that's a wrap of this hour of "msnbc live." i'll see you at noon. stay where you are, because joy reid is taking off right now with "am joy."

i turn on the tv, open the newspapers, i see stories of chaos. chaos. yet, it is the exact opposite. this administration is running like a fine tuned machine. >> okay then. good morning. welcome to "am joy." those words are less true now than when donald trump said them a year ago. it's been a chaotic week in the white house. as the wheels came flying off the wagon again. on tuesday, jared kushner, whose business dealings with foreign governments may have landed him in a world of trouble was stripped of his top security clearance. marking what the "washington post" calls the fall of the house of kushner. on wednesday, we learned that trump would be losing his right-hand woman, white house communications director hope hicks. hicks announced her resignation the day after she testified to the house intelligence committee that her job responsibilities

had included being required to tell the occasional white lies on trump's behalf. trump's chaos became a problem not just for his white house but for the world when in a state of mind one official described to nbc news as unglued, he announced steep tariffs on steel and aluminum imports and sparked talks of a global trade war and threats of retaliation even from some u.s. allies. trump went ahead with his tariffs over the strong objections of his top economic adviser, gary cohn, who after being overruled may be planning his own resignation. that departure would thin the ranks of adults in the room with trump and that list grows shorter with thursday's news that h.r. mcmaster could be out as national security adviser by next month. the white house is pushing back on those reports. the only constant in trum's

white hou trump's white house is chaos. natasha, on this trade war which sent the markets tanking on the announcement, nbc news is reporting that trump was angry and unglued when he decided to spark a trade war. a trifecta of events set him off in a way that he had never seen before. hope hicks testimony to lawmakers, conduct but his embattled attorney general in the treatment of his son-in-law and his chief of staff. trump was angry and guping fo g a fight, and he chose a trade war. the reporting is that he didn't even consult with his senior staff before doing this. what's your reporting on that? this is a pattern we've seen with donald trump since he was inaugurated. any time there's chaos or he feels like people are criticizing him unfairly, he reverts back to the populist themes that pretty much carried him into the white house. so now that hope hicks is gone,

now that he lost his long-time bodyguard keith shiller there's a question looming over the white house, which is who is going to save the president from himself. hope hicks was the one at times who crafted his tweets, at times stopped him from sending tweets that she thought would be damaging to him and his reputati reputation. now that he's becoming unglued according to this reporting, is there anybody who will put the brakes on him and make sure that he's not doing things that are completely and totally impulsive? >> politico described donald trump as the loneliest man in washington. he has few advisers, few friends, few people he respects enough to listen to. he's feuding with john kelly, his chief of staff, because kelly says things that displease him. he doesn't like h.r. mcmaster. cohn, who stayed through the charlottesville neo-nazi cuddling now feels a trade war is a bridge too far. what's going on? how would they replace these people? are there republicans out there

who would be willing to take a job in the white house right now? >> i think there's republicans who would much rather test out new medicines that are for baldness than do that. nobody who a competent operative wants to work in this white house. the word is out. it's a miserable place to work. it's a place where you will be abused and undercut by the person you serve. look at what the president did on these tariffs? he did it impulsively. he didn't roll them out in any way, shape or form, designed to alleviate some concerns of our allies. we have australia, eu, canada threatening retaliatory tariffs. >> against levis. >> bourbon. these tariffs go against gop orthodoxy. if the president had been doing things with "forbes" magazine other than getting spanked and he actually read it, he would have known it's bad for the economy. but he is not a reader. he's not a thinker.

it's a knee-jerk impulsivity to do something because he's having a bad week and angry. that's bad. it's even worse he's lose flag support structure in hope hicks because she was human valium to him. i don't know who can save him? mike pence isn't. john kelly isn't. he's only trying to get jared and ivanka doubt per the president's wishes, bay the president can't even fire someone directly. >> producers wrote that. >> yeah. but he will never fire somebody to their face. he's worried about the mueller investigation. he got scared of the nra in the last week because wayne lapierre defied him the week before. republicans were furious about the gun meeting on tuesday orb wednesday where he took every democratic position and shut them down. nobody likes him. they say if you're lonely in washington, get a dog. even a dog won't be his friend. >> my goodness. that's scathing. >> that's good, because we don't

want a dog being with him. >> i found it amusing this week watching the likes of steven moore, who advised this president on economics going on television and hyperventilating about a potential trade war. donald trump ran on this. he said he would end nafta. he did pull the united states out of the tpp. which is still existent. we're just not in it. he already said he wants to destroy america's international trade relationships. do you find it as amusing as i do to watch republicans express shock that donald trump is wrecking the world? >> we told him. we told him. even if they weren't listening, we have been telling them for two years on this show, almost every weekend saying how terrible this is going to be. look. it's not that the wheels came off the wagon this year. it's that the wheels were never on in the first place. he's been running a dysfunctional white house from day one. he doesn't care about the country.

he doesn't care about governing. he only cares about trump. we've known that for decades. not yesterday. not this week. we've known that for a very long time. you know, people around him like to say, you know, he's the disruptor. he's going to disrupt politics. he will come in and change everything. but it's not disruptive. it's destructive. that's what he's dock. there's also people saying he's just a tv reality star. that's the way he is. but we're not getting "the apprentice." we're getting "game of thrones." the only problem with that is this is real life. so there are real-life consequences to everything that donald trump is doing. for republicans around him or republicans in general to be surprised, they have not been paying attention. >> there's also no -- there's no evidence so far at least that republicans on the hill will do anything about this. they're just letting the chaos play out. this while ironically enough, steve bannon, the sort of not so

curious alt-right person that was pushed out of the white house, now almost appears to have been the smartest person in the white house when he was there. he kept saying the problem is jared and ivanka. throughout the book, the michael wolff book he's quoted address sayi as saying that. now donald trump is saying the problem may be jared and ivanka. some aides have expressed frustration that mr. kushner and ivanka have remained at the white house, despite mr. trump at times saying they should never have been there. and now the counterintelligence unit may be investigating a business deal that ivanka trump may be involved in. a hotel tower in vancouver that may be under investigation. does trump want his kids in or

out? >> this is what evan was saying. donald trump does not want to fire anyone directly. right now he wants his chief of staff, john kelly, to tell his kids, to tell ivanka and her husband to go back to new york. >> is he the nanny? >> right. so he has to avoid this confrontation. he knows deep down that hiring jared kushner as his senior adviser was a bad idea. jared kushner did not have any political experience when he entered this administration. when he was managing the transition per he was meeting with foreign investors to get support for his 666 fifth avenue building which is over a billion dollars in debt now. he came into this still invested in kushner companies. he did not fully diverse himself from his business empire. he retained the vast majority of his stakes in that company. with that hanging over his head f you're a foreign country and looking at a point of leverage to enter into the white house, jared kushner is it.

this is why we saw the "washington post" report last week that these countries, china, mexico, qatar, they are trying to -- they've been speaking about how best to compromise jared kushner. this is what happens when you have someone come into the white house with absolutely no experience except for a particularly tumultuous history as head of this massive real estate company, be the senior adviser to the president. of course now we know he's actually lost his security clearance. so he's effectively been neutered. it would be very, very surprising if he and ivanka did not go back to new york. what is his role now? it's unclear. if their roles were not clear cut even before all this happened, they're even more blurry now. >> feels like his role is giving bad advise. it feels from looking at the trump white house, what it looks like is that trump who did not think he would be president opened the doors and said

everyone come in it's a feast for everyone. you are a cool executive, come on in, run the coal industry. ben carson, why would he be the head of hud? his wife and son own a development business. everything seems like it was about self-dealing and self-enrichment. at some point your party, the republican party has to have seen anything and figured that out. have they figured that out? >> i want to exclude jam mattes mattis who is there for the right reason, he wants to protect the country. we know about the bankruptcies, being the 17th greatest developer in new york city. i think nephews have better developments with their legos than donald trump. when you see that he goes out and announces the tariffs on a

whim, you don't do that as a businessman if you're announcing a business deal. donald trump is not being well served by himself. republicans understand that. what i don't get politically is why he would impose these tariffs when we're already facing strong headwinds in 2018 and the economy is pretty good, but with these headwinds you're going to actually destroy it and make it harder. why are we making it harder for ourselves to win in 2018? >> because he said at rallies he would do it. like the wall. he said in his tweet. we have a trade war. it's easy. >> thank you, evan and natasha. up next, collusion confusion. stay with us.

>> i will tell you this, russia, if you're listening, i hope you can find the 30,000 e-mails that are missing. i think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press. let's see if that happens. that will be next. well, that particularly memorable shout-out to russia regarding hillary clinton's e-mails is now raising the question at the heart of the russian investigation. what did donald trump know and when did he know it? nbc news learned that robert mueller is asking witnesses if trump knew that democratic party

e-mails were hacked before the public did. and whether he was involved in their strategic release by wikileaks. is this the beginning of the case for collusion? joining me now is paul butler, seema ayer and nick akerman. thank you for being here. let's start with nbc news reporting about trump's shout-out to russia about the missing e-mails. witnesses have been asked whether trump himself knew whether john podesta had already been targeted. they were also asked if trump was advised to make the statement about clinton's e-mails from someone outside his campaign and if the witnesses had reason to believe trump tried to coordinate the release of the dnc e-mails to do the most damage to clinton. paul butler, have we seen any evidence that has given us an answer on whether trump had advanced knowledge of what wikileaks has done before that

shout-out to russia? >> yes, we have. it's been clear for a long time that trump tried to impede the investigation of russian collusion. the question is why. this week, we got the answer, because he was trying to clued with t collude with the russians. so was it a nice thing, if you help me win the election, to the illegal act of conspireing to defraud the united states. we look at the timeline, the answer is yes. again. in april, george pap pap dapolo gets information, and then trump saying, russians, if you have dirt on hillary, let us know. then we have this release of dirlt on hi dir dirt on hillary that the russians have.

it looks like he was coordinating it. >> in the past we had this debate about collusion. i want to play this clip of june 24, 2016. lester holt in that famous interview with donald trump specifically talking about the question of the e-mails and the hacking of the democratic party. take a listen. >> you also made the claim that her e-mail, personal e-mail server had been hacked. >> her server was easily hacked by foreign governments. >> suggesting that as -- >> you don't know that it hasn't been. >> but suggesting she could be compromised as president wh. what evidence do you know that it was hacked? >> i think i read that, heard it. someone had given me that information. >> he read that, he heard it, someone gave him that information. this is june of 2016. he seems to have a lot of knowledge for somebody who was not colluding. >> collusion is the precursor to a crime. 18 months into this investigation we're still not

there yet. there have been 19 people either indicted and/or have taken pleas, but three companies. and there are no americans that have been charged with colluding, with -- >> there is one american, with the 13 russians that have been charged. >> pinado, the guy from california is the guy you're referring to. he was involved in the identity theft portion of that. let's look at that indictment. that's the indictment with the 13 russians and three companies. in that indictment they specifically say unwitting trump campaigners. no low-level trump campaigners were charged in thain dat indic. it was only russians posing as americans. nowhere in that indictment does it say the russian government ordered, directed, funded that internet research agency which is the crux of the

investigation. >> everyone knows an organization like that cannot operate inside of russia without the say-so of the kremlin. >> just talking about the evidence. >> that's not a strong argument. i want to let you in on this, nick, as well. the question of what trump knew about the hacking in advance is now of interest to robert mueller. we played from june of 2016 that donald trump seemed to know that hillary clinton or think that hillary clinton's server had been compromised. roger stone, his good friend, seemed to have advanced knowledge that the podesta e-mails would come out. he said his time in the barrel stuff. roger stone, private twitter messages obtained showed that stone and wikileaks communicated directly on october 13, 2016, and that wikileaks sought to keep the channel to stone open after donald trump won the election. that's new reporting. and if you look at these tweets from october of 2016, at 4:03,

trump recorded on a hot microphone about we. then the tweets about the podesta e-mails. >> you can go back to march of 2016 when we know they were hacking into the democratic national committee. a month later papadopoulos is told they have dirt, the equivalent of e-mails on hillary clinton. i don't believe for a second that papadopoulos did not relay that back to the trump campaign, and that trump did not flow about it. on june 3rd we know that ron gold stone wrote to don junior saying we have all of this compromising material on hillary clinton. it's whilely c lyhighly confide secret, we want to bring it to you directly. we were going to bring it to donald trump's secretary, but

it's too hot to handle. in the course of that, between june 3rd and june 7th there's all these e-mail conversations or phone conversations which we don't know about where more of this was discussed. we do know that on june 7th donald trump, after he won the new jersey primary, got on television, went off the teleprompter to say that he was going to detail all of this dirt on the clintons the following monday. so what dirt was that? the obvious inference is that was the e-mails that were stolen from the server. that is a crime. it's a conspiracy to violate the computer fraud and abuse act, title 18, united states code, 1030. it involves a whole bunch of people, going into those servers, stealing those documents. the object of which was to get donald trump elected. >> yeah. >> so he doesn't make any kind of press conference that monday. because what must have happened is in between either goldstone

and the russian lawyer showed up with the e-mails or somehow the e-mails got to the campaign, and they realized this is stolen property. under new york law that's a felony to possess is. it. so what do they do? they go out and give it to wikileaks. >> they put it out. >> but the one person who had conversations during that time -- you put on the board conversations that roger stone denied he had, but did have with wikileaks, but we know from his own admissions and statements that he made in the summer of 2016 that he was communicating with both gussafer 2.0 and wikileaks. >> and he's saying he loves wikileaks. he mentions wikileaks 145 time during the campaign. >> that's part of the evidence we have.

we have donald trump jr. connected to wikileaks. we have roger stone connected to wikileaks. somewhere to prosecute this -- i defer to you, sir, how do you connect donald trump to this? >> very easily. >> to prosecute? you won't go in front of a grand jury with this. >> he was using the same language that don jr. was telling in telling voters to go on the when site and look at the wikileaks stolen e-mails. >> the most damaging information that came out during the campaign was that access hollywood tape. after that, these e-mails come out. it's to deflect. >> it could have to ab seria be series of incredible coincidences. coming up, jared is in trouble. that's next. ♪

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jared has been an outstanding job. he's been treated unfairly. he's a high quality person. he works for nothing, nobody ever reports that. he gets zero. he doesn't get a salary. jared is truly outstanding. it was a brutal week for donald trump's son-in-law and senior adviser, jared kushner. first he was stripped of his top secret security clearance. then came a "washington post" report that foreign officials privately discussed ways to manipulate him, followed bay report in the new york times that kushner's family business received massive loans after white house meetings with an equity group. and then robert mueller's team

is skrcrutinizing whether kushner's business decisions affected things. joining me now is malcolm nance, nathsha baltram. malcolm, starting with you. we talked about the bank meeting that jared kushner had. we know he met with anbang, which owns the waldorfs astoria. explain why the needs of jared kushner, why does that pose a national security risk? >> well, because you may be trading on government information, government intelligence. we don't know whose side you may be trading it for. you may be an agent of a foreign power or using classified information for your own

enrichment. he met with the director of veb bank, known as the bank of spies, run by an ex-kgb officer. went to them for money without telling anyone. when you go out and reach out to oshgizati organizations like that, then the chinese, qataris, united arab embrats while supposedly an official working for the united states government every one of those governments can now blackmail you. >> we know that jared kushner among his portfolio were these business roundtables, trying to meet with executives. we know from the "new york times" that both citi group and this apollo investment entity met with jared kushner and then bank loans were forthcoming. we know the co-founder of apollo global management ponied up 1$14 million. the ceo of citi group ponied up 3$325 million to jared kushner. we know he was doing these

deals, do we have a way of connecting that back to his work, that he was presenting, listen, i work for the white house, that's why you need to give me these deals. >> the strongest link so far is that he was asking qatar for -- he met with the former prime minister of qatar for an investment in that big property, 666 fifth avenue. that deal ultimately fell apart. when it did, around the time that it fell apart, kushner was very, very instrumental in advocating for an economic blockade against qatar. he sided with the saudis and the emiratis in that dispute. he was the one who pushed -- tillerson was against the blockade. he countered tillerson. if you're looking at this from qatar's point of view, you say we backed out of this deal. this is retaliation against us for backing out of this deal. now we see that qatar is considering cooperating with

robert mule ner theller in this investigation. they say they have decided not to for now, but this is one more link between policy and jared kushner's personal final dealings that mueller is scrutinizing closely. as far as the apollo and citi group deals go, was there no one else who could have taken those meetings? there's little reason to believe that kushner would not have known these companies were poised to invest millions into his companies when he took the meetings. the fact these companies did invest roughly 5$500 million ino his companies right after he held the meetings is very, very problematic. >> you wrote a piece up in the daily beast talking about your own experience dealing with the russians, when in their minds you were willing to present them intriguing and valuable information in your intel post. explain to us how -- how they would have viewed jared kushner and what would they have wanted from him? is it as simple as wanting top

secret information he was getting or lower level than this? >> the russians would have said we will comfort discussion of a loan, but we'll stay for the possibility of treason and espionage. you don't need to have a completed transaction. this can start off as natasha's reporting has talked about, this can start off as something that could be legitimate. but then it moved to something else. the danger with someone like jared kushner is because he is such a vast empire of business dealings, even if those were above board, it provides an access point. it provides a way for a foreign intelligence agency to come in and say we want to talk to you about something legitimate, about business. then they make a hard right turn. once you're in. you're in. that's the danger here. on top of that he's in 1$1.5 billion debt. i don't think the russians were looking to pay off his debt, but what you saw in that meeting before trump took office was an approach. the other part of that approach is that michael flynn was there. the russians looking at this

might have thought, my goodness, look what we're getting out of michael flynn. we have an asset recruiting swin else on our behalf. >> richard painter, even if you could put aside the potential for espionage, giving america's secrets away, the corruption in some of this seems shocking that nobody flagged it. on the apollo global management piece, 1$184 million deal done with kushner, shortly after kushner companies received the loan from apollo the private equity firm emerged as a beneficiary of the tax cut package that the white house championed. it feels like there are so many ways in which this white house is trading money for access. >> well, yeah. it's the same old story of money for access, and bribery prosecutions are very difficult to prove. we found that out with senator menendez of new jersey. there are other examples.

the supreme court made it hard to go after people for bribery. politicians are doing this. jared kushner is one of the worst. he doesn't even belong in the white house. there's an anti-nepotism statute, the only reason he's there is the justice department came up with a convoluted opinion justifying this appointment by president trump. he doesn't know anything about foreign policy other than negotiating bank loans for himself from russian banks and chinese banks. he keeps forgetting about his meetings with the russians. and robert mule ser heller is hs tail. i don't know why he's in the white house, he should leave and take his wife with her and maybe she can take her father. we'd be done with this foolishness. >> does the emollients clause, does it also apply to jared kushner? >> it applies to all of them.

everybody who has a position of trust with the united states government. it's not that clause that is weak, congress is weak. they want to sit around, do nothing but collect their own campaign contributions from the nra or whoever their buddies are. focus on getting re-elected rather than doing their job. that's what's weak. it's congress that's weak. >> at the same time, you know, malcolm this weakness is taking place amid a pretty stark reality, right? we don't know what the 130 odd people who are operating with interim security clearance in the white house are being given. we don't know what top secret information donald trump is declassifying and giving them, we don't know what they're doing with any of it. >> you don't know how they're operating on a day-to-day basis, what's coming across the desk, whether they're living up to the standards of keeping that classified information secure. quick note about jared kushner. you know, i think the mueller

investigation, when they finally start focusing on him, someone will be tasked out to go through the type of intelligence he had access to, on what particular day, was he getting extra reports from the treasury intelligence division? was he bringing information from the cia about the altani family in qatar on the day or days before doing these things? you can match raw intelligence or analyzed intelligence to a person's behavior. that's how we catch spies. if he had been doing any of that, if anyone in the white house has been doing any of that, they will be caught. >> yeah. >> and really quickly, last word to you, if he did a little would he be able to stop doing it if he played ball with these foreign entities that wanted information from him? >> the damage is done. the minute you trade one thing -- doesn't matter what that context or what it is classified as or what it impacts, you committed a crime. once you're in, it's like being a little pregnant. there's no such thing.

either spy or not going to spy. it's a binary question. once he's in, he's in. we'll find out that he was trading his access to benefit and enrich himself. >> thank you very much. coming up in our next hour, trump's nra obedience, and another white house departure. more "am joy" after the break. trying something new can be exciting. empowering. downright exhilarating. see for yourself why chevrolet is the most awarded and fastest growing brand, the last four years overall. switch into a new chevy now. current qualified competitive owners and lessees can get this 2018 chevy equinox for around $199 a month. chevrolet. find new roads.

does the president want to get rid of his attorney general? >> not that i know of. >> could you elaborate on the relationship between the president and the attorney general? does the president believe the attorney general is disgraceful? >> the president made his frustrations clear. >> the presidential bullying of attorney general jefferson sessions has a clear pattern. donald trump feels the heat of the mueller investigation closing in and attacks his corner general for refusing the department of justice to pursue his political enemies. this week he called the attorney general's handling of the situation disgraceful. this week he called sessions mr. magoo. joining me now is clint watts, and jason johnson.

so, clint, what do you make of this platelatest round of bully and what looked like a response. jeff sessions you a t s of awe with rod rosenstein? >> i don't agree with a lot of his policies but i like what he is doing. he is following the rule of law an going through a procedure. he has repeatedly said he is not going to be pushed into an investigation if he doesn't believe it is justified. for him to keep walking forward and not quitting, you don't do that. if there are ground for being fired, you do it. he is one of the barriers that's towing the line right now. >> there are a couple of different theories as to why he

doesn't quit. march, 2017, session recuses himself. trump calls him an idiot in may. in july, he says he would have picked someone else if he knew he would have recused. in february, he twreeets about s lack of action. jeff sessions, theory one, is that he wants to continue doing the job and theory two is that he is having such a marvelous time persecuting brown people and deporting immigrants, he can't stop, will stop. which do you believe? >> i think door number two. he has waited his whole life to apply his special brand of bigotry. jeff sessions has all the wheels of power. this is the thing, joy. he is not just not leaving because he wants to be able to free police to abuse people.

he wants to scale back reforms. he wants to be in a position when everyone falls down around donald trump he wants to be one of the last men standing. a lot of people went in for the glory, money, power, reality tv shows. jeff sessions has an idealogical goal. he is not going to let anybody pry him out of the white house. >> he was considered the favorite senator of breitbart. he was a bannon ally. steven miller, is still embedded in the white house and writing donald trump's speeches and policy. he is an eidealogue. b b what would happen if donald trump fired him? >> they said, if you fire

sessions, we have a disaster times ten compared to thome. you are knocking everyone down on what appears to be destruction. we have so much turmoil. we have seen nothing get done. we just talked about, what do we do against russia moving forward? there is no plan. i think jason is right. the idealogue pursuing his agenda makes me very nervous. >> you have a special counsel examining trump's apparent efforts to oust session. people telling the post a key area of interest is one of those efforts. >> for those horrified by jeff session's entire world view, he seems to be the thing, he and rod rosenstein, that are standing between the u.s. and a complete constitutional crisis

regarding the mueller probe. >> if donald trump says, i'm just going to fire jeff sessions, we don't know who he could pick next. we have no idea how the department of justice will respond. we don't know if jeff sessions being there is holding the line against a constitutional crisis or we don't know if the next person trump picks might end up turning on him again. we don't know which one is going to harm us worse. >> rob rosenstein makes it clear he stands by robert mueller. the person right behind him has already announced she is leaving. give us a read of what happens

after that. who is lower in command in the d.o.j.? are there people that will stand up to trump? >> i think there will be. it is starting a tidal wave. from my experience with the department of justice, they are very much about the rule of law in doing their jobs. that's why you are seeing republicans and democrats that were appointed in different eras stay over between presidents. president barack obama, president bush before him. what's important here to note is that trump has run out of firings. he can't go around firing people anymore. the one thing that attorney general sessions has is his friends in congress. he came from the senate. he has republican backers that are colleagues for 20, 30 years. this actually is a lever that sessions has that maybe many others don't in terms of pushing back against president trump. >> we shall see. clip ton wat clinton watts, thank you very much. very impressed by your dress today. >> jason johnson is sticking around, who looks amazing always

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i like taking the guns early like in this crazy man's case that just took place in florida. he had a lot of fire. to go to court would have taken a long time. you could do what you are saying but take the guns first and go through due process sec. it doesn't make sense i have to wait until i am 21 to get a

handgun but i can get this weapon at 18. i was curious as to what you did in your bill. >> we didn't address it, mr. president. >> somebody can buy a handgun at 21. this is not a popular thing to say in terms of the nra but i'm saying it anyway. welcome back. over the course of a few days, we learned who the real bos s i when it comes to guns. trump surprised everybody by seeming to break with his party on guns. he suggested raising the age where you can buy a assault weapon from 18 to 21 and suggested confiscating guns from the mentally ill. republicans were quick to downplay what looked like a rift with the nra.

>> it was a bit astonishing to hear his language there. you can that you can that up to just he misspoke. >> the president has challenged the congress. he has challenged the nation. i have seen this movie before. >> unwilling to give an inch shall the nra quickly dismissed trump's comments as nothing more than a photo op. >> i thought it made for really good tv but i thought some of what was discussed is going to make for really bad policy that is not going to protect our kids. >> by thursday, the administration was walking back its rhetoric. trump met with the rna in a meeting he described on twitter as good -- great. the nra's top lobbyist tweeted, potus and vpotus support the nra. >> the nra weelields a lot of pr

in the federal and state levels. the florida senate is set to hear a bill that could ntains mt gun provisions that could lead to arming teachers. that's what the nra and uber b lobbyists want. joining me now, a man whose daughter was among those shot in the parkland shooting. what do you make of the debate going on in tallahassee? there is a lot of pressure on families to do something on gun reform. all they are doing is modest reforms. they are still not willing to do things like banning assault weapons and to take the steps that displease the nra. what do you make of that? >> i love the fact that i live

in florida. unfortu unfortunately, we have elected officials that can't get out of the way of the nra. it is mind-boggling to me that this session could potentially end next week without any reform, let alone mild or modest reform. i'm learning an awful lot about the political sausage-making process. two weeks ago, i was just jamie and jesse's dad. this process is ugly. i am baffled and confused and annoyed and enraged at the fact that the elected officials of this state are putting more free dense then the nra than the msd, marjory stoneman douglass, the

high school that just got shot up. the business leaders are showing you can go up against the nra and you will be fine. they are a nothing organization, other than the aura of power. you can go against the nra and be fine. for those elected officials that won't do the right thing on behalf of my family and all the others, we will fire them. >> were you familiar with marion hammer before all of this happened? >> no, but, boy, i have gotten a lot of articles on her since. from what i understand, she is an awfully powerful person in tallahassee. she is the nra lobbyist. when she says how she wants things to go, there is a lot of people in tallahassee that fall in line, shamefully so, even after a tragedy like this. >> let's talk about marco rubio. you confronted marco rubio at

the cnn town hall and had some words for him. marco rubio waited until well after that event was over to tweet about the students in parkland. he said the debate after parkland reminds us that we the people toent lidon't like each very much. we smear those that refuse to agree with us. we claim ju day owe-christian heritage but celebrate arrogance and have infected the next generation with the same disease. i believe he means the survives of the parkland massacre, the students and friends of your late child. >> don't be easy on him. you don't believe that. it is what he said. it is what he means. i'm going to say this about senator rubio. i replied to the comment you just read directly to him. senator rubio needs to stay out of this. clearly, he has nothing productive to add.

the idea that he called me, those kids, not nice to him. i lost my daughter. >> those kids live through a tragedy. we have every right to speak up and speak out and demand action. marco rubio, you know what, you have no business being involved in this if you can't be productive. i is wawant to say something ab senator rubio. every single elected official in the state that represents me, as well as some on a national level or from other states, called me to offer condolence. senator rubio, not even a tweet. not even a text or phone call. the idea that he is going to judge me and the other families when he is the only person that didn't personally reach out, i am sorry. you have no standing to speak to us on this issue. you lost that long ago. you are clear as to who your commitment is to.

i do not want to hear from you anymore. if you would like to meet with me one-on-one, so you can hear from my heart and my head and keep the cameras out, i would be happy to do that. nothing would make me feel happier than to know you and i can come to a place where we agree on something related to gun safety. i would be open about it if you did. the positions you are taking and the word you are using right now, you have no standings, my friend, none. >> we want to hear from you and from the other families what you want to see in terms of gun reform legislation. what would you want to see? >> an honest effort that leads to a real result. as a father -- let me take a step back. i love this country.

i love the democracy. i love the process, no matter who is in charge, because it is truly american. what i don't like is what happened this week. i respect my elected officials. i respect them. if you take the time to run for office and get elected, whether you are on the house, senate or president, i respect you. respect is a two-way street. what we saw so far this week was a dog and tony show. it was a game. i kind of felt like i was part of a chess match. i don't play chess but i know there is a lot of strategy involved. what we saw with the show that was public with everybody sitting at a table around the president was a game. it was a charade. it was fake. it was intended to show us they were doing something without ever having the intent to do anything. respect is a two-way street. i respect my elected officials and i need them to respect us and the families that just lived

through this. what they did this week, to quote one of my favorite people, one of the kids who lived through this massacre, i call b.s. what they did this week was b.s. i expect them to put a real efforts, real legislation, have real hearings and take steps in regards to gun safety. we can debate what that is, in regards to public safety, and fortifying buildings, not just schools but buildings so that we can go out in public and not have fear of being shot. >> what do you make of donald trump's reversal on the issue of whether or not a 19-year-old should be able to buy an assault weapon? he seemed to agree with the majority of masamericans that a 19-year-old should be able to b and then he changed his mind. >> you are a business person. you should follow them and not

be afraid of the nra. stick with your spine. stand up. stick with what you said. follow your business leader friends. they are showing you the way. do not be afraid of the nra. >> fred guttenberg, thank you so much for speaking out. we give you our deepest condolences. thank you. >> my panel now joins me to discuss this. i want to get your reaction to what you just heard. >> as powerful as he was the night of the cnn town hall when he called marco rubio pathetically weak, you heard what he said in those very emotional words and to paraphrase kanye west, what fred g guttenberg just said is that the national rifle association does

not care about dead, american children. we can not count on any republican officeholder to show us the signed legislation that is going to bring about the change necessary. it is these parkland parents and students that are setting the lead for this country. america's corporate interests are following suit. you see what delta did when they say their values are not for sale. we listen to this president of the united states to say something on one day and something on the other. only a fool would believe anything this compulsive liar talks about. what former republican congressman jolly said, if you want action on gun control in this country, if you want gun reform now, you need to vote out every single republican member of congress. until that happens, don't expect any action on gun control. >> as if to reinforce that point, cthere is no plan of

action for any gun legislation ahead of the two-week easter recess in the end of march. the senate will take up mark crapo's bipartisa bipartisan re. people on both sides of the gun debate agree this is modest, has 49 sponsors in the senate. mr. mcconnell cannot sidestep senate rules to bring it to the floor for a vote because unanimous consent is required to do so. one senator has objected. not to mention the money. here is how much money they spent to help donald trump. $54.4 million on the 2016 election. $31.2 million to elect trump. $19.28 against clinton. that part of obedience seems to be unchanged. >> the republican party and

donald trump are subsidiaries of the nra. that is just a fact. what you listed out shows that over and over again. in the past week, donald trump has spent more time meeting with the nra than meeting with gun violence victims. that is where we are. everything that he is doing and saying that makes you think he might make a change is just a head fake. he is going to go inline. he will not do anything that the nra does not want him to be doing. one of his first executive orders was to make it easier for ment mentally ill people to get guns. the only way to stop this, is that this is it. in november, we have got to go to the polls. we have to kick these folks out and make a big statement. that's the only way anything is going to change. >> jason, i want to play for you two presidents talking about the issue of guns.

one of whom is speaking from a point of view of absolute obey sa sance and the other is ronald reagan. let's listen to donald trump. >> you came through for me and i am going to come through for you. the eight-year assault on your second amendment freedoms has come to a crashing end. you have a true friend and champion in the white house. no longer will federal agencies be coming after law-abiding gun owners. >> i do not believe in taking the away the right of the citizens to own guns for sporting, hunting, and so forth or for home defense, but i do believe that an ak-47, a machine

gun, is not a sporting weapon or needed for defense. >> jason, is there a way to wrestle the shock collar off of the republican party when it comes to the nra or do they have to be defeated at the ballot box? >> the only way you can defeat them is at the ballot box. there is an inherent dishonesty and disingenuousness with the way gun owners are often represented. people in my family own guns. they are not the crazy. the nra are the crazies. i was at that speech last year in atlanta in 2017 where trump spoke. i thought it was very interesting. this is a state, georgia, where they had guns everywhere. you can bring guns in the class, into xhucchurches and have them the way around. you weren't allowed to bring guns in the room where trump spoke. why? it was dangerous. it is inherently problematic.

arming teachers is a good idea. you want to give guns to all those teachers protesting in west virginia. at the end of the day, the american people realize that if money is going to talk, the opal thing that talks louder is votes. i see a lot of republicans and democrats with high grades getting booted out of office in november. >> quick. last word to you. does anything pass in this session? >> absolutely not. because governor marion hammer won't allow it. thank you all. much more "a.m. joy" coming up. stay with us.

i intend to present a new law that will lead to the creation of gun violence restraining orders, something that will give law enforcement and close family members the option of obtaining a court order to prevent gun sales or remove guns from individuals that pose a threat. >> florida lawmakers are under growing pressure to act on gun reform in the wake of the parkland massacre, even prompting nra compliant politicians like marco rubio, to propose some modest measures this week. the florida legislature refused to take up a bill that would ban

assault rifles. true to nra form, the florida bill would clear the way for arming teachers in public schools in florida, because that's the way the nra wants it. in florida, the nra always gets what it wants. at least for now. joining me to discuss are andrew gillham, tallahassee mayor and candidate for governor and robert ascencio. i am going to start by playing some video of you, representative ascencio. this was you on the floor of the florida house talking about this idea of arming teachers. take a listen. >> i have been involved in shootouts and seen children die as a result of gun violence. think back to your eighth great english teacher. tenth grade art teacher.

do you trust them not to panic and do the right thing? do not arm your teachers. fund public education and mental health. do ban weapons of war. >> that is not you on the florida house. that's a video you did. you are a former police officer making an empassioned plea not to put guns in the classroom. >> i base that on being in law enforcement in school safety. i helped train police officers and commanded officers that have not only responded to school incidents where there were shootings but i also responded to incidents. i have to tell you that the skillset it requires under an extreme circumstances of mass shooting where you have all kinds of literally chaos going on requires some specific skillsets that officers are continuously trained for.

they continuously are evaluated and held to a standard. if police officers who train continuously commit mistakes, what's going to happen with those individuals who are trained in a limited fashion? i think it is a very bad situation. it is a cheap fix and attempt to break away. the real need is to address the epidemic of gun violence and the erosion of dollars from the public education and system where less psychologists and less counselors and less security. it all costs money. it is a quick fix to not putting the adequate money in the budget to have police officers present not just in the schools but added in the streets where a lot

of these incidents are occurring on a daily basis. >> there is a shift, it feels, andrew gillham in the political wins. it used to be that democrats why loathed to talk about guns where in florida marion hammer is essentially the permanent governor of the state. she says jump and all the lawmakers say how high. you tweeted out this week that you are going to take the pledge, the no nra money pledge, which is a national organization that is trying to get people to say they will never take any money from the nri. y and you are running for governor and so is gwen graham back in 2013. >> i am a very big supporter of the second amendment. my husband is in law enforcement. he wears a gun every single day.

so i am a supporter of the second amendment. i think any law-abiding citizen should not have their gun taken away from them. this is gwen graham now in response to the parkland shooting. she tweeted, florida's gun laws are embarrassing and shameful. we can change them now. ban weapons of war like the one used in parkland. not one more enough. she is also running for governor. is that a sign of the way the democrats will now henceforth talk about guns in the state of florida. >> the gwen graham that ran for congress would not recognize the gwen graham running for governor. i guess the news flash would be that the shooter in parkland did acquire his guns regally. many of the mass shootings we have seen in this country were done at the hand of people that acquired those weapons of war legally. within no longer law-abiding citizens after they became

murderers, which is why it is we have to attack the issue of assau assault rifles and bump stocks and high capacity magazines. i am pleased to see the congresswoman now campaigning as a gun reform advocate. i wish she had campaigned that way when she ran for congress. i hope we can understand which is the true one. i was just in parkland yesterday registering young high school students to register to vote. we have to make sure our young people are registered to vote. if you agree with me, we will reward you and if you disagree, we are going to work to take you out of office. >> i appreciate na sentiment. i want to have both of you hang on.

i want to bring in pamela o'keefe. she is a democratic candidate for florida's 18th congressional district. pam, you were in the military. explain for us whether or not you any it is a good idea to put gun ns guns in a classroom with students and teachers. >> as a formal naval officer, it takes a great deal of training, to not just hit a target but to do so when you are under extreme adrenaline pressure. that's what happens when you have an active shooter situation. the adrenaline is going to be running high. it is far more likely that a teacher is going to hit another student or an innocent bystander than to hit an active shooter. if we have $67 million hanging around in our budget, shouldn't we be spending it on paying teacher's what they are worth? this is a whole new skillset they are being asked to take on. you have to collectively bargain

that. it would make bringing teachers into the state of florida that much more difficult. to be honest, this is just another stupid idea from the nra, whose entire purpose is increasing gun sales. aur probl our problem is not the nra but the gop. the only way to resolve that problem is to vote them out. >> let's talk about the bill winding its way through tallahassee right now. i am going to start with you. it is very unpopular. a new poll shows them under water. their preferred bill is going to cause all 67 counties in florida to purchase more guns, which is what little marion hammer wants done. what are the chances that that

bill can be defeated? we'll start with you, representative? >> even as we speak, the senate called a special day to meet. they are meeting right now in chambers. i understand there is all together between the house and senate version, roughly a little over 100 amendments. this bill is far from being shaped. i'll tell you this much. in the house, there are 116 members presently sitting in the house. the majority of them are republican. there are 76 republicans. they will need the majority, 58, 59 people to pass a bill. they have the authority as they have the authority to introduce any legislation at any point. they haven't been able to bring this bill to the floor because they simply do not have the numbers. we are looking at sheer numbers. if they did have the 59 members they needed to pass this bill, they would have brought it to the floor. here is another point, a very good point to make. physical a republican majority

who basically crafts the legislation. since we are the minority, we have to fight for every bill that comes to the floor and gets agendaed. they basically pass what they want. so, really, the fact that they haven't brought it to the floor and the fact that they had to table it friday and now we are looking at bringing it back monday is very telling. the students came up and the parents. this movement must continue. it has done more to shape policy than we have been able to do in the last 25 years. >> andrew gillham, you have fought marion hammer in court. you can't make your own gun laws or ban guns from parks. is there a future we can see of a florida where you as mayor of tallahassee can stop people from carrying an ar-15 into the city park. >> they sued us because they

said you can't shoot guns in city parks. you can't shoot guns in parks where our kids play and our families picnic. they thought that was so radical. they took us through court, because florida law allows them to take on individual elected officials and drag us through court for a public policy difference. i have to say on this piece of legislation, the republicans know exactly what they are doing. they inserted the poison peel of arming teachers with weapons rather than salary increases. they knew that democrats would not support that piece of legislation. i wish i could be less cynical. i believe they are doing what they want, want nothing to happen. >> pamela, you are running for the united states congress. is this a time in which you can run affirmatively on gun reform? >> i think you have to run on what your true beliefs are no matter what the time is. i want to remind the viewers that florida is the stand your ground, trayvon martin state, which means anybody can have a subjective belief that they are in danger and use lethal force.

they want to introduce that into the classrooms where our childrens play dramatically increasing the day to day risk of lethal force just so it can mitigate the once in a lifetime risk of an active shooter. i totally disagree. i have been campaigning activity on gun reform since 2015. i do so because that is my conviction that more guns does not increase safety at all. i believe that's the right thing to do, whether it is politically expedient or not. >> florida politicians that are not afraid of marion hammer or the nra, good to talk to you. thank you all. still to come, white lies. that's next.

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the legendary hope hicks. she is shy. a great person. she has done an amazing job. i have a great staff, one of whom comes from connecticut, hope hicks. she comes from connecticut. this is hope, this is hope, this is hope. nobody takes more phone calls, i think, in a day than hope. thank you, hope. >> this week, the white house reality show saw its most surprising exit. the department of hope hicks, the long-time trump family friend, employee and confident, who rose from her 2012 role as i have trump's fashion designer. the announcement came one day after she told the white house committee she sometimes tells white lies for trump. joining me now, david corn,

msnbc analyst. how big of a deal is it for donald trump that she is gone? is she gone because she is in legal jeopardy or because she feels she has somehow placed donald trump and his family in legal jeopardy? >> it might be a sign of sanity that she is leaving which i think you can say about anybody in in administration. we see how people are responding to her departure this week. she is a security blanket. she is human valium for donald trump. why do we have a president of the united states who needs a babysitter? that's how she is essentially described. she keeps him from having tantrums on twitter and she is close to him. it seems the only person in the white house who is given be the attribute of being able to have any sway with him, more so than his own family, is a 29-year-old former model an p.r. executive. i do think unfortunately it seems significant she will be leaving the white house.

why? i don't understand why people stay. so asking why someone is leaving is a hard question for me to come up with a speculation on. she did testify she has been telling white lies for the president. one of the biggest ones was a whopper right after the election whether she said there was no contact whatsoever between the trump campaign and russia. that's a little bit more than a white lie. that's sort of a gold lie in terms of getting to the essence of what they had to cover up. she was in the middle of that. >> it was sort of a babysitter's club. i thought that was ivonka's job. a couple little clips here from "vanity fair" that was published on march 1st about her. she is in immense personal jeopardy. this is a sign the mueller

investigation is a lot more serious than any of us thought. another piece from "the new york times" on january 31st, mr. corallo, who re-signed as a spokesman for the trump legal world, planned to tell investigators that miss hicks said during the call that e-mails written by donald trump jr. before the meeting where he said he was eagle to receive political dirt will never get out. she seems to be more and more of a central figure in that cover-up. >> a lot of the media was doing this geography of her being this innocent fashion model who was in there, the accidental bureaucrat. that is not true. hope hicks on the air force one meeting was involved in the crafting of not just lying to the american public but it was to set out a framework in how they were going to respond to everything, the news media, to

congress and everyone else who would come in there, which means when she got called in for her little meeting with rob mueller in december, she has two options, tell the total truth or lie and go to prison. everybody else who is going to option number two, we have already seen their indictments. maybe she is still playing this game where she is maintaining her job but i'm certain right after that interview, she decided that's when she was going to leave government. >> david, she has also been central at least -- she was communications director with her job to crack the communications, but in the cover-up of the rob porter situation which they are not telling the truth about, which precipitated the loss of security clearances for people like jared kushner. is that part of the reason she is out the door. >> she is also involved in being part of the inner circle when donald trump fired jim comey.

she is in the middle of a lot of different tornadoes, some of which have, i think, very real legal implications for trump and possibly for her with the rob porter situation. john kelly seems to have been blaming her, because he needs a scapegoat, right, for putting out the earlier defensively statements about rob porter, who she was dating at the time. we joke about this being a reality show. there has never been a more dysfunctional white house, at least in modern times, at least in the era of television, as dysfunctional and incompetent as these folks are. we have vladmir putin talking about new nuclear weapons, which may or may not be true. we need people in there who know how to put out at least a statement. >> and who might respond to vladmir putin. that would be nice as well. malcolm and david, we are out of time. coming up, reports of a billionaire businessman, friend and former adviser of donald

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we have had communication with delta. had they had treated everyone in terms of their discounts fairly, we wouldn't be in this situation. but instead, they chose to single out the nra and their member, law abiding gun owners. and i don't think that's right. and so i have to govern based on principles. and obviously they have a choice to make. >> on monday, the lieutenant governor of georgia gave atlanta based delta airlines a choice. restore travel discounts to nra members or he personally would lead the charge too cull a jet fuel sales tax exemption that benefits the company. well, delta decided not to obey. the company is standing firm and severing its ties to the nra. on thursday, the republican majority in georgia passed a tax cut bill that did not include an exemption for the jet fuel sales tax that delta used to enjoy.

delta's response, "our values are not for sale." though the bill passed without the jet fuel exemption, governor nathan deal is considering a separate bill that will include it. theresa tomlinson and stacy abrams join us. stacy is running against lieutenant governor kasie cagle for the governor ship of georgia. stacy, delta airlines is not a small corporate citizen in georgia, it's a pretty big one. the economic impact on georgia, delta is the number one private employer in the state. it added 6,500 state employees since 2008. it contributes $300 million alan to the state and local government through taxes and fees and donated $10 million to local charities and organizations. it also has not always been hubbed out of the state of georgia. already since the threat by

casey cagle, delta has had invitations from the governors of virginia and ohio and others who have said they can come there. has mr. cagle made a mistake in your view by threatening this huge corporate citizen of the state of georgia? >> absolutely. there is no question that by invoking his powers, the lieutenant governor, to threaten a corporate citizen who wanted to exercise its rights, that he made a terrible mistake. while there is an economic dimension to how lieutenant governor cagle threatened delta, let's not lose sight of the human dimension of this issue. this is about gun safety. this is about children dying. and unfortunately, lieutenant governor cagle decided to make this about his campaign for governor. and unfortunately on both sides of the aisle, we have people who are using this incredibly tragic moment but also this opportunity for change as a way to, i think, distract us from the real issue at hand which is the need for gun safety in america.

>> in addition to being a mayor, you're also an attorney. i want to ask you about the legality and the ethics. i want to put that tweet up, i will kill any tax legislation benefits delta unless the company changes its position and fully reinstates its relationship with the nra. is there an ethical or legal problem with doing that? >> you don't have to be a lawyer to know that's unseemly, it looks to be political blackmail. stacy has said -- we have a republican attorney general, we don't know exactly where that's going to go, but who really has a claim here is delta. frankly they have a first amendment right violation against the state of georgia, a claim that's valued, georgia admits, to be abouts $50 million. you cannot by official state

action frininfringe upon the ri of political or commercial free speech which they have done. many people forget this, but in 2015, delta had had this tax break for some period of time, when they spoke out against, when delta spoke out against the religious liberty bill, it was stripped from them by the republican legislature. they all agreed that georgia needs this for jobs and to promote this georgia brand, delta, and so they were going to put it back in. and now it was pulled away from them again because they exercised their commercial and free speech related to the nra. so they're really the ones with the claim. >> very quickly on this, stacy, you are running against stacy abrams, and you against casey cagle, it's pretty tight. is this an issue that can win in the state of georgia? >> yes. and i want to point out i am the only candidate running who has never received the stamp of

approval of the nra. my opponent, ms. evans, voted for one of the most egregious gun bills that we've seen coming through the state of of georgia. i'm running because we need common sense gun safety that protects children, protects people from suicide, and makes certain we have the kind of prevent measures put nonprofits like bans on assault weapons and universal background checks that can save lives in the state of georgia. >> i wish we had more time. thank you both, really appreciate you both being here. more "a.m. joy" after the break. up to a gillette shave. and at our factory in boston, more than a thousand workers are starting their day building on over a hundred years of heritage, craftsmanship and innovation. today we're bringing you america's number one shave at lower prices every day. putting money back in the pockets of millions of americans. as one of those workers, i'm proud to bring you gillette quality for less,

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that is our show for today. "a.m. joy" will be back tomorrow, 8:00 a.m. eastern. alex witt. to prove we're the same person in two different bodies, look what we wore today. >> it's like "i dream of jeannie." >> have a great show. >> how am i supposed to stay serious after that one? i'll give it a shot. aim alex witt at msnbc headquarters in new york. here's what's happenings. an exhaustive week from the white house. we'll look at the events that might have the most impact. >> 25% for steel. it will be 10% for aluminum. >> steel wars. new reaction to the president's tariff remar a