3:00 p.m. eastern. "deadline white house" with nicole wallace begins right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. donald trump's day of french diplomacy was sidetracked by what many took as the president taking the first step toward cutting his nominee for the department of veterans affairs loose. according to the president ronnie jackson may not need the headache of getting confirmed amid such questions like the ones laid out in the "new york time times", specifically that jackson oversaw a hostile work environment, allowed the overprescribing of drugs and possibly drank on the job. he was on the hill today at the same moment the president expressed ambivalence about whether jackson should stick it out? >> can you say anything at all about these allegations? >> i was looking forward to the hearing tomorrow.

kind of disappointmeed it's bee postponed. >> you've seen the allegations, hostile work environment, drinking on the job, overprescribing medications. are you saying that's not true? >> i'm saying i'm looking forward to the hearing. >> moments after that exchange the president seemed to give jackson an out. >> i said to dr. jackson, what do you need it for? we'll see what happens. i don't want to put a man through who's not a political person -- i don't want to put a man through a process like this. it's too ugly and too disgusting. so we'll see what happens. he'll make a decision. >> are you saying that you will stand behind him? >> i would definitely stand behind him. he's a fine man. if i were him, in many ways i'd love to be him, but the fact is i wouldn't do it. i wouldn't do it.

what does he need it for? to be abused by a bunch of politicians that aren't thinking nicely about our country? i really don't think he should do it, but it's totally his decision. >> said one of the most abusive politicians on the world stage. here to help us break down the rather unexpected headline of the day some of our favorite reporters and friends. phil rucker and robert costa. with us at the table jonathan a lamere. and rick stengle. every last one of them msnbc analysts and contributors. phil, let me start with you and some reporting in your paper that contradicts the line that the president took today. as you know from covering the president, that doesn't mean that both aren't true. but your colleague writes, the

administration has not put its full weight behind jackson's nomination according to people familiar with the matter, appointing mid level aides to oversee the briefing and sending a junior media aide from the white house. with the recent departure of the white house's most seasoned expert on veteran's issues, trump has few aides with deep knowledge how the agency works. he was walking into an ambush, a veteran's advocate close to the white house said of the senate hearing. he is skrus njust not ready. >> i think that's exactly right. the white house that's put a lot of muscle behind mike pompeo's nomination for secretary of state. he cleared the committee vote yesterday and is expected to be confirmed soon. but we've not seen a similar effort for dr. ronnie jackson with his nomination to the va. in parking lt, this is sort of problem of the white house's own

making. there was not an effort to vet him before president trump made that nomination. trump knows jackson very well. he's been his personal physician at the white house for a while now. they have a close bond and relationship. he thought he'd be good fit at the va without looking into his background that white houses traditionally do when they're putting forth cabinet nominees. >> this is indeed a story about vetting. i want to start with how ronnie jackson likely earned a spot deep inside the president's heart. let's watch ronnie jackson at that donald trump health briefing back in january. >> with president trump's consent, i released the following health information. vitals as follows. age 71 years, height 75 inches, weight 239 pounds. some people have just great genes. i told the president that if he had a healthier diet, he might live to be 200 years old.

i don't know. if he had some type of mental or cognitive issue, this test would pick up on it. he would not have got 30 out of 30 on the test. >> his weight at 239 is just shy of obesity. >> it is. >> you're confident of that number? >> yes. >> i've lied about my weight so i'm not going to pass any judgment here. this was sort of the moment when he rose to prominence and sort of a public outside of the white house staff and the president first knew who he was. talk about his journey from the kind of performance that the president loves in that briefing room to the nominee to run argue by one of the more important federal agencies, certainly one that affects the lives of the people who have given the most to this country. >> based on my conversations with white house officials, there is a visceral personal connection between dr. jackson and president trump. dr. jackson has had a warm relationship with many

presidents over the years. but when you see his adopting the language of the president, a phrase the president often uses is great genes. the president at times has grown more isolated inside of the west wing, turning to friends and confidants from his business career, also people around him who he truly trusts like dr. jackson, not necessarily lawmakers or outside advisors. dr. jackson was present. he was a constant at the side of president trump. so when it came time to move on from shulkin, he was there. he seemed like an obvious choice. >> having worked in the white house, the white house doctor isn't by your side in case you need something or to suck up. the white house doctor is by your side in case you fall ill, in case something happens to you, in case you're in a car accident. sort of the simplicity -- and i accept and agree with how he ended up being the nominee for va. but it's just a ludicrous chain

of events that he was in the president's line of sight and he said, he can do it. >> that's right. right now we're seeing the talk about these allegations of misconduct by dr. jackson. >> do you have any additional reporting on that? >> there's just chatter. it's not verified. we know there's some lawmakers on capitol hill who was alarmed by what was said. it points to the fact there wasn't a real vetting at the white house. the talk now also the seems to be overshadowing the fact that dr. jackson was wildly unqualified for this job. >> let's hit pause. before this story broke, this was the problem with this nomination. jim mecina was here who worked for president obama as his deputy chief of staff and said he's a wonderful doctor, he's the worst choice to run the va. >> i believe the va is the second largest federal agency. as you said, these are people who need the services who have given the most for this country.

they deserve the best. this is also a president who on the campaign trail made veterans affairs issues a pretty signature issue, every day vowed we'll clean this up. obviously ousted mr. shulkin and then made this very sprieurpris choice. people in the obama white house vouched for him personally, but he has no experience of management of an organization anywhere near this size. >> it shows donald trump's disdain for bureaucracy and institutions. he ran a little candy store business. he doesn't understand. the va has 377,000 employees. that's probably 150 times the number of employees he's ever had. he has no respect for people who have bureaucratic ability. this is a skill set and this is the toughest bureau to manage. >> this is a bureaucracy where

lives hang in the balance. the waiting list for services for tbi and ptsd,literally lives depend on this. >> i think the vetting on a number of individuals who actually were confirmed was deficient. >> probably makes sense for the president to spend a little bit more time doing research on his own nominees before he sends them to congress. >> it's disappointing to see that we're being sent folks that are often for many jobs are profoundly unqualifieunqualifie >> the vetting here unfortunately typically of the white house in other instances as well has been really abysmal, neglectful, careless and i think a disservice to admiral jackson. >> it started with mike flynn, who was in trouble before he ever walked through the northwest gate.

rachel maddow has a wall from all the departures from this administration. why can't anyone get their arms around the vetting process? >> i think for some reason people have given him a pass on this in the initial stages. it wasn't just michael flynn. it was jared kushner, wilbur ross, betsy devos. we just go down the line. what we see is that the standard is comfort, not competence. how comforting are you to donald trump as opposed to whether or not you actually have the skill set to do the job that is required in the position. because we're constantly trying to, shall we say, provide a context for this man child to function, we're constantly giving people byes, we're constantly giving people passes. >> we're not. he is. >> we can blame the white house, but many of these folks were

actually pushed through. >> he's gone through the vetting process and the senate confirmation process, but when you're going into the state department, the senate foreign relations committee, you have to answer this question, every foreign country you've been to for the last 14 years, every foreigner you talked to on that trip and how many drinks you had each day. believe it or not, that's still on the form. how these guys are getting through the vetting process, i don't know. someone in the white house is saying speed it up. >> can you speak to that? the rob porter scandal -- either they're lying on forms, which i believe is a crime to li lie on federal background check. what is the actual technical way these candidates who are unqualified are getting through? >> well, the vetting is just not as thorough as it was in past white houses.

there is one aspect of the vetting that's quite thorough in the trump white house. it's a review of sort of what the nominees or potential nominees have said in the past about trump. there's a pretty thorough check of their twitter, their facebook, did they support another candidate in the republican primaries. >> seriously? >> yeah, that matters a hlot to this president. there are people considered for jobs who don't get through because of that. it's important for us to remember that the senate plays a key role in the vetting. trump today talked about how this process is dirty and unfair and the politicians in the senate are tearing apart his nominee jackson. but it's not quite that. they're doing their constitutional duty to provide oversight of the executive branch. it's their job to vet candidates and render their own judgment about them. >> i accept the analysis that most scandals in washington don't damage donald trump's brand. but bringing in the best people and running the federal government like a successful

business is essential to his brand as anything. it is now abundantly clear through dozens and dozens and dozens of examples of unethical and unqualified people that that is not true. is there anyone in the president's orbit who believes that the incompetence narrative, the lack of ability to attract top tier talent to the white house and administration is something they have to keep an eye on. is that at least registering as a flashing yellow light for anyone around this president? >> it's an interesting question. politically, no, nicole. they don't think inside of this white house that voters are going to make a decision in the midterm elections based on cabinet nominees and the cabinet nomination process. however, there is a legislative cost. you have republicans on capitol hill saying so this white house right now, stop with this upheaval of the cabinet. pompeo for secretary of state is enough of a challenge. haspel for cia.

now ronnie jackson has problems with his nomination. they're telling the white house, calm down with these nominees. there's already enough on the plate legislatively. got burrow down for the midterm elections. >> the president likes people who look the part. dr. ronnie jackson does. he cut a pretty imposing figure there at the podium. he delivered a memorable press conference. >> honestly, anyone that says that i weigh eed less than i do would get any job he wanted. >> if the allegations are true, suggests that explain he was drinking on the job, that might explain that press conference. >> i traveled all over the world with the president's physician, dr. tub. he was revered. i totally accept the white house reporting that he picks people he's comfortable with. the white house physician is

about the person with whom you are the most comfortable. if you land on a foreign trip and don't feel good or are having trouble adjusting to a new time zone, doctors are there to help you. i understand the affection. i just can't understand the leap to putting them in charge of such an important agency. i want to read you something about the lack of due diligence also from the "washington post." a lack of due diligence is a feature not a bug of trumpism, trump promised to hire the best and most serious people as a candidate be there's been historically high turnover and many of his appointees now operate under clouds of scandal. that list takes up three walls in this studio. pruitt, it goes on and on. >> scott pruitt was an expert level grifter. dr. jackson came out of the block lying. there's no way -- if donald trump weighs 239 pounds, i have

an affordable flat in brooklyn to sell you. on top of that, there's a question about his skill set. he can't manage a bureaucracy of this scale. he doesn't have that experience. on top of that, there's the question of vetting. the question of vetting takes me to general kelly. what is his role in this? what is he doing? how does ronnie jackson get to this point? and what is the role of kelly? >> the chief of staff doesn't have a role in the vetting process. >> that's not true. they see the vet. >> he could say accelerate it, don't mind this and that. let me also point out the stuff that came out today about bad workplace environment, possible drinking, et cetera, that would not harm a bulletproof nominee who would get there in front of the committee -- >> or would prescribing a medicine get a doctor from forbidden from practicing medicine in the state of new

york>> that . >> that is not a proven charge. the leaks come out because the nominee is wobbly. >> the nominee is wobbly because the white house doesn't vet them. >> trump cut him loose today. the last thing you ever want to be called by donald trump is "one of the finest people i ever met." that means you're out. >> are you hearing any mood music from the white house about how long ronnie jackson's got -- the white house put a statement out saying admiral jackson served as a physician to three presidents, he's been praised by them all. his record of leadership is exactly what's needed at the va to ensure our veterans receive the benefits they deserve. how long does that statement remain operative? >> probably not very long. given what the president said a couple of hours ago at his news conference, i can't imagine

jackson can stay as the nominee for much longer. the president was really giving him -- opening the exit door and holding it open for him. it's important to remember we're not seeing the full court press from the white house that we saw from pompeo just yesterday and over the weekend. there's been very little in terms of a public argument, campaign, to get jackson through. >> what are you hearing, robert costa? >> if you look at the record of president trump, sometimes when allies or nominees or cabinet members are under siege like scott pruitt at the epa, the white house almost embraces them even as they privately acknowledge they have problems with some of the contact or decisions that were made. the president gave an opening to dr. jackson today. he showed him the exit if he wanted to step through it. but at the same time continues to under score his support. classic trump.

>> that supportive statement from the white house came out hours before the president got out there on the podium in the east room with the president of france and suggested that his nominee, you know, probably didn't need this job. i think it's a pretty clear signal there's not much support in the white house. >> said he could get a great job at any hospital. when we come back, donald trump and emanuel macron's pda filled day of diplomacy. stormy daniels' attorney michael avenatti joins us for the latest in his legal battle against the president and that fixer as well as that tease about what sort of headaches y may lay ahead for sean hannity. and bob mueller's interest in the trump tower meeti meeting. are you taking the tissue test?

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when everything's connected, it's simple. easy. awesome. for a president whose only consistent behavior is his tendency to violate norms, it should come as no surprise that trump's first state visit from the french president and first lady has become a mine field of bizarre interactions and breaches of decorudecorum. we may finally need a presidential etiquette guide. we have some rules we could suggest like do not brush dandruff off the french president. >> we do have a very special relationship. in fact, i'll get that little piece of dandruff. we have to make him perfect.

he is perfect. >> that really happened. or do not shower praise on north korean dictator kim jong-un. >> kim jong-un was -- he really has been very open and, i think, very honorable from everything we're seeing. >> and the evergreen, do not attack the press in the company of world leaders. >> what about michael cohen? are you considering a pardon for him? >> stupid question. >> that's my favorite. if there's any love lost between president trump and president macron, you can't tell from their body language. ♪

>> thank you. >> thank you. ♪ >> i like him a lot. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> phil, robert, jonathan, eddie and rick are still here. phil, take the floor. >> well, it was interesting to watch all of that today. there's clearly a relationship that's developed between trump and macron. >> what kind of relationship? >> i don't know, but we do not see that with merkel. >> we don't see that with melania. i've not seen him touch melania that many times. >> it all dates back to about a year ago when trump did his first foreign visit. i was in the room in brussels

when he first met macron. macron got the better of him in that handshake. it was a white knuckled handshake. there's a chemistry there. trump seemed to revel in showing off the white house and mount vernon and washington to the french president. >> if eddie and i tried to do those handshakes, we'd be in the hospital. i think the dandruff moment in particular is cringe inducing. >> there's no way he had any dandruff. >> i think it's unlikely. for trump it's the idea of like he is a perfectionist in terms of appearances. number two, he has no decorum or sense of what he should or shouldn't say. three, it's a bit of a power play. i'm in charge, i'm cleaning you up, i have a hand on you right now. >> i completely dispute that

there's any chemistry between these guys. it is macron realizing that the way to get to trump's heart is to -- this is a dangerous thing for him too. >> tracking the bromance, we're not paying attention to where macron has failed with regards to trump. >> let's turn to that. so smart political strategist working for the french president booked him on fox news sunday speaking about the iran deal. but president trump seemed to sort of turn up the anti-iran deal language today. let's watch that and talk about it on the other side. >> people know my views on the iran deal. it was a terrible deal. should have never, ever been made. we gave 1.8 billion in cash.

that's actually cash, barrels of cash. they're testing missiles. what is that all about? what kind of a deal is it where you're allowed to test me feels all over the place? if they restart their nuclear program, they will have bigger problems than they've ever had before. >> it's insane, it's ridiculous. >> that's the kind of conversation that with a normal president takes place when the cameras are not in the room and you don't em brabarrass your aln front of the press pool. is there anyone around the president to say to him, your views on the iran deal are well known, but you've just invited one of our allies on the world stage here. let's tone down the rhetoric. in france, this is being viewed as a failure on the part of macron. >> in conversations can foreign diplomats here in washington, they say it's often a strategy for the french and others to

ingin -- you see macron knowing that trump doesn't have this tight relationship with the u.k. as some past presidents have had, the anglo american relationship. he sees an opening for france to step through and for france to help really negotiate the finer details in the coming months on iran and syria. of course the president is making these comments publicly, alarming some in the u.s. and abroad. macron believes if he's at his side, he can play a bigger role. >> do you detect any difference not in the president's language, because i don't think there is any difference in the president's language. but powell and mcmaster were the kind of advisors who would have

had their antennae up for not embarrassing macron while he was here. >> he seems a little more unleashed. the thing in a macro way that i find upsetting too is his lack of a realization that countries have interests. a leader of the country has a personality, but your relationship to that country doesn't have anything to do with the leader's personality. it's not about what your handshake is like or whether you have dandruff on your collar. >> it's such an important point. having worked for a president who was largely unpopular in his second term because of the iraq war, that was the essence of every private bilat. leaders would agree where they could agree. for trump, there is no state.

there is just trump. what is the impact of that on our foreign policy? >> well, it's problematic, but what we see is the reaction of macron which is the way you deal with this guy is by buttering him up and flattering him. >> to what end? he pulled out of the paris accord. >> i agree. that's why this is a failure. >> steve is absolutely right. it's just trump. his narcissism overdetermines everything. people think they can play him and move him and manipulate him to achieve their own ends. macron thinks he can move him by charming him. what happened? paris accord, we pulled out. what's going to happen with iran? we see the rhetoric ratcheted up. part of what we have to understand is that trump's narcissism overdetermines everything. this is not going to play well for macron. in france right now because the

public sector is slehrinking, because he's attacki ining trad unions, 15,000 plus folk came out in the street. he has a rating of 58% of the folk are unhappy with his presidency even though he's perhaps the most powerful president since degall. >> we see time and time again the president decide that foreign relations were his own personal relations with chairman xi, with vladimir putin of course. that's one of the concerns people have about whatever settlement we might have with north korea. he's going to get in there and try and find some rapport with kim jong-un, which is a far cry from little rocket man just a few months ago. suddenly he's changed his tone because he sees a chance to make a deal or make history in a sense. there are many people around the president who are nervous as to what sort of deal he might

strike. >> we're not making cruddy ties in china anymore, mr. president. when we come back, a faceoff, street fighter to street fighter. that's the challenge our next guest made to sean hannity. the sun is shining so why binge in here, when you can do it out there. with this clever little app called audible. you can listen to the stories you love while doing the things you love, outside. everyone's doing it she's binging... they're binging... and... so is he. so put on your headphones, turn on audible and binge better.

mr. president, what about michael cohen, are you considering a pardon for him? >> thank you very much. >> stupid question. >> imagine being emanuel macron. is it a stupid question? sarah sanders didn't shoot down the possibility at yesterday's briefings. we know pardons aren't a foreign concept to this president. given cohen's clear legal jeopardy, a president and legal team that have shown an interest in pardoning figurers in the mueller probe, it would be pretty pollyannaish not to start

asking whether one should be invoked in this case. and you can rest assured that it has crossed their minds. i'll say he's never denied that he offered michael cohen a pardon. do you think a pardon has been dangled in front of cohen? >> i think if it hasn't, the president has alluded to it. it's no secret that cohen is counting on that to a certain degree. i think that's a mistake. as i stated previously, a presidential pardon would not help michael cohen in the event that the attorney general in california or new york brought state charges. i have to believe that protections are going to put in place to allow for that potentially prosecutors are going to come to a conclusion that a pardon may be likely. i find the statement that it's a stupid question interesting. does that mean it's a stupid question because of course he's

going to pardon michael cohen? >> they do have certain tells. when you get close to the truth, he calls it fake news. it's a pretty simple question. have you offered a pardon to michael cohen? just as an analyst, separate from anything you have in the legal system, would you view that as potential obstruction of justice if michael cohen, as a subject and target of any part of this investigation, were offered a pardon? >> absolutely. i think if mr. trump has reason to believe that michael cohen has damaging information about him -- and i think there's no question that that's true -- if he believes that and he is dangling anything in front of michael cohen in an evideffort shut him up, i think that's

obstruction. you cannot entice a potential witness in a criminal investigation, certainly not a target. we know he's a target by way of the fbi raids. >> and the search warrant. >> there's no question about that. and in fact, michael cohen's attorney in our case admitted as much in the federal courthouse in los angeles on friday. there's no question about that. so for mr. trump to entice mr. cohen to do anything in connection with that, positive or negative, could potentially be obstruction. >> do you think that a pardon -- some sort of preemptive pardon for what we know they got close to the authorize that raid of his homes and offices, do you have any insight just on your role in this case into how that intersects with what mueller's looking at? >> i don't have any district insight. but i will say i don't think it's going to be a preemptive if it happens. we'll speculate it's going to happen for the purposes of our discussion. >> he's tweeting over the

weekend about pardoning a boxer because sylvester stallone called him and suggested it. >> i don't think if it happens it's going to be preemptive. if it is preemptive that would be pretty smart because he would be not pardoning him for specific crimes under federal law. they would want to see what charging decisions were made by federal prosecutors so cohen could then argue down the road that any subsequent charges brought by the new york or california a.g. would somehow constitute double jeopardy and allow cohen to escape those charges. they would want to know exactly the scope of the charges. i think prosecutors are going to be smart about this and leave open a window for the state a.g.'s to bring state charges. >> and the president has no pardon power there. >> none.

zero. >> i don't know how closely you follow the president on twitter. he lost his mind at "new york times" reporter maggie haberman. trump tweeted cohen like trump. maggie haberman reported that and had dozens of sources and he went after her personally. why do you think that's such a trigger for the president, this revelation that he treated michael cohen poorly? >> he's trying to put the horse back in the barn. the president realizes he's got huge potential liability, that michael cohen is the key and he's doing everything in his power to shore up that relationship to try to send a message to michael cohen that he has his back and these reports of disloyalty, et cetera, are wildly overblown.

he's trying to shore up that relationship. he's very, very nervous about what michael cohen might do. i've got to believe that all the tweets in the world are not going to save the president if michael cohen decides to flip on the president and i believe that he will. >> you think there's going to be enough pressure on him criminally and legally to have to choose between going away for a long time or staying loyal to this president? >> there's no question about it. i've been saying it since april 45th pri 5th prior to the fbi raid. i've made a lot of predictions. so far i'm perfect. there is no question in my mind that michael cohen is going to be charged with serious crimes and there's no question he's going to flip on the president. >> that's how a prosecutor works their way up the ladder to prosecute a case? >> correct. >> let me bring you back to two conversations we started several

appearances ago. i jokingly said you're so confident you're going to interview the president. why is that? bob mueller can't even get an interview. >> you said i was no bob mueller. >> do you remain confident you'll be in a position to depose the president in this case? >> i am because of what transpired friday in los angeles. we had a hearing relating to the stay of our case. i don't think that evideffort b. trump is going to be successful. i think the court is going to carve out some protections for mr. cohen because of his fifth amendment rights. if the court determines we have to take mr. cohen's deposition last, that's only going to move up the deposition of mr. trump. i think that case is going to proceed. i think i'm going to get a deposition of mr. trump even though while technically i'm no bob mueller, i think i can hold my own. >> you know i didn't mean it like that.

>> i forgive you. >> i also want to ask you two questions about fox news. one, what did you release about sean hannity and what's it significance to the broader case against michael cohen, against the president and what not? and then the second, why hasn't sean hannity taken you up on the offer to appear and hash these things out? >> i don't know why. i mean, i hope that he's going to invite me on his show. we met for the first time socially at an event about 7-10 days ago. we had a kind enough exchange. i have respect for his degree of intelligence. >> he's an affable guy. i disagree with him on everything, but you could have a lively and spirited -- >> absolutely. viewers don't view it that way because they feel so strongly about the issues and they disagree with him so much. i understand that. but he is incredibly affable. there's no reason why we couldn't have a spirited -- >> my phone's right here.

text us if you're in? >> sean, text us. >> let me ask you what you released about him and what you think the significance is of michael cohen also representing sean hannity. what do you think is to still be unearthed about sean hannity's role in michael cohen's web? >> i don't know that there's anything nefarious between michael cohen and sean hannity and the representation by michael cohen of sean hannity. the reason i released what i did was because mr. hannity's colleague brit hume and laura ingraham took to twitter and decided to attack me late sunday and early monday as it relates to some harmly statement -- har statements i made on cnn. i decided to back it up,

providing the transcript of the hearing, coupled with sean hannity's twitter statements. >> you've also come under a little bit of fire. i just want to give you a chance to respond, for your media strategy. can you talk about how your media strategy supports the legal strategy and how they go hand in hand and when you're fighting with someone like donald trump, what he sees on television is more important and upsetting to him that anything that happens to him in his legal life. >> i think the criticism has been relatively minor compared to the support we've received. this is not your average case. this is not average in any sense of the term, whether it be the clients or the parties involved or the location or the interest or the public interest. this is a different case. each case requires perhaps a different skill set. there's no question we've used the media to our advantage and we've been out front for many, many weeks. mr. cohen's counsel tried to make this an issue before the federal judge on friday in los

angeles. he swatted it away. he could carele less about it. we're going to continue to do what we've been doing because, quite honestly, it's working and i think the case is progressing nicely and people have an interest in the case. >> the media strategy supports the legal strategy, not the other way around? >> they probably support each other. the media strategy is what led the president last week to send out a tweet effectively calling my client a liar, thus opening himself up to a defamation claim. >> you keep us posted. michael avenatti, thank you for spending time with us. after the break, new evidence that special counsel bob mueller is keenly interested in this understanding how that trump tower meeting between russians and members of trump's campaign and family members went down.

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remember that dramatic no

knock fbi raid this august on paul manafort's home, the one the white house insisted had nothing to do with trump or his campaign? well, new court filings from mueller's office confirmed investigators were searching for documents related to the now infamous trump tower meeting among other things. the filings also reveal that manafort was interviewed twice by the fbi while he was working as a political consultant in ukraine years before he joined the campaign. joining us now is joyce vance, and jonathan is back with us. joyce, let's start with you. take me inside the significance of this. we get very few windows into what bob mueller is doing. i understand this is to defend the bob mueller probe. talk about the significance into the window of the trump tower meeting in terms of the collusion and the obstruction investigation. >> the way we get this window in

is that paul manafort has filed a motion to suppress one of the government searches. it's one of a storage areas he owns claiming it violated the fourth amendment. and mueller's team came back full force defending the legitimacy of the search, and in the course of doing that, they revealed some pieces of information including the fact that one of the things that they were searching for was anything that manafort had related to any of the participants and to that notorious june meeting in trump tower, and what that does, i think it gives us very clear confirmation that mueller is focussed on the russian collusion aspect of this investigation. we all assume that. it seems to be a strong indication, but here we have an actual indication that they're looking for evidence about that meeting, and perhaps more importantly about all of the participants in that meeting, and their relationship with paul manafort. so that leaves us with that

clear picture on collusion. we also know that one of the strongest basis for supporting a potential obstruction charge in this case would be if it was obstruction to defy, to prevent investigation into collusion that actual occurred. so it gives us increasing vitality there. i think the most important, most interesting thing in this whole document is the page that's redaktded where the special counsel says we're looking into three separate types of acts involved here. three sort of separate boxes of conduct. and then they redact all of the specifics. you just see first, second, third, without knowing what those three buckets of conduct are. >> so let me put up for you, you mentioned the people that were involved. let me put up for the viewers some of the people that were involved are don junior, the president's son. jared kushner, paul manafort who has been charged with facing dozens of charges at this point, and five other people connected

to russian lobbyists. many with ties to the kremlin. bob mueller has shown no reluctance to charge people close to the president, for has she shown any reluctance to charge people close to the kremlin. do you think it would be a mistake if any of the people on this list were sleeping any easier these days? it's clear, it seems from your analysis that this is an active part of the mueller probe. >> all of these people have to be under the lens. i think it's very difficult and in some ways dangerous to predict who mueller might choose to indict. but certainly all of these folks are facing a heightened level of scrutiny. both for this meeting itself in which collusion could easily have occurred, but also to see what steps they took after to cover the true purpose of that meeting. >> phil, i want to ask you about someone we don't hear from often, charles kushner. jared kushner's father as reported by cnn said i pushed

jarod to do the deal for 666 fifth avenue, trying to take some of the heat off his son. seems like a normal fatherly thing to do, but is that in its own way some sort of tell that there's some concern that there's too much heat on his son? >> perhaps, nicole. i don't know what charles kushner's motivation was there. the deal surrounding that building on fifth avenue in new york has been under scrutiny in the media and by investigators and has been a potential liability for jared kushner who remains senior adviser in the white house. so clearly the father, charles kushner is taking some responsibility for that deal. even though it was executed at a time when jared kushner was running the kushner company's real estate empire. >> obviously jared kushner's interactions with foreign leaders under heavy scrutiny by the mueller probe. we don't know if it is by other jurisdictions as well. the word i hear is that the kids have gone underground. what do you hear about what

jared and ivanka are up to? >> jared has kept a lower profile in recent months, particularly since the security clearance was downgraded. after a memo that would not allow him to have the highest clearance any longer. there is, look, there remains concern in the white house and outside among trump allies from all our reporting about what kushner's exposure could be and that he's someone who a lot of his -- a lot of the meetings during the transition in the early months of the white house whether foreign officials were trying to leverage him with business dealings, that's something that bob mueller would pay attention to. >> all right. we have to sneak in our last break. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. n, n, frequent, uncontrollable episodes of laughing or crying that are exaggerated or simply don't match how you feel, it can often lead to feeling misunderstood this is called pseudobulbar affect, or pba. a condition that can occur from brain injury...

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price... ...on the hotel you want. don't sweat your booking. tripadvisor. the latest reviews. the lowest prices. a quick update on george h.w. bush. sources close to the family tell me he woke up this morning in an improved condition. while still hospitalized, he's doing better today than on

sunday and monday. we're thinking about him and the whole bush family. they conducted themselves with a sort of grace and dignity that makes the whole country proud. my thanks to phil, joyce, and jonathan for spending the hour with me. that does it for our hour. mtp daily starts right now with katy tur in for chuck. >> hi. if it is tuesday, is the doctor in or out? >> tonight taking the post of rob by jackson's confirmation. >> i'm looking forward to the hearings. >> will the personnel files of the president's personal doctor cost him his nod for va chief? >> i don't want to put a man through a process like this. it's too ugly and disgusting. >> plus there's no such thing as a stupid question. unless, apparently, it's about michael cohen. >> stupid question. >> and special election day in arizona. can the democrats rise up from the political ashes of an