my thanks to charlie sikes, elise jordan, a fired up josh earnest, which i could to the get enough of. i wish we had another hour. and a some day to be fired up chuck roeszenberg. that does it for our hour. i'm nicolle wallace, "mtp daily" starts right now with chuck todd. >> if chuck gets fired up that would scare me. >> let me rephrase that, and a never to be fired up we hope chuck rosenberg. hi chuck. >> if it's thursday we delve into the great unknowns. ♪ >> good evening. welcome to "mtp daily" i'm chuck todd back mere in washington. the more we know about the

russia investigation the more we realize how much we don't know. the best explanation for where we are was actually made more than 16 years ago. >> reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me because, as we know, there are known knowns, there are thing we know we know. but we also know there are known unknowns, that is to say, we know there are some things we do not know. but there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know. >> come on. that's one of the greatest spin lines ever. let's take the lead and let's start with the most important of the known knowns in the russia investigation. here's what we know. 19 people have already been charged with crimes, including the president's former national security adviser, former campaign chairman and two former campaign advisors. we know the trump campaign met with a russian operative in trump tower. we know the dnc and john

podesta's e-mail accounts were hacked. we know wikileaks published the hacks dnc and podesta e-mails. we know president trump adamantly denies any collusion between his campaign and russia. >> there was no collusion. classifies no collusion with russia, other than by the democrats. this is a hoax. as far as the investigation, nobody has ever been more transparent. >> but whether there was actual collusion, well that goes on the list of known unknowns. despite what the president says, we don't know if trump campaign officials clued with russia. there is some success spig. there is some circumstantial evidence but we don't know. if we did, we don't know if mr. trump knew about it. we also don't know whether michael cohen will flip on president trump. politico and the "wall street journal" report that trump -- am of his advisors are warning that cohen could end up cooperating with the feds.

we don't know what we will learn from the fbi raid on cohen. could be weeks before the legal hoops are cleared for that evidence to officially make its way into the hand of the investigators. and we don't know up how of the steele dossier will end up being corroborated and we don't know whether the president will fire mueller or rosenstein. however, he didn't seem to rule it out again last night. >> they have been saying i'm going to get rid of them for the last three months, four months, five months. and they are still here. so we want to get the investigation over with, done with, put it behind us. >> a pretty clever non-answer there by the president. we don't know if congress will act to protect robert mueller from being removed by the president and we don't know what if anything michael flynn gave mueller's team to get an

extraordinarily sweetheart of a plea deal. finally we have our unknown unknowns. it can be summed up with one word, mueller. we deny know whatway don't know. papadopoulos wasn't on anybody's rye darr before the special counsel announced he had made a deal with him. we don't know how many george papadopouloss robert mueller is sitting on. the special counsel's team has kept such a tight lid on things that when it comes to potential evidence and charges they could have, we actually don't know. and let's not out there speculate that we do. joining me now, mark warner the vice chair of the senate intelligence committee which is leading its own investigation into the russian interference in the 2016 election. i'm guessing he knows some of these unknowns. senator warner welcome back to the show. >> thank you chuck. and there were certain thing as you went through that list -- i thought it was comprehensive that you didn't know. we know for a fact that the heads of the fbi, the cia, the

nsa, the whole intelligence community came to a conclusion over a year ago that the russian intervention in the 2016 election was to favor trump and to hurt clinton. and that was commissioned at the highest levels of the russian government. we also know that all of the trump appointees to the fbi and other positions have reinforced that same conclusion. and we know -- you mentioned mr. papadopoulos. that there are beyond the june meeting with the russian operative, that there were a series of outreach efforts by the russians to at least trump affiliates that are now published. and the final thing we know is that today versus even seven or eight months ago, the volume -- and this is not even talking about the things that i would know that the listening audience doesn't. >> right. >> but that the volume of contacts between russians and trump officials, if it's all

coincidence, it is a statistical anomaly in terms of the number of contacts. >> i want to unpack something. i love that you picked up on our theme there and added some. you said that there were a series of attempted contacts with trump affiliates. is this information your investigation has uncovered? or is this something you have been briefed on by mueller? >> if we would just point out that what is in the public domain, we know that there was outreach to mr. papadopoulos. we know there was outreach in this famous touch tower merump . we know there was at least some communication between trump confidante stone and assange. i'm referring to what is already on the record publicly. at this point i'll just leave it at that. >> fair enough. let me ask you about michael

kohn. how integral is he to your investigation? he came before your committee i believe in october. what did you learn from him? >> no, it was much later. again, i'm not going to comment on the specifics of any single witness. mr. cohen did come in and testify. he had made a commitment that he would come back and testify before the whole committee. most of our preliminary questioning is done by the staff, not by the senators. i for one would still like to get him in front of the whole senate committee and ask him questions. that may be a little bit more difficult to do now that his case has been criminally referred. >> yeah. >> but i still hold out some hope. >> do you consider him an sbe ral part of the russia investigation or not. >> i believe that the level of legal scrutiny and this is from actual legal experts to go in and make a referral -- remember,

this was referred from mueller to the southern district of new york. >> yeah. >> to make that referral that then had to go through a judge issuing a subpoena that would actually deal with a lawyer/client privilege -- that's a pretty darn high bar, a much higher bar than a traditional subpoena as experts have told me. clearly there are a series of prosecutors and at least one judge that i believe wouldn't have issued that subpoena if they didn't think he was critically important to the overall case. >> i understand that. but i guess the question is, what case are rereferring to here? that's what i'm asking. do you believe michael cohen is a critical portion of the investigation into russia collusion? >> i think there is plenty of public evidence, again, that michael cohen, felix saider, and others were involved in a series of conversations about a trump tower project in moscow. there are lots of other reports about where mr. cohen may have been or may not have been during

the campaign. i'm to the going to comment on any of those. but i think that -- i'm not going to comment on any of those. i think as this all wind out that clearly mr. cohen has been known as kind of mr. trump's fixer on a variety of projects business and otherwise and i think he has a lot to tell. >> so if you have -- if you can't get mr. cohen to come back before the committee, does it mean you are going to have an incomplete investigation? >> well, we're trying to take our investigation chunk by chunk. the first chunk we took on was election security. we also know that the russians intervened at least touched 21 states' electoral systems and we're almost a year and a half after the to 16 election and this white house has still not made ate priority to make sure that our voting systems are safe. so thank goodness the senate intelligence committee in a bipartisan way came out with recommendations. we got some money in the budget. we actually got a recommendation to make sure there is a paper

trail on every machine. again, a thing we know. the next stage will be referencreferenclooking at social media. we are still seeing witnesses. at the same time you have obviously got the mueller investigation moving as its own pace as well. >> i was going to say it feels as if the mueller investigation is just in another -- it's in another lane here. do you think your investigation will ever be as complete as mutualers? or is mueller the investigation and you guys are the almost -- you are there to figure out what is the congressional response. >> well, i think we are there to to do a counter-intelligence investigation. russia intervened. we want to find out how they did it, how we prevent it and we wanted to find out whether russia clued or had any kind of combination with either campaign, particularly the trump campaign. and clearly mueller has pointed

out as well as some of the investigation we had that there were at least outreach efforts. we also know that firms like cambridge analytic that have a rather sketchy history were used by the trump campaign in terms of social media. they also have done some work in countries all around the world. >> right. >> mueller clearly has a bunch of tools that we don't have. he can threaten with you a subpoena. threaten you with criminal justice sanctions. he has indicted 19 people. i think he has tools and will go in a criminal direction that will probably be more extensive than what we have. but we have a lot of information that ultimately i hope will get out to the public. >> since you and i have been talking did -- >> that's one of the reasons why it's so critically important, chuck that is correct we let mr. mueller finish, that the president not fire mueller, not fire rod rosenstein. this guy -- mr. trump continues the say there is no there there, well then let the investigation continue. >> speaking of rod rosenstein, mueller -- the president since you and i started talking has a

new lawyer. rudy giuliani has confirmed just told the "washington post," he says i'm doing it because i hope we can negotiate a end to this for the good of the country and because i have a high regard for the president and for bob mueller. any reaction to the president tapping rudy jailiany for his legal team? -- giuliani for his legal team? >> this legal team seems to expand and contract on the president tweetage. no comment on mr. giuliani. >> on rosenstein, alan dershowitz made a case to flee and made the case to others that he thinks that rod rosenstein should have to recuse himself at least on the obstruction part of this because he wrote the memo that recommended firing comey. he would be a witness. how can he oversee the probe? what's your take on that? >> well, i went to law school, actually had alan dershowitz as a teacher.

he's a smart guy. but i think that legal experts that i have heard from do not believe mr. rosenstein would need to recuse himself at all. no one has raised this theory until very recently. i think, you know, mr. rosenstein was put in place -- remember, mr. rosenstein was a life-long justice department officials and long term republican appointee. he was put in as someone to try to insulate when sessions had to recuse himself. i don't think rosenstein needs to. >> okay. >> one of my biggest concerns right now, chuck, though is with mr. trump and his allies you have got these broad based attacks against the overall integrity of the fbi, the overall sbig rest of the justice department. my theory is we are going to end up in a place where people start deciding which laws they want to follow and which they don't. that's why mueller and rosenstein need to stay in place and the investigation needs to finish. >> romcconnell says he decides what goes on the floor and he

alone will not allow the mueller protection bill on the floor. >> i hope that the chairman of the judiciary committee marks up this legislation. i think it would get broad bipartisan support. virtually every republican i have talked to has said gosh, they think if trump fired mueller it would be the end of his presidency. if they feel that way let's protect mueller and put it in a statute. >> you voted any on mike pompeo for cia director. have you made a decision on mike pompeo as secretary of state? >> i have not. i have had a good working relationship with mike pompeo as cia director. >> what's the case against him? why is cia okay for you but not state? >> this is a challenging time when mr. -- congressman then pompeo was hired to run an agency that didn't have to deal necessarily with diplomacy. some of his comments in the past -- i think he has tried to correct some of those but i'm still wrestling with this. i mean at this moment in time when this president is so

erratic on important fool policy, we need a steadying hand. jim mattis is. i'm concerned mr. pompeo would be a steadying hands. john bolton and others brought in i do not believe are steadying hands. >> if not him, who? >> under that -- that is something i'm laying as well. if not him, who else would the president come forward with? >> okay. >> but under that reasoning -- i've actually voted for vast majority of mr. trump's appointees including mr. tillerson for example, and got grief for it. i thought he would bring more balance. unfortunately he wasn't able to execute as well as i had hoped. >> mark warner, vice chair of the senate intelligence committee, the democratic face of that probe. thanks for coming on to share your views. >> thank you chuck. >> ahead, comey's challenge, how to which it size president trump

without seeming like a partisan. as he is finding out it's much easier said than done. and we are helping you navigate the complicated russia investigation story. you don't have to do known knowns with this one. check out our interactive time line with the key players and find out how they all fit together. go to nbc.com/russian time line. delivery should look like this. crisp leaves of lettuce, freshly-made dressing. clean food that looks this good, eaten at your desk.

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what's missing there, an apostrophe s. he hasn't been endorsed by trump or pence. it's technically correct. it's like reading the fine print. and the "associated press" is reading that the trump 2020 campaign is not so happy about this. vice president pence's last job was governor of indiana. and row kieta is known for carrying a cut out. and he likes to hit his opponent for being a never trumper. the row kieta campaign told us quote we do not comment on yard sign strategy. the vote is going to be held on may 8th. can't everybody pretend to be neighborly until then? he will be back.

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the panel joins me now, carol lee, lonnie chen. good the see you visiting the east coast here. and ruth marcus. rudy giuliani. >> yes. >> all right. the president has been looking to solidify his team. former u.s. attorney from the southern district of new york. so that experience must matter. >> yeah. he understands that kind of -- that world. he's also very close to trump. he had been, you know, in the running for certain cabinet positions, secretary of state during transition. trump -- there was talk that he wanted the replace jeff sessions perhaps with rudy giuliani. he has wanted him in his orbit but also the president was at a point where he was desperate for anybody really to sign on to his legal team who has heft. interestingly, his comments are very conciliatory towards robert mueller. >> and measured. >> very measured.

>> not the rudy we have been seeing. this was him circa 2008. >> somehow, i think we are going to see some of the footage of him at the convention when i think the spittel was flying as he was talking about hillary clinton. when you are looking for a lawyer yes you want a lawyer with experience, you want a lawyer with experience in that job n that district where you may be having some issues. but you also want a lawyer who is more sober-minded than the client, more restrained than the client. i worry that despite this smart conciliatory language they could end up spinning each other up. >> i will take an opposite tack. jay sekulow can't tell the president that's a stupid idea. rudy giuliani can say that's a stupid idea, mr. president, in legal strategy. >> he has stature and he has been on the record saying the mueller investigation you had at to be allowed to run its course. i think this is a very important point in that if he sticks to

that point of view i think it will be a healthy point of view to bring into that orbit because it's not clear everything b everybody else is going to be able to as you say talk the president back. >> that's the point i see in this. rudy would be like whoa, whoa, you don't want to do that. >> he understands the law and the politics, both. >> and he has the benefit of being someone the president is familiar with. he was around the campaign all the time. which also raises other questions about whether he fits in in terms of legal strategy, mutualer. >> that's where i want to get to in this. rudy was rumor amongering, stirring the pot. i hear, my sources in the fbi tell me this of the he was the whispering of what's coming with clinton and. and he had -- there is that side of rudy, which is i guess what you were assuming could company. conspiracy theorist. >> not the sober minded lawyerly counsellor type that you would

be looking for. which rudy would you be getting? >> rudy is sort of an unofficial campaign person may actually know debate be more involved or knowledgeable, knowledgeable of what happened during the campaign. >> he certainly has insight into that. and he has a lot of equity in trump world which is going to be helpful not just in dealing with the president but also folks around the president. the interesting question here is is there a game of chess going on in terms of jeff sessions and what might be happening with jeff sessions going forward, shuffling around the department of justice. >> do you think he is auditioning? >> i don't know if he is auditioning knowingly or not. but let's put all the cards on the table. >> i think if you wanted to be attorney general this would be a very bad career move for rudy giuliani if he has his eye on that prize. that's going to make it a little

more difficult. >> i don't want to get into the confirmation story right now with you they are struggling to get nasa officials with 50 votes. giuliani is ott not going to get 50 votes. the mccabe story, what is interesting is apparently the ig's office made the criminal referral months ago. >> yeah. >> somebody decided to leak it today. >> yeah. >> from the justice department. >> interesting, huh? >> what else is happening. rod rosenstein is being threatened with either contempt of congress or all of this -- there is something here. >> you sort of get this feeling with the president tamping down on -- you heard his press conference. he didn't rule it out but everyone around him has been saying this has been on hold, we talked him off the ledge and those people who wanted him to be more aggressive are sidelined or not getting their say as much. some of this could be coming from folks who want to stir thing up and have a more combative kind of approach. >> mccabe. does that give the president

something to make him feel better about rosenstein and -- >> possibly. i mean, look, there is a lot of -- the ig report is very bad for mccabe, obviously. there is stuff in there that the president certainly can use. >> by the way this complicates the jim comey book tour. he gets asked about it all the time. >> takes him off message. >> and comey has not nice things to say about rudy giuliani in that book. because he worked in that office. >> have to get in line. >> i was going to say, the comey enemies list is growing. >> he certainly -- it's greg on both sides. >> uh-huh. >> that's what makes him such an interesting figure and unique right now. >> i want to go to the investigation. we are all caught up in the michael cohen thing but i want to ask about older aspects of this. that is michael flynn and george papadopoulos. they got amazing deals. michael flynn really got an amazing deal. the reason i introduce this is what did they give in return?

they both pled guilty to lying to the fbi which actually means they are not credible witnesses technically, right, a flawed witness. >> impeachment. >> in the non-u.s. congress sense. what is it that they got that they were able to materially -- do we think that flip and papadopoulos give them material evidence. >> legal certs say they have to have something really significant. particularly flynn because we wasn't just lying to the fbi. that was not his only offense that he was potentially facing. there was a whole other realm of much more serious potential charges. so yes he would have to have something very serious. early on, after flynn was fired, his lawyer said, michael flynn has a story to tell. and he indicated that he has a lot. clearly, if you are robert mueller you are not going to cut that kind of a deal with michael flynn if he doesn't have something significant. >> a month ago mike flynn was

campaigning for a guy running for congress in california. he was in the deal of this cooperation deal with mueller. you would assume he got permission to speak at a event like this. what does flynn have that mueller was like okay go ahead, do that. >> this is a mystery that some day we will have the answer to. i talked to experience justice department officials some of whom make the argument since he got such a good deal he must have something to give mueller. others saying it was an indication that mueller couldn't really find very much on him. >> i heard that said. or hey, he had a distinguished career the max he is going to get is six months. >> some day we will know. >> an unknown unknown. >> add it to the list. >> we know he has something. we know he gave them something. we just don't know what it is.

thanks for playing my known sbsh unknown dame. stick around ahead, the battle over mike pompeo's nomination for secretary of state. you just heard a democrat who vote for him at the cia, not ready to do it at state. my day starts well before

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welcome back. pretty much no one was surprised when president trump lashed out at former fbi director james comey after his new book came out. but comey's attacks on the president are more extraordinary. as noah feldman puts it quote, comey's efforts embody a paradox. on one hand he wants to reassert the authority of the non-partisan non-politicized community of which he is a life long emin. on the other hand comey he opens himself to being seen as a pure partisan of the it is a tricky balance. you doesn't want to remain silent but speaking out leads trump's defenders to question his credibility. it's not kmus comey caught in the trap. law enforcement, us in the news

industry, remain silent and look like you are acquiescing. speak up and you are attack as a partisan. joining us now the president of a public relations firm in michigan. he left journalism so he claims which makes iman ombudsman to tell us all what to do now. mr. fournier, thank you for joining us. >> how are you doing? >> i'm good. i think this kmum probably hits you the way it hits me. i thought it was a smart observation. >> yes. >> it is a trap. i always tell people i am aware it's the a trap. it doesn't matter. the trap was built around me. i didn't walk into it. it just is. >> look, we all have rights, often obligations as citizens to question institutions to question the presidency when we think the president is hurting the country or not doing things right. whether you are pro trump or anti-trump, that's our right and even a responsibility. i think the bigger problem here is that our institutions,

including the presidency and the justice department are under attack first by just the forces of change. our country and society is changing so fast that our institutions aren't keeping up with us. and you have two parties that wage asymmetrical warfare against the institutions when it suits their needs. that's going on in a big way, i think the. >> how does any institution remain non-partisan without remaining silent? >> well, is it our obligation to remain non-partisan or is it our obligation to speak truth to power, to express our point of view? i think as a citizen -- comey is a citizen now. he is not an institution he has a right and obligation to speak up. so do people who are supporting trump. the real problem is what is being done to the institutions of the presidency and the jis department when you have attacks coming from political parties and other institutions. don't you think? >> it seems -- well, it does.

it seems that the trap comey -- comey did fall into a trap. he saw the partisan attacks. and he saw himself. >> right. >> as like i have got to broke this institution. and he overcorrected. like to me, the comey -- frankly i think some of us in the media to the same thing sometimes. i think i have made this mistake sometimes, where you overcorrect to try to calm the criticism. >> yeah. if you lean so hard trying to not be -- to try to push back on the perception that you are being too fair, you know, that can have its rebound effect where you are not fair. but there is nothing wrong -- i hope we never get to the point where it's wrong to criticize the president or it's wrong to criticize a government. it's never our obligation to be non-partisan for the sake of being none partisan. not as a private citizen.

in the media i think that's our obligation. as a reporter i think you work hard to do that. i think the justice department certainly should be non-partisan. but the social media, comey put his neck out there. it's getting chopped off but suspect that what a citizen is supposed to do. >> i think the problem is we have a feedback loop that doesn't alu for nuance or gray area. >> that's for sure. >> that's the -- we know what the problem is, but nobody seems to have a solution for it. noah feldman didn't. it was my frustration with his column. >> and you and i started our career when we were gatekeepers, there was a common set of facts a common truth, a common sense of shame. that is all gone. i don't know how you put the toothpaste back in the tube. even comey in 2006, a different era, he was seen by all of us -- he was seen by the gatekeepers as somebody who was non-partisan and did the right thing with ashcroft. now no matter what he does he is

going to be attacked by one side because he has gone too far or not far enough. we don't have the gatekeeper mentality and everybody is a publisher and going to attack everybody who doesn't take their side. yes he is in that trap. >> what is interesting, comey yesterday is saying he has some regrets on some of the personal shots he has taken at president trump. take a listen. >> yeah. >> >> if i had it to do over again i wouldn't put that paragraph in even though just because it gave people a hand hold who hadn't read the book to attack the book. >> this is my -- this goes to that other phenomenon here. look, comey did what he did on announcing the clinton non-charges at the time because he thought he was going to try to keep the fbi above politics. but he made a political decision to go above politics. even there in his regret he is saying i only regret it because others are using it.

>> he is tied up in in knots. to my point, you had in that same election for several weeks you had the democratic party attacking comey and for several weeks you had the republican part attacking comey. you want win for losing when we have this asymmetrical warfare against the institutions. when comey represented the institution he was getting it from all sides. >> what would you tell a young journalist today. >> go into journalism. it is a hell of a way to make a living, to be able to speak truth to power. and you develop a set of skills to take a lot of different places. i decided to take mine home to michigan and advocate for people and causes i believe in. >> it's good the see you virtually. i look forward to catching up to you in person soon. >> play some ball. you got it. up ahead, president trump often says a lot of people didn't know that. did you know that? we knew that. that's next. be sure to watch rachel maddow

tonight. former fbi director james comey joins her live in studio. live interviews become very revealing. it's one on one tonight at candidate p.m. eastern on rachel mado to. we'll be right back. company. get it for jean who's always cold. for the sales team, it and the warehouse crew. give us the data we need. in one place, anywhere we need it. help us do our jobs better. with domo we can run this place together. well that's that's your job i guess. ♪ today's senior living communities have never been better, with amazing amenities like movie theaters, exercise rooms

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>> south korea is meeting and has plans to meet with north korea to see if they can end the war. people don't realize, the korean war has not ended. it's going on right now. >> we didn't know that a lot of people didn't know that. so we did some checking and found there is a lot that people didn't know. >> france is america's first and oldest ally. a lot of people don't know that. people don't know what great warriors they are in france. people don't realize canada has been very rough on the united states. people don't know it, canada is very smooth. people don't realize we have 20 terrorist groups. thousands of motorcycles which a lot of people don't know. 1,000 semi tractor trailers. people don't realize that. the empire state building, they built it in one year. nobody knows that. people don't believe that people department know what a community college means. a lot of people don't know. people don't realize. a lot of people didn't know. what people don't realize.

a lot of people don't realize. most people don't know. a lot of people don't know it. a lot of people -- i wasn't even sure. >> god, we love the president syntax. come on. in a moment we are going to have another segment because this "mtp daily" is an hour long. people don't know that it's actually 44 minutes. turns out a lot of people don't know that either. we'll be right back. better, faster"

by daft punk is heard throughout.) (sound of typing) (sound of exhaling) (sound of drilling) jimmy (shouting): james! brand vo: the world's largest workforce works for themselves. we work for them. quickbooks. backing you.

a farmer's market.ve what's in this kiester. a fire truck. even a marching band. and if i can get comfortable talking about this kiester, then you can get comfortable using preparation h. for any sort of discomfort in yours. preparation h. get comfortable with it. time now for the lid. mike pompeo needs at least one democrat to support his secretary of state bid. he found it. senator heidi heitkamp says she's a yes. she ended the uncertainty after rand paul's team said he would remain firm. panel is back. i said i didn't want to get down to this confirmation road before. we are there now. we were talking, if not -- you know, okay, you are going to get rid of pompeo, then what. lonnie, but to me, i assumed

that the number one most likely cross overon this would heitkamp. >> difficult, particularly if you voted for him before. the positions are similar enough. cia, and secretary of state i don't think the subdistinctions are clear enough that if you are heidi heitkamp you can suffer of now voting against a nominee in an election year where you are going to have a tough time. >> what we are seeing here is this evidence in the same way has the obama and clinton administrations were criticized by the right, everything is the enemy and you have to be against everything. that's growing as a progressive mind-set, pompeo, if you don't stand up to him because he doesn't have the right position on same sex marriage or social just issues -- and mccaskell

needs the base and also needs the look bipartisan. that's a box. >> i was looking just before we got back on the air at the heitkamp response on twitter. and the base is furious. >> right. >> they are not going to get happier. they are going to get more furious. >> in her state, it's not a big base. >> right. it's the right political decision for her, it may be the right substantive decision for her, but it is illustrative of the broader point you're making. >> she also tried to put on the diplomacy, this north korea trip. and coming out at this time almost softened him in a way that made it a little bit okay. because he's showing that he's doing -- >> i don't think it was a coincidence we learned about pompeo's trip to north korea in the middle of his confirmation debate. >> the president was itching to tell people about that. >> lots going on on this show today. just saying. >> no, i think it's the best case to confirm him.

they're not wrong. >> that he's committed to empoweri empowering diplomats and diplomacy. >> it's a live audition for the job. it makes it harder for heitkamp and donnelly to vote against it. >> can't we just talk about the larger confirmation issue that is now -- and we're going to get into who broke the senate, right? harry reid broke the senate. no, mitch mcconnell broke the senate. no, robert bork broke the senate. i could keep going. ruth, it's ridiculous. nobody can get anything through. obama struggled in his last two years, just out of pure politics, and now trump ace not going to get any new cabinet members. it's very difficult. the good news for scott pruitt today is watching pompeo struggle. because at the end of the day -- >> scott pruitt needs some good news there. >> firing him, are they ever going to replace him? that may be why the white house say, you get to stay. >> the republicans do still have a majority in the senate.

>> they don't have a working majority right now. >> but to complain about the broken senate is, it's true, and i was there for all the breaks that you're talking about. but it's also true and somebody like secretary of state, you actually want to see that person confirmed by a significant margin. it's better for our country. >> i'm sorry we got rid of the 50. you could make an argument -- >> the 60. >> -- the big four, big five, throw in homeland, the big five, because they're so important opini they need broad-base support in their jobs. maybe it should be mandatory at 60. >> i don't know. if this is broken, that would be -- is there something beyond broken? shattered? >> i think the bigger problem is we're spending so much time on lower level confirmations. nasa administrator, deputy

secretary of xyz. why don't we do the 30 hours -- >> some would argue some haven't been very qualified. brightstein, there's a lot of people that aren't happy with that one. on policy, it has nothing to do with left, right. >> i think the majority of them have been quite qualified. >> we should look at the broad number of senate positions that are up for senate confirmation and we should widhittle them do to the ones we care about. >> that may be the point. there's maybe too many of these things go through the senate. >> yes. it's nuts where we get this sort of bottleneck happening. but i don't -- i think that part of it is what you're talking about, and some of these people are not qualified, so it gives democrats a reason to, you know, block the president's v.a. secretary, for instance. what's going to happen there? but with this, i have to say the white house is surprised by

this, not that that's unusual and they're surprised, but it is in the sense that i think they thought it would be a much easier go. >> i'm with them actually. i thought all the red state democrats would be like, i need an easy trump vote. i don't agree with them, but i believe the president should have who he wants. i thought it would be the easiest pro-trump vote to explain. >> what did this mean for gina haskell? >> that was the one, if you want to look at the left -- >> i don't think she gets through. >> if you want to look at the democratic base, i mean, that's where they're really going to -- pompeo at least had going for him he already had some people who had voted for him. >> she does have significant support from the bipartisan former hierarchy. [ all speak at once ] >> democrats skilled haspel the last time. >> by all measures, she should be a slam dunk given her background as a career person at the cia who understands how the place works. >> who's been enforced by both

pompeo and brennan. >> exactly. >> anyway. great conversation. got a little weedy there in the process. i like it. up ahead, important news about condiments. captivating exteriors dynamic lighting elevated comfort powerfully efficient and one more thing

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in case you missed it, we talk about america as the great melting pot. one nation made better by combining what makes each individual special. and do you know who knows that better than anyone?

well, the hj heinz company chk. heinz is taking mayonnaise and ketchup and turning it into mayo chup. the aspirationalism of mayonnaise, the individualism of ketchup, mayo chup, just rolls off the tongue, doesn't it? i guess. kecha naz. i've heard of that combination before. of course, russian dressing, how did we not see it coming. it's been right in front of us all along. maybe collusion isn't so bad, at least when it comes to condiments. who doesn't like a nice ruben? so when you call it russian dressing or mayo chup. we like kecha naz, i think. whatever you like, just keep putin it on.

all the growans out of the way? we'll be back tomorrow. i'm going to my friends at jiffy to come up with that peanut butter/mayonnaise combination that, yes, my dad used to make me eat. good evening, ari. >> good evening, chuck. thank you very much. our top story tonight is a potentially serious turning point in the legal cloud that is hanging over the trump presidency. the trump justice department tonight is considering charging a key witness in the russia probe with a crime. potential target is the former deputy to james comey, andrew mccabe. he's a central figure, of course, because he's one of the few people who can corroborate james comey's accounts of alleged misconduct by donald trump. you probably heard his name because he was the first deputy fbi director to be fired in american history. in that unusual secretive friday night process overseen by jeff sessions, involving a topic investigating hillary clinton, which jeff sessions had claimed he was recused from. and that firing came after months