and he is 80-year-olds so he will leave a significant vacancy and also the tenth longest serving senator in u.s. history. thanks to mark, frank, john and a.b. that does it for our hour. i'm nicolle wallace with "mtp daily." and the woman of the hour. katy tur. congratulations on the spell-binding interview. >> i don't know if congratulations were in order. >> let me defend the congratulations. you brought us someone we don't know about and showed us what maybe the mueller probe is doing to the witnesses and the other thing is the kind of people donald trump was attracted to at the beginning of his political career. >> i will say it is a stunning reversal from what sam was saying not even 24 hours ago. we're going to get into that. nicole wallace, thank you very much. appreciate it. and if it is monday, you won't believe your ears. wait until you just hear -- until you hear what just happened in the russia

investigation. >> tonight, dark days at the white house. as the russia probe digs deeper into the president's inner circle, a former trump campaign aide said he'll rip up his grand jury subpoena but that trump may be in trouble. >> do you think that they have something on the president? >> i think they may. >> what. >> i think he may have done something during the election. >> plus the $120 million question, why the state department has yet to spend any of the funds set aside to fight russian meddling. and shades of blue. do democrats have a chance of turning texas. this is "mtp daily" and it starts right now. >> good evening. and welcome to "mtp daily." i'm kate your toin for chuck to.

and robert mueller is asking direct questions about what the president knew about wikileaks and when he knew it, according to witnesses. and now one witness, sam nunberg, a former campaign aide who last week spent hours in an interview with robert mueller's team is now deciding he will not comply with a grand jury subpoena. it is a sudden and some might say suspicious reversal considering what nunberg was telling me last night. that he had every intention of complying. here, though, is what he told me on live tv this afternoon. >> i'm not going to cooperate when they want me to have -- when they want me to come in to a grand jury for them to insinuate that roger stone was colluding with julian assange. roger is my mentor and like family to me. i'm not going to do it.

>> what has happened in the last 24 hours that made you change your mind on this? >> when i was going over everything today, when i look at the -- the subpoena, this is ridiculous. should i spend 50 hours gooding over all ov ov over all -- going over all of my mails with roger and steve bannon. and then they wanted maie-mails had with hope hicks, with cory lewandowski. are you giving me a break? you know what they asked, which is ridiculous to me. they asked things like did you hear people speaking russian in the trump office? >> who. >> katy, i did not hear people speaking russian in the trump office, okay. that is ridiculous. >> are you worried about getting arrested? >> i think it would be funny if they arrested me. >> he sent the subpoena and in it mueller asked for all documents related to steve

bannon, hope hicks, cory lewandowski, paul manafort, keith schiller, roger stone and the president himself. and while he said it was laughable that robert mueller wanted communications between him and carter page because there were none, at no point did he express any concern about producing the documents, text messages or mails or phone logs, notes, et cetera, going all the way back to november 2015. >> sam, is anybody from the trump white house contacted you? >> no. >> has the president contacted you? >> no. >> has anybody from trump's legal team contacted you? >> no. >> has roger stone told you not to go to talk to the grand jury. >> no. >> has steve bannon told you not to talk to the grand jury? >> no. >> well that right there was interesting. it is what nunberg told me about what mueller might know about the president that might be the most explosive part of that interview. >> you sat there in that room

being questioned by mueller's investigators. i want to hear directly from you. do you think that they have something on the president? >> i think they may. >> what? >> i think he may have done something during the election. but i don't know that for sure. >> why do you think that? >> i can't explain it unless you were in there. >> my colleague kristen welker asked press secretary sarah sanders before the nunberg charge in the briefing room moments after our interview ended. >> nunberg, the president's former campaign aid is refusing a subpoena by a grand jury and he said on msnbc moments ago, i think he, meaning the president, might have done something but i don't know for sure. >> he doesn't know for sure because he is incorrect. as we have seed, there is no collusion with the trump campaign. anything further on what his actions are, he haebts work-- ht

worked at the white house so i can't speak to him or the lack of knowledge. >> joining me now is matt miller from the justice department and now an nbc news analyst. and also our panel. former clinton adviser and sirius xm director zer lena maxwell and political analyst and associated press white house reporter jonathan la mere and political analyst and former rand paul adviser alise jordan. matt i want to start with you. what was your reaction to the sam nunberg interview. >> he is not behaving very intelligently in thinking about how to respond to the subpoena. excuse me. the real question is if he is behaving with a small degree of rationality, not the way he is going about this. not doing interview. but if his decision to change course and not cooperate with the investigation, not come in and appear before the grand jury when the penalty is an appointment with the u.s. marshal and time in jail, if he is doing it to protect something

or to protect someone, because otherwise this doesn't make a great deal of sense. so i think that the choices we're looking at is either he's just acting completely irrationally and had a meltdown and under a lot of pressure and doesn't want to cooperate with this investigation for no good reason. or there really is something he found over the weekend, he found looking through his e-mails that use worried about producing to the prosecutor. either way he doesn't have a lot of choices. >> he wasn't concerned about this last night. he thought it was funny. but he wasn't expressing any indication that he would not be doing this. not be appearing in front of the grand jury or submitting all of that documentation. in fact he was talking to ari melber recently, i think in the last couple of weeks, after he was interviewed by robert mueller's team and he told him that he did not think it was a waste of any taxpayer money or a waste of his time. listen to that. >> i was happy to cooperate with them. as i told you on this show -- >> it sounds -- >> but the point is that it wasn't a waste of taxpayers'

money to have me in there and it wasn't a waste of time for me either and i'm happy to have been in there and cooperated. >> so he said that after the interview. last night he wasn't expressing any reservations. what could have happened? i talked to him 10:30, 11:00 last night. what could have happened in the intervening few hours, handful of hours before 2:00 p.m. today? >> that is where i think he's either had a break under the pressure and he's just -- what we saw was a little bit of a meltdown. or he found some piece of evidence in the e-mails or he had some conversations with roger stone or somebody else and seemed very concerned in the interview with you about protecting roger stone and brought him up a number of times. and that is leading him to now try to not cooperate and not respond to a subpoena. it is not an intelligent choice. because if he doesn't show up at the grand jury, robert mueller will move to ask a judge to hold him in contempt of court and he

will sit in jail until he comes and testifies to the grand jury. >> is it all but certain that will happen. i asked that because i imagine if sam is able to snub his thumb or just not do it -- the term and phrase got me mixed up. if he's able to say no and not go in front of the grand jury, i'm not going to produce these documents, doesn't that set a precedent for everybody else? >> there is no way he'll get away with it. for two reasons. number one, robert mueller has a reason to call him before the grand jury. either there was questions he refused to answer in the interview that mueller wants to compel him to answer or maybe there is evidence he provided in the interview that mueller wants to get into the grand jury to get an indictment. so he has a good reason to call him before the grand jury and he won't let him off the hook because he doesn't want to show up. that is the first reason. there is just no way he'll let that. and the second one is you state -- you can't let every other witness in this investigation or any federal investigation to look at this and say i can thumb my nose at a lawfully issued subpoena and refuse to show up.

it is absurd. no prosecutor would let a witness get away with that. >> thumb my nose. thank you for that. john you covered the campaign with me and sam was there early on. he was fired early on. but he goes back in time quite a while with donald trump and he's also somebody who is very close with roger stone. >> he has deep ties to both men. roger stone is a name that keeps coming up and was trump's unofficial political adviser and the fringe part of the republican establishment, someone who is a dirty trickster who has a tattoo of richard nixon on his back. nunberg had a part in the early days of the campaign. he's taking credit for the idea of a wall as a symbol for donald trump's hard lard immigration plan, the wall along the mexico border. he clashed with cory lewandowski, the first official campaign manager.

>> and also clashed with trump. >> he has. he has since renounced trump in the months that follow but he still skriexisted in the world. you covered the campaign as i did and he is still always on the phone. he sort of hears and talks. he is still in the trump universe. and there is no question why he would be an interest to robert mueller. >> he is still in the outer circle. matt, one more question. at the end of the interview i asked what he thought of the interview and whether he thought mueller had anything and he said he thinks that they do. he walked out of that interview feeling stre strongly that they knew something. how much credit should folks like us give sam's words? >> i'm not sure i give it too much credit. based on watching that interview, someone with that kind of meltdown on television, i'm not sure how much i want to -- how much credence i want to give his opinion because it is not based on fact, but becaused on the questions he was

asked. i will say, one thing i thought was interesting, in your follow up question he said not only did he think that, but he was talking about steve bannon last week and bannon thought that -- that the president might have done something wrong in the campaign. bannon was there for a longer period of time than nunberg was there at a more critical period of time and when the wikileaks released john podesta's mails and there for a critical period in the white house. so bannon's opinion -- if it is true that bannon is saying that, that is something that i find very increasing. >> i want to talk to people in the subpoena. rick gates, hope hicks, carter page, roger stone and everybody has left or is about to with hope hicks except for michael cohen. >> and that is what i wonder about given today's news, the "wall street journal" story that michael cohen was report -- he wanted to get repaid for the $130,000 that he paid to stormy

daniels to cover up donald trump's affair with stormy daniels. and that was the lead news story. somewhat. there was a lot going on. but now sam nunberg's interview have moved that to the background and something that sam said that i find interesting when he was going through a lawsuit with donald trump over his nondisclosure leaving the campaign, is he accused them of fec violations or not having a firm enough wall between the trump and campaign spending. so i wonld -- wonder if this could have something to do with that. >> he's made inflammatory accusations and i can't confirm them because i don't have the resource to confirm that at the moment. but he has said things about the fec and potential payments. the likelihood that robert mueller probably already knows what is in those filings, obvious they are public record but how the money got there and how donald trump spent his money. >> that was the red line that donald trump said if gow into my finances, if you go into my

family business, that is a red line that we don't want robert mueller to cross. but it put a target for robert mueller to aim at. in order to look through all of the money. and i think that it is clear that the walls are closing. in there is a lot going on and certainly as lee said there are a number of different stories that could have been the top story today. and he got on tv twice today so say i don't have enough time to go through mails requested by the special counsel but you have time to do national television interviews. the special counsel certainly saw that and will respond forcefully. because nothing that robert mueller has done to this point, not just the no knock warrant orn paul manafort's home but charging rick gates with lying during his prover. the fact that you are coming into -- in to offer evidence to the special counsel and make a deal and you offer misleading evidence and then that is additional charges, that is all before the final plea agreement.

i think that showed that bob mule ser not here to play games and i also think that when you hire andrew wiseman, someone who prosecuted the top executives from enron, when andrew riceman was dealing with andrew fast ow, the person that testified against the higher ups, he charged his wife with tax fraud. when you hire that person first in your team of special prosecutors on the team, you are not here to play games. >> you are not messing around. >> let's not let the sam nunberg news muddy the water. this is still an investigation. regardless of whether he does appear in front of the grand jury, the subpoena he got is telling. the names that are on it are telling. when you saw this news, did any name pop out at you? >> no. not really. these are the people that you would expect. it is very interesting that he continues -- that -- >> why keith schiller. >> that is the one i was about to say. the special counsel has interest in keith schiller. accompanied him on the trip to moscow, the subject of the

dossier. but also was around donald trump for a great deal of time. there is one thing that is not on the subpoena and that is jared kushner. we know he's a focus of the investigation for a number of reasons. not sure why he was left off. it may be just that mueller believes that sam nunberg never had any contact with jared at any time. >> we were talking to chuck rosenberg and he said investigators will put a bunch of names on a subpoena list in order to hide who they are really after that, that it could be two people on this list, matt. >> that is absolutely right. it could be a long list and they want to see names about two people not tip their hand. it could be they already have all of his mails. they either got them from the trump campaign or if he uses g-mail or yahoo, they've getten them from the e-mail prosider to see -- provide to see what a witness is holding back. >> he said he was asked about the 2013 miss universe pageant and whether he heard anyone

speaking russian and a number of things but when you look at the pa pageant, not surrounding the dossier but surrounding the dossier. did trump have any women up to his room. what does he know about that and he told a story from keith schiller. about eman aguilara offering women to come to the room and keith schiller blocking the woman and then calling keith later on, a year or so later, while they were all on a trip to new hampshire and keith getting off the phone and saying, eman was bad news. he's always trying to get women to see trump and he didn't want donald trump to see eman while in north carolina. this is a story from sam. we should caveat. but that does raise some questions. >> sure. the idea that donald trump for a long time was a person of interest for the russians and they could see being useful. for his political ambitions or other means. certainly it seems like he was on their radar, even as far back

as 2013 for the miss universe pageant and prior to that. certainly sam said that keith waved this off, suggested that donald trump was too smart to fall for this but it does fall into -- look, you mentioned stormy daniels. we know that donald trump has -- issues on this subject in the past. and it is not so crazy to think that russians could think they themselves could get compromise on trump using similar means. >> matt, one final question, could an -- and excuse this terminology, could this be a confederacy of dunces. >> yeah. the confederacy of dunces that commit crimes. one of the worst arguments from the president's defenders is they were too dumb to collude with the russians. dumb people commit crimes all of the time. you don't have to be smart to have a vast conspiracy. but that doesn't mean all kinds of crimes that we'll see robert mueller hone in on. >> great book. >> thank you.

zer lena and jonathan, up ahead, senate news of a big retirement and ben cardin will join us and there is more to talk about from my interview with sam nunberg. keep it right here.

welcome back. tonight in meet the midterms, some breaking news. mississippi republican senator thad cochran just announced he will resign at the beginning of next month. in a statement the chair of the senate proopged committee cited health as an ongoing challenge. he was first elected to the senate from mississippi in 1978. and he is the tenth longer serving senator in u.s. history. according to law, phil bryant, a republican, can appoint an interim successor and there will be a special election in november. that means there will be two senate elections in mississippi with roger wicker up for

re-election. and this announcement may also shake up that race. just last week mississippi state senator chris mcdaniel announced he would challenge wicker in the republican primary. but the question now is will mcdanell decide to switch races and run for the other mississippi seat. that remains to be seen. and on the democratic side, party officials were hustling to find one strong challenger to run for senate this november. now they have two. now they have to find two. we'll be back with more "mtp daily" in 60 seconds. as you can clearly see,

the updates you made to your plan strengthened your retirement score. so, that goal you've been saving for, you can do it. we can do this? we can do this. at fidelity, our online planning tools are clear and straightforward so you can plan for retirement while saving for the things you want to do today. nana, let's do this! aye aye, captain! ♪ and as you go through life -whoo! -♪ tryin' to reach your goal >> he did not collude with the russians. it is the biggest joke to think donald trump colluded with the russians. i could tell you donald trump, when he was involved in conservative politics did not help his business. he did not want to attack hillary clinton early on in the campaign. he wanted to attack jeb bush

because it wasn't going to be -- it wasn't going to be good for him and had he not won the primary he would probably endorse hillary clinton. >> welcome back. that was more from interview earlier with former trump adviser sam nunberg. let's bring in democratic senator ben cardin of maryland. he serves on the senate foreign relations committee. thank you for being here. >> it is good to be with you. thanks. >>what do you make of that interview with sam nunberg? >> i heard that he's defiant in regards to talking to mr. mueller. i think it just spells out it would be better off if mr. mueller would do the investigations than what he is saying now on cable news. it is important information. and it is information that will help connect some of the dots in the mueller investigation. and he needs to cooperate with mr. mueller. >> what dots do you think he would help connect? >> well, obviously there has been a lot of connections between individuals in the trump administration and the trump campaign and russia. that is the purpose of the

mueller investigation. and it is important that mr. mueller now be able to have full access to all who have information to see where it leads. to see whether there is anything that needs to be further investigated and to draw a conclusion. >> let's get to a little bit of other bombshell today that has gotten buried with all of the other news and this is the times reporting that state department has yet to spend any of the $120 million granted to fight russian meddling. why is that? >> katy, this is outrageous. we know that -- that mr. putin has attacked our country in the 2016 elections and we know that he's using misinformation and cyber against our democratic institutions. and that is why congress on a very strong bipartisan vote authorized additional funds to be spent in order to protect ourselves and why the appropriators put the money in the budget and now we find out that the state department is yet to spend any of the funds in order to protect ourselves. that makes no sense whatsoever.

>> and what else can congress do? >> well, i'm sure this is going to be an issue that will come up in this year's appropriations and next year's appropriation. we have passed laws and we expect those laws to be followed. the one thing that we've learned from mr. putin's activities that it requires our leadership in the executive branch to take these attacks seriously. and so far we haven't seen that. >> you're committee came out with a report in january detailing two decades of efforts by russians to undermine democracy, to meddle in -- elections. it is two decades. why is this threat not taken more seriously before 2017 and the end of 2016. >> mr. putin has upped his game every year. 2016 we saw that as he played out in our elections in 2016. we are very concerned about what this will mean in 2018. we've seen in europe a much more aggressive -- mr. putin, we've seen him finance opposition

parties. we've seen him finance a coup in mont meg row and so it is an escalation over the years and i think 2016 we saw for the first mr. putin trying to interfere in our democratic institutions. so it is an escalating -- >> a slow burn. >> forms of aggression. >> a slow burn potentially. any talk to additional sanctions. i know the president hasn't enacted the sanction, but is there talk between republicans and democrat about upping those. >> we pass these mandatory sanctions against russia by 99% vote in the house and the senate. so it is overwhelming. these are mandatory sanction. and so far the president has not enforced the mandatory sanctions for the cyber attacks that

russia did against the united states, have not been enforced by the president. yes, we'll monitor very closely and we expect that -- he must apply the sanctions and we'll be looking at additional ways that we can make it clear to russia that congress is very much engaged in making sure that that type of conduct will be held accountable. >> and the new yorker has a profile of christopher steel, the man behind the dossier. and there is also a memo in that -- that they cite a memo of steel said that the kremlin stopped the trump administration -- stopped donald trump from hiring or appointing mitt romney as secretary of state. they wanted somebody friendlier to russia. you have heard anything about that in congress? >> well, we would not be surprised. we know that russia -- mr. putin

meddles in domestic politics. that is something that, first, we want mr. mueller's investigation to understand exactly who was involved in that type of activity. but number two, what we need to do -- and i saw action from the house this week by republicans. we need to defend ourselves. i asked for an independent commission in the beginning of last year in order to defend ourselves. we do that after the attack on 9/11. we need to take steps in america and the report that you referred to earlier spells out numerous recommendations for protecting ourselves, in addition to using the funds that were appropriated, we also need to defend our system of elections. we need to work with our european allies to take action against russia. what does it mean under article 5 under nato if beef been attacked by cyber. there are things we must do to defend ourselves. >> and you glossed over the question whether or not you heard anything about this talk that russia was able to stop

mitt romney. you have heard anything about that? >> no. i have not heard specifically about that particular issue. but as the report spells out, russia used asymmetric weapons in order to try to compromise our system of government. so it would not be surprising to see them engage in this type of activity. >> senator ben cardin. thank you very much. >> thank you. and ahead, voters in texas head to the polls tomorrow. could they set off a big blue midterm wave? we had long deployments in iraq. i'm really grateful that usaa was able to take care of my family while i was overseas serving. it was my very first car accident. we were hit from behind. i called usaa and the first thing they asked was 'are you ok?' they always thank you for your service, which is nice because as a spouse you serve too. we're the hayles and we're usaa members for life. see how much you could save with usaa by bundling your auto and home insurance. get a quote today.

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officially kicks off tomorrow in a big way. in a big state. texas voters are heading to the polls tomorrow. and we could get the first clues about how big avenue blue wave may be heading for republicans. right now we're seeing evidence of highly motivated democratic voters in a lot of places, including deep in the heart of texas. the early voting numbers there are staggering. nearly 50,000 more democrats than republicans have voted so far in the state's 15 largest counties. that is a 105% increase in democratic turnout from 2014 while the gop turnout has increased just 15%. yes, this is just the early vote count in the 15 largest counties which are more democratic but if democrats can maintain then enthusiasm through the midterms could it translate into results. that is the texas-sized question. they house districts in texas voted for hillary clinton over donald trump in 2016. all three could be pick up

opportunities for democrats. and if that kind of enthusiasm holds, could democrat beto o'rourke give ted cruz a scare. joining me now is one of the top political observers out there, charlie cook, editor of the cook report. charlie, your top line reaction to what is going on in texas right now? >> i think it is just one more example of -- that intensity matters and if you think about the last six mid-term elections, either the house or the senate or both have flipped in four out of six. and turnout is lower in these mid-term elections. so who votes really matters. and with apologies to any civics teachers watching, the two strongest e -- emotions are anger and hatech and this intensity donald trump was able to harness in 2016, but right

now the anger, the hate, it is on the democratic side. and we've seen that in state legislative elections where democrats have picked up 39 from republicans. republicans have only picked up four. statewide elections, last year, we've seen where republicans who were underperforming in key special congressional elections by seven, eight, nine points, all kinds of diagnostic indicators. canary in the coal mine. we're seeing a significant intensive deferential between the two sides. >> you have three texas house seats that are a toss-up or in the lean gop column. significant again because it is texas. right now if you are looking at those particular congressmen, would you rather be the incumbent or would you rather be the democratic challenger? >> well, to me, the path to -- if democrats get the 24 seats they -- the net gain they need, the 218, i think the path will

not lead through the south and it is not going to lead through texas. to me, if democrats are picking up a couple of seats in texas, that is icing on the cake. what you are really looking at is a stretch of suburban districts that start in new jersey and pennsylvania and just go straight across the country. but there are some in texas, some in florida, one in georgia, where democrats do have some opportunities. but that is not -- that is not where the core of the 24 seats the democrats need to pick up are likely to go. but they could pick up a couple even in texas. you've got the young voters and women voters that are really hyper agitated and that -- any republican in a district that either hillary clinton carried or that donald trump won by two, three, four points or less, that is in danger. >> you name john col berson, will hurd, pete sessions as vulnerable republicans and when

you are talking about demographics, are you focused on women and younger voter? >> no. but that is where -- younger voters tend not to vote in mid-term elections. so anything they do in mid-term elections is -- is something to watch. >> the bar is not high for them. put it that way. >> exactly. exactly. and a lot of women voters that were thought to feel strongly in 2016, a lot of them didn't vote or threw a vote to jill stein or whoever that it did not get behind hillary clinton in the way that barack obama was able to attract minority voters. so this is bringing a lot of people into the party that simply weren't there in 2016. >> what about latino voters? >> absolutely. absolutely. now, the thing is though -- i'm a little -- in texas, yes, but i'm not sure what donald trump could have said or done that would have ticked off latino voters more than he did. and they didn't vote.

>> in the campaign. >> in 2016. so that -- that may well happen. but i'm looking more at younger and women voters. >> black women voters have been the -- have been the deferential in places like virginia. is it going to be across the country, the black women voters that come out that could be the difference-maker for democrats over republicans? >> that is one group. but it is going to come by -- they already go democratic by big margin. and a lot of african-american women have -- they have voted in reasonably high numbers already. >> certainly in alabama as well. >> yeah. so it is all -- it is all of these things. but we're looking at -- we're looking at a lot of signs that the anger and the -- mid-term elections tend to be dominated by people that -- whose noses are out of joint and people that are upset. and because the turnout is so

much lower in midterms, they have a disproportionate voice and that is what is happening here and that is what we saw for republicans in 2010 and '14. >> trump voters were angry in 2016. democrats are angry had 2018. i guess we'll see if the trump voters are still as angry as the democratic voters are and who wins out in the polls. >> and does that convey over to republicans not named trump. >> very good point. charlie cook, thank you very much. >> take care. and we'll be watching the big primary day tomorrow. ahead, a standoff between lawmakers in west virginia. and this is really fascinating story. it forces a nationwide teacher strike into the second week.

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school is still out for 277,000 students in west virginia and who knows when it will be back in session. they are in the second week of strike and they are demanding state lawmakers give them a 5% pay raise. they walked off the job on february 22nd. many of them have swarmed the state house in charleston to protest. west virginia public school teachers are among the lowest paid in the country and they say they can't pay their health care costs and struggling and that is why they are striking. the west virginia house of delegates approved the 5% boost but the state senate only approved a 4% hike. and so far lawmakers have yet to

meet to work out a deal. 35,000 employees work in the west virginia public school system. we will see if this spreads to any other states as well. we'll be back in a moment. there are two types of people in the world. those who fear the future... and those who embrace it. the future is for the unafraid. ♪ ♪

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discomfort and swelling. ask your doctor if coolsculpting is right for you and visit coolsculpting.com today... for your chance to win a free treatment. welcome back. it is time for "the lid." and our panel is back. let's start where -- let's end where we began. sam nunberg is going to be on at 6:00 with ari melber. he's already said a whole lot. what could possibly be compelling him to make such a public show of his defiance? >> you could -- competing theories here. either this is a brilliant and well thought out strategy hyping maybe a book he is trying to sell and this is -- this is performance art and that -- maybe there is -- you know, some kind of an advertisement, theatrical component, or this is

just probably not the best legal tact to take with robert mueller's team. >> you've talked to sam a lot. do you think it is a meltdown? >> it is hard to say. certainly he is -- it is of character that he of character be ex-you know rent. we can remember the house he tweeted out falling down on the wicked witch from the "wizard of oz." i think that was about corey lewandowski. this is, you know, he is someone who -- >> sam's fire ing had to do wit facebook posts. he does say inflammatory things, and that's putting it mildly. >> sam is someone we all dealt with a lot and someone you have to come in with a fact check sometimes.

i think he says it to be helpful, and sometimes says things that he would have heard second or third hand. it's not always something you can take without being corroborated. >> coming from the other side of this, coming from somebody who worked on the clinton campaign, who was there as the e-mails started to be leaked out, what did you make when john podesta's e-mails came out one after another every single tday from october 7th to november 7th the day president trump was elected. >> we knew it was russia. many of the intelligence experts before the intelligence community said it was russia. there were a lot of computer experts that were working with the campaign that told the campaign that it was russia, because the meta data that they found that was a part of the hack was in russian. so there was a lot, i wasn't necessarily on this small group of people that was working on the podesta e-mails, but it did

impact every single day. as soon as the podesta e-mails started coming out, which was the night that the "access hollywood" video came out, there was a team that had to teal wdeh it every single day to see what was in there, risotto recipes and potential slogans. it did distract us. it did take time away from working on the campaign every single day. we were being attacked. >> donald trump also waved nose e-mails, not every day, but in the leadup to the election, we have mashups saying that. but it's not going away. it's been nine months. the white house thought it was going to wrap up by thanksgiving, by christmas, the end of the year. it's not wrapping up. is it obvious that that is what's getting under donald trump's skin? or is it a generalized, there's

no order in the white house in. >> i think both those things are true. when we see outbursts, they can be connected to the russia probe. it is a cloud thrown over the white house this entire term. and i will say this. we've done some reporting at the ap of how morale is at a record low in the west wing. it is about the staff departures. questions still remain, even though john kelly seems to have a firm command. and still white house aides who suggest the chief of staff is not telling the truth as to how the porter incident went down. we're seeing the president lash out at jeff sessions. can you take anything he says about face value about gun control or tariffs or anything else. people in there are worried. they're upset. i think we've seep mon more

departures, talk that there could be more coming. it's very hard for this white house to bring in any wone else. in and who might want to be part of the investigation that might be obstruction later on. >> legal fees for life. >> as sam noted, he didn't want to send over all the e-mails, it was teime-consuming and the legl fees as well. is this goodness or bad news? >> i don't think it necessarily helps donald trump to have a former aide say that yes, he does believe something is up with the russia investigation and collusion. you have to hand it to him to be able to hijack the news cycle. >> does he discredit himself? >> if nothing checks out, i

think the environment is so ripe right now, whether it's true or not, for anything to spread that that unfortunately is toxic to figuring out what is actually going on. >> i also think that whoever that campaign, sam didn't make the move into the white house. it had much more real world consequences. it could be he's playing with fire here with the mueller investigation, not really realizing what's at stake. >> thanks for being here. and ahead, what's tougher than brain surgery? while this was burning, you were saving other homes. neighbors helping neighbors and strangers alike. - this is what america's about. - sometimes it's nice to see all the good that's out there. bringing folks out, we have seen it in community after community.

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in case you missed it, here's our official mtp daily short list of really, really difficult jobs. rocket science and brain surgery, right? every job gets compared to rocket science and brain surgery, well, if you ask hud second ben carson, can you add hud surgery, he was quoted saying there are more complexities here than in brain surgery. doing this job is going to be a very intricate process. ben carson should know, i guess. he is a retired brain surgeon. once considered within of the best in his field. the story inspired this 2009 made-for-tv movie gifted hands, starring cuba gooding jr., it was based on his auto biography.

but according to him, government work is tougher. maybe it's time for another biopic. ben carson in hud work. it's not brain surgery, maybe? who knows. the beat with ari melber starts right now. you've got a good show. >> thank you, kate eie, and we begin tonight with breaking news. sam nunberg is here with me live. he is here after he made some news today, saying he received a new subpoena from bob mueller and plans to defy it. he is the first witness to publicly say he will not cooperate with the mueller probe. that shook the legal and political world as just about anyone with any stake was assessing the meaning of a former t