axios.com. i'm yasmin vossoughian, alongside louis burgdorf, "morning joe" starts now. we're going to make a decision on all of that in particular, syria will be making that decision very quickly. probably by the end of today. >> it's from the president of the united states a couple of minutes ago, russia vows to shoot down any and all missiles fired at syria. quote, get ready, russia, because they will be coming, nice and new and smart. >> we're still assessing the intelligence ourselves and our allies. >> the president has not laid out a timetable and still leaving a number of other options on the table. and we're still considering the number of those and a final decision on that front hasn't been made. >> the pentagon and white house pump the brakes on the president who said on monday he was nearing a decision on syria. and then on wednesday, he would launch a military attack. all signs still point to a u.s. counterstrike. but as "the new york times" notes, mr. trump's twitter

warning along with the delay in acting has given the syrians as well as the russian and iranian allies days to prepare. welcome to "morning joe," it's thursday, april 12th. with us, nbc news national political reporter heidi przybilla. republican communications strategist msnbc political contributor, rick tyler and in washington columnist and associate editor for the "washington post," david ignatius, along with nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of "kasie d.c." on msnbc, kasie hunt. looking at paul ryan's departure. retirement. among other stories we're talking about this morning. we know the president loves watching tv, joe, right? he loves it. he's always watching. he also likes to tell all the people what to watch. sort of hype it up, and preview things. so he did that. if they followed his advice and tuned in to the program he promoted, the president promoted on twitter yesterday, they would

have seen a full-throated takedown of robert mueller. so he teed it up for his i guess network. and his friend. plus, investigators are also seeking any of trump lawyer michael cohen's communications involving the infamous "access hollywood" tape. i wonder if there are more or what went on there? all with the backdrop of yesterday's big news, joe, about paul ryan. >> there's so much to talk about. you could talk obviously about the president telegraphing, broadcasting what his military plans were. the very things he said. that he would never do. when he was running for president. he criticized barack obama for doing that. you can talk about what happened on fox news last night. what the president was touting. it is, it's showing increasing desperation, really, sad sort of

pathetic isolationed state that the president finds himself in. that he is promoting a particular program that denigrated the men and women of the fbi that denigrated the very people who protected us through september 11th and the aftermath of september 11th. and made sure there wasn't another attack on american soil, coming from al qaeda. that attacking the same people that are protecting americans day in, day out. specifically because donald trump is under investigation right now. and i think it's very important just to look at how desperate, sad and pathetic the situation has gotten. you have steve bannon now coming in, trying to figure out how to attack military hero, former fbi director. a great american robert mueller. you have devin nunes going on fox news, talking about the

impeachment of christopher wray, fbi director, who is beyond reproach. and has been beyond reproach. they are increasingly desperate. and on top of that, a very eventful day. it's just so important to remember, by the way, we can't get distracted by that noise. because it only is noise. >> it is. >> and, you got only 12% of americans that support that view. that's about the same amount of americans that are opposed to increase background checks to keep military-style weapons out of the hands of terrorists. it's a very small percentage. 7 in 10 americans want robert muler to continue what he's doing. so that's really more of a distraction. but we do have paul ryan doing something that speakers just don't do. he's abandoning ship. as after the ship has hit an

iceberg. and the republican party appears to be going down to defeat. so that's big news. one other thing that we should talk about and consider this morning. robert mueller did not get involved in his investigation, in this investigation to end up like ken starr. starting with failed land deal and ending up with a relationship with an intern. we've been hearing a lot of things over the past 24 hours, that the raid against michael cohen was about stormy daniels or was about a playboy bunny or was about the "access hollywood" tape. that is highly unlikely. it's more about michael cohen, it's more about what michael cohen knows. and it's more about what michael cohen will lead this investigation to. and what leads the prosecutors in the southern district of new york to. but you know, i, chris hayes had it right last night, i think

we're going to look back on yesterday, as one of the more pivotal days in the trump presidency. things happened that are going to impact us. and we haven't even talked about syria. for sometime. >> really, willie, talk about let's go to the tweet desk and talk about the tweet. >> the president while you've been talking just tweeted this, if i wanted to fire robert muler in december as reported by the failing "new york times," i would have fired him. just more fake news from a biased newspaper. >> it's wonderful. >> in there, let's break that down, in there is, i would have fired him. >> saying he can. >> i have the right to fire him. which echoes what sarah sanders said from the podium two days ago, which is the president and the white house believes he has the legal ground, they've been told by some unknown, unnamed legal expert, that he has the legal ground to fire the special counsel. >> joe, actually -- joe, hold on

one second, i think the cohen probe at this point in terms of the raiding of his office and the "access hollywood" stuff, we can't get side-tracked by that. right now they have access to everything donald trump has done for decades. and the questions i think they're looking at is whether or not information was suppressed. and perhaps in an unlawful way. so he's angry, he's lashing out. he's promoting hannity, and then i think the tragedy of this is watching paul ryan leave, after doing a pretty poor job of standing up for what's right against a president who does not follow the rule of law, and is trying to undermine our democracy and i urge everybody, kasie hunt to read madeline albright's new book, "fascism." because as we've been saying for well over a year, this somehow

this starts. this is how all this type of thing starts. i'm still concerned as to why paul ryan is leaving almost with his tail between his legs. what happened during his tenure as speaker of the house, that made him incapable of standing up for what is right? >> mika, that's an interesting way of framing it. part of because i think the sense behind the scenes is that they believe they're doing more privately than, if he was out there publicly saying all of these things about the president and criticizing him, then he would be unable to help try and actually make a real difference behind the scenes. i think in the context, i think in the context of what you mentioned about madeleine albright, history is going to be a harsh judge of that decision. we'll have to see over time. but the reality is paul ryan was a man without a country. he was you know, once the rising star in a republican party that embraced his ideas.

his young family when he was the vice presidential nominee. and then, the base of the party elected donald trump. and while yes, ryan has forged a working relationship with president trump, these two men could not be more fundamentally different from a values perspective. if you think about it, paul ryan is leaving in part because of his family. he wants to spend some time with his young family. and there's truth in that. he is not you know somebody who is just saying that because there are other reasons, yes, there are obviously additional reasons why he might leave. that's a real thing for him. >> kasie, everybody, everybody would love to spend more time with their family. but while he was not, while he was speaker, the question is, why? why? every step of the way. and what exactly did they accomplish that was so worth it -- tax cuts package? >> that's what paul ryan would say, he would say tax cuts. this president is somebody who

is cavorting with porn stars and playboy bunnies and that is just not something that paul ryan understands at all. and at the end of the day, the frustrations and misery of doing that job as speaker, where you are confronted with this day after day, he just decided it was too much. and you, maybe absolutely right that history will judge him harshly for that. the thing that privately people would say is that he believed he needed to be the ballast in the ship of state. and he's decided he doesn't want to do that any more, i'm not sure who is going to step up and do it instead. >> the options are not good. joe, what are the options? >> well i don't see anybody that's going to do much more than paul ryan. and unfortunately, paul ryan's legacy is going, is not going to be tax cuts. paul ryan's lasting legacy among historians is going to show him to be a man who is, who is always a policy guy. who is more comfortable as

chairman of the ways and means committee. uncomfortable as speaker of the house. especially in these most trying times. where there was a storm gathering. he had an opportunity after charlotte to speak out. not only for those offended by donald trump and by the neo-nazi protests, but also for the republican party. for the party of lincoln. for the party of reconstruction. for the party of the 13th and the 14th amendment. for the party that was, that paul ryan believed should expand its horizons and start reaching out to others. but he didn't do that. he didn't speak out after donald trump tweeted out neo-nazi videos. he didn't speak out after donald trump attacked the entire continent of africa. and other countries for being predominantly black. time and time again, paul ryan had the opportunity to speak out, and time and time again, paul ryan decided that it was not his responsibility to do

that. as somebody that's known paul and liked him very much since he was 22 and wanted very much for him to be the speaker of the house, that remains a mystery to me. and always will remain a mystery to me. and i think to historians. what did edmund burke say, david ignatius, all that is required for evil to prevail is for good m men to do nothing. and too often, paul ryan did not answer the call of history. >> paul ryan's story is painful one. i was on capitol hill yesterday morning when the news came over people's phones that the announcement was coming. republicans even people who had been with paul ryan that morning in the house gym said they were surprised that it was coming now. in this way. as i look at paul ryan, you know him better than most people,

joe, just seems to me this was somebody never really wanted to be speaker. he was reluctant. he had seen what had happened to john boehner. he had seen the basic impossibility of controlling and containing a party that was imploding. he wasn't able to do it. he could never deal with the pressures of his own party. he likes to say his legacy is the tax bill. his legacy, i think will be the $1 trillion deficit we're going to have by 2020, according to the latest projections. what a strange thing for a fiscal conservative to have presided over this ballooning of spending and fiscal policy that most conservatives would reject. but from the beginning this was the reluctant speaker. couldn't deal with this president, he couldn't deal with his caucus. it's a saddeneding. just a final thought. in these remaining months, if he stays as speaker, will it be easier for him to speak out against efforts by trump to fire mueller for example?

will he now be able to act more in conscience? i would, i would assume so. but we'll watch that. >> david, as a conservative, i was deeply disturbed by george w. bush's spending habits. i was deeply disturbed by the massive expansion of medicare part d without funding that. by the record deficits by the record debts. and people like paul ryan said for years -- if you put us in charge again, we won't make the same mistakes. but for again, for small government conservatives like myself who believe paul ryan would be different, it's extraordinary to see the record spending and the record deficits. the complete lack of fiscal responsibility that paul ryan and mitch mcconnell and donald trump have shown over the past

year and a half. >> an insurgent has taken over the republican party, joe, and paul ryan is the latest victim of that insurgency. and i don't see the party being able to come back together for a good long while. i think the mid term elections are going to be very tough for republicans. >> heidi, the reason that paul ryan gave yesterday was to be with his family and i believe that's true. the more cynical view is that he sees a tidal wave coming this fall and he wants to get out of the way. we've seen right now the most congressional retirements since world war ii, save for 1992. republicans now out to defend 39 open seats, that's a long time until november. do you think that factored into his decision? he said it's absolutely not true. he said he believes that republicans will hold those seats and still control the house come november. do you believe, he said you know what, i want out of the way of this thing? >> i got to bridge to sell you if you believe option one. let's talk about option two.

i talked to someone who is a ryan confidante last night. he said they are absolutely devastated by the timing of this. it is not that they don't understand why ryan would want to bail out. but they don't understand why now. why? because this is going to devastate their chances in the house. for two reasons. one, fundraising. paul ryan is the cash cow. $54 million already in this cycle. he was hitting pavement hard every night. this person said what are the donors going to say in the corporate and pac world when a lame-duck speaker calls them up. his pac, the clf pac, was the pac that was bringing in all the money for the house this person says he thinks this is so devastating that some of these corporate donors could cut their losses and say you know what, the senate should be our priority. that's where we should put our money right now. and two, the issue that you mentioned, which is the retirements, already at a record number. you said 41, right? you know what that number was in 2010 with the democrats? 17. so we're talking about not just

a wave, but potential tsunami here if you're just looking at the retirements, this is a sign to additional vulnerable members who may be quivering in their boots. that this was a bailout. he was bailing out. you know, if he wanted to spend more time with his family he could have waited another six months to say you know what, guys, i'll be home to watch football with you. but this was, he saw a tidal wave coming. >> i'm sympathetic. i understand there may be something, a lot of times people have to leave for family reasons, i'm not trying to be blind to it but he didn't want this job. talked about his family from the get-go and how the job would be tough. but he took the job. and when he had the job, he said nothing. and rick, it wasn't, you know, policy disagreements that perhaps involved some give or take behind the scenes. we're talking about blatant racism. we're talking about a president undermining our, the balance of our democracy. and he had the podium, he had

the position, he had the voice to speak out against some basic things and never did and now leaves, saying nothing? i don't get it and i'm really disappointed. >> i think he will continue to say nothing. i think with paul ryan's attitude is, despite everything heidi said is true, it will hurt republicans' re-election chances. i believe paul ryan that his family. that's i believe that's -- it doesn't matter, the perception will be is that there's a blue wave coming and he's not going to be speaker the next time. it sort of represents the death of intellectual conservatism. i'll get to your point about speaking out, the alternatives to that, is in ryan's world, he watched donald trump take down 16 republican opponents and hillary clinton. everybody who engaged with donald trump publicly, starting with rick perry. who is now on his cabinet,

ironically, got shredded publicly. so the alternative is if ryan were to take on, i'm not saying he shouldn't have. it's a decisive strategy. that he would have to take on the president to right the course of the republican party, its ideology -- >> he would leave today with dignity. joe? >> mika, that just wasn't who paul ryan was. i can tell you now that i talked to him a couple of times and i said paul, you're dealing with a guy that only understands strength. you're dealing with a guy that only understands when you get in his face. you're dealing with a guy that does not respect, the positive qualities that you have, you've got to fight. his attitude was that's not who i am. i came here to pass legislation. i'm going to keep my head down and i'm going to pass that

legislation. again, it's a model that was ill-fitting for this time. just his personality was a personality that again was unmatched by the challenges to our constitution, to constitutional norms, to the rule of law, to the defending of the fbi. to the defending of the c.i.a. to the defending of our men -- our allies across the world. he just did not see that for whatever reason, as his job or his responsibility. and again, it remains a mystery to me, and i know that you're very, very frustrated by it as well. >> why are any of them there if they can't do this. it's pretty simple. it's just right and wrong. >> people are miserable. the job in congress, it's about answering for donald trump's every tweet. having a position on everything donald trump says. trying to stay by the side of

the republican president while maintaining your dignity has been a very difficult thing for people to do. >> so ryan is a policy wonk, right? he had this idea, he was happy being chairman of the budget committee. he wanted to work with the numbers. he had this idea over time if he could sell the american people on conservative economic solutions for prosperity, that let's give that a try. that's what he wanted to do. i remember his roadmap, a 60-year plan. >> this incredible poverty tour. but you got to lead. thanks for nothing. i mean, god. >> one more tweet as we go to commercial break. the tweeting around this time yesterday morning where the president said, get ready, russia, missiles will be on the way. he says this morning, never said when an attack on syria could take place, it could be very soon or not so soon at all in any event the united states under my administration has done a great job of ridding the region of isis. where is our thank you, america?

>> by the way, i, that is such -- let's keep that up on the screen for a minute. this is a guy who responds to cable news. who responds to hearing that he's made the same mistake that barack obama made. he immediately tweets something out. and the commander-in-chief is saying where is our thank you, america? instead of the commander-in-chief thanking the men and the women who put their lives on the line every day across the world? who have done an extraordinary job with the help of commanders in the field and generals, helping fight isis, but david ignatius, i know that has to be particularly frustrating to you, considering that you have been on the front lines of those men and women that were fighting

isis and david, the president is a fool if he believes that isis has been cleared out of that region. and the president is a fool if he believes isis won't come right back if he keeps announcing future military troop movements. >> it's good for him to recognize that the fight against isis is, has been waged courageously by the u.s. military and its allies. and in a sense take credit for that. rather than walking away from it as he sometimes is seen to be doing. the question that i'm looking at this morning, is whether in this delay, we were all expecting that by this morning, we would be talking about a missile strike on syria. in this delay, is secretary mattis talking with his russian counterparts or other u.s. conversations taking place that will put a kind of discipline on

assad that some cruise missiles clearly can't. that going forward will have some different understanding about what's permitable and what isn't. in syria. if that's the outcome. the whole episode does remind us of the truth of what teddy roosevelt said -- speak softly and carry a big stick. drop the bluster. everybody knows we're powerful. when you advertise it in a way that trump did, you just end up looking silly. if you decide perhaps for good reasons, to wait. >> mika, the fact that the president keeps making a fool of himself, on twitter, by first of all, talking about our big, beautiful missiles, whatever he said yesterday. and then this morning, saying, hey, world, thank me.

a guy sitting at 1600 pennsylvania avenue, for the work that the men and the women in the field did. i was reading your father's book yesterday, a book written about your father yesterday. and it is extraordinary. when you look the leaders. that he was surrounded by. from the time started studying in the 1950s. going to school, teaching. advising presidents. this sort of language, nobody, none of the great men of history of his day, none of the great women of their day, ever spoke like that. saying -- why, where is your, where is your thank you, to me? it's really, it's deplorable. >> it is. and on the world stage, this

president is humiliating america. no question. he's been doing it for months, but we're headed into a situation where he has humiliated the country on the world stage and he's going to hurt us. still ahead on "morning joe," who needs tv guide when they have potus, what president trump was promoting through his twitter page last night. it was one of his stooges doing a show that really helps the president. it's incredible. staggering. plus, russia reacts to the president's tweets about syria. we'll show you that. former defense secretary leon panetta and four-star admiral james tavridis break down this tense stand-off. ♪ this is a story about mail and packages. and it's also a story about people. people who rely on us every day to deliver their dreams

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if the mueller investigation has now morphed from looking at

russian collusion to an illegal campaign contribution by the presidents personal attorney if the president consider that to be the mueller investigation has strayed outside its initial mandate. >> the president has been clear he has a very deep concern of the direction that the special counsel and other investigations have taken. this investigation started off as russia collusion, of which there was none. it has been very clear that nothing has come up over the last year and the president has spoken at length on this topic. >> press secretary sarah huckabee sanders reacting to reports about the scope of the michael cohen search warrant done by federal prosecutors in coordination with special counsel robert mueller's team. earlier we mentioned president trump's tweet last night. he wrote big show tonight on seanhannity, 9:00 p.m. on fox news. if you took the president's advice and tuned in at 9:00 you would have seen hannity talk about the quote clinton crime family. and then the comey crime family.

but the real focus was on the mueller crime family. as he called it. throughout the show guests laced into the justice department, here's part of the conversation. >> james comey is a dirty cop. he is a completely dirty cop who was compromised from the very beginning. of the investigation and jeff sessions, now has an obligation to the president of the united states, to fire rod rosenstein after rosenstein authorized the unconstitutional and unprofessional search of the office of michael cohen. jeff sessions, tomorrow morning, should fire rod rosenstein. it is not up to the president to fire mr. rosenstein. it is mr. sessions' job and he has a duty to fire rod rosenstein. >> rod rosenstein has not done his job. he has not supervised mueller. this whole thing is an absurdity.

we've had one, paul manafort and his wife in their pajamas at 3:00 p.m., having the fbi break down the door. we have had, we've had the last week, cohen, the lawyer had the door taken off the hinges at 6:00 a.m. we're supposed to have the rule of law. it ain't the rule of law when they kick in your door at 3:00 p.m. and you're faced with armed men and you have no reason to be told you're going to have that kind of treatment. that's stalin, that's the gestapo in germany, that shouldn't be the american fbi. >> so, joe, if you saw any of the clips of the show, the crime family graphics were the bulletin board, sort of the way kerry mathison has on her wall in "homeland" when you're connecting the dots to figure out who the criminal is. straight lines from robert mueller to characters like whitey bolger beneath him, the long-time fbi informant and mob boss. bob mueller, whatever you want to say about him, this is not

taking a position on his investigation, is a man who served this country for his entire life, so to call him the head of a crime family, that's new territory. >> it's beneath contempt. sean hannity is a desperate, desperate man. desperately defending a desperate, desperate president. sean hannity has a show that shep smith and the rest of the news people at fox news consider to be a joke. they call it fake news, they call it entertainment and that's fine if people want to be entertained that way at night. people watch the kardashians, too. but when you have people at fox news saying that's not really news, that's entertainment, it is. it's trash, though, the fact that he is entertained and the fact that other people are entertained, by trashing a hero in vietnam, by trashing a man that's guided america, through 9/11, a man that's dedicated his

entire life to protecting americans at home and abroad, is beneath contempt. and it shows how desperate they all are. they know that seven out of ten americans say this investigation should be seen through to the end. that no man is above the law. only 12% of americans say in this investigation -- end this investigation. you look at joe -- i don't know how stupid he thinks americans are. but it's very insulting to fox viewers that joe di genova thinks viewers are such idiots that they think that james comey helped hillary clinton. james comey wrote the letter ten days before the election that elected donald trump. james comey and mccabe made public an investigation that the clinton foundation that helped elect donald trump. so i don't know how stupid they

think americans are. and it's the same thing with newt gingrich. i don't know exactly what newt gingrich is getting out of this. newt gingrich skips the vietnam war. robert mueller goes there and serves admirably. and newt gingrich is comparing a war hero and a man who is dedicated his entire life to protecting the u.s. constitution, to stalin? newt gingrich understands that we have a united states constitution, that we have a rule of law. that we have something called probable cause, that we have constitutional protections and if you talk to michael cohen. michael cohen will tell you that he was treated respectfully. he was treated well by the fbi agents. and yes, we will see, that everything they did was within the parameters of the united states constitution. now newt gingrich to shame

himself, for snut knute grich to disgrace himself, for newt gingrich to humiliate himself, for newt gingrich to lay waste to his legacy, by comparing a vietnam war hero, who is dedicated his entire life to protecting the u.s. constitution of americans. to compare bob mueller to joseph stalin, the most evil man of the 20th century? shows you how contemptible newt gingrich is as a man. and shows you how desperate he and everything else involved in this wretched exercise are, that now they understand that 70% of americans want the mueller investigation to be completed. they want to know what other russians are going to be indicted. want to know what other people inside the trump white house are going to be indicted. this is the sign of desperation.

and sadly, it is the sign of just how low people will go to denigrate themselves and forever sully their historical reputation by defending the indefensible. donald trump, mika, once again proves, that no one around him leaves without a sullied and tarnished reputation. >> you take that transcript, the last two minutes of what you said and you have a very good thesis for your column in the "washington post." very well done. >> listen to the content of the argument being made and the argument that donald trump knew was coming, because he promoted it. which means it's something that he probably shares, it was fire rod rosenstein, again and again and again. if you look past the bulletin boards, they were suggesting, not suggesting, they were saying you've got to fire rod rosenstein. which would be the way to get to bob mueller. if you cleared out rod rosenstein. >> they're telegraphing how they're going to make that case, by saying he could be a potential witness.

because he wrote the letter justifying comey's firing, therefore he's conflicted. >> i said on this program months ago this is an active campaign. the way you run a campaign you have to change public perception, they believe that they've got to change the public perception to undermine this investigation. so that when they do fire rod rosenstein -- look, i heard what joe said at the beginning of the show, about the starr investigation, i remember the starr investigation and i remember thinking there was going to be something there and there ended up being nothing there. right now, i have to look at, is right now, what we have is a, an affair with a porn star, and a playboy model and this is what the basis that's been reported of what these searches were conducted on. so which is analogous to an intern in a blue dress. and if that's it -- >> i think there might be more. but you know what, we'll wait and see. coming up "the washington post,"

robert costa joins us with his new reporting on steve bannon's plan to thwart the mueller investigation. plus we talk to david ignatius about syria. the president responding to his own tweets about military action with more tweets about military action. we're back in a moment.

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mr. secretary, for this most recent attack, have you seen evidence confident to -- >> we're still assessing the intelligence ourselves and our allies. we're still working on this. >> is the u.s. military ready right now to conduct a retaliatory strike? >> we stand ready to provide military optiones if they're appropriate as the president determined. >> defense secretary jim mattis speaking yesterday. meanwhile, russia is responding to the president's tweet yesterday. where he warned russia to quote get ready. because nice and new and smart missiles are heading to syria. on facebook a russian foreign ministry spokeswoman wrote that quote smart missiles should fly toward terrorists, not the legitimate government and implied the u.s. will use a strike to cover up a lack of

evidence. joe, this is a little bit what we were talking about yesterday morning. these tweets, as some republicans who sort of tried to mitt gad gait or defend donald trump's tweets birks saying they don't listen to them. that's impossible at this point. the tweets are being used to deflect whatever it is that's making him upset at the moment. that's a pattern that bakts up a fact in my opinion. and right now, he's using our country's national security as a way to deflect if his personal problems or his personal anger. and i at this point if i -- i don't imagine how secretary mattis can wake up to a tweet like that that he did not expect and be able to continue to do his job, without demanding that the president put the phone down and never tweet again or he is walking. >> well, i mean james mattis is a brave american. he's a loyal american.

like robert mueller. he spent his entire life dedicated to defending this country. and fighting to protect and defend the united states constitution. and the question is, mika, whether he thinks he can do that better in retirement. on the west coast and do that fighting the good fight, day in and day out and i think we're all very fortunate that he has chosen to stay in and fight the good fight day in and day out. but david ignatius, it certainly makes his job so much more difficult. because if you take away, if you take away all these tweets and let's pretend that donald trump was a traditional commander-in-chief and didn't tweet things out and didn't, didn't try to use strikes for his own personal reasons.

we would still be left in a situation where, where chemical attacks in syria assad's own people would demand an international response. so yes, there is going to be an international response at some point and that should surprise absolutely no one. including vladimir putin. and assad. so the question is, how does james mattis, how did john bolton make the best of this bad situation. >> i thought we saw a classic jim mattis in that little film clip that you showed earlier. mattis is saying exactly what you would want him to. we're looking at the intelligence. we're trying to make up our minds what the right action is. we're preparing options for the president. in all the time that mattis has been a commander, the one thing that's been consistent with him is if he starts an action, he wants to finish it.

the idea of a one-off quick punch so you can tweet about it. is the opposite of the way he's behaved. in a afghanistan, in iraq in every one of those command positions. i think you're right, joe, that these tweets make it hard for mattis to do his job in the way that he's supposed to as our secretary of defense. but what was striking to me in that clip is he's kind of ignoring the tweets. he's just going about his business, he's looking at the intelligence, he's talking with allies, he's thinking about what the right options are. he also, i want to underline this, there are continual conversations that take place between the u.s. and russian militaries to deconflict. they happen at multiple levels every day in this theater. because the theater is so crowded, it's so easy to make mistakes, i'm sure that conversations in the last few days have been going on. we don't know what they are. and i would assume that we're saying either you discipline

assad, you hold him accountable or we will and i think that's the right, in fact the right message to send. >> admiral john kirby, the state department spokesman for a couple of years said yesterday something to the effect of if you put even the substance of the president's tweet about russia to the side for a minute, it's the cavalier and careless way he talks about the use of force that most bothered admiral kirby. he said this is not a video game. many people will die if you make this decision. don't play with it so lightly. but when the president makes a statement like, the missiles are coming, they're new, they're fast, they're smart, they're on the way. how do you step back from that position? if mattis says it's not the right move at this time, if they don't attack syria, what are the implications of that, to have the president make a declaration and not deliver on it? >> then we go down the road that barack obama went down, very painfully. in effect, trump has drawn a red line on the use of chemical

weapons. he took action decisively a year ago and he generally got applauded for it. so whatever he does at the end of the crisis, he's going to have to be able to say -- i have taken steps, either through military action or some new agreement that disciplines assad, limits his frame of action that deals with this problem. otherwise he really has done the classic stepping back from the red line and it will hurt his credibility. >> all right. still ahead, former defense secretary leon panetta joins us here on set. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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it looks like the judiciary committee is planning to move ahead with a vote on legislation that would protect mueller. that committee is led by chuck grassley. they're looking at a vote later this month on a unified bipartisan bill so leadership still say nothing need to protect bob mueller so we don't need to schedule floor time but i am personally surprised by how aggressively they're moving it through the committee and i think the president should take note. >> kasie, thank you. still ahead on "morning joe," house speaker paul ryan says his retirement shouldn't affect the upcoming midterm elections but do other republicans agree? we'll ask gop congressman jim jordan and tom cole whether they think ryan's departure will hurt the party's chance of holding on to the house. plus, president trump was up early this morning tweeting that a strike on syria could come very soon or not so soon at all. we'll talk to former defense secretary leon panetta about the president's twitter diplomacy and the potential effect on u.s. foreign policy.

"morning joe" will be right back.

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so, try febreze fabric refresher. febreze finds odors trapped in fabrics and cleans them away as it dries. use febreze every time you tidy up to keep your whole house smelling fresh air clean. fabric refresher even works for clothes you want to wear another day. make febreze part of your clean routine for whole home freshness. we're on a mission to show drip coffee drinkers, it's time to wake up to keurig. wakey! wakey! rise and shine! oh my gosh! how are you? well watch this. i pop that in there. press brew. that's it. so rich. i love it. that's why you should be a keurig man! full-bodied. are you sure you're describing the coffee and not me? there was this tweet from the president promoting a show on fox news. when viewers tuned in, this is what the host, janine pirro said. "paul ryan needs to step down as speaker of the house."

>> a throwback this thursday to another time the president promoted a show on fox news and the host called for the speaker to step down. it's so painful. months later, paul ryan has announced his retirement. bob mueller, on the other hand, isn't going anywhere despite the president's public support for a tv program trying to undercut the russia investigation. welcome back to "morning joe." this is where we're at. it's thursday, april 12. with us, we have nbc news national political reporter heidi przybyla, republican communications strategist, now an msnbc political contributor, rick tyler, columnist and associate editor for the "washington post," david ignatius, and joining the conversation, political reporter for the "washington post," moderator of "washington week" on pbs and msnbc political analyst robert costa. and also, professor of history at tulane university, walter isaacson. bob costa, we'll start with you.

what's the latest from the white house? i understand the president's tweets came to the surprise of a lot of people and concern of members of his national security team but also promoting tv shows that promote his concerns about his own position as a president? are we at a point where we need to have a different discussion here? >> there's a new phrase, mika, that keeps coming up through the course of my reporting with trump insiders and confidantes and that's 26th floor. for people who know the president, that i know that means it's a reference to trump tower and how the president used to operate when he was a businessman, having everyone work to him, report to him, whether it's john bolton or larry kudlow or john kelly, it's the president at the center not working through protocols or a process but watching television, having meetings, making phone calls and making decisions by his own instincts rather than any regulated process. >> all right. and joe, of course, this is the

backdrop of the speaker of the house announcing that he's leaving. >> right. and i understand about the way donald trump ran business when he inherited hundreds of millions of dollars from his daddy and then had a lot of yes men around him and ran that $100 million, $200 million fortune that his daddy gave him into the ground and went billions of dollars into the red and went bankrupt. i understand that it felt good for him to be able to order people around, to denigrate people. what donald trump doesn't understand and what is going to cause him to be driven from office and possibly impeached and who knows, may possibly land him behind bars is the fact that he now does not have a bunch of

si psychofantic fools that let him l lie when he was living in new york city losing his daddy's $200 million inheritance. there are rules he has to live by that no one has ever had him live by. you have robert mueller, he's conducting an nation of laws and that's something donald trump doesn't understand. we have a justice department that is not donald trump's justice department, that is a justice department where men and women, professionals go day in and day out to protect and defend the constitution of the united states and to enforce the laws of this land. we have a federal bureau of investigations that will follow the law and we'll take it where it leads it and if people lie to fbi agents like donald trump

lied to people everyday of his life while at trump tower and while he continues to lie in a very public way, there will be consequences to that and donald trump just does not understand that. that had to be terribly frustrating, mika, to paul ryan. i know you're sorting through a lot of thing this is morning about paul ryan and why paul quit and i've expressed very clearly my disappointment in him but i've got to say this. of all of those character flaws that i just mentioned with donald trump, i saw none of those in paul ryan. i've known him since he was a 22-year-old staffer that worked for a group of us that came in in the 1994 election, say what you will about paul ryan, he may have remained quiet when he should have spoken out against donald trump but he is a man of personal good character, a solid

man, a solid father, a solid husband, a guy that you would want to be your neighbor, a guy that would want to be sitting next to you in church every sunday. he is a good man. he just -- mika, he perhaps just didn't see himself as the person who was to speak up to the president of the united states. but mika, i know you're frustrated about that. tell us about it. >> well, i think because of everything you just said. it's disappointing. we expected more from someone who's a good man, a solid guy who took the job for duty out of country. i wish he had done it on every level. joining us from capitol hill, a member of the house appropriations budget and rules committee, republican congressman tom cole of oklahoma, representative cole just announced his bid for reelection. so you're staying in. >> yeah, if i had known my leader was leaving i might have changed my mind but, you know,

yeah, i'm intending to run again. >> tell us what you think about paul ryan deciding to leave. >> well, it's going to be an enormous loss, no question. he's been a brilliant speaker. this is the guy that by the time he's 48 been a vice presidential nominee, the chairman of the budget committee, the chairman of ways and means committee and the speaker of the house. that's pretty extraordinary set of achievementments and it tells you what his colleagues thought about him so we'll miss him. but paul is typically paul. he tells you what he's going to do and why. he told us this is about his family. i have no doubt that's true. i've known them for many years. his wife is from my district so i think he's putting kids and family first, but hopefully after he has a chance to recharge his batteries when he's done -- and he won't be done until january of next year -- we'll see him again at some point in public life. i'm a huge admirer of paul ryan. >> congressman cole, willie geist, good to see you. you said half joking you might

have changed your mind if you'd known speaker ryan was going to leave. is there truth in that? if you waited a day, would your decision have been different? >> no, i made this decision some time ago and -- but, again, paul has been -- he's been here my entire career. i mean, he got here in his 20s, i got here in my 50s so he's a guy i've admired and had the chance to be on his committee for four years when he chaired budgets so i consider him a close friend and ally and he's somebody who represents what's best in the house of representatives and public life in america. >> speaker ryan said all the right things about what may or may not happen come november. a lot of predictions about democrats taking over the house, so many retirements in your caucus. what do you see coming in the fall? are you concerned as many republicans are? >> yeah, absolutely. look nobody has had a good midterm election since 2002, doesn't matter if you're a republican or democrat so anybody that thinks we're not facing a challenging environment

is just misstating the facts or doesn't understand them. but reality is we have about a 50-50 shot in my view of hanging on to the majority. the things we can control, we're in good shape. the candidates in the typical districts where you're going to win or lose this thing are really good. the committee -- campaign committee is excellent, it's going to be well funded. we have a lot to run on having gotten the tax bill through to repeal the individual mandate. a lot of deregulation and a rebuilding of the american military under way so you've got a case to make and you have the tools to make it but no question the other side is energized and the environment is going to be challenging. >> congressman, you, of course, are a small government conservative. the cbo put out a report a couple days ago that showed the tax bill you just referenced, the tax law and spending increases will send the deficit in this country to approach $1 trillion in 2019 and to exceed $1 trillion in 2020. how do you explain that to your supporters back home who share your small government

philosophy, blowing such a big hole in the deficit with that tax bill. >> i think that's a good point. i think the real question is when is somebody going to get serious about entitlement reform around here? i've got legislation that would start us down that road on social security, carry it with my friend the democrat john delaney. that's where you get serious. i'm not worried about democrats who didn't bother to worry about a $1.4 trillion deficit under obama but i am worried that we have a republican administration that's put forward nothing serious in the way of medicaid, medicare and social security. that's 60% of federal spending of all three programs. so until you get serious about that, you won't come close to balancing the budget. >> you will be, though, congressman, criticized in your campaign for voting for a bill that added to the deficit and brought it up to a trillion dollars. how do you answer that criticism? >> easily. almost all that additional spending, the majority of it is defense. you throw in veterans and homeland security you're up to

60% or 70% of the total package. so those are easy things to defend and in my case i've been on record in terms of entitlement reform for a long time. i've had legislation for a long time so didn't get the last president to work on that, haven't gotten this president to work on it. sort of pleased paul ryan has been touting this bill to the president that this is an idea models of the greenspan commission that put social security in the black back in the 1980s and we need to do that again so you deal with this one step at a time but don't sacrifice the defense of the country and frankly democrats got their pound of flesh, too, they got a lot of domestic spending because we needed their votes to get defense where it needs to be. >> david ignatius? >> congressman cole, i wanted to ask you, what are you hearing from your republican colleagues this week if anything about whether it's appropriate to take steps to protect special counsel mueller on the senate side

there's -- appears to be some movement by republicans in that direction. what about the house side? >> well, i think members have uniformly -- not universally but the vast majority have said they think mr. mueller needs to stay in his job and complete his investigation. that's the advice that's been offered publicly and privately to the president and i think that's where the majority of our conference stands, if there's nothing there then in the end the president will be vindicated. this has been going on a long time. haven't seen evidence of collusion so let's let the investigation go through. >> bob costa? >> congressman, let's talk about what everybody at the capitol is talking about, the leadership race. i'm looking for one name, if you had to vote for one name today to be the next speaker of the house who would it be? >> i don't have to do that today and i don't know who's running at. >> sir, one person you're looking at. >> let's wait and see how who

decides to run. >> mccarthy or scalise? >> they're great people but there's a texas delegation with 25 members. >> who from the texas delegation could emerge? >> there's 25 of them. i'll let them speak for themselves but i don't think we'll have a problem finding a leader. i think this is a leadership team that's performed well and we have a lot of talented people to conference so a long time between now and november. let's wait and see who decides to run. >> congressman tom cole, thank you very much. walter isaacson, we want to get your insight to two tweets from president trump this morning. he wrote "if i wanted to fire robert mueller in december as reported by the failing "new york times" i would have fired him. just more fake news from a biased newspaper. we were talking about syria and he followed up with the tweet, felt like a reaction, never said when an attack on syria would take place, it could be very soon or not so soon at all.

in any event, the united states under my administration has done a great job of ridding the region of isis. where is our thank you mechanic? i don't even know what to ask you, walter because i find this to be so -- >> let's start with the -- with something you've been talking about as it relates to the mueller investigation and relates to all of what donald trump has been doing and that's the fact that history teaches us there are two types of people that surround a leader -- those who are collaborationists, quiz lings, weak and won't stand up and just try to curry favor, the courtiers, and those who go down in history quite well who are willing to speak truth to power. and we can see a lot of collaborationists throughout history and they're not treated all that well. there are a few people standing up now in the senate. you've been talking about it quite a bit and so has joe which

is where are the republicans willing to stand up? so if a senator grassley and lindsey graham, maybe some others, say we're going to pass a bill to protect the integrity of an independent investigation, those are the people we don't have enough of right now. we're too surrounded by the quiz lings that want to curry favor with power and they ought to think how history will treat them. >> i have to say, trying to be careful with my words here because i find the events of the past 24 hours to be extremely disturbing and they feel dangerous. what do you make of a president who is pushing tv shows that push his agenda against a special counsel and putting mueller in the phraseology of being part of a crime family on one side of the day and the next

morning tweeting about syria and our potential war with syria and bringing in russia and iran? this has got to be staggering to the minds of foreign policy officials who are trying to cobble together and keep our strategic alliances intact. but i'm sorry, he does not seem balanced or fit to lead at all and i just wonder if there's anybody else who sees it this way. we have madeleine albright yesterday who put on our show her new book entitled "fascism, a warning" and she says it was a direct warning to the united stat states. >> if you look around the world now -- and madeleine albright knows it better than anybody, having been born in czechoslovakia -- and watch what's happening in hungary, for example, what's happening in country after country around the world, it's an authoritarian thuggish type of politics that

doesn't respect the press, that doesn't respect an independent judiciary, that doesn't respect independent investigations and they are not only being enabled by trump they are being led by the president of the united states who's moving the world a little bit more to the authoritarianism that is so very dangerous and that secretary albright writes about in her book which i notice has just become a huge best-seller for which congratulations to her. i think people who like that who are authoritarian and don't believe that the rules apply to them, to echo something joe said earlier, the only way they can be contained other than political system uprising against them is when there are people around them who are willing to be tough and play by the rules. usually presidents who are successful have very good chiefs of staff.

i was just reading about gerald ford, who was a very good president, and he had donald rumsfeld as chief of staff keeping things in order. same thing with george h.w. bush. same with ronald reagan who had jim baker and then donald regan, a little bit less successfully but this is something president trump is shedding himself of these advisers and finally you ask about syria. i think one of the people in the other bit of trump who is still doing a very good job whom i still respect a lot is secretary mattis. secretary mattis knows that if you're going to go into an operation against syria you've got to align your allies with it, you have to plan it well. he was meeting with the president for two or three hours yesterday afternoon and whether or not the president is tweeting all sorts of unhinged warnings, at least we see that this is being planned well i think with

our allies. so whatever retaliatory strike we do isn't done just out of the blue. >> bob costa, you've got a front page piece in the "washington post" that helps us connect the dots on some of the stories we've been talking about. we played the sean hannity clips from last night where he showed what he called the mueller crime family and had againsts on again and again saying rod rosenstein needs to be fired. you piece talks about steve bannon back in the mix on the outside of the white house advising the white house on how it ought to handle the mueller investigation. a plan coming from bannon that includes firing rod rosenstein. tell us about what you found. >> to really understand what's happening with this presidency we often talk about the president watching television, hearing from people like sean hannity, joe digenova about legal strategy and that's one part of it. the other part of it are the phone calls, the meetings, the different whispers from people in the president's inner circle

about what to do next with the special counsel and steve bannon through those back channels in recent days, i picked up through the course of my reporting in the last week, bannon has been urging people inside and outside of the white house around this president to fire rosenstein and bannon we thought had been banished back in january with the book "fire and fury" but he's been creeping back, hovering around the west wing, not talking directly to the president and his voice is like many voices on the right, urging the president to take dramatic action. >> robert costa, thank you very much. walter isaacson, thank you so much for your insight as well. at any moment now, american forces could be ordered to strike syria. former defense secretary leon panetta is standing by. he'll bring down the stakes of that conflict, particularly as it pertains to russia. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. shortcut, which was a bad idea. [cougar growling]

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whichever audience you're looking for, we'll find them we're the finders. we work here at comcast spotlight, and we have the best tools for getting your advertising message out there. anywhere, any way your audience watches. consider them found. we use our phones the same way these days. so why do we pay to have a phone connected when we're already paying for internet? shouldn't it all just be one thing? that's why xfinity mobile comes with your internet. you can get up to 5 lines of talk and text included at no extra cost. so all you pay for is data. see how you could save $400 or more a year. and get $200 back when you sign up for xfinity mobile and add a new line of unlimited. xfinity mobile. it's a new kind of network designed to save you money. click, call or visit an xfinity store today. joining us now, former secretary of defense and director of the cia under the

obama administration, leon panetta. it's great to have you on this morning. joe has the first question. we'll take it away. joe? >> mr. secretary, last week, of course, the president said he wanted out of syria, those were his exact words "i want out" when talking about our largely successful and sustainable attack plan, battle plan against isis in the region. was that a mistake for the president to telegraph that and could it have led to the attacks we saw earlier this week? >> well,i in think it was not something that the president should have said with regards to the status of american forces if we're going to be able to have some kind of the influence in syria -- and it is a chaotic situation -- it is important for the united states to have a presence there and to indicate

that we have a role to play. by saying what he said i think he may have sent a signal that somehow the united states would not care whatever happened in syria and i think that was dangerou dangerous. >> mr. secretary, do we have any -- is there any option for the united states to retreat from that region? even if we're talking about 2,000, 3,000 special forces there when we have iran, we have remnants of isis, syria, and, of course, the russians there. what would be the impact of a u.s. retreat? >> i think the fundamental problem is that the united states has never had a strategy. as a result of that, we've been somewhat ambivalent about how to handle that chaos.

so rather than developing that strategy, rather than trying to play a hole, role enforcing syr figure out some kind of political settle mement and allowing syrians to figure out their future, we have been hitting isis on the side talking about assad but don't have an overall strategy. and if we're going to strike syria, i don't think this ought to be a reflex action without a strategy. that's what this administration has to do is figure out what is our long-term strategy in syria going to be. >> so a follow up on that, why don't we have a strategy? >> we don't have a strategy because i think we were reacting to what was happening in syria and there was a fear that we didn't want to get entrapped by another middle eastern war. i understand that but at the same time the fact is once you say assad has to step down, once

you see that there are other forces at play in syria, the reality is the united states does have a national interest in what happens in syria because it relates to the overall status in the middle east. so for that reason we should have gopped a larger strategy building our alliances, building a diplomatic effort to try to force assad to step down and try to move to some kind of political resolution. >> so as former secretary of defense, you're steeped in the national security challenges that we face around the world. as former cia director, you have great knowledge, institutional knowledge, classified knowledge on protecting our democracy. with all that in sight, do you think this president is challenging our democracy, is a threat to our democracy, or what does his behavior say to you? and i can spell out the behavior

if you need me to, but i'm concerned on many levels. >> well, look -- >> i'd love a real answer. >> let's begin with the most important thing here which is when you're a commander-in-chief, the most serious responsibility you have is to decide whether or not we take military action. because that involves lives and it involves national security interests of the united states, normally under any other administration there would be a process where it would go through the national security council, options would be presented, defense secretary, secretary of state, others would have their input. they would present those options to the president and the president would decide what steps are going to be taken. what we have with this president is a president who doesn't operate by process but operates by instinct and gut reaction. and that makes it very unpredictable and as a result of that it is -- it's a dangerous moment because we don't know what the consequences of

whatever action that he takes are going to be. >> was that a yes? >> yes -- i mean, it's yes in a sthaebs this sense that this is a dangerous moment with this president who hasn't taken the time to think out what are the consequences of military action here? what is it going to mean for the united states? what is our long-term strategy? all of that requires thought, it requires consideration, it does not require a reflex action. >> the president's response, mr. secretary, to all of the criticism he's received over the last year and a half and the investigations about russia have been to attack the sources, whether it's us in the press, whether it's the fbi, or whether now it's bob mueller. we saw some of the conspiratorial theories that have been floated around certain segments of the media and sean hannity called bob mueller the head of a crime family, what is your reaction to that to a

man -- i assume you know bob mueller -- being called the head of a crime family and how do you think he's prosecuting this investigation? >> this is a country that has to operate by the rule of law, the president of the united states ought to be an individual that reflect reflects that he and his administration are going to abide by the rule of law. i think the job of the president is to deal with the crises facing this country and right now, what he does by virtue of these tweets is to generate crisis, to generate chaos. and rather than dealing with the problems he's facing -- which are significant, whether it's the economy or syria or trade or all of these other issues, that's what he ought to be focusing on. to focus on this issue of bob mueller and the investigation, focus on tearing people apart, i

think undermines his ability as president to be able to serve this country properly. >> we talked about john kelly, a man who worked for you, general john kelly, serving in a position you held under president clinton as chief of staff. to the extent you can share with us, how difficult is his job. >> and how much influence does he have at this point? >> well, i have a tremendous regard for john kelly, he was my military aide at the defense department and i found him to be somebody truly dedicated to this country and with a tremendous amount of respect for commanders in chief. he has tried to put a command in place, he has tried to put discipline in place but he's dealing with a principal that doesn't want to abide by that discipline. how can you be effective at developing policies for this country if you have a president that wakes up and starts tweeting about different issues? how can you possibly respond

effectively to setting some kind of strategy for this country when a president doesn't want to abide by any strategy or process. it makes it almost impossible. >> he's frustrated, fair to say? >> i have to believe he's a fairly frustrated guy but if i know john kelly, he'll keep fighting. he wants to do what's best for the country and he'll keep doing that as long as he can. >> david ignatius? >> mr. secretary, we had a bizarre situation this week in which the president was taunting nuclear-armed superpower russia with the threat of u.s. mills strikes in an almost playground way. a question i want to ask you is whether you think the danger of actual military conflict between the u.s. and russia is significant and, more broadly, when we're just hyper about anything that involves russia, what do you think the right path forward is for the u.s. and

russia? >> well, david, this is probably not a bad time. i know the president doesn't read much, but if he could read something, reading "the guns of august" about how we got into world war i might not be a bad read for him or his aides. because i think what happened there is there is an assumption that somehow we can deal with the problems in the world and the failure of leadership at that time resulted in bad judgments and bad consequences that led us into a war. i think that could happen here. this is a dangerous situation. there are risks involved with regards to what action is going to be taken but i think the most important thing for the president to decide is who what is -- and for the administration, what is the fundamental objective here. if the fundamental objective is to deal with syria and their use of chemical warfare then the objective has to be to make sure that assad never uses chemical

warfare again. that should be the objective. if that's the objective, it's a combination of using military capability plus diplomatic capability to try to force russia, china, others to come together and say what steps is assad going to take to ensure that he never uses chemical weapons again? that would require an inspection regime, it would require follow-up, it would require careful diplomatic strategies to make that happen. that should be the goal but i'm not sure a lot of thought has been given to that. >> and mr. secretary, in your mind, would that approach if it was possible be preferable to the wham, launch a missile and drop it on some airfield. would you rather see the former than the latter? >> let's not kid anybody. we have a lot of leverage right now in terms of potential of a military strike.

the question is whether you can use that lef reg to get to our objective which is an assad who will not use chemical weapons in the future. that was the mistake last year, we hit him and there was no follow-up and the result is we're facing the same situation now. if we hit him militarily now without any kind of strategy, what will happen is in a few months he'll do it again. so the goal here has to be to take steps to say we will use military action if we do not get the kind of response that we want that will guarantee this will never happen again. this is a good moment to use diplomatic capability. i'm not sure whether this administration has that capability right now. we're focusing on the military side, i'm not sure how much we're focusing on the diplomatic side. that's what bothers me. >> yikes, heidi? >> you're focusing on diplomacy

but the reporting is there are forces within the white house and within congress pushing for something more than a pinprick strike, pushing for massive follow-up, maybe even manned aircraft. this is the time to drill down on this. can you speak about the specific consequences of that being potentially even more dangerous for us a than iraq was because you have major world powers embedded in there in iran and in russia and we've just told the ayatollah and putin and assad that we may strike meaning that they're martialing all of their defenses. >> my concern is that the long they are goes on the riskier it gets. we indicated we were going to strike. it's taken a number of days to move toward song kind of potential strike. in the meantime, i'm sure the russians, iranians and syrians have taken steps to protect their targets and have developed ways to respond to a u.s.

attack. it's made it riskier right now so what has to be done now is not to back away. to continue our military planning, to continue to look at what target wes might be able to hit but to use that as leverage to try to force these countries to put pressure on assad, to step away from chemical warfare and make clear that it can not happen again and we have to be assured that syria will never do this again. that's the tricky part here. i'm not saying that's easy but that's what needs to be done for the sake of establishing some kind of peaceful solution here to what otherwise could be a very dangerous and escalating conflict. >> former secretary of defense leon panetta. thank you very much. >> thanks. coming up, catch and kill. another story of someone with potential dirt of donald trump being paid to keep quiet.

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41 past the hour. a new report overnight links donald trump's attorney another

payout involving a salacious claim about the president. as federal investigators look into efforts to suppress damaging information during the campaign. the a.p. reports that the parent company of the "national enquirer" paid $30,000 to a former doorman at a trump property in late november, 2015. this was in late november, 2015, in exchange for signing over the rights in perpetuity to a rumor he said he had heard about trump's sex life. the a.p. reports that the woman at the center of the rumor denied it emphatically and the a.p. found no evidence supporting the story and has not been able to determine if the rumor is true. despite publishing all manners of rumors about other candidates, the "enquirer's" top editor told the a.p. that the information they paid for lacked credibility and they spiked the story and released the doorman from the contract -- until publishing his claims at a

sister outlet yesterday. and another wrinkle in this new nation nation"national enquirer" payou the president's long time attorney michael cohen acknowledged to the a.p. that he had discussed the doorman's allegations with the magazine when the tabloid was working on it. he said he was acting as a trump spokesman and denied knowing anything beforehand about the payment. cohen was in contact with "national enquirer" executives as they paid $150,000 to acquire and then spike the story of former playboy model karen mcdougal who claims to have had an affair with the president. cohen's communications about the payment to mcdougal and a separate payment to stormy daniels were part of monday's search warrant involving cohen according to multiple people familiar with it. investigators are also seeking any of cohen's communications involving the access hollywood tape in which trump bragged that

he could kiss and grope women. a source said the warrant included any communications between cohen and the president about that tape. and all of that brings us to the new issue of "time" magazine. that is next on "morning joe."

welcome back to "morning joe." mika, you know who is concerned about you this morning? >> who is that? >> our dear friend nicolle wallace. her young son liam is worried about you. nicolle tweets "my six-year-old is watching "morning joe" and help just said morning mika is worried." are you worried, mika? >> liam, it's going to be okay but i think you should have this school and we'll have this conversation among adults, everything will be just fine. >> liam is a good man. go to school, liam. >> joining us now, "time"

magazine's bureau chief massimo calabrese. brian bennett writes this "there are multiple dangers for trump. were more than a decade cohen handled matters large and small for the free wheeling businessman and cohen was helping him make his deals the. mere fact that the fbi seized communications between trump and cohen should be concerning to both men. trump was already facing a daunting challenge from the mueller investigation and cohen opens an entirely new front and each could spawn further probes as investigators armed with court-ordered warrants dig deeper into a world trump considers private. massimo, good morning. it's good to see you. there's been talk of reports that the fbi in the southern district of new york were pursuing wire fraud, bank fraud, perhaps campaign finance violations against michael cohen. there's talk they were looking into the "access hollywood" tape and potential payoffs to some of the women who have accused donald trump of having affairs and silencing them.

what is the biggest risk posed by these pursuits of michael cohen and his connection to the president? >> i think it's not so much what is the biggest risk, it's how many of the risks are there it's extraordinary and i think this week it's worth stepping back and underscoring the fact that the bureau of investigation raided the home and offices of the personal lawyer of the president. that doesn't normally happen and the possibilities for the president and the country coming out of that are really pretty striking. if anybody had the idea that the scandals already vexing this president were going to go away, this puts the light to that. if anything, they are going to get broader and more numerous. this is going to become an increasing problem for the president and puts into context the discussion of firing mueller and other people at the justice

department. law enforcement and justice institutions in the united states are vast and dedicated to men and women upholding the law. they are going to be pursued. more facts are going to come to light. this is not a problem going away for the president. >> the most obvious problem, cohen admitted to the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels, he took out a home equity loan and did it weeks before the election day to silence stormy daniels, who alleges an affair with donald trump. they are probably looking into e-mails, documents that might exist, call logs that could show, perhaps, that the president of the united states, then candidate republican nominee directed cohen to make that payment to save his election chances. >> there are all sorts of threads. we don't want to get too speculative, but it's a mere

certainty that there was evidence of some kind of crime in the documents that the fbi were seeking to obtain from the home and offices of the president's personal lawyer, otherwise, they would not have been granted a warrant to search those premises. so, what we can say is there's evidence of a crime somewhere in those documents that were in the possession of the president's personal lawyer, now in the possession of personal law enforcement. as a broader matter, just stepping back, again, the context in which all of this unfolded, that scene on monday night where the president calls to discuss syria, then veers off into the discussion about the raid on his personal lawyers offices, it does show the broader issue that there are multiple crises to test this president, not just on the

personal front, but on the national and the international front and in some ways, we really haven't gotten to that part of this presidency, yet. there are many thing that is can happen in the world that can prove challenging. to have him preoccupied in the middle of that with all the scandals, that moment on monday encapsulated where we are and, frankly, a troubled presidency and historic week. >> rick? >> massimo, the president is, you said it's going to be ever expanding. if it's just about these two women he had an affair with, is there any indication about what else the investigators would have found in michael cohen's data or whatever they seized? >> so, i think one of the lessons, so far, in the ongoing

tension between law enforcement and the president, so far it's largely grayed out at the request of special counsel robert mueller. one of the lessons has been, there's a lot of political noise around the activity, but, ultimately, where we really get significant or meaningful progress is when law enforcement does its job and puts a facttual document on the table. the key moments, so far, is when mueller has come out with an indictment charge, plea agreement, those documents have been fulsome, detailed and when put on the table changed the political discussion, whether it's been about russia's interference that immediately became unassailable once mueller put the indictment of the 13

russians on the table or the fact of some contacts between the trump campaign and the russians, which became unassailable once manafort was charged. we want to be careful not to get ahead of the facts law enforcement may have but not know about. >> the new issue of "time" magazine is titled, stormy. massimo, thank you so much. still ahead, president trump tweets an attack on syria could be very soon or not soon at all. admiral james weighs in on that and paul ryan's retirement. the president urges 50 million twitter followers to watch a show that bashes robert mueller and taps down reports he wants to fire the special counsel.

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and always working to be better. ♪ ♪ ♪ raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens ♪ ♪ bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens ♪ ♪ brown paper packages tied up with strings ♪ ♪ these are a few of my favorite things ♪ ♪ ♪ going to make a decision on all of that. in particular, syria. we'll be making the decision quickly, by the end of today. >> that's from the president of the united states this morning. quote, get ready, russia, they will be coming, nice and new and smart. >> we are still assessing the

intelligence ourselves and our allies. we are working on this. >> the president has not laid out a timetable and still leaving a number of other options on the table and we are still considering a number of those. a final decision hasn't been made. >> hmm. the pentagon and white house pump the brakes on the president who said on monday he was nearing a decision on syria, then on wednesday, he would launch a military attack. all signs still point to a u.s. counter strike. but, as "the new york times" notes, mr. trump's twitter warning along with the delay enacting has given the syrians, russians and iranian allies days to prepare. welcome to "morning joe," it's thursday, april 12th. with us, we have nbc news national political reporter, heidi, republican communications strategist, msnbc political contributor, rick tyler and editor for "the washington

post," david ignatius along with host of kcgc on msnbc, casey hunt, looking at paul ryan's departure, retirement. among other stories we are talking about this morning, we know the president loves watching tv, joe, right? he loves it. >> right. >> he's always watching. he also likes to tell other people what to watch, hype it up and preview things, so he did that. if they followed his advice and tuned into the program, the president promoted on twitter yesterday, they would have seen a full throated takedown of robert mueller. so, he teed it up for his, i guess network, his friend. plus, investigators are seeking any of trump lawyer michael cohen's communications involving the infamous "access hollywood" tape. i wonder if there are more or what went on there, all with the backdrop of yesterday's big

news, joe, about paul ryan. >> i mean, there's so much to talk about. you could talk, obviously, about the president telegraphing, broadcasting what his military plans were. the very things he said he would never do when he was running for president, he criticized barack obama for doing that. he can talk about what happened on fox news last night, what the president was promoting. it is -- it is showing increasing desperation, it really is sad, sort of pathetic isolated state the president finds himself in, that he is promoting a particular program that denigrated the men and women of the fbi, that denigrated the very people who protected us through september 11th and the aftermath of september 11th and made sure there wasn't another attack on american soil coming from al

qaeda. attacking the same people that are protecting americans day in and day out, specifically because donald trump is under investigation right now. i think it's very important just to look at how desperate, sad and pathetic the situation has gotten. you have steve bannon coming in, trying to figure out how to attack, military hero, former fbi director, a great american robert mueller. you have devin nunes going on fox news talking about the impreachment of christopher rey, the fbi director who is beyond reproach and has been beyond reproach. they are increasingly desperate and, on top of that, a very eventful day. it's so important to remember, by the way, we can't get distracted by that noise because it only is noise z. >> it is.

>> you have only 12% of americans that support that view. that's about the same amount of americans that are opposed to increased background checks to keep military-style weapons out of the hands of terrorists. it's a very small percentage, 7-10 americans want robert mueller to continue what he's doing. that's really more of a distraction. we have paul ryan doing something that speakers just don't do. he's abandoning ship after the ship hit an iceberg and the republican party appears to be going down. that's big news. one other thing, mika, we should talk about and consider this morning, robert mueller did not get involved in his investigation, in this investigation to end up like ken star, starting with a failed and ending up with a relationship with an intern.

we have been hearing that the raid against michael cohen was about stormy daniels or about a playboy bunny or about the "access hollywood" tape. that is -- that is highly unlikely. it's more about michael cohen. it's more about what michael cohen knows and more about what michael cohen will lead this investigation to and what leads the prosecutes in the southern district of new york to. you know, chris hayes had it right last night. i think we are going look back on yesterday as one of the more pivotal days of the trump presidency. things happened that are going to impact us and we haven't talked about syria for some time. >> yeah. >> really, willy talked about, let's go to the tweet desk and talk about the tweet. >> yeah, the president tweeted this, quote, if i wanted to fire

robert mueller in december as reported by the failing new york times, i would have fired him. more fake news from a bias newspaper. >> wonderful. >> in there, let's break that down. in there is, i would say have fired him. >> saying he can. >> i can fire him. i have the right to fire him. it echoes what sarah sanders said in the briefing room two days ago. the president and the white house believe he has the legal ground, they have been told by an unnamed legal expert he has the legal ground to fire the special counsel. >> joe, actually -- hold on a second. >> go ahead. >> i think the cohen probe, at this point, in terms of the raiding of his office and the "access hollywood" stuff, we can't get sidetracked by that. right now, they have access to everything donald trump has done for decades and the questions i think they are looking at is whether or not information was suppressed and perhaps in an

unlawful way. so, he's angry. he's lashing out. he's promoting hannity and the tragedy of this is watching paul ryan leave after doing a pretty poor job of standing up for what's right against a president who does not follow the rule of law and is trying to undermine our democracy and i urge everybody, casey hunt, to read madeleine albrights book "fascism." as we have been saying for well over a year, this is how it starts. this is how all this type of thing starts. i'm still confused as to why paul ryan is leaving almost with his tail between his legs. what happened during his tenure as speaker of the house that made him incapable of standing up for what is right? >> mika, it has an interesting way of phrasing it. i think the sense behind the scenes is that -- well, no, it's

that they believe they are doing more privately than if he was out there publicly saying all these things about the president and criticizing him, he would be unable to help try and actually make a difference behind the scenes. i think in the context of what you mentioned, history is going to be a harsh judge of that decision. you know, we'll have to see over time, but the reality is, paul ryan is a man without a country. he was once the rising star in a republican party that embraced his ideas, his young family, when he was the vice president nominee. then, the base of the party elected donald trump and while yes, ryan has forged a working relationship with president trump, these two men could not be more fundamentally different from a values perspective. if you think about it, paul ryan is leaving, in part, because of his family. he wants to spend time with his young family. there's truth in that.

he is not, you know, somebody saying that because there are other reasons. yes, there are additional reasons why he might leave, but that is a real thing from him. >> casey, everybody would love to spend more time with their family. while he was not, while he was speaker, the question is why? why? every step of the way. what exactly did they accomplish that was so worth it? tax cut package? i don't think so. >> that's what paul ryan would say, tax cuts. what i was going to say is this president is going with porn stars and playboy bunnies. that's not something paul ryan understands at all. at the end of the day, the frustrations and misery of doing that job as speaker where you are confronted with this day after day, he decided it was too much. you may be right that history will judge him harshly for that. the thing that privately people would say is he believed he

needed to be the ballist in the ship of state and he doesn't want to do that anymore. i'm not sure who is going to step up and do that. >> oh, the options are not good. joe, what are the options? >> well, i don't see anybody that is going to do much more than paul ryan. unfortunately, paul ryan's legacy is going -- it's not going to be tax cuts. paul ryan's lasting legacy among historians is going to show him to be a man who is always a policy guy, more comfortable as chairman of the ways and means committee, uncomfortable as speaker of the house, especially in trying times where there was a storm gathering. he had on opportunity after charlotte to speak out, not only by those offended by donald trump and the neo-nazi protests, the party of lincoln, the party of reconstruction, the party of the 13th and 14th amendment.

for the party that was supposed -- that paul ryan believed should expand and reach out to others. but he didn't do that. he didn't speak out after donald trump tweeted neo-nazi videos. he didn't speak out after donald trump attacked the continent of africa and other countries for being predominantly black. time and time again, paul ryan had the chance to speak out and time and time again, paul ryan decided it was not his responsibility to do that. as somebody that's known paul and liked him very much since he was 22 and very much wanted him to be the speaker of the house, that remains a mystery to me and always will remain a mystery to me. i think the historians, you know, what did edmond burke say, david ignatius, all that is

required for evil to prevail is good men to do nothing and too often, paul ryan did not answer the call of history. >> paul ryan's story is a painful one. i was on capitol hill when the news came over people's phones that the announcement was coming. republicans, even people that had been with paul ryan that morning in the house said they were surprised it was coming now, in this way. as i look at paul ryan, you know him better than most people, joe. it seems this was somebody who never wanted to be speaker, he was reluctant, he saw what happened to john boehner and the basic impossibility of controlling and containing a party that was imploding. he wasn't able to do it. he could never deal with the pressures of his own party. he likes to say his legacy is the tax bill. really, his legacy, i think, will be the trillion dollar deficit we are going to have by

2020 according to the latest projections. a strange thing for a fiscal conservative to preside over this ballooning of spending and fiscal policy that most conservatives would reject. from the beginning, this was the reluctant speaker, he couldn't deal with his president or caucus. it's a sad ending. a final thought, in these remaining months, if he stays as speaker, will it be easier to speak out against efforts by trump to fire mueller, for example? will he now be able to act more in conscience? i would assume so, but we'll watch that. >> that is a good place to start with our upcoming guest, conservative congressman jim jordan joins us live. we'll get his thoughts on deficit spending and the gop. first, it doesn't get much more blatant than this, the president points supportered to a tv

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if the mueller investigation morphed from looking at russian collusion to an illegal campaign contribution by the president's personal attorney is the president consider that to be the investigation that strayed outside the initial mandate? >> the president has been clear he has a deep concern about the direction of the special counsel and other investigations have taken. this investigation started off as russia collusion, of which there was none, it has been very clear nothing has come up over the last year and the president has spoken at length on this topic. >> press secretary, sarah huck besande sanders. meanwhile, earlier we mentioned

president trump's tweet last night. he wrote big show tonight on sean hannity, 9:00 p.m. on fox news. if you took the president's advice and tuned in, you would have seen hannity talk about the, quote, clinton crime family and the comy crime family. the focus was the mueller crime family. they laced into the justice department. here is part of the conversation. >> james comey is a dirty cop. he is a completely dirty cop who was compromised from the very beginning of the investigation into hillary clinton. jeff sessions now has an obligation to the president of the united states to fire rod rosenstein after rosenstein authorized the unconstitutional and unprofessional search of the office of michael cohen. jeff sessions, tomorrow morning, should fire rod rosenstein.

it is not up to the president to fire mr. rosenstein. it is mr. session's job and he has a duty to fire rob roadenstein. >> rosenstein has not done his job and supervised mueller. this is an absurdity. we have paul manafort and his wife in their pajamas at 3:00 in the morning, having the fbi break down the door. we have had this last week cohen, the lawyer, had the door taken off the hinges at 6:00 in the morning. we are supposed to have the rule of law. it ain't the rule of law when they kick in your door at 3:00 in the morning and you are faced with our men and you have no reason to be told you are going to have that treatment. that shouldn't be the american fbi. >> joe, if you saw any clips of the show, the crime family graphics were the bulletin

boards, when connecting the dots and trying to figure out who the criminal is and straight lines from mueller to characters like whitey bulger, the long-time fbi informant and mob boss. bob mueller, whatever you want to say about him, this is not taking position on his investigation is a man who served this country his entire life. to call him the head of a crime family, that's new territory. >> it's beneath contempt. sean hannity is a desperate, desperate man, desperately defending a desperate, desperate president. sean hannity has a show that shep smith and the others at fox news call it a fake show and fake entertainment. that's fine, if people want to be entertained that way at night, that's fine, people watch the kardashians, too. when people at fox news sayitis

not news, it's entertainment, it is. it's trash though. the fact that he is entertained and the fact that other people are entertained by trashing a hero in vietnam, trashing a man that guided america through 9/11, a man that's dedicated his entire life to protecting americans at home and abroad is beneath contempt. it shows how desperate they all are because they know that 7 out of 10 americans say this investigation should be seen through to the end. no man is above the law. only 12% of americans say, in this investigation. you look at joe, i don't know how stupid he thinks americans are, but he must think they are extraordinarily stupid. it's very insulting to fox viewers that joe thinks they are such fools, such idiots that they think that james comey

helped hillary clinton. james comey wrote the letter ten days before the election that elected donald trump. james comey and mccabe made public an investigation of the clinton keown dags th clinton foundation that helped elect donald trump. i don't know how stupid they think americans are. it's the same with newt gingrich. i don't know what newt gingrich is getting out of this. newt gingrich skips it vietnam war. robert mueller goes there and serves admirably. newt gingrich is comparing a war hero and a man who dedicated his z entire life to protecting the u.s. constitution to stalin? newt gingrich understands that we have a united states constitution, that we have a rule of law, that we have something called probable cause and that we have constitutional protections. if you talk to michael cohen,

michael cohen will tell you he was treated respreectfully, he s treated well by the fbi agents. yes, we will see that everything they did was within the parameters of the united states constitution. for newt gingrich to shame himself, for newt gingrich to disgrace himself, for newt gingrich to humiliate himself, for newt gringrich to lay waste to his legacy, comparing a vietnam war hero, who dedicated his entire life to protecting the u.s. constitution of americans, to compare bob mueller to joseph stalin, the most evil man of the 20th century shows who newt gingrich is as a man and how desperate he and everyone else involved in this retched exercise are.

now they understand 70% of americans want the mueller investigation to be completed, they want to know what other russians are going to be indicted. they want to know what other people, inside the trump white house, are going to be indicted. this is the sign of desperation and, sadly, it is the sign of just how low people will go to denigrate themselves and forever destroy their reputation defending the indefensible. donald trump, mika, once again proves that no one around him leaves without a sullied and tarnished reputation. >> we'll bring in retired admiral james straight ahead on "morning joe." insurance that won't replace

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such good and important work for the environment. together, we're building a better california. i really do not believe whether i stay or go in 2019 going to affect the race for congress. i really don't think a person's race for congress is going to hinge on whether paul ryan is speaker or not. >> joining us now, founder of the house freedom caucus,

republican congressman, jim jordan of ohio, a member of the senate judiciary committee. congressman, good to see you. thanks for being with us. first question, were you surprised by speaker ryan's announcement yesterday morning? >> it came yesterday, but we have been hearing rumors, so we weren't shocked. we appreciate paul's 20 years of service to the country, a good man with a good family. he's going to be here six months, so we have to get to work. >> what does that mean. if there's new leadership, you have to think about life after paul ryan. how will it be different? >> well, i am much more concerned about what the next speaker does than who the next speaker is. what we have to get focused on doing is back to what the american people sent us to do, what did we tell them we were going to do? the bill we passed was not

consistent to the 2016 election. that was the worst bill i have seen in my ten years in congress. we have to get refocused on building the border security wall, making tax cuts permanent, doing welfare reform. the things the american people sent us here to do. >> i'll ask you the question i asked congressman cole, you are a small government conservative. we got a cbo report that said the budget deficit will exceed $1 trillion by 2020. how bothered are you by that and the fact that the tax cut and spending raises you passed affect that? >> i'm very bothered by it. they didn't put it in power to pass a $1.3 trillion bill to increase the deficit to $1 trillion in a couple years. 800 and some billion this year. that's not what they put us in office to do. we had a chance to achieve savings and not grow

discretionary spending in the defense area like we did and we did the think washington always does, the thing the swamp always does, spend more money on everything and push the bill off to someone else in the future. i'm very concerned about it, every member should be. unfortunately, we didn't take action three weeks ago like we should have. >> why did so many republicans vote for the bill if it's as bad as you say? >> part of it was driven by the military funding. we were so poised to win in light of the schumer shutdown before the bill, we had a chance where he said, no, no, more important than funding the military, he shut the government down because of the amnesty provision. the american people said that's a terrible idea. we were in such a good position public relations wise to win on the debate and increase money on defense and do what needs to be done for the troops and hold the line for everyone else. on the cusp of victory, nope,

let's spend more money. >> rick -- >> congressman jordan, i notice you are wearing a coat and tie this morning? is it cold in washington, d.c. or are you running for speaker? >> no, i'm outside and it's freezing. >> did paul ryan give you indication of the timing? an hour ago, it was going to make it difficult for republicans to maintain the majority when your biggest fund-raiser is now gone. did he consult with you on the timing and shouldn't he have waited, perhaps until he got reelected and then didn't run for speaker? >> you have to talk to paul about that. he did not consult with me. like i said before, much more important than who the speaker is and when or if he might be leaving is what we are doing. when you pass things like that bill, that's what makes it tough, politically and i think going to make it difficult for us to maintain the majority.

i think we can, but that's what we have to focus on. i's not about the person, when or when they are leaving. >> hi, congressman, it's heidi. you spoke of the debt in the omni bill. let's talk about the tax bill. the tax bill itself would add 1.9 trillion to the deabt over the next decade. we were told it would pay for itself and generate more revenue and generate a $4,000 pay raise per worker. we are seeing a lot of money is going to corporate buy backs. >> a lot of it is going to employees, too. we have employers in the district who gave a raise to employees and letting families keep their money is a good thing. letting the american people keep their money somehow is a cost to the government. it is good policy, letting you keep what you have earned,

letting the economy grow. >> $4,000 per person, congressman and the bill would pay for itself. they were specific promises. >> it's spending, not letting people keep their money. it's spending. tax cuts are good. they are going to produce economic growth. people are keeping more of their money. corporations are talking about what they have given to their employees. the problem is spending. the bill we passed was a big problem. we increased discretionary spending higher than any bill in the last ten years. >> congressman jim jordan, thanks for being on this morning. >> you bet, thank you. up next, the president's mixed messaging on syria. admiral james stavridis joins us next. ♪

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the fundamental problem here, joe, is the united states

never really had a strategy with regards to syria. we've been reactive to the moment and to the crisis without thinking about what is our strategy. if we are going to strike syria, i don't think this ought to be a reflex action without a strategy. that's what this administration has to do is figure out what is our long-term strategy in syria going to be? i think that the responsibility of a president is to deal with the crises facing this country and, right now, what he does by virtue of these tweets is generate crisis, to generate chaos. rather than dealing with the problems that he's facing, which are significant, whether it's the economy, or syria or trade or other issues, that's what he ought to be focusing on. to focus on this issue of bob

mueller and the investigation, focus on tearing people apart undermines his ability as president to be able to serve this country properly. >> okay. on that note, that was some of what former secretary of defense leon panetta told us on "morning joe." earlier, president trump tweeted about syria, never said an attack on syria would take place. could be very soon or not so soon at all. in any event, we have done a great job of ridding the region of isis. where is our thank you america? joining us now, former ally -- dean at tufts university, retired four star navy admiral, james stavridis. also with us, professor and director for the center of sustainable development at columbia university, economist, dr. jeff resachs. good to have you both with us.

admiral, i would like you to respond to what you have heard from the former director of the cia and secretary of defense, leon panetta. i'm so concerned at this point that people with the power to protect our democracy don't seem to be speaking up or doing what needs to be done if this president is not, as panetta indicated, living up to his responsibility to lead this country. >> it's a very significant statement from leon panetta. you are right to point out, he was director of the cia, secretary of defense. i worked for him for two years, he is a brilliant boss. he was also the chief of staff to the president. he knows the white house. he knows the system. he was in the house of representatives. hard to think of anybody with a greater span of experience.

he is precisely right. we have ourselves upside down here on strategy and tactics. you want your tactics to be surprising. you want to surprise your opponent. you want your strategy to be stable. in this instance on syria, we have it backwards. we have the president who massively telegraphed a strike that's coming, but our strategy, as secretary panetta says, is nowhere. we haven't connected the dots. if we strike with a bunch of tomahawk missiles and wash our hands, we are defeating the purpose and undermining a chance, and the chances are slim, of progress in syria. >> jeffry sachs, this is different than a war. this is convoluted and could get out of control. i don't think people conceptualize how out of control this could escalate. >> it's true, but i think we

have to step back and not put it in partisan terms. this is a u.s. mistake that started seven years ago. i remember the day on your show when president obama said assad must go and i looked at you and joe and i said, huh, how is he going to do that? where is the policy for that? >> right. >> and we know, they sent him the cia to overthrow assad, the cia in saudi arabia, together, in covert operations tried to overthrow assad. it was a disaster. it brought in isis and a splitter group to the jihadists that went in. it also brought in russia. we have been digging deeper and deeper and deeper. what we should do now is get out and not continue to throw missiles, not have a confrontation with russia.

seven years have been a disaster, under obama, continuing under trump. this is, what i call the permanent state. this is the cia, the pentagon, wanting to keep iran and russia out of syria, but no way to do that. so, we have made a proxy war in syria. it's killed 500,000 people, displaced 10 million and i'll say predictably so because i predicted it seven years ago, there was no way to do this and it would make a complete chaos. what i would plead to president trump is, get out. like his instinct told him. all the establishment, "the new york times," "the washington post," the pentagon, everybody said no, no, that's irresponsible. but, his instinct is right, get out. we have done enough damage seven years. now, we really risk a confrontation with russia that is extraordinarily dangerous.

reckless. >> admiral stavridis, president trump said we should get out of syria. that was his advice to barack obama many years ago, get out of syria. what are the consequences if you walk away right now from syria, without responding to a chemical attack from the regime there? >> i think there are two problems with professor sachs comments, although i certainly feel that sense of middle east fatigue that we all have. of course it's not just syria, it's iraq, afghanistan, a whole series of things that have generated the kind of feeling that says let's pull back and get out of the world, come back to the united states. i think there are two fundamental problems with that. one is the use of chemical weapons, i think does demand a response from the international community at a level of military strike. i do support a strike here. secondly, i think professor

sachs is correct to say this is a massive humanitarian disaster. the numbers are 600,000 dead and 14 million displaced. i'm in complete agreement with him on the scale of this. i would like to see the united states try to be part of the solution. here, what i would do is look back to the 1990s which looked somewhat like syria of today and there was, eventually, an international solution and included the u.s. and russia working together. we have a long way to go to get there, but if we just step away from it, as attractive as that feels to us, i don't think it's the right decision either for the country or the international community. >> i don't think it's attractive, but we have to understand how this happened. this happened because of us. these 600,000 are not just incidental. we started a war to overthrow a regime. it was covert. it was timber sycamore, you can

look it up, the cia operation, together with saudi arabia, still in secrecy, which is part of the problem in our country. a major war effort, shrouded in secrecy, never debated by congress, signed by president obama and never explained. this created chaos. throwing more missiles in right now is not a response. by the way, not to walk away, to go to the u.n. security council as the admiral says, to agree with russia on a strategy for ending the fight, but ending the fight means that we stop trying to overthrow a government that we stop trying to support rebels who are committed to overthrowing the government. that is where this war continues because we, to this day, back rebels that are trying to overthrow a government contrary to international law, contrary to the u.n. charter, contrary to

common sense, contrary to practical path. we can't do it. it's creating ongoing crisis to the extent of facing a confrontation with russia. >> i think this is an important conversation to have in terms of figuring out what the strategy and policy should be. my biggest concern is, though, this president isn't thinking about this at all. this is the last thing on his mind and anything he tweets about it fits the pattern of trying to distract and detract and admiral stavridis, i hate to go here, but i think it's at a point where we have to think about madeline albright's book, "fascism: a warning to the united states of america." when you have a president who calls the special counsel's probe a witch hunt and he calls the raid on his attorneys home and office a break in and attack on america like an act of war

and, as of last night, was promoting hannity, which was about the mueller crime family. then this morning, tweeting about syria. this does not sound like somebody who is going to keep america safe, let alone make it great again. >> i agree, mika. you know, there's a major international component to this problem as well. even as we are polarized here in the united states by all that you have described, and we feel the sense of our society being kind of rendered, our international friends, partners and allies are looking at these distractions and losing their confidence in our ability to bring coalitions together, to go to the united nations coherently and try and find a real resolution for syria, to take actions around the world. to your point, an excellent one,

about how it feels inside the united states, but also how it looks to the outside. >> a disgrace, humiliation, i will say it. admiral, thank you, jeffrey saks, thank you. you can watch our full interview with leon panetta online at joe.msnbc.com. up next, how about redesigning a souvenir coin to feature more of you, yourself and you? ryan zinke has reportedly been one-upped by scott pruitt. uh-huh, that's next on "morning joe." he's playing with us. no, he's trying to tell us something. let's see what forensics thinks. sorry i'm late. what did i miss? wanna get away? now you can with southwest fares as low as 49 dollars one-way.

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green mountain coffee roasters packed with goodness. a new report is highlighting embattled epa chief scott pruitt's efforts to rework some of his agency's official memorabilia in a bid to put a bigger emphasis on pruitt. according to "the new york times," pruitt pushed for the overhaul last year during his first few months in office. "the times" citing a former agency employee and two individuals says he wanted the epa's challenge coin, a type of souvenir medallion, to feature his name in large letters around the rim. the paper adds that pruitt also floated the idea to include symbols on the coin that sort of represent him, including a buffalo for his home state of oklahoma and a bible verse to represent his faith. an epa spokesman told "the

times" that they never ordered redesigned claims. "the times" says pruitt expressed disapproval of the epa's seal, saying it looked like a marijuana leaf. the paper also said pruitt wanted to remove the s.e.a.l. from memorabilia and have his name featured more prominently. but "the times" says the agencies feared the officials would be too expensive and removing the epa logo would be a breach of protocol. rick, help me out here, i have so many snarky things to say that i know at a moment like this, it's best not to say anything at all, rick tyler, go. it's all on you. what the heck is going on? what's wrong with him? >> the optics are s ars are ama these things and these are smart people, right? again and again and again, they feed into -- and other than themselves, some of them are

like little things but then you start adding them up, you know, the apartment which i can explain away or the medallion which i can explain away. but the jet travel and european trip, which i could explain away. but you start compounding them and people are like, i don't want to explain this anymore. like fix this. >> i also just don't want a guy with such a busy job ostensibly spending that much time obsessing over what the challenge coin looks like. >> yeah, designing what the challenge coin look, like. >> the republican chairman of the committee chuck grassley said the panel will take up a bill to protect special counsel mueller from being fired without cause next week. and republican senator orrin hatch just tweeted, quote, anyone advising the president in public or over the air waves to fire bob mueller does not have the president or the nation's best interest at heart. full stop. that's senator orrin hatch. meanwhile, nbc news vaugh hillyard went to williamson county, tennessee, a place where

trump won with 65% of the vote, and where 3 out of 5 trump voters he spoke with supported the investigation. >> who did you vote for in 2016? >> donald trump. >> for president? donald trump. >> i voted for trump. >> in 2016 i did vote for trump. i actually am more impressed with him than i expected to be. >> what do you think about the investigation surrounding the president? >> huh, wow. i want to wait and see if, after all the evidence comes in, if he is really guilty. >> do you support the investigations that are going on around the president right now? >> absolutely. we need the truth to come out no matter who. >> kind of like he thinks, it's a witch-hunt. they need to be investigating the democrats. >> he's calling it a witch-hunt. should they go on? >> they should go on. >> i don't know if you call it fake news but i think it's a scam. >> if he did anything wrong, we'll know. >> some of them are just fake investigations just to keep all

the bad news on him. >> i think everything in politics is a witch-hunt. i think hillary was a witch-hunt. i think nixon was a witch-hunt. >> the president was calling this a witch-hunt yesterday. >> obviously we're not supposed to talk like that. that's not wreck kon sconciliat speech. >> it's time for final thoughts. heidi, i'll start with you. >> democrats have kept away from the russia issue, mika, but if the president starts to move towards firing mueller, firing rosenstein, you saw just there how this explodes into a major campaign issue as well. because even trump supporters want to see this finished. they want to know. they want the truth to come out. >> there's no one in the senate seriously advising the president. as we heard from orrin hatch that it's a good idea to fire bob mueller. that noise as we saw last night is coming from cable news, it's coming from talk radio. as bob costa reports on the front page of "the washington post," again from steve bannon, working outside the white house. >> so ryan's departure

represents the end of the gop as ryan knew it. it is now trump's party. the 2018 elections will be a referendum on that party, trump's party. >> well, i'll tell you, nicole's son liam is right, i'm worried. there's no easy way to put it. very worried. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks, mika. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle, glad to be back this morning with much to cover. starting with where's our thank you. the president tweets, again, asking for praise after putting russia and syria on notice and staying coy about the time line of an attack. >> we stand ready to provide military options if they're appropriate as the president determined. >> this, as mike pompeo's confirmation hearing for secretary of state gets under way on capitol hill. and it's back. nbc news has learned the fbi agents who raided cohen's office

were also seeking records related to the infamous "access hollywood" tape. >> the president certa