trump world tower i was instructed not to criticize president trump's former housekeeper due to a prior relationship she had with trump which produced a child. this started with a washington post report claiming the owner of the national inquirer paid $30,000 to a door man who was offering an embarrassing story about then presidential candidate donald trump but never published it. that is according to a person familiar with the payment. nbc news has not confirmed that story, but we'll stay working on it. that does it for me. i'll see you back here at 6:00 p.m. eastern on the beat. "deadline white house" with nicolle wallace starts right now. >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. break being news in the mueller investigation into trump/russia collusion and potential obstruction of justice. nbc news breaking the story this hour that talks over a presidential interview with mueller's investigators which were much further along than had been previously reported have now largely broken down with

both sides proceeding as though a presidential interview is no longer in the cards. the other big headline and potentially more consequential one for this white house, nbc news breaking the news that the timetable for delivering a report on obstruction of justice may now be sped up. absent a presidential interview by the mueller team. that will likely include mueller's finding on now white house flash points. the comey firing. the president's role in responding to news of donald trump, jr.'s meeting with russians in trump tower. the president's lawyer john dowd floating those pardons for mike flynn and paul manafort. and jeff sessions, the attorney general being pressured not to recuse himself from the russia probe. nbc news also reporting, quote, mueller would then likely send a confidential report to deputy attorney general rod rosenstein who is overseeing the russia investigation. rosenstein could decide whether to make the report public and send its findings to congress. from there, congress would then

decide whether to begin impeachment proceedings against the president. that is according to two sources. this is the president sent out a rare midday tweet today. quote, i have agreed with the historically cooperative, disciplined approach that we have engaged in with robert mueller. unlike the clintons, i have full confoye dense in ty cobb, my special counsel and have been fully advised throughout each phase of the process. the team of reporters breaking the big news for us joins us right now at the white house. nbc's kristen welker, and washington carol lee and julie ainsley. also barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor is also here. kristen, let's start with you. take us through what you're reporting and any response you're hearing at this hour from the white house. >> no response yet from the white house, nicolle, but sources familiar with this discussions, this process tell us that those negotiations between the president's legal team and the team of special counsel robert mueller have

largely broken down at this point in the wake of that dramatic raid of the president's personal attorney michael cohen. now, we determined based on these conversations that the negotiations were actually further along than initially suspected, that they had started talking about final sticking points, everything from the scope to the breadth of a potential interview, the timing, how quickly robert mueller could write that report and submit it to rod rosenstein that you just talked about. ultimately, the president's legal team didn't want that process to drag out, wanted it to be expeditious. one source defining expeditious as a few months, three to four months perhaps. but all of that, nicolle, all of that has now come to a stand still. we have seen the president erupt publicly and privately. obviously he has been, as we have reported out throughout the week, talking about the possibility of not only getting rid of the special counsel, but also the deputy attorney general

who oversees the investigation, rod rosenstein. a caveat with all of this reporting, one source telling me, this is washington and anything can happen. so, not completely putting the final lid on a potential interview, but this is certainly been a major set back for the legal team, nicolle. >> let me underscore this part of the reporting. before the president described the raid of his attorney michael cohen's office as an attack on the country, your understanding of where the talks between the president's lawyers and the mueller team to be on a potential interview with the president to be some sort of final negotiation about the duration, somewhere around -- i think you reported two to three hours, is that right? >> a few hours. they didn't want it to extend into several days, for example. that was one of the asks. but these were the things that were being negotiated, nicolle, and they had begun the very, very preliminary preparations of actually talking to the president about how they might prepare him for this potential

interview. nothing had been decided. again, they were in the final stages of these negotiations. but again, all of that was derailed on monday after that very dramatic raid of the president's personal attorney, nicolle. >> and, carol lee, bring us inside the consequence of a presidential interview now potentially being off the table in terms of how the mueller team concludes and presents the obstruction of justice investigation into those specific flash points we named, the firing of jim comey, the crafting of a statement and an account after news organizations started asking about don junior's meeting with russians in trump tower, the pressure to -- placed upon jeff sessions not to recuse himself in the russia probe, as well as a newer revelation, the dangling of pardons in front of paul manafort and mike flynn. >> well, it essentially -- people we spoke with said it

leaves robert mueller in this position of, you know, he could just wrap this up without speaking to the president and that was always a possibility. there were a number of people who thought that the president and still think the president is never going to sit down with robert mueller and actually do an interview. but, you know, we spoke to one person who said that robert mueller had essentially spoken with everybody else that he needed to and reviewed all of the evidence in the obstruction portion of this investigation and was waiting on the interview. if the interview doesn't happen and isn't going to happen as it is increase little less likely to do, he can move up the timing of this report. he doesn't have to cut a deal with the president's legal team and say, you know, he'll hold off or do it within a certain amount of time. he can kind of pretty much do what he wants if the interview is off the table. >> let me, let me keep going on this question about what we understand to be happening inside the mueller investigation because that's one of the more opaque parts of this. julie ainsley, you have some

reporting on -- and i've heard this myself -- that this part could pretty handily be concluded without the president. any single flash point, the firing of jim comey, you have jim comey whoever he briefed contemporaneously, his memos, andy mccabe who corroborates his account. there are so many corroborating witnesses who have now tln been through the offices where bob mueller is conducting this investigation, that it seemed at some level, in terms of ascertaining the fact patterns around these flash points, bob mueller didn't really need an interview with the president. >> that's right, nicolle. as a source is planing to me when i was asking these same questions, he was trying to put it in terms i could understand as a journalist. think about if you're writing a story you have all the information you're need but you're waiting on one key interview. that person keeps putting you off then looks like they're not going to talk to you at all.

you would go forward with your story and just say that that person decided not to give their piece of this. and the reason why there were negotiations in the first place were to be able to allow the president to set some of these standards, to be able to say, i want to come in with my lawyers. i want to talk for this amount of time, this is what i'll talk about, this is what i won't talk about. he would lose those things if he ended up being subpoenaed by a grand jury to go before a grand jury. a lot of that is up in the air. there's a lot of legal questions about whether or not you can subpoena a president if a sitting president cannot be indicted. but the idea of this negotiation was actually to give the president more of the ability to be able to call his own shots. and so by throwing all this up in the air because he's so upset about the cohen raid, he could actually be doing a disservice to his own defense. >> kristen welker, i had heard from a former senior justice department official who was very familiar with a special counsel process, that what this would have looked like for the president would have been bob

mueller and several deputies with binders and binders of transcripts from testimony from his closest aides, people like hope hicks, don mcgahn, and some of his frenemies, if you will, from the justice department who have also testified to these four flash points you have cited in your report. does the president's legal team view it as good or bad for their legal strategy that talks have broken down around an interview? >> well, that's a good question. and it probably depends on who you ask because there were some divisions within the legal team. we know that ty cobb has been very vocal about, has talked about the fact that he wants to move forward with the potential interview with the president. now, important to underscore neither ty cobb nor jay sekulow, the other of the president's legal team leading the response, spoke to us for this report. they declined to comment. based on previous conversations,

i can tell you that they wanted to move forward with an interview if they felt as though the terms were right. and so that would mean that, again, it would fit within a specific time frame that there would be specific boundaries around what topics would be open to discussion, and a whole host of other details that needed to be drilled down on. in terms of how they are viewing this very moment, look, i think that they're going to have to wait and see how this all plays out, because what could happen, of course -- and the question that remains unanswered -- what will bob mueller do if, in fact, he determines that an interview becomes impossible. will he try to subpoena the president or will he write that report, nicolle. >> let's just reset this for our viewers, this power house team before you, kristen welker, carol lee, julie ainsley. their by lines, breaking news from nbc, talks between the mueller investigators and the president's legal team have largely broken down about any

interview for the president. he had repeatedly and publicly expressed great enthusiasm for talking to bob mueller. i think one time in the diplomatic room saying, i'd very much like to talk to him. it seems that after the raid of his personal attorney, michael cohen's home and offices, after the fbi seizure of all of the records about everything michael cohen has been involved in over the years, which was not done by the special counsel's investigation, that was referred to the u.s. attorney's office here in the southern district of new york, talks have broken off. the other big headline from nbc news from this fantastic team that joins us now, that the obstruction of justice report or an obstruction of justice report may be on an accelerated time line now, that they do not need to wait for, prepare for and incorporate whatever they glean from an interview with the president. carol lee, let's just go through some of those flashpoints that we know from

other witnesses and attorneys representing other witnesses that have been investigated. one of them that we know more about than others because of the divide among two former trump staffers is that crafting of a statement aboard air force one to try to explain away the purpose and what had happened in the meeting with the president's son, donald trump, jr., his son-in-law, jared kushner, and the russians who, i don't know if it's fair to say lured them there, but got them there by promising dirt on hillary clinton. we've known from mark corallo, a one-time member of the president's legal team, a spokesperson for it, that he quit over the way that statement was handled, over the way they were functioning as though no one would ever find out the truth. can you talk about how that incident has been scrutinized by the mueller team? >> sure. i mean, it's one of the most significant pieces of the obstruction case. and also, you know, the broader russia investigation because that meeting still holds a lot

of mystery, and so we know that robert mueller is digging into that meeting and a number of other incidents when it comes to the president and the obstruction piece. it's that meeting, it's his firing of james comey, his lawyer floating pardons with paul manafort and michael flynn. and, you know, i think part of what the president -- robert mueller might be looking for from the president, the significance of the interview ask to figure out what the president's intent is. he's not going to ask the president he doesn't already know the answer to which is why people think the president shouldn't do an interview. he wants to get at the intent. what was the president's intent in trying to manipulate or put out a statement, for instance, on -- that he crafted on air force one that wasn't exactly accurate. and so, you know, i think if you step back and look broadly at this, the significance of this raid on michael cohen can't really be underestimated because

it has roiled a number of things. in terms of our reporting it shows that this very significant critical piece of this investigation, whether or not the president sits for an interview, it's completely up ended that. and so, you know, i think that it set in motion a lot of uncertainty around things that at least the president's legal team thought were moving in a more manageable space. and now we just think we're all kind of waiting and seeing and trying to figure out what the next play is. >> barbara mcrae, carol lee used a word that i need you to come in and underscore the importance of. that bob mueller wants to understand the intent behind dangling pardons in front of men like paul manafort and mike flynn. he wants to understand the intent of firing jim comey. he wants to understand the intent of not telling the truth about that meeting in trump tower with russians promising

dirt on hillary clinton. and he wants to understand why the president was so angry about jeff sessions following the advice of career staff at d.o.j. in recusing himself from the russia investigation. what does that suggest to you? >> yeah, that is the critical factor in an obstruction of justice case. you have to prove corrupt intent. the acts themselves are somewhat easy to prove that you engage in a particular conduct, you said something. what was your intent? did you have some innocent purpose, some legitimate purpose, or was there an intent that is corrupt that was improper, illegal, wrongful, to cover up your own miss deeds or the miss deeds of others? that's the critical part. that's why robert mueller in an ideal world would have a chance to sit down with president trump and ask him what was on his mind when he was doing these things. it's frank little a chance for president trump to exonerate himself if he can come up with some other explanation for why he engaged in these activities or had others do it on his behalf. he might be able to convince robert mueller that there was no corrupt intent here.

but it sounds like, if robert mueller is ready to move on, that he has satisfied himself based on the evidence of others and statements in other things that president trump has done, that there is enough circumstantial evidence to establish that element of intent here. >> julie ainsley, what is your sense of what the president's reaction might be to a report that -- i'm just thinking about -- just look at the abuse that jeff sessions has taken. i think the very first account about president trump's rage at him and now he just says openly in public, he said it this week, if i knew he was going to recuse himself i wouldn't have picked him in the first place. it was a pretty dramatic break up when we first learned of the president's rage at jeff sessions. i believe there is some reporting that he was emotional, near tears, offered his resignation and reince priebus and don mcgahn and others got him to stay. can you just sort of take us inside how much mueller knows and whether you think there is a gap between the president's

understanding of what witnesses like hope hicks and don mcgahn who has been down to mueller's offices multiple times who has really been in the room for a lot of these things, how much mueller knows and how much trump thinks he knows, what's the gap there? >> i think it's really important to go back and look at that sessions relationship, especially this week as we've been really scrutinizing the relationship between the president and deputy attorney general rod rosenstein. all of the wrath against rosenstein is because of the fact that jeff sessions recused himself from this investigation in march of last year and that was after reports came forward that sessions, as a campaign surrogate, had had meetings with russians in his senate office. that was the russian ambassador to the u.s. since then, sessions recused himself. he said it was just because of his role in the campaign. and then rosenstein was then in a position to appoint special counsel robert mueller, which trump blames for a lot of his problems. you're right, there is a gap here. there is an understanding where

the president is either willfully blind to this or really just doesn't understand that there are people who can talk about jeff sessions' role and the pressure that was put on him really through don mcgahn, the white house counsel. we understand that the president would have used don mcgahn to try to pressure sessions against recusing himself, would have -- then after he recused himself, put a lot of pressure on him, make his life difficult as it was during the teary moments you laid out. a lot of that came this summer. jeff sessions has stayed in there. this is a position he really wants to be in as attorney general. he sees this as a place he can accomplish a lot of his other priorities like on immigration. that relationship is so rocky and it's one that mueller wants to look at because it could show that the president wanted to pick and choose who was in charge of this investigation into his own campaign. >> and we know, kristen welker, that the president covets a justice department staff that operates as his own guise.

he said in interviews that he wanted his own roy cohn. he wanted his own fixers and one of his great disappointments as president and with the presidency is that that's not how the justice department works. i want to ask you about that and also about the fact that rod rosenstein, a man who yesterday the president tweeted was the only person more conflicted than bob mueller because he had signed off on a fisa warrant, he had signed off on that raid into michael co michael cohen's offices. he was in that building behind you today. >> that's right, and that prompted a lot of calls to the justice department to get to the bottom of exactly what they may have been discussing. i can tell you we were told this was a routine meeting. but, of course, it came against this very dramatic backdrop. and according to sources i have been talking to throughout the week, the president has been mulling the idea of potentially firing rod rosenstein.

some of his allies believe that would allow him to put someone into place, someone he appointed, he appointed rod rosenstein as well, but it would effectively do a better job of keeping mueller in check. is that a move he is going to make? that remains unclear. but there certainly is this campaign that we're watching unfold by some of his outside allies. steve bannon, his former chief strategist who no longer speaks to the president, but who talks to a number of people here within the white house, essentially in a washington post report overnight calling for the ouster of ty cobb, the president's attorney here at the white house -- >> last man standing at this point. >> that is absolutely right. calling for a much tougher strategy and basically trying to dee legitimatize the probe. and you heard something almost exactly similar from joe digenova. remember, he's an attorney -- >> let me play that. we'll talk about it on the other side. let's watch that together. >> jeff sessions, tomorrow morning, should fire rod

rosenstein. it is not up to the president to fire mr. rosenstein. it is mr. sessions' job and he has a duty to fire rod rosenstein. >> there it was, kristen. you asked and we provide. that has to be advice that the president is taking to heart if we look at every other policy decision he makes at least on par with the advice he's getting from real-live lawyers. >> absolutely. this is someone he almost brought into his legal team. he didn't due to conflicts of interest. but we know he watches fox news. in fact, he teased the segment last night, nicolle. >> who needs prose when you have the president? >> that's right. he clearly may have had a heads up what joe digenova was going to say. it's a sign i think the president is taking this seriously. again, is this something that he's just musing about or is he very serious? even a number of officials who are familiar with the discussions aren't quite sure at this point, but one thing is certain. this is about the angryest he's

ever been with this investigation. and i think that's part of why you're seeing these talks break down, nicolle. >> barbara mcquade, let me give you the last word on this. i understand from a source that the search to find the president more and better, perhaps, lawyers is very much ongoing. how does the reporting today from our network affect that search? >> well, it seems it's more important than ever that president trump have an experienced seasoned criminal defense attorney to assist him. the lawyers that he's had representing him in the past are his business lawyers, people who. done transaction work for him. it seems like there are a lot of strategic decisions he needs to make right now about whether he wants to meet with robert mueller, about dealing with the way he goes about -- even the decision about firing rosenstein or mueller is really wrought with legal peril because it could be additional evidence to bolster an obstruction of justice charge. i think having a criminal defense lawyer at his side right now is incredibly important.

>> carol lee, julie ainsley, kristen welker, congratulations on the megascoop, on your professionalism on this reporting. it is an incredible peek into where things stand. we are grateful to have you with us. when we come back with the president still enraged about the raid of his personal lawyer's office and home, a flesh round fresh round of stories about hush money being paid to keep bad news quiet. michael avenatti, attorney for stormy daniels joins us live in the studio. also as the president impulsively tweets away about a defense strike in syria, testimony before the house arms services committee carefully warns retaliation must be, quote, balanced against the threat of a wider war, and seemed to walk back some of the president's menacing language about a wider conflict. stay with us. do you want the same tools and seamless experience across web and tablet? do you want $4.95 commissions for stocks,

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a former door man at trump world tower tells nbc news he believes the president had a child with a former housekeeper. telling us, quote, today i awoke to learn a confidential agreement i had with ami, that's the national inquirer, with regard to a story about president trump was leaked to the press. i can confirm that while working at trump world tower i was instructed not to criticize president trump's former housekeeper due to a prior relationship she had with president trump which produced a child. his statement about this relationship not verified by nbc news, coming on the heels of a bombshell report from three different news organizations that american media, the publisher of the national

inquirer, paid him $30,000 to prevent him from telling that story publicly. the extraordinary story filling out a picture of the relationship between donald trump and one of his most ardent supporters, the national inquirer. the raid on the president's personal attorney cohen's home and offices, unearth his involvement with the hush money and timing of payment to people in organizations working to clean up donald trump's alleged transgressions before the election. "the new york times" reports today that, quote, since the early stages of his campaign in 2015, mr. trump, his lawyer michael cohen and mr. pecker have strategized about protecting him and lashing out at his political enemies. the federal inquiry could pose serious legal implications for the president and his campaign committee. joining us now from the washington post, white house bureau chief phil rucker. at the table nick, political reporter for "the new york

times," and rick, former under secretary of state for public diplomacy and former managing editor for time magazine. barbara mcquade is still with us, of course. nick, let me start with you since your paper had a lot of this report being today. your thoughts? >> well, look, the important thing is not the affair and the rumor which we're not going to discuss too much because it's unverified. >> right. >> we can't tell if it's true. an apparent fact here is that the president's lawyer had worked with ami to provide a payment to this gentleman to not tell his story and that gets us more into this question of is ami essentially an agent of the trump campaign? are they working hand in glove with the trump campaign? and that raises some serious first amendment questions and it raises questions about election laws surprisingly enough. >> we should just say, i worked on campaigns and sometimes there are outside committees that support a campaign, that put up ads and that get involved in media relations. but they are regulated by campaign finance laws. and so is it your sense that some of what they were looking for in that raid may have been

around investigating potential violations of campaign laws? >> it is important to point out i think the raid could produce that kind of evidence. it is not clear what different topics the raid was trying to approach. but, look, if a media organization is in essence working hand in glove on behalf of a campaign or a candidate, that media organization becomes essentially a super pac or is making contributions to the candidate. it sounds really weird and it's very hard to judge this stuff. certainly as a reporter i want a pretty wide berth around first amendment stuff, right. but it's possible that lawyers could conclude that, yeah, they're actually functioning as an agent of the campaign. in that case that payment has to be disclosed on payment reports. >> phil rucker, the political story here seems to be as donny deutsche -- i never thought i'd be quoting him. when you turnover the rock on donald trump's life, his personal life, his business dealings, the person who one

knows under the rock because he put it there is michael cohen. the reality is a lot of it ain't pretty. >> that's exactly right, nicolle. we described cohen in a piece earlier this week as donald trump's virtual vault. he knows all the secrets. he's been doing this sort of work on behalf of trump for years now and there is a reason why the fbi is so interested in discovering his records and finding out what he has. one thing we don't know, by the way, based on the information that's out publicly so far, is where this money came from, the payment to stormy daniels, the payment -- now we've learned about to the door man. where did that money come from? did it come at all from trump in did it come from some other funding source, another donor somewhere? we don't know. but those are really important questions to ask. and i think cohen has some of the answers, which is probably why the president reacted with such rage with so many eruptions on monday to those raids because he knows how close cohen's

records are to his personal life. >> you have a theory about what they're looking for and about the investigation. >> i do, indeed. would you like to hear it? >> i would love to hear it. >> first of all, i'm going to say when james madison was writing the first amendment, i don't think he was thinking about protecting national inqui inquire error m inquirer or mr. pecker. stories about martians on earth -- >> and pay to kill. >> it's more like a super pac sometimes than an actual news organization. but the theory that we were talking about before is that basically the trump organization is like a racketeering organization, that basically the -- special attorney, attorney for the southern district could use the rico act which is an act passed in 1907 for basically trying to indict

mafia organizations because you could never get the leaders either to testify or anybody to incriminate them. and so one of the things that people have talked about is using those statutes to basically indict the entire trump organization, which would be an interesting approach. >> barbara, is it your sense that prosecutors are looking at the trump organization, mr. trump, and his colleagues in the way that rick posits they would be? >> a rico would be a pretty big allegation. i don't know we're there yet. you would have to show a pattern of racketeering activity. they would commit certain crimes. you would have to build that. i don't know that they would be there yet. but i think they're interested, no doubt, in violations of campaign finance law. there is at least enough information we have here to suggest that there can be some undisclosed or higher than limits contributions. i know i have read some

reporting that there is investigation into bank fraud. i'm sure money laundering is part of it, too, because money laundering comes into play when you make one financial transaction for the purpose of concealing its real purpose. and so when you have a cover up involved, that's often in play. so, i think they're looking at those little bricks before they put together a wall that would be enough to constitute a rico allegation. >> that sounded like a racketeering -- >> i was going to say, i love where we are. no, i don't think we're at rico. we're at run of the mill money laundering, bank fraud. you're keeping us grounded today, barbara. i'm going to run something else by you. this is adam schiff's, one of his theories about what they're looking for. we know that bob mueller is interested in the role that the russians played in the hacking of the dnc. listen to this and let's talk about this on the other side. >> it's also possible that they're looking at whether the trump campaign and michael cohen had any role in the timing of

the wikileaks dump of the russian stolen podesta e-mails. >> so, this seems like another brick, if i want to keep your analogy going, that they could also be looking for a piece of that collusion investigation. and i wonder if you think that could have been the original search and all of the other things that were turned over to the southern district, the potential campaign finance violations, the hush money threads of the investigation, were turned over because that may have been what mr. schiff describes, what they were originally scrutinizing. >> i think it's a fascinating at the moment coincidence. the question is is it more than a coincidence. one of the things prosecutors always do is they love time lines. you put things together and you can see overlaps and patterns in things. so to see these two things coincide, the access hollywood tape and the wikileaks leak, does that mean those were coincidental or is there a purposeful release on the same day? that's very interesting. but i don't think that the search warrant would have been

spun off to the southern district of new york if that was the purpose because i think that's very closely linked to robert mueller's mandate to look for links between russia and the campaign. it may be that they find that in searching for the access hollywood tape, in which case the southern district of new york could share that right back with robert mueller. >> give you the last word. >> reporters are also a big fan of timetables and time lines. i think, yes, the big question is the access hollywood tape and the first drop of those e-mails. i remember covering it hours later. and you have to wonder how was that timed. look, it doesn't take a genius if you're at wikileaks to be like, well, we should do it now without any coordination. on the other hand, who knows what happened down there. >> phil rucker, let me ask you how this is landing at the white house. you've got some unbelievable reporting about, i think it's a quote i wrote down this morning when i was going through your -- all of your stories this morning from your piece that, you know, whatever is in front of us, we go from a fire at trump tower to bombing syria to raid at michael

cohen -- how are they -- they seem shell shock to me. >> it's not going well. it's been pretty difficult week, nicolle. you know, the president was in truly a rage on monday. he was very upset about this raid and was talking to his advisors and friends about it. he seems to have cooled off at moments this week, but there are still flashes of anger later this week, too. and let's keep in mind there are really serious decisions he's making right now, especially with what to do in syria, with what that military strike might look like when it might happen. i mean, this is a time when you want the president to be completely sober minded and thinking earn tently on these options before him and he seems to be very distracted by what's going on up in new york and with the robert mueller investigation. >> that is an interesting point. if you think back to, and you can debate the decision -- i know even democrats debate president obama's handling of syria. but you think about that very sort of stoic solitary walk he

took around the south lawn of the white house with his chief of staff while he was making decisions about life and death. he certainly wasn't sitting with his arms crossed in the cabinet room talking about a raid on his lawyer's office being an attack on this country. thank you, phil rucker. thank you, barbara mcquade for keeping us honest. take a look at the cover of time magazine. we'll talk to michael avenatti and the legal problems with the hush money and whether he saw this coming. fire fighting is a very dangerous profession.

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and so we have to practice safety everyday. utilizing pg&e's talent and expertise in that area trains our firefighters on the gas or electric aspect of a fire and when we have an emergency situation we are going to be much more skilled and prepared to mitigate that emergency for all concerned. the things we do every single day that puts ourselves in harm's way, and to have a partner that is so skilled at what they do is indispensable, and i couldn't ask for a better partner. the brand-new cover of time magazine puts it eloquently. stormy. so, let's talk to the man behind the storm. michael avenatti, stormy daniels's attorney is back with us. we spoke -- i told you i live in dog years. monday night, tuesday night. there is a raid on michael cohen's offices and home. what is your understanding of

where things stand with mr. cohen, your adversary in this legal contest about stormy daniels's nda? >> well, we've learned moments ago within the last two hours that michael cohen will be filing a motion tomorrow in our case, an emergency motion, to stay or temporarily stop our case. and the grounds for that motion are going to be that it is his intention to plead the 5th amendment against self-incrimination if our case goes forward in light of potential criminal jeopardy that he finds himself in. so, this is a stunning development. >> let me just get you to restate that for the non-legal beagles out here. michael cohen, who has been in essentially hand to hand combat with you over the enforcement of stormy daniels's nda is now going to plead the 5th? >> that's what we have been informed by his counsel. you may recall one week ago today the president stood on air

force one and told the american public and the press that if they had any questions about what happened relating to the agreement or the payment, that they could pose those questions to his attorney, michael cohen. he was emphatic and clear about that. we are now one week later. on monday we had a raid of three locations associated with michael cohen. today we find out that it is his intention to plead the 5th amendment against self-incrimination in response to any questions that i may pose to him in connection with our case. they are going to seek an emergency stay. we have agreed to a briefing schedule relating to their motion. we are going to oppose that stay. we think we have very good grounds as to why there should be no delay in our case. but make no mistake about it, we're talking about the attorney to the president of the united states, the man that knows where a lot of bodies are buried, and we have learned within the last hour or two that it is his intention to plead the 5th

amendment. >> what -- so, you plead the 5th if you are afraid your testimony will incriminate you. you don't take the 5th if you're innocent. right? is that a layperson's understanding of the 5th amendment? >> well, there are a lot of reasons to plead the 5th. it is a constitutional right that is available to all americans. but i find this incredibly ironic because donald trump has been very outspoken in the past about people that plead the 5th. he has a number of quotes on the record. he was quoted extensively during the campaign as it related to various individuals pleading the 5th. and i'm going to paraphrase some of those quotes. he said only mobsters plead the 5th and you only plead the 5th if you're guilty. >> let me ask you to do a little bit of legal analysis for us. with that as the development today, a rather stunning development it would seem, where do you think that raid is leading the federal

investigation into other potential crimes by mr. cohen? this is not obviously involving your client stormy daniels, but you know a lot about mr. cohen. he's now your -- you're obviously someone who studies the enemy, and i wonder what you have learned about your legal enemy in stormy daniels's case and what you make of pleading the 5th and of the raid on his house and what other leads you think they're chasing. >> here's what i'll say. we're cooperating extensively with attorneys from the southern district of new york office of the u.s. attorney. there is no question that these folks are very dedicated, focused and smart as it relates to this investigation. there is also no question in my mind that michael cohen finds himself in a very, very bad place. it's a place that i predicted a number of weeks ago that he would ultimately find himself in. and i think the likelihood of this not ending well for him is high, extremely high. and i'm going to go back to

something that i've said consistently, and that is that if he buckles under pressure, buckles under the intense scrutiny that he's going to be placed under in an effort to save himself and not serve time or to curtail the amount of time that he could potentially face, i think this is going to end very, very badly for the president. >> could we go through what he might have done wrong? so, there is the actual transfer of funds in and of itself, right, that he has not perhaps given us all the information on where that has come from. is there a potential crime that he's committed in obtaining the funds or lying about where they came from? is that exposure for him? >> well, i think there are a number of areas of exposure -- >> will you take us through some of those? >> sure. it's speculation. it's probably a little better than speculation, but what i'll say is i think he could potentially face charges relating to bank fraud, money laundering, campaign finance violations. there may be a whole host of other transactions that he was a party to over the years.

what i will say is this. i don't think that there is going to be a limited amount of information that's going to be available in the event that either the southern district or the special prosecutor want to bring charges against michael cohen. >> it is your belief and your contention that you have the right to depose the president. how does michael cohen pleading the 5th impact that prospect? >> well, i don't know that it does. i mean, i think if anything, it enhances our argument as to why we should be able to depose the president. if michael cohen pleads the 5th, then we want to turn to the next individual, which would be the president, to provide us information as to what happened here. hopefully the president would not plead the 5th. i think that would be a stunning, shocking development in the history of our nation to have him plead the 5th. i know at one point in time i think he was quoted as saying that bill clinton should have pled the 5th in connection with

his deposition. so, this is a very dynamic situation. it's not getting any better for michael cohen and the president. i was rather shocked to learn this news today. i think it's a stunning development and we're going to see what happens. >> you said on tuesday night you had a sketch done by a very accomplished person who creates sketches of suspects. >> lois gibson. >> do you plan on releasing that sketch? >> perhaps. we haven't made a decision yet. we're still in the same place we were a couple days ago. >> is there anything that happened in the raid, information gleaned from the raid of michael cohen's home and offices that make releasing your sketch and launching a search with the public and putting up a phone number unnecessary? >> i'm not going to answer that. >> is it possible that the identity of the person who intimidated your client, stormy daniels in the parking lot while she was with her infant could be learned from the raids monday? >> certainly. >> i know you know the answer to some of these questions. let me ask you some things that are loose strings on your end.

you never sort of shied away from the tease, and one of the things you teased is that dvd. are you at this point ready to share any more information about what's on that dvd? >> not at this juncture, but some would call it a tease and some would call it a prediction. you know, i'm going to go back to something i've said on a prediction scale. >> you have a pretty good record? >> i think we're going to keep shooting until we miss. >> let me use you as a predictor. we have been covering several nda's crafted perhaps by the same people who crafted yurd client's nda, mr. cohen, the $30,000 payment to a door man who corroborates that that payment was indeed made to him to keep quiet about a relationship and a child born to the president and a housekeeper. of course, the president denies that. and nbc news hasn't independently corroborated that. but with your intimate knowledge of the quality of ndas produced by mr. cohen, what do you think

the likelihood is that all the facts are going to come out about a lot of the skeletons in mr. trump's closet? >> well, if that nda looks like the nda in our case, it's a piece of garbage and i nda in our case it is a piece of garbage and i would think that the likelihood of the facts coming out would be very, very high. this is what happens when you surround yourself with incompetent counsel. this is the place you find yourself in. you know, the seeds for this were sewed a long time ago. and now all of that is coming home to roost. not to meks metaphors. >> let me mix a couple of stories. you are on the back half of the show. we started with the mueller investigation. we pay a lot of attention between the investigation between russia and donald trump. >> do you think that's round, do you think the president's greivous action is around bad

contracts, knowingly intimidating people with whom he has had bad relationships with? eight people coming forward, not verified but is is your sense of the president's greatest faults right now. >> i'm not familiar with the investigation into the russian collusion or alleged russian collusion. that seems like a very, very difficult case the prove because of a number of fangtdors, location of witnesses, knowledge of witnesses, people that are going to cooperate, not cooperate. it is just a very messy, complicated situation. this situation that we are talking about relating to michael cohen and what he knows and what bodies were buried and the flow of money, et cetera, is a much, much simpler case to prove potentially. i think the charges are cleaner. i just think it is a lot easier. so i think that that avenue potentially exposes the

president to significantly greater liability than the russian collusion investigation. >> let me ask you one last question. you said you are cooperating with the southern district of new york, the u.s. attorney's office. obviously, your case is just part of a whole bunch of things they are looking at. but you are also pursuing the campaign finance violation that could have been made. we talked about that after the 60 minutes interview. do you have any sense from your interacts or miss clifford's interactions with them how that backs their cases against mr. cohen. >> what i will say is this, i am going to be careful about what i discuss concerning this issue because we want to be respectful of the process. it is a very serious process. i am continually impressed with the depth of knowledge that they have -- >> about mr. cohen? >> correct. >> is about mr. trump? >> correct. not only the depth of knowledge but the aroach to this. the amount of resources that are being put behind this, how

thoughtful they are being in connection with this. this is not some messy investigation that's just been thrown together overnight. they are crossing ts not once, not twice, but three times. these are very serious lawyers, very accomplished lawyers, very smart lawyers, and they are doing it by the book. >> i will ask you one more then, this was referred from the special counsel's office, how long do you think they were in receipt of knowledge of potential wrongdoing from mr. cohen? >> i can't speculate as to that. i do think obviously the conduct or what we have done over the last five weeks has really brought this to the forefront. i don't think anybody can argue against that. >> i am not a lawyer but it sounds like a big development in your case today. please come back to this post. michael avenatti spend type with us again. we are grateful. we will be back right after a break. duncan just protected his family

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broken down, that mueller's release of a report about potential obstruction of justice is moving up, and michael avenatti says that michael cohen whose home and offices were raided on monday is pleading the fifth. >> it sounds like team trump is kinds of backing down on these various fronts and is getting ready to hunker through this. and it sounds like the mueller investigates if not wrapping up is actually reaching its actual final phase. people have been saying that for months and months now. at least to contemplate the different parts of the report, according the both story. look, this long thing might finally be over at some point in the next few years. >> how about, though, michael cohen, which is the thing that seems to enrage the president the most. he called the raid on michael cohen's office an attack on the country using more forceful language about the raid on his office more than anything else since he has been president. >> here why. he calls him the personal

lawyer, but he has been called the fixer, a very different thing. cohen is a guy who fixes problems and gets things done. he is not in any real sense a personal lawyer for the president. chl gets at the vulnerable. he fixes problems, which means he knows what all the problems are, he knows where the bodies are, not that there are real bodies. i think cohen knows all the pain points for this president. >> taking the fifth. what do you think about that. >> aim going to tell you a secret about trump's testifying in front of mueller. he never was going to do it, under any circumstance. he was absolutely bluffing. he always keeps a million balls in the air. him testifying in front of mueller is not only a perjury trap it is a perjury guarantee he cannot tell the truth as long as you and i are talk.

he was never informing do do that. he was dangling it out to prolong the case which is what he does. he has cases that having going on 20 years. >> you disagree. >> he testified in that case against the journalist who wrote about his fortune. >> tim o'brien. >> skpoo and he was caught in various points. >> 46 lies. >> but if you read the transcript he was forced to admit stuff which in some cases is worse than lying. >> he is protected by executive privilege. there is no way he would ever testify to mueller i'm telling you that. >> what do you make of his personal lawyer taking the fifth. >> to go back to my rico point, cohen is the consignaturelieri. that's. >> that's what they do. >> he was operating a racketeering organization. he was not functioning as a lawyer, he was functioning as

someone who was making illegal deals for donald trump. >> what an hour. my thanks to knick conves sory and rick strengthel for getting me through it. "mtp daily" starts right now. two days in a row on time. >> i hope to get through my breaking news. >> if i can get through mine -- >> tonight as talks break down over trump/mueller interview, has is the president keeping his legal battles from clouding his decision on syria. >> we are looking very, very seriously, very closely at that whole situation, and we will see what happens, folks. we will see what happens. plus, the strike force, what options are on the table toen is send a mess aible to assad and putin? >> today our president did say he has not made a decision. >> reporter: and the gop leadership shuffle. >> i have never run against kevin and wouldn't