album. >> thank you. we're going to be reading axios a.m. in a little bit. you can sign up for the newsletter at axios.com. i'm yasmin vossoughian along side joumanna bercetche. when you have your staff taking the fifth amendment so they're not prosecuted. >> this is the pleading from michael cohen. this is the first time that the president's lawyer has sworn to the court he will plead the fifth. >> fifth amendment. >> michael cohen said based upon the advice of counsel i will assert my fifth amendment rights. >> you see, the mob takes the fifth. if you're innocent, why are you taking the fifth amendment. >> he cited the ongoing criminal investigation in the southern district of new york as the reason for taking the fifth amendment. >> taking the fifth amendment, how about that? >> of course back in 2016, michael flynn famously said -- quote, when you're given

immunity that means you've probably committed a crime. >> probably committed a crime. i mean -- my god. >> today the president's personal lawyer has stopped talking about his involvement in a hush money deal involving porn star stormy daniels and donald trump. >> the president actually, yeah, when he was campaigning, right there, he was saying, the mob takes the fifth, right? >> he takes the fifth when he needs to take the fifth. >> can i ask you something? have you guys noticed, do you feel it? willie and i have it? >> very few people have it? >> what's wrong? >> the president has it. >> what? >> kanye has it. >> what are you talking about? >> dragon energy. >> no, stop, gross. we're going to be joined live -- >> is that like tiger blood from the charlie sheen days. >> we'll be joined live by stormy daniels' attorney.

>> stop, i'm going to blame you. >> 50% of the time it works. >> stormy daniels' attorney, michael avenatti -- will be joining us at 8:00 a.m. for his reaction to cohen's legal strategy and mandy patinkin will be here. so welcome to "morning joe." >> hold on for a second. that's pretty exciting. >> yes, it is. >> it's thursday, april 26th. with us to kick things off. we have washington anchor for bbc world news america and co-author of the "new york times" -- i believe it was number one, "the confidence code for girls" katty kay. >> can i ask willie, other than the guttenberg bible, can you name any other book that's outsold "the confidence code."

>> king james, too. >> did you pass king james. >> joking aside, my daughter reads it every night. >> that's what we want to know that girls are reading it. >> this could change the next generation. >> columnist and associate editor for the "washington post," david ignatius is with us. and former -- >> love book sales. >> but you have dragon energy. >> i hope so. >> former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama and msnbc contributor joyce vance is up with us early. >> i got to figure this out, willie. the kids want to know, so for with quite some time you have stated that rappers like donald trump. we saw it even during the campaign where you had, beyonce was going out there and jay-z and he said i've got nothing personal against donald trump. well everybody else is saying he's going to be the end of the

world. chance, the rapper. comes out yesterday, saying hey, all black people don't have to be -- democrats. like what is that? what is donald trump's connection with, why would kanye and chance and jay-z -- >> he used to be, donald trump used to be one of the single-most name-checked person. people in all of hip hop music. because he had a lifestyle that was, people aspired to. whether it was the cars or the money or your name on everything. and so he was like, before he was president of the united states he was the tv host. he was, he was somebody that they could aspire to or at least aspire to that lifestyle. but i think now the terms have changed a little bit, so that's why you see so much outrage against kanye. kanye does have an album coming out. >> he's a bit of a marketer. >> we have several legal

stories. surrounding president trump this morning that we're going to get to. plus questions continue to swirl about trump's cabinet, including new questions about whether dr. ronny jackson will step down from consideration for va secretary, amid new allegations which are -- which are weird. >> katty kay, either this guy is the most out of control, crazed admiral ever, or this is the biggest political, biggest political hit job that we have seen in recent years. >> it's interesting, you're hearing reports from previous administration staffers actually defending ronny jackson, saying no, they weren't aware of any of these problems. and yet, the senate now saying senate democrats now saying actually we have multiple sources. with allegations about him banging on the door of a female staffer's room when he was drunk in the middle of the night during a presidential trip and

they have various sources on that. these stories about that he was liberal in his prescribing of pills to people who worked in -- also the upper, some white house staffers have had as well. i have heard from staffers of previous administrations that they did get this drug, the one that keeps you awake a lot, that one was fairly readily available at the white house. >> need that. >> all of us do at 3:00 a.m. this is one of those cases where you have to dig deeper in this investigation. if he crashed a car and he was drunk there ought to be some kind of record. we ought to be able to find that out fairly easily. >> he said he never has. >> i would have thought in the next couple of days we're going to start seeing whether this story holds water or whether it doesn't. >> after spending a very handsy day with president trump, french president emmanuel macron speaks to congress. in the address that many saw as a rebuke of trumpism.

that's interesting, we'll get to all of that. we're going to start this morning with president trump's long-time personal lawyer, michael cohen. who says he will exercise his fifth amendment rights against self-incrimination in a civil case brought by porn star stormy daniels. daniels is suing cohen for defamation, for suggesting she lied about an affair with the president in 2006. while also suing trump, claiming her nondisclosure agreement arranged by cohen is not valid, because the president never signed it. the white house has repeatedly denied the affair. in cohen's decision to remain silent. he cited the ongoing criminal investigation by the fbi and federal prosecutors in new york. daniels' attorney, michael avenatti, reacted. >> this is the personal attorney to the president of the united states, for at least the last ten to 12 years. that same individual that the president pointed you, other members of the media and the american people to, for answers,

is now refusing to provide those answers and claiming he can't answer the questions because the answers will incriminate him. this is a big deal. >> as we mentioned, mr. avenatti will join us at the top of the 8:00 hour this morning. >> it's so interesting that a couple of weeks ago when people were comparing donald trump's organization to the mob, some trump supporters who are very offended by that. and yet, you have donald trump saying of the campaign that only the mob takes the fifth. and here his personal attorney for the past ten, 15 years, is now claiming he's going to take the fifth. i got no problem with people taking the fifth. it's their constitutional right. but donald trump does. and donald trump and michael flynn does. and donald trump has long said that if you take the fifth there's something wrong with you and again, the campaign said, only the mob takes the fifth. >> so joyce vance, what does

this decision by michael cohen mean for the investigation? >> it's interesting how we see the different pieces coming together. we have cohen taking the fifth amendment in the civil case with stormy daniels. because of the criminal case in new york. and we don't really know yet what the criminal case is about, only that that search warrant has been executed. but yesterday attorney general jeff sessions testifying on the hill said that he didn't have to recuse from the michael cohen case. and he was asked if you discover that there are allegations in that case that relate to the campaign, the 2016 campaign, will you recuse? and he said yes. and now i'm a little bit confused. because we've been assuming all along that that criminal case was about campaign finance violations. that cohen, in paying stormy daniels, had somehow violated campaign finance law. that seems contrary to what the attorney general said. so we'll have to watch this

develop. >> fascinating. the "washington post" reports that another personal lawyer for president trump, former new york city mayor, rudy giuliani, met with special counsel robert mueller on tuesday. reopening negotiations about a presidential interview. while cautioning that the president remains resistant. giuliani pressed mueller for clarity on whether the probe is expected to end. according to three people familiar with the talks. in response, mueller reportedly reiterated he would like a chance to ask trump questions about steps he took during the transition in the early months of his administration. giuliani joined the trump legal team last week, hoping to negotiate an end to the investigation within a couple of weeks. earlier, discussions of a presidential sit-down with mueller reportedly broke off after the raid of michael cohen's office. residents and hotel room. >> we'll get david and joyce in on this. joyce, let me start with you.

what's the significance of a meeting, a potential meeting between bob mueller and donald trump? is it something at this-month that bob mueller needs for his investigation? >> he really doesn't need it. and it's rare, you know that prosecutors will talk to a target of an investigation before they indict. but we've heard at least through sources that come from outside of the mueller investigation, that trump is not a target. he's been told he's only a suspect. and so at some point mueller's team will have to decide is he a target, or is he just a witness? if he's a witness he can be easily subpoenaed to the grand jury like anybody else. but if he's not a target simply because they don't want to indict a sitting president, then we're in this really unusual wild card situation that we've not seen come up before. but you make a case for obstruction. not based op your interview with the target so really at the end of the day. this is not a critical sort of a sit-down. >> it's interesting, too,

there's talk, david ignatius, about rudy giuliani using his past, a personal relationship with bob mueller. to perhaps massage mueller, get information out of him. what do you think the role of giuliani is in the big picture? >> i think he's the big negotiator. the experienced guy, the personal relationship with mueller as you say. giuliani said a fascinating thing last night to the "wall street journal." he said does the special prosecutor, being mueller, really have an open mind? we're going to assess that. what does that mean? what does the proposal that giuliani, as the president's lawyer wants to make to the special prosecutor with an open mind? is it to close the investigation? is it to time-limit it? is it to restrict it to certain associates of trump and the campaign? we have no idea. it's obvious from that quote from giuliani that he's seeking some sort of broad negotiation, to which mueller might well

respond. i'm a criminal prosecutor. not my job to have an open mind. it's to complete the case and that's what i'm going to do. i'm going to go where the evidence leads me. >> we're learning that dr. ronny jackson, president trump's nominee for va secretary, is in talks to possibly withdraw from consideration. as new allegations emerge against him. two sources with knowledge of the conversations tell nbc news that dr. jackson has grown frustrated with the process. and is in active discussions with senior white house officials about withdrawing his name from consideration for the cabinet post. nbc news obtained a two-page document compiled by the top democrat on the veterans affairs committee. senator john tester. according to the summary, the white house medical unit had questionable record-keeping for pharmaceuticals. it was distributing under dr. jackson's leadership. the summary also notes quote, multiple incidents of

drunkenness on duty. adding that jackson once got drunk at a secret service going away party and wrecked a government vehicle. now in a brief interview with nbc news, jackson denied that specific allegation. saying quote, i never wrecked a car. and that it should be pretty easy to prove. dr. jackson said earlier this week that he looked forward to a confirmation hearing so he can answer lawmakers' questions. despite the new allegations, the white house continues to stand by dr. jackson. >> as a white house physician, has been impeccable. in fact because dr. jackson has worked within arm's reach of three presidents, he's been vetted by at least three nominees. he's had four background investigations conducted during his time in the white house, including an fbi investigation conducted as part of the standard nomination vetting process. >> and katty, republicans may be

wavering now, three republican senators said they want the white house to withdraw the nomination. but again i'm having a little trouble understanding. when we came out the day after and at least i was critical of what dr. jackson said about donald trump. his mind was wonderful and he weighed 239 pounds -- >> super human. >> which i personally know is a lie. >> that he could live to be 200 -- i was critical of him. i said you couldn't believe much of anything that he said and you immediately had people like david axelrod and members of the obama administration say egg in was a man of high integrity and they knew him and respected him and trusted him. he's worked in three administrations. it's hard to believe that an abusive, pill-popping drunk is going to be wandering around presidents in three separate administrations, something doesn't add up. >> specifically the allegation that he was drunk while on duty.

because that would potentially put the president in jeopardy, right? that means you are risking the president's own health and safety, by having somebody who is not up to the job. and i haven't heard these allegations before. there do just seem to be too many of them for us to discount them on the face of it it's interesting listening to sarah sanders. she doesn't specifically address each of the allegations. >> there is no due process here. you look at the list -- >> well except that there ought to be due process when it comes to this car wreck. we ought to be able to find the evidence. we ought to be able to have the investigation that does come up with some of the evidence. >> david ignatius, you look down the laundry list of what the democrats have said about him. it could have been said by one or two people. he was in a competitive situation. i don't know what's going on here. i'm certainly not defending the man. there seems to be a lot of smoke there. but can you tell us where the fire is coming from? >> we don't know yet. i'm looking at the document.

this is a reminder in a sense why raw fbi reports, raw interview summaries from people shouldn't be made public until there's an attempt to verify that they're accurate. because they do a lot of damage. when i step back from the ronny jackson affair, what strikes me is the iron whim of the president in deciding he's the right person to head the huge agency in the first place, without much checking, whether they went into the details of his past prescribing behavior or not. i don't know. but it was a strange decision. immediately seemed so from this doctor, giving him a glowing report. and then the way the president just sort of threw it over to congress and to jackson, you clean this up. you decide. whatever you want to do. those are the two things that strike me. we've seen that kind beef hafr pretty consistently. and i think that's the core of the problem, it's a sloppy

nomination about an important job. >> there's no doubt about it, willie, the man, if you look at his background, even if he was, had a stellar background, he's not qualified to run one of the largest and most complicated bureaucracies in washington, d.c. >> that's the point that veterans advocates groups are making publicly and privately when i talk to them. say whether or not he handed out ambien on cross-country flights or international flights is immaterial. the problem is this has nine million enrollees, veterans, who count on this health care system. they need somebody who has experience running a bureaucracy. somebody who can take the job seriously. it doesn't mean he's not a good doctor. he may very well be. to your point about the obama people, i've been amazed by the sheer number of privately, people who worked in the obama administration, messaging me and emailing me and saying -- this guy, you know, yes, that he gave out some ambien on flights, that's normal. maybe he had a couple of drinks after hours with people. but they, to a man, say, he was a great doctor, a good man,

president obama wrote him four separate commendations, they're surprised to see this, and they're suspicious that you're suspicious of, that somebody has some kind of agenda to push him aside. >> i don't know if it's coming out of the pentagon. i don't know where it's coming. i don't think the man is qualified. i'm not sitting here fighting for him to run the va. >> this seems over the top. >> this seems over the top. what this does do is the next time somebody who is qualified to run an agency like this, they'll say wait a second, i'm going to have a lot of people trash me, saying i'm drunk, saying i'm abusive. they could have gone to one or two people that were angry with ronny jackson for some reason over the past 30 years who did that. >> but we will see car accident evidence. >> we do know, we going to his character. we do know numerous officials from previous administrations, who have reached out, proactively without being asked,

and said this is a good guy. >> the car could be critical. he is has now said the car accident did not happen. so if we find out that there's any record of the fact that the car accident did happen, that would throw into question any statements about his other activities as well. you've said many times the president has a desire, part of the reason he was elected, to put into office people who are unusual, people who are not part of the whole management, political process. and that's why he chooses somebody like ronny jackson. because he likes the idea of throwing the system up in the air and saying you don't have to do it the normal way. >> unfortunately we've seen over the past year and a half, the consequences of that. those are people who are ill-equipped to do their job. and a lot of americans would suffer in the last thing we want to see are vets suffering, who are already laboring under very difficult system. so joyce, the lead in the "new york times" supreme court signal support for a travel ban. that's not surprise. we've been saying here for a long time, of all the

president's powers, this ranks near the top. and if the president has, in the third iteration of this, has basically selected the same countries that barack obama's administration had concerns with, the six or seven or eight countries, then isn't that almost impossible for the supreme court to overturn? >> it sounded from yesterday's argument like the four justices who were willing to vote against the ban would not be able to pick up a fifth vote. so i think you're right, joe. it looks like this is part of the president's program that will get smooth sailing. unless as they sometimes do, the justices were asking questions for their own benefit. educating each other and maybe a surprising result. but no one truly expects that to happen here. >> it would have to be kennedy. and even kennedy sounded skeptical yesterday, right? >> i think that's right. there was some thought that perhaps the chief justice might side with the four justices who

were against the ban. it didn't sound that way in oral argument. >> joyce vance, thank you so much for getting up early for us in alabama. thanks for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning j " joe," we'll follow up on yesterday's headline, featuring mick mulvaney, what else he told bankers, after admitting he only met with lobbyists who were willing to pay. plus the french president comes to capitol hill and denounces some of the major themes defining the trump presidency. will his next meeting with the president be a little chummy or less so? four-star admiral james tavridis weighs in. you're watching "morning joe."

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freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. europe and the united states must face together the global challenges of the century. and we cannot take for granted. we have two possible ways ahead. we can choose isolationism, withdrawal, and nationalism. this is an option. it can be tempting to us. as a temporary remedy to all fears. but closing the door to the world will not stop the evolution of the world. it will not douse, but inflame the fears of our citizens. >> so katty, tell me, how is this touching love-fest -- >> she likes macron.

>> how is it working for the brits? >> there's a lot of concern in london that the special relationship has now become not at all the special relationship at all and that we have been summarily ousted and that trees theresa may didn't manage to come to washington. >> here's what i think macron did well. he came here aware that his own public back in france has no great love for donald trump. there's a political calculation he has to make. if he comes to washington and plays too cozy with donald trump and doesn't get anything, the french public going to say, what are you doing? getting close to this guy that we don't like and you've got nothing in return. >> which by the way happened to theresa may her first time over here. >> she came over here and as she was flying back. the policy changed and she had to say something about it. what macron did, by standing up in congress and saying we do defend liberalism.

we do defend globalism. we don't like nationalism, we don't like the protectionist mode that is effectively happening here in this administration, he sort of stood up for french liberal principles, he didn't look like he was being steamrolled. that's something that not very many lead erz have managed to do. either they've been in the angela merkel camp and stand up to donald trump, but he seems to straddle these two things. >> merkel will be at the white house tomorrow and trump has a man-crush just because he's a looks person. but that's just me. >> a lot of flash. >> joining us former nato supreme allied commender, retired four-star navy admiral, james tavridis, chief international security and diplomacy analyst for nbc news and msnbc. admiral tavridis. if you listened to macron's speech in congress yesterday. if you got past the hand-holding

and kissing and the wiping of the dandruff off the lapel in the oval office, macron was railing against trump's entire theory of the case, he was railing against the america-first policy. he was railing against isolationism and nationalism. and withdrawal. he was saying we're got to stay in the iran deal and rejoin the paris climate accord, he stood up there before all of congress and basically said what trump is doing here is not the way to go. >> he did. and i thought the most important comment that macron made, in fact was the word "fear." essentially he was saying we cannot take counsel of our fears. and i thought his vision in my view is the correct one. and since he's french i'll quote napoleon. i like quoting napoleon because i'm short and short people have to stick together. but napoleon said a leader is a dealer in hope. a leader is a dealer in hope.

i thought yesterday in congress we saw a leader who is dealing in hope and i think unfortunately our president tends to deal in fear. and i'll give you a pragmatic point as well. that macron i think sees, which is they look at this administration as a big complicated difficult machine. i think macron has taken a very french in a sense a very pragmatic approach. he quoted voltaire yesterday, which is that life is a shipwreck, save what you can. i think the french are trying to save what they can. and i applaud it. i think the u.s. and france together, especially if we can pull nato into this. which is how you do get the brits in, how you do square the circle with germany, i think there is some trade space that we can work globally together. >> voltaire, i never knew he applied to this show. that has to be morning joe is a shipwreck. salvage what you can.

>> that's our new show motto. >> french quotes we've got to get you on lafayette to complete the trifecta. let's talk about the iran deal, the president said yesterday or two days ago he was open to a new version of the iran deal. he wants to make some amendments, which was interesting. the back and forth between the two of them was at the beginning of the trip, macron said stay in the deal and very publicly in front of the cameras, with macron next to him, president trump railed against the deal and finally got to some version of the iran deal i would consider. where do you think this goes now. >> unfortunately the president has a tendency to shall we say, whipsaw us with policy. to me the most shocking one a couple of weeks ago was, you know what, i may come back in the trans-pacific partnership that was pretty amazing. but that dropped like a stone and we've heard nothing else about it i have the feeling particularly with john bolton, the new national security adviser, hawk on iran.

mike pompeo, the new secretary of state, tough on iran. i think the president will try to make the deal harder. that's going to be tough. i think the chances of the iranians buying a new deal are roughly the same as the mexicans paying for the wall and we're headed toward unfortunately, a very difficult situation in iran over the next i would say four weeks. the key here is how does it impact the north korea deal. if you're kim jong un and you see the rug being pulled out from the iranians, i think you're less inclined to want to give up the nukes and cut a big, beautiful deal. because back to whipsawing policy, all of a sudden it looks different than it did a few weeks or months earlier. >> david ignatius, after the speech before congress, you caught up with president macron. what can you tell us about that interview. that conversation?

>> i sat down late yesterday with a group of journalists, included our own andrea mitchell. and others. for about an hour with macron. it was absolutely fascinating. it was very direct on the record and explaining this visit. here's baseline. he sees himself as a broker, an honest broker is the phrase he used. between the u.s. and europe. first, second, between the u.s. and russia, he sees that relationship was broken. and then finally between the u.s. and the iran, he said that he's going to pick up the phone and call president rouhani in tehran as soon as he leevs washington and talk through what the iranian response must be. on the flight over to washington he had been on the phone to vladimir putin to talk about the trip. he is trying to position france. in this new europe where britain

really recedes as a key partner for the united states as the major interlocutor for the u.s. he's a strikingly, i want to say trump-like person, he's a flatterer. he has a manipulative side, he's opportunistic. he described himself to us at one point as being like trump. i'm a maverick in my system just like donald trump is in the u.s. system. we asked him whether he was embarrassed by the weird touchy-feely vibes of the first day. and he just sort of smiled and said that this is a relationship that's evolving. you could say he got his own in the next day when he gave that speech. >> i don't know where you go from there. >> i think it's evolved. let me, let me ask you, david and admiral tavridis and katty. let me know if i'm overreaching here.

has there been a time, if this continues, france really will be at the center of, of at least european affairs as it pertains to the united states. has there been a time since 1919 when wilson was at versailles, the french have had this central of a role on the foreign stage. >> the french were not standing up for american interests when it came to the war in iraq. and the reason that we are seeing this displacement for the macron has the opportunity to take the world stage, and to forge this relationship with the united states, is because britain is consumed by brexit. we have no bandwidth in our government to deal with anything else to deal with the incredibly complicated process of extracting ourselves from the european union. and it's inevitably going to

turn britain inward at a time when france is looking out where there are serious differences between macron and trump. macron is a globalist and trump is not. but macron has found a way to flatter trump to get to him, to reach out to him at a time when britain, even if we had a leader who had some kind of panache and charisma on the world stage and wanted to play that real, the process of brexit is so difficult and so complicated, we can't get that. >> so admiral are we moving towards a high-water mark for french influence on the world stage? >> well, willie, asked for a lafayette quote. i won't give you a quote. but i think we ought to remember, with all due respect to the special relationship to the united kingdom, we were at war with britain and it was france, it was lafayette, it was the battle of yorktown that effectively created -- >> seriously? okay. we're friends, we're over that. >> i'm going to call that the

high-water mark of french/american cooperation. >> that was a low blow. >> since then, we have seen both britain and france as we did in the syrian strikes, stand with us. i want to close on a security point. which is how professional, how terrific the french armed forces are. we all know that brits are the top military nation in nato. with the united states. france is very, very close. i commanded a lot of french troops in afghanistan, syria, the balkans, libya, they're very good. let's keep the family together. let's keep the band together and i think nato is the best vehicle to be doing that. >> and today is a good time to remind americans, even during the most terrible times between the french, united states, 2002, 2003, 2004. i would talk to people in the intel community. when you started speaking poorly of france they would cut you off

immediately and say the french are professionals and they are allies behind the scenes. we are, we've long had a great friend. in the french. >> that is especially true. i think in the military, special operations world, when i've traveled to syria over the last couple of years. you don't see the french are there doing some of the toughest work. on the intelligence side, it's a lot more complicated relationship. the french have a history of collecting against the united states. and it's blown up occasionally. i do think that as katty was saying, as this conversation suggests, macron is trying to position france in a new place. and we'll have to see when chancellor merkel really viewed as the leader of europe arrives in washington tomorrow, how comfortable is germany with that? is there tension there? it was an absolutely fascinating trip. i haven't seen anybody hijack

the u.s. congress the way macron did, since bibi netanyahu. >> admiral james tavridis. thank you very much for being back on the show. coming up, senators dick blumenthal and jeff flake will be here, they both will cast critical votes today for mike pompeo as secretary of state. also a new headline from axios just moments ago. white house sources tell axios that they expect white house physician ronny jackson to withdraw as president trump's nominee to run the veterans affairs department after democrats on capitol hill circulated harsh new allegations. we'll be following the developments in that story, all ahead on "morning joe."

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so, 8:00, yeah. michael avenatti will be on the show. he has a lot to say about his strategy toward michael cohen and donald trump as it pertains to stormy daniels and payments made to her. >> willie, there's always a joke on twitter that there's always a tweet. there's always a tweet. but there's also always a sound

clip with donald trump. and in this case, what did donald trump say about anybody that takes the fifth? >> he said the mob takes the fifth. people guilty of crimes take the fifth. he said that at campaign rallies a number of times. michael cohen can plead the fifth and michael avenatti will talk through this at 8:00 this morning. but it doesn't change the evidence that was gathered in michael cohen's office and his hotel room and his home. >> they'll have to look more closely and try to tie it all together. >> the southern district has all that information. so whether or not he deliver it is and explains whether or not the president of the united states directed that payment may be immaterial if they can show evidence. >> katty, in this case pleading the fifth doesn't make much of a difference, does it? if you have all of the documents that actually go into greater detail about what you would testify to, anyway? >> my understanding from lawyers is having documents and emails is so much more useful than having what somebody says, anyway. because people interpret things as they want to remember things or don't remember things as they

want to they can give you a contorted view of what reality is. >> what i don't understand, i've seen it in some reports, maybe you can explain it, is how this impacts the attorney/client relationship. i understand it could have some bearing on that. >> the argument is going to be made by the southern district of new york that he's not really an attorney. that's one of the reasons that cohen's lawyers had him, had him throw sean hannity under the bus. saying no, no, no, we're acting in an attorney/client sort of relationship. but. >> what is it? >> we're going to be finding out. but at the same time, if somebody is using an attorney/client relationship in furtherance of a climb, furtherance of a crime. that relationship is no longer confidential and that's what the sourp district of new york is going to be arguing. and it's going to be very hard for michael cohen to push back. i'm not so sure that michael

cohen is going to push back. if you don't want to be seen crossing the president, maybe taking the fifth is the best thing to do and letting the documents speak for themselves. >> attorney/client privilege goes out the window if in those documents there's a crime being committed. the crime fraud exception. it doesn't matter if you're talking to a client. if in fact he was a client. there's some debate whether or not there was an attorney/client relationship there. if there was a crime being committed that goes away. >> he tweets, he warns michael cohen, i'm watching you. could that be construed as witness tampering? >> gosh. >> i've got to believe. he usually does all of his obstruction and witness tampering in pub public, usually in front of russian foreign ministers. then there's this, which is -- stunning. amid the uproar over the reported comments by acting

director of the consumer financial protection bureau, mick mulvaney to a summit of bankers, the agency has released a transcript of his remarks. mulvaney made the speech at the american bankers association event on tuesday. critics were outraged. following a "new york times" report which had quotes of mulvaney telling industry executives how they should press lawmakers hard to pursue their agenda. the transcript released by the cfpb does confirm that mulvaney told the crowd that when he was in congress, if you were a lobbyist who never gave us money, i didn't talk to you. if you were a lobbyist who gave us money, i might talk to you. but the transcript shows mulvaney also told the bankers, if you came from back home and sat in my lobby, i would talk to you without exception. regardless of the financial contributions. speaking yesterday on msnbc democratic senator elizabeth warren who helped create the agency, who created the agency

mulvaney runs had some blunt criticism for him and the trump administration over this matter. >> i'll tell you what it means, it means most corrupt administration ever. the fact that mick null mul vainy would say that is what in effect is a public place, they knew the press was there and he would say it and figure hey, why not, that's the kind of administration he's in. >> joining us now, i agree with. that pulitzer prize-winning columnist and associate editor of the "washington post" and msnbc political analyst, eugene robinson and former director of the democratic national committee, howard dean is with us. >> so mick mulvaney. it sounds like you read it, maybe he was trying to make a point. saying constituents are at the top of sort of my food chain. but it still doesn't to me, it still doesn't really matter.

if you place anybody, even lobbyists, paying lobbyists above nonpaying lobbyists, that's corruption. >> well the problem is he was telling the truth and i and i s you know as well as i do a tremendous number of members do it that way. >> right. >> i actually worked part time for a law firm, one of the advice i'd give is don't give money to either side because people remember that. the problem is, mulvaney goes on and says if you don't give money to anybody, you won't get access, it's a huge problem. >> right. >> what a great person, gene, to run the consumer financial protection bureau assigned to protect people from having their money stolen from them. >> this is another episode that you can't make up of this administration. in any other endeavor in life, if the situation that mulvaney -- the practice that mulvaney described would be called bribery.

this is absolute corrupt practice because you're going to give that sort of access and ultimately compliance to people who give you money and essentially bribe you to do it and people who don't bribe you, sorry, you sit by the door. and this is a guy who's supposed to be protecting consumers from the depp rbig banks and he's sh them how to get their way. again, how could you invent this? and how can we stand for this. is there a point to the cfpb with mulvaney running it? >> no. >> again, it comes, willie, from an administration that was going to drain the swamp. an administration that had the head of the department of hhs flying around the country on

private jets, who has scott pruitt with maxwell smart bulletproof phone booths and, you know, a security detail bigger than the president of columbia that flies, again, first class any time it's on the taxpayers' dime. this is the swampiest swamp i have ever seen. and you add on top of that a guy who is supposed to be protecting consumers going to bankers saying this is how you get around the rules. and the biggest problem of his quote is it suggests all people do that in washington. all people do not do that in washington. >> well, we're going to hear, by the way, today from scott pruitt. he's testifying before congress about the answer for those things you laid out, including the $45,000 soundproof booth. but governor, it's surprising

about the mulvaney comment, not that it's happening but that somebody said it out loud. >> there's no question this administration is the most corrupt in my lifetime, including richard nixon, which is quite a low bar. but in fairness, the system encourages this and it's been going on for a very long time. trump didn't invent this. this is legal. this is legalized bribery. i remember being in ukraine and explaining why oligarchs shouldn't run political parties and then i had to stop and say, oh, i can't give you this smart of my spiel because our supreme court has just legalized oligarchs running political parties in the united states so this is a major systemic problem. in a sense, this is great because trump is underlining how corrupt it is but this has been going on long before trump got there. >> but the irony is that it was donald trump, the guy who appointed all these swamp creatures, these yes clurs frcr

these creatures from the black lagoon told us this is exactly how it worked. he said he gave money to politicians because that bought him access and the system is rigged and it's crooked but the problem is he went on to say i'm going to clean it up and, of course, he's just made it worse and worse and worse. >> and another problem, dr. dean right now, the head of the v.a., ronny jackson, the white house physician, we're hearing from axios he may rwithdraw his name from consideration. >> what's going on there? >> this is fascinating. you can always suspect revenge and ulterior motives. this is -- i think there must be something -- some real fire h e here. why would you go after the personal white house physician vouched for by obama if this isn't true? i don't think this is a hit job. i really don't. i think there's something really wrong going on here. i don't know what it is.

this is not an appointment you go to the mat to kill. i can understand pompeo, he's a high profile person. he made enemies along the way. >> on the prescription side of things, we ought to track this and find out whether it's true or not or not, if you're giving out pills without prescriptions there's no record. >> and i saw the wreck of the government car. it's not that hard to conceal that stuff if it's happening inside the white house. >> david ignatius, do you know what enemies dr. jackson would have that would not his nomination killed? >> i think there was a general feeling when he gave such a glowing report about donald trump's health is this doctor fully credible? there was commentary about that so he made himself an enemy of trump's critics. clearly, deep down in this white house military medicine operation there's some deep anger and bitterness.

the tester report, released by senator tester, cites 23 people, most of them in uniform, said the report, who'd given details, allegations about dr. jackson. so it's one of those things where unbeknownst to anyone there's been a lot of nasty office fighting going on clearly in that office and it's amazing that they put the nomination forward given that. >> howard dean, eugene robinson, thank you both for being on this morning. coming up, more on what joe and willie just mentioned. >> you cannot abuse taxpayer money. and i don't care who you are, i don't care how big of a big shot you think you are, you can't abuse taxpayer money. i can't think of any better way to put it. he needs to stop acting like a chuckle head, he's leading with his chin. >> republican senator john kennedy calling the epa chief a chuckle head. we'll preview scott pruitt's

testimony today on capitol hill. new reporting says he's got a strategy to deal with the tough questions -- blame someone else. and michael cohen is clamming up when it comes to donald trump. the president's personal attorney is pleading the fifth about stormy daniels. what it means for the investigations next on "morning joe." t bring us together shouldn't drive us apart. but when you experience sudden, frequent, uncontrollable episodes of laughing or crying that are exaggerated or simply don't match how you feel, it can often lead to feeling misunderstood this is called pseudobulbar affect, or pba. a condition that can occur from brain injury... or certain neurologic conditions like stroke or dementia. nuedexta can make a difference by significantly... ...reducing pseudobulbar affect episodes. tell your doctor about medicines you take. some can't be taken with nuedexta. nuedexta is not for people with certain heart conditions. serious side effects may occur. don't take with maois or if you are allergic to dextromethorphan or quinidine. tell your doctor if you have bleeding or bruising.

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columnist and associate editor for the "washington post," david ignatius. joining the conversation, "new york times" washington bureau chief elizabeth bumiller. and law professor at george washington university, jonathan turley. good to have you all. >> we've got a lot of talk -- willie, i saw your interview with bill murray, went to see "isle of dogs." wes anderson, that was great. i'm a data guy. >> data driven. >> nate silver and i were in front of the screen and i'm like -- >> no. >> he uses a typewriter, a lot of people don't know. >> almost three and a half million people watched your interview with bill murray and that's a lot of people on sunday morning. >> it was our two-year anniversary, we've been plugging away for two years. >> little engine that could. >> i like to think so. >> that's willie. we've been getting incredible guests. we have a small staff that busts their humps for seven days a week. >> small staff. >> we stayed lean and it's paying off so sunday morning, sunday today on nbc.

>> almost three and a half million viewers. >> we love it. >> if you look at a graph -- >> you're going up. you are going up. can we look at our staff? we have -- we have three people in there, a tumble weed and i think -- >> there it is. >> no stray dogs today. >> there's a few other people in there. >> we have a couple others. >> crickets. punchy. president trump's long time personal lawyer michael cohen says he will exercise his fifth amendment rights against self-incrimination -- >> wait, what? i don't understand. >> brought by porn star stormy daniels, daniels is suing cohen for defamation suggesting she lied about an affair with the president in 2006. also suing trump, claiming her non-disclosure agreement arranged by cohen is not valid because the president never

signed it. the white house denied the affair. in cohen's decision to remain silent, he cited the ongoing criminal investigation by the fbi and federal prosecutors in new york. interesting. meanwhile, a lawyer for donald trump has informed a federal judge that the president would make himself available "as needed" in the legal battle over documents seized in the cohen raids earlier this month. cohen filed a federal case joined by president trump to restrict the material prosecutors can use. if deciding judge kimba wood decides to appoint a special master to determine which of the seized materials are privileged, trump's attorney told the court the president would aid in that review. the judge would need to authorize the president's involvement -- >> i don't think that's going to happen. jonathan turley, a couple of questions. first of all, michael cohen is pleading the fifth, that is

certainly his constitutional right. but do you have any idea exactly what legal jeopardy right now he's trying to avoid by pleading the fifth? >> well, there's obviously jeopardy to his client. first and foremost it's not great optics. you have a former fbi director saying that you're acting like a mob boss and your attorney is acting like luka brazzi so it's not a great situation for the president to be in. but michael cohen doesn't have a choice going forward. he can either defend his actions under oath or take this type of step. it reflects he understands that he has really undermined any chance of confidentiality or attorney/client privilege over these communications. he has done everything he can to make it difficult to protect the communications of his client.

voltaire said he was a great fan of the truth but not so much martyrdom and i think for cohen, he's making a choice here that he doesn't see a good way out of th this. he also tripped these wires. michael avenatti did a good strategy in pulling him into california, getting him to make public statements. he did everything you possibly could do wrong and now he doesn't have many options. >> we're going to have michael avenatti on at 8:00 a.m. to talk about what's going on in that remarkable case. i want to show you quickly yesterday's headline of cohen pleading the fifth with what donald trump said about people who pleaded the fifth on the campaign trail. >> when you have your staff taking the fifth amendment,

taking the fifth so they're not prosecuted. >> this is the pleading from michael cohen. this is the first time the president's lawyer has sworn to a court he will plead the fifth. >> fifth amendment, fifth amendment, fifth amendment. horrible. >> michael cohen said today "based upon the advice of counsel i will assert my fifth amendment rights." >> you see, if you're innocent, why are you taking the fifth amendment? >> he cited the ongoing criminal investigation in the southern district of new york as the reason for taking the fifth. >> taking the fifth amendment, how about that? >> so elizabeth bumiller. you see the hypocrisy there. but beyond that, is it really a big deal in this investigation, cohen pleading the fifth? they have his material from his office, his home, his hotel room. >> it doesn't really affect the investigation by the southern distri

district. they have years and years of documents, of e-mails, business records, likely correspondence between the president and michael cohen so that's what the white house has so on edge about what's happening in new york. to the point they are far more concerned about the investigation in new york than they are even about the mueller investigation in washington. >> so jonathan turley, what about this -- the business of the president offering to kind of get first cut at some of that evidence? what does that even mean? is there a judge who would allow that? to allow the subject of an investigation to get in first to sift through evidence and design which is covered by attorney/client privilege? doesn't make a lot of sense to most people. >> i think what the president's counsel is doing is saying there attorney/client privilege material here and we should be a party to making that claim. the reason you have so many filings is that cohen is such damaged goods that the president is coming in with his own counsel to say that we should be

heard on this issue of whether this is attorney/client privilege. but that magistrate, if he or she is appointed, will first have to determine if michael cohen was an attorney. there's a lot of question about what he was doing. he seemed to relish in mixing his roles and that is poisonous to the confidentiality arguments that will have to be made. >> there are reports that another personal lawyer for president trump, former new york city mayor rudy giuliani, met with special counsel robert mueller on tuesday, reopening negotiations about a presidential interview while cautioning that the president remains resistant. in an interview with the "new york times," giuliani said his goal in the coming days was to find out where mueller stands, particularly as it relates to the credibility of james comey. three people familiar with the talks told the "washington post" that giuliani pressed mueller for clarity on when the probe is expected to end.

in response, mueller reportedly reiterated that he would like a chance to ask trump questions about steps he took during the transition and early months of his administration and, joe, i ask you, knowing trump, is there any reason that trump should do this? he can only hurt himself, in my opinion. >> i don't know. and giuliani, i think, howard, giuliani is just another bud of the president who -- he keeps hiring lawyers who he wants to sit around and smoke cigars with and, giuliani is not going to get an answer for rural about when he'll end his investigation. what's this charade about? >> i think it's a political choice. most high-powered well-known lawyers won't go to work for trump for a variety of reasons. partly because they have conflicts and partly because it's trump and anybody who touches trump gets sullied. >> he lies and won't pay -- >> there's a long history of that in new york before he got to be president.

so i think rudy is a long time friend of trump's and he's doing this -- but it's political. rudy hasn't practiced law for a long time. >> and catty, somebody commented yesterday rudy -- in fact john dowd, former lawyer, said i'm not sure why they would hire rudy and who rudy knows and -- >> he knows lots of people. >> what rudy is doing there. he hasn't tried a case in a long time and he doesn't know a lot of people in the southern district anymore. >> here's rudy. he meets mueller, he then leaks his side of the story of what he said to mueller, mueller doesn't say anything, as has been mueller's pattern the whole way along and the image that comes across from that reporting is there's giuliani going in tough and saying i'm making certain demands of bob mueller, are you acting in good faith? when is this going to be wrapped up? should i put my client there? as if giuliani is the one holding the cards when everybody knows he's not in this particular circumstance. but that is what trump wants to hear. trump wants to hear that there is giuliani acting like a tough

guy in the face of bob mueller and i can push bob mueller around which is so patently not the case. >> and it's interesting, jonathan turley, if you look at the position that giuliani is in and mueller is actually -- they're talking about the possibility of mueller deposing the president of the united states and you look at what cohen is doing and pleading the fifth, seems like their options are getting worse and worse because if you want to prosecute a case for obstruction of justice, you don't really need to interview donald trump. he's laid whatever you want to report to congress, you can probably lay that out without an inter interview you have the bonus of him lying under oath and there's another charge but mueller doesn't need that. it's the same thing we said

about the fifth being pled by michael cohen, they have the documents. him pleading the fifth probably doesn't add a whole lot. >> the interesting aspect about this is ty cobb and john dowd negotiate a sit down based on four categories. i wrote on those categories saying that was a good deal. those are four areas where i think the president has very strong defenses. that's a frontal attack where your armor is the best. it notably didn't include stormy daniels or some of the issues that i think present existential threats to the president. does it increase risk? yes. but to paraphrase voltaire "those that run away often get massacred." do i get the voltaire prize now? >> you win it. >> i can stop. okay. [ laughter ] >> you said it, professor. >> we're fascinated. elizabeth bumiller, let's change topics and go to dr. ronny jackson.

there's been controversy about his nomination to be the secretary of a bureaucracy that overseas nine million veterans. a massive bureaucracy, he's the personal doctor for the president. he was for president obama and for a short time for president bush as well. it looks like according to axios there's reporting he may withdraw his name given everything that is in the background of his nomination. as you look at the way the process started with dr. jackson standing at a podium several months ago and delivering a clean bill of health in sometimes grandiose terms for the president of the united states saying he thinks he could live to 200 if he ate better, said god just made him this way, he's got great genes, all that stuff president trump likes to hear and earned him the nomination to be v.a. secretary. is this just a process that had no process? in other words, no vetting, no interviews that they might have dug up everything in the ig report before they nominated anymore a more conventional administration? >> as we know, there's very little vetting in this white house and i would say that's the

case here. there was plenty of documentation of previous problems in this office and the white house didn't know about it or ignored it. trump liked his performance, feels comfortable with him and he announced he was going to be the v.a. nominee without a lot of consolidation. and look what happened to him. a few months ago he was the white house doctor flying high, he had this great relationship with the president. highly respected from the obama white house, you saw the reports from obama about his performance. and now look. so i think it's an example of what happens when you get into trump's orbit and people don't do so well around the president and i don't see how this is sustainable obviously with these kinds of reports. they say they're going to fight it but the president was notably silent yesterday about his friend ronny jackson and this doesn't look sustainable to me

at all. >> boy, howard, everybody that gets into donald trump's -- i mean everybody that gets into donald trump's orbit is sullied. >> i have a question for elizabeth and that is why do you think obama and axelrod gave good recommendations? this can't have been a pattern that just emerged in the last two years. >> that is an excellent question. a lot of the reports from this investigation have come recently. it's possible they didn't know. these are reports about afterhours behavior. the doctor would be traveling with the president, it wouldn't be something -- a doctor/client relationship, doctor/patient relationship, they wouldn't necessarily have known about that. but you're asking a very good question. >> elizabeth, before you, go we're well-versed with the president's attacks on journalists, calling them everything from fake news to enemy of the people. those criticisms often come in

the form of angry tweets and soundbites directed squarely at the "new york times." now a new documentary series from show time called "the fourth estate" explores the inner workings of the "times" during the first year of trump's presidency. here's part of the trailer. >> the news doesn't tell the truth. they have no sources and i want you all to know that we are fighting the fake news. they are the enemy of the people. >> we just got kicked out of the white house briefing. >> you really have to want the story. i think you either have that or you don't. >> would it be fair to characterize that story as wrong? >> yes. >> we went back to our sources and covered the story. >> you pick on one of us, it means you have to deal with all of us. >> he's the president of the united states who is under federal indictment. >> that is a story.

>> this american carnage stops right here and stops right now. >> wow. that looks cool. elizabeth, i shuddered at your eye roll. if i worked for you i would shudder at the eye roll. >> it makes it look very exciting. [ laughter ] it looks like -- we were joking in the office, it looks like the beginning of "homeland." it makes you very anxious. it doesn't quite feel like that when you're at a bureau all day long. >> i don't know, we spent time there, we found it scintillating. riveting, actually, we loved it. >> it was very exciting. >> it wasn't quite like that. >> it wasn't quite like that but it's one of the -- i think one of the great ironies of the trump presidency. we were just talking about everybody associated with him ends up being sullied, they have a hard time moving on and getting jobs in washington, d.c.

there was one report after another like that but you look at the people he attacks, the "new york times," the "washington post," nbc, cnn. the people that he attacks actually -- you know, this show. we just had our best quarter ever. you guys are doing better than you ever have. the "washington post" doing the same. it seems in the age of trump people he attacks actually do pretty darn well. >> well, i don't know what to say to that other than that we like to say at the "times" that the failing "new york times" is even failing at failing. >> exactly. i love it. and speaking of "homeland" mandy patinkin is going to be on in an hour. >> he is coming. but one of the great quotes, i quote all the time, marty barron with the "washington post" says "we're not going to war, we're

going to work." >> travel ban, turley, go. >> that's what the "new york times" has been doing and everybody else. jonathan turley, let's talk about the travel ban. we've been saying it all along here. of all the president's powers, this one seems to fall about as squarely in the administration's wheel house as any other. it certainly looks like the president's travel ban in its third iteration is going to be upheld by this court, doesn't it? >> it does. i think they probably would have prevailed on the earlier rounds. this is the same threshold issue of the president's inherent authority. you have to give due to the administration on this one. i think the lower courts did deal unfairly with the administration. it's not that i necessarily agree with the underlying policy but case law did favor president trump and the reliance on his tweets, as you and i have talked about in the past, joe, was unprecedented and i think

unsupportable and i think what you saw yesterday with the supreme court is that they're not putting the same emphasis on these tweets. that they think you need to look very carefully at the president's inherent authority and they've been very consistent in the past saying that this type of action is legitimate. >> as we've said for a very long time, especially legitimate when you look at the countries that are part of this travel ban, this travel restriction. they fall in line with the six, seven countries that barack obama's administration chose as the gravest threats to the united states and the biggest sources of concern for the obama administrati administration. >> i think that's right. and what i think is going to come out of this is that as you and i have talked about in the past, he's likely to prevail with at least a 5-4 decision. it will be interesting how the dissent comes out in favor of those lower court decisions but

i think this is clearly going to be a win for him. >> and this case just on the basis of law, mika, should not be a 5-4 decision. >> jonathan turley, elizabeth bumiller, howard dean, thank you all for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," president trump's poll numbers usually hover around 40%. but far more americans approve of how his ambassador to the u.n. is handling her job. >> have you seen nikki haley's approval ratings? >> one person in his orbit. >> a very respectable 63%. appreciate how nikki haley is carrying out her work. really, in the face of so much criticism and rumors. >> could you imagine somebody like that ran in 2020? >> she'd be amazing. >> a uniter, not a divider. >> what a story. that includes 55% of democrats. >> whoa, this story keeps getting better for republicans who want to win. >> universally liked. some people just want to be liked. >> this is unbelievable. >> well, you have to look to

nikki haley to figure out how to get that. we'll dig deep interthat. and in just a while, attorney michael avenatti joins us on set. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. hey allergy muddlers: are you one sneeze away from being voted out of the carpool? try zyrtec® zyrtec® starts working hard at hour one and works twice as hard when you take it again the next day. stick with zyrtec®. muddle no more®. and try children's zyrtec® for consistently powerful relief of your kid's allergies.

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>> dr. jackson's record as a white house physician has been impeccable. in fact, because dr. jackson worked within arm's reach of three presidents, he's received more vetting than most nominees. dr. jackson has had at least four independent background investigations conducted during his time at the white house, including an fbi investigation conducted as part of the standard nomination vetting process. >> that's the white house yesterday afternoon standing by its v.a. nominee joining us now, democratic senator richard blumenthal of connecticut. senator, good morning, good to see you. also with us, white house reporter for the associated

press jonathan lemire. jonathan, let me start with you. your latest reporting on the fate of ronny jackson? >> the white house is preparing for him to withdraw his nomination. the final decision hasn't been made. the president himself won't personally lean on jackson, who he is very fond of reporters saw sarah sanders, raj shah looking almost emotional. jackson himself turned to reporters and said he would talk to us in the next few days about where things stood. he didn't give indications as to where he was going. we're hearing the white house is at least getting their ducks in a row for him to withdraw. >> senator, you sit on veterans affairs. this is a massively consequential decision, as you know better than most who sits at top of the v.a. and it's nine million veteran members, people who count on the health care there. what concerns do you have about dr. ronny jackson and how much credence do you give to the allegations that have been out there so far.

r . >> i give great credence to these allegations. they are consistent, compelling, numerous. they come from men and women in uniform, more than 20 of them. every one of these allegations is corroborated by a second person. some have been confirmed by the media, including, for example, the "washington post." there's nothing partisan or political about the men and women who have bravely come forward with these specific concerns about drunkenness, prescription drug misuse and hostile work environment. there's no realistic path forward. >> joe, have you heard from former obama administration officials saying just the opposite? we have. people that worked in the obama administration can't say enough good things about dr. jackson. are you concerned about the inconsistencies and these two views of this man? >> i am certainly respectful of

those opinions but admiral jackson has the reputation and this concern was expressed specifically that he's the type of manager who kisses up and kicks down. in other words, he curries favor with the people above him. remember that this hostile work environment is something that has affected a group of 50 people in the medical unit. he has to manage a agency of hundreds of thousands of dedicated men and women who work for the v.a. but who are challenged by an agency that suffers from clear managerial problems. it's time for a leader with proven ability and experience in management. admiral jackson is not that person. >> a lot of things going on. we need a score card. by the way, red sox needed that win last night, come from behind victory. >> three losses in a row was enough.

>> mookie does it again. so a good win for us. kimbrel gets the save this time. let's talk about what's going on inside the white house. you need a score card. you have reports from ronny jackson, report he is may be leaving. scott pruitt going to the hill, reports donald trump will be watching how he's handled on capitol hill. sounds like his attention span is waning on pruitt and that fight and then you have these other vacancies, you have to mike pompeo fight, the fight at cia. republicans really are going to spend their remaining months just trying to take care of these vacancies. >> republicans on the hill are frustrated at the idea they have to keep having these confirmation hearings and they've been signaling to the president, stop firing people, we won't have the oxygen to do all this. we raised pruitt's name. he's someone who has managed to stay out of the headlines or the president's eyes far few days but that will change today. there's sense in the white house he'll have a tough day and

there's some division in the west wing whether or not they want to see him succeed even though the president himself is fond of him. a question for the senator, back to ronny jackson for a second, obviously his personal conduct has made headlines but setting that aside do you feel like he's qualified for this position? he's certainly never managed a bureaucracy anywhere near this size and it seems like the white house didn't have any -- not just vetting of his personal conduct but perhaps suggested -- looked at his resume to see whether he was qualified to do this. >> the fact is -- and that's a great question -- his qualifications were pretty thin from the outset in terms of managerial experience for an agency that is the second-largest in the united states government and has a really solemn obligation to our nation's heroes, our veterans who have serious health and employment and skill challenges. the white house bungled this vetting.

it has fumbled the defense, it's a tragic disservice to admiral jackson and an even greater disservice to our veterans. >> david ignatius? >> i want to ask senator blumenthal. you have a vote coming up i think today on the anonymity nation of mike pompeo to be secretary of state. is that your sense? what kind of secretary of state do you think he'll make? he's obviously close to the president. do you see an upside for mike pompeo? >> that's an open question as to how qualified he'll be as secretary of state. his experience is in intelligence and a member of congress where he took $400,000 from the koch brothers. he has a record of being against reproductive rights both here and abroad. he's made statements about the gaye community that are about thet cal to american values.

i am opposed to his nomination because i feel he will reinforce many of president trump's worst instincts but i think he will be approved today. i think the votes are there. >> the bill in the judiciary committee to protect special counsel robert mueller, is it still getting resistance and why? >> that bill as a matter of fact is on our agenda for today. i've been a staunch advocate and supporter and i've helped to draft the latest version who which hopefully will be approved today with a bipartisan majority in the judiciary committee. it is critical. more than ever that we protect the special counsel against possible firing or other political interference to his great credit. chairman grassley has put it on the agenda. we have now a compromise amendment that can bring together additional support on both sides of the aisle and we are creating momentum which is much needed. >> senator richard blumenthal,

thank you so much. david ignatius, we're talking about possible fights on capitol hill. what about the president's nominee for the cia, gina haspel. it's very interesting. a lot of resistance but if you look at administration -- officials from prast administrations, everybody from john kerry over to you name it, brennan and other obama-appointed officials, she has the support of cia directors and state department officials and high-ranking officials on both sides of the aisle. how's that going right now. is that still even in play? >> well, it's certainly in play, gina haspel current deputy director gets high marks from the cia from within the building that there have been a series of testimonials about her that have

been issued, kind of unusual for the cia to put out a publicity blitz. but she is a 30-year veteran of the operations directorate and they line up behind her. they like her a lot. one thing that's become clear is that it's still early to ask people to take the yays and nays on questions involving harsh interrogation, let's just say it, torture, a very painful period in or history ten years ago. we all know how it evolved, the situation now ask members of congress to stand up and endorse somebody who has any links to that period as we're seeing is very difficult. even people who think a lot of gina haspel aren't sure they're comfortable with that vote. >> still ahead, a porn star and former playmate both claim to have had affairs with donald trump, but evangelicals across the country continue to support the president. in fact, they're digging in and mobilizing on behalf of trump ahead of the midterms.

the "new york times" jeremy peter joins us with his latest reporting on that next on "morning joe." let's fly, let's fly away ♪ ♪ just say the words ♪ and we'll beat the birds down to acapulco bay ♪ ♪ it's perfect for a flying honeymoon they say ♪ ♪ come fly with me ♪ let's fly, let's fly away ♪ ♪ come fly with me ♪ let's fly, let's fly away ♪ with expedia, you can book a flight, hotel, car, and activity... ...all in one place. everything you need to go. expedia ayep, and my teeth are yellow.? time for whitestrips. crest glamorous white whitestrips are the only

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national correspondent for the "new york times" magazine, he's misbehaving already, mark leibovich. >> he's the best. >> you and joe, talk, talk, talk. author and journalist sara kensier, his new book is "the view from flyover country. dispatches from the forgotten america." and in washington, "new york times" reporter jeremy peters. his new reporting is "shrugging off trump scandals, evangelicals look to rescue gop." new. >> let's first go to hong kong at our kanye tweet desk with our own willie geist. >> do we have a signal? >> i don't think there's any tweets. i'm just dialing up my twitter machine. where do i begin, there were like a thousand tweets. >> it wasn't enough that the guy -- sorry it wasn't enough that -- we have to go to our tan yay tweet desk. it wasn't enough that the guy was praising donald trump the way he was and saying he was nice at ping-pong, he's

attacking barack obama now. what's with that? >> who does that? >> this is -- >> okay, we've broken the fourth wall. >> 216 likes from kanye "obama was in office for eight years and nothing in chicago changed." not only wearing the maga hat, going after president obama. he's got an album coming out. should i say that again? >> let's politely say kanye's always been a little out there. people should -- if anybody has been reading his twitter feed, no one should be surprised. >> let's get to our guest. jeremy peters, what's up with evangelicals and -- >> they love trump. >> how do they walk this line? >> one of the questions i get covering the right all the time is at what point is the breaking point? when do evangelical christians who say they prize morality, fidelity and integrity break with president trump other the weight of these scandals. and it's private and public life. >> i have to say i don't see one

coming. what is so interesting about this stormy daniels scandal with them, the evangelical community, that is, is they're not saying we don't believe it, it's fake news, they're saying, we do believe it and it doesn't matter. so what we found in our reporting is the largest christian conservative evangelical groups are doubling down, digging in on their support for president trump because they realize that probably the only way he gets -- keeps his majority in congress is if evangelicals turn out and i think this is one more way that the republican party today is about defending donald trump, protecting donald trump. it's about that above all else and one of the evangelical leaders i spoke to captured that really well when i asked her about the stormy daniels situation and she said, you know what? we didn't elect a husband, that's not why we support donald trump. we wanted a bodyguard, somebody who would fight for us. and i thought that was a really

inciteful take. >> it's so interesting because they didn't care that barack obama was a great husband. >> right. >> and they did care about bill clinton. i know, i was there. there were a lot of people that were shocked talking about the example bill clinton was setting for the nation. i guess things have changed now. sara, you weren't surprised by donald trump's victory. >> no. >> first of all, explain why and talk about your book and how it peels back what people think of as the american dream. >> my book is called "the view from flyover country" and it's a collection of essays between 2012 and 2014 that discuss the weakening of institutions in america, the loss of trust. i think those structural conditions set the template for trump. i also have a ph.d. in anthropology where i study authoritarian regimes, especially kleptocracies like uzbekistan where the president

uses his position to enhance personal wealth and where the media was boosting trump for ratings, trying to use that to enhance their own wealth, you end up with a situation that's both bad but predictable. >> so you talk about how -- >> nailed it. >> upward mobility, equality, freedom of speech and access to education all are four trends going in the wrong direction in america and led to donald trump's victory. >> that's been going on for a long time. you've seen opportunity hoarding by elites. you see a pay to play system where people are expected to do unpaid labor, get expensive degrees and they're locked out of the most powerful industries. you see industries like politics or media with people who aren't particularly talented or qualified but have the connections and the network and the wealth in order to get their way in and that leads to a really damaged discourse for the american public. >> it's interesting, the death

of the west. >> you have general goldberg's book. a lot of people are talking about the failure of liberalism with a small "l." >> madeleine albright's book, fascism. >> it seems like one of the great challenges of our time. >> it also underscores donald trump filled a vacuum. we obsess, the media obsesses and i think the culture obsesses rightly about donald trump and what it is about him that makes him so resilient to his base and evangelicals and so forth. what you're seeing is there's been a craving for something like him, a bodyguard as jeremy said. he has seized on culture more than politics in some ways and he's been able to speak to that. >> it's a failure. sara talks about the failures. you can go back, we've done it before.

'99, impeachment. 2000, recount. 2001. you literally can go every year and you can find one institution after another institution after another institution that's failed. >> i think that's true. nonetheless, that doesn't completely explain or certainly excuse his rise. i think when somebody like trump launches his campaign on hatred, when he launches it on targeting mexicans on day one and going on to denigrate these groups, going on to lie, going on to embrace explicitly corrupt policies, people have an obligation to speak out. the media does, the gop does. we still have that obligation today. >> and it goes back to jeremy peters reporting. when you look at -- especially with your expertise but also this book, we understand -- joe and i, we understand on this set how he was elected, why he was elected, even thought he could be elected which people didn't understand but jeremy, evangelicals embracing such an

opposite moral view, i'll put it very carefully in a person is another part of how it starts. you're either going to hold up the society that we live in and stand up for what we believe in or things like this happen. >> i think that's very on point, mika. and with donald trump, remember, this is a guy who has been about transactions his whole life. probably the most important transaction he ever made politically was his bargain with the religious right and that is you set aside your moral qualms about me, my private behavior, my affairs, my coarse language. >> payoffs. >> and i will give you the policy you want. he has done more for evangelical christians and the christian right than reagan, george bush and george w. bush combined. from moving the embassy to jerusalem, to ending transgender protections, to allowing it easier for churches to

participate in politics, religious freedom protections. this is the kind of stuff that you would maybe see one of those items from a traditional republican administration. >> it's not just evangelicals who have sold their soul. >> right. >> and this isn't that complicated. when are the republicans going to finally stand up to trump? it's not that hard. we've always talked about early december, 2015, donald trump comes out with a muslim ban. i said steve schmidt said, a lot of other republicans said we -- nicolle wallace said we can never, ever, ever support somebody that would ban 1.5 billion people from coming to this country because of the god they worship. it's not that hard. paul ryan calls him a racist one day in the summer of 2016 and the next day endorses him. it's not that hard. >> it's not. >> so it's not just that evangelicals are that are

selling out, it's republicans who i think are -- i would love them to explain this five years now from when donald trump is out of washington. >> that will be interesting. i think what is interesting, what we're listening to is people like paul ryan paul ryan resinate in any way, shape or form against the voters were talki talking about. paul ryan is a washington figure. he is a femoral to the conversation we are having right now. donald trump is a force, but the counter force he is coming into, given the level of disenchantment with politics in washington that existed when he started to run. >> sarah, thank you so much. very cool, really good. dispatches from the forgotten america. get it. jeremy peters, thank you as well. we'll read your reporting from "the new york times." >> we'll watch you on showtime. you look like a character out of

"homeland." >> we look frightened to death, don't with? >> with reason. the french president issued a warning about the themes that define the trump presidency. senator jeff flake did the same thing in january. the arizona republican reflects on both speeches, straight ahead on "morning joe." insurance that won't replace

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welcome back to "morning joe." we have breaking news. we have been talking about speculation if ronny jackson would withdrawal his nomination for v.a. secretary. he has done that. he's withdrawal to be the v.a. secretary, but he denies the allegations against him. i did not expect to have to justify my character and integrity. the allegations are false and fabricated. if they have merit, i would not

have been trusted to serve as an important role for three presidents over the past 12 years. but, even in light of that, he says it's not worth the time, it's not worth the pain or putting the country and the president through this. ronny jackson withdrew his name to be v.a. secretary. >> david ignatius, back to ground zero for the largest and most difficult beaurocracies to run in washington, d.c. the trump administration has to go back to the drawing board of firing the last v.a. -- the last guy running the v.a., now jackson. so, what's next? >> well, i hope that the white house will understand that this was really a self-inflicted wound. it's terribly embarrassing and painful for dr. jackson. this never should have happened. if the president wants to be

taken seriously and claims he cares about veterans and the v.a., do this right the next time. he needs help from congress, i think, in terms of discussion, the kinds of people who could do this job well. some of the top doctors in the country, the leaders of some of the nature clinics around america have been talked to over the last couple years about taking this job because it's so important. many of them have stepped back and said i don't want to do it, precisely because they know it is difficult and political. it really is important for the country and here is a chance for donald trump to say, okay, i made a campaign promise, i'm going to deliver on it. we had this misstep and begin a real review of candidates that can fix the veterans agency. >> jonathan? >> another moment where the president is putting personal rappaport over qualifications. he likes ronny jackson. he is surrounding himself with folks he gets along with,

without necessarily -- >> now giuliani. >> of course. giuliani on his legal team. not going through the formal vetting process or looking at actual qualifications. jackson is well thought of among a number of administrations, he denies the allegations. there is no chance he was going to be able to get through this. he is taking face saving move, pulling away. it's not clear whether or not he is going to remain in that position. >> mark, you somehow got a wire on one of the nfl owners and wrote a terrible story. why would you do that? >> i don't know. i think it's disloyalty. being accused of disloyalty. >> you are disloyal. tell us about this candid audio as nfl owners met over protests. what did you find out? >> there was a fairly private meeting last october. >> apparently not. >> controversy.

roger goodell, the commissioner of the nfl brought together ten nfl owners and ten players to talk about what to do, problems, how they can work together and so forth. roger goodell, at the beginning, talked a lot about the importance of them coming together, establishing trust and, also secrecy and confidentiality, this, according to an audio tape obtained by my colleague. you can read all about it. you really get a sense of how the nfl owners are obsessed with what donald will do next, how trump looms over everything and colin kaepernick. >> you get a sense of their grasp that they had a crisis on their hand. it was not going to go away because donald trump was going to tweet on it. they don't have a great answer. >> to this day, they have no idea how to deal with it. i have to say, if the president is reading a story like this,

he's got to be delighted. this club that would not allow him in, this club of billionaires who own the nfl, they are sitting here at a complete loss over the power he wields over them. >> all right. it is exactly the top of the hour on this thursday, april 26th. still with us, we have a columnist and editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. white house reporter for the associated press, john, chief national correspondent, mark and we go to this now. president trump's long-time personal lawyer, michael cohen, says he will exercise his fifth amendment rights against self-incrimination in a civil case brought by porn star, stormy daniels. daniels is suing cohen for defamation suggesting she lied about an affair with the president in 2006, suing trump claiming the nondisclosure agreement arranged by cohen is not valid because the president never signed it.

the white house has repeatedly denied the affair. in cohen's decision to remain silent, he cited the ongoing criminal investigation by the fbi and federal prosecutors in new york. joining the table, michael, the lawyer representing stormy daniels. >> good morning, thanks for having me. >> thanks for coming. cohen pleading the fifth, does it matter? >> it does. it should matter in the criminal case and the american people. this is a stunning development. >> why should it matter? >> can you give us insights why he would be doing this right now? >> i think it's clear because he has a lot to hide and criminal liability over this transaction, the $130,000 payment. there's potential campaign violations here and may be involvement by the president. this is a dramatic development.

we have the right hand attorneys to the president of the united states pleading the fifth, the same attorney that the president directed the american people to about two, three weeks ago to answer questions about this agreement and this payment. i mean, he told the american people, this is the guy that was going to answer the questions and now this is the guy refusing to answer the questions because his answers may incriminate him. this is a big deal. >> how much does this hurt your case? we have been saying all morning, he can remain quiet, that's his constitutional right, but it doesn't stop that the southern district seized everything. they have the evidence. if there's evidence of a transaction between president trump directing that $130,000 payment, it will show up in there. do you believe pleading the fifth hurts you guys? >> not at all. i think the judge in our case is going to fashion remedies to allow him to proceed with his fifth amendment invocation at the same time our case proceeds. i think we may very well get a

deposition of the president in the coming months, certainly by the end of summer. it will increase those odds. >> you released a sketch of someone miss daniels said threatened her in a parking lot. do you have promising leads who that person might be? >> we have a number of promising leads, we received over 3,000 leads. 500 or 600 are credible. i think we are narrowing the field. we are going to be very, very careful before we release the determination of what it might be because of the consequence of us being wrong. we are going to make sure we are right before doing it. >> attorney general jeff sessions faced questions about his role in the michael cohen investigation and whether the white house is weighing a pardon for the president's lawyer and business associate. >> if you discover any connection between this investigation into mr. cohen and the ongoing investigation into allegations of russian interference or anything related to the 2016 election, would you

recuse yourself? >> yes. >> has the if tpresident or any discussed the possibility of pardoning mr. cohen? >> i'm not able to reveal the contents of communications i have with the president of the united states or his top staff. >> all right. >> i'm curious, i mean, shouldn't this have been established by now? this is with mr. sessions and where that is proceeding. i mean, we should know, i think at this point, what the scope of his recusal is, right? shouldn't extend to the personal attorney of the president. >> well, i suppose so, but this does keep expanding out more and more. devin nunes was supposed to be recused from the russian investigation, then he went off on different rabbit trails. in this case, there is a possibility. some would say a likelihood what the southern district of new

york is doing and may end up crossing paths with bob mueller's russian investigation. >> i think you are right. if you look back through history and look at ken star and his role as special prosecutor, ken star was not brought in to potentially investigate an alleged affair between lewinsky and bill clinton. he was looking at white water, spent $20-25 million and came up empty and rotated to the president in the paul jones case and monica lewinsky. ken star had no idea about monica lewinsky and had nothing to do with her when that started. you can see a situation here, very, very similar. >> except for the fact that he, in this case, you almost sense that robert mueller does not want to make the same mistakes ken star made. that's why when he found possible illegal activity, he kicked it to the southern district of new york.

>> i think you are absolutely right. he was conscious of the fact he did not want to face criticism or the charge he was operating outside the bounds of what he was asked to do and had the foresight to do what you suggested. >> you only deal with new york. you have had no dealings with the special prosecutor at all? >> i'm not at liberty to say who we have talked to or not at this point. >> trying to figure out what authorities might unveil in michael cohen's, what they got out of his office and home, as it pertains to your case, focused on the payment to stormy daniel, one payment, whether or not it was campaign finance violation, you said in the past few weeks and months, quou were receiving tips from other women and you were going to take the time and at that moment, you just received eight or a certain number. i think you got a lot more after awhile, but you would take the time to see if they were credible. at this point, you have had the

time. are there other credible tips from other women about potential payments? >> there are. the timing of those are not as clean, i'll use that word, as clean and close of time as the election. >> right. so it may not be a campaign finance problem but cohen fixing things for trump, which may or may not pertain to the law. >> you are right. >> there are other women beyond stormy that are credible that have claimed they have had affairs with donald trump that michael cohen fixed payments for? >> yes. >> and were paid -- >> i feel like this is a cross-examination. mika, you are doing a very good job. >> i'm curious. at this point, it feels like you are focused on whether or not he was abusive toward women, that michael cohen might have participated in being abusive toward women, other people hired to threaten women.

are other people accusing to be threatened the way stormy daniels says she was? >> not that we know of, but i don't want to suggest it didn't happen. >> for other women that may not be in the time zone of campaign finance violations, does the paperwork look similar? >> in one instance, yes. in possibly a second. >> credible? >> i find them to be credible. >> do they appear to be executed by michael cohen? >> i'm not going to answer that. >> anybody else in trump's orbit and organization? >> yes. >> perry mason, are you done with your cross-examination? >> what about keith. >> i would hire you, but i can't afford to. >> this is true. go on. >> counsel, in the time since you took stormy daniel's case, has anyone from the trump camp said michael cohen reached out to you and say let's sit down and talk about this, cut a deal

and stop talking about this? >> absolutely not. you may recall, after we filed the case, we made a settlement offer, we would return the $130,000 and everyone would walk away, my client would tell her story and they rejected that. i will maintain, that will go down in history as one of the dumbest -- >> that's what i don't understand, she's talking anyway. why not get your money back? let her talk. >> they have a lot to hide. at this point, it took on a life of their own. >> or they are afraid of the president with all the others. >> i think that decision to reject that offer will go down in history as one of the dumbest litigation decisions of the last 50 or 100 years. it's going to go side by side with the decision made in the jones v. clinton case.

a lot of people don't know or remember that the clinton white house had a chance to settle the case and they got hung up in the language in an apology jones wanted the president to read. that turned out to be a critical, critical mistake. it led to the deposition of the president and impeachment of the president. >> can i ask one more? >> you can but i want to say it was one of the dumbest legal decisions ever made. we couldn't even speak turkish and we decided to defend ourselves. 15 years in jail. >> 15 hard years. >> i think this is serious because i think there's a lot of cases in which women were taken advantage of, especially younger women or women who may have been felt overmatched by the situation. in terms of the other women who are credible, is there paperwork or communication that involves trump's body guard, keith?

>> no. >> i also want to clean something up. mika asked you whether, i guess mika, this is more to you, whether michael cohen was ever, quote, abusive. i took that you didn't mean physically abusive? >> no. >> but pushing them hard to sign the nda and pressuring them to sign it, threatening them. >> it seems like culture or a way of life that was massage nistic to women. >> let's go to david ignatius. david, you have a question? >> in mika's excellent cross-examination, you said there are other credible cases you have encountered in which women were approached and i want to ask you whether that evidence is relevant to the criminal investigation that is going on in the southern district of new york into michael cohen and

whether you are trying to share that information? >> we are fully cooperating with federal authorities and are going to continue to do so. ultimately, it is for them to determine whether the information or evidence is relevant or not and they will make that determination. we are going to do everything we can to cooperate on a consistent, ongoing basis. >> over the weekend, the president tweeted about sylvester stallone and he might pardon the former boxer. did you read that as he keeps putting the idea of pardons in the atmosphere as a signal to cohen and others? >> he is trying to send a message to cohen and others related to that. jonathan turley who has been on the show and is widely respected had an excellent piece in the hill, an op-ed piece that laid out the presidential pardon possibilities and why that would or would not work in this circumstance. i, frankly, do not think it will allow a parachute, if you will,

for michael cohen. it's likely there will be state charges in the event the government finds out those were the intentions. >> you are a private attorney. how do you process a volume of other women wanting to tell their stories, security, apparatus that goes into incidents that we could be talking about? that's an enormous task. how do you do in? >> i have an entire staff in california that makes me look really, really good so i can come on shows like this and look like i know what i'm talking about. we have the ability to process a lot of information. we have been very, very careful processing the information relating to other women. if, for no other reason other than i want to lend my credibility to a story or to a client where we have a question as to whether they are credible. if they turn out not to be credible, there's considerable spillover, not just on me, but

miss clifford and we cannot run that risk. we have to be very, very careful. >> in terms of credibility. you back up credibility with evidence. you have evidence involving miss clifford and other women which is what? the ndas paperwork, communications, is that correct? >> we have a whole host of evidence. we are not going to lay it out on the show. needless to say, we have been at this six weeks. i like my record. in fact, i think it's spotless, i'm undefeated when it comes to my predictions. i'm going to stick to them. i said michael cohen was going to plead the fifth, he did yesterday. i said he's going to be indicted. there's no question he will be. i said he's going to roll over on the president. there's no question about that when push comes to shove. the president will not serve his term. >> is it a cd or whatever that you tweeted? >> mika, i'm not going answer. >> are there pictures on that? is that going to come to light.

>> mika, i'm not going to answer that. >> badgering the witness. >> sustained. >> quit badgering the witness. >> let me ask you, if you are going to tweet something, a picture of something, is it ever going to be backed up with evidence on there? is it creditable or was that a gimmick? >> i don't engage in gimmicks, you can look at my record and figure that out. two, the tweet is a warning shot. >> about what? >> the president and michael cohen if they came out after the "60 minutes" piece and called my client a liar, there were going to be consequences. have we heard michael cohen say that? no, the warning shot served its purpose. we are going to be diligent and serve in a proper manner. >> one thing that doesn't add up is that figure of $130,000. stormy daniels had massive leverage in that. a couple weeks before the election. we have to shut this down if he wants to become president. you have a self-proclaimed

billionaire and you hold him up for 130 grand. why wouldn't, if it was that moment, boy, he's not going to be president because of this. why wasn't $1 million or $10 million or whatever she wanted to make it go away? that leads people to believe she was threatened, take this figure or else. what is your assessment of that? >> i think your inclination is spot on. >> she was threatened in that moment during the negotiation of the deal? >> physically threatened, again? >> no. >> but threatened by michael cohen? >> correct. >> if you don't sign this, what would happen? >> serious consequences. >> like what? >> i'm not going to get into what was alleged at that time. serious threats. >> in october of 2016, michael cohen threatened stormy daniels directly? >> yes. >> it's very interesting. the president of the united states has just said michael cohen was a business partner of his. >> a businessman. >> businessman and only handled

little of his legal matters. he's actually making, as he often does, the case for the southern district of new york, there's no attorney-client privilege there. >> i have a question. let me ask you. i'm going to ask mika a question. >> please. >> i'm going to turn the tables. >> lordy. go ahead. >> mika, you are familiar with the fact that a week ago, judge wood ordered michael cohen's attorneys to disclose all of his clients for the last three years. >> right. >> and there were three clients listed. three clients listed. do you recall which three? >> hannidy and this guy that handled the fund-raisers. >> no, no, no. mr. trump, the trump organization and sean hannity. mr. brody was not disclosed in

open court as one of his clients. >> what does that mean? >> okay. >> i think at some point we are going to find out, if in fact, the client in connection with the $1.5 million settlement was mr. brody. i'm going to leave it at that. >> huh. >> i like it. >> the president, right now is appearing on a different morning show and said that he just said he has nothing to do with michael cohen's business. that's what he said. this payment suggested is purely cohen, he had nothing to do with it and called it a crazy stormy daniels deal. >> i guess he won the popular vote. i don't know what to say in response to that. i hope he keeps talking. every time he talks, our case gets better and the southern district courts applaud. i hope he keeps going on morning shows. >> what are the consequences. saying he is a businessman, not

his lawyer -- >> that officiates the privilege. that blows apart the attorney-client privilege and saying he had nothing to do with this deal. >> i don't think that's believable. we covered that early on in the case. the whole thing is absurd that cohen went off on his own, negotiated the agreement. >> i know it's absurd. what are the legal consequences or legal downside if that's the case. >> there would be no attorney-client privilege between mr. trump and mr. cohen on a host of issues. >> he is done, again, in this one interview. he helped the southern district of new york -- >> and us. >> and you guys, push aside the attorney-client privilege. >> correct. this is what happens when you have an undisciplined man who finds himself in litigation and doesn't know when to not make statements and you can do that, perhaps in the public but not in

litigation. there's serious consequences. >> are you surprised after watching politicians over the past several years fumble about, not be able to stand toe-to-toe with donald trump, have you been surprised how easy it has been for you to play him, to push him around, make him look stupid, make him fall into one trap of another trap after another trap in ways that will come back to haunt him and michael cohen, legally? >> i haven't been surprised, i have been shocked. here is why. i'm the guy i am. what you see is what you get. this is not an act. it's remarkable to me with all the other politicians involved, you have people that have not been able to do what i have been able to do. i don't get it. when marco rubio made the comment about the small hands, then turned around and two or three days later apologized for it, i thought that was ridiculous he apologized for it. he should never apologize for it. donald trump wouldn't apologize

for it. look, her is the bottom line. politics is a cage match. it is a cage match, like a ufc fight. if you are not prepared to get in the ring and stay and fight to the end, you don't belong in the game. >> so is the law. >> absolutely. >> in terms of your client and the campaign finance violations with the payment to her and your case, another way to add to the credibility of your client's case is to show a pattern of behavior. if you have other credible women with stories that match the pattern, why wouldn't you bring them forward? >> we may, at an appropriate time. >> when would that be? >> i don't know yet. we are going to see how the chess match plays out. >> he is busy. you seem to badger the witness. >> he's taking a long time. >> it's only been six weeks. what's wrong with you. are you in donald trump land, i know everything gets resolved in 13 minutes. >> it's only been one segment.

we may have to wait until the 8:00 hour. >> yes, to get an answer. >> the president of the united states said i have nothing to do with this crazy, stormy daniels situation. you said you have clear evidence that shows the president directed the payment that michael cohen made for $130,000. >> there's no question that we will show, at the end of the day, the president knew about the agreement and knew about the payment, period. this suggestion he didn't know anything about it is ridiculous. >> is there evidence he paid back, paid the money back? >> we don't have direct evidence of that, yet. >> you have evidence, just to be clear that the president says pay stormy daniels 130 grand, you have my blessing. >> i wouldn't say that specific statement. i will say, we will be able to show the president knew about this agreement and knew of the payment. >> when does that come out? you have put so much other information out to the public.

>> look, we are trying a case, folks. this is a lengthy process. >> where are you right now as far as the pleadings go in the case? >> we are in the early stages. michael cohen and mr. trump attempted to stay the case. they don't want us to proceed and be able to take these depositions. >> right. >> we are going to be successful. >> why do you think you will be successful this time and you weren't before. before, the court said it's premature. >> premature on the stay. we have a motion to take the deposition of michael cohen and the deposition of donald trump. >> when will you have hearings? >> first two weeks of may. >> interesting. do you want to hear what the president said? >> why not. >> take a listen. >> how much of your legal work was handled by michael cohen? >> a percentage of the legal work, a tiny, tiny fraction, but

michael would represent me and represent me on some things. he represents me with this crazy stormy daniels deal. he represented me and, you know, from what i see, he did absolutely nothing wrong. there were no campaign funds. >> why is he pleading the fifth? >> because he's got other things. he's got businesses. from what i understand, they are looking at his businesses. i hope he's in great shape. he's got businesses and his lawyers probably told him to do that. i'm not involved and i'm not -- i have been told i'm not involved. >> you brought up a great point. the president just admitted something, he always does this. >> he represented me in the crazy stormy daniels -- >> let's play the admission. >> how much of your legal work was handled by michael cohen? >> a percentage of my overall legal work, a tiny, tiny

fraction. michael would represent me and represent me on some things. he represents me, like with this crazy stormy daniels deal. he represented me and, you know, from what i see, he did absolutely nothing wrong. there were no campaign funds -- >> oh, wow. >> so, the president just said that michael cohen represented him on the stormy daniels case. >> another gift from the heavens in this case. they keep coming. i don't know how i've fallen into such good luck in this case, but i'm going to take it. joe, that's a very dangerous -- >> what is the impact of that? >> hugely damaging admission by the president. according to what he said on air force one, he didn't know about the agreement or about the pachlt. michael cohen went off and did this. mr. trump knew nothing about it. we find out, that is bogus, that is a lion air force one. he admitted and tripped himself up. he admitted that michael cohen represented him in connection

with the stormy daniels situation. >> when the president contradicts himself like that on air force one, how does that affect your case? he is not under oath. yes, it's embarrassing for him and we are pointing it out. what does that mean in terms of what you are trying to do? >> it's a party admission. when you are a party to a lawsuit, doesn't matter if you are under oath or not. when you make a statement to a family member or neighbor or someone you meet on the street, whether it's recorded or not, it's a party admission. it's difficult to prove the party admissions because you don't have video or audio tape. in this case, the president is making the damaging admissions which makes it more powerful. >> if you can queue that back up -- >> rerack the tape. >> this is -- >> so helpful. >> who knew we would be so happy about "fox and friends." >> we are always happy. >> we are always happy. >> wonderful people, we like them all, especially when they

can get the president to admit something as significant as this. go ahead. >> how much of your legal work was handled by michael cohen? >> well, a percentage of my over all legal work, a tiny, tiny fraction. michael would represent me and represent me on some things. he represents me with this crazy stormy daniels deal. he represented me. >> does that put attorney-client privilege back in play in this case? he's saying he did represent me as my attorney. >> it may. they can't figure out whether he is representing him or not. this is a damaging admission. it blows the entire argument we heard for weeks out of the water. i want to send a shoutout to "fox and friends" thank you, appreciate it. >> you have heard this. how does this impact you in court? what do you now do after hearing this? >> we are going to utilize the

statement on "fox and friends" in connection with the case. ultimately, the southern district of new york u.s. attorney's office may also use it. >> somehow get video of this? >> i think it may be. i think the judge in the case has already seen it. donald trump went after his own justice department and the russian probe. let's play a clip of that. >> i will not be involved with the justice department. i will wait until this is over. it's a total -- it's all lies and a horrible thing that's going on, a horrible thing. yet, i have accomplished with all of this going on, more than any president in the first year in our history. tevin enemies and haters admit that. we have accomplished more than any president in the first year, by far, if you look at the regulations and tax cuts and judge gorsuch and so many other things and many other judges. the big thing, the tax cuts, the

regulations. nobody has done what i have done, despite what's going on. i'm very disappointed in my justice department. because of the fact it's going on, you will understand this, i have decided i won't be involved. i may change my mind at some point. what is going on is a disgrace. it's an absolute disgrace. >> david ignatius, the president of the united states seems to be a bit charged up this morning. >> i think he just said another startling thing. if i understood that remark, he was saying that the negotiations that rudy giuliani supposedly was making for presidential interview by robert mueller, the president is not prepared to do. i thought that's what he was saying. i'm not going to talk to mueller about this investigation until it is over. >> he also seemed to be saying that he was not going to, quote, get involved with the justice department. it sounds like at least at this point he was going to allow the

investigation, mueller's investigation to run its course. that may be because of what we have been hearing from the inside, which is donald trump and his staff is far more concerned with what is happening in the southern district of new york than what's happening in washington with robert mueller's investigation. >> it may well be. if you try to put the two things we heard together, it's possible that he is recognizing that michael cohen represented him so as to reestablish this idea that the communications were privileged because the communications are so sensitive. if that's his focus, more than mueller. we are just getting these soundbytes from the president to try to make sense of them. if it's true that negotiations over his testimony to mueller are over, that's interesting. >> maybe there's been question on an entirely different subject or whether in 2013 during the miss universe pageant, mr. trump spent the night in moscow. he said, no, took a shower, but

didn't spend the night. he was asked about it this morning. >> well, comey, what he did was terrible. he leaked classified information to try to get a special counsel. >> he says it wasn't classified, mr. president. he says it wasn't class fied. >> it's totally classified. nobody unclassified them. those memos were about me and they are phony. he didn't write them accurately. for instance, i went to russia for a day or so, a day or two, because i own the miss universe pageant. i went there to watch it because it was near moscow. so i go to russia. everybody knows the planes are there. he said i didn't stay there. of course i stayed there. i stayed there a very short period of time but of course i stayed. the memo says i left immediately. >> mark, everything -- i'm sorry. i don't want to ruin the last

jedi -- >> please ruin it. >> you can say you can get mark hammel looking at the end of the movie and put it here. everything you just said was wrong. everything donald trump just said there was wrong. he claimed he didn't spend the night. it wasn't comey claiming he didn't spend the night. comey said he seemed guilty because he kept saying over and over again, he didn't spend the night. >> there are reports he spent the night. >> yes, there are reports he spent the night. >> maybe he didn't sleep. >> maybe he didn't -- >> all right. >> it's a reality distortion field. we have seen clips from it. i haven't watched the show, i was on here. it's dizzying. i'm trying to process the stormy statement, the justice department statement. it makes me --

>> the president is unhinged. he keeps contradicting himself. he's talking about documents being classified that nobody said were classified at the time that comey let them out, nobody. >> it's wonderful, but can you imagine nobody is there grabbing the phone from him? >> i don't want anyone grabbing the phone from him. i want him to appear every morning on "fox and friends." please, mr. president, keep going on. >> what helps you? >> he now has backtracked and admits michael cohen represented him in connection with stormy daniels. that contradicts what he said and he had knowledge of what happened. i want to go back to something he said. he accomplished, at least in one

respect, something no other president in the history of our nation ever accomplished. that is having their personal attorney of the last 10-12 years plead the fifth amendment. >> david ignatius, if you listen to this crazy interview, donald trump has contradicted himself time and time again. we can talk about the moscow trip. we can talk about the stormy case. how does he -- maybe he's just missing cohen. they seem close and now he's done. donald trump seems unhinged this morning. >> well, he believes we have seen this now for a year, this shoot from the hip, unpredictable, disruptive style, say what you want, he believes it works for him. one of the things that macron talked to this group he met with

last night about is trump's convinced this works and macron described and argued, no, it doesn't. you have to be careful how you use power. you know, he thinks he gets on the phone and that has tremendous benefits for him and we just saw an instance of this this morning, three separate instances which i think are going to cause him trouble or raise questions we'll all be talking and reporting about. i bet he doesn't think that way. >> no. >> back to the legal issues, what we saw here, this interview, this intense revved up president. this is why his lawyers don't want him sitting down with robert mueller's team. they are afraid of what he will say in that room. >> can you imagine? >> he's contradicted himself multiple times in the few segments we have seen this morning. imagine what he would do in a deposition. >> ronny jackson had to withdrawal his nomination and he blamed it on the democrats and

said senator john tester should have a price to pay, was the term he used. joining us from the white house, nbc news white house correspondent, peter alexander. what more can you tell us? >> reporter: you have broken down that conversation pretty well. there was a lot in there. he said he's not going to involve himself with the justice department but said james comey should be prosecuted. specific to ronny jackson, white house officials tell me dr. jackson made his decision last night and the president was informed last night he would be withdrawaling as the nominee for v.a. secretary. it became official this morning, the white house posting a statement. i'll read the highlights. jackson says going into the process, i expected tough questions on how to care for veterans but not to dignify baseless and anonymous attacks on my character. the allegations against me are false and fabricated. if they had merit, i would not been selected to serve in such a

sensitive role or position to three presidents for the past 12 years. because of how washington works, the false allegations have become a distraction for the president and important issue to address how we give the best care to our nation's heroes. we will be hearing from president trump in a couple hours from now as he speaks to the participants in the wounded warrior project soldier ride. some of them veterans in the room. it's likely the president may address it there. he spoke of ronny jackson and the implications of the moment with "fox and friends" take a listen. >> does the obstructionist win when your nominees don't fight back? >> well, i could say yes, i can also say no because doc ronny, we call him doc ronny, he's an admiral, highly respected, a real leader. i watched what john tester, of montana, a state i won by over

20 points, they love me and i love them and i want to tell you, jon tester, i think this is going to cause him a lot of problems in his state. he took a man who was an incredible man, an incredible man, respected by president obama, gave him his highest rating. you saw what president obama said. president bush, he was the doctor to president bush, president obama and the family. he's been my doctor and he runs a fantastic operation. they have many doctors and run a fantastic operation. honestly, i said it to him, he didn't come to me. i said doc, you run a great operation. how do you think you would do at the v.a.? we can talk about experience. the v.a., when you think 13 million people, you could take the head of the biggest hospital corporation of the world and it's peanuts compared to the v.a. so, nobody has experience. it's a big monster.

>> reporter: president trump indicated he did know who he would be selecting next as nominee at the v.a. he wouldn't say who that is just now. perhaps his aides are happy to hear that since the first was viewed as impulsive. mika and joe, we are told he is back at the office today and remains naval physician at the white house. >> all right. >> wow. peter alexander, thank you. let's bring in a member of the judiciary committee, senator jeff flake. we want to get your reaction to something the president just said. take a listen, if you will. >> you look at the corruption at the top of the fbi, it's a disgrace. our justice department, which i try to stay away from, but at some point, i won't. our justice department should be looking at that kind of stuff, not the nonsense of collusion with russia. >> i'm curious, jeff flake,

senator, from what i can tell, from what i have been told by some of president trump's closest closest al lies is a man of integrity, has the respect of everybody at the fbi and here we have the president of the united states talking about how corrupt his fbi is. what are we to make of that when the president denigrates the fbi, the justice department, the men and woman protecting us every day? >> well, i don't know how many times or how many ways we can say it, that is not normal and should not be accepted as normal. it undermines our institutions. i hate to see it continue, but it does. i'm very -- by this language continuing. it's not helpful. >> what can you do? what can the senate and

congress, as as whole do, to protect -- to protect this nation from a president who has so little respect for the rule of law? >> well, for one, i think it's incumbent on members of congress to speak up. we can't be expected and you get tired of responding to every interview and every tweet made, but when the president really goes out of bounds, it's our responsibility to stand-up and say so. he is going out of bounds with regards to the fbi and his criticism of it. this is out of bounds, it really is. the senate judiciary committee is marking up legislation this morning with regard to protecting the special socounse. i'm not convinced it is going to hold up constitutionally. there are good scholars on both sides of theish shy here. i hope what it tells the president is congress will not stand for his intervention, particularly with firing

rosenstein or mueller. >> senator, it's willie geist. busy day on the hill for you all. let me ask you about the nominee to be secretary of state, mike pompeo. have you decided how you will vote? >> i voted to forward the nomination to the floor. i will be voting for him. i do think that we have to have somebody in that position. i think he has done a good job as cia director and i hope he continues as secretary of state. >> scott pruitt, the e.p.a. administrator will be on capitol hill testifying today. do you believe he is fit for that job? >> you know, the president and others will say this is just the democrats have been questions. when you have jim inhofe and other republicans saying yes, we need to hear from scott pruitt, then there is some concern about some of the reports of expenditures. we will wait to see what the committee talks about today. there's concern all the way around. >> do you think he's abused his position? >> well, i can tell you, i look

at some of those expenses and i want to see an explanation, so, i'm anxious to see what the committee does. >> what explanation could there be for some of those, the $45,000 phone booth in his office? >> i'm waiting to hear it. that seems to be out of bounds. i don't know if that's a one off and that's all there is, that may be survivable. it seems that is, you know, just one of many things he will be questioned about today in the committee. >> senator, it's jonathan. you are on the foreign relations committee. the president just in the last few days called kim jong-un the leader of north korea, very honorable. what do you make of that assessment and what do you think of the prospects of the president traveling to meet with kim jong-un in the coming weeks? >> you know, i have been in favor of president's, when president obama, as a candidate announced he would speak to the leaders of cuba and iran, i said

that's good, as long as we do the appropriate prep work before visits like that and meetings like that. they are only on the tail end of a lot of diplomacy. i was glad to see mike pompeo went to see kim jong-un. i hope the preparations are going before. it can be a good meeting, but i tell you, i am worried when the president refers to him as very honorable. i think that otto warm beres parents were disagree. a man who starves his own people is somehow very honorable doesn't comport with the truth. >> senator, you mentioned that it is incumbent on republicans to speak up when the president goes out of bounds as he seems to fairly regularly. yet, again and again, you have been a lonely voice in all of this. many of your colleagues will run

when they are confronted on issues like this. does that frustrate you at all? >> yes, it does. for one thing, you know, just in terms of what this does for the country, we have got to have two strong functioning parties and right now, our party is simply become, it seems, an apoll gist for certain actions of the president when we shouldn't be. on the second level, politically, it's not smart for us, as republicans. i mean, we saw what happened with the midterm election in arizona or sorry, the special election leading up to the midterms. there is no way to spin that than we are in trouble here. there is a large swath of voters who aren't comfortable with where republicans are in terms of the president's actions and his behavior. so, i'm very, very concerned on two levels. first, for the good of the country, we ought to stand-up

more. for the party as well, we need to do so. >> senator jeff flake, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> here on set, michael, thank you as well. >> i enjoyed it. >> i look forward to more. >> even with the cross-examination. >> he can handle it. he just needs to bring the goods. up next, the actor of "homeland" centers on issues we talk about every day, terrorism, espionage and so much more. he joins the table next on "morning joe." y, including those with an abnormal alk or egfr gene who've tried an fda-approved targeted therapy, who wouldn't want a chance for another...? who'd say no to a...? who wouldn't want a chance to live longer. opdivo (nivolumab). over 40,000 patients have been prescribed opdivo immunotherapy. opdivo can cause your immune system to attack normal organs and tissues in your body and affect how they work.

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straight to the parking garage. >> colonel? >> has something happened? >> what we predicted, all the charges in washington have been recalled. >> social security adviser anymore? >> i said recall, not fired. the new president wants to meet with me. they want to continue discussions in washington. >> i would like that. >> this is so embarrassing. >> get rid of him. >> what's that? >> police escort is waiting outside. >> thank you. >> don't thank me yet. >> oh, my gosh. a look at this sunday's season finale of "homeland." can you believe that? >> no, i can't. joining us now, the star of the hit spy drama on show time. >> we are thrilled. >> one of the only shows i watch

on tv and it's incredible. >> this season is so timely. so, i actually went back and started playing mika, you know, the first three or four episodes of this season. stumbleled across the scene where the old kgb agent was talking to, now, uveni and said we just don't do this, we don't, you know, they're deaths on american soil, and that same day, we'd been talking about what the russians had done in britain. once again, homeland lines up with what's going on, on the front pages of the newspapers. >> right. i always say to people, people say where are our writers, and my feeling is no, they just wake up in the morning and listen to your show and other things like it and what the whole world is quite aware of and you don't need to be einstein to figure out which tweet is coming next

or who's going to do what where. we've been living with it. it's right in front of our face. >> it is. >> right in front of our face. great writing this season also where you start with the president and anybody watching would be rooting against a president that sweeps up 200 people, arrests them and halfway through the season, you start thinking, well, maybe i'm cheering for -- i mean, the viewers have been taken on a ride this season in a great way. >> like the president's character. >> right. well, i don't know what to say about that. it's very mercurial, the real world, our world in our fictional homeland is equally mercurial. my concern is we're a fictional state and i always concern for the writers to create a possibility, a moral for us as a nation and people watching all over the globe, a global audience, that can give us some

optimism and hope about how we as citizens of the world, might operate ourselves and what we might expect. >> i'm hoping for an optimistic ending to this season. >> i guarantee you there will be. >> really? >> i don't know if you'll define it as optimistic, but certainly of a moral nature and suggestion, a possibility, that i think is our job in the nonfiction world. >> so who or what -- >> in the fiction world. >> in the fiction world, right. >> who or what do you draw upon for your character saul? >> my goodness. i guess i draw upon my own individual moral and ethical nature, which i feel has become vapid in this current administration and globally at large to some degree. i do a tremendous amount of work with the international rescue committee and work to try to bring attention to the

possibilities and options for refugees that are caught in limbo. and so i just came back from 12 days in uganda where they are building welcome, not walls. i welcomed the resiliency of these extraordinary people, both ugandas who give land to refugees. they were in their own conflict a few years ago and they knocked on the south sudanese door and they were welcome. my grandfather in yiddish used to have an expression. [ speaking foreign language ] which means the wheel is always turning. if you're on top, don't kid yourself, you're going to be on the bottom one day. >> oh, yes. >> if you're concerned about anything going on in the world, the real world, not the fictional world, you have the most power of anyone, not a news person or person on the television or the richest person of the world. you have what's called a vote and you can go and exercise that vote. if you don't know people that are running for office that

match your moral ethical state and nature, figure out who they are, find friends who know them, go support them and get them into situations that can encourage our government and governments all over the world to stop spreading hatred and fear and spread welcome and inclusiveness. one of the things that infuriates me with this ban and the supreme court at this moment right now is how the political system gins up the fear of giz mow to tell you who you need to be afraid of. you vote for me and i'll keep you safe. the fact of the matter is, i don't like spitting out thousands of facts but some of them are incredibly important which is in terms of the vetting process and i've gotten many a ph.d. course with the contacts of the intelligence committee because of the show. since 1970, not a single refugee has committed a single terrorist act in the united states. there are nine systems in the u.n. you have to go through

first around the world before you even get into the two-year process for vetting. the process is so vigorous, the united states is known as the gold standard of vetting. absolutely it can be improved but we have not had a single terrorist incident in this country. they are the safest citizens in this country. and everyone in this studio, every child, grandchild, watching at home, around -- around our country wouldn't be here without the welcoming nature of our ancestors in this government. >> yes, my parents. >> and so i beg people to pay attention to the history of our ancestor's attitudes in this country and find leaders that embrace our moral ethical nature. >> you're right, it was already difficult before this ban was put in place. i think there's a lot of young people getting in the process this year. that energy is there as a reaction to what you're talking about. >> thank god. >> on the show, the clock and dagger of the cia is fun but to me the heart of the show is you and carrie and you and claire dane, the two of you together.

the tension, the sore of father/daughter relationship that's there. the tough love over the show. what's it been like over these years to act across from claire danes in that role? >> it's extraordinary. she's one of the most gifted actresses i've ever known. i would say as an individual, like my own children, she becomes my teacher, she becomes my parent. simple case, i forget what season it was, but there was a moment at the very end of the season where the camera was moving in very slow and tight on her face and what had to happen on her face was crucial to our whole story line and she was right on the money and hit it but at the same time in the background, a truck drove by or someone's cell phone on the crew went off so it blew the take. and her grace and kindness was extraordinary because instead of making anyone feel bad, she said, could everybody please just simply check your phones and lock up the background and we did another take.

was it as good, on the money as the one that got messed up? no, but she didn't make a big deal out of it. >> disciplined. >> a lesser person, like myself at a younger age, might have been -- >> might have exploded. >> yes, ma'am. >> let's all raise our hands. >> david ignatius. >> david's part of our spy cam. >> i know, david, you and i, in washington about three weeks ago were going on and on about how great this season was. has not disappointed. >> i'm a stone-cold "homeland" fan. mandy, i just have to ask you, you have inhabited this character of saul berrenson so totally and believably, i wonder if you hear from cia officers they feel a little more saul as they watch you on tv and do their real-life jobs? >> well, i've become friends with a number of people in the absolute highest position, in the intelligence agency. my wife and i have dinner with them and their wives, breakfast,

go on hikes. they have touched my life deeply. and i think what i'm affected by is their own internal war in terms of their moral ethical nature and upbringing and marrying that to security concerns in our country and security mistakes that our country has made in the past and places like guatemala and iran that never stopped coming back to haunt us and taking responsibility for those as an institution. but they have guided me and i guess also it's their calm nature, the way they listen and if you ever told me that i would be glad and my wife and i would be glad, two lefties from long ago, that were sitting with generals and heads of cia, and thank god they're in that position, in an administration that gives us adgita at this

moment, i would have said you're crazy, but thank god i know some of these people. >> i've been a fan of yours for a very long time. but in college, i just picked up beatles and rolling stones but i picked up the evita original soundtrack. i listened to it for 20 years without knowing you were my favorite character on there. >> oh. >> it was unbelievable. when i found out it made me more excited. i can't wait to hear what's going to happen with diary. tell us about diary. >> i'm very excited. i haven't put out a new album in 16 years. i just made this one in over nine days at christmastime with a new collaborator. i call it diary because every time we have a number of songs, whether 5, 10 or whatever together, we're going to put it out an addition to a diary. this is diary january 27, 2018. we're working on 10 more. this is what i love to do more than anything in the world. it's both meeting with refugees

and singing that reconnect me to being alive. >> really dove tails beautifully with your work with the international rescue committee. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> the final season finale of "homeland" airs this sunday night on show time. we'll be watching. >> congratulations. i hear something you have coming up. >> that's correct. >> mozel tof. >> look at this, we're engaged. >> did i just break a television rule? >> no, don't do it. >> my wife wouldn't even let me call her honey for a good two years. she says it's too conventional. >> my child graduates from college and i speak of nothing until that happens. >> redacted. >> mandy patinkin, t