been quite the hour. we had the breaking news that buzzfeed is going directly to the white house asking for michael cohen and stormy daniels documents and ty cobb telling me tonight they'll do the right thing. that is our show. i'll be back 6:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow. "hardball" with chris matthews starts now. mueller at the white house gates. let's play "hardball"". good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. tonight the investigation led by robert mueller has approached the white house gates. "the new york times" reports that robert mueller has subpoenaed the trump organization to turn over documents including some related to russia. according to the report, it is the first known instance of the special counsel demanding documents directly related to trump's businesses, bringing the investigation closer to the president. while the scope of mueller's

order is unclear, the subpoena could relate to two areas of the probe that might ultimately lead to trump's impeachment. potential financial improprieties related to russia and possible collusion during the campaign. mueller subpoenaed his trump's business records and comes after the president warned the special counsel last summer any investigation of his personal finances would cross a red line. let's listen. >> mueller was looking at your finances, or your family's finances unrelated to russia, is that a red line? >> i would say yes. i would say yes. >> if he was outside that lane, would that mean he would have to go? >> no, i think that's a violation. >> today's development comes after multiple outlets reported the special counsel is digging into the influence of foreign money on trump's political activities. as well as his business dealings before he launched his campaign. just last week, a witness questioned by mueller's

prosecutors former campaign adviser is sam nunberg said he believes the special counsel already has evidence of possible illegalities which he thinks are related to the trump organization. >> they probably have something on trump, trump did something pretty bad i would assume. >> what do they have? >> i have no idea but they have something. >> do you think they were more interested in trump related to the hacking which occurred and stolen mails or in relation to all the social social media? >> i think something with his business. >> you feel they were related to the trump organization rather than the trump campaign? >> that's what i felt yeah. >> the trump organization released a statement saying since july of 2017, we have advised the public that the trump organization is fully cooperative with all investigations including the special counsel and is responding to their requests, adding this is old news. joining me right now is one of the authors of that "new york times" report, michael schmidt, chuck rosenburg, former u.s.

attorney and senior fbi official, betsy woodruff, an msnbc contributor who covers account russia probe for the daily beast, and mimi rocha, a former federal prosecutor. thanks to you. what are they looking for? >> they're looking for things related to russia, looking at obviously these are business documents. this is the business. and if you obviously know, the trump organization was not where the campaign was run out of it. there's nothing it could have done in regards to obstruction so what is it they're so interested in? obviously, we don't have a copy of it. we know there were a lot of search terms in the subpoena. so now the folks at trump org having to go through and look through the e-mails and look through documents and see what's responsive. at the end of the day, the president's lawyers said this investigation was going to be over at the end of last year. here we are in march, trump organization is dealing with the

subpoena. this is obviously going to go on for at least several more months if not longer. >> chuck, this has always seemed to me or not always, for weeks, the mueller probe struck me like the iceberg in the titanic. so much below the water level you don't see when you hit it. every once in awhile they showed their breadth and depth of what they're up to. now they're going for the president's business records through his organization. it probably doesn't deal with obstruction but may deal with collusion, money laundering or campaign gifts from abroad funneled through the organization. >> and not unusual. michael is exactly right. subpoenas are extraordinarily ordinary, chris. prosecutors issue them all the time. and when they do, they tend to be very broad. meaning is i don't want to come back and give you subpoena after subpoena after subpoena. i want to ask one time for everything i want and need over a long range of dates with a lot of search terms and then you're compelled to give it to me. that's the way it works.

>> what will be the response? can the lawyers fight this or face content? >> they could move to quash it, that's the words we use in court when the other side doesn't like a subpoena. they're routine and ordinary and it would be unusual, highly unusual for a judge to grant a motion to quash a business records subpoena. this is typical business. >> betsy, this is what trump doesn't want. >> that's right. >> he doesn't want what he calls a fishing expedition because he knows he's been in business a long time and there's probably a happy hunting ground of places where prosecutors coz go and look for trouble. >> that would be the case for just about anyone who was a real estate developner new york city in the 1990s. it was a dirty messy business for all the folks working in that space, trump obviously would not be an exception to that rule. the day of mueller going through anyone's finances would make anyone nervous. that said the big question about this development we're seeing tonight is how the president responds to it. he indicated previously in the interview with you and your colleague that he thought this would be crossing a red line.

at the same time though we know the president is very fond of making threats and not following through on them. the iran deal is still in place. the women who accused the president of sexual impropriety most haven't been sued by the president for libel or defamation. >> you don't think he'll fire mueller. >> i don't think so. them saying it's old news is probably a good sign for mueller. >> mueller is asking witnesses about the president's attempt to build a trump tower in moscow, a deal that fell through before the iowa caucuses. despite the fact trump was pursuing that deal during his campaign for president, trump repeatedly said he stayed away from russia and had no relationship what soever. here he is. >> i have nothing to do with russia, folks, okay? i don't have any deals in russia. >> i have no relationship to russia what soever. >> i have nothing to do with russia, no investments in russia. none whatsoever. >> i have no dealings with russia. i have no deals in russia.

i have no deals that could happen in russia because we've stayed away. >> well, those assertions by the presidents there were later revealed to be not true. in fact, four months into his campaign, trump even signed a letter of intent between the trump organization and a russian developer for that project. let me go to mimi row ca on this. tell me about the way the laws could have been broken here. it seems to me the trump family, and i can sign them all to this particular description don't know how to separate business from politics. it's always two-fisted, they're going in for both and don't separate the money potential from the public affairs you might call it. your thoughts. >> so in terms of what the criminal violation could possibly be, i think there's two really different avenues. one is as you pointed out, president trump for a good period of time was continuing to say that he had no dealings in russia. we know that not to be true now. and so did eli on his financial

disclosure forms? did he fail to disclose any kind of dealings that he did have? that would be one kind of possible criminal exposure albeit more minor than the other possible one which is that mueller may now be drawing a line between what we've been calling collusion, i like to insist that we use the word conspiracy because that's the actual criminal statute he's looking at. is he drawing a line between possible conspiracy when it comes to the election and trump's business dealings. it seems to me if this is where he is going, then he is at least exploring the possibility that those two things are now coming together. not in a way that trump wants them to come together. >> he was pursuing his development in moscow, that trump tower over there in 2015. trump bragged in radio interview he had met with russia oligarchs

during his previous trip to moscow for the miss universe pageant. >> i really loved my weekend in moscow. i was with the top level people. both oligarchs and generals and top of the government people. i can't go further than that, but i will tell you that i met the top people. and the relationship was extraordinary. >> however, trump's now indicted former campaign chairman paul manafort later denied trump had no financial relationships with russian oligarchs in an interview in 2016. >> to be clear, plgs trump has no financial relationships with nel russian oligarchs? >> that's what he said. i -- that's what i said -- that's obviously what our position is. >> let me start with mike on this. it seems to me there's a point in which the -- all the people around trump realize don't admit to anything russian whether it was the logan act violation, starting with flynn months ago, maybe a year ago. i got the sense they were all

somehow told in their souls don't say you did anything with russia. do you notice that pattern? explain. >> this is the central question of the trump story. does trump and the folks around him not tell the truth because there's something to hide or is it because that's just simply who they are. and we may never know that. >> they think they have something to hide. >> or they think they have something to hide. if you can answer that, you can provide a lot of clarity to this. what we see is the problem that people under investigation of special counsel. the special counsel has to turn over every rock and look at everything. they don't want to close up shop and say and say oh, that's what we missed. that's the problem, every part of donald trump's life could be looked at here and i can understand why he's not comfortable with that. >> nobody would. i've never seen a special counsel say i'm tired of this, i'm not going to do it anymore. they will do it till they can prove the guy is innocent.

>> till you can make a case or you realize you can't. they have an obligation to look and look hard. by the way, this is what prosecutors do. this is what agents do every day in every courthouse around the country. there's nothing unusual here. it's not like the cubs winning the world series. this is what happens. >> chuck, just for a second, i know in your career you know what it's like to imagine what the target's thinking tonight because you're going after people. that's what you do in the fbi and prosecution. when you think about trump tonight, what's he worried about? what's your speculation about what he's worried? is he worried about some old business fiddle he did two or three years ago in russia, worried about some family member that wasn't smart enough to keep business away from politics? what's he worried about? i'm not sure is he personally may have done anything wrong. i don't know yet. >> none of us know that yet, chris. he may be worried about all those things. i think it's unfair for me to speculate about what he's worried about, but i can tell you this. if he did nothing wrong, mueller

is the guy he would want to look into his stuff. and if he did something wrong, anything wrong, mueller is the last guy he would want. >> there's a middle grade here. how about michael flynn thinking look what that woman did in new jersey did, what the govern wanted her to do. the govern walked. she went to the pen. there's a middle ground there. what do you think michael flynn did, what do you think manafort's done, some of these whacky out to the edge people did without mentioning their names? these kato kaelin characters, nunberg and carter page and roger? all these people floating around. how does trump know what they did? >> we know some of what they did. part of the iceberg, right, is above the surface of the water. i looked that up. it's about 10% above and 90% below. that's a typical iceberg. that's probably the ratio we have. >> what below is what took the titanic down. >> it may be more interesting

that's what's bob. we have allegations what manafort did and flynn and papadopoulos have admitted to what they've done. you're right, there are other characters out there. >> betsy, this is a reporter's question. where is this heading right now based upon michael schmidt's amazing once again done it, he's showing a subpoena being delivered to the corporation which trump heads about business dealings including business dealings with russia. he's at the gates with this. >> right, and that's the reason that the president's attorneys are so concerned about him sitting down for an interview with mueller and his team from watching that footage that you showed of the president saying over and over again, he had never had any sort of business interactions with russians, it's clear trump is fluid and comfortable saying things that are not true over abover. >> what's miss universe if it wasn't a business transaction? >> what was this multipage document about potentially having a trump tower in moscow.

>> what about papadopoulos getting sent on an errand over there. >> exactly. the fact that trump and the people close to him said there was nothing there when there was is the reason the president's lawyers are so worried about him sitting down with mueller under oath in a situation where if he says something that's not true, he breaks the law. >> did you know roger stone knew what was copping from the hacking? >> i don't know this. mueller may know. that's a central question. what did the president know. this has come in interviews with folks. what did the president know about the hacking. why is it that he went out publicly and said to the russians, if you can, please go hack hillary clinton's e-mail. >> i think he's like the opposite of a prosecutor. he has to have a big thing on the wall like the opposite of the fbi with all the charts of air rowers coming at him, all these crazy people he's dealt with in the last year or two, these people that are just trouble with their own criminal exposures as you say. thank you, michael. a big piece in the new york sometimes which we used as our lead tonight.

chuck, always great. betsy always great and mimi thank you so much for your expertise. is today's news going to make trump even more jumpy? that's the word for it. will he make more staff changes as a way to create a bouquet of firings that would allow him to include in that bow quai kay the firing of jeff sessions? he wants to fire so many so fast, when he fires jeff sessions it will look sort of kosher. trump needs to replace the attorney general if he wants to fire robert mueller and he wants to get rid of mueller. today's subpoena may cross trump's own red line, remember that one? don't touch my business. plus the stormy daniels scandal is getting closer to trump. now a second attorney from the trump organization is involved in an attempt to silence to, shut up the adult film actor. later caught on tape, trump boasted to big money donors he made up information, this is like last night about trade in a meeting with canada's prime minister. he admitted making up stuff when

he was talking to trudeau. despite not knowing whether it was true or not. that's something now known about our current president wordwide. he makes up stuff and braggs about it. why would any other world leader still take him seriously? let me finish tonight with trump watch. this is "hardball" where the action is. because you get a break on breakfast get an extra day by the pool get to spend more time together get more moments to remember there are some things you can only get when you book with us. get more from your spring break getaway with exclusive hilton offers. book yours, only at hilton.com it's 6 am. 40 million americans are waking up to a gillette shave. and at our factory in boston, more than a thousand workers are starting their day building on over a hundred years of heritage, craftsmanship and innovation.

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i've gotten to know a lot of people over the last year. i've been in washington for a little bit more than a year where some people have been here 30, 40 years. i've gotten to know great people. there will always be change but it was a very false story. a very exaggerated -- a very exaggerated and false story. >> welcome back to "hardball." donald trump defended his administration this morning against reports of a looming staff shake-up. it's not clear exactly which story he was refuting since there have been so many over the last 24 hours. even fox news reported a number of key cabinet members and staffers could soon be gone. it's a topic trump has teased himself about several times over the past week. let's watch him. >> i've gotten to know a lot of people very well over the last year. and i'm really at a point where we're getting very close to

having the cabinet and other things that i want. >> you would like to see some change in the people around you. does that include your attorney general jeff sessions or either of your cabinet secretaries? >> i don't really talk about that. i just said that the white house has tremendous energy. it has tremendous spirit. it is a great place to be working. many, many people want every single job. yeah, there will be people, i'm not going to be specific but there will be people that change. they always change. sometimes they want to go out and do something else. but they alwan to be in the white house. so many people want to come in. >> no cabinet member has been on the receiving end of his wrath more than attorney general jeff sessions. yesterday "vanity fair"'s gabe sherman reported according to two republicans in regular contact with the white house there have been talk that trump could replace sessions with epa administrator scott pruitt told not be recused from overseeing the russia probe. the associated prs also reported trump has privately mused about

firing sessions. nbc has not confirmed either of those reports. for more on the chaos, i'm joined by charlie sykes from the weekly standard and eddie glad you, chairman of the center for african-american studies at princeton. let me start with charlie on this. the buzz about this thing. it seems in common sense terms, if you can apply them to the president, he's got mueller coming right at the white house gates now subpoenaing him for all his business records. i mean, he must be thinking hey, good, this guy means it. he's not going away for months if not years. he's coming to get me any way he can. it seems like we're going to get more firings just to keep things moving. your thoughts? >> yeah, i mean, all of his white house chaos is because that's the way trump wants it. he likes this. i think he's trying to create a safe space for himself where he won't have aides and cabinet members who will tell him, you can't do that or mr. president, you are wrong.

he wants to surround himself with people who will confirm his bias, maybe an attorney general who protect him and defend him. you know, on one level, it has been a chaotic white house. on the other, at least up till now, we've had grown-ups in the room who have retrained him, stopped him from doing things that were impulsive. we don't even know all the things he has not done as crazy as it's been over the last year. i think he's moving to liberate himself from that, let trump be trump. distraction is also there. and maybe part of the agenda. but my sense is that donald trump kind of wants to be the kind of white house that he wants it to be. >> i don't know what to say. eddie, i have to tell you, maybe this is too below a princeton professor. he looks like he's had too much sun. he doesn't have somebody to say get out of the sun when he goes on the weekends in florida. seriously, it seems like he may

want to the tighten some of the hatchs. he can't defend himself quickly against mueller. it seems like he wants to tighten up other aspects of his life like who is working for him. >> i think that's true. i think donald trump is feeling the pressure. he's panicking because mueller is moving closer and closer to him. and to his family. the people he loves. and i think charlie's absolutely right. we -- when trump was inaugurated and he entered the white house, people were saying there would be adults in the room. they talked about tillerson. they talked about reince priebus. they talked about mcmaster, about general mattis. they talked about gary cohn. a large number of those folks are gone. that's all we have left is general mattis. he's been interestingly silent. what we're going to get in response to this i think is a gaggle of folks who have who are ideological zealots who will

confirm what trump wants and i think there are going to be folks who lack competence and have no ethical constraints. we're going to see cascading chaos and deepening incompetence. that don't bode well for the run the country at all. >> president trump's incoming director of national economic council is cnbc contributor larry kudlow. trump offered him the job over the phone tuesday night. according to kudlow, the president was apparent watching television at the time and saw a picture of kudlow highway the two were speaking on the phone. here's what he said trump told him then. let's watch. >> it was -- i didn't know that. i wasn't watching tv this morning. president called. and he said, it's out. because i don't think he was intending to put it out till tomorrow or friday. and i said oh. and he said you're on the air. and he said i'm looking at a picture of you. he said very handsome. so trumpian. >> it's not the first time a

person's appearance has been a factor in white house staffing matters. according to "the washington post," during the transition several of trump's associates said they thought john bolton's brush-like moustache was one of the handicapped him in the sweepstakes for secretary of state. several associates say he was drawn to mitt romney and later to tillerson by their conspiracy central casting quality." here's what trump said himself about people's looks. >> we are going to appoint mad dog mattis as our secretary of defense. they say he's the closest thing to general george patton that we have, and it's about time. >> indiana's unemployment rate, and this is the primary reason i wanted mike, other than he looks very good. >> i watch this lightweight rubio, total lightweight, and little mouth on him, bing, bing,

bing, he has really large ears. the biggest i've ever seen. when you looked at that horrible woman last night, you said i don't think so just don't think she has a presidential look. you need a presidential look. you have to get the job done. >> you know, charlie, this is a hot potato to throw to any other guy. what do you make of this? you're going to get the same question, eddie. he sounds like he's like burt parks and the miss america contest 24/. his job is to look at people and decide. your thoughts, charlie. you've got the hot potato on this one. >> he used to run the miss universe contest. as i listen, i'm thinking has this guy ever looked in a mir ter honestly? really, has donald trump -- does donald trump look in a mirror and he goes that's a good look. my hair's looking fantastic. the orange tan is it beautiful. i look like a president of the united states. look, we all know people in our live who's judge people on the basis of looks. they are shallow people.

and donald trump is a shallow person. and eddie is right. this is why he likes to surround himself with sick cofan tick toldie who's he thinks look the part. >> did you ever see "zoolander," the movie be? ben stiller's movie? eddie, i think you've seen it, too. he's a big model and ben stiller plays him. he has different looks like blue steel. different looks. trump does those looks once in awhile. eddie your thoughts about looks -- let's talk about something more serious. i'm scared to death of john bolton being national security adviser. to me, he's mr. war, daddy war bucks. he doesn't want us to invade in the middle east and regime change and what else. your thoughts? scary. >> i agree absolutely. i'm afraid of a lot of the folks. could you imagine scott pruitt over doj? i think in terms of, in, terms of this politics of celebrity, chris, we can talk about trump

paying attention to looks. but what we're thinking, we have elected a guy who ran "the apprentice." and so what it is the politics of celebrity. we have this fancy term in the academy called similacre, the representation of the thing is more important than the thing. we're just dealing with image. we're dealing with representation. we're not dealing with the substance of things. so trump actually represents i think that fact of the culture. we are awash in the surface of things, kind of bound by the superficial. so the fact that he's picking cabinet members, identifying allies by their looks kind of reflects where we are as a country and as a society. >> i guess he wants a trophy cabinet. what academy are you talking about? i heard the reference there. >> i was talking about you know, in the academy, those of us who work in. >> i'm sorry, i missed. i thought it was an upper case

"a." thank you charlie and eddie. >> up next the stormy daniels controversy appears to be getting closer to the president. new reporting shows another trump organization lawyer was involved in paying off the adult film actor. this is "hardball" where the action is. today, the new new york is ready for take-off. we're invested in creating the world's first state-of-the-art drone testing facility in central new york and the mohawk valley, which marks the start of our nation's first 50-mile unmanned flight corridor. and allows us to attract the world's top drone talent. all across new york state, we're building the new new york. to grow your business with us in new york state, visit esd.ny.gov. to grow your business with us in new york state, so allstate is giving us money back on our bill. well, that seems fair. we didn't use it. wish we got money back on gym memberships. get money back hilarious. with claim-free rewards. switching to allstate is worth it.

welcome back to "hardball." there's another big story linking the trump organizationing to one of the scandals plaguing the president.

newly released court documents show that a top lawyer for the trump organization -- daniels. the documents were signed just last month and are related to $130,000 hush money payment, an agreement that made -- was made to dans by trump's personal attorney michael cohen shortly before the 2016 election. in a statement, the trump organization said told nbc news in fact that it is not representing anyone and than martin had been acting in her own individual capacity until another lawyer received permission to take part in the case. it added the company has had no involvement in the matter. cohn maintained the use of his own personal funds. that's what he spent his own money to make the payment to daniels whose real name is stephanie clifford. in february he told nbc news "neither the trump organization nor the trump campaign was a party to the transaction with

miss clifford and neither reimbursed me for the payment either directly or indirectly. the white house denied allegations of a relationship between the president and stormy daniels. i'm joined by katie phang. there seems to be a lot of volunteer action. lawyers from all over willing to open up their checkbooks and write big checks or find the money to get to the person in this case stormy daniels. and willing to sign contracts, nondisclosure contracts and now we have the latest word of somebody else jumping 2in on th trump team apparently without any orders from trump himself. how do we buy it. >> don't look at me. i may be a lawyer but i'm not stroking you a check. you have a slew of crazy renegade lawyers running around from the trump organization and or representing donald trump doing what you just said, signing documents, entering into binding perhaps binding

settlement agreements. what's crazy about jill martin is the fact that the trump organization has taken the position she was doing something on her own signifies that they don't really know what their lawyers are doing. here's the thing, if she's using trump organization e-mail addresses like michael cohen has done and if we find out she's using her trump organization address and doing all of these things on behalf of essential consultants llc, whatever happened to michael cohen? you have a lot of allegedly unauthorized action going on. we all know that's not true. no one is doing anything that works for the trump organization that the trump organization does not know about. >> that's the question i've asked when i hear about a contract that has a form like contracts have where it had a name for dennis denison. that's supposed to be trump. i don't know what it means to sign somebody else's name, the guy in "mad men," his phony name living his whole life. if you sign somebody else's name

to something, why would he be put on the contract if he was trying to keep himself secret? who gave the authorization to michael cohen who put this dennis dennis son's name on the document without donald trump's permission to use his alias? >> yeah, so here's the thing. you are allowed to use an alias. there's a side agreement attached to the settlement agreement that cleary phis who is stormy daniels. her real name. who is david dennison, et cetera. here's the thing. if you want to know the answer to that question, chris who, gave michael cohen authorization, look at the e-mail cornered between whom, michael cohen and donald trump. so that's why the buzzfeed evidence preservation letter that was just served on stormy daniels i guess yesterday basically in the litigation that michael cohen brought against buzzfeed alleging defamation of his character because of the steele dossier is important. what that means is stormy daniels has to preserve any

photos, texts, correspondence, any of payments and if she's compelled to testify at deposition, guess what, you're going to end up having a huge battle in court because no one from trump or the trump organization wants her to testify in terms of a valid subpoena to testify at a deposition. >> who do you think is going to win that fight in court? >> buzzfeed is going to win. it might be limited scope in terms of deposition and in terms of documents turned over but they'll win that legal bat. >> meanwhile, daniels sat down with "60 minutes" last week. the network says it plans to air the interview and it's in the works subject to legal scrutiny. raising the prospect trump's fixer michael cohen would seek an injunction stopping cbs from airing the segment. here's something i don't understand. why would she giveaway her story, tick-tock as we say in journalism details, all the gory details if it happened, why would she give it away on a news

show and not sell it to some hard copy or make it into a mini series where there would be real money or a big magazine? why would she give it to a legitimate news show? >> she claims there's an ability to get the truth out to the public. that's the reason she sued for declaratory action in california court to determine whether or not the hush agreement stands. that's the reason she's doing it via "60 minutes." there's no way "60 minutes" is going to be barred by trump from going forward with that special. >> do you think they'll tell the story. >> it will be aired. absolutely. >> katie phang, you know this story. thanks for joining us again on the legal and the other aspects of this, the -- i must say the dramatic aspects. up next president trump is caught on tape bragging about making up facts during his talks with canadian prime minister trudeau, in the same freewheeling the speech, he says democrat conor lamb won because he's just like trump, just like

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welcome back to "hardball." from any other president, this would be a stunning admission caught ob tape in a fund-raising speech given to republican donors just yesterday. president trump admitted he made up stuff when talking to canadian prime minister justin trudeau. he bragged he had no idea what he was talking about when he said the united states runs a trade deficit with canada. nbc news obtained audio of those remarks. >> trudeau came to see me. he's a good guy, justin. he said no, no, we have no trade deficit with you. we have none. donald, please. nice guy, good looking guy. comes in. donald, we have no trade deficit. he's very proud because everybody else we're getting killed. i said, whoa, justin, you do. i didn't even know.

josh, i had no idea. i just said you're wrong. you know why. >> because we're so sooupd. >> one of these politicians whether they're mitt romney or barack obama or in guy the president learned there are people in the room with phones who pick up everything they say. this morning, donald trump doubled down tweet wiig do have a trade deficit with canada as we do with almost all countries. some of them massive. >> prime minister trudeau of canada doesn't like saying that canada has a surplus versus the united states. negotiating. but they do. and they also -- almost all do. that's how i know. that's a tweet. politifact calls the president's commence dubious and writes the united states actually had a trade spur plus with canada. canada has brought bought more from the united states than the united states bought from canada. those weren't the only classic comments from the president last night. next, what trump said about the democrat who just won in pennsylvania. that's next with the "hardball" roundtable.

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everything. i love the tax cuts. everything. you wouldn't have known. pretty smart race actually. but he ran and he ran on that basis. he ran on a campaign and said very nice things about me. i kept saying is he a republican. he sounded like a republican to me. >> that's spin city. karine jean-pierre, national spokesperson for moveon.org, john whitbeck chairman of the virginia republican party and howard fineman contributor fob nbc news.com. howard, why is he doing this saying i lie to the prime minister of canada, probably our best friend in the world? we've never had a border fight with them or anything. >> other presidents. >> other presidents have not -- have bent the truth or outright lied. this is the first guy i can recall who is not only done it but bragged about his own ignorance on something. why does he do it? because he can. because he's donald trump and he has such contempt for the whole

system. based on facts, based on argument, based on policy, based on institutions, based on the whole world we know he's going to say you know what? i don't even have to care whether it's true. i can make it all up and still be a better president than anybody else. >> hear what he's saying about your guy, calling him a liar. >> this wouldn't be the first time a liberal called donald trump a liar. >> a liberal. you're calling howard a liberal? >> we've seen this before. this president does everything unorthodox. american people saw it in 2016. come on. >> word for lying. >> karine? lying is now unorthodox. >> here's the problem. when the president of the united states lies all the time, can't put a sentence together without lying it, hurts the credibility of the office. not just him. the office. the country. if he's lying to our allies, what is he going to do when he finally, if this happened, meets was kim jong-un the lying is a

problem. >> the lying would actually indicate that he had some idea or that he cared either possibly or negatively. what he says is i don't care if i'm telling the truth. i don't care. don't you find that more than unorthodox and troubling? >> i'll tell you what, we have a $17 billion trade deficit in goods and services make it up at the border. >> the canadian border? >> that's right. >> >> politifact is frequently wrong about the president. let me tell you something. >> you're putting it on the record we have a trade deficit with canada? >> $17 billion in goods coming forward. they do sell more goods to us than we do to them. >> that's beside the point. >> the point is he didn't care whether he was right or not. if he's -- he's wrong but if he was accidentally right it's only accidentally because he said to these people in missouri he didn't care whether he knew what the facts were.

>> he was proud of it. he was proud he was lying. > like watching a 6-year-old trying to drive an 18-wheeler. his feet don't reach the pedals and he can't see over the dash board. >> what do you making about conor lamb being the most trump-like. he was pro labor. he's pro-choice on the law. i'm trying to think where he and trump are together. >> a great example is guns. he was for reasonable background checks. >> is that where trump is? >> that's not where trump is. >> trump does not believe in. >> you can't tell where trump is. >> trump doesn't even know where he is. >> conor lamb said he wanted universal background collect. >> he said no new restrictions on guns an. >> trump is with the nra. >> i'm going to throw nancy pelosi under the bus. >> that has nothing to do with anything. it's not part, the reason he won was the messaging. he talked about health care. >> rejecting the resistance

agenda. maga agenda. >> he talked about things that republicans don't want to do medicare, medicaid. your tax plan did not work. it did not working. > calling on my expertise as a perjure and who followed the campaign closely and somebody. >> he's big with the penguins. >> and talked with conor lamb a couple hours ago, i asked him, are you a trump guy? he said absolutely not. i'm a pennsylvania democrat. and also when donald trump said in missouri, he said nice things about me and he supported -- he campaigned on my tax cuts. that's not true. that is just not true. what conor lamb did is said i'm a western pennsylvania pragmatic guy. yes, i value the second amendment. yes, i'm culturally traditional. yes, i'm for tariffs but i'm also pro union, pro social security, medicare. the trick he pulled off was that he grabbed back the cultural

traditionalism of the democratic party plus the unions. >> roundtable sticking with us. up next, these people will tell me something i don't know. right back. ♪ ohh ♪ crawl inside ♪ wait by the light of the moon ♪ ♪ come to my window ♪ i'll be home soon ♪ ♪ i'll be home, i'll be home ♪ ♪ i'm coming home ♪ ♪ come to my window ♪ ohh applebee's to go. order online and get $10 off $30. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood.

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stomach-area pain and swelling. ask your doctor if 90 days of linzess may be right for you. we're back with the "hardball" roundtable. karine, tell me something i don't know. >> wells fargo seems to getting closer to the epicenter of the gun fight because they are basically making money off the gun industry. they are one of the main bankers for the nra. and april 24th, they are having their shareholders meeting and there's probably going to be a lot of people coming up to them and wondering what's going on there. >> about time. howard? i'm sorry, john's next. >> in 2011, a republican won in anthony weiner's district. that real deep blue district and no republicans went around saying there was going to be a giant red tsunami. >> who was this person. >> i don't remember his name. the businessman. >> in brooklyn. >> absolutely right.

and giant red tsunami was never mentioned by the republicans. >> howard? >> speaking of conor lamb, i spoke to him before the show and asked him why there's so many military people running on the democratic side. 25 or 30 candidates. including lots in the marines like him. he said it's note just the patriotism or the service, it's that the military shows the ideal of inclusion and performance-based judgment that the whole society should follow. he learned that in the marines. and that's the pattern he wants to follow. >> i like the pattern. thank you ca rin, john whitbeck, tough group here. howard, thank you for being the expert here on the issue we fought over. we'll be right back. so i'm not happy unless my hands are dirty. between running a business and four kids, we're busy. auto insurance, homeowner's insurance, life insurance policies. knowing that usaa will always have my back... that's just one less thing you have to worry about. i couldn't imagine going anywhere else. they're like a friend of the family. we are the cochran family,

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trump watch, thursday march 15th, 2018. i think of donald trump as the titanic and robert mueller as the iceberg. the titanic is luxurious, sort of like a mar-a-lago, rooms large and beautifully appointed. there's a stateliness to the rooms, a bit of ralph lauren in first class. mahogany and imagine the framed pictures of fox hunts in the morning. aristocrats are welcome here. out in the cold guaans distance likes the iceberg. it appears small, nonthreatening. here on the hms trump, the music plays, the on deck sports continue. all appears warm, calm, triumphant. someone dares to whisper, not even god himself can sink this

ship. but out there in the night, something causes the great ship to shudder. what was that terrible grinding sound the passengers wonder? what was the tearing at the hull. tonight we got the word the ship and iceberg made contact. it's now a platter of time whether the great ship stays an float or as we sang at camp goes to the bottom of it. something tells me when it comes to espapering disaster on the hms trump, it's not going to be women and children first. that's "hardball" for now. "all in with chris hayes" tonig- >> i said if it's possible, will you let me know am i under investigation. >> mueller is time for the trump org. >> they saw say there's no collusion. and there is no collusion. >> for the first time, the special counsel has subpoenaed the president's business. >> it's a democrat hoax. >> tonight, what robert mueller wants as a showdown with the president looms. plus, th