implications of the new tax bill when that was going through congress and you're helping americans understand this. ady barkan, best of luck to you. >> thank you. >> ady is the director of be a hero. that's it for me. thanks for watching. "deadline white house" with nicolle wallace starts right now. >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. donald trump's arsenal may be failing him. his tools of choice have all come under fire since the dramatic raid of his attorneys's offices and home last week. and since then his use of hush money deals, friendly media allies willing to catch and kill unfavorable stories and his belief in the ironclad loyalty of the colorful characters around him have come under renewed scrutiny. the public debate about how trump's personal attorney and fixer, michael cohen, will hold up in the wake of that raid is really just a debate over whether he goes to jail for the president or flips. no one seems to suggest that cohen is clean. from politico, quote, president

trump and his outside advisors are increasingly worried that his long time personal attorney might be susceptible to cooperating with federal prosecutors. from the "wall street journal," quoting one of mr. trump's former attorneys, quote, on the scale of 100 to 1, where 100 is fully protecting the president, mr. cohen isn't even a 1. he said he told mr. trump. and from alan dershowitz, trump's tv lawyer of choice and is reported by politico, quote, that's what they'll threaten him with, life imprisonment. they're going to threaten him with a long prison term and turn him into a canary that sings. notably, no one even pretends that cohen isn't in a position to damage the president, not even for appearances. for all the lies people in the trump orbit tell, this is a surprising area of candor. with us from the washington post, national political reporter and moderator of washington week, robert costa. frank figliuzzi, former fbi sa assistant director for counter intelligence. kmarly sykes, contributing ed r

ed tort weekly standard and daily standard podcast. elise jordan, former aide in the george bush white house. former press secretary for president obama, and chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney and former senior fbi official, all lucky us, are now msnbc analysts and contributors. let me start with you, frank figliuzzi. what does this look like from someone inside the fbi that the people around the president who are sort of living proof of loose lips sinking ships won't even, you know -- they lie about the most audacious things, the size of an inauguration crowd, the size of, you know, this and that. no one is pretending that cohen isn't a live downed wire. >> well, think about this. let's say you or i have our home or office raided by the fbi. and think about a scenario in which all we and our friends can talk about is whether i'm going to flip on them.

this simply is extraordinary. and the assumption here, of course, is that this guy has got something. he's got something he's guilty of and more importantly he's got something to share that is going to point toward the president. that's what seems to be indicated here by everyone leaking out of the white house and around the president. >> and, robert costa, what's interesting is that sometimes in the president's new york circles, there is one narrative that takes shape and sometimes in washington circles there is a different one. this is one of the first instances around the president's legal exposure where the conversations are the same in both places. the president's political allies in and outside the white house think he's in deep do do and the president's circles in new york think the same thing. >> and it's complicated discussions for the president's advisors, both his russia legal team and white house officials. they have explained to the president over the past week that cohen is now being pursued

legally by the southern district of new york, the u.s. attorney there, separate from robert mueller special counsel investigation. and so there is an environment around the president, at least in some quarters, to not make any dramatic moves on the investigation. cohen is a separate issue. certainly a political problem, a distraction to be sure, they tell me. at the same time, it's different from mueller and they're trying to treat mueller with delicacy at this moment. >> and, frank figliuzzi, i'm sure robert has the political and public relations analysis spot on. but from bob mueller's perspective, he was in possession of a lot of what mr. cohen knew and did well before he referred whatever other streams of the investigation were referred to the southern district of new york. so, he could still very much be on mr. mueller's radar, isn't that true? >> yeah, i think it's important to remember that while he deliberately handed this off to the southern district of new york, that does not mean that

there is some piece of a cohen puzzle that still rests back with mueller and the special counsel team. i think, i think people are jumping to conclusions that cohen has just been jettisoned by mueller. it's quite possible there is more to this and a portion has been retained by mueller. >> chuck rosenberg, what do you make of the fact -- let me bring our viewers in on some breaking news that just crossed our desk from betsy woodruff who said rudy giuliani is in talks to join trump's legal team. he has been in talks to join the president's personal legal team according to persons familiar with the matter. no decision is currently final. it is a little bit like the bachelor, a lot of people there waiting for roses. a lot of people have been approached about joining that team. time will tell if rudy says yes. back to the question of the cohen investigation and potential prosecution out of the southern district here in new york and what bob mueller may have interest in learning about

him. talk to us about the overlaps and potential overlay. >> frank is right. the mueller team may still have a piece of it. or in the alternative, it may be that something develops in the southern district of new york that they learn something that they believe, they, the prosecutors here in manhattan, need to go back to the mueller team. so, this is a very common scenario. there are 94 u.s. attorney's offices around the country. i was a u.s. attorney in virginia. if something was in our office that belonged in the district of connecticut, we simply send it there. and if a piece of that case needs to come back, they send it back. these are all federal prosecutors around the country working at their best when they're working cooperatively. >> and they all use the same fbi and these referrals all go up through the same chain of command at main d.o.j. >> that's exactly right. the same fbi, same d.e.f., same dea. this is all part of the same federal law enforcement system. you're right, it is coordinated through main justice to whom all of us, all the component pieces,

report. >> robert costa, let me get your views on something that has grichl driven the president out of his mind since it was first published by buzzfeed. the president's personal attorney dropped his lawsuit against buzzfeed and fusion gps who was one of the outside organizations originally hired by conservative republicans, ultimately that account taken over by democrats, put out a statement because they were partially responsible for gathering some of that information and retaining mr. steele who was their investigator in london. they put out a statement saying, we welcome, though we're not surprised, that michael cohen opted to withdraw this meritless complaint rather than face a discovery process that would have forced him to defend his reputation and address the allegations of the steele dossier under penalty of perjury. with his decision it appears mr. cohen can now focus on his many other legal travails. it sounds to me like this is another instance where they are trying to wall off the president and the people around him from getting to the bottom of that

dossier that has triggered the president since the day jim comey walked in and told him about it. >> if you think about the context of all this, the washington post and others have reported that michael cohen was known for recording conversations with clients, recording conversations with people he was interacting with on legal cases. and so if he had a discovery process, those e-mails, those audio recordings, they could all fall under that purview. and that's a challenge and it's also something that creates a lot of anxiety among people close to president trump. and so there is certainly no hard feelings in the white house today or down at mar-a-lago about cohen trying to at least narrow the scope of what he's doing legally. >> and, and cohen now is at the middle of the veracity questions around the dossier. mcclatchy reported last week that mueller had evidence that cohen was in prague in 2016, confirming part of the dossier. all that has happened to the dossier is that while not

entirely corroborated, little pieces of it have been. i have not heard of any wholesale discrediting of the document. >> yeah, that's right. the more that we learn about the dossier, the more that we see why the dossier was written in the first place. i think it's clear that as steele was developing this document, he was drawing on the same kind of evidence that federal investigators are now themselves finding and are leaking out into the public. it is a real problem. i think the other problem with cohen is not just that he was trump's lawyer, but that he was a confidant. he was somebody that trump actually probably would be honest with because you need to be honest with him to go and solve the problem. it is certainly understandable why the blood pressure is at a particularly elevated level in the oval office and mar-a-lago these days. >> elise, are you as struck as i am that no one even tries to spin this? i mean, this is the most audacious sort of press operation. they use the podium, they use the exquisite rooms of the white house to tell some of the most

outrageous lies that i'm sure josh and you and i have ever heard from inside that building. yet when it comes to cohen they're like, ooh, yeah, we're in trouble. >> well, when it comes to cohen and then also this week i would point out that yet another play mate came forward alleging an affair while a wife was pregnant. and just not -- they didn't even bother to deny it, it didn't become a big story. everyone kind of assumes it's true. i think that's the problem that michael cohen has right now. everyone thinks this is completely within the realm of possibility, for him to be tied up in some severe financial crimes at a bare minimum. >> we knew the trump presidency was going to be a reality show. we did not know it was going to be the sopranos. we ultimately didn't know the republican party, pretty much congress is okay with that. this is not getting any better. one of the things donald trump is losing control of not just the legal narrative, he's losing control of the show narrative. we have actually now had the counter programming.

michael cohen is like, to use donald trump's phrase, he's like from central casting as the guy who now we're talking about, is he going to flip over. and your point that nobody is basically trying to say he's completely innocent, he has nothing to hide, that's not even in the spin. they're not even trying -- >> i'm sad that they're not trying. frank figliuzzi, "the new york times" reported i guess last friday donald trump was on the phone with michael cohen. do you think he's dangling -- we know john dowd, the president's now departed lawyer in the russia probe had dangled pardons in front of mike flynn and paul manafort. do you think anywhere pardons are being promised to someone like michael cohen if he doesn't spill the beans on someone, his client the president? >> so, we have a body of evidence which is past performance and that is that that has happened in the past and it's likely to happen again

and even be implied by trump or inferred by cohen. so, i think that's got to be rattling around in cohen's mind whether or not it's already been formally dangled or not. but this gets into a much more interesting question about whether that would even constitute possible obstruction of justice, you know, this whole issue of dangling a pardon. whether that in itself could potentially be viewed in the aggregate with other indicators, could potentially be part of another obstruction charge. >> let me press you on that. because after the raid he pardoned a man he'd never met, someone george w. bush never sought to pardon because he thought his crimes were serious enough not to do so. and there was an active debate inside the bush white house about scooter libby. donald trump, who said he'd never met him, but thought he'd been mistreated or treated unfairly by a special counsel, pardoned him. do you think that's another signal? >> oh, i absolutely think pardoning somebody you've never

met, have no engagement with, kind of out of the blue, is a signal being sent. i'm convinced of that. look, typically pardons are, are issued after you've been convicted, after the criminal justice process has taken place. so, that happened with libby. i think it was a signal. but now we know that he's dangled pardons among -- in front of others before the process even ended. so, i think -- >> before they were charged because that was before manafort -- right. >> during grand jury process, for god's sakes. i think the notion of getting to cohen early is probably out there and it would be the only thing i think that cohen would cling to as hope as he's facing significant prison time based on federal sentencing guidelines for bank fraud, for campaign election violations. he's got to weigh the odds there. >> and before he gets lulled into any comfort or complacency, "the new york times" reports the new york attorney general eric

snyderman has sought power to bypass presidential pardons through new legislation. just weigh in on what we're asking, frank, about what this looks like as a former federal prosecutor to have pardons in the air while an ongoing investigation is really -- with cohen in the southern district in its early stages as well as everyone in his circle thinking that there's no chance cohen can't damage the president. >> right. so, let me back up just a little bit, nicolle. cohen has allegedly said that he would take a bullet for the president. cohen has not yet had a loaded weapon pointed at him and so it's really easy to say that until you do. and so my presumption, and it's based on experience, is that all of these defendants who come into court defiant, right -- i didn't do it and i'm not talking about anyone else who might have -- flip. it happens time and time and time again. i've seen it in hundreds of cases. and so i would expect that here, too.

therefore, right, the notion that there might be a pardon in the air or a pardon in the water, that's pretty enticing. i agree with frank. it could be fact, i think it probably is, a signal. >> to chuck's point about how likely it is that cohen will flip, you look at -- this white house is not one that has loyalty in great reserves. >> let me put that up. michael flynn, george papadopoulos, rick gates, richard panetta, alex van der swan, they have all flipped. they are now cooperating witnesses in the mueller probe. >> in particular, mike flynn, donald trump seemed to really feel he had a special friendship and affinity, and they really had become tight on the campaign trail. and flynn flipped. so, if mike flynn will flip, i think -- >> let me give robert costa the last word on this. he's going to leave us after this. what is your sense, sort of the volume or the frequency of pardon conversations in jenna round the libby pardon, around the prospect of potentially

pardoning anyone else who may be a subject in this investigation? >> you have to be careful from reading too much into these things because my reporting shows that the conversations, at least that i know of, that my sources have told me about, have been limited to the scooter libby part and send a signal to some people. that was certainly the hope from some allies of president trump who have spoken with the post. at the same time, they know that john dowd, the resigned lawyer from the legal team, is very sensitive behind the scenes of being seen as someone who is even dangling pardons. the idea of dangling pardons is legally troublesome for many of these attorneys, to be messing with the criminal justice process. and so conversations, there are more allusions than conversations at time. >> robert costa, thank you so much. when we come back, the dominos are falling. that's how a new piece in the washington post today describes the news that play boy play mate karen mcdougal is now free to

tell her story about an alleged romantic relationship with donald trump, the man who may have had a hand in knocking over that first domino, michael avenatti, attorney for stormy daniels joins me next live. ♪ ♪ ♪ no matter when you retire, your income doesn't have to. see how lincoln can help ensure you still have income every month of your retirement, guaranteed, at lincolnfinancial.com.

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play [music plays]his". when everything's connected, it's simple. easy. awesome. the washington post writes today the, quote, first domino just fell in the michael cohen raid in a piece describing a settlement that allows play boy play mate karen mcdougal to tell her story about an alleged relationship with mr. trump while her legal battle was with the owner of the national

inquirer, it is pattern the with hush money and deals and intimidation tactics our next guest knows too well. michael avenatti is the attorney for a dull porn star stormy daniels, a battle mr. cohen is fighting at this hour. you made me spit coffee on myself. i'm going to read it to you and have you elaborate a little bit. see below as i have been stating for weeks, this is what happens when you pick the pink panther as your speaker. no disrespect to the pink panther, and your signature. please elaborate. >> well, you know, one of my twitter followers actually pointed out that the reference to the pink panther was a mistake because the pink panther was actually competent. it was inspector cluseau that was the incompetent one. it was probably a little too early this morning when i sent that out. but, you know, just as i said, nicolle, i've been saying this for weeks. i think three weeks ago i said that ultimately he was going to be indicted and he was going to

flip on the president. i was the first one to call it. and now, you know, people that are close to the president are telling him the same thing. i mean, i think the story in the "wall street journal" about his counsel telling the president that cohen is not even a one on a scale of one to 100 as to individuals that would protect him speaks volumes. i mean, this is a very, very serious matter for the president at this point. there's no question that michael cohen knows where many, many bodies are buried. they are going to turn him. and when they turn him, the president is going to be in a very, very bad place. and i'm going to make a prediction now. i do not think the president will serve out his term. i just don't. >> do you think he's promised a pardon to mr. cohen? raises some interesting questiont the problem here is t not happening in a and it's note

fact. so, what do i mean by that? what i mean by that is they have now effectively telegraphed, everyo knows that that is a possibility. and i have to believe that the attorney general of new york and others are going to take precautions to guard against that. federal prosecutors are not going to go through this entire pulled out from underneath them due to a presidential pardon. they're not going to do it. there is going to be some level of cooperation or communication with the new york attorney general. they are going to be very careful in the charging decisions that they make. they are going to leave some openness or some window, if you will, for the new york a.g. to charge him with a state charge so that they can guard against it. the pardon aspect only works if it takes place after the fact. after he is convicted. if no one really knew that was a

possibility. but they have set themselves up for failure yet again, in my view. >> you just said something that i just want to press you on a bit. you don't think the president will finish out his term. is that based on any knowledge you have of the kinds of things that mr. cohen has done to him, or is it based on your knowledge of the caliber of the kind of ndas that mr. cohen crafted on his behalf? >> well, it's certainly based on both. this is a serious, serious issue for the president. he knows it. michael cohen knows it. and the people that are close to him know it. >> let me play something -- i know you don't represent ms. mcdougal, but this pattern of hush money is something you and i have talked about on multiple occasions. so, let me play you something that he said and ask you to respond. >> the importance of this story is that karen came forward. she got out of the contract, and other people -- because i am sure there are other people, whether it's with trump or others -- they should know that they can come forward and there are people out there who will represent and support them.

to me, that's more important than kind of the political overtones. >> one of our early conversations was about just that, that -- and if you can just give us the latest number of women that have come forward now that you are in this line of work representing women they we restrained by nondisclosure agreements. have more women come forward? are more women hearing this message that you and mr. -- and karen mcdougal's attorney are sort of communicating, that women should know they can come forward and there are people who will represent them and support them? >> there is no question. i mean, i think that message has been received and it continues to be received. and we continue to field additional calls and inquiries from additional women. but, again, we're in the process of vetting those. i'm not in the position to vouch for their credibility. i'm going to be very careful in what i say in that regard. but i generally agree with those statements. >> so, let me ask you a weedsy legal question that may be beyond my depth here. but ms. mcdougal's attorney also

said that part of the owner of national inquirer, ami's motion to dismiss ms. mcdougal's case was to avoid pretrial discovery. the move would compel both sides to share e-mail ands other records. it could have provided information that would not be available through the material the fbi seized from mr. cohen. how much of the actions that you've seen since the raid do you think come from fear of all of these parties, everyone we started talking about, some of the tools in the president's arsenal failing him, the system of catch and kill, the national inquirer, the kind of nda that your client stormy had? how are these tools holding up? >> well, i think the tools are deteriorating by the moment. and i think that panic has begun to set in and for good reason. if i was the president, i would be incredibly panicked at this point. and it's only going to get worse. you know, i want to go back and touch on the mcdougal settlement. you know, i think the settlement was too friendly to ami

personally. i think she could have done far better. i think that they should have waited it out and engaged in some discovery. as it relates to our case, we're not going to settle this case under any circumstances. i want to reiterate this. we are not going to settle this case under any circumstances that do not involve mr. cohen and the president coming 100% clean with the american people about what happened, what he knew, when he knew it, and the list goes on. we're just not going to do it. it's never -- it's never going to happen. so, if michael cohen and the president are counting on that happening and us not getting to the bottom of it, they shouldn't because it's never going to happen. >> are you saying that you will never stop -- are you saying you want to take mr. cohen and mr. -- and the president's deposition, is that what you're saying? >> no, what i'm saying is we're going to see this case through to conclusion. it is going to include both of their depositions under oath. we are going to get to the bottom of this. all the facts. we're not going to --

>> do you think you're going to take the president's deposition, president of the united states? bob mueller can't even get an interview. no offense, but you're no bob mueller. >> actually, i think i am a bob mueller, but i'll push back on that. i don't think i'm better than bob mueller, but, you know, i'll put my skill set up against anybody. but i do think we're going to take those depositions. we're not going to be bought off. this is bigger than that. we've been saying that for weeks. if people have been watching, they know it's bigger than that. this is a search for the truth and we are going to get to the bottom of this period. >> is it part of your search for the truth to say something about mr. cohen that really struck me as strategic, for all of your harsh words about the president -- and you've been critical of mr. cohen's legal acumen. but today you described him as a devoted father. are you trying to send him the signal, hey, man, this is not worth going to jail for this guy. is that your personal belief? >> well, absolutely that's my personal belief. i especially don't think he should go to jail for the president in light of the way

the president has treated him over the last 18 months. i mean, he left him behind in new york. he didn't do anything for him as it relates to giving him a spot in the administration. he basically blew him off and kicked him to the curb. and now the guy is going to leave his family and his kids and potentially go serve time for the president? the president is not loyal to michael cohen. why should michael cohen be loyal to the president? but i meant what i said when i called him a devoted father. i understand he's an exceptional father. i understand he's a good husband. you know, at the end of the day that's what's going to matter. why should he serve time and stick up for a guy that effectively blew him off? >> i've picked up some of this, too. he did have a hope, i don't know -- he did have a hope he would be brought down to washington and rewarded for his loyalty. so did chris christie and rudy giuliani for that matter. >> he was rewarded. he was rewarded with three fbi raids, but go ahead. >> let me ask you just to step back because your predictions have pretty much all come true. so, let me ask you to do a

little bit of gazing in the crystal ball. what do you think is coming next in terms of the matters that were referred to the southern district? there's been a raid. you're back in court on monday on a somewhat separate but related case. just take us down the multiple legal paths that we're all trying to cover here in the media. >> i think within the next three months an indictment will be handed down for michael cohen, a serious indictment that will have a number of charges carrying a significant amount of time. i think michael cohen will then go through the process, if you will, that your other guests, the former u.s. attorney described, that many defendants go through. first he'll be very defiant and he'll say that he's not flipping. and then that will -- that belief will wane over time. he will begin to face reality and he will ultimately turn on the president. and i think, again, i'm going to say it right now. i do not believe this president will serve out his term. that's how serious i think this is. >> and let me just get you on

the record one more time. you know i meant no offense when i said you're no bob mueller. what needs to happen before you are in a position to depose the president of the united states in the matter between your client, stormy daniels, and the president? >> the honorable james otero needs to rule on our pending motion which is set for the first two weeks of may. >> all right. we trust that you will come back, that you'll keep us posted. >> thank you. >> michael avenatti, thank you so much for joining us. up next the president's war on justice and the latest development in the justice department's investigation into the one-time deputy director and one-time acting director actually of the fbi. you ok there, kurt? we're about to move. karate helps... relieve some of the house-buying... stress. at least you don't have to worry about homeowners insurance. call geico. geico... helps with... homeowners insurance? been doing it for years. i'm calling geico right now.

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he was fired the day before he was supposed to retire with full benefits after being taunted by the president on twitter and in person for the better part of a year over his wife's political affiliation. but for andrew mccabe, the former deputy director of the fbi, the problems may not have

ended there. a legal source familiar with the issue tells our colleague pete williams that the justice department's inspector general sent a referral to d.c.'s top prosecutor recommending a criminal charge against mccabe for lying to investigators. the panel still here as well as frank figliuzzi. frank, i start with you. >> yeah, so, look, if this is indeed true, the charge being referred or recommended is for a lack of candor during an internal inquiry. i cannot recall that ever happening in my 25-year fbi career. i also headed the office of professional responsibility adjudication unit. i was the chief inspector of the fbi during my career, and that's a new one on me. so, what i was thinking was that more likely the referral would be for unauthorized leak that mccabe actually conceded that he did -- eventually conceded that he did allow his subordinates to talk to the media and disclose the existence of the case.

that sounded much more prosecutable than lacking candor during an internal inquiry. i don't know whether he was under oath or not, but nonetheless, the remedy for that is termination, not criminal referral. so, i'm troubled by this if the reporting is correct. >> frank, a senior justice official, political appointee, holds out a lot of regard for the inspect ergen's office. but in a conversation with me said the fact that andy mccabe was cleaved apart from the broader investigation which is into the handling of the hillary clinton e-mail investigation, is still a suspicious fact. how does the fact that, that it keeps advancing without the rest of the investigation being known to the public? >> again we're looking at aberrational activity. it is odd if it is coming out of the inspector general's office. i'd want to know more about who is pulling the strings, the degree to which the a.g. may be

issuing instructions on this or some other, some other place. but this is not typical behavior. i'll go so far as to say it's unprecedented to make a criminal referral for lacking candor during an internal inquiry. >> and andy mccabe's attorneys have spoken out about the climate in which this has all gone down. an incredibly vicious political climate where andy mccabe was more than taunted. he was harassed by the president on twitter, in phone calls. he was asked, how does it feel to be married to a loser? his wife lost a political campaign. how do you separate away the climate that that building is having to function under from the outcomes that as frank just described are unprecedented? >> i don't think you can, nicolle. here's what troubles me. i know the inspector general and his staff to be, you know, men and women of integrity. these are career people. and in my experience, while they

sometimes get things wrong, they don't get it wrong for political reasons. but let's just put that aside for a minute. what you're talking about in the military would be undue command influence. not only is andy mccabe being tau tau taunted, but the person who decided to fire him is being taunted. jeff sessions is being taunted by the president. and so you have a situation, which i think is politicized, in which the president has made clear to attorney general sessions that he wants mccabe gone. now, how do you reconcile that? >> and christopher wray. it was my understanding there was pressure on the hand picked director to make these changes immediately. >> in the fbi -- frank would know this better than me because he actually worked in the unit that handled this. there are career people at the head of opr, for instance, who review the inspector general's work and make a recommendation. that recommendation then goes to

main justice, the department of justice where another career official reviews it. jeff sessions, in the letter that he issued after he fired andy mccabe, referenced this chain of career people. but nevertheless, there is this undue command influence issue, nicolle, and that bothers me a lot. >> and this war on the justice department is a hot war. it looks to me like the plays are being called by fox news, not by the president himself, but he gleefully carries out the orders. one of them has been an almost unprecedented sharing of internal memos about an ongoing investigation. i think the chairman of the house judiciary committee, frank, is going to be given access to some of the comey memos. just weigh in on whether that's normal. >> yeah, so, look, i'm a big believer in transparency in government and the old cliche that sunshine is the best

disinfectant. when it comes to classified documents, when it comes to the inner workings of counter intelligence operations and how the fbi investigates folks, especially when some things are still ongoing, this is extremely troubling. and i have to make the distinction between congressional oversight and congressional retaliation and retribution. and that's what troubles me the most, is the understanding that operations might be changed, might not ever be entered into in the first place because of concern that eventually someone on the hill is going to ask for this technique, this method, this discussion that takes place, and everything is going to get exposed. and then why even take the career risk of going forward with it in the first place? that's the long-term damage that i'm concerned about. we may get through this and this administration, but the perception of the bureau, the d.o.j., the attacks on it, will have long-lasting repercussions. >> and this is not a new story. let me show you jim jordan pressing jeff sessions, the politically appointed attorney

general, hand picked by donald trump, back in november. this is a long war, and i want to ask everybody at the table who they think is winning. let's watch. >> you can have your idea, but sometime we have to study what the facts are and to evaluate whether it meets the standard -- >> we know one fact. we know the clinton campaign, the democrat national committee paid for through the law firm, paid for the dossier. we know that happened. and it sure looks like the fbi was paying the author of that document -- >> i would say looks like is not enough basis to appoint a special counsel. >> are you worried that the republicans now are at war against the republicans running the department of justice in a way where justice is getting lost? >> well, yes. and they are. you pull the frame back a little bit. what is the big issue we're going to be facing? is anyone above the law? what is the future of the rule of law? the respect for these institutions?

and we've moved from the question of whether republicans in congress would actually protect the independence of the justice department and the integrity of the independent counsel. now they are actively -- >> because we know the answer, no. >> it's gone beyond that now. guys like jim jordan are actively undermining this investigation. they are actively now colluding in the attacks on independence of the justice department and of the mueller investigation. >> why? >> and that is extraordinary. well, it's a very interesting question because it's one thing for folks to say we want tax cuts, we want regulatory reform or conservative judges. but this, this active complicity in the obstruction of justice has nothing to do with conservative values, conservative agenda. >> what did they do, did they all go to moscow and -- >> i don't know. >> seriously, what is it? give me five possibilities. >> i have to say one of the more disappointing parts of this is that speaker paul ryan, who of course is going to -- has a

legacy to look back on -- he has green-lit some of this. some of what is going on in the house of representatives. and i don't know how he can justify that on agenda terms, on the terms of the longer agenda. >> josh, he looked christopher wray in the eye and said i have grave concerns about the nunes memo coming out. he said, sorry, it's going out. more than green lit it. he has overruled republican appointees running what used to be independent law enforcement agencies. >> yes, they are circling the wagons around donald trump. >> why? >> it's difficult to get inside their head. i think they think as long as he is there they can still pass pieces of legislation that he will sign. they haven't, but everyone they passed he signed. i think some of this also has to do with just the tribal nature much our politics. that guy is on our team and we are going to -- >> >> yea, yea -- >> i don't want this to get lost. we have to remember, we have to keep in mind what andy mccabe is accused of leaking is not information that was damaging to

donald trump. he was accused of leaking information and correcting the record and saying, no, no, no, the fbi is, in fact, continuing to investigate the clinton foundation. this is information leaked weeks before the election. it is this whole notion of a conspiracy inside the fbi against donald trump is an utter sham. >> can i add one thing to it, though? so, that is true. as is the fact that kellyanne conway this week said that jim comey was the man that turned the election in her direction. >> yes. >> that because of jim comey, the man they're out calling a loser and slime ball, they won. so they're so corrupt that they hurt hillary clinton in the "wall street journal" and made donald trump win? >> it's amazing. the reason i get personally fired up about this -- >> you're fired up? >> as charlie was saying, there are these very strict norms that are in place to avoid even the appearance of political influence on the judicial

process, on the criminal justice process. we were in the midst of a historic presidential election in which the democratic nominee, who was endorsed by the sitting democratic president of the united states was under an fbi criminal investigation and there were leaks left and right that were damaging to her. and time and time again, i and the president were in positions where we asked about that investigation and we would decline to comment. because of our commitment, not because we didn't want hillary clinton to win the election, but because of our commitment to these kinds of values. and it's troubling to see it degrading to such degree. >> this is one of the things you may disagree with. i ask the question is anybody above the law. in many ways if the president wants to, he can be above the law. he can use his pardon authority 0 or violate all of these norms. our system of government is set up in many ways as an honor system because it presumes they will honor those norms and there are honorable men and women sitting in that position. now we are faced with this issue, what, in fact, if you have somebody who doesn't have reexpect for those norms who is

not honorable. >> i have to get you in on this. >> thank you. so, the president -- nobody is above the law. the constitution provides that the president has pardon authority. >> right. >> so, exercising that authority is not exercising a power above the law. it's exercising a power within the law. that said, it's the norms that matter so much. and to josh's point and to yours, those have been violated. when i worked at the department of justice, main justice, we had these incredibly strict rules for who could communicate with the white house and how it would be done. >> i remember from the white house act. >> you can count on one hand the number of people who were permitted to make those communications and we took that really seriously because if you don't, bad things happen. >> well, the other argument -- i have lots of conversations -- >> i like fired up josh. keep going, come on. >> you can imagine what this is like. >> yeah. >> in may -- >> what was it like? i can't. >> there's an earlier stage to this.

i don't want to get too sidetracked. there was an earlier stage to this. before secretary clinton had even announced her campaign, she was in all this turmoil about the -- about her server and the knowledge of that server being made public. there was no one who was in a position to answer questions about it. it's not like the clinton campaign was doing daily briefings to answer questions. >> you were. >> i had hours of questions with white house lawyers. you can't say that, you can't defend her about that. you can't suggest you have any knowledge of the fbi investigation because, guess what, we don't have any knowledge of the fbi investigation. the one thing that they said that i found to be particularly persuasive was that the more that we invest in the independence of the investigation, if the investigation concludes that there is no wrongdoing, then people will believe it. and that is the other thing that has changed here. we are now in a position where we don't automatically reflex i havely -- reflexively believe -- >> i have to give frank

figliuzzi the last word. that's a conversation you and i have all the time. what is the danger to the fbi and in particular the fbi agents all over the country and all over the world if what josh says is the case really does become the new normal under donald trump? >> so, look, to boil this down to the core concern i have is this administration is causing us to actually question the truth. we are getting to the point where we won't even be able to recognize truth. and what's the fbi all about? getting to the truth. what's a u.s. attorney's office all about? getting to the truth. if the public is questioning and can't even figure out what the truth is any more, then we're in sad, sad shape. >> frank, i know we invited you for a little visit. we kept you for the whole meal. we're so grateful. thank you so much for spending so much time with us. when we come back, the president rolls the dice on little rocketman. after proving to the world that he couldn't even keep the pregame show a state secret. that's next. i'm not a bigwig.

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it's so funny to see how excited president trump is about finally getting something right. as you heard, everyone who will works for trump was trying to keep the kim jong-un meeting under wraps. but trump being trump just couldn't keep it to him. he tweeted about it and then just watching the way trump couldn't hold it in is probably the funniest thing i have seen all day. >> are you going to be speaking directly with them, sir? >> yes. [ laughter ] >> oh, man. oh, wow. he was trying so hard. he was trying so hard but he couldn't help -- you could see. he was like be presidential -- be presidential -- be presidential -- yes. we, we talked to him, 3:00 p.m. on tuesday in a secret location.

>> sorry. trump seems confident and excited going into the upcoming summit. viewing the north korea summit as his quote great man of history moment. and he thinks he alone can i don't have come the disaster on the peninsula. he thinks, just get me in the room with the guy and i'll figure it out. this is unchartered territory for the nation. morning joe warning it won't be that easy. >> i think president trump somehow feels he will walk n slap the table like he is selling a building in manhattan, and walk out the door to collect his nobel peace prize. ain't gonna happen that way. this is gob to be a process that has to unfold. >> and it sort of has to be secret at least. well, i hope that president trump didn't hear the question, perhaps, when he said that he had talked directly with kim

jong-un, because it was mike pompeo. i hope he wouldn't be spouting off incorrect facts like that, that the ap -- the white house staff had to immediately press back on and say no, no, no, it was actually mike pompeo. my fear is that these talks don't go well and then where are we left? we are left with only the military option because we plunged into the process head first and he was really counting on his extraordinary ability as a deal maker to do what no one has ever been able to do when it comes to koreans and concessions and so we end up with the worst option. >> let me quick to you, we are all rooting for him to actually get this one right. i mean, what the north koreans did to otto warmbier is a horror and a tragedy. i believe there are three more americans being held hostage by this horrific regime. but what's so ludicrous is that each the most grave thing, one the details are not -- as you

said, he was asked if he had talked to him. he turned around and said yes. white house later said he misspoke. i hope that's the case. i hope they are not cell phone buddies yet. but the other is, this really is an arena where if you hadn't voted for george w. bush or president obama, you certainly hoped when they went toe to toe with rogue murderous dictators that america came out on top. but even this trump seems to not take seriously. >> the good news about the pompeo visit was at least they were doing some preparation, at least they were doing some diplomacy. because the big concern was that he was going to wing it of the because he doesn't have a reputation for doing his homework, lining to and getting the details about the complex issues. then when you see this report about the great man moment. that is the frightening moment. lisa is absolutely right. the concern is what do you do if you are the great man who doesn't get what he wants? does he go show he has a bigger

missile than the other great man? the downside is considerable. a meeting is not a success, even an agreement is not a success. the reality will be the success and this ego and this sense of this grandiosity on an issue like this is kind of frightening. >> the other line of this is this is not also one of those things where you can say we will cut a deal and let somebody else work out the details. the devil, very literally is in the details in a situation like this. >> the devil is in the room. >> it is. what you need is you need months of preparation, you need nuclear security experts who can go in and valley exactly the state of the program and what kind of protections can be put in place. a handshake agreement is not going to cut night we have to sneak in our last break. we'll be right back.

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my thanks to charlie sikes, elise jordan, a fired up josh earnest, which i could to the get enough of. i wish we had another hour. and a some day to be fired up chuck roeszenberg. that does it for our hour. i'm nicolle wallace, "mtp daily" starts right now with chuck todd. >> if chuck gets fired up that would scare me. >> let me rephrase that, and a never to be fired up we hope chuck rosenberg. hi chuck. >> if it's thursday we delve into the great unknowns. ♪ >> good evening. welcome to "mtp daily" i'm chuck todd back mere in washington. the more we know about the