again. that we're starting to articulate policy that can really win overall americans. >> thank you both for joining us. >> thank you. >> that is all for this evening. the rachel mad dough show begins. >> thank you at home for joining us this hour. happy tuesday. it was september 3rd, 2015, right before the labor day weekend that year. politically speaking. at that moment, donald trump was a real problem for the republican party or at least he was a real worry for them. like lots of other republican household names, donald trump was running for the republican nomination for president at that point and by that point, september 2015, nobody in the republican politics actually thought he could win their party's presidential nomination. but by that time already, it was lear he had enough support that if he wanted to, he could potentially screw things up for

the republican par. party. if party was paired if he didn't get the nomination for president, they were worried he might still keep running anyway. he might become a spoiler the conventional wisdom if republican politics at that time, september 2015 if trump couldn't win the nomination or presidency, his stint as a candidate for president thus far was going well enough that it was really good for his celebrity status. it was probably good for his business. so he would keep going with his candidacy regardless. so republicans are worried about this worst case scenario, where trump would not win the republican primary but he'd stay in the race and he'd run as a third party or independent candidate. from that position he could definitely never win the presidency but seifen off republican votes to screw up the general election chances for whoever did become the republican nominee. that was the worry. that was what was going on in

that moment in republican electoral conventional wisdom. now, looking back on it from this distance, it's a good big picture reminder how good common wisdom can be at every one moment. every aspect of that was wrong but at the time september 2015, heading into that long holiday weekend, that's where the republican party was at. over the course of a few weeks as this problem, this war was solidified. republicans thought the way they would solve this is with a loyalty pledge him do you republican candidates for president have any objection to signing a pledge that you will support and campaign for whoever gets the republican nomination this year, even if it is not you? any of you have any objections to that? yes, for a long time as all the other candidates were saying, no, no, no, they had no

objections, there was one guy saying yesterday. he would go along he said he wouldn't go along in making this promise. trump held out when all the rest of them said they'd sign a pledge. that was a cause of great consternation, gnashing. prump trump was holding out. >> that left over the possibility he would run as a spoil irthird party candidate. >> that would be terrible for the republican party. then september 3rd, 2015, it all gets resolved the trump company summons everybody to trump do youer in new york to the atrium lobby of trump tower. they say it will be a big exciting announcement, donald trump would, in fact, sign that pledge. >> the best way for the republicans to win is if i when the nomination and go directly against whoever they happen to put up and for that reason i have signed the pledge.

>> i have signed the pledge. so this was this big celebratory moment for candidate trump and for the republican party. for the party, it's a load off their mind, they wouldn't spoil it when he inevitably loses the primary. he could relish being in driver's seat, having the crowd turn out, liking the moment. it turns into this big trump tower event. but it was weird. at the end of that event amid all the excitement of this big hyped moment, trump decided to do something sort of inexplicable something that struck everybody as a little weird. >> thank you, everybody. thank you thank you. hey, ladies and gentlemen, this is a very, an amazing man he is

as you know speaker of the how was of indonesia, he's their see me. one of the most powerful men and a great man and his whole group is here to see me today and we will do great things for the occupation, is that correct? >> yes. >> do they like me in independent nieceia? >> yes, thank you very much in there speaker of the house in indonesia. thank you very much. >> do they like me in indonesia? yes, i leak you. as you know, everybody, this, of course, is -- what's your name? it's sort of a ward moment, everybody starts to break down the reporters will report to camera about what's going on, then he starts the whole event again, this weird tacked on koda to signing the lyslety event. it was a strange moment in the moment. it did solve the mist riff of

who that guy was who looked a bit confused to be in the loyalty pledge announcement. he was standing right behind trump while trump was doing his thing, holding up the pledge. it probably made no sense for somebody following every twist and turn in the republican primary this year. it turns out that guy looking confused when he made that announcement was the ind necessaryian speaker of the house. stood in the cameo of the man. we have talked about that weird moment a couple times on the show before. because it was so strange. from what we can figure out, we think the reason the indonesian speaker of the house in trump tower was because of a business meeting. we think he was there to talk to him about donald trump business interests in independent nieceia. well, today that same man from that weird cameo in the republican presidential primary former indonesian speaker of the house, today he was sentenced to 15 years in prison in the

biggest corruption bust in modern indonesian history. quote, setya novanto was convicted of masterminding the theft of an identity theft program. they called this a high profile conviction and this expected 15-year prison term represents the downfall of one of independent nieceia's most powerful men and the climax of a long public corruptions. setya has been quote imlicked in a number of corruption scandals over the years, he had seemed untouchable, past tense now he's been touched. going to the poke keeper, 15 years. so that ground breaking prison sentence today is fortunate for independent nieceia. also turns out to be a nice koda to the coda of that moment.

final ep log for what was that all about? i mean, in that moment, if we all had better foresight at the time, we might have recognized that moment was such a nirvana would be a tone-setting moment for the trump administration, for a recurring problem in the trump presidency i mean if you think about what trump was doing there, what was trump doing in that moment in the trump tower lobby? he was doing something weird. an event was stopped and over. he restarted it to do this thing, to brag about the powerful nature of this man who had come to see him on a business matter. but he also sort of randomly and without meaning to, he went out of his way to give his own donald trump public endorsement to this man in front of the assembles national press core. i mean it seems clear from the way he handseled that moment, he didn't know the guy's name. you see him reading it off a note card, reading it off the note card, he still gets the guy's name wrong.

i mean, in such a circumstance, why would you ka ul that person a great man as he did? said this is a great man. why would you give that kind of endorsement when you don't know the guy's well enough to read it correctly off a piece of paper. why make that public endorsement when you have no idea about the bake background of this famously corrupt person who is standing besides you. but that was trump as a candidate. and now we've got trump as president. which brought us national security adviser mike flynn who was the subject of an fbi investigation led by a veteran counter espionage prosecutor before he started lying to the fbi, his second job at the white house. >> that did not work out with mike flynn. he was not the only one whom things did not work out. for a while we had a nominee until his marriage had been the subject of an oprah winfrey tv show back in the day about white collar wife beaters. so that one didn't work out.

we got a head of the centers for the disease control who turned out to be buying and trading tobacco stocks while running the centres for disease control. >> that one didn't end up working out either. remember for a hot minute, we had an army secretary who quite recently punched a guy out at a high end horse auction. it was a very unusual reason for that one not working out. but there has been a lot of them. >> that just didn't work out. nobody asked about the background stuff. i mean, those ones, those are off the top of my head. but this has been a dominant pattern in the effort by president trump to staff up the federal government and his administration. a lot of folks have really not worked out, in the end. because trump gave his endorsement, made the picks. said, yeah, go for it. i want you. you are the nominee without him apparently knowing the basic backgrounds of people he was choosing. it's happened again and again and again, in today's news, it

means yet more about scott peru e, the scandals are a never ending gross fountain of muck the most dramatic headlines are about ronny jackson a washington post was supposed to report last night when white house physician rony jackson whereas named to leave the veteran's administration the white house did no vetting of ronney jackson per tunt do that decision. the washington post reporter told us on the air last night jackson never even interviewed for the job. but they nominated him any aye the "new york times" today confirms that, saying quote the white house did little or no vetting of jackson's background before his announcement on 26th. trump chose him largely out of personal affinity him personal affinity is not nothing. personal affinity makes the world go around. when it comes to being a presidential appointee the president personally liking you is undoubtedly an asset. but it is not everything when

ronney jackson was interviewed, there were top line concerns about him not having the relevant experience to take on a job quite like that the very night his nomination was announced i remember one long time public lobbyist telling axios.com his nomination could be summed up in two words, harriet meyers, harriet meyers was by all accounts a lovely person. she was george w. bush's supreme court nominee for one hot minute in 2005 because he liked her a lot. >> that nomination ka lapsed critically when people realize it was not enough to name that person for a lifetime appoint to the supreme court cause. as of today it seems leak his nomination to leave the va may turn out worse than what happened to harriet meyers. at least at the end of her ordeal everybody still thought she was nice and doing okay at

her current job and she went home to texas and has had a law career and everybody still likes, her, she had a got a reputation. >> that may have been true up until 24 hours ago when it came to ronney jackson. now that scenario is starting to fall apart. >> reporter: dr. jackson, can you say anything at all about the allegations that came out against you in the next few days? >> i will say i was looking forward to the hearing tomorrow and i look forward to getting it postponed and answering everybody questions. >> reporter: you heard the allegations about drink on the job, are you saying those a categorically untrue. >> i'm saying i am looking to the hearing and i can answer all the senator's questions. >> the ig report about a allegations? >> no, there was not. >> how much before you were formally announced as a nominee. >> sir, are you not withdrawing, will you continue this process?

>> a pleasure to meet you, sir. thank you. >> dr. ronney's interaction mostly dodging their questions. if you listen closely, he did give one director to one of their questions. >> was there an ig report about the allegations? >> no, there was not. >> it turns out it was first reported, the ig report was in 20 2012. navy medical inspector gem. basically a bad workplace environment for the medical staff working under jackson's leadership at the white house. now tonight i need to tell you the white house mounted a strangest to save ronney jackson's nomination. in order to save his nomination, they have second quarter lated positive evaluations by both president obama and president trump. this is evaluations at his

performance as a white house doctor. but they also made a weird decision about the inspector general report in 2012. first they told organizations including nbc news ronney jackson has never been the subject of an inspector general review. yeah, he has, the ap reported it. shortly after those remarks the white house, itself, distributed the inspector general review that is about ronney jackson. they said it doesn't exist and gave it to reporters. that was weird. so now we've got the inspector general report. it's not good. i don't know why they sent this around if they were trying to save his nomination. i'm going to quote to you a little bit from this inspector gem reporter on him which was sent out by the white house tonight. quote. the medical inspector general command climate findings were ob tained from officer and enlisted

focus groups and 14 interviews of staff members over a two-day period. finding one, lack of trust in leadership. trust in the organization is noted to be between two and three on a scale of one to ten. there is a severe and pervasive lack of trust in the leadership deteriorated to the fact that staff walk on egg shells. it's largely attributed to the open decision of captain kuhlman and can't jackson. now he's one star rear admiral ronney jackson. captain kuhlman and captain jackson complained about the other to seek alliances about them.

again the leader in this case who is being reviewed alongside this other officer who he apparently could not get along with, this is ronney jackson. there was given by reporters to sal vamg his nomination to leave the va. this was an inspector gem report. how he was doing running the relatively small office of the white house medical unit. we know people that served in the white house over multiple administrations and these positive evaluations that were released alongside this ig report that presidents and white house staff who were treated by dr. jackson in his capacity as a physician, they all liked him as a doctor. should he be something other than a doctor? should he run a very large complex organization with a complex leadership environment? well, this is a fairly devastating report about his capacity to lead in an organization of modest size. the conclusion of this ig report of 2012 is the white house

should consider moving him from his job because of his leadership capacity. and the white house didn't remove him. we know that multiple presidents have again liked him being their doctor both obama and trump recommended he get navy promotions still serving as the white house doctor. but this nomination to lead the veterans administration would be a very different job in a very different promotion the va has a budget of $185 billion. become. it has 360,000 employees. it streets 9 million veterans in terms of their health care. it's one of the hardest jobs in government. however well people like dr. jackson as a doctor, it brought people out of the woodwork in the military to caution against it. earlier this afternoon, cnn report thad two former white house medical staff had come forward, both to the senate

veterans affairs committee and also to cnn to allege questionable behavior by admiral jackson at the white house, quote, including excessive drink and toxic leadership. we seen the vague allegations and now we've got inexplicably this ig report by the white house which is very unfavorable to ronney jackson. we started to see the allegations and get flesh on the bones of jackson's nomination and tonight on npr, the top democrat senator john tester finally agreed to spell it all out in a long and frankly jaw dropping interview. did you hear this tonight? hold on. we got that coming up. stay with us.

mom you called? oh hi sweetie, i just want to show you something. xfinity mobile: find my phone. [ phone rings ]

look at you. this tech stuff is easy. [ whirring sound ] you want a cookie? it's a drone! i know. find your phone easily with the xfinity voice remote. one more way comcast is working to fit into your life, not the other way around. over the course of last night and into today there have been increasingly serious allegations swirling about the president's nominee to head the veteran's administration, the second largest agency of the u.s. government. the white house nominee ronney

jackson. there were increasingly serious noises from senators, until tonight it was a little hard to put your finger on exactly what he was being accused of. it's hard to know exactly what these allegations were, until a break through interview tonight. when montana senator john tester went on npr to do an interview with ari shapiro, where he finally just spelled it all out. >>

. >> democratic senator john tester of montana speak on npr with ari shapiro tonight. two things here, on that allegation of drink on the job, being drupg on duty, there are two additional instances in the "new york times" and from cnn. just as we are going to air tonight, reporters posted this at the "new york times". quote.

since then cnn has described another incident. in 2015, he was intoxicated and bavengd on a female door the incident became so noisy says one source familiar with the allegation that the secret service stopped jackson out of concern that he would wake then president barack obama. two sources had previously worked in the white house medical unit describing the same incident telling cnn it was definitely inappropriate. at the time it was reported up the chain of command, one of multiple drunken episodes on overseas trips, according to a

source familiar. members have been working through all of the allegations but have not substantiated the claims with little documentation available to corroborate them. important point. if the allegation about drink on the job is substantiated, it will become very important to ronney's nomination that he has talked to at least one senator about this spec allegation. he told kansas senator jerry moran unequivocally that he definitely never took a drink on the job. the senator said he got that specific assurance from jackson. jackson telling him, that that definitely did not happen. . >> we've now got multiple detailed allegations of multiple sources of drink on duty the drink allegation is substantiated, that will be a real problem.

probably an insurmountable problem for jackson's nomination. he said that to senator jerry moran. it will be worse if it's a part of a pattern. jackson told reporters there had never been an inspector general report against him. now know there was in 2012. it was pretty devastating. for any nominee to any senate confirmable position, it's never good to lie to a senator who will be voting on whether or not to conforeign minister you. >> that is usually fate am. on veteran's issues, it's maybe more crucial than for other areas. they point out the military times, not only do va get come firmed by overwhelming numbers. va nominees get nominated unanimously. there have been no zero votes out of the senate in the past 30 years. that's because there is a robust tradition of bipartisan consensus on veteran's issues.

on this as pales. if we are being honest that zero no votes record for 30 years is also because the senators who work on issues fully expect they will be assaulted ahead of times at the va. they expect no surprise, consensus picks. they expect no controversy. there was apparently no consultation with the veteran's committees in congress. there was no vetting and no interview for the job, either. there is now bipartisan concern about his experience and what's emerged in his backgrounds since the rubber hit the road on this nomition na. there is one more chapter for the book eventually written about what can possibly go wrong when you nominate someone for a big gigantic high profile important job without ever checking their background. joining us now is arti shapiro who did this break through interview with senator john

tester which finally shed some light on these allegations, thank you very much for your time tonight. >> thank you for having me, rachel. >> what was notable, it was long and detailed and for the first time put meat on the bones in terms of these allegations against jackson, an important point, though, senator tester is still telling you that these are all allegations and none have been documented other than by corroboration from other staffers who worked under jackson? >> that's right. i asked him whether there was any real time documentation, compla i want to human resources or age leak that? he said etching they had was verbal complaints. he said the complaints came to them. he said they spoke to more than 20 current active personnel who worked along side and underneath dr. jackson and esaid this is the reason he and they

postponed. >> it is staffed by active duty personnel. senator tester is telling you this wasn't the senate affairs committee going out and mounting an investigation? that's right. >> these were staffers that came back on their own terms. >> as you heard, could these staffers have had a political motivation? he said he heard the same stories from enough people that there seems to be a lot of smoke there. >> in terms of how this is going to play out, obviously since your interview we've now seen the "new york times" and cnn report on details of allegations drink on the job. the "new york times" reporting the one trip admiral was passed out for a medical matter. cnn is reporting that he had an incident in which he loudly knocked on somebody's door in the middle of the night while intoxicated to the point that the secret service intervened. it sounds like from your

interview and what we know about this situation, there may never be any written documentation of these incidents. it sounds like there wasn't a practice of documenting these things and reporting them. >> it does sound like a lot of the complaints were things that took place during presidential travel. when i spoke to senator tester, there were three buckets of complavenlts one was improperly prescribing drugs, and the other set of complaints was drinking on the job. both of those he said were primarily during the presidential travel the third set of complaints during a hostile work environment seems to be over arching beyond presidential trips. i thinks a senators dig into this. that question of when a senator traveled abroad will be a focus. >> in terms of the hostile work viral, we have seen the white house released this 2012 inspector environment at the white house medical unit while admiral jackson was one of the leaders there. these concerns about the hostile

work environment, was it your sense in talking to senator tester and npr's complaints on this, it extended beyond that post-2012 or were these all related to things that came up in that ig report five years ago? >> it's really hard to say the only inspector general report we have is from 2012. we know senator tester and his staff, i've heard from multiple administrations, but i didn't get a clear sense of whether they continue to the present day or whether this was something resolved with say personnel changes, reprimands or other things that might have happened behind the scenes that we haven't heard of yet. i say yet, there are so many reporters digging into this and senators digging into this, it seems only a matter of time until this all comes out. >> the host of all things considered on national public radio. i really praesht your time tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> we have a lot more to get to tonight. do stay with us.

we learned today that the fbi conducted a pre-dawn raid of former trump campaign manafort's home using a no knock warrant. yeah. no knock. no knock. it is the same kind of warrant donald trump used at the miss universe dressing room. no knock. hello! >> you know what, we were all wrong. in the end it's going to turn

out we were wrong about a lot more than this. today we learned that we have definitely been wrong about one part of the ongoing story of the president's campaign chair paul manafort facing felony counts in a prosecution led by special counsel robert mueller. we have been wrong him one of the first signs things were taking a serious furn for the president's campaign was when we got word the fbi raided his home in virginia last summer. the reporting at the time, you saw stephen colbert talking about was the raid was conducted in the pre dawn hours and fbi agents executed a no knock warrant. the washington post was first to report in august last year the search warrant on manafort's home was executed in the pre dawn hours. >> that same day abc news went further reporting that according to a source familiar with the investigation, manafort was awoken by a group of armed fbi act knocking on his bedroom door as they executed the warrant. no, that itself not his front door. his bedroom door.

cnn also reported it was a no knock warrant the "new york times" reported he was in bed when fbi acts picked the lock-of-on his front door and entered his home. i did it, basically, eb else who reported on that said it the same way. it turns out it's time for a no knock mea culpa. in a late night filing from special counsel mueller, we got this on page 6.

not a no knock warrant and not a pre-dawn raid. i did look it up. and i think on that day on july 26th, 2017, sunrise that day was 6:04 a.m. so maybe they knocked between 506789 and 6:04, maybe that calls eight pre-dawn raid. this is now cleared up. prosecutors are now saying and apparently paul manafort is not contesting the manafort raid was not based ontsz contractor on a no knock raid or in the dead of night even though everybody reported in detail at the time, including me, i'm sorry. this is yet another reminder whatever you think may be going on with the mueller investigation, any reporting to that effect is probably not coming from people who are actually working on the mueller investigation. special count sell's office,

itself, really doesn't leak. and when people talk to reporters of what the special counsel is supposedly doing or done, we now know they often get it wrong. the special count sell's office does speak. when they do have something to say, they tends to do so on the record through public court filings. we saw that in this new filing from last night. and that brings us to the next thing, we all have been getting wrong. we can clear up. that's next.

ways to lthe northern belly fat. percussion massage. not cool. freezing away fat cells with coolsculpting? now that's cool. coolsculpting safely freezes and removes fat cells. with little or no downtime. and no surgery. results and patient experience may vary. some rare side effects include temporary numbness, discomfort, and swelling. ask your doctor if coolsculpting is right for you. and visit coolsculpting.com today for your chance to win a free treatment. we're all under one roof now. congratulations. thank you. how many kids? my two. his three. along with two dogs and jake, our new parrot. that is quite the family. quite a lot of colleges to pay for though. a lot of colleges. you get any financial advice? yeah, but i'm pretty sure it's the same plan they sold me before. well your situation's totally changed now. right, right. how 'bout a plan that works for 5 kids, 2 dogs and jake over here? that would be great. that would be great. that okay with you, jake? get a portfolio that works for you now and as your needs change from td ameritrade investment management.

delivcrisp leaves of lettuce,s. freshly-made dressing. clean food that looks this good, eaten at your desk. panera. food as it should be. now delivered. there has been a ton of ink and a ton of breath exhausted over whether the president will end the russian investigation by shutting down robert mueller and the special counsel's office. it turns out those two things may no longer be related. shutting down mueller and the investigation. we now have a new filing from prosecutors showing they have taken another step of the

continued existence of their investigation even in the event the special coup sell's office gets raptured to heaven by president trump. this is a clear pattern. we saw it clearly in the mueller's decision to refer the michael cohen part to the u.s. attorney's office in, no. rather than pursue it themselves, it's new york prosecutors running that investigation. if the special counsel's office goes away the michael cohen investigation will not go away. we saw the same principle at work when they declared in open court it wasn't their own decision to bring charges against campaign chair paul manafort. they explained the tax division signed off on the tax-related charges and the national security division at doj signed off on other charges against him. so separate and apart from the special counsel's office, those charges exist and have been approved elsewhere in the justice department, making the special counsel go away doesn't make those charges go. we saw it also when mueller's team went out of their way to

make the point again in open court, somehow, if magically, mueller disappeared and the special counsel's office was no longer empanelled in these investigations, they wouldn't persist. the special counsel in charge of this prosecution is a long-term prosecutor with the internal authority to conduct this prosecution separate and aside from his role in the special coup sell's office. they declared to the judge in that case. well, now we are seeing it again, one more step. late last night we got new filings in the paul manafort case. in a couple foot noetdnotes, the government tells the court the search warrants executed opened paul manafort's home in a storage unit he has in virginia, those warrants didn't come from the special counsel's office, quote the warrant application makes clear that the agent who sought the warrant was assigned at the time to the fbi's international corruption squad. and the warrant application was reviewed by an assistant u.s.

attorney in the eastern district of virginia. so when it comes to these warrants that led to these raids on manafort. those weren't just out of a special counsel's office, they were signed off in the eastern district of virginia with advice from the fbi's international corruption squad. again, totally separate and apart from the special counsel's office, so out of all the political anxiety of mueller potentially being fierld or to make the special office go away the special counsel's team has rooted all their investigation in all these other parts of the justice department and law enforcement. even if you chop down the special counsel's office, its roots will survive and presumably they will spread new treats. no, no. no, honey, we meant that progressive would be protecting us 24/7. we just bundled home and auto and saved money. that's nothing to be afraid of. -but -- -good night, kyle. [ switch clicks, door closes ]

♪ i told you i was just checking the wiring in here, kyle. he's never like this. i think something's going on at school. -[ sighs ] -he's not engaging.

i think something's going on at school. ♪ most people come to la with big dreams. ♪ we came with big appetites. with expedia, you can book a flight, hotel, car, and activity... ...all in one place. ♪ everything you need to go. expedia searching for answers may feel overwhelming.

so start your search with our teams of specialists at cancer treatment centers of america. the evolution of cancer care is here. learn more at cancercenter.com/experts that means it's time to tap back into your regular life. oh wow. your majesty, this isn't what we had in mind. well, it's probably better. perhaps it's time for you to go. if you upgrade, i could stay. well we already did... well i'll finish up here, then move into the master...

whoa. this looks great, your majesty! thank you kirby! upgrade now to add a premium channel of your choice so you can keep on watching all year long. on this busy news night, to help us understand what's going on, we are very lucky to be joined by joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama. joyce, it's great to have you here tonight. thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> so we got new filings last night from the special counsel's office that say once again that there are law enforcement offices that aren't part of the special counsel's office that are involved in their investigation. in this case, its fbi's international corruption unit and a u.s. attorney's office in virginia who were part of -- or who got the warrants against paul manafort that are now being fought over in court. that significant in terms of the durability of that investigation, given all the threats to mueller's office?

>> you know, i think it is significant. the justice department, we sometimes laugh and say that we're the biggest, you know law firm in the country. we have offices every place. and that really could matter in the mueller investigation, because if you say he was somehow, you know, to disappear up into the ether without warning, there would still be a united states attorney's offices that would have jurisdiction to pursue already indicted cases. he has received signoff for charges brought in the area of tax from the tax division, in the area of national security from the national security division. both of those divisions have litigators, and andrew weissmann, one of mueller's chief prosecutors left the fraud section of the criminal division to go over to the special counsel's office. and we've seen pleadings that indicate he retains internal authority to bring prosecutions. so what this tells you is if you have faith in the career people

at the department, and i do, it's just part of prosecutorial dna to make sure that righteous cases move forward, then you have to believe that the good cases here will continue to progress whether mueller is in place or not. >> and joyce, just as a practical matter, am i right in thinking that just in terms of the logistics and a president's ability to hire and fire people, it's actually kind of hard for a president to fire career justice department officials, right? when it comes to a presidential appointee, sure, the president's decision holds. but with career folks, it's harder, isn't it? >> it's hard for anybody to fire career folks in government. you know, you have to go through all sorts of progressive disciplinary processes. the president can't just say let's fire a career employee tomorrow. it doesn't work that way. those people aren't going anyplace. >> joyce, one last question for you about jeff sessions. the attorney general reported

today by bloomberg news to be not recused from the investigation into michael cohen. that clearly is being led out of the southern district of new york. federal prosecutor here is in manhattan. does that decision surprise you? does that make sense to you? do you think it's important? >> well, it surprises me because at the end of the day, one of the reasons for recusal is to avoid the appearance of impropriety. and given how heavily the president pressured attorney general sessions over his original decision to recuse from the mueller investigation, this really looks in many ways like pandering to the president, avoiding another confrontation with the president. it may at the end of the day be a way of preserving the investigation. but on its surface, it looks like the sort of case that the attorney general should not have been involved in. it does continue to have aspects of the president's campaign that are still being investigated. and so it is troubling. we'll have to see how it plays

out in realtime. >> right. if part of what's going on with cohen is potential finance violations, this is the campaign from which sessions is supposed to be recused. joyce vance, thank you so much. great to see you. >> thanks. >> all right. we'll be right back. stay with us. why did i want a crest 3d white smile?

dinner date...meeting his parents dinner date. so i used crest. crest 3d white removes... ...95% of surface stains in just 3 days... ...for a whiter smile... that will win them over. crest. healthy, beautiful smiles for life. looking for a hotel that fits... whoooo. ...your budget? tripadvisor now searches over... ...200 sites to find you the... ...hotel you want at the lowest price. grazi, gino! find a price that fits. tripadvisor.

this one's below market price and has bluetooth. same here, but this one has leather seats! use the cars.com app to compare price, features and value. two things for your calendar. actually, one is coming up so quickly, it's more for your watch. polls are closing at 10:00 p.m. eastern in that closely watched congressional special election in arizona tonight.

deeply red district, but republicans have nevertheless been fighting and spending hand over fist to try to hold on the that seat. you'll be able the get more on that with lawrence o'donnell with polls closing momontito. tomorrow on live tv, attorney general jeff sessions is likely to get a really hot grilling. he is appearing before a senate subcommittee at a time when a lot of things around sessions are very controversial. this is a budget hearing. it's technically supposed to be routine and boring. things don't work that way in our politics anymore. so if you have been missing -- if you've been missing -- attorney general sessions and you've been looking forward to people getting to ask him pointed questions, 2:30 tomorrow, that live coverage should be fascinating. that does it for us tonight. we will see you again tomorrow. now it's time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell." good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, rachel. the hearing that seems increasingly unlikely by the minute is the