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millions of people around the globe hearing this message on easter sunday. >> translator: it bears fruits of hope and dignity where there are deprivation and exclusion. where there is hunger and unemployment. where there are migrants and refugees. migrants and refugees so often rejected by today's culture of waste. >> and a little later millions more hearing this. >> a lot of people are coming in because they want to take advantage of daca. and we're going to have to really see. we had a great chance. the democrats blew it. they send them in to the united

states. can't happen that way anymore. >> that was the president as he and the first lady walked into easter church services today. he had a tweet saying need wall. and this one concluding with no more daca deal. president spending the holiday at his club in palm beach. but according to "the washington post" the president's chief of staff and supposed moderating force in the west wing john kelly did not travel with him and senior adviser steven miller did. want to welcome in the panel. here in new york, business and politics reporter for "the wall street journal" shelby holiday. editor at large for reason magazine, matt welch. in d.c. writer for "the atlantic" molly and betsy woodruff. thank you for being with us on this easter sunday night. betsy, you and the news. i think the president we're not clear what prompted the tweets

this morning and might have been seeing something on fox fews about folks making way to the mexican border. he sends off the series of tweets and says no more daca deal f. you're a democrat or if you're a republican in washington, thinking there's a compromise to be worked on here, what's your reaction to this tonight? >> it's certainly a reaction of pessimism for democrats. the tweets and miller for years back to his time on capitol hill under then senator jeff sessions is one that people are coming to the united states because they want to get daca, there's scant if any proof that daca was a driver of illegal immigration. however, that line is something that stephen miller and folks in his broader cohort have been pushing for years, that daca was

the reason for all sorts of bad things that happened at the border, that have happened over the years since the policy was put in place. so, the president seems to be tweeting and talking in a way that suggests or indicates that stephen miller is ascend ant within his inner circle. >> it's interesting, too, shelby, because we've seen the president with this issue on dak a we've seen conflicting signals the laviolette several months. he was at the meeting talking about we're going to get this deal done. he said he seize this, sometimes he sees this as an issue of drying to do the right thing morally by these folks. >> right. >> now you get this, i think this does raise the question what betsy was saying there about stephen miller maybe having his ear on this. even if the president at least partly is inclined to get to a deal on this, can he ever actually sign off on it with stephen miller and with folks on the right who have that sort of view of this? >> right. well, that's a major question. the president has said that he wants a deal, now he's saying absolutely not. there are questions about how much he even understands daca at this point, as we heard him in that sound bite say people are

coming in to take advantage of daca. as my colleague at the "wall street journal" said you can't take advantage of daca if you're coming in now or in the future. it is unclear if the president really understands this policy and i also think it is worth noting there have been potential deals in the past that he has said no to because they didn't do enough for family migration, they didn't do enough for the diversity visa lottery program. so, people have sort of tried to meet him in the middle and it is unclear where he'd be willing to -- he hasn't put down any markers as to where he would be willing to accept a deal. it makes negotiating with the president like that really hard because nobody knows what he's willing to take. >> and so meanwhile the whole issue just kind of sits here. it's unresolved. the status of these kids and others potentially in limbo, matt. it's going through the court system a little bit. some sense maybe something will happen politically, maybe not now based on this. is this going to sort of sit there? the administration also -- you have tru sending signals saying, hey, even if we don't get this changed we're not going to do anything. is this going to sit unresolved

for the foreteeseeable future? >> until the courts resolve, yes. president trump keeps trying to pin it on democrats every single time. democrats didn't deal -- it's on them. there's a little bit of panic behind that. any time you poll this question to support daca or support the notion of kids who came here ill littlely should or should not be deported we're talking two-thirds to 80% of americans who say don't deport those kids. when we start seeing those kids get deported whether it's people who have signed up for daca program which is something like 800,000, or the much larger population i think it's more like 1.8 million of kids who are here illegally who are under 18, once we start seeing that footage of them getting deported, it's not democrats who are going to be blamed. i do not think. it is going to be donald trump because he made the proactive decision to kick daca back to congress with the six-month d deadline and that passed in march. it is going to be on him. we are seeing some panic in his voice as he does this.

that said it's his decision. if he clearly thinks the politician on his base or some level are going to be good for huh him. within his base, this is the defining issue trump ran on in addition to everything else he said. at the same time all of this is playing after the trump administration has been accelerating plans for a wall, spanning the border with mexico, on friday officials announced they have funding to build or replace 100 miles of fencing. pentagon chief spokesperson confirming the president spoke with defense secretary jim mattis about the possibilities of using defense department funds for the wall. and during a speech in cleveland, the president seemed to compare the u.s./mexico border to another global hot spot. >> look at korea. we have a border at korea. we have a wall of soldiers. we don't get paid very much for this, do we? you look at that. nobody comes through. but our own border, we don't take care of it. think of it.

we spend billions of dollars in other countries maintaining their borders and we can't maintain our borders in our own country. is there something a little bit wrong with that? >> and julia, what's so interesting about that, we're playing that from the president in ohio, a rally he had a couple days ago, that is trump speaking to his base. that's trump like he was in all the republican primary rallies he was, general election rallies. that is him speaking to his base. the rhetoric there you're hearing on the border on mexico, on immigration, it's same rhetoric during the campaign. the difference is he's been president more than a year. >> right, this is the problem we've had since he became president, how to differentiate between the overt political messaging and the reality of what he wants to do policy wise. so, is he really calling for a demilitarized zone with absolutely no movement back and forth at the u.s./mexico border? hard to say because on one hand it's just a political rally.

he's talking to his base. he's also the commander in chief. i think a lot of this is unfortunately political messaging in the same way the citizenship question we're seeing now on the 2020 census. i think a lot of this is little lobs across the white house fence to the base. and i think, you know, the president knows the 2018 election is coming up and i think some kind of daca deal might not play well with that riled up base that's still really, really approves of him. >> let me talk about the politics of this, though, from a slightly different direction, too. matt just said, too, from trump's standpoint, this idea and republican standpoint, this idea you would then have -- if this expires, if there's been enforcement, if there is then deportations, from a public relations standpoint that could be terrible for trump, be terrible for the republicans. i am reminded a couple months ago when was tied in with government funding it was the democrats who ended up getting nervous in that situation. they felt while there was broad public december think for the dreamers, it start today look like democrats were prioritizing

the dreamers over government funding and democrats then backed down a little bit. i wonder, betsy, maybe i'll throw this to you. if this thing goes into limbo for the next few months where there's no deal on daca, trump's not moving toward a deal, but we're also not getting deportations. is there any political risk there for democrats just in terms of the more they talk about this at the expense of talking about jobs or, you know, social security, any of their traditional bread and butter issues, that that issue -- what are they prioritizing here comes into play? >> the priority question puts democrats between a rock and a hard place. the reality is that their base for the most part is very doggedly supportive of the daca program and, in fact, i remember in 2014 when i covered that midterm election season, one of the problems for democrats was that they hadn't been able to get comprehensive immigration reform passed. at that point the president hadn't taken all the steps he would end up taking to try to protect some undocumented immigrants. and as a result, many hispanic voters just decided to stay home. and, in fact, there was at least

one activist group that was encouraging its members not to vote for democrats because they thought democrats hadn't fought hard enough and, of course, the caving that we saw from chuck schumer when democrats tried to use a government shutdown legislation to save daca but then failed, that's something that frustrates their base at the same time for democrats to win over the votes in that blue wall, for them to win back the blue wall, pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin, even -- look, minnesota is no longer on lock for democrats. they have to talk about some of the more traditionally blue collar issues that republicans talked about successfully in 2016. it's a really tough spot for them to be in and i imagine that congressman ellis on might have one or two thoughts about it. it's ape dicey situation for them. >> i'm going to ask him about that as soon as we get him out here. but, shelby, i am interested, how did sort of split the -- is there a way politically to split the difference? because as betsy is saying there in terms of the democratic base, in terms of, you know, latino voters, latino activists in particular, this is the issue.

>> right. >> right now, and on the other hand, you talk about some of those voters out there who traditionally voted democrat, flipped to trump, who maybe want to see a democrat get up there and say, take a harder line on the border. is there any way you can span that divide? >> it's hard when you have a president also who is changing his mind in, like i said, sort of making it impossible to negotiate. but i think one issue that the democrats really struggle with is they're not united. we saw -- i went back during what we call the chuck schumer debacle, some democrats were sort of floating the idea that it would be great to give the president his wall, take the daca deal, move on. and other democrats said absolutely not, no way. because there is a lack of unity, it's not just where they can find common ground. it's -- they're just on completely different ends of this issue and it's unclear if they can all -- they've done a really good job sticking together the past year. on this particular issue, this is not an instance where they have stuff together and it's really hurt them. >> and the other sort of flare-up on this front politically this week, matt, was over this question of the

census. the census is going to be taken in 2020. the trump administration is going to put back into the census the question about immigration status. folks in this country lawfully. there is a backlash from activists groups on the left, some on the right as well. this is one where i am very curious to see what the polling is on this because i can imagine there are objections, there are concerns that have been raised about is this going to intimidate folks into not answering the question, getting an inaccurate count, all sorts of implications for that. i can imagine that resonating with people. i can imagine people out there saying, shouldn't we know how many citizens are in this country? >> if you polled the question, should congress be reapportioned every ten years based on total population, including illegal immigrants, you get a whole lot of people saying no, and yet that is the constitution and legal fact in the united states. this is part of the reason why republicans have been asking and been agitating for this to happen for a long time. david vitter, former senator for

louisiana, chris kobak, notorious secretary of state in kansas who has been going after the illusion of illegal immigrant voter fraud for a long time, they have backed this a long time. the question being put on the census a long time particularly because they know, or they hope it would lead to a lower response rate among illegal immigrants. there by, making that redrawing exercise more favorable for states that don't have illegal immigrant populations because on some level it sort of feels wrong. we shouldn't do this. well, that's what we have been doing. redraw the maps based on total population regardless of voting rights. it's been that way for a long time. so, commerce secretary wilbur ross when he defended this thing, he had a very i think insincere claim that, well, we don't have good data to support that will say larger nonresponse rates. there's been six former directors of the census bureau who are ringing the alarm, bipartisan both parties appointed saying this is obviously going to affect response rates in a negative way.

so, this is smash mouth politics right now. republicans are trying to get a better outcome in 2020 based on this, knowing, i think, this is going to reduce, suppress or depress turnout among illegal immigrant residents. >> that is coming up in two years from now. we have a lot coming up on this show. just getting started. a chill at the outset of spring, the u.s. and russia take turns sending home each other's diplomats. later deputy majority whip, tom cole, one of the tonight republicans, we'll talk about new reports about the desire for fresh blood in the republican leadership. and as we go to break, very few white house staffers got the send off that hope hicks did this week. our producers tried to make it up to those who have come and gone without such fanfare. you're watching "kasie d.c." >> thank you to secretary shulkin. >> general h.r. mcmaster. . >> i wish rex tillerson well. >> gary cohn, the president of goldman sachs. >> hope hicks. director comey. >> the greatest businessman in the world.

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the russian diplomats kicked out of the u.s. arrived back in moscow this morning.

this right here, video showing the first of the two planes carrying them and their families back home. this is all part of a diplomatic game of chicken between russia and the united states over the poisoning of an ex-russian spy on british soil. this week the trump administration decided to kick out 60 russian diplomats, also shuttering the country's seattle consulate. the u.s. joined the u.k., nato and 25 other countries that also expelled russian diplomats. russia, meanwhile, now in the process of kicking out 150 western diplomats in response. nbc's savannah guthrie spoke with russia's ambassador to the united states who explained why russia took that action. >> if anybody slap your cheek, your face, what will be reaction from your side? you will think, not you will think, you will try to do and you will retaliate. it goes without saying. >> we reserve the right to respond. >> to respond to their response? >> correct. >> so, in other words, this is

not over, this could -- it's not necessarily over? we could be -- we could see an escalation beyond this? >> i'm not going to predict anything that could happen, but we certainly have the ability to do so. >> all right. >> two members of the u.s. -- two members of the u.s.-led coalition -- boy, i screwed that up badly. let me start again. two members -- that is later in the show. we're going to talk about russia first. that's my bad. i'm sorry about that. let me bring in julia who knows a thing or two about the situation in the united states and russia. julia, this week we heard all sorts of talk about this is a level of tension we hadn't seen since the cold war. you had the diplomats being kicked out here. you had russia responding. you had russia doing that missile test saying, hey, this is a missile -- the united states wouldn't even be able to handle. and then you have add we just showed in the clip right there at the end, the possibility that there could be further escalation. i think the question that comes out of that, what would further escalation look like? >> well, the thing is that vladimir putin likes to be unpredictable.

he likes to outfox the west and have us responding to his unpredictability. what i worry about personally is that it's going to involve yet another foreign adventure in some way syria, the russian intervention in syria was a response to russia's isolation after its invasion of ukraine and its illegal annexation of crimea. so, now russia is again very isolated, having brought itself in from the cold a little bit in syria, and the question is what is vladimir putin going to do now. in some ways he's kind of a wounded animal backed into a corner. there is not a lot of good options for him. there is not a lot of good options for the states either. people keep comparing it to the cold war, but it's very different from the cold war. in the cold war there were rules and protocols that both sides followed. there were kind of things that were off limits. here, the russians especially seem to be very, you know,

gloves off, protocol thrown to the side. and we also have a very unpredictable man in the white house, where russia policy is kind of bifurcated. we have president trump saying things that are very favorable of russia or kind of calling into question the american intelligence communities' assessment of russia and then the trump administration which, you know, is kicking out diplomats, which is being quite hawkish on russia. so, it's kind of hard to even gauge where the americans are coming at this from. the level of unpredictability on both sides is very troubling. >> i think that's the most fascinating aspect of all this. let me ask the panel about this. matt, i'll start with you. look, the charge against donald trump from the 2016 campaign through this day has been that he's soft on russia, he's soft on putin, that he has some sort of soft spot for putin. that's one thing. the other thing is you've got this trump administration right now kicking out dozens of russian diplomats. you have the trump administration sending these anti-tank missiles over to

ukraine, taking steps that even the obama administration wouldn't do. you've got some actual aggressive steps being taken by the administration while the president continues to say things that are suspicions he and putin are a little too close. how is it possible to square those two things? >> if you judge things, if you remove, lobotomize yourself, the kerfuffle, ri yong eactions como 2013 -- 2015 might be a better thing. i hesitate to be too sure when we have julia on this panel here. but you would say that the trump administration has been tougher than the obama administration kind of at large was towards russia. and i think we can get into our own heads a little bit too much about all of this. the most i think significant aspect of all of this is for the first time in a good while we have seen all of the nato countries, or most of the nato

countries, acting in concert together. it's not even at the leadership of the united states at this point. it's more germany and united kingdom. acting in a way to say, hey, look, you poisoned people in the past and we didn't really do too much here. we're kind of irritated by you right now and we are going to act in a collective pretty strong significant way. i think that gets the phrase article 5 back up in people's spines in a way we haven't seen in a long time. ultimately, vladimir putin wants to believe or wants to be in the situation where it's, eh, maybe they don't want to defend the baltics after all. what we see now is they're going to defend the baltics regardless of who is in the white house. >> julia, president trump, his relationship with nato, his public comments about nato, the trip he took to europe last year raised all sorts of questions about whether he had any use for nato. now you have a situation where nato is taking the lead a bit here, where the trump administration is taking these aggressive steps. the question -- one of the questions that kind of emerges

to me is how much of this is president trump somehow being pushed into this by folks in his administration. are folks in his administration somehow doing this without him being fully aware? do we have a sense where this is coming from exactly? >> well, again, this is what's so troubling on the american side is that there's president trump and there's his administration. there's his administration saying when you're on the phone call with vladimir putin, do not congratulate him on his win in a rigged election. and what does president trump do? he congratulates vladimir putin on his win in the rigged election. you have the trump administration saying, you know, say something about the poisoning. chastise him in this phone call about the -- for the poisoning. what does president trump do? he doesn't. so, there is on one hand this reality that things have gotten really, really bad for the u.s./russia relationship in a way they hadn't been under the obama administration, though they got pretty bad then, too.

and you did have the obama administration marshaling the countries of europe to unite, even though some were dragged in kicking and screaming on the anti-russia sanctions for ukraine. you didn't have this kind of, you know, the right hand doesn't know what the left arm is doing. i think that's really scary. we don't know even where our executive branch stands on russia. >> how would you, michelle -- our policy towards russia in the trump heera, how do you look at it? you can look at it through the prism of the 2016 election. you can look at it through the prism of sending the anti-tanks. >> i'll bring up the elephant in the room. there are questions about whether or not the president could be compromised or blackmailed by vladimir putin. so, i think when you look at his actions, people still have that question in their minds. do they make sense of him congratulating him putin, for example, because putin may have something on him? i mean, that's unclear. we'll find out when mueller continues as he continues his

investigation. but i think you do have to -- you can't just say the president is soft on russia, yet his administration is taking all of these steps. i mean, he is the head of the administration. he could stop some of these things from happening. i do think he's probably in a strange awkward place now because he is friendly personally with vladimir putin, yet seems to feel very threatened by some of the moves russia is making. and that comment by the diplomat was so shocking because they poisoned -- they tried to kill a russian man and his daughter and he's saying that they were slapped in the face first. and this is how russia acts. they go out, they're very provocative, they take some sort of wild action no one should ever tolerate, and what you saw with the nato expelling of diplomats is pretty typical. we still haven't seen that for the u.s. election. we saw some sanctions but we never saw this concerted huge forceful push back after russia meddled in our election. unclear if we will ever see that. >> could i jump in here a little bit? >> yes, quickly. >> sorry.

what i want to say from the russian perspective, i think the russians are trying to show once again as it has been trying to show for years, that the west is not in a position to punish russia, that this is in some way an internal thing, russia going after a former russian spy. russia is a peer to the united states and nato and you can't punish russia like a recalcitrant child. of course, russia, by doing these -- by having these provocative actions for which, you know, they're basically begging to be punished, they're really kind of calling the west's bluff all the time. and unfortunately because of the way the play is set up from the russian perspective, we often end up playing into putin's hands. >> okay. going to take a quick break here. when we return, though, we're going to talk to congressman keith ellison, democrat of minnesota with early signs of what democrats hope will be a historic wave. can democrats take back the house? can they downplay the trump tax cut? can they avoid unforced errors?

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well, hillary clinton is not on the ballot this year, but

republicans are still using her to try to fire up their conservative base. nbc's rebecca shabad cites so far at least three republican candidates or groups have released ads slamming clinton. some are using her controversial comments in recent weeks on trump voters in middle america with the hopes of tying clinton to democrats currently running for office. and joining me now is the deputy chair of the democratic national committee, congressman keith ellison of minnesota. one of those democrats leading the charge, they're trying to take back the house this year. congressman, thanks for joining us. legalities' ta let's talk about that effort. democrats haven't been there in 18 years. the new report we have on nbcnews.com, they think hillary clinton is going to be a weapon for them because of those comments in part, at least, she made a few weeks ago about trump areas of the country being backward looking, sort of tale of two countries there. let me ask you, the road to a house majority, the road to a senate majority for that matter,

goes through some places donald trump won and some some cases won them big. those comments from hillary clinton, are they going to hurt you at all? >> hey, look, we're going to be focusing on working class kitchen table issues. i was in trenton, michigan, yesterday and in detroit, too. people want to talk about pensions, wages. they want to know, if i can get a job, can i get one that's going to pay me a livable wage? right now they're fighting in michigan to get fair wages for servers and stuff like that. those are the issues. conor lamb ran and he talked about unions, the right to organize, he talked about pensions. and he talked about workers. and that's what we're going to hit. man, more than talking bad about anybody, we're talking in favor of the american people. we're talking about -- to folks in missouri, michigan, all over the country, we're going to wisconsin. we're going all over. we are engaging people on these kind of things. >> i take the point -- >> keeping the main thing the

main thing how people can make a living. >> sir, i take the point. but republicans are saying exactly what you're describing there, they're saying they think it's going to be undercut because they've got this very prominent democrat who the party nominated for president two years ago talking about those places you're talking about winning saying these are the backward looking areas of the country. is that going to hurt you? do you want her out there campaigning for democrats? >> you know, let me tell you, i don't think one comment one person makes is the issue. i think people want to know what are you doing for us. you know, when i was in detroit and in trenton yesterday, people kept bringing up pensions. we've got a pension crisis going on in this country. and if somebody comes to them and says, hey, this one poll said this one thing this time. people are going to be like, whatever, man. i want to know what is the democrat party going to fight for me and my family as i look forward to retirement? the answer is emphatically absolutely yes. so, i just want to tell you, man, we're not just trying to win back the u.s. house and the

u.s. senate. we are fighting up and down the ballot. we're trying to get state legislators in, municipal officials. i met a guy who is the president of the democratic municipal officials, councilmember scott vincent. we're talking to folks like him so we can win up and down the ballot. our vision is bigger than washington. we want the whole thing. >> what about, talking about those everyday folks out there you're trying to win over, the republican message, certainly from donald trump, is going to run on the tax cut. going to run on the republicans voting at the end of the last year, trump signing a tax cut. your criticism of it as democrats, the rich are getting way too much here. but the fact is working people did it, they did get something. let me ask you this. is the democrat krk message to those working folks that you can keep the tax cut that you got from donald trump, or is the message, repeal the tax cut? >> i think the message for the rich est folks who got the tax cut and the big companies needs to be repeal them. i have no idea why corporate tax

rate needs to drop from 35% to 20, why we need to essentially cut the estate tax which only the richest people benefit from. folks know -- >> okay. what about the tax cut folks got this their paychecks? >> what they want to know is how are we going to live the american dream. how are we going to create a society where our kids can expect to do better than us. nothing about these tax cuts indicates that. in fact, the working folks quote tax cuts to the degree they exist at all, are temporary and the big company's tax cuts are permanent. so, we're going to be arguing about how we can do better, how you can move forward to a better life. that's what we're talking about. >> they are temporary, but they do go for a number of years here. is the message to those working folks -- not talking the 1%. the working folks, the folks who have it in their paycheck, for instance. is the message that if democrats get control of the house that, hey, we don't think it was enough. we think it was too small. but you can keep the tax cut you

got, or is the message that tax cut is going away? >> look, the problematic tax cuts are the one that blow a massive hole in our budget next year. those are the problems. you know, the problem is not that working people get a few bucks here and there. they need a future, not some small money so that trump can get buckets of movie to the richest people in the country. people are smart. they know, they know they're being played. >> is there a commitment there the tax cuts for working class folks, for middle class folks stay? is that what you're trying to say here? >> look, you know how the legislative process works. we're going, we're going to go back there and we're going to look at what kind of tax situation we're going to have, that it's fair to everybody. that's what we're going to do. but the bottom line is these taxes to the wealthiest and the big companies are not fair. they put a burden on state and local governments and put the burdens on shoulders of working people.

it's not just the tax cuts. it's also the budget impact that tax cuts are going tomorrow. those things hurt working people and we're fighting for working folks. >> let me ask you about the news the president made today. we were talking about it earlier on the subject of daca and he put out a tweet, no daca deal. how do you regard that message? do you think that ends the matter in terms of him coming to a compromise with you guys? >> well, it doesn't end the matter. i can tell you that a whole lot of young people who may be fighting for immigration reform and people who are not immigrants, but who care about immigrants, we're not going to stop fighting for immigration justice no matter what trump has to say. let me tell you, personally, back when trump ended the daca program back in september, i knew he wasn't going to do anything about it. when he referred to the lot of the countries that people come from in such an ugly derisive way, he never had a plan to fix

daca. he turned down guy partisan deals. did was always a game, never a trick. he wasn't arguing in good faith, we are and we're going to keep fighting for daca folks. >> i want to figure out how you're interpreting this. that seems to be in the era we're in, the trump era, how to interpret the presidential tweets, the statements, whether he was blowing off steam or venting or doing some momentary thing, or do you take that tweet to mean there's not -- he's not going to be willing to compromise with you no matter what? >> you know what, we're never going to stop fighting for da a. and if trump has a change of heart that's fine. we're never going to stop fighting for immigration reform, justice for young people. whether trump sends out a tweet or not. so, my answer to your question is no matter what he does, we're fighting for immigration justice. we believe in liberty and justice for all, which includes the daca kids and all immigrants. we're not backing off that. he tweets all kind of crazy stuff all the time. it's hard to keep up with what he's trying to do at a given

moment. but i never really believed the guy to tell you the truth but we're going to keep marching no matter what he does. if he won't deal with us we'll deal with him in november. >> all right. congressman keith ellison, democrat from minunesota. thanks for the time. >> you bet. >> when we come back, is scott pruitt the next to go from the trump administration? parodontax, the toothpaste that helps prevent bleeding gums. if you spit blood when you brush or floss you may have gum problems and could be on the journey to much worse. help stop the journey of gum disease. try parodontax toothpaste.

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for birthdays. for turning over new leaves. and we make them for every moment in every corner of the country. we are the coca-cola company, and we're proud to offer so much more. there is zero chaos. we are running, this is a fine tuned machine. >> obvious throuly there is goi be some level of turmoil. >> i don't think there is chaos. >> the drama is there, but that is how the president makes decisions. >> if you want to see chaos come to my house with three preschoolers. this doesn't hold a candle to that. >> i like conflict. i like having two people with different points of view and i certainly have that and then i make a decision. >> the president told me he's perplexed by all these reports there is chaos at the white house. >> he told me that he thinks the white house is operating like a smooth machine, his words.

>> well, the white house begins the week in search of a new communications director and with a nominee for the va to be the va secretary whose qualifications, not as a doctor, but a cabinet level secretary have come into question. and chris christie who if you remember this briefly headed the transition team once upon a team. he added another name to the list of who could be next. >> this was a brutally unprofessional transition. this was a transition that didn't vet people for this type of judgment issues, which i think could have been seen very easily in a lot of these people and you cannot do this with, you know, rick dear born and steve bannon on the back of an envelope in 73 days. and the president has been ill served by this. and if mr. pruitt is going to go it's because he should have never been there in the first place. >> does he need to go? >> listen, i don't know how you survive this one. >> he's talking specifically will about scott pruitt, the epa administrator. the revelation there that he has a condo that -- he's living in a condo co-owned by the wife of a top energy lobbyist. that's what christie is saying

there. betsy woodruff, the broader point chris christie is making obviously chris christie has an axe to grind because for 48 hours he was going to be the guy running the transition for the trump administration back in 2016. so, there's more than a little see i told you so there. what he's describing is not just chris christie who makes that point in washington. it's not just democrats, i mean folks across the party lines say that about the trump administration, about things -- how things have been run there. i think the question is he's pointing back to the transition. has anything changed at all in terms of what he's describing in terms of how the white house now approaches openings and vacancies? >> taking a step back and sort of looking at this from 50,000 feet, the big change really has been general kelly becoming chief of staff. before he stepped in the white house was just a lot more messy, a lot leakier and racked with much more infighting than at least is visible right now. that's a low bar. that is not to suggest the white house is running like the well oiled machine chris ruddy would have us believe it is.

kelly's assent has changed things. we can sue thee that. that said, it doesn't mean everything is working perfectly. the washington post story that came out friday, i would suggest everyone read it. it is an excellent piece of reporting. it highlights the root cause of a lot of these problems which go to the effective staffers, people who never show up on tv, who ant in cameras with the president, but low-level people, especially the offices involving personnel who seem to be making decisions based on family members, or decisions based on motives perhaps other than what's best for the country. post lays this out in great detail. it's complex. it doesn't serve well for perhaps these kinds of conversations, but the way that it elucidates all the challenges facing this white house is valuable. that is something i think an area where i think chris christie probably makes a valid point. firing everybody from transition and restarting in the middle really did set this white house up for chaos. >> it is so interesting to hear you talk about general kelly,

the chief of staff that way. shelby, i think thoekz who are critical of the administration, whether it's democrats or republicans, you hear that name and you hear that observation a lot. that, hey, look, this thing could be a lot worse from their standpoint if you didn't have kelly there. >> uh-huh. >> raises the question, too, with all of this turmoil, his status, his pace in the administration -- >> how long can he last? >> is he enjoying it, does he feel a sense of only allegation to stay on? does trump have patience with him? do we have a sense of that? >> there were some reports and rumors recently, i think within the last month, that he may be out the door. whether it's because he's measurable or the president's frustrated with him. and general kelly has been the subject himself of news, whether it was with rob porter or the wife of the fallen soldier over in africa. so, you know, he's taken some heat. but generally when you hear his name, as you said, it's sort of like the calm in the middle of this big storm. and people are reassured that he's in the middle and he's sort of the voice on the president's

shoulder. unclear how long he'll stay, but i remember talking to leon panetta when general kelly went into the white house and panetta who was a chief of staff, give him six months. you can't judge a chief of stafs you can't judge a chief of staff in six months after that you can tell if it's working and gelling. i don't think we can make a call on whether or not this is a great chief of staff or terrible chief of staff but i think a lot of people around the president hope he'll be there a lot longer. >> it raises the question, too, if not general kelly, if he were to leave for some reason, beside general kelly, is there anyone else in the administration who the critics outside are looking for the calming stabilizing force, whatever you want to call him, that role that's been assigned to him in the court of public opinion, is there anyone else to do that? >> if they don't find that unicorn, i'm sure they'll find somebody else. there's always somebody else this administration manages to find somewhere in the corner of

the universe who's willing to take on these jobs for the short time they're destined to have them. i think it's interesting the president approaches his presidency as if it were the most thrilling season of the apprentice. john bolton didn't qualify for secretary of state because of his disqualifying mustache because he didn't look the part. the new va secretary looks the part, he has a great chin and spoke well of the president. it seems every week somebody has to be voted out and if there's calm the president can't sit still and run the country. >> they're never voted out to that i shall face. >> that's the other part of this. he does it in twitter, never in the board room with them 3 feet away. thank you for all of us. when we return, an inflection point for teachers

all across the country. . it was never enough. i wasn't sure i was going to be able to continue singing. i saw my dentist. he suggested biotene. it feels refreshing. my mouth felt more lubricated. i use biotene rinse twice a day and then i use the spray throughout the day. it actually saved my career in a way. biotene really did make a difference. [heartbeat]

where are we taking him? i have no clue. we're just tv doctors.

if this was a real emergency, i'd be freaking out. but thanks to cigna, we can do more than just look heroic. we can help save lives by getting you to a real doctor for a check-up. nurse, this thing's defective. please don't touch that. we are the tv doctors of america. together with cigna reminding you... to go, know, and take control of your health. doctor poses! cigna. together, all the way. well, education is at a crisis point in states across the country. already this year we saw teachers in west virginia strike over their pay, and now others from coast to coast are following suit. in oklahoma teachers are planning on walk outs after budget crisis had them adopting four day school weeks and raised

taxes where the average teacher would get a $6,000 a year pay raise. in arizona educate or thes demonstrated in phoenix demanding a 20% pay raise, threatening to strike if lawmakers don't respond. let's bring in maya rodriguez. this is part of a bigger story. oklahoma, kentucky, west virginia, arizona we are seeing this in a lot of different places here. what do you expect to happen this week in oklahoma? >> reporter: the teachers we talked to here are heart broken and disappointed it had to come to this. the walkout is scheduled for tomorrow. they say 30,000 people are expected to rally at the capital here in oklahoma city. these teachers say they are not doing this to abandon their

students or to abandon their schools. they say they are doing it for the students because in addition to the pay racise, they want to see several hundred million dollars invested in the schools here. they're hoping the walk out will pressure them to the raise taxes in certain areas to accomplish that. they say they have broken desks, chairs, dealing with textbooks that are 20, 30 years old. classes that have been cancelled, like foreign language and arts classes. and the four-day school week in some of the districts that dealt with the budget issues. what the teachers are hoping to do tomorrow is send a message to the lawmakers here by numbers and by showing up and saying we really need these changes and want to see it happen. right now they're saying the walk out could last indefinitely.

>> thanks for that. don't go anywhere. we are just getting started. in our next hour we're joined by republican congressman tom coal, plus clint watts stops by as we talk about the latest in the mueller investigation. kcdr, getting to the bottom of who bit beyonce. somehow they also found time to watch the sunday show so you don't have to. stay with us. powerful batteries that make everything from cell phones to rail cars more efficient. which helps improve every aspect of advanced rail technology. all with support from a highly-educated workforce and vocational job training. across new york state, we're building the new new york. to grow your business with us in new york state, visit esd.ny.gov.

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it's been a turbulent week. >> more high profile departures and firings. >> david shulkin was fired by tweet. >> this was somewhat of a surprise. >> not the way i do it. >> did you submit a letter of resignati resignation. >> did you resign? >> i did not resign. >> trump's pick ronny jackson. >> you have questions because of lack of experience. >> somebody needs to take that place and turn it upside downs. >> this comes as the president made a series of surprising moves. >> the president announced his intention to pull troops out of syria soon. >> the u.s. expelled 60 top russian diplomats. >> the worst relations between russia and the u.s. since the cold war. >> new cold war. >> this is the '80s to me all over. >> a taste of what they were talking about on the easter

shows this sunday. i'm stephon cla i'm steve kornacki, filling in. danny sivallos, clint watts and phillip bump, jeff mason, alexi mchammond. thank you all for joining us. we are following the mueller investigation. rick gates knowingly communicated during the campaign with someone the fbi believed had active links to russian intelligence services. here's how trey gowdy reacted to that this morning. >> i'm glad we have bob mueller. congress has proven itself incapable of conducting serious

investigations. and our best hope -- >> you include your own committee, house intelligence on that? >> absolutely. not just house intelligence. congressional investigations leak like the "gossip girls," i mean, they're terrible and i would be telling you that if i were staying in congress. >> ron johnson offered a conflicting view of the parallel russian investigations on "meet the press". >> senate and house intelligence committees complete their report because i know what happens when you have a criminal investigation it's that much more difficult for congress to get the information. to allow the american public to understand what's happening. my concern with special counsel mueller is he's so close to the fbi. i've been conducting a three-year investigation on the fbi's investigation of hillary clinton. i think we're starting to see some real problems there. >> a lot to get to here.

clint, let me start with you. when we hear about rick gates, rick gates and paul manafort, we hear about him having contacts with somebody with ties to russian intelligence services during the campaign. it ties to russian intelligence services. you know this world pretty well. can you give us a more tangible idea what that means. >> i was shocked last week people weren't more excited or interested in this because this is what it's about, links between the russian government and the trump campaign or trump campaign members. gates essentially admitted to it. the fbi assessed person a, whoever that might be, there's lots of desbat speculation about it, still had the ties. whether it's current or former. one thing to remember about russia or other countries, is once a spy, always a spy. so we're talking about

oligarchs, contractors. this is how the intelligence works. the whole idea of the russian intelligence was to go around the fringes of the trump campaign to influence them. that's what active measures is, go through diplomatic, military, information and intelligence channels, engage with your content, your message to push it forth. it was a multipronged effort that went over a two-year period. and what gates essentially said was confirmation for why this investigation of collusion started. >> and finding out about this through court filings, is there anything to be read into the fact that mueller is putting this out there? >> this issue came in sentencing memoranda, which the government fooild files in order to make their argument for sentence. this is a sentence of an individual not looking at years, but rather looking at zero to 6 months, this is alex van der

swan. yet mueller's team chose to include a sentence which connects this alleged russia collusion to this particular defendant. why did they decide to do it and put it in a public filing available to anybody with a pacer account. that is the question that's vexed me the last day or so. when they've been so tight lipped about information in general. >> what are the theories out there on that? >> i can't say the word inadverte inadvertent, it sounds silly to say that because they've been so calculated in many other ways. in terms of a sentence memorandum, where the government is not taking a hard line to sentencing. so again, i don't have an answer why they would just include a sentence that essentially connects the defendant in this case, really almost unnecessarily to activities in

2016 with russia, with the gru, with entities that they probably didn't need to include in the sentencing memoranda, be they could argued it orally to the judge at sentencing if they had to have it in there. >> we have so many different names out there, whether it's rick gates, manafort, carter page, so many different names, revelations that came out. i think you took a stab this week at trying to show how all these could connect. i think we have a graphic of these. see if you can take us through it. this is not a traditionally television friendly graphic. make sense of it for the viewers at home. >> there are a lot of different paths if you were looking for a connection between vladimir putin and donald trump, there are at least six different paths you can take that we know of now through election. so there's carter page, who spoke with the deputy prime

minister of russia in moscow in july of 2016. there was person a mentioned earlier by clint is most believed to be this man, konstantin kilimnik, who used to work with manafort and gates, he has obviously connects to gates and manafort, of course, russian intelligence was connected to wikileaks. if we were to believe american intelligence agencies who say it was the intelligence and gru that hacked the dnc and gave the e-mails to wikileaks, then there's another path. there's the famous trump tower meeting a connection between donald trump jr. is, manafort, and jared kushner when they had the meeting with the kremlin connected lawyer. one more is t alexander torsion who made enrods with the nra convection in 2016 and the thing that started this, which was george papadopoulos, the adviser

to the trump campaign, who was told by a kremlin-linked professor in march of 2016 that the russians had incriminating e-mails on hillary clinton, he told an australian dy employipl told the fbi. >> viewers at home, there will be a test on this later. let me bring new on the politics of the ongoing russia probe now. this has been a story for over a year. it goes back to the campaign when the suspicions came out. what's your sense of the temperature both within the white house when it comes to this investigation and political washington in general. >> i think in the white house there's so much going on, russia is a big part of what people think about for sure. there's been the staff of people that i don't need to tell you about in the last several weeks, various policies they've been working on and chaos with people

like hope hicks leaving and the other major departures in the last couple weeks. i think russia has been an issue or a topic that has overshadowed this white house since president trump got into office, but it competes with a lot of other things. generally one other thing i'd like to pick up what danny said. one thing we have seen in the russia investigation, president trump said over and over again this is a witch hunt. what the chart shows is the special counsel has a way to show that it certainly is not a witch hunt. >> danny, looking at that chart that phillip put up, put a legal lens on that. what do you see when you look at that? >> you're looking at really a classic, almost a hub and spoke conspiracy drawing. the kind you see on tv, movie drawings. they put up the pictures and draw lines between them. that's the beginning of a conspiracy drawing, at least in

law enforcement terms. what you see there is connections on that chart that any one of those, any series of those, a creative prosecutor might use to draw a conspiracy. and the challenge for defendants in any conspiracy charges is that any one conspirator is liable for all the acts of all the other conspirators for anything taken in furtherance of the over all conspiracy. these are not the kinds of charges we expect immediately. but when you start drawing all the lines, prosecutors love to use the conspiracy laws. and given that i am a jaded defense attorney, but i think anyone, prosecutors and defense attorneys would agree that the conspiracy laws, rico laws are very favorable to prosecutors and allow for liberal prosecutions of anybody related to the overall agreement. >> the other question, we're all guessing from the outside, one of the things that instruct me

watching the investigation we thought about where mueller is going or looking and there's a court filing, here's a character we never heard of before, it turns out there was something else going on behind the scenes. so there probably is no way to know the answer but watching all of this, what is your sense on how long it is going to take for the special counsel to put together. the immediate question is we have a midterm election coming up and this has been a cloud over washington for the two years of the trump administration. >> it's hard to say. these things go on for a long time. but there are some gates -- i shouldn't say that. there are markers to look at. manafort has a trial coming up. what if they come up with additional charges they want to push. they'll have to do that relatively soon. they'll want to do that in terms of bartering back and forth with him. overall, i think summertime is going to be a hot period, not

only for the investigation but building up to the final interviews and the big one everyone wants to know about is how will the president handle an actual interview. for my thinking, if hi to guess about it right now, september will be the month, if i had to pick one, where you see the cull my mags of a lot of interviews, court filings and indictments standing out there and there's only so much room to run. there's four angles to this now, there's collusion, obstruction, the whole russia interference in the election but also other crimes that might have been discovered during the course of the investigation. we forget about this cutter versus uae fiasco and everything going on out there. i think there will be indictments. i think the chart does show, the russians would not run that sort of an operation if they had the

manchurian candidate. this is not an a natural ally, this is trying to influence that target, infiltrate that target through many angles to nudge and push them forward but also maintain plausible deniable. >> the other question is the republican party, having to run in 2018 as the party of the president, the party of trump. i know publically they don't like to talk about this, but behind the sceneses what do you hear? >> i think we've seen, even today, how trey gowdy and lindsey graham are unhappy with the way that trump is handling russia in general and leaves questions in people's minds why he is soft on vladimir putin as if he has something on him or he is worried about blackmail of some sort, calling it a witch hunt and a hoax but we've seen

how bob mueller is doing consequential work. so i think we see that worry from trump reflected in his tweets but privately and publically i think republicans are trying to avoid it at all costs, in the same way they have with stormy daniels for a few reasons. i think polls show americans don't care about the russia investigation if the time line that was mentioned is right after all and things come to a head in late summer or september, that's obviously right before the november election and that could present a huge problem for republicans and voters who are deciding if they want to vote for members of the republican party. >> that's one of the many x factors out there as the midterm election begins to sktake shape here. we're going to dig behind the data behind the big ratings win for "roseanne." the new numbers that have some

rethinking their midterm strategy. i'm joined by republican tom cole. the republicans trying to hold off a blue sbaef hang onto the house. much more after this. if you spit blood when you brush or floss you may have gum problems, and could be on the journey to much worse. try parodontax toothpaste. it's clinically proven to remove plaque, the main cause of bleeding gums. for healthy gums and strong teeth. leave bleeding gums behind with parodontax toothpaste.

how could you have voted for him, roseanne? >> he talked about jobs, jackie. said he'd shake things up. this might come as a shock to you but we almost lost our

house. >> have you watched the news because now things are worse. >> not on the real news. >> that was earlier this week. maybe you watched it, you probably heard a lot about it. a lot of people watched it, how many over 20 million. the revival after the first time around, they brought "roseanne" back. that is ans a stounding number, network television doesn't get numbers like that anymore. it caused a stir in politics because as you saw there, the show was very political. and the audience appeal, this is the interesting part. the audience appeal, it was trump's america. the top markets, this got a lot of attention for this show. pittsburgh, the pittsburgh area, that was the heart of trump country in pennsylvania. tulsa, oklahoma, detroit, chicago, these are the top markets where the ratings were the highest. philadelphia number 12. new york down at 31, la at 38.

this was not a show in the major coastal population centers that popped the ratings but in the other places it did. if you look back to when "roseanne" first came on the air 30 years ago, it was the same story back then. tulsa was the top market 30 years ago, number two this time around. houston was up there. here's an interesting one, seattle and taco ma. it was up in 8 nowhere to be scene now. these were the kinds of markets it scored in 30 years later. so "roseanne" has had the that middle american appeal, what you would now call red state appeal. but the difference is 30 years later, donald trump is president. in this show, at least that first go round, seemed to connect with those characters

with an actress who publically supports trump. if you need any more proof how political it cause, the president was talking about it. >> look at "roseanne." i called her yesterday. look at her ratings. they were unbelievable. over 18 million people. and it was about us. they haven't figured it out, the fake news hasn't quite figured it out yet. >> joining us on the set now trip gabriel. i'll start with you, trip. there's a big debate what the ratings mean. it was a funny show, it was funny the last time around, this time around. but it did connect with a part of the country that normally these hit television shows don't connect with, and it connected with messages, at least from the roseanne character that you're

not hearing from other places. >> a lot of network television the last few years has been about diversity and underrepresented populations, and i think a lot of people responded to this show in the markets that you highlighted because it was about representation. they were seeing a shabby couch, working class people splitting the pills they get, they can't afford their pills. work, unemployment are big issues. seeing one self on camera drives the ratings. >> what do you make of it. >> two things. i think a lot of this is driven by the fact that what donald trump seized on in 2016, is the sense of nastallgia and that plays in two ways with "roseanne." it was popular in the '80s and '90s. but secondarily it was nostalgic

for the same things trump was eccpressing, the america past. it's theoretically set in illinois one of the things that's fascinating is the first episode was political and showed a lot of tension that i don't recall from the show. it's in two counties, cook and cane, both became democratic between '88 and 2016 while the counties that surrounded it became more republican. i think that divide we see just in those two counties with eljin is reflected in the difference we see in "roseanne" as well. >> to the world of "roseanne," you're saying elgin, illinois they gave clues that placed it, but where it is nationally talking about politics, it is in the heart of noncollege whites,

whites without college degrees. blue colar whites that turned out and voted for trump. very interesting thing that came out this week. there's been a study done post election about what we saw in the exit polls and what was the reality on election day. here's the thing. look at this. the day tay you see on the right. there's some reason to think this is more reliable than what we got in the exit polls. this is the share that is noncollege white. the study done now since the election shows it was probably a lot higher, significantly higher than we thought it was on election day. you play that out. we thought noncollege white, a lot of them voted democratic, hadn't voted before, there was something about trump, maybe something with hillary clinton that got them to turn out. there may be more of them. >> a lot of things have changed since then, but so has media. politico did a story one year

ago, they measured all of the reporters in the country and found something really startling, between 2008 and 2016, the percentage of working reporters who lived in places that hillary clinton won by -- or the democrat won by 30 percentage points or more was like 32%. eight years later, it's 51%. reporters, they've been losing reporters in "newsroom"s, covering state houses, everyone is moving to new york. my neighborhood voted 92% to hillary clinton. i think i live outside the bubble but i live inside the bubble. so as we have -- as our culture is being created by people who live in massive bubbles. anything from outside of that has a pretty good betting chance to take advantage of a market inefficiency. so if you are representing a part of the country that is ignored or sneered at, you have a puncher's chance.

>> you spent time in pennsylvania. we know pennsylvania and its significance in 2016 and its significance going forward. i'm interested in what matt was talking about. but i think the culture, the media that folks absorb is different than a generation ago because more and more of the media is centered in the coastal areas and the local newspaper is going out of business, it's filled with wire copy and that's it. when you're on the ground out there in pennsylvania, what does that feel like? >> well, it's very true. the way it -- you know, it's saddest loss is coverage of har isburg, state capitals. a lot of the state capitals are under covered. in terms of the national campaigns and what we see in the midterms. these races are nationalized. so i was in the 18th district in

pennsylvania, which recently had the special election. and the media coverage is paid advertising. it's a barrage of advertising from outside groups. we'll see a ton of that in the midterm elections. that's the framework that the voters are hearing and they rejected that in southwest pennsylvania in the most recent special election. the democratic groups played it pretty cool. they did not put a lot of money into advertising in that election. so connor lamb, the democrat who won in an unlikely district was able to define himself without the spin and the framing of the national groups. so i think we're going to see a lot more of that, too. >> that's an interesting point, too, because there's this debate i've been watching and seeing within the democratic party. two questions, one whether to do some sort of major outreach to

these noncollege white working class voters we're talking about and if you're going to do it, how do you do it? some are saying it's a lost cause. and they're saying just before hillary clinton, be barack obama did enough to win pennsylvania, michigan. what is your sense within the democratic party about that challenge? is that something pick a new nominee in 2020 and the problem can take care of itself. >> i've reported a lot on this recently, trying to figure out what democratic candidates are advised to do in 2018. and they're encouraging democrats to show a willing nsz to work with trump, talk about how the economy is improving, encouraging them to talk about economic issues and health care.

i think we can continue to see them priorityizing publically when campaigning, working class issues. but i think one thing both republicans and democrats need to think about, when we're talking about the working class we're talking about white people. the working class looks like me, my dad, people from all different backgrounds and races, and when i talk to democratic aides on the hill they complain how they think the democratic party's largest problem is they're ignoring minority voters. so while they need to prioritize issues they need to think about how it encompasses all people not just white working class voters. >> that's the debate i've heard in the democratic party. do you double down on a straj f strategy of winning back noncollege whites or expand or is it one or the other. it's a discussion that's going

to keep going. match welch thank you for joining us. speculation about paul ryan and a potential exit for house speaker and who would replace him. plus i'm joined by congressman tom cole. we're back right after this. you totanobody's hurt, new car. but there will still be pain. it comes when your insurance company says they'll only pay three-quarters of what it takes to replace it. what are you supposed to do? drive three-quarters of a car? now if you had liberty mutual new car replacement™, you'd get your whole car back. i guess they don't want you driving around on three wheels. smart. with liberty mutual new car replacement™, we'll replace the full value of your car. liberty stands with you™.

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i'm joined now by republican congressman tom cole of oklahoma. congressman thanks for joining us. >> great to be with you. >> we interviewed one of your counter parts on the other side of the aisle about the democrats their effort to get the seats and the majority. let me start the same question i started with him. we have a new report on nbc news.com that republicans out there see hillary clinton as a weapon who's going to help them retain the house. they're using her in some of their campaign messaging. what does it say about a republican party that their best weapon in a political campaign would be somebody who ran for office two years ago and lost? >> i think you stress the themes you need to stress to win. but i don't see that as a

decisive element in the next election. i'd run more on the tax cuts, the deregulation of the economy, a lot more on the strength of the economy than looking in the rear view mirror of hillary clinton. >> ryan costello, they had a change in the redistricting in pennsylvania, he announcing that he's going to be leaving the house. here's what we said. >> it is very difficult, though, for what i would call your centrist republicans that i would be categorized as that. it is a challenging political environment to be sure. what i found is no matter how much you speak out, those who don't support the president, it's not going to be enough for them. and at that moment in time you get really pro-trump republicans bothered at you because you're not defending the president. >> he's basically saying you cannot -- as a republican right

now you cannot keep the pro-trump republican base happy and in his case win over enough swing voters in a suburban district like that to survive. is that true? >> i don't think so. i really regret losing him. he's a great member of congress. that's just frankly a situation where they redistricted his lines, i think he would have won his seat. but when you move it from an even seat to democrat plus nine in a challenging year he probably made a smart decision. i think you can speak to different elements in the coalition in different ways at different times. >> when you see the totality of the special elections in the last year and a half. the most recent one in pennsylvania, that was a big swing, trump won by 20, a democrat won the special election.

we've had a number of elections the democrats shaved 15, 20 points off the election that trump won by. if you look back to the state races, you've had scores that were away from the trump margin in 2016 toward the democrats. do you look at that and say there's a wave coming? >> yes. nobody's had a good off year election since 2002 so i think republicans would be well advised to get ready. foreign fortunately, i think we are. we have good candidates, a good committee. we have good things to run on because of what this congress and administration have accomplished. i think we're ready. the environment favors the party out of power just as it always does at every midterm. >> let me ask you about the news the president made today. he went on twitter this morning and talked about daca, he seemed

to suggest, not just suggest, but flat out say there's not going to be a daca deal. it's overwhelming popular, the idea of having the protections for the kids, no just democrats but republicans, too, if the president's posture is no daca deal, what does that do to the president's party? >> let's see. i think the president has laid out the most reasonable daca deal at all, which is not only doubling the size of the population, because he included people that weren't in the program but eligible. and he asked for reasonable reforms. border security, end of the visa lottery and chain migration. democrats had a week in the senate they couldn't put anything together that could tragic 60 votes. i think the president has put together more on this than his opponents.

>> but he's saying no. what does that mean? >> i've been suspicion that democrats want a deal. they love the immigration issue, don't like solving the problem much. that's the reality. it was true under president obama, i think it's true again. a lot of promises on immigration, president obama promised to have a bill within 100 days back in 2009, that never happened. again they're skilled at expl t exploiting the issue, not good at solving it. >> i want to ask you about the epa director, scott pruitt allegations he was renting out a condo from an energy lobbyist. you could see the potential conflict there. chris christie was saying this is a terrible problem, they don't know how he can survive it. should he resign? >> no. he's been an effective epa

administrator, i think he was right on the paris accords. it's my understanding he's not there anymore. this was a temporary arrangement while he was finding housing in d.c. the truth comes out in these matters and we'll see what happens. it's interesting to me the criticism seems to be things that are answer the gentle to his job. >> the reporting was he got favorable terms here. he himself was in a room in this condo, his daughter was also in it for a period, but he got favorable terms. that doesn't raise any alarm bells for you, in terms of maybe too cozy with the folks he's supposed to be regulating? >> i've known scott since he was a state senator in oklahoma. he's one of the most ethical people i know. i don't think this would have any impact on what he does in office. in d.c. you have to protect

yourself from got ya moments. do i have any doubts about his professionalism? i don't. he's a professional office holder. >> republican tom cole, thank you for taking a few minutes. >> thank you you can switch and save hassle. [vacuuming sound] and when you switch to esurance, you can save time, worry, hassle and yup, money. in fact, drivers who switched from geico to esurance saved hundreds. so you might want to think about pulling the ol' switcheroo. that's auto and home insurance for the modern world. esurance. an allstate company. click or call.

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"new york times" today about the kushners. this was a fascinating read. it was the story of not just jared but his father charles who went to brprison at the hand of chris kis tee. the kushner family thinks this is the ultimate redemption things not working out for them. there's heat for all of their business dealings. that's going to affect the kushners. the east coast based real estate empire under a fiscal and ethical cloud. shunned by investors who are afraid. the elder kushner saying there's nothing to see here. jeff mason, let me bring you back in on that. within the white house jared kushner, early on in the

administration, this was supposed to be the guy with the president's ear. there was some talk, about who was the moderating influence on the president, there was some talk that would be him. tell us about their world now a year and a half into the presidency. >> jared kushner was a key aide during the campaign and transition and seen that way when he first came into the white house as well. president trump talked him being the one person who could find a solution to middle east peace. now jared has lost his security clearance for reasons that haven't entiretily been explained. he's lost his influence on many issues. is still trying to maintain his roll on foreign policy, both in the middle east and relations with mexico. he's not that essentially person

as he was seen when he came in. >> thank you. we'll take a brief break from politics to talk about the final four. also some news about one that just happened. right back after this. you were crazy. but so began the year of me. i discovered the true meaning of paperless discounts... and the indescribable rush of saving drivers an average of $620. why does fear feel so good? i fell in love three times -- once with a woman, once with a country, and finally... with myself. -so, do you have anything to declare or not? -isn't that what i'm doing? -so, do you have anything to declare or not? dinner date...meetingd his parents dinner date. white smile? so i used crest. crest 3d white removes... ...95% of surface stains in just 3 days... ...for a whiter smile... that will win them over. crest. healthy, beautiful smiles for life.

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oh my god, we just left you hanging. that was supposed to be the -- you just missed it if you weren't watching. that was the women's national championship game for college basketball. just a couple of minutes ago. notre dame got the ball in the closing seconds, won the game on a buzzer beater. so your national champions for women's basketball for 2018, the notre dame fighting irish whom. would have thought the catholic school on easter sunday? of course they were going to win. they knocked off the bulldogs. they beat uconn, the ucla of this era of women's basketball. they beat them on friday night. quite a run for notre dame. of course this is final four weekend for women and men's college basketball game. the one coming tomorrow night, it's the men's bracket we can show you here. if we can get on this screen, there it. this is the is what you filled thought your office pool. and now it is all the way down. they started with 68.

they're down to two teams. it's going to be michigan and villanova tomorrow night. a couple of things we can tell you about those brackets you filled out. well, in the official one, the official ncaa one, 2.2 million people, 2.2 million entries were filled out. how many of them had this exact final four? 54 of them. 54 people got this exact final four. loyola is the one almost nobody had. 54 is .00002%. that's the number that got this final four. but how many had michigan playing villanova in the national title game? actually a lot. fairly a lot at least. 37,000. about 37,000 people from those 2.2 million picked this matchup tomorrow night. of that 37,000, 54% had villanova. so a little bit more people expecting villanova. we'll see what happens tomorrow night. i think we have the winning shot. we'll try to show it to you. >> for the win, good!

notre dame wins the national championship. >> i told you it was exciting. there you go. notre dame 2018 national champions in women's college basketball. when we return, what to watch for in the week ahead. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job

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and before we go, let's talk what you're watching in the week ahead. >> jobs report on friday. cuts are supposed to supercharge the economy.

we'll see if that's happening. >> okay. jeff mason? >> president trump is probably going to give a press conference on tuesday. we'll see if he gets asked some questions and finally answers about stormy daniels and other issues the last couple of weeks. >> alexei, how about you? >> i'm told paul manafort's hearing for his virginia court case is happening wednesday, april 4th. and his legal team just filed a motion to dismiss those charges. we'll see that. >> is a big question. >> i think we're going to hear a lot more about roseanne barr's tweets. it's been bubbling up on social media. she has been a promoter of the peacegate conspiracy. and the one she tweeted over the weekend they call it the storm, which is even crazier and even more insane that pizzagate. >> i'm watching too. i want to see what the ratings are week two. that was record shattering there the first time around. does that hold up? is there a drop-off there? and do we see the sort of geographic patterns that we were talking about? so i'm going to be talking about that. i'm going to thank all of my

guests for joining us tonight. really appreciate you taking the time on easter sunday that is going to do it for us. kasie hunt is going to be back with you next sunday night, 7:00 to 9:00 eastern. for now, though, good night from new york. i'm chris matthews. even as a roman catholic, i recognize that the selection of a pope is not without politics. with the resignation of pope benedict, the college of cardinals wanted someone who could bring the church back to the people. benedict was the theologian. it was time for a pontiff who was more a pastor. they found him in buenos aires in a bishop known for living simply and with the people. a man who you might meet in a poor neighborhood or even on the subway. after the sex and financial scandals, they wanted to bring the papacy to the people by selecting a pope already there.