that no other president has done. in a way we treat it as lunatic ravings of a deranged man and not something he will do. i don't think we know that. >> thank to ashley, matt, mike, that does it for our hour. i'm nicolle wallace, "mtp daily" starts right now. >> sorry, i was distracted because howard feynman was bragging about the fact i'm going to be in the penguins box tonight for caps sbsh penguins. >> i think there are people watching baseball games in our building instead of watching us. it's the season. >> nicole. some of us need a break from the special master every once in a while. go see the special master and they will let you know. thank you. >> have a good show. >> if it's thursday, the president phones it in. literally. tonight, president trump sound off on the legal clouds darkening over the white house. >> it is a fix. okay? it is a witch-hunt. plus, a harsh climate on

hill. epa chief scott pruitt faces the heat. >> you are actions are an embarrassment to president trump. and later the president's symphony, on the fix. -- fifth of the. >> fifth amendment, fifth amendme amendment. fifth amendment. >> this is "mtp daily," and it starts right now. good evening i'm chuck todd, your special master here in washington. welcome to "mtp daily" d." we begin with wild developments involving a pair of criminal investigations embroiling this president this. in russia investigation the president want on a tirade today lashed out at his own justice department and fbi. he attacked the special counsel. he called james comey a criminal and threatened to intervene unless the justice department

turned its attention away are the russia probe. and the president both undermined part of cohen's case and potentially. canning a damning fact in it. namely that cohen was working for him when that $130,000 hush money was paid to adult film actress stormy daniels during the campaign. you might call these developments unbelievable. but seeing is believing -- in this case, hearing is believing. here's the president, laing out at pretty much everyone involved in the russia probe during a phone interview with fox and friend. >> it is a all lies, and it is a horrible thing that's going on. a horrible i think this. we have a phony deal going on. and it is a cloud over my head. everyone knows it's a fix, okay? witch hunt. if you take look, they are so conflicted. the people that are doing the investigation, the top people in the fbi, headed by comey, were crooked. comey is a liker and he's a liar. he is guilty of crimes. our justice department should be looking at that kind of stuff.

not the non-sense of collusion with russia. there is no collusion with me and russia. and everyone knows it. >> even the fox and friend folks were trying to wrap him up there. in that same interview here's what the president said when asked about the investigation into his personal lawyer. >> mr. president how much of your legal work was handled by michael cohen. >> as percentage of my overall legal work a tiny little fraction. but michael would represent me and represent season me on some thing. he represents me like with this crazy stormy daniels deal. he represented me -- >> oops. earlier this.mo aboard air force one mr. trump denied knowing anything about the hush money payment that cohen facilitated but his comments today make you wonder, how could he not know what the lawyer he had representing him was doing. the president also told us to ask michael cohen about the payment. but cohen is pleading the fifth in a civil lawsuit in california

that involves that payment. mannly of course to protect him from criminal liability in new york where he appeared in court today as federal prosecutors probe his business dealings and the hush money payment. i'm joined by tonight's panel. before they weigh in we are going to kick thing off with sanny is he valls who was at the courthouse today for the michael cohen case. he's going to clear up a couple of thing. danny, let me start with special master other than the phrase and the name can get quickly abused by our friend at the new york post, but explain that the special master being named today become a month earlier than we thought it would happen. what does that mean? why is that important? what does that mean for the time line of the investigation? >> the special master represents a middle ground, a compromise between the parties. recall that cohen and trump had asked for their own lawyers

their own team to review these documents for privilege and then give them back to the government. not likely to happen given that the very reason they got a search warrant was because they probably didn't trust cohen and trump to review these documents. on the other hand, the government wanted their filter team, their own attorneys to review the documents for privilege. so in a sense, the judge found middle ground in appointing a special master who is a neutral third party. you could call this a victory for cohen and trump because the default position is to allow the government's iffer team the review and take that first pass at documents. >> i go to how long before the federal government gets its hand on the documents that the special master says it can look at? >> well, at this point the government says they are moving along. they are making a lot offing pro. they expect that they have -- a lot of progress. they expect they have giga bytes

of data. a bankers box of documents that they are going to provide. it is a rolling provision of documents. >> the minute they approve they debt immediately handed to the feds? >> the exact -- no, not cohen. i'm talking about the federal government who seized the documents. >> what i'm saying is the minute the special master approves a document, you say it's rolling, immediately that document toes. its a not like they have to do the entire review first. >> the government seizing the documents will provide it to the special master. he will review each and every document. it may take a significant period of time given there are at least thousands of documents out there. >> i want to ask you about an interesting development with the president. he witness to great lengths today to insist that cohen is primarily a businessman, not a lawyer. take a listen and let me ask you about that development on other

side. >> michael is in business -- easy really a businessman. a fairly big business as i know it. i don't know his business but this doesn't have to do with me. michael is a businessman. he's got a business. he also practices law i would say probably the big thing is his business is they are looking into something having to do with his business. itch nothing to do with his business. i can tell you, he's got other things. he has businesses. from what i understand they are looking at his businesses. and i hope he's in great shape but he's got businesses. >> we did not make that up. we didn't add like repeat phrase of him saying -- that is how that went down today. obviously it's pretty important to the president that, one, he make it clear he doesn't know much about cohen's businesses. but how about the fact that he claimed he was more of a businessman than a lawyer? doesn't that undermine cohen's case on attorney/client privilege. >> people today focused on trump's words that cohen handled

as tiny percentage of trump's legal services. but also, maybe even more important is trump's assertion that michael cohen most will he doesn't practice law but that he's a businessman primarily, attorney/client privilege does not attach to just casual conversations between an attorney and a client. it doesn't necessarily attach the business advice. it has to be created. it has to attach under very specific circumstances. and if the there was not a legal advice or services provided by cohen and instead business advice then there may be no privilege. so trump is undermining his own claim of privilege every time he calls cohen a businessman. >> danny is he valls thank you for giving us your legal expertise. now i'm going to turn it over to the panel and they are going to have some political fodder with it. ram herb, why did the president want to go on today? what did he have to say?

what was it? the more you look at the transcript, the more you listen to what he said i think his number one goal today was to make that point about michael cohen that he was looking to create distance today with michael cohen. did he do it? >> well i think you would have to say that he kind of undermined the legal case of michael cohen the businessman/lawyer. >> right. >> but at the same time he also undermined his own previous insistence he didn't know anything about the stormy daniels payment. i don't know that i agree there was a strategic purpose here. >> i know. i know, trying to assume there is strategy -- >> i think he feels persecuted. >> okay. >> and i think he just wanted to express that feeling. i think he did that extremely effectively. >> felt like campaign trump was back. that was un -- that was the guy -- everybody did phoners with in '15 and '16. >> that was campaign trump extra. that was extra stuff. he went. >> oh, yeah. >> yeah. he mean the clip that you played there where he says the same phrase over and over and over

again, he did that a couple of times, on a couple of different subjects in and interview and he got more and more spun up the longer he was on the phone. >> which is why they were trying to get him off the air. >> they ened the interview. have you ever ended an interview yew with the president. i think you are done now. i think it was kind of amazing. >> i think part of it was in fact feeling persecuted and wanting to talk to the audience that he thought was the most congenial, the fox audience, the fox and friends awed whence. >> that morning -- >> that morning audience. from that point of view yes he had that political purpose. i have been cover presidents for a long time. i don't think i have ever seen, in terms of prosecutions and law, and investigations, more self-damage done by a president in one half hour. as you said, he confirmed the thesis of the stormy daniels civil lawsuit.

>> yeah. >> which means that donald trump is almost certainly going to have to give a deposition in that civil suit. >> is they are in the going to postpone it until after his presidency. >> not going to postpone it. secondly, out of the investigation out of new york by saying that the guy was basically not my lawyer, that means it is an open field of fire for the prosecutors there. then, to turn to the investigation by mueller, for him to say, you know, i will deal with the justice department at some point. he didn't just say -- there was one phrase where he didn't say it conditionally, he said i will get to the justice department. >> a threat. >> which is waving a red flag on the obstruction end of things in bold way. and then finally his saying -- he said this of about with, but i noticed it today. he said there was no collusion with me. and on the collusion end of things. >> interesting, with me. >> with me. >> yeah. >> that means that manufacture of and cohen who are going to be squeezed -- now cohen going to

be really squeezed in new york. he created a world of hurt in exchange for a half hour of free psychotherapy on fox and friends. >> it's also i think a way to bypass some of trump's advisors. nearly any political adviser to a figure who is involved in a scandal. >> or a lawyer. >> that's right. the political people are going to tell you don't go out and look like they are getting to you, like there is something to this and they are freaking out of the the lawyers are going to say don't talk about this at all because anything you saw could become a problem for us. one thing we know about trump he dup like that kind of advice. he wants to express him. >> why is why he can go on his cell phone and go on a cable news shoe atcal in the morning of everything about the interviews suggests that it was something that he wanted to do because he wanted that release. i just wanted to make one quick point on the justice department thing. i think that may be the most significant thing that trump

said today. he is giving a specific warning about something he says he is going to come back to. he is going to let it did for now, but he said, i will deal with the justice deputy. >> i would argue he picked a bad day to do that. >> right. >> because you had the senate judiciary committee debating -- 14-7 vote moved the mueller proek broke bill out of committee. 14-7 -- >> the timing could not have been worse. >> listen to orrin hatch and lindsay graham. >> firing mueller would cause a firestorm and bring the administration's agenda to a halt. it could even result in impeach men. >> you can't fire mueller. you can fire rosenstein. >> are you observe with that? >> no. mr. rosenstein is doing his job. i think if he fired mr. rosenstein without a good cause it would be seen as trying the get at mueller and blow the whole place out. >> the justice department warning howard, he picked a bad day to do this.

>> totally. >> he probably guaranteed that -- it might not have been 14-7. >> they might have gotten extra republican votes on the committee. including the chairman, grassly, which i think is significant.because chuck grassley, like all judiciary committee chairs in these kind of vettive situations are very careful. they want to play a quasi judicial no pun intended roll there. grassley was on record. i think it puts mcconnell in a difficult position. he has already said i'm not bringing that up for a vote. i think there is going to be pressure on him to do it. >> kong republicans have been pleading with the president for months, do not take this step. but i do think there is sort of a red flag in front of a bull kind of aspect to this. i was watching senator lindsay graham saying you can't fire bob mueller. if i'm trump and watching that i'm thinking wanna bet? that's the reaction the president will be. >> my curiosity, here's the way

to get mcconnell to move that to the floor. do republicans need a cover vote for the fall? an in case of emergency cover vote for the fall. if it all goes really south, if what some of us think is going to happen this summer does happen they might need a cover vote. >> i think we might be starting to see the beginnings of that art. >> right this i don't think they think they need one yet. but yeah, give this a month. because i think you are right. i think whenever time donald trump sees lindsey graham being interviewed in the halls at the capitol saying don't do it, you would be crazy to do it, it would be the beginning of the end of our presidency, which he said at one point, i think that's exactly the kind of thin that trump hears and says i will be the judge of that. >> i know for a fact when he was pondering comey's firing people told him you would be crazy to do that. and his response would be oh, i can do it. well, we know you can. doesn't mean you should. all right guys.

stick with us. coming up, one of the president's cabinet picks is out. and a current cabinet member, is he next to go? or can brute get through it. don't miss msnbc this weekend as we go in depth on president trump's fixer. what does michael cohen know, and just how loyal is he to the president? watch headliners this sunday at 9:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. hey, want the fastest internet?

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alright, i brought in high protein to help get us moving. ...and help you feel more strength and energy in just two weeks! i'll take that. -yeeeeeah! ensure high protein. with 16 grams of protein and 4 grams of sugar. ensure. always be you. welcome back. welcome to another round of cabinet chaos in the administration. jackson withdrew his nomination. epa scott pruitt spent the day on capitol hill facing questions

from lawmakers about his alleged ethics issues and lavish spending. >> yes or no do you have any remorse? >> i think there are changes i made already, the change from first class to coach travel. that's a change i have made. >> are you going to reimburse. >> the travel office and security determine where i sit on a plane. and all trips will be for epa trips. >> i'm not a if. that's a lousy answer from someone that has a high position in the federal government. >> whether it was enormous travel expenses, the $43,000 sound proof phone booth for his office or the huge raises for two of his long time aides, pruitt's go to response was don't blame me. >> i was not involved in the approval of the $43,000. if i had known about it congressman, i would have refused it. i was not aware of the amount. i was not aware of that outside contract. i was not aware of one of those individuals even seeking a pay

raise. >> joining me now, the pennsylvania republican congressman ryan costello who questioned pruitt today. congressman, welcome back to the show. >> hey chuck. >> so, i picked out those two excerpts because i want to ask a larger question here. do you think the epa administrator is -- to go to that question that congresswoman issue asked, is he remorseful for what he did or remorseful that he has gotten caught? >> i wouldn't use the word remorseful at all. i don't think he addressed the spending questions. when you have someone like senator inhofe saying he would like to have the administrator pruitt appear before the cabinet i think his spending issues have to the been resolved. >> you were direct with him today. i want to play the clip of it and ask you a question on other side. >> i believe you have demonstrated -- you have not

demonstrated the requisite degree of good judgment required of an appointed executive branch official on some of these spending items. is that a fireable offense as far as you are concerned? do you think that the -- his, in your words, not demonstrating the requisite degree of good judgment on those items -- does that -- that ground for dismissal or resignation? >> i did try to be documentic with it but i do think it is a serious issue that he hasn't answered the question to. i want to see his answers to. so of the questions at the appropriations committee this afternoon. as you may have reported he is appearing before two committee today in the house i want the see him appear before the senate as well. the questions haven't been answered. and some of the spending that is occurred i don't think is appropriate. and i don't think that he has -- he's either blamed it on other people or he's not adequately addressed it. i also think that there is some

legitimate questions about those who raised issues in the i.g.'s office or others in the deputy how have been reassigned or demoted. the issue has not resolved itself, to be sure. i have not called for resignation at the moment but it is something i look at and i do ask myself that question. i haven't landed there yet. >> for what it's worth you were a outlier among fellow republicans today in that hearing. why is that? >> look, i'm going -- let me just turn the page. i am a republican. i think -- i disagree with. so of the things he has done. i don't think we should have rolled back vehicle emission standards. i take issue with the hemming and hawing whether we should regulate carbon dioxide. i believe we should. i think human activity is the leading cause of climate change. having said that, if you asked any republican four years ago to look at an obama eraa agency and rail against it epa would be at the top of the list so he has done some things that a lot of

republicans feel are very, very good and a of the how of the republicans wanted to high height some regulatory relief measures he has instituted. and that's their right to do that. i don't take issue with that. at the same point in time i think there were some democrats who spent too much time railing and not probing for acuity of some answer there is. >> you are getting at what i think the credibility problem with congress right now. essentially it feels as if people only get outraged when somebody from the opposite party commits ethics violations. >> i think there is some truth to that. >> to me, scott pruitt has been a classic example here. why -- why sit that -- are we that polarized. are you that freerful if you at all criticize a member of your own party the president is going lash out at you? what is the fear factor? >> let me say this. i will give you an example. i think that a lot of republican

members look at the policies. waters of the u.s., custom the epa is actively involved in, i think the obama administration went way too far. a lot of members look at this and say he is doing the right thing policiwise. and i think they are waiting for better answers or at least they want to find an answer that's satisfactory. but again i don't think he is in the clear yet i don't think he has abdicated or absolved himself of some of the spending that has happened. so i think there is still some senators who taking issue with things here. so, again, your point is well taken but he is not in the clear yet. >> i want to ask you about another double standard. it seems to be with the president. tom price, he was fired. david shulkin, he was fired. essential has for bad spending, irresponsible spending habits. it looks like both of them pale in comparison to the number of issues with scott pruitt. there's where it does -- it's

not clear what the ethical lines are in this administration. >> i agree. >> some people cross them and you get fired and some people cross them and you don't. >> so you know as well as i do that the white house has not leaned in to defend the administrator for these hearings. so i think the jury is still out in terms of what the white house will or won't do. right? i think reports that the president -- >> on sunday, for what it's worth, mark short, you know him well, chief congressional guy is on on sunday he said the me on meet the press that the president stands by scott truth and thinking he is doing a good job. i don't want to speak for the president. but i think the president reportedly has been very pleased with the fact that he has been very aggressive in rolling back some things. you can like what someone is doing substantively, but at a certain point in time in our oversight capacity we have to look at the ethics of the situation. and, look, if a democrat had done this, i think you probably would have -- you probably would have seen some shifts today in

terms of who was asking what questions or saying what things. >> sadly, you are absolutely right. i think a lot of people watching today would say that's what we saw the last six to eight years. congressman costello, now that you are running fnot running fo re-election you speak more truth to power. >> i think i am getting booked more. >> thank you for coming on and sharing your views. i appreciate it. up ahead, frump is his sixth sense about pleading the fifth.

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on the i'm obsessed with president trump's obsession with the fifth amendment to the constitution. now, the amendment says in part that no person, quote, shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself. this is the classic protection against self-incrimination of it's also an important protection. but in popular culture, pleading the fifth has often been equated with he guilt, which brus us to president trump's lawyer, michael cohen, who decided to plead the fifth in the stormy daniels lawsuit, which brings us further to all of the things president trump has said about what it means to plead the fifth. >> when you have your staff taking the fifth amendment, taking the fifth, so they are

not prosecuted i think it's disgraceful. if you are not guilty of a crime, what do you need immunity for. pleading the faemd. pleading the faemd. taking the faemd. fifth amendment, fifth amendment, fifth amendment, fifth amendment, fifth amendment. horrible. you see the mob takes the fifth. if you are innocence, why are you taking the fifth amendment? have you ever seen anything so corrupt in your life? have you ever seen a greater embarrassment to our country? fifth amendment. >> do i think president trump revealed his rel feelings about what it means to invoke the fifth amendment's protection against self-incrimination? i plead the fifth. the market cl. it's true. so all... evening long. ooh, so close. yes, but also all... night through its entirety. come on, all... the time from sunset to sunrise. right. but you can trade...

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i'm hampton pearson with a cnbc market wrap. sprang day for the markets across the board testimony dow surging 238 points. the s&p gaining 27. the nasdaq jumping by 114

points. facebook shares jumped nearly 10%. the company posted big earnings yesterday calling concerns about the company's ability to maintain users in the aftermath of the cambridge analytic scandal. and amazon reported blockbuster earnings after the bell. the stock up over 6% in after-hours trading. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "mtp daily." it's draft day. the term political football took on a whole new meaning last season when president trump take on the nfl and the players who were kneeling during the national anthem as a way the protest police brutality and the treatment of minorities in this country. mr. trump really let loose at a rally for alabama senator luther strange who is now a former senator. maybe it was because he wasn't thrilled to be talking up a candidate who was taking a beating this the polls or because he thought it would please the crowd or because he just says whatever he wants

whenever he wants, but president trump hammered the nfl that night. >> wouldn't you love to see one of these nfl owners, when somebody disrespects our flag, to say get that son of a bitch off the faeld right now? out. he's fired. it's fired! >> like a successful arsonist he lit the fire, walked away and a monday later the daniel as being dealt with by nfl players and executives. they got together for a rare join meeting. the "new york times" obtained audio of that meeting. joining me now, the chief national correspondent for the magazine, mark leeb vich. welcome back. >> chuck, good to be here. >> to think that it was lawsuitser strange's unpopularity that somehow motivated the president to reignite a fire that sort of blue up in the face -- what is interesting about this meeting

it was meant to sort of rip the band-aid off between players and owners. what did it turn into? >> look, this happened within weeks of president trump sort of belly flopping into this contained pool of player protests and sending ripples in all directions. roger goodell the commissioner of the nfl called together a group of ten owners, ten outspoken players and they wanted to talk about their way forward talk about how to focus on positive things, make contributions to the community and so forth. and what was striking in listening to an audio tape of it after commissioner goodell said this should remain confidential was the degree to which two elephants in the room kept coming up. one, president trump. there was this group of billionaire owners, many of whom donated to president trump were just obsessed with how do we stop him? >> afraid of him. >> afraid. >> let me put one quote up to underscore this issue. here's robert kraft.

new england patriots. eats dinner with him at mar-a-lago. the problem is we have a president who will use the kneeling as fodder for. lurie, we have got to be careful not to be baited by trump or whoever else. we have to be careful. >> the co-owner of the buff ho bills said i don't know what he's going to do next. how do estop -- we need a plan, a band ate for this this. if trump reads this story, he would be thrilled to though this club that wouldn't have him as a member is talking about him. and a representative for the players say you can talk approximate how you are going to

-- talk about how you are going to help the community but how come colin kaepernick isn't working? there was no response. >> i would have gotten the sense that one of the commissioners said i know an own hear the will handle this. i think a of the of us assumed it would be the ravens owner that he had, that that commune would be more open to having kaepernick on that team. a strong commissioner would have essentially ordered an owner to sign capper knick and shut this down. does goodell try that and he doesn't have that sway. >> he doesn't have that sway. he would say these are 32 individually run private businesses. and even the owners in many cases don't have the sway. i mean they give a lot of our power, all their power as far as football personnel to their coaches and general managers. i think in this case -- you know, there aren't -- colin

kaepernick couldn't play for more than a handful of nfl teams because of the political climate of the team n the market. >> the market. >> the seahawks have shown interest. >> i was going to say, seattle, baltimore. >> yes, he had discussions with both. >> seattle were going to have him in for a tryout. and there was a conversation, are you going the kneel? >> both the seahawks and the ravens flirted with the idea of putting kaepernick. backed away. and both signed african-american quarterbacks that basically weren't abe to get a job. less qualified than kaepernick. griffin, and steven morris. i know him, university of miami guy. loved him. >> they did it to please you, chuck. >> it's obvious that kaepernick has been blackballed. they have to fix this. >> it is. but they would say, and i think this is a defensible position,

that this is a backup quarterback. this is a quarterback that we believe has declining skills. it's unclear how badly he wants to play. it's unclear what kind of shape he's in. and of course they don't know that because they are not bringing him in for tryouts. however, is it worth all the baggage he would bring to have a backup quarterback do this. >> is this undoable because the owners are out of touch in the nfl? the nba's owners are all a generation younger. >> if you listen to the owners on this tape. but there are people that you are listening to, and i won't make names because people can make their own determinations who are not the kind of people you want making addition os tn cultural directions -- >> let's say they are culturally uninformed. >> it's not just generational. dan rooney, the owner of the steelers who passed away. he was president obama's ambassador to ireland. life long republican.

an icon in the community. had respect from everyone. he is someone in a position who could have done something. >> this is going to double up again in the season isn't it until they sign kaepernick? >> until they sign kaepernick and there is next generation of kaepernicks. eric reed, he doesn't have a team. he is a free agent. he had one fry out for the bengals, mike brown, they conservative said you are not going to kneel, right? he didn't commit and he hasn't been signed yet. there will be others. >> football season begins in the fall. 2018 is a campaign year. nfl good look. >> my book is coming up, political football -- that's not the name of it. >> you have a book come out -- >> let's do the mock draft now. >> after the break. coming up, another thing president trump pointed out today that people don't realize. so draw the line. roundup for lawns is formulated to kill lawn weeds to the root

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deadly mine accident is now fading a bit. republicans have been spending money trying to make that happen. they feared the blankenship rice. tennessee, the democrats have a well-known candidate in brentisson. versus marcia blackburn. 43%. never run statewide. and nevada, two polls have different results but tell the same sorry. rosen ahead of heller 50-44. but a democratic poll shows heller ahead 40-39. either way you have got an incumbent sitting in the mid to low 40s in both polls. that's not good news for the rs there. we will watch all of those races closely when it comes to control the senate. and the primaries matter a lot. especially in west virginia. we will be right back with "the lid." whoooo.

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time now for "the lid." panel is back. ram herb and howard. our friend at pugh did a study of what should be the ideal of the american democracy and what's the reality. should rights and freedoms -- should the united states be a place where rights and freedoms are respected. very important to the united states. 84%. actually describes the united states, 47%. on the issue of politicians facing serious consequence force misconduct. 83% said it should be very important for the u.s. only 30% believe it actually describes the u.s. and then confidence in the political wisdom of americans. this is not so much. 1997, you had nearly two third of the country feeling as if they trusted each other on their votes. now it's down to 56%. 35% up to 42%, not much. maybe that has to do with the current situation. but howard it did paint a picture of what the country wants america to be politically

and it's sort of on its rules it's sort of the game of how politics is practices, not left or right and where we are. radially different places. >> let me be optimistic and perhaps shows that people still care. >> no, you're right. >> they want the high standards, they really do. and i think that poll reflects the attitude of the american people and our political landscape for the last ten years. our faith in government comes in and out, but after world war ii, it was an an all-time high. through watergate, it was an all-time high. it's been in a slow descent ever since. and something's gotta turn it around. i travel the country a lot, chuck. i sense that people really do want that and in a way, donald trump, like him or don't like him, has put all those issues on the table. on the table. >> and this is where democrats are wondering, do they have a message? do they need a message? maybe they don't need one and

they can win the mid terms, you but a reform message, i can't tell you how many people -- voters get it. they get, until you fix the politics, you can't tackle the issue you care about. more voters are coming to that conclusion. >> so i think part of what's happening, you have this polarization, and it's not just as some people think, a polarization of politically involved elites. it's a polarization of voters at large, and when you get further and further away, you're going to trust your fellow citizens left. right now, we have parties that are not interested in persuading people on the other side or the shrinking number of people in the middle. maybe that changes in 2020, when you have a presidential election, which tends to be a little more about persuasion and a little less about mobilization. but right now, that's not what people are hearing. >> and it doesn't seem -- i think you're right there. it doesn't seem, until the message sells, people aren't going to grab it, but it seems this country is screaming for somebody to fix the structure of

american democracy. >> yeah. which is really striking, as you said, howard. donald trump has put this on the table. but he was elected in part to break norms, not to break america, but to break some norms, to say that we're not going to do things the way we've always done it, because his argument, the winning one, that isn't working for too many americans. and obviously it resonated. and what you may be seeing a little bit here is a certain amount of backlash or buyers' remorse among some voters, but also a reckoning of, what did that really mean for everyone? if you scramble the rules, what does that mean? >> and it does get to the polarization that ramesh was bringing up as well, the lack of distrust, collectively, left and right agree, there's too much money in politics.

then you say, how do you take it out? then you have a real divide. you have the left that says, let's publicly fund, that's a big -- and the right going, i don't want my tax dollars going to that. >> my sense of this, in talking to people, they wanted donald trump to shake things up. they didn't want him to make the polarization worse. now the hard-core supporters of donald trump did want to make the polarization worse, because they felt they hadn't been listened to in 30 years. >> and when they finally won, they wanted to rub our nose in it, look at that. >> and they wanted everybody to know that no, this is more than one country. but i think in seeing some of the excesses of this now, which by the way is enhanced by our business, we gotta say. people are saying, no, we see the consequences of that now, and we do want people to be able to get together. >> the necessary forest fire that maybe donald trump is a necessary forest fire that

concentrates the mind. >> so let me add a little bit more to the pessimism, because i think part of the problem is on the left and on the right, there's a sense on each side, we speak for the people. it's only trickery that lets the other people win. on the left, it's gerrymandering that has caused the other side, it's russia that has caused the other side to win. on the right, if it's not for the media and hollywood, we'd be getting our way on everything. with both sides thinking they already speak for the majority, they feel even less reason to persuade. >> that's why populism can be so powerful and damaging all at the same time. >> well, clearly. donald trump's fundamental argument was to go around some of that polarization while exploiting it at the same time. right? he went to an emotional argument that clearly crossed a lot of party lines, you know, see pennsylvania, see ohio, but, you know, the polarization is there

as well. >> look at that. he knows how to divide everywhere, including the nfl, as we just saw earlier today. ramesh and howard, thank you very much. good luck to the caps tonight. coming up, a story about a thing.

finally, in case you missed it, last week, we told you all about president trump's history lessons and all those things people don't know. >> many people don't know. >> a lot of people don't know.

>> people don't realize. >> a lot of people didn't know. >> what people don't realize. >> a lot of people don't realize. >> most people don't know. >> a lot of people don't know it. >> today president trump added another thing to the list of things a lot of people don't know. >> people don't realize, you know, if you go back to the civil war, it was the republicans that really did the thing. >> the thing. a lot of people don't realize the republicans did the thing. and do you know who was the most responsible for the thing? apparently, it was the guy. you remember the guy. very famous even till today. a lot of people don't know that. the guy gave famous speeches even at the place. the guy stood up in front of all the people at the place and said all the stuff about the thing. so we think by "the thing," we think the president meant the abolition of slavery. i guess it's possible he meant the thing from the thing.

anyway, mr. president, please be a little more accurate. just ask frederick douglas, who's done an amazing job. people are talking about him, you know, with the thing. that's all. we'll be back tomorrow. the thing with ari melber starts right now. it is a thing. >> it's all things. thank you, chuck todd. tonight, we're following several breaking stories, republicans taking on trump with action to protect bob mueller on the hill. also, donald trump's epa chief grilled. will trump stand by him? and my special report about what people may be getting wrong about why the trump/kanye bromance matters. we begin with donald trump's defense of his personal lawyer completely publicly backfiring. michael cohen headed to a federal courtroom today. trump was trying to stick up with him, but instead made an admission, that you probably know,