >> thanks so much, joe. good morning, everyone. i'm stephanie ruhle with a lot to cover today starting withstand by your man and the backlash escalating after president trump speaks about two of his former aides accused of domestic abuse. the president also standing with chief of staff john kelly for his handling of these abuse allegations. >> he has full confidence in his current chief of staff and he's not actively searching for replacements. >> an infrastructure plan, well, anticipation of one. the president set to unveil his long awaited plan to help