explosive idea. he hasn't followed through on it and we don't know that he would but he likes the idea that can might happen because that could influence witnesses just on the idea. other presidents -- wouldn't contemplate because they knew it is politically damaging and this president doesn't care as much as about the conventional cases. >> we are out of time. my thanks to peter baker, bash wau mcquaid and kimberly and i'm nicolle wallace and now we have "mtp daily." >> in 2002 had karen hicks and karl rove both been gone, just after the first year of the bush white house, how would you have felt? >> the turn over with karen hughes, we had the opposite problem. >> everybody stayed too long. >> right. things weren't -- in all critics defense, things were not always

going well so the critique was why don't you get rid of these lumps and i'll put myself in a lump category. >> but there was a time people stuck around. it is amazing the change around that man. >> amazing. >> thank you. if it is wednesday, little lies, big problems. ♪ ♪ good evening. i'm chuck todd here in washington and welcome to "mtp daily." and we begin with an absolute deluge of breaking news. on the gun debate, russia, white house chaos and the increasing isolation of donald trump in the presidency. his communications director hope hicks is resigning. this is the day after she reportedly told congressional investigators that she's lied for president trump. though she claimed they were just white lies. his attorney general jeff sessions is firing back at him after being insulted by the

president who suggested sessions isn't give him enough cover on the investigation. his son-in-law jared kushner has just lost his access to highly sensitive intelligence. and white house advisers privately sounded the alarm over his foreign contacts. and the campaign chief paul manafort was hit with more criminal charges. rick gates has just flipped in special counsel robert mueller's probe. we'll have more breaking news on his investigation coming up. the president's staff secretary just quit following allegations that he committed spousal abuse and mother member oma rosa just recently to be on "big brother" and all of that is just in the past few weeks. most of it in the past few days. and don't forget, his bodyguard with him forever and director of security keith schiller also has left him. that was a move that john kelly made early in his tenure and the chief strategist steve bannon left a few weeks prior to that

and then dina powell left. you get the drift. we get lost in the craziness of the white house moment to moment it is hard to see the forest through the tries but lo-- tree look at the casualty list of advisers and think about it in the span of about a 90-day period. some have been with him from the beginning. others more recently joined the team but add them up and you might wonder if it is a case of abandoned ship involving the president's inner circle. to our chief white house correspondent hallie jackson. this big news ---in the briefing room. i have to say, hope hicks leaving the president -- if there were people that i might nominate at turning the lights off on the last day that donald trump was in office, she would have been in my final five. what happened? >> reporter: partly, chuck, because she was there turning the lights on before donald trump announced he would think about running for president way back in the day. she's been by his side from the very beginning. here in the briefing room because you've been running back

and forth doing reporting and i want to share new information that we've learned. we know that hope hicks is leaving the white house. we know from white house officials that is going to happen sometime in the next few weeks. one of the questions had been what triggered this? was it for example the story that had broken about her telling the intelligence committee that she told white lies as part of her job. was it the rob porter scandal and the fallout from that? after it came to light that the staff secretary had been facing the now former staff secretary was facing allegations of abuse. somebody with whom hope hicks had been reportedly linked to roar -- romantically. and multiple white house officials say she has been considering leaves for month. she had come to a point where she spent several years with the president and wanted to have the conversation about finding something else and moving on to the next thing in her life. as far as what she is doing next, i'm told that is still under consideration for her. she's going to go and spend time with her family. again, the russia investigation, white house officials have been

emphatic, at least so far that had nothing to do with her departure. obviously acknowledging, chuck, the timing here. this is one day after she appeared in front of the house intelligence committee, the last of the committees with which she was to speak. she's spoken with robert mueller. she's already spoken with the senate members investigating russia but again the white house said she's been thinking about this. we know that the president has come out on the record now and talked about what an ally she has been and how much she meant to her. and hicks wishes the president the best in his continuing leadership moving forward. but there is pushback from the white house. already we've gotten a slap of the hand saying don't you dare try to tie this to russia, you media people, because this is not about russia, this is about hicks wanting to move on. no talking about a replacement and nothing from hope hicks. go ahead. >> no. they are the ones with the credibility problem. i'll be honest, i feel like everything coming out of the white house because of what we learned, that she occasionally tells lies, white lies, it means

every statement from a white house source has to be caveated with occasionally some things were untrue. how do we know this is true. >> reporter: all we can do is present on the record statements with sarah sanders who was on the record who was up there in upper press which you know well. andm facizi andm -- emphasizing this. and she put her credibility behind it and take that as you will. and gary cohn is telling nbc on the record this did not have anything to do with the russia investigation and hope had been considering this for a while. so people are putting their names behind this. again you make the point that when there has been an admission in front of congressional investigators reportedly that you have told white lies, i think your point stands. but i do think that there is -- there has been -- from a strategic standpoint, the white house knew the questions were coming and pushing back on it almost instantly. which is not something we see

them do. sometimes things languish for hours or days. that is not the case here. >> they created the own credibility crisis and they have to clean this up. hallie jackson at the white house for us. you're doing best you can and we appreciate. tonight's panel, analyst michael steele and correspondent heidi press bola and howard fineman. howard, i'll start with they don't want us to think hope was fired for this and maybe she wasn't. or maybe she showed weakness and the president got mad, you never admit that you ever lie. we don't know. but i can tell you for me as a reporter i cannot stand behind anything the white house says for a while without having to tell meme that caveat. >> you are exactly right. this is not the white house staffer, this is the communications director. let's not forget that. so i think it couldn't stand. and i think as the day wore on just taking a strong look at

what she was admitting here and it was -- "the new york times" reported first and cnn confirmed it and everybody else confirmed it and you jumped on it right away, how can you be the communications director and say something like that. now i know hope hicks, i worked with her during the campaign she's a lovely person and i think she never thought they was in over her head. but i think she was. and i think probably people around her, her family and others who love her, legal advisers said get out. before you get caught up in inadvert en inadvertently in the machinery and conflicts between what you told robert mueller and the committees. >> heidi, i think on one hand to defend hope hicks here, she didn't -- she chose not to lie under oath. that is an important thing. she could have he's -- easily lied but she has seen former campaign staffers have to plead

guilty for doing that. so she didn't do that. so the question is -- that isn't enough to get your credibility back. >> no. and i think both things -- let's split the baby. maybe both things could be true. >> accumulated package. >> it could be true that after the disastrous statement yesterday that was then reported in new york times that she did get some type of legal advice, now is the time to bail and it could be true there was a longer term exit plan for her. i will note that within recent weeks the white house has brought in mercedes shlap who is a long time republican operative, very experienced and she's been conducting all long term communications so both could be true. but the very interesting questioning going forward is what lies has hope hicks already told. we know -- let's go back to no contacts. when dimitri peskov, the kremlin spokesperson said after the campaign that putin's officials had been in touch with trump's people, she said nothing there.

there is no truth to it. so we're going back many lies that have been exposed. >> michael steele, the donald trump. >> help hicks gone, cory lewandowski, and think san nunberg was there and then rice priebus gone, steve bannon gone. >> paul manafort. >> what is interesting to me is there is nobody that -- there isn't a comfort person for trump now in his white house. that is a problem for john kelly. i don't know if he's aware of this yet. >> i agree with that and i think -- the last little cushion if you will between donald trump and the rest of the world was hope hicks. and you think about going back to that list, of all of those people she was the one who he relied on the most, confided in

the most and had the most respect for. and so i think for him -- and i don't know -- i think the president may have been forced to do this given the accumulation of events. certainly her public statement about the white lies did not help. but i don't see donald trump wanting to jettison her just like that as he would others who would jump out on a story line like that. i think there was just an accumulation of pressure because of point you are making. and what does he do now and who is in that space. even his own kids are now circulating in a different orbit. >> and that is to me -- like how does this -- john kelly has now done what people have been trying to get people to do around trump for years. >> exactly. >> which is get rid of all of his trump tower people. okay. howard, he did it. are they sure they'll like that president trump? >> well there are two people left for comfort. one in particular, and that is ivanka trump. >> how left is she? >> i don't know. i don't know. because in a way, functionally, when he was in business and i covered him some in business,

ivanka was the only one who had an office on the 26th floor. the sons were down a floor and that was highly symbolic and ivanka was somebody he felt he understood fully, could -- communicate and give him unquestioning love and support. his daughter. ivanka is busy and her husband have their own legal issues here. whether he intended to or not, robert mueller is putting tremendous psychological and familial pressure on donald trump. and donald trump is a pretty tough guy. but the visceral hatred that trump himself has for robert mueller -- and i know that he does. obviously. and he's taken it out on sessions. >> on sessions. i was going to say. sessions is the robert mueller punching bag. >> is there any doubt when he's mad about mueller and some -- >> the extraordinary statement

that his own attorney general having to come out today and defend himself and the job that he does and says i'm not going to let the statements that cross a boundary here in terms of executive independence from the -- the department of justice really cross that boundary. >> and here is a frightening thought but i think it is correct, i think if sessions were to go, the president would fire mueller in a second. or figure out a way to get somebody down the line of chain of command to do it. those people still around him would say, you've got to be nuts. that is the one thing you cannot do. >> i think it is already too late. >> well i think -- >> i think the indictments against -- i think the indictments -- >> that was mueller doing -- protecting himself. >> and russian oligarch -- >> i'm telling what you think. i know some of the people who talked to trump when he's at his craziest okay and i know the president -- if he could get away with it, he thinks he could do it. >> i don't disagree. michael last word.

>> to your point about kelly, i think the chief of staff right now while looking at a cleaner slate around him, looking behind him and he hears growling and that is the president of the united states. >> he has to find somebody to mind him. >> he has to find somebody to mind him and it is not individuals in the communications shop or anyplace else. it is someone who will have access to that west wing in a way that gives the president the comfort he needs. >> guys, we've been saying this for a year. >> i know. >> but his presidential minder was hope. she was the whisperer. >> and it doesn't like lie melania wants to play the role. >> no. >> guys, stick around. trust his eyes are wide open. a lot more breaking news including the first indication of mueller's investigation and how he's targeting president trump in his russia probe. that is coming up in a minute.

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more state seats flipped from red to blue last night. and both of these came in the northeast. it was in new hampshire, democrats won a seat by eight points and donald trump had carried by ten in 2016. and 18 point swing in the democrat favor and in connecticut democrats won a seat that had been held by republicans for more than 40 years. folks there is no way around it. this is a trend and in the month of february alone democrats have flipped five seats from red to blue and since the 2016 election, democrats have flipped 39 seats in the same time frame republicans have flipped just four seats from blue to red. this is starting to spook some republicans. after a -- a red to blue flip in january special election, wisconsin governor scott walker tweeted, it had to be, quote, a wake-up call for republicans there wisconsin. there are now two open seats in wisconsin and walker woke up. he's decided not to schedule any more special elections. a democratic group filed a lawsuit to get an election date and they may win the lawsuit but it is one way of waking up to

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as we said, a lot of development and breaking news today, all over the political world. including a scoop of our own. our first real indication that special counsel robert mueller is targeting the president personally. and he's investigating whether mr. trump personally was involved in russia's interference campaign. not staff, but this is him individually. multiple people familiar with the probe telling nbc news that mueller's team is asking witnesses if trump had advanced knowledge about e-mails stolen from the dnc and the clinton campaign. trump the individual not the campaign. mueller's team is asking if he was involved in the strategic release of the e-mails and they're asking if trump personally knew that clinton's campaign chief john podesta was targeted. they're asking why trump took policy positions favorable to russia and why he spoke so positively about putin.

they're also asking if he met puteain in 2013 when he went to moscow and about his business interested in russia, about his relationship with roger stone who bragged about having a back channel to wikileaks and why trump said this during the campaign. >> we call on putin to stay out of this election. >> i'm not telling putin what to do. russia, if you are listening, i hope you are able to find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. i think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. >> and they're also asking if trump was advised to say that someone from outside of his campaign to be involved. that is some of what they want to know. joining me katy tur and now host of msnbc and here in this seat on most mondays. katy, let me start with

reporting -- this is what we know mueller is asking, not knowing what we know mueller knows. >> so this is reporting by me and carol lee also of nbc news. and what -- what is significant about it, chuck, is that this shows that the mueller team isn't just investigating obstruction, what happened after donald trump took office, what happened after he fired james comey, why he did that. they are still focused on the original question which is was donald trump involved in any sort of coordination between russia and his campaign at the time of his campaign. and they are focusing on that totally bizarre press conference that is one of the focuses, because that line, russia, are you listening if you are listening, seemed to come out of nowhere. during this time the dnc had been hacked, the e-mails were just starting to flood out. but donald trump took it a step further. he said i want to find hillary clinton's e-mails and now

investigators are asking some witnesses if he potentially knew that john podesta was ultimately hacked before the rest of us knew, before the public knew, ultimately the e-mails came out in october and they are looking to find out is there anybody that could be a back channel and roger stone is he potentially that back channel. because we know stone was tweeting about podestas a time in the barrel on august 21st, about a month before these e-mails started to come out from podesta and if so, was he also kind of a back channel for the trump campaign. he had been fired a year before but was he still working with them. >> does your sources suggest that mueller is asking because he doesn't know the answer, or he's asking because he already knows the answer and he wants to see how the witness handles it. >> this is the thousand dollar question. when you are talking to people interviewed by robert mueller, they describe a very intense

interview. they describe investigators who know exactly what they're asking and why they're asking. and oftentimes the witness will feel like they've already known -- they already know the answer before the witness answered it. one witness when they left their interview, they left and told me they believe very strongly that robert mueller has something on donald trump, something on this coordination collusion angle. something on donald trump's business interesting with his political interest and influencing his political interest. they don't know what it is but they feel like he has something on that angle. another witness i spoke with told me that these are not cops that are trying to piece together a crime scene to figure out what was going on. they already know. they can tell you what room you were in, who were you sitting next to in that room and word for word what you said in that room. they are now just trying to fill

in the small gaps. so we'll see if this line of questioning leads to nig anywhere concrete. but this is a really big deal because, chuck,s as you know, donald trump has said this has nothing to do with him. this is obstruction, the investigation is about obstruction because they couldn't find coordination, well this is showing you and showing everybody -- >> this is right. >> that coordination is still a very big topic with robert mueller's investigators. >> he's just not done yet. i got to ask you about this fact, katy. everybody you interacted with in the trump campaign from 15 at first day to the inauguration, they're gone. other than jared and ivanka. >> and steven miller. >> fair enough. and what do you make of that and are you wondering what i'm wobd e -- wondering which is donald trump feeling isolated. >> i imagine he is. i talked to somebody before i

came on the air who was a former trump white house person and they feel like donald trump -- those that are little to donald trump are being pushed out because -- they can't figure out why. they can't figure out why donald trump is allowing john kelly to push out all of those closest to him. not to mention steven miller and there is also kellyanne conway who is still there. and there is a concern about -- with a source that kellyanne conway could be the next to go. but you're right. hope hicks was big for donald trump. is big for donald trump. she was with him from the very beginning. she survived scandal after scandal a -- and cory lewandowski and he left and she stayed. >> roger stone, and everybody. i'm failing to think of all of the names now. >> keith schiller, hope hicks, david bossie. the list is getting long.

>> it is -- it is significant. and i got to say, i am just so surprised as you are that hope hicks would leave. if anybody would turn out the lights, because she was so loyal and never said anything bad about him. and always defending him no matter what and trying to keep a low profile. >> and i think that may be what happened. her profile got too high. -- kate y tur. and i'm joining by paul fishman, he prosecuted thein fa-- the infamous scandal. and welcome to the show. >> thanks for having me. >> when mueller is questioning various witnesses about specifics on -- on what trump may have known about different

mail thefts, hacks, things like that. how often did you go into an interview with a witness not knowing what their answer would be, versus having an interview with a witness knowing what -- the truthful answer should be but just seeing where they could go. >> sometimes it is both. sometimes when you start an investigation in particular, and when you are talking to people for the first time and early on, you may not have all a lot of information. but this investigation has been going on for some time. we know they've interviewed a lot of witnesses and from indictments they've returned and from other things they have access to a lost e-mails and to people's probably their chats and we know if they've gotten lots of documents from sources and once you gather that information, you have a pretty big window into what people were saying and thinking and talking about at a particular moment in time. so -- so it is not unusual to find out the prosecutors ab the

agents know about the information they seem to be seeking. so that is first. the second thing i'll say is, when this investigation started, the one crime that we knew had been committed was that somebody had hacked the dnc mails. before we knew there was an obstruction of justice or before it happened and before we knew what flynn did or didn't say and who he didn't meet with -- the ambassador, but we knew the dnc had been hacked and we also knew that the e-mails that had been hacked had been released. so we have crime -- two crimes and now several months later the special agent are talking to witnesses who may have known about that and had access to the information before and after it happened, at the end of the day it isn't that surprising. what is interesting about katy's scoop is she knows witnesses that are being asked about that. >> it seems to me, you brought up a good point. a crime was committed at the dnc and against john podesta. at some point mueller will

indict those that he decides committed this crime. almost in the same way he indicted the internet research agency to what they did on facebook. is that how you expect this to go. that he will narrowly go at the specifics of the crime, lay it out as a conspiracy and then where trump is a target, whether he participated in the conspiracy. >> well so -- i think we're jumping the gup a little bit on that conclusion. i think you are probably right there is a reasonable chance that robert mueller and his team may seek an indictment of the people who actually committed those hacks. but as you know, in any case in which people commit a crime or receive stolen property, you can join the conspiracy at any point along the way. some conspiracies are hatched before something happens, two people could decide to rob a bank and do it together and then later join as the getaway driver or somebody later join the conspiracy by getting the stolen money and disbursing it. there are ways along the path that you could join a conspiracy. and in this case the question

is, did anybody associated with the trump campaign either join the conspiracy before the hack happened, after it happened, but before the e-mails were released or later. that is the question. now we have to be careful because just passively receiving stolen information or stolen e-mails might not give rise to criminal liability but if you encouraged it and knowingly disseminated it afterwards, you could be an accessory after the fact and there are other crimes in addition to conspiracy. >> when we knew you were going to be on, someone in the staff brought up there is a similarity when it cams to bridge gate. on one hand you had the conspiracy you knew who it was but did you have enough evidence to charge governor chris christie but they could not know and not get charged. is that president trump's best hope here. >> so without touching on the bridge investigation because i've been very reluctant to talk about that particular aspect of

the investigation. the one thing that i will tell you is that before bob mueller or his team brings a criminal charge, they have to be satisfied that they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury that the people they indict were responsible for the crime with which they are charged. and if it doesn't matter if they are hiding in russia or on pennsylvania avenue. understood for them -- for them that charge they have to stand in front of a judge and jury under our constitution we could prove these people guilty without a doubt of the crimes. >> i understand the potential box i put you in a case you tried. thank you for coming on. >> thanks for having me. and up ahead, mo -- more breaking news. he bucks on gun debate but he will he stick to his guns? stay with me, mr. parker. when a critical patient is far from the hospital, the hospital must come to the patient.

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want us to do about what woulthis president?fathers i'm tom steyer, and when those patriots wrote the constitution here in philadelphia, they had just repelled an invading foreign power. so they created the commander in chief to protect us from enemy attack. the justice department just indicted 13 russians for sabotaging our elections. an electronic attack on america that the chief investigator called "warfare". so what did this president do? nothing. and is he doing anything to prevent a future attack? the head of the fbi says no. this president has failed his most important responsibility- protecting our country. the first question is: why? what is in his and his family's business dealings with russia that he is so determined to hide, that he'd betray our country? and the second question is: why is he still president? join us today. we have to do something.

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add everything onto it. and maybe change the title. the u.s. background check bill. but your bill is good and important. having to do with a certain aspect. but maybe we could make it much more comprehensive and have one bill. if could you add that to this bill, that would be great. diane, if you could add what you have also, and i think you can into the bill -- >> are you ready? >> are you do that, joe and pat? can you add some of the things. you won't agree -- if you help i like the word comprehensive. i would rather have a comprehensive bill. >> joe and pat, in your bill what are you doing about the 18 to 21. >> we didn't address that. >> you have to wait until your 21 but you could buy the kind of weapon used in the school shooting at 18. i think it is something you have to think about. so i'll tell you what, i'll give it a lot of consideration and i'm the one bringing it up. >> folks, remember that similar

live immigration meeting in the cabinet room it ended in a similar way, the president was in favor of a bipartisan deal and would back whatever deal the people in the room came up with and you remember what happened next. the white house that killed the bipartisan deal cooked up in the senate. and earlier i spoke with senator bill nelson and asked him for his takeaway from what he saw happen at this meeting. >> look at the body language of the republicans in the room. i think it is going to be a very hard -- for them to support anything that the nra does not bless. >> you saw president trump say don't be afraid of the nra. >> well, that is his words. but what have we seen? what have we always seen? what is happening right now and in your and my state capitol on this state of florida in the last week of the state

legislature. the kids have been up there and just having rallies, they are so impressive, they are so strong, they are so articulate. and yet look at what is happening. the nra lobbyist is locking down on all of the legislators. >> what do you make of rick scott's proposal? because i know you called it the bear minimum. but i look at it from a washington perspective and i look at what he did and -- and you've been here a long time. could you imagine many republicans introducing that series of reforms in the u.s. congress and having a snow ball's chance? >> well, when you have a slaughter like we have in our state for the last two years, nothing done after the pulse nightclub, then the ft. lauderdale airport, now the parkland shooting, you would think that there could be a revolt and these kids are the

spark that would cause that revolt. but we're seeing things settle down into business as usual. >> okay. but is -- do you -- how about this issue. which is it does feel like there are some people that look at the proposals, whether it is governor scott in tallahassee or senator tomby or cornyn and they say that is such a small thing. it doesn't matter. but is the good the enemy -- is the perfect enemy of the good. is this one of those cases? >> well, certainly it is not perfect if you do toomey's bill of background checks and they ought to be broader and universal so you pick up the mental issues and the restraining orders and the criminal back ground. that is certainly not the perfect -- the perfect would be

to get the assault rifles off the streets. but if you could get that first step, that would clearly be a good first step. >> let's talk about the specifics of the south florida, parkland florida shooter and the specific i have is what law do you pass that would make sure that if a school system identifies a troubled kid, that that information ends up in the background check system and how do you do that while also protecting an individual's due process? >> what you do is just like a restraining order, it could be a family member, this could be initiated by a school official. this person should not have a weapon. because there is some mental problem or something. and all of the due process is there because a restraining order would go through a judge.

so you've got your due process protection. but if you got universal background checks, that restraining order would be noted there. another thing that you could put in there, not only the no-fly list, you can't get on a airline because you are a suspected terrorist, but if you had been on the terrorist watch list like omar mateen had been, universal background check would have picked that up and he would have not been able to buy that sig sour mcx that he killed 49 people in orlando with. >> senator nelson, you weren't invited to the white house meeting and not happy about that. do you think it was an intentional snub or an oversight. >> it was intentional. i'm not unhappy about it. i think it shows the excessive partisanship if not the president, but at least those around him.

which is so silly. i mean, what people want is they want us to come together in bipartisan agreement. >> did they think you being there would hurt rick scott, your opponent. >> i have no idea, chuck. >> okay. well senator nelson, i will leave it there. thank you for coming on. appreciate it. and thank you for sharing your views. up ahead, the dark truth behind white lies. to get through a shift without a disaster. my bargain detergent couldn't keep up. it was mostly water. so, i switched to tide pods. they're super concentrated, so i get a better clean. i mean, i give away water for free. i'm not about to pay for it in my detergent. #1 trusted. #1 awarded it's got to be tide. and for a plant-based clean, try tide purclean

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welcome back. tonight i'm obsessed with the fake news. not the phony fake news that the president talked about but the white house fake news. as we told you, hope hicks announced she plans to resign one day after she told the house committee that president trump sometimes requires her to tell lies. just white lies. think about that. the white house communications director admits that she lies. lies. whatever the color, to the public. no one has attacked the credibility of the press more than president trump and his white house and when confronted with an inconvenient fact, you know the drill. >> just for the media, the fake news back there, fake news, i call it. >> fake news. >> fake news. >> fake news. >> fake news. >> fake news. >> fake, fake, fake. >> fake news, it is fake, phony, fake. >> fake news. and now this white house admits what we all knew to be true, that much of what it tells us is

fake. so how are we supposed to know when the white house is telling the truth. how do we know when it is lying. how do we know when the white house is lying, whether it is telling a white lie or something worse. by the way, we believe all lies matter. was it a white lie when president trump said there was to collusion with the russians or a white lie when he said there was no obstruction of justice. what it a lie when he said he would drain the swamp, hire only the best and never groped women and wouldn't benefit from his tax cut. you get the drill. new york times catalogue from his inauguration through early november. and these are just the ones we know about. what about all of the others? all lies matter. we'll be right back. in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. the name to remember.

. time for "the lid." michael steele, heidi and howard. i want to get to mueller in our big scoop here in which the president is the target.

it's becoming almost a monthly ritual, heidi, the president lets cameras in, has this little theater, the show, and lawmakers leave all happy. >> occasionally we get a little taste of the president trump that a lot of us thought may very well come into office, he bucks convention, he bucks his party, he tells it like it is. there's a lot of this stuff going on. the background check, i don't know if he was aware or he was just disregarding the serious tension in this room of manchin-toomey, i want strong back ground checks, do it without delay, do it. that was one of the sorest points in this congress is what happened in 2013 when they failed to get anything done, even anything minor. >> be sure to put that age thing in there, i like that, put it in the bill, i might actually

support it. >> and diane was like, put it in. >> and you had a flash back to the last time they were at that table and the democrats were like, yeah, let's do what he said, and republicans are going, oh, yeah, no. >> what did republicans call him, tuesday trump? >> wednesday trump. >> what i call it is reality tv conservatism. because it is -- you get all this conservative noise in this setting about what they want to do with the members and you've got the reality tv presidency, sort of three-ring circusing the whole thing and we get to watch. but at the end of the day, just like with health care, tax reform and immigration, but with this -- >> guess what we didn't get to watch, his meeting with the nra, no cameras for that one, was there? >> no, and he's secure in the knowledge of his own brand and he's basically, if he can take a little off the top for himself

and let the republicans dangle, he'll do it and that's what he did. >> the new mueller reporting that we had that indeed, and i think it was always the president always wants to say no collusion, no collusion, nobody said anything, those of us reporting on this knew that mueller wasn't done with this, now this shows you, no, mueller's not done with this. >> i never bought the whole collusion thing, i always thought the line would be obstruction of justice, follow the money and all of that would wrap back into a lot of other things, but here we are. >> there is a potential conspiracy, potential participation in a conspiracy. >> and it's how mueller has built this case that donald trump has found so frustrating because no matter what he's tried to do, every brick that mueller puts in that wall, creates a higher hurdle -- >> they're bricks, that's the most important thing, they're bricks, this is not a facade, or

a house of cards. this is a brick by brick. >> i think we can -- we're beginning to see what mueller's overall theory of the case is here, i think. and number one, it's that paul manafort was so deeply involved with you cukrainian politics, t manafort had to have known what was going on when he was chairman of the trump campaign, and the wikileaks aspect, what did trump know and when did he know it. did roger stone know something and did trump know it. and what motives or fears that donald trump knew that the russians knew about him and his contacts with russia. those are the three angles that are going to meet someplace i think, and whether it's the president or not, we're about to find out. >> the interesting building brick here is a week ago what were we talking about? the indictments issued against

the russians could be laying the ground work for future charges of conspiring with a foreign enemy. here we see that mueller very much is not done with the wikileaks portion of this which is separate and that we know there was actually communication at least close to the campaign, like roger stone, all the timing stuff that katie pointed to. >> he's already indicted this internet agency, we know he's going to indict the actual people and then it's going to be who participated in the conspiracy. up ahead, heart and souls.

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in case you missed it, an incredible moment on the basketball court in miami last night. >> seven seconds left, and he scores. it was a tough shot, it was a great shot. >> that's miami wade county's own dwyane wade. he scored the time shot against the 76ers. but did you happen to know this in wade wore these shoes, on the back read joaquin oliver. he was just 17 and had just become a citizen last year, he loved basketball, and dwyane wade his favorite player. earlier this week, he was buried

wearing wade's jersey. it was a small gesture, but one that would have meant so much to this high school student. playing in those shoes and making a shot that wade hadn't been able to do in years, maybe it's a coincidence, maybe not. i'm learning about that from watching you report it. that is a small but very touching gesture. thank you. appreciate it. we begin our show tonight with breaking news from a white house on the brink of crisis. two big stories that are breaking right now. one, a rare leak about the russia probe coming from witnesses who were inside the room detailing that after all the discussion of obstruction, bob mueller right now is back to collusion. and back to donald trump. here's the story, mueller's investigators pressing witnesses on a question that we know the white house fears most.