thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. i want to express our thanks to the schaumburg center in harlem for hosting that special discussion as well as metropolitan interactive for their technical work on the special. that is our show. i'll see you back here live 6:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow. "hardball" with chris matthews starts now. >> mueller time. let's let's play "hardballplay " good evening. i'm chris matthews back in washington. new information delivered by the special counsel to the president's legal team is fueling intense speculation now about donald trump's legal exposure in the russian probe. according to a report late last night in the "washington post," special counsel robert mueller informed president trump's attorneys last month he is continuing to investigate the president. but does not consider him a criminal target at this point.

instead, mueller described trump as a subject of his investigation. as legal experts say, there can be a fine line however between a target and subject of an investigation. a target is at immediate risk of being indicted. i subject is someone whose conduct is colorliened investigation. saying trump is not a target makes sense for two potential reasons. one, robert mueller isn't ready to indict him or two, mueller doesn't believe he can indict a president while in office. it does not say he's not investigating trump either for purposes of triggering or supporting impeachment or for indicting hill as a criminal. this development contradicts the president's claim in january he's not under investigation. >> there's been no collusion. there's been no crime. and in theory, everything tells me i'm not under investigation. maybe hillary is, i don't know, but i'm not. >> the news that the president's not a target of the probe comes

amid the ongoing negotiations to get the president to testify before mueller's prosecutors. and it sparked new debate inside trump's inner circle. according to "washington post," the president and some of his allies seized on the special counsel's word that his risk of jeopardy is low. other advisers noted subjects of investigations can easily become indicted targets. and expressed concern the special prosecutor was baiting trump into an interview that could put the president in legal peril. as republican congressman trey gowdy warn this had morning, this news should not come as a relief to the president. >> so if you were his attorney, you would not say, you wouldn't have a sigh of relief? >> heavens no. i'll have a sigh of relief when the investigation is over. even then, maybe not. >> i'm joined by ken dilanian, robert costa, co-author of that story we just reported and political analyst and mika

eoyang, vice president national security program at third way and joy advance, msnbc contributor. start with a subjective view of trump. what's trump think, robert be? >> his camp's divided. the president wants to do the interview. he's telling his lawyers and officials he wants to sit down. a lot of people around the president are saying do not sit down with the special counsel. >> could this be a fly trap this whole thing. >> mueller is trying to get the president 0 sit down. >> you're not a target. come see me into it would be unethical for them to lie about that. they have an obligation to tell the truth. >> they're immediately ready to indict, but nobody claims that yet, do they. >> no, in fact, they don't have to tell them exactly what they have. if he was a target, they'd have to tell him. >> the mueller team wants to find out the president's intent on key decisions he made while president such as firing comey. >> mieke, you're here. >> i'm sorry. >> i want all the opinions here

about the first question which i raised initially. what's the president's mind-set now that he's told he's not a target? does that mean he's ready to go before the prosecutor and enjoy himself? >> i don't know he's red to do that. when he feels like he's a target or the investigation is getting closer to him, he gets antsy about wanting to fire mueller and he clings to any swrefd good news he canning to find comfort. >> well, said. let me go to joyce for the expertise on the legal question. it seems like trump is constantly an pandered to by his lawyers with au kinds of great news. this will be over by christmas, by next week. now he gets more reason. life's look can good. i'm not a target. >> that's interesting. we know this reporting comes to us not from the anybody on mueller's team. they've been completely quiet. this obviously comes from folks

on the president's side of the equation. you have to wonder if in is an effort by his team to continue to pander to him as they did by saying the investigation would be over at thanksgiving, end of the year, early this year. we don't really have any way of knowing for certain that this is what mueller's team believes. but it's likely that the president is not a target simply because of the long-standing legal tradition and policy at d.o.j. that a sitting president can't be indicted. trump is in a lose/lose situation. either he goes in and talks to mueller and exposes himself to risk or he doesn't go in and talk. there's a hev political cost to be paid. >> robert costa, what's your source snur you're not going to tell us. >> in the story we source it to people familiar with the discussions between mueller. >> that could be the prosecutors or the president's lawyers. >> i'm not making the kind of statement about sourcing she just made. >> interpret that. >> what i'm saying is we have talked to people familiar with these discussions.

we'll leave it there. >> let me ask about the way they interpret it. there's two ways to interpret the fact that the president is not a target right now. one is he's not a target. they don't have enough evidence to bring a case right now on collusion or obstruction or money laundering. the other interpretation is you can't indict a president. which way is this flowing right now? which of those two do they think is going on here? why weren't they targeted yet? >> they're told the mueller team is working on a report about the president's conduct. that means there could be something going to rod rosenstein at the department of justice that you could eventually go to congress. you don't want to get too far ahead of the process. they're working on a document. >> what do you think? you're reporting and other reporting at "the post" is that mueller is going to come out with a series of reports. >> correct. >> the first one will be the low hanging fruit of obstruction. >> possible obstruction, correct. >> then deliver those to

congress and would congress be expected to begin impeachment proceedings when it gets all the reports or the first one. >> trying to get the document out well ahead of the midterm election so it doesn't become politicized. they've done the whole process on the obstruction of justice. the russian interference part is ongoing and could take months if not a year or more. >> jerry nadler is a constitutional expert with 60 votes already for impeachment. balk black caucus memberses are already to do this thing. tell us how they'll receive the reports we now hear are coming from mueller. >> the problem with obstruction of justice, the krix intent. unless there's some shocking evidence that we haven't seen or heard about to date, it's going to be really difficult to prove that to the sufficiency that would rise to the level of impeachment. because so far, we've seen where he's asked for investigations, asked comey to drop the

investigation. >> i'm with you on that. you know if he fires comey, let me go back to joyce. we know he fired comey and tried to protect michael flynn with comey. it's all public now. if that's all they've got, then it opens the question was he obstructing justice in such a public way using his constitutional powers publicly. >> is that impeachable? >> and that's a good question. typically. >> and it's to you. >> obstruction. >> right now, it's to you. >> obstruction you can be charged with in criminal courts. but how congress deems an impeachable act is left up to their sound discretion. what we've seen so far from this congress, they have not been imprised with the publicly available information about the president's conduct. there's been no outrage. there's been no calls to bring the president to heel or hold him accountable. so the issue we'll have is whether mueller's report if it reaches congress through rosenstein's office, whether that will contain additional

facts that will sufficiently agitate this congress or a future one after the elections and cause them to take actionive against the president into well said. mieke, it's pending right now because if you figure the democrats pick up 40 seats if they have a good year and come in with a substantial majority over 218, that would allow a couple conservatives to not go with them but still get to 218. does it make sense they could impeach a president and take him to trial in the senate on just obstruction or do they need something collusion with working, conspiring with the russians. >> i don't think it's necessary the underlying is actually a crime. the last time we impeached a president it was about lying about something that was not a crime at all. so in the political realm, it's this question of what is the truthfulness of the president. can you trust him? is it he abusing his office in a way that loses him.

>> did you think the last impeachment was abusing the constitutional authority of the house of representatives? >> i do. >> let's talk about what lethally would look like an impeachable offense. >> not trying to cover up an affair but trying to prevent people from getting to the bottom of whether or not a hostile foreign power was trying to influence our election. that is a much more serious matter that goes to the heart of our democracy. >> the nixon case, nixon, we've never been able to prove that he called for the watergate break-in. i did a lot of the reporting on that, a lot of it. he ordered the break-in of the brookings institution, it's all on tape, the break oil in of the republican headquarters so he could say the democrats did it. his pattern was clear. >> and he ordered the cover-up. >> i know. but you want to be the hot hand here. is cover-up enough you? is obstruction enough? do you have to get this through the house of either party, do you you have to have evidence of participation in the conspiracy to work with the russians to get

elected president. >> with nixon you had him ordering agencies of the government to the quash an investigation. if we see proof of that, it could be enough. >> what has mueller done so far? so much of what this investigation has been done has been about lying to investigators. that's why the trump people are so anxious at this moment. they don't want the president sitting down. bob mueller is reaching out to them in a calm way saying i've just got to figure the intent. if the president makes one lie sitting there. >> it's called, what's it called, perjury baiting? according to "washington post," your paper, the president's privately expressed relief at the description of his legal status which increased his determination to agree to a special counsel interview. the people said. he has repeatedly told allies he's not a target and believes an interview will help him put the matter behind him, friends said. on multiple occasions since last june, president trump has said he's willing to testify under

oath. >> would you like to testify toe robert mueller, sir? >> thank you. >> you would? >> i would liking toing. > are you going to talk to mueller? >> i'm looking forward to it actually. >> you would do it under oath. >> i would do it under oath, absolutely. >> would you be willing to speak under oathing to give your version of. >> 100%. >> however, the president's lawyers expressed concern the president may be at risk of committing perjury as ty cobb said in january. >> and do you think there is any danger for the president in that encounter? >> you know, i would hope that a fair-minded office of special counsel would approach it inch a dutiful way consistent with precedent and it wouldn't be a mere perjury trap. >> thank you. joyce, you know, back in and i do remember all this watergate stuff. we were buffs of watergate back in the '70s.

a lot of those guy who's got in trouble, you may not like people like erlichman and haldeman and the rest but they didn't think they were criminals till they were informed by counsel you just obstructed the law, you were in violation and exposed, long time in prison for what you've already done. is it possible trump needs to be disabused of his innocence, you know, buddy, mr. president in, all due respect, you've been breaking the law here? does he need to know that before he testifies? >> you know, i don't think that that's where this president's conduct is. there's a reason people try to cover up for ar investigation. there's a reason people try to commit the crime of obstruction. and that's because they have something to hide. asking jim comey to go easy on his buddy, trying to cover up the real reason that the trump tower meeting was held in june of 2016 with russians, those are strong indish yab that the president had something here to hide. this interview is not a perjury trap. it's just a concern that he

there really is something thering there. >> well, said. you know what i've thought from early on? that trump sometime got the word about the time during the transition. there's something called the logan act. you're not allowed to negotiate with foreign powers when you're not in office. he began to get concerned, hey, i've been doing stuff like that and began to cover it up and worry about what flynn knew and what manafort and gates knew and began top babe in a way he obstructed justice because he is afraid he broke the logan act which hasn't been enforced since the flood under noah. when did this they ever enforce that law. could that explain his had behavior? >> it's possible. there was an orchestrated campaign to undermine obama's foreign policy with the russians and others. we need to realize here that the sad state of affairs we're in, this president has been under investigation we know about since last june. this isn't a new notion he's the subject of the investigation. he's relieved he's the target. chuck rosenberg said that's like

the difference between getting hit by a bus and a car. you could survive maybe a hit by a car being the subject. target you'll definitely be indicted. it's not troen celebrate. >> robert, are they afraid of having violated the law? >> my whole thing is listen to that, you can't speculate. he's got to report it out. report it out. we don't know. can't speculate. >> that's your job, keep it up. >> we will. >> great reporting. we're feeding off you all the time. the "washington post," "new york times" doing fabulous work. ken dilanian, joyce vance, and mieke joe yanks thank you for coming on tonight. president trump says no one's been tougher on russia than he has been. h. referring mcmaster taking a parting shot at the president saying he hasn't done enough to count ker the menace from moscow. he just did it. everybody tells the truth on their way out of office in this town. unbelievable. cheryl dent, corker, just say you're leaving. you might get truth out of these

guys plus, trump's trade war with china. it's going to hurt a lot of people in red states, places where the republican party need to win this november. maybe that's why the president's new economic adviser is already backing off the tariff trade. larry kudlow is aware of the trouble coming. trump's ginning up a crisis to shore up his political base meaning ann coulter. he's talking it about sending the military down to the border. finally, let me finish tonight with the courage of bobby kennedy 50 years ago when he had to tell al african-american audience independence indianapolis that happens reverend martin luther king had just been killed. what a moment in history. just moments ago bells were tolling, there they are, for dr. king. they rang 39 times each for the short years of his life.

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>> well, the white house released a statement today reiterating the administration's pledge to defeat isis over in syria. it comes one day after president trump signaled his desire to remove troops from syria. figure that one. >> as far as syria is concerned, our primary mission in terms of thaefrl was getting rid of isis. we've almost completed that task. i want to get out. i want to bring our troops back home. i want to start rebuilding our nation. so it's time. it's time. we were very successful against isis. we'll be successful against anybody militarily. but sometimes it's time to come back home. and we're thinking about that very seriously. >> i according to nbc news, president trump reluctantly agreed in a meeting with his national security team on tuesday to keep u.s. troops in

syria for an undetermined period of time with the goal of defeating isis. a senior administration official tells nbc that trump wasn't thrilled about it to say the least. defense secretary mattis and other top officials made the case the fight against isis was almost finished but pulling out now would pose too great a risk. he wants to pull them out, put them back in. what is it, no more stupid wars or more stupid wars? we'll be right back. [phone ringing]

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really? and these kids, and these guys, him, ah. oh hello. that lady, these houses! yes, yes and yes. and don't forget about them. uh huh, sure. still yes! xfinity delivers gig speed to more homes than anyone. now you can get it, too. welcome to the party. >> we want to be able to get along with russia. getting along with russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. now, maybe we will and maybe we won't. and probably nobody's been tougher to russia than donald trump. >> he's dancing, isn't he? that was president trump yesterday giving himself credit for being tough on russia, tough, him? a few hours later in his last public remarks, h.r. mcmaster that was pushed out seemed to offer a different message.

let's watch a very different tone everyone president trump and his outgoing adviser. >> we want to be able to get along with russia. getting along with russia is a good thing, not a bad thing. now, maybe we will and maybe we won't. and probably nobody's been tougher to russia than donald trump. >> russia brazenly and implausibly denies its actions. and we have failed to impose sufficient costs. >> nobody's been tougher on russia than i have. and you can -- and i know you're nodding yes because everyone agrees when they think about it. >> mr. putin might also then consider how the russian people's aspirations connect his own population to us. despite the kremlin's efforts to sow dissension abroad and repress freedom at home. >> i had a call with president putin and congratulated him on the victory, his electoral victory. >> we might all help.

putin understand his grave error. we might show him the beaches of normandy where lingering craters and bullet holes demonstrate the west's will to sacrifice to preserve our freedom. >> i think i could have a very good relationship with russia and with president putin and if i did, that would be a great thing and there's also a great possibility that that won't happen. who knows? >> for more, i'm joined by david corn from mother jones and author of the number one best seller in the country "russian roulette." and evelyn farkas, senior fellow an the atlantic council. both are msnbc contributors. i just made the wise guy comment the only way you get truth from people is on their way out the door. mcmaster saying we haven't done anything. it's not just tried to undermine

democracy and humiliate us in the world to bring to us their lousy level in terms of phony democracy but they're out there poimping people. in the yearbook you talk about how they put radioactive material in somebody's tea. they do it in our face. then we throw more kisses back at them and then trump says i've been tough on them. >> i hate the term intervention or meddling in our election. it was an attack. this was as information cyber warfare attack. so when donald trump says no one's been tough, as we talk about in the book, the first thing they did when he came into office was try to weaken the sanctions and they weren't even that stronging that obama imposed on putin for attacking us. so what message does that send? has donald trump said anything publicly critical of putin or this attack? no, what message does that send? we have you another election coming up. and in the book we talk about

something that wasn't given a lot of attention at the time. we focus how they attacked the presidential election and democratic congressional candidates. and they showed out easily they could influence those elections. so there's nothing tough and it's too bad mcmaster only now raises this issue now that he has no power to do anything. >> evelyn, i've just speen darkest hour" the fifth time. one thing churchill says was you don't win a fight against the bad guy when your head's in his mouth in the tiger's mouth. and here's trump trying to charm, charm. >> a tiger. >> how do you charm this guy. >> you don't charm a guy like putin and charm him after he's dumped all over us and tried to humiliate us before the world and has done lasting damage to our system. >> putin has basically started waging an undeclared war. what h.r. said yesterday at the atlantic council he said

starting in 2007 with the cyber attack estonia, 2008 when the russians invaded georgia, they're still there occupying 20% of the territory and on and on, we have now i think it's up to 16 attempted assassinations in the uk alone. then all the other things that the russians have done. they've all been under this threshold whereby we didn't feel like they merited military response or even frankly speaking a unified political response. >> they haven't really denied. >> it's not plausible but they deny. they deny every single time. >> not an act of war like pearl harbor. that's all. >> it's below the threshold. the other thing is that for those people for whom it's convenient to cooperate with russia because they very business dealings and those people it can include heads of state, they have the ability to deny because the russians are so vo sis russly denying it. >> trump's relationship with putin goes back years. in 2013, he tweeted do you think

putin will be going to the miss universe in moscow? if so, will he become my new best friend? what is this bromance sentence it's this i want to be best friends with -- if you take a look at putin, he's probably the last guy you want to be friends with. what's charming about that guy. >> one level it's explicable. when he was in miss universe we report in the book he was obsessed with the idea of meeting putin, of putin coming to the contest. he kept saying is he coming? i think there are two things here. one is he knew to do business and make money in moscow which he was trying to do you then and during the campaign, you can't do that without putin's approval. he flatters him for that. there's a psychological aspirational affinity that he has with him snipe shake your head. what's the psychological affinity between him and putin. >> likes the russian business culture. it's very macho.

>> riding around with your shirt off on a horse looking like mr. tough guy. >> i don't want to see him do that. i don't think that's the part. there is a pr aspect he understands very well. the tv, putin doesn't do that in private. he does it in front of the cameras. donald trump understands that perfectly. this guy speaks his language. the beautiful women. the machismo, the fake machismo. he likes that is in erdogan, due tear ta. in duterte it's pretty out thrust in terms of how dark it is. >> it means we've stepped over the most important thing. ever since world war ii the great powers, britain france, the united states, china have said we'll treat little countries as important. little countries like swaziland get to be in the u.n. we're not going to trample on countries anymore. he wants to go back to the age where the big tough guys push the skinny guys around on the playground. that's what putin wants.

does trump want that. >> that is this the problem. since donald trump has come into office before that on the campaign trail, he's been attacking the international system. all of the institutions that have made us safe since the end of the second world war. >> like nato. >> the u.n. >> like the snooun. >> doesn't like the european union either into but in this way, trump is helping beauty tin because putin's grand plan, we talk about this in the boom is undercut liberal western democracies and the whole notion of communal governmental global interaction. so putin's against that. so he doesn't want people to think that our democracies are legitimate here and in the eu. here comes trump kind of saying the same thing. why do you think putin wanted trump to get elected? it's pretty obvious. >> russian roulette. hell of a book. i love the cover. looks like a russian war poster. thank you. jared on the cover there. so strange. thank you, david corn, and thank you evelyn. we're going to need you a lot.

there's so much of this russian stuff. crapola. president is itching for a trade war with china. if he goes through with it, it will hurt the very people that sent him to the white house. that could spell trouble with republicans heading into the november elections this year. this is "hardball" where the action is. and respond 60 times faster. it lets you know where your data lives, down to the very server. it keeps your insights from prying eyes, so they're used by no one else but you. it is... the cloud. the ibm cloud. the cloud that's built for all your apps. ai ready. secure to the core. the ibm cloud is the cloud for smarter business.

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trump promised to hit china hard over their unfair trade practices. well, last night his administration delivered on that promise unveiling $50 billion in potential trade tariffs on chinese goods like televisions and aircraft parts and batteries. well, hours later, china retaliated proposing $50 billion worth in tariffs on u.s. goods like soybeans, beef and tobacco. those measure coz hurt the very states that sent trump to the white house. soybeans are our second largest export to china and are primarily grown in key states that voted for trump like iowa, missouri, indiana and ohio. the threat of a trade war poses a grave threat to the rural voters that backed president trump by a 26-point marge over hillary clinton. robbed leonard from rural iowa had this warning for president trump in the "new york times." if he thanks the rural economy, if he and his legacy are in deep trouble. i'm joined by former republican congressman everyone florida

dave jolly. i look at the numbers on the stock market which is a pretty crude measure but it tells you. it started under trump under 20,000 and rose up to 26,000 which is a very good year for him, not as good as obama. now it's down by 2,000. he's lost a third of what he gained in a matter of weeks. this trade thing is not helping his overall success rate. >> no, you're exactly right. we're seeing a couple different things. we're seeing donald trump's personality on full display, somebody who never contemplates second and third order effects. who often afternoon actions out of retribution. we're seeing increased volatility in the markets, the risk of prices going up of about 200,000 job laws based on moody's estimate. we're seeing the political fallout as you mentioned in very key states across the farm belt and rust belt. chris, you're talking about a

key primary state in iowa. you're talking about a swing state of ohio where he only won with 5%. president obama wonton twice as well. it's fully in play in the general election. >> this is an old argument i've lived with 40, 50 years. coming from pennsylvania, i know about the steel industry and its vulnerability. i always knew we could take on trade partners on this issue but there would be a terrible backfire. we would pay with the stuff we buy at the store, the clothing we buy, just basic stuff we buy a lot of it made cheaply in asia. we admit that. we would cost ourselves more than we gained. why didn't trump know there would be costs and consequences in what have -- one thing you have to give the chinese credit for, they know what they're doing. if we cost them $50 billion, they're going to slap $50 billion in tariffs on us within hours which is what they've done. >> sure. look, where they're outplaying

us, they're extracting an economic and political cost at large also within the republican. >> soy sauce and stuff, the chinese use a lot of soy in their foods. but the idea of knowing let's screw the iowa voters, were they that. >> reporter: the, of course. internally hitting kentucky with mitch mcconnell and wisconsin with paul ryan. donald trump still has the opportunity to pull back. they're hitting where it hurts. chris, i was on the hill during nafta and lived through the fallout. what donald trump is doing is he is moving the u.s. economy in a method that takes decades to see the full effect. i don't think what he's contemplated is the pain comes first. the disruption comes first. there is not time before 2020 for all the benefits to come in. nor is he showing clarity of leadership. if he was saying we are bringing back a steel industry in the u.s. and i'm putting my entire presidency behind it to create jobs in pennsylvania and the rust belt, he might be able to win this politically.

all he is seeing and communicating is the disruption we're about to live through. >> you've read the prince. you know machiavelli, sir. that's exactly the message. change does not sell immediately. it disrupts and hurts people who know how good it was before and don't like the new. you new hasn't given them benefits yet. david jolly. up next, president trump continues to fearmonger about the border saying democrats want illegal immigrants to pour into our clunt. is that what it's all about, stirring up the base and protecting his rear guard and worrying about ann coulter, the two words that explain most of this? you're watching "hardball." whene in the middle of the night. hold on dad... liberty did what? yeah, liberty mutual 24-hour roadside assistance helped him to fix his flat so he could get home safely. my dad says our insurance doesn't have that. don't worry - i know what a lug wrench is, dad. is this a lug wrench?

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we don't have laws. we have catch and release. you catch and then you immediately release. and people come back years later for a court case except they virtually never come back. >> welcome back to "hardball." for days now, president trump has seemed fixated on border security down on the southern border fanning fears about an army of illegal immigrants marching over our border. yesterday he added a new element to his tough talk. >> we have very bad laws for our border. and we are going to be doing some things. i've been speaking with general mattis. we'll do things militarily till we can have a wall and proper security, we're going to be guarding our border with the military. that's a big step. we really haven't done that before, certainly not very much before. >> president trump continued his rhetoric today writing on twitter our border laws are very weak while those of mexico and canada are very strong. congress must change this these obama eraen an other laws now! the democrats stand in our way.

they want people to pour into our country unchecked. crime. we will be taking strong action today. homeland security stkt kirstjen nielsen said the president instructed her department to work with the pentagon in deploying the national guard to the southwest border to assist the border patrol. she was asked if there were little considerations at work here. >> i think the president is frustrated. he has been very clear that he wants to secure our border. he's been very clear that he wants to do that in a bipartisan way with congress. i think what you're seeing is the president taking his job very seriously in terms of securing our border and doing everything we can without congress to do just that. >> but according to at least some inside the white house, that's only partially the case. that's coming up next with the "hardball" roundtable. lots of fol politics coming back. ♪ that's it? yeah. ♪ everybody two seconds! ♪ "dear sebastian,

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in the aisle - without starting any conversations- -or paying any upcharges. what can i say? control suits me. go national. go like a pro. welcome back to "hardball." the white house announced today that president trump will issue a proclamation to send national guard troops to the u.s. boarder with mexico. hope land security secretary kirstjen nielsen said the president is frustrated by the inbought to secure the border through legislation. there might be another consideration at play writing one advise said that the president has been concerned about his political base since he signed into law last month a spending bill that did not fund the wall or some other immigration plans.

he was carefully monitoring recent criticism particularly on fox news. national political reporter for "the boston globe." a former deputy press secretary for the dnc and john brabender, a republican strategist as we know. john. >> as we know? >> he what does that mean? >> sorry. >> i'm trying to point out your familiarity here. all positive. i think what got -- look, i collected the latest numbers on illegal immigration across the border. about 100,000 people escape or get past the border guard. it's gone down over years. n.o.w. not like it was about 600,000. basically small town coming in. why is all of a sudden trump going crazy. >> is it because ann coulter deliver add interview with "the new york times" and she basically warned him you're losing the base if you don't put that wall up? that wall she said. not something like it, not more

barbed wire, not more soldiers. the wall. >> let's be clear. first of all, we're all like my gosh, he's sending the national guard. i believe it was president obama who did that in 2010. there's a precedent for this and president bush i believe did it, as well. >> i know. what's their duty when they get there? what do them do with their rifles? they don't act like military people. >> this whole idea he's playing to the base i find amazing because first of all, he talked about this during the entire campaign. he won in states like wisconsin which hadn't voted for a republican for president since 1984. michigan and pennsylvania since 1988. >> what's your point? >> my point is we now the are seeing that the democrats are claiming his base evidently are democrats in wisconsin, michigan, ohio. >> i'm talking to the guy -- running for senator in pennsylvania on the immigration issue. >> working families in pennsylvania care a lot about this issue.

this president got elected because he's the first one in a long time with the resolve to do something about it. >> why did he buckle on the bill and the spending bill? let me go to a straight reporter here. why did he buckle? i know congressman and people like pelosi -- we know what all that was about. they've got to get out of town. why did he sign a bill without anything in the wall in it he could have said you guys can have daca, i'll take the wall. >> you saw the momentum for that bill. i think at that point trump wanted a win. that's what that was. remember the brinksmanship we have become used to with these budgets. finally in sight, there was this win. there's a lot of momentum for that. once you get the win and make the compromise, that's when you start seeing the blow back. this president doesn't always think two steps ahead. >> jose, give me your thoughts

on the whole question of the wall, the federal troops going down there now. i don't know what soldiers do with rifles. it's not about shooting guys. no american will go along with that. what are we talking about troops on the boarder? what's it mean. >> this is the reality. the national guard if they're being directed by the federal government they cannot do anything. it's a waste of time sunday the law. >> this is the law. it's a waste of money. the reality of the matter is that the president is upset because he's not getting money for wall first and foremost. mexico is not going to pay for it. the americans will pay for it if there's a ever a wall. a majority of americans don't want the wall. he's doing this for pure optics and wants to play to the base. this is the truth. >> his people want the wall. >> i just want the democrats to acknowledge his basin includes a lot of democrats in states like pennsylvania, michigan, ohio and wisconsin. do we agree we that he. >> i think he's going to use that in 2020 if he runs again. >> that's who won the election. you can't say that's not part of

his base. the second thing is, i'm finding it amazing that you're saying this was a terrible idea. where was everybody saying this was a terrible idea when president obama did it. >> there's no cry for it. that's the difference here. you haven't had republican governors and there are three of those border state governors are republican governors. there hasn't been a hue and cry for it. to chris's point, the immigration numbers have improved vastly under this president. >> why are they improving under the president do you think? >> because his rhetoric has been so do you have. >> if he shows action behind that rhetoric, they'll improve even more. >> the roundtable is sticking with us. this will be the negotiating discussing this 100 years from now, it's like the middle east. i hate politicians today. they never cut deals, never reach a compromise because they love the argument. they love the issue. i'm sorry on both sides. it's good politics and it's cheap labor. even some religions like to have it. up next, these three will tell

me something i don't know. i refer to every child as chief. this hat was free. what am i supposed to do, not wear it? next thing you know, i'm telling strangers defense wins championships. -well, it does. -right? why is the door open? are we trying to air condition the whole neighborhood? at least i bundled home and auto on an internet website, progressive.com. progressive can't save you from becoming your parents, but we can save you money when you bundle home and auto. i mean, why would i replace this? it's not broken. i mean, why would i replace this? no matter how much you clean, does your house still smell stuffy? that's because your home is filled with soft surfaces that trap odors and release them back into the room. so, try febreze fabric refresher. febreze finds odors trapped in fabrics and cleans them away as it dries. use febreze every time you tidy up to keep your whole house smelling fresh air clean.

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we're back with the "hardball" roundtable. annie, tell me something i don't know. >> i've been interested trump's poll numbers and his base. he has had good news in that regard. ras museton poll showed him having 50. >> do you believe rasmussen ever. >> when you look more closely at it, his hard-core support, people who like him strongly that number hasn't moved at all. so i think it's not as much good news's makes it out to be. >> he's holding on and wants to knock the head off the guy had runs against him. >> or the woman. >> jose. >> two quick points. there's presidential actions in mexico coming up july 1st. this whole anti-immigrant sentiment from the president will have a lot of implications coming up with the new president. >> can they win again. >> it's going to be a close call. >> conservative party. >> talking about the wall. instead of building a wall with mexico, why don't we build a cyber wall with russia.

>> what a politician you are. >> i'm taking a shot at john oliver. karen and charlotte pence, the daughter and wife of the vice president wrote a back called marlon bundo about the vice president thing. john oliver tried to steal it. their book is now outselling his and it's going to good causes fighting sex trafficking and helping it children with art sniper thank you, annie lynn ski, boston globe and jose and john braid bender. we'll be right back. ut i had age-related macular degeneration, amd, i wanted to fight back. my doctor and i came up with a plan. it includes preservision. only preservision areds 2 has the exact nutrient formula recommended by the national eye institute to help reduce the risk of progression of moderate to advanced amd backed by 15 years of clinical studies. that's why i fight. because it's my vision. preservision.

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let me finish tonight with this night in history. on april 4th is, 50 years ago this evening, new york senator robert kennedy campaigning for president was scheduled to address a rally in indianapolis. the rally was set for the broadway part of the city, a low income african-american neighborhood. as i read in bobby kennedy a raging spirit, the indianapolis police warned kennedy not to go into that area that night. they canceled the promised police escort for him because word had come from memphis that martin luther king had just been killed. knowing the possible danger and the tenderness of the moment, kennedy felt he still needed to go ahead. do they know? he asked the man standing with him on a flatbed truck? had the people he's about to address gotten the word? they hadn't. and so he began. >> i have some very sad news for

all of you and i think sad news for all of our fellow citizens. and people who love peace all over the world. and that is that martin luther king has shot and was killed tonight in memphis. for those of you who are black, and are tempted to be filled with hatred and mistrust, of the injustice of such an act, against all white people, i would only say that i can also feel in my own heart the same kind of feeling. i had a member of my family killed. but he was killed by a white man. but we have to make an effort in the united states. we have to make an effort to understand. to get beyond or go beyond these rather difficult times.

er. >> it took courage for kennedy to do what he did that night. just two months later, he would be gunned down also in a political crime, killed in a country where there's too much violence he and dr. king spent their public lives fighting to end end. that's "hardball" for now tonight, april 4th, 2018. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> they know what is coming. and it is devastating. >> new revelations about long-time trump adviser roger stone and possible collusion with wikileaks. plus, the special counsel still investigating president trump. >> we know what we did and what we didn't do. so none of this comes as much of a surprise. >> why the white house shouldn't take a victory lap over reports the president's not a criminal target. then. >> we take this seriously and we're looking into it and let you know when we finish. >> scott pruitt hemorrhaging support as ethics scandals envelope the