>> you would like to see some change in the people around you, does that include your attorney general jeff sessions or either of your cabinet secretaries? >> no, i don't really want to talk about that. i just said that the white house has tremendous energy. it has tremendous spirit. it is a great place to be working. many, many people want every single job. i read where oh, gee, maybe people don't want to work for trump. believe me, everybody wants to work in the white house. they all want a piece of that oval office. they want a piece of the west wing. and not only in terms of it looks great on their resume, it's just a great place to work. it's got tremendous energy. it's tough. i like conflict. i like having two people with different points of view. i certainly have that. and then i make a decision. but i like watching it. i like seeing it. i think it's the best way to go. i like different points of view. but the white house has a tremendous energy. we have tremendous talent. yeah, there will be people, i'm not going to be specific, but

there will be people that change. they always change. sometimes they want to go out and do something else, but they all want to be in the white house. so many people want to come in. i have a choice of anybody. i could take any position in the white house and i'll have a choice of the ten top people having to do with that position. everybody wants to be there. and they love this white house because we have energy like rarely before. okay? thank you very much. >> thank you, sir. mr. prime minister, last year, you criticized the president for drawing a link between immigrant crime and the recent arrivals of refugees. this week, one of our own flagship papers, "the new york times" actually profiled a link between hand grenade violence and immigrant gangs in your country. do you stand by your criticism of the president? >> first, sweden, we have our share of domestic challenges, no doubt about that. so, and we inherited a legislation that was not sustainable, legislation on

migration, which meant in 2015, we received 163,000 refugees seeking refuge. bear in mind, we've come to 10 million inhabitants so that was a lot. 70% of them came from september to december which meant it was a dramatic increase. we changed the legislation. so now we've decreased the number of refugees entering sweden and we're also putting pressure on the other european union countries to take their share of the responsibility. this is not a responsibility for one, two, three, four countries. it is a shared possibility. we're working with that within the european union. so, we, of course -- we also have problems with crime, organized crime in sweden. shootings. but it's not like you have this no-go zone. we have -- we have dealt with it. i'm dealing with it every day.

allocating more resources to the police. more police have been trained. more resources to the security police. tougher law on crime. tougher law on terrorism, supporting terrorism. so we do a lot to combat that. we can also see some results now in many our three major cities. decreased shootings because we're attacking the organized crime very tough, and we'll keep on doing that because there is no space in sweden for organized crime because they -- they decrease freedom for ordinary people. at the same time, sweden have a high growth. unemployment is going down. employment is going up. we have high investment rates. we're allocating resources to the welfare. we have a strong, strong economy with a surplus. huge surplus that we're now using to develop our society with, for example, the welfare that we want.

so the picture of sweden need to be -- it's two pictures. yes, we have our share of domestic problems and challenges, no doubt about that. we're dealing with them. and we also have a good -- good foundation for dealing with them. not least, with a strong economy and the shrinking unemployment. okay. thank you. >> thank you. this is an election year for both of our countries and i want to ask you, mr. trump, what do you think sweden should learn from how the russian influence campaign affected the presidential election in the u.s.? >> well, the russians had no impact on our votes whatsoever, but certainly there was meddling and probably there was meddling from other countries and maybe other individuals, and i think you have to be really watching

very closely. you don't want your system of votes to be compromised in any way. and we won't allow that to happen. we're doing a very, very deep study and we're coming out with some, i think, very strong suggestions on the '18 election. i think we're going to do very well in the '18 election, although historically, those in the white house have a little bit of a dip, but i think we're going to do well because the economy is so good and because we're protecting our job like our jobs are being protected finally, like, with what we're doing with the tariffs. but the big thing would be the tax cut and the regulations cuts. also the judges. i mean, we have outstanding judges. judge gorsuch and the supreme court and many, many judges going on to the bench all over the country. so i think we're going to do very well. and i think it will be a tremendous surprise to people how well it's -- the economy is so good. jobs are so good. black unemployment, hispanic unemployment, at all-time lows. i mean, we're really -- we're

really doing well. so based on that, i guess we should do pretty well and i hope so. but you have to be very vigilant and one of the things we're learning is it's always good. it's old-fashioned, but it's always good to have a paper backup system of voting. it's called paper. not highly complex computers. paper. and a lot of states are doing that. they're going to a paper backup and i think that's a great idea. but we're studying it very closely. various agencies including homeland security are studying it very carefully. >> but are you worried about russia trying to meddle in the midterm election? is. >> no, because we'll counteract whatever they do. we'll koucounteract it strongly. we'll have strong backup systems. we haven't been credit for this, we've actually been working very hard on the '18 election and '20 election coming up. thank you very much. >> mr. lofven, are you guys on

the same page when it comes to the threat from russia when it comes to meddling in elections, you think? >> well, we both agree upon that the election in a country should -- the result of the election in a country should be decided by nobody else but the voters in that country. and that is also our clear stance. that is why our intelligence agency is now also increasing their own capacity to detect and counter, whether it's hacker attacks or financing or producing or spreading propaganda. whatever it is. we are increasing our capacity to handle that. we are cooperating with other european union countries. some of our countries also cooperating with american counterparts. and this is what we'll continue to do. so any foreign power that believes that they can interfere with our election, we will find out and we will call them out very clearly, loud.

>> first time that you two meet, just the two of you, where did you find most common ground and where you differ most on political issues? >> we -- we -- first, we -- >> maybe almost everything. >> we -- first, we -- we -- i mean, we both come from outside politics into politics. i spent 30 years in industry as a welder, but also as a trade unionist, trade union leader spending 75,%, 80% of i my time cooperating with company leaders, employer organization in an effort to strengthen our industry. that's perhaps a similar background. not similar, it's different, but we come from outside politics. also friends differ from time to time. the paris agreement, we stand by

that. we think it's very important we implement and fulfill the paris agreement because of the climate issue. and that we might differ. tariffs as well. but having said that, still, we know that the relationship is good, yes, so we can take that we differ as well because the values are there and we cooperate very, very good on economic issues and making sure that we create jobs and growth and also on security issues both when it comes to combatting terrorism but also when it comes to defend ourselves. >> just slightly followup for mr. trump, do you think trade is where sweden and the u.s. differ most right now? >> i think we have very good relationships on trade. we have had and we are constantly in touch. we have on the military great cooperation. cli including design of various components of aircraft, et cetera. we were discussing that we have some of the great makers of

these components in the room with us today. now we have a very good relationship on trade and we always will have. sweden is a great country. it's small, but it's very sharp. i will tell you. they are very sharp. thank you very much, everybody. i appreciate it. thank you. thank you. hi, everyone. it's just after 4:00 in new york. the president wrapping up an appearance with the sweden prime minister. trump calling the swedish people fantastic. doubling down on threats of trade war with some particularly harsh words for the eu. and saying it was the biting sanctions that are the cause for north korea's new willingness to enter talks over their nukes but no mention of the news that has dominated television and print headlines for the last 24 hours. one of drup druonald trump's fo aides speaking out in interviews about his belief that special counsel bob mueller has come to suspect that donald trump has done something wrong.

the "washington post" out just this afternoon with brand-new reporting about bob mueller's interest in the president's longtime lawyer, michael cohn, who the "post" describes as having a portfolio that gave him a unique vantage point into trump's business, campaign and political activities. and that the scrutiny of his interactions is yet another sign of the far-reaching nature of the special counsel probe. which is examining members of the president's inner circle and aspects of trump's past business outreach to russia. the investigation was one of the only things trump didn't weigh in on in h a series of appearances and tweets today that include this one about west wing chaos. "the new fake news narrative is there is chaos in the west wing. wrong. people always come and go and i want strong dialogue before making a final decision. i still have some people that i want to change. always seeking perfection. there is no chaos, oonly great energy." the president asked just moments ago about that chaos and who he

wants to replace. here was the answer. >> you would like to see some change in the people around you. does that include your attorney general jeff sessions or either of your cabinet secretaries? >> no, i don't want to talk about that. i just said that the white house has tremendous energy. it has tremendous spirit. it is a great place to be working. many, many people want every single job. i read where oh, gee, maybe people don't want to work for trump and believe me, everybody wants to work in the white house. they all want a piece of that oval office. they want a piece of the west wing. and not only in terms of it looks great on their resume, it's just a great place to work. it's got tremendous energy. it's tough. i like conflict. i like having two people with dig different points of view. i certainly have that. then i make a decision. i like watching it. i like seeing it. i think it's the best way to go. i like different points of view, but the white house has a tremendous energy.

we have tremendous talent. there will be people, i'm not going to be specific, but there will be people that change. they always change. sometimes they want to go out and do something else, but they all want to be in the white house. so many people want to come in. i have a choice of anybody. i could take any position in the white house and i'll have a choice of the ten top people having to do with that position. everybody wants to be there. and they love this white house because we have energy like rarely before. okay? thank you. >> everybody except hope hicks, dina powell, rachel brand, i'm sure we could think of more. to help us sort through the day's developments we're joined by some of our favorite reporters and frenz. nbc's kristen welker at the white house. jonathan lamiere from the "associated press" joins us, bill kristol, founder and editor of "the weekly standard." contributing editor for the website, bustle. former republican congressman david jolly is also here. kristen welker, that was a jaw-dropping appearance from the president.

one of the worst offenders in his trade war. trade imbalance. all the best people want to work at the white house. everybody who covers the white house knows most of them are planning their exit or praying for an exit and it's no secret that many jobs remain unfilled. what's he talking about? >> reporter: well, that's right. and remember, nicolle, those comments come as we know gary cohn is infuriated by the notion of new tariffs on steel and aluminum imports so that is someone who we're watching closely. worth noting he was not here today. even though there was a name placard for him. now, that doesn't necessarily mean it has to do with anything, but it is worth noting given the backdrop to all of this. and nicolle, you're absolutely right, look, just last week one of his longest-serving advisers, hope hicks, announced her resignation. and we have seen a tremendous amount of turnover since president trump first took office. so that is the reality. you heard him also not answer directly whether he wants his attorney general to stay in

position. he dodged that part of the question. i also think, nicolle, he made some news on trade. he changed his position again today. he said trade wars aren't so bad. remember what he said yesterday, he said, i don't think we're going to have a trade war. despite the fact that top republicans, house speaker paul ryan said that's exactly what's going to happen if he imposes these new tariffs. you heard the prime minister of sweden sort of stand his ground on this issue as well saying, look, i come from a smaller country, we've got to work together on this issue. and then, of course, he joked about north korea. he did ultimately say that the reason why north korea is ready to come to the table is because of the sanctions, but off the top, he sort of quipped, it's because of me. that's something that he's actually tweeted about, nicolle, and been very serious about. >> i wrote that down, too, declared himself the variable, then said i'm only joking, his favorite twitter monmoniker, lia high school student, l-o-l.

i want to ask about a response he gave when he was asked about russia. a swedish journalist put him on the spot, like you try to do with sarah huckabee sanders and the president every single day. more blusters. more lies. all of his national security officials have testified to the opposite of what donald trump just stood in the east room and said. so the sort of reckless abandon with which he lies and contradicts his own national security officials. i wonder if congress will now want to see all the officials who testified in the last three weeks about the fact we're doing nothing to combat russian meddling, if they agree with what donald trump said right there behind you. >> reporter: well, in fact, he said we're not getting enough credit for what we are doing. what he cited, though, nicolle, i thought it was fascinating, he said we launched a review. so he -- >> he didn't tell anybody about it? >> reporter: well, that's a fair point as well. i mean, he didn't really get into the de-dales and the specifics and said, look, these election commissions should have backup. the old-fashioned way. paper. so that was a remarkable answer as well. you're absolutely right, and

then no questions on the headlines over the past 24 hours as you rightfully said at the top of the show, nicolle. no questions about the allegations made by sam nunberg, telling katy tur yesterday he believes candidate trump did something wrong, believes robert mueller is looking into his business practices. remember president trump said that would be crossing a red line for him. those are some of the questions we hoped to answer. we'll certainly be trying to get those questions to him before the end of the week, that's for sure. >> crikristen welker, i know yol ask him. we love hearing you shout your questions to him. thank you so much, my friend. >> reporter: thanks, nicolle. >> jonathan la mere, i understand he's the president and we cover him. you almost need the bottom third sort of with the flashing red light. nothing he says is true, nothing he says is true. we are not combatting russian meddling. he lied to a swedish reporter today. i don't know if that ends up at the icc or not. we are not some global leader in steel production.

you looked it up, you know, before the show. we make 5% of the steel -- i mean, you know, the '80s are calling and they want all their political fights back. >> the one statement we don't have to fact check, though, is him declaring i like conflict. that is true. >> that's true. >> we all agree with that. it's true. this is a challenge of covering this president is that you obviously, he's a president of the united states. everything he says is noteworthy and newsworthy. you have to go in there with a degree of skepticism. you have to go in there with a degree of fact checking it. you have to be prepared to call him out if he says something that is untrue. >> i have an idea, you're a white house reporter, you don't have to say anything. i'm going to put you on the spot. you know how there's always a signer at any event, someone signs for the deaf. i think there should be a truth teller in the corner of every trump event who is sort of holding a jol ascroll. saying lie. he wants everything in handwriting. hold up the gymnastics scores. lie. literally, i've never seen anything like it. i don't know if he's wearing down my last nerve with the lies

extending to russian interference, the lies -- i mean, i talk to enough people in his orbit to know nobody wants to work there. you guys know that's true. everyone is doing six jobs. kellyanne conway who was found guilty of violating the hatch act is so safe. she does six jobs. no one wants any of them. >> i think he's gotten to you a little bit, nicolle. just going to speculate on that. look, i actually thought -- who knows with trump. he's got moods and stuff. can't overinterpret them. i thought he was low key and downbeat there. he didn't really do his usual shticks. he mailed in a lot of these questions. tried as much as he can be to diplomatic with the prime minister of sweden. the lies, honestly, they were lies but in the direction of trying to be sort of pretend that it was a normal white house. normal administration. >> oh, my god, don't normalize him. he lied -- >> no, i'm saying the opposite. doing the opposite of normalizing. i think he is where -- he did not look like a happy warrior out there. here's the true point, the thing he protests about the most, he p

protests too much about is the thing he knows he's not telling the truth. what did he dwell on for 50 seconds? you played the clip. people really want to work here. people love working here. i have the choice of the ten best people for every job. he knows people are leaving, knows they can't recruit good people. he knows he has a white house in deep trouble. i think the mueller news has him very rattled. mueller is getting close. roger stone is sort of next up. he's going after cohen. the people who actually may have been involved in genuine collusion are the people who clearly are in mueller's crosshairs now. he did not look to me like a president who's feeling cocky about what's happening, but quite the oppositopposite. >> we can fact check one of those things now, i was on the phone today with the brooking institute about steen yoenior s turnover. at this point in his term nearly 40% change, almost double the highest of any other presidency at this mark in their first year. >> we're talking about chaos. there's the chaos of what's happening in the white house as it relates to the staff but the chaos of what's happening with a president who espouses one policy and a week later has another policy and the fact that all of those policies have

real-world implications. look what we hid it daca, comes out and said we're going to protect these dreamers, gets a deal, back tracks on it. there are 800,000 young people whose lives hang in the balance. it's one thing to talk about chaos behind the doors of the whou white house, what's happening there, another thing to talk about the fact there are real people hurting because of this chaos. >> to underscore that, there are real people behind all -- that's my point on russia. there are real people who work for him who testified under oath in front of congress. christopher wray told he's never been directed by the president to do dmanything. admiral rogers testified last week. i'd say claire mccaskill are even more agitated than me, who couldn't believe he hadn't been given any extra authority to be on offense when it comes to russia and cyber. there are people behind all of these vacillations and i just -- you know what, i think it's when we take him on the air in our hour and i stare at it and we have to come out and say something. i wish what we could come out and do is call bs on him. >> listen, the president's most authentic moments are when he's

lying. he misled the american people on russia, on north korea, and white house personnel. he was asked about the russia investigation and meddling in 11 '18 and '20. reflected to the republican agenda on tariffs, taxes and the judiciary. bob mueller is at his doorstep. he doesn't know what to do about it when it comes to russia. on north korea, he doesn't realize he's being used in this very moment to legitimize the nation state in north korea by giving them legitimacy of talks. that is an imperfect equation and diplomacy and for a secretary of state and an experienced administration that can handle it, this president can't. when it come to personnel, this is somebody who hired somebody off of t"the apprentice." hope hicks was an unqualified communications direct frer the fashion industry. chief of staff who made a deal with the devil. attorney general who says he dmee needs to be more -- and a son-in-law and a daughter who are completely unqualified to do their work. this president while -- >> other than that --

>> just misled the american people over the last 20 -- >> the son and daughter-in-law, did their comment to geraldo rivera, spends hours with them and tweets he had a great time with jared and ivanka and that white house that they have to work in, they're wonderful people but have to work in some white house, what is it, a nest of vipers -- >> snakes. snakes on a plane. that's a movie. wait. wait. >> if you're a white house staffer, and -- >> are you a snake or a -- >> two senior advisers who happen to be the daughter and son-in-law of the president have just basically told someone that everyone else there is a snake or a viper. that sort of cuts against the narrative of a happy -- >> i want to -- i don't want to let your comment go. i think you just laid out everything that's wrong. and everything that -- >> that we've accepted. >> not -- i mean, i think you laid out the vastness of what is wrong. and i think it's the vastness of

it and i guess if you could p put -- if you could put the sort of bookends at, you know, basically a trade war that nobody is for, except him and the other protectionists in his inner circle, you got paul ryan, who never complained about devin nunes or the russia investigation or any of the president's ethical lapses, you know, all, you know, def con 4 over trade. >> sure. >> and you got everything -- that's the highest-level problem they have in policy. you've got north korea which is exactly as you described. a skill the obama administration or the clinton administration or the bush administration would have a system for dealing with a north korea that the south says it's ready to engage in talks about their nukes. there are no systems. there's just a president on twitter. it's not a real white house. >> there's none. i think it was on your show, if not wuone of your colleagues la week, said there's never been anybody more unprepared to be president of the united states. that's what we're seeing as a matter of policy and personnel

in this administration. as a result of a lot of factors, i'd say we've never seen a republican majority on capitol hill less free pair prepared to the shadow of donald trump either. >> that's a key point. we can't do anything. you mentioned daca quite correctly. there's a congress that could legislate about this. trad trade. 232 of the trade act. congress passed. congress can revise this, congress can say no. >> why don't they do anything. >> they'd have to have the appetite to wrestle back control. >> they are the people who can do it. we should be a little more indignant, in my opinion. >> i am very -- >> if you're at def con 4, you're speaker of the house. >> only about trade. >> do something. >> he's worried about midterms. >> donald trump wrestled control of this party. he owns it. there's no greater political force in the republican party than drup druonald trump. and paul ryan and mitch mcconnell cannot beat that back. >> the president remains more popular in republican district. they have no appetite to

challenge him. the only republicans we have seen speak out against him are those that are leaving office. there's no one in there who wants to face the voters this fall who's willing to defy donald trump. >> even on trade? such a risky thing for -- >> to this point, no one's had the appetite. >> i'm not quarrelling with you. i agree. it's a disgrace, really. >> he kept saying this is why i was elected. this is what they wanted me to do. >> he did run as a protectionist. >> this is a main street argument. donald trump doesn't realize he's making a 20 year macroeconomic argument which is the fallacy -- >> donald trump doesn't know what that sentence means. >> he's suggesting we can bring domestic industries back and raise wages. he's ignoring the fact we'll raise prices along the way. this is a major generational shift in economic policy that donald trump doesn't understand. paul ryan does. that's why he's pushing back. in terms of main street, in terms of the populist agenda and people that elected him, i think he can sell this tariff agenda. >> right. >> does gary cohn quit over this? >> our reporting indicates he's close to doing so, yeah. >> kristen welker reporting he didn't sit in his chair with his

name card on it. >> yeah, we did, too. >> is he upstairs packing -- >> he's tried several times in the last couple week to throw his body in front of this. he has told people around him he's not quite given up hope, he wants to make one last push to try to get the president off of this. yet, everything that we have been indicated is people around him is saying he's deeply frustrated by this, feels like he's not being listened to and if the president goes forward with this, it is hard to imagine a scenario where he stays. >> one more question. >> can i say, this is a huge deal. i mean, what is this somewhat reassuring supportive thing people can tell themselves, there are some adults there. gary cohn on economic policy preventing a trade war. h.r. mcmaster at the national security council preventing a real war. john kelly, whatever questions of him preventing total meltdown. mcmaster looks to me from people i talked to to be very likely on the way out. is that what your sense is? cohn could be on the way out. we could have a level of chaos two months from now that makes the last few months look

relatively normal. >> i agree. >> national security adviser mcmaster, our reporting indicates -- i wouldn't say he's got one foot out the door. he and the president have clashed about a number of things. mcmaster and mattis -- >> nbc has five sources. we reported mcmaster is likely to be gone by the end of the month. >> clashed with defense secretary on this. and that there are a number of reasons to believe that he, who is still also taking a lot of arrows from the outside, there's a lot of people in the conservative -- especially the fringes of the conservative movement, who are very much opposed to him. and there has been attempts to see if, as you reported, to have mcmaster find him a landing spot somewhere else to move him out of this position. yes, to your point, exactly right, this is a white house that has been engulfed with tumult time and time again. when we come back, is the president's silence on the latest developments in the russia investigation a sign that mueller is getting close to donald trump's red line about his family businesses? i've gotta say, i love the new place.

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do you know the way i've been treated by donald trump? i mean, i hate the guy. they called me a low-level part-time consultant. i was being laughed at for years. i supported him, like, he was like a -- he was like a -- shouldn't have been, but he was like a father to me. >> dmin suffering from a nunberg hangover today? get over it. we didn't make him a story. donald trump did by hiring him, stringing him along as a lackey for years and firing him before his campaign really started to heat up leaving his aides to trash him as a low-level nobody

in the aftermath. all of this leaving nunberg humiliated enough to feel more royal to roger stone than donald trump. bob mueller made nunberg a story by wanting to talk to him and "business insider" writes, "nunberg has always been seen as a trump whisperer, he was hope hicks before hope hicks was hope hicks. comes from a long line of tricksters who sees politics as a gain. he's a protege of roger stone, a pro protege of roy cohn and protege of roger stone. the ones he wishes were by his side." msnbc contributor barbara mcquaide, former u.s. attorney, joins our merry gang. let me start with you about the revelation, i suppose, that at least in sam nunberg's mind, bob mueller already thinks donald trump may be guilty of something. >> i don't know how much stack

to put in that, i suppose he's drawing inferences based on the questions he was asked in the interview that he participated in last week. i know in that interview, from last week, he talked about how impressed he was with their preparation, their professionalism, their charts, the evidence that they asked him about. but i don't know that we can draw a lot of conclusions based on that small snippet of the investigation that he got a chance to observe. >> how about when you marry it, barbara, with the reporting out just this afternoon in the "washington post" that bob mueller is now interested in h talking to the president's lawyer, michael cohen, who crossed over into all of trump's lands, his campaign life, his business life, his personal life? would the intersection of nunberg's impressions from being interviewed by mueller's investigators and the "washington post" report this afternoon that now the president's attorney for all of his businesses including what nunberg talked about in a couple of those interviews, the trump

tower moscow chapter is of interest to bob mueller? >> i'm not surprised bob mueller is interested in trump's finances. at one point, president trump said that would be crossing a red line if he were to look into my business interests. i don't know how you do this without doing a full workup. figure out all the lengths and all the motivations a person has if it you're looking at something like this connection between russia and the trump campaign. so i don't see how you do a thorough investigation without looking at all the business interests. there's been reporting of, you know, russian loans, russian overpayments on properties. i think you need to look at that and explore did that happen and if so, what was the motivation behind that? so i suppose to the extent that his reporting is consistent with that theory, then it does make a lot of sense. >> david jolly, let me play for you something that sam nunberg said with jake tapper at this hour yesterday. >> they probably have something on trump. >> let me ask you about that trump tower meeting. president trump says he knew nothing about the meeting. do you think that that's true? >> no. >> you don't think that's true.

>> no. and it doesn't -- jake, i've watched your news reports, you know it's not true. he talked about it a week before and i don't know why he did this. all he had to say was, yeah, we met with the russians. the russians offered us something, and we thought they had something, and that was it. i don't know why he went around trying to hide. >> so this, to me, is like the trial balloon on the collusion argument that the argument so far has been trump didn't know about the trump tower meeting between don jr. and jared and the russians. i think the story will become -- he knew about it, but there was nothing illegal about meeting with russians. i think you could make the same case that that's where collusion is heading. that it's been -- we can make a mash of 747 times as bill kristol said, starting to get to me. they're imprinted on my brain.

no collusion, no collusion, no collusion. i think the message is going to change. i talked to former prosecutors and former justice department officials who agree because collusion isn't illegal, the message will change to call it whatever you want, we colluded, we agreed, we were kindred spirits. it's not illegal. find a crime. do you think that's what nunberg might have been channeling? >> perhaps. whether there's any validity to what nunberg said or not, this president is behaving like a guilty man. and the reason why is this. look at what happened last week with the reporting around where the investigation's gone with jared kushner. and financial leverage and financial exposure to other nation states or significant businesspeople and other nation states. that is the exact image of what bob mueller's investigating with donald trump. there is no scenario in this investigation where bob mueller is not investigating donald trump's personal and business dealings overseas. >> right. >> why is there such silence when it comes to matters like russia which we just saw in the presser today? it is because of that exposure.

>> right. >> nunberg knows, he may know something. the bottom line is the silence on russia will likely go back to the tax returns and business dealings of donald trump. bob mueller is on his doorstep today, no question about it. >> and one thing that came up over and over again is the relationship with roger stone. roger stone's going to be a guest on chuck todd's show at 5:00. so if you're already seated, pop some popcorn. don't go anywhere. going to be sitting in that seat until 6:00. let me show a little bit of nunberg on his affection for roger stone. >> i don't think he's making up a case, but i think this is too -- i think that this request is too wide. it's not fair. >> let me -- >> roger stone is like a surrogate father -- he's like my father. >> you feel loyal to him. >> and i'm not going to go in there for them to set up a case against roger. roger did not do anything. >> so i think this matters for a lot of reasons. one, i think we make a mistake in thinking that trump isn't more like sam nunberg and roger

stone than he is like h.r. mcmaster, gary cohn. those are not his guys. this is his crowd. these gangsters from new york. this is how trump rolled before he, i think in his view, stumbled into the presidency. >> roger stone was his closest political adviser for 25 years when he was thinking of running for president and generally trying to become a major public personality. turns out i learned today from a piece in "the atlantic" sam nunberg read a piece in the "weekly standard t," did a big profile of roger stone. it made clear stone is an amazing, colorful character, a trickster, fraudster and other things. nunberg is in law school, reads this piece, decides that's who i want to work for. a real protege of roger stone. people dismiss stone. he's flamboyant, color fful, los the media, says outrageous things. stone is the kind of character that would have done things to cross lines, others we don't like that much, would be a

little bit balking at. nunberg, he knows if he has to testify to certain things he might cause trouble for stone who he generally is loyal to and when they call stone up, you're one step from trump. >> i talkeded ed tto a number prosecutors who said by invoking stone, talking also about the meeting at trump tower and don jr. it opens up a new line potentially of questions for mueller and his team that may or may not have been there before. in some ways he's now further exposed himself. >> well, "fire and fury" did the same thing and this interview last night exposed sam nunberg to more questions from adam schiff who now wants him to testify. and i use the term, gangsters. these are political gangster tactics. on campaigns, they're called black ops or they're tricksters. that description -- >> who was stone's partner? you and i go back a little in washington. who was stone's partner for many years in washington? is. >> manafort.

>> stoneman/manafort. that part, mueller seems like he's getting close on that. i think that -- that is the heart of the matter. i mean, you know, one of the hearts of the matter, at least. i wonder if trump is not very worried about that. that's where i remain very worried about the firing of sessions and trying to get rid of mueller and stuff. i don't think that's something that's months away necessarily. >> what did you think of the answer in the press conference we watched together about sessions? he seems to be channeling something is imminent. are you worried that's what it is 12 is? >> yeah. >> then what? >> i don't know. republicans on the hill can do certain things ahead of time to prevent it or at least to make clear a huge price would be paid or at least how about a sense of congress that he should let the independent investigation go forward uninterfered with. is that a hard thing to pass on a bipartisan basis? i guess it is, but it would be kind of useful to have something like that now. >> barbara, going to talk to a former justice department official today who is -- watches trump with a wonder that many of us watch trump with but is floored, galled, gobsmacked by

the lack of appetite in congress to do anything to protect the institutions and rule of law. >> yeah. you know, it remains to be seen, we haven't had that moment yet that i think we would consider a constitutional crisis. i'm still hopeful that if that moment comes, the congress will rise to the occasion. and prevent another saturday night massacre. but i guess we'll have to see. i think at this point, politically, if trump were to try to fire jeff sessions or robert mueller, you would hope there would be a great outcry that this is just an effort to circumvent the investigation and there would be pushback from congress. so far it hasn't happened, so i guess we'll have to wait and see. >> and just to finish up this conversation, is that one of the things that gives trump solace? that there's no one in congress that's going to do anything to anger him because they're so afraid of his twitter feed? >> yeah. a. although i will say one of the few times the republicans in congress have sort of stood up to him when he tried to fire jeff sessions the last time over

the summer. >> right. >> sessions remains a popular figure. republicans on the hill stepped up and said we will not hold hearings for a replacement, this is a line, mr. president, you should not cross. whether that's fear of a constitutional crisis, firing sessions could lead to rosenstein, bob mueller or simply out of loyalty to jeff sessions who they've known? the senate for decades and delivering on conservative promises in the doj? that we're not sure. sessions is a spot where the republicans in congress have pushed back a little bit against the president. >> the trump times make for strange alliances. even had very progressive democrats -- >> yes, also jeff sessions. >> spitting coffee out when i heard elizabeth warren on our air defending jeff sessions. barbara, thank you for elevating us for a while. when we come back, a sentence that hasn't been said in a long, long time. north korea may be ready and willing to hold talks with the u.s. which prompts an interesting question, is donald trump, the great deal maker, the right man for that job?

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you believe that north korea's recent willingness to talk is sincere or is it an effort to buy time for their nuclear program and to what do you owe this recent openness to talk? >> me. no. i think that -- nobody got that. >> we got it. this afternoon, two things are clear. donald trump is president, and for the first time in a long time, it appears north korea is ready to have a meaningful conversation with the outside world. while the trump administration would have you believe those two are cause and effect, in reality, it's debatable how much they actually have to do with one another. if at all. but regardless of how we got here, this much is clear, donald j. trump will be the face of the u.s. in the midst of some of the most important negotiations in decad decades. the panel is back. does that scare you? >> kbraeryeah, look, trump's fo policy is like this ongoing reel of chevy chase in "spies like

us." >> what? >> he's completely unqualified for the dynamics of this type of negotiation. and rex tillerson for as hard as he may try, the reality is this president continues to clip his wings. he's not somebody who is seasoned in diplomacy. we have a state department that has been gutted, really, with senior personnel and this is where it matters. you know, we talk about these controversies. we laugh about these controversies. we chuckle at the moment today in the white house. but the implications are real when it comes to marshnational security and whether or not this president is capable of protecting our national security or whether or not he's already compromised it. i'm not sure the american people today have confidence in a president facing a national security crisis. >> which do you think it is? >> i don't think he's able to face a national security crisis. nor do i think he empowers people around him with the ability to do so. >> and he has shown, his willingness, to undercut his own secretary of state on this very specific issue on twitter, while he's engaged in exactly what

david described. >> i was also listening to him during the conference that we took earlier in the show talking about tariffs and talking about it as though it was personal, as though it was a personal offense that europe had traded with us the way that they had. i think that is part of what makes people so nervous, that we're not dealing just at a policy level, that this somehow becomes a personal attack and so even though he's coming out today saying, you know, he is optimistic and, perhaps, we can have these, you know, these talks, there's always the concern that at any moment, it could become personal and it could shift. >> the -- at saturday's gridiron dinner in washington, the president spoke about possible negotiations with north crkorea and joked there are perils to these kinds of talks but kim jong-un is the one who has to deal with the mad man. although that was a good line at the time, it underscores concerns people have, not in this country but around the world, how is this administration going to handle exceedingly delicate negotiations, the biggest foreign policy crisis and test this president has faced when, as you say, he has made so much

of this personal. you know, yes, in recent months he has dialed down the rhetoric. we haven't heard dpfire and fur in a while, haven't heard about little rocket man in a while or heard about the size of the button on his desk in a is sti territory for this president. >> those are very low bars. let me play a little sound and ask you about it. >> hopefully we'll go in the very, very peaceful beautiful path we're prepared to go, whichever path is necessary. i think we're having very good dialogue and you're going to certainly find out pretty soon what's happening. but we have -- we have made progress, there's no question about it. >> he also said there we'll go hard either way. i mean one way is toward peace, the other is toward nuclear annihilation of the korean peninsula. he's like whatever will be will be. >> it's important not to be taken away way previous administrations have been and north korea fakes negotiations. in this policy h.r. mcmaster has driven north korea policy i

think pretty well. he's a very able, senior director and this is a place where trump has let them actually have a reasonably professional policy towards north korea. the previous policies had failed. it wasn't ridiculous to rethink it. do i have great confidence in a real crunch donald trump will make the right decision? no. do i worry if mcmaster goes in the middle of these delicate talks, exactly what -- there's only so much jim mattis can do from the pentagon. i'm nervous about the world, i agree with that. xi has declared himself dictator for life. putin shows the video of the russian missile hitting florida. delicate situation. middle east, syria, total nightmare. these are real world consequences, as you said. are people -- i don't know. i hope for the best for the country, but i worry about it. >> so, nicole, i'm obviously not a white house reporter but dialed in some to the national security network, if you will. to bill's point, there's something interesting we might see happen. if mcmaster goes, john kelly is

going to have a hand in shaping who comes next. there actually could be some people coming back into the white house who really do understand this, because john kelly will recognize this is the moment where we need maturity. >> who? >> so perhaps that's a silver lining. >> we reported steve eagan is one of the candidates. >> i think there's a lot of deputies people wouldn't know by name but come out of the special operations command, the central command. there are people who are very skilled in this environment that if john kelly stays, john kelly could have a real hand in bringing them in. >> let me ask you something that i heard from one of the president's allies. he said that the chaos doesn't bother him. something like nunberg doesn't bother him as much as people think it would. they called him the sun king and that anything that eclipses him from being the only person in the glow of the media attention is what enrages him. do you see the events of this week as manifesting that theory? >> it's possible. yes, there's no question the theory is correct, i think. >> have you heard that before, call him the sun king?

>> people around him know that he has a need to turn on the television and see his face, the image coming back, that people know -- of course the positive spin is he'll say, look, this is it's reinforcement and how he learns. >> it's psycho! they call him the sun king. i'm like this can't be real, this is the thing? >> it predates his time in politics. this dates back when he was a real estate developer here in new york where he would need to see his name in the tabloids getting attention, good or bad. >> what's the expression, not all news is good news. >> there's no such thing as bad pr. >> page six of "the new york post," great. >> his favorite newspaper, "the new york post," page 6. we can chart a line from that need for attention to what we see now and his need to dominate the headlines. he does not frustrated when he's not the dominant story line. >> oh, god. you guys have all made me nervous. when we come back, more reporting about trump's personal

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"the wall street journal" is reporting that trump's attorney, michael cohen, made the $130,000 payment for porn star stormy daniels out of his own pocket because he couldn't get in touch with his boss during the final hectic days of the campaign. after mr. trump's victory, mr. cohen complained to friends that he had yet to be reimbursed for the payment. why is this so significant?

it marks the first time that trump himself has been implicated in the payment. the panel is back. this seems like an underreported story. i think people get prudish about the sex, but this isn't about a story about a porn star or any sex that he may or may not have had with her, this is a story about how easily donald trump can be black mailed. >> sure. forget about the morality or immorality, this is somebody that lawyers up and pays somebody off. the three big things are infidelity, debt and substance abuse. with president trump we could be looking at either one of the first two. >> how ironic is the entire month we talked about rob porter's security clearance when there's a story in "the wall street journal" not exactly a manifesto for the resistance about donald trump's lawyer paying off stormy daniels. >> i still have questions about who is your attorney talking to and why your attorney is talking to anyone about a payment. >> the bank flagged the payment to the treasury department which is run by the president's friend, steve mnuchin, so i

don't think the bank and treasury department are in on any high jinks. >> but why is the president's attorney mouthing off about not being paid back. >> you wouldn't just pay $130,000 if one of your friends got in trouble? >> with a porn star? let me think about it. no. >> i'm not even going there. >> come on. >> go to jonathan. jonathan has some important thoughts about -- jonathan's lawyer would do it. >> you guys have an impossible job so i'm not asking you why you don't press on this topic, but why doesn't the white house feel any pressure to be more forthcoming on the topic? >> that's a great question because we do push them ojt topic. they push off and refer to outside attorneys. >> cohen will handle it. >> yeah. and certainly he's not first person waiting to get paid from donald trump, who has a long history of -- >> atlantic city. >> -- stiffing contractors and so on. >> we're all out of time but my friend, chuck todd, will talk to

roger stone in the next hour. so seriously, pop popcorn, order dinner, sit down, don't go anywhere. that does it for our hour, i'm nicolle wallace. "mtp daily" starts right now. for once i'm on time. hi, chuck. >> nicely done, hello, nicole. you're right across the room. we'll do a baton one day. if it's tuesday, it's roger and me. >> tonight, long-time trump advisor roger stone joins us to talk about the mueller investigation and sam nunberg's defiant and dizzying media blitz. >> why do i have to give them my personal communications? steve bannon, roger stone? roger is my mentor. >> plus, trade war. what is it good for? >> trade wars aren't so bad. >> and primary color check for the lone star state. it's the tale of voter turnout in either red, blue or purple texas. >> across texas, it's doubled. these