this president one year and three months in, it's that he's expert at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in terms of muddying his own potentially positive news cycles. the president consumed this morning on twitter russia investigation again. tweeting his daily collusion denial. quote, just out, house intel committee report released. no evidence that the trump campaign colluded, coordinated or conspired with russia. clinton campaign paid for opposition research obtained from russia. wow! must end now. it was one of the clearest articulations, if you can call it that, of his intention or desire to end investigations into russian interference. and it also came on the very same day that nbc news is reporting that a key figure in that trump tower meeting in which the president's son, son-in-law and campaign chairman, two of those men under scrutiny by the special counsel, one charged with numerous crimes by the special counsel, met with a russian informant. that's right, the russian lawyer

who met with the president's family and campaign team to deliver dirt on hillary clinton now describes herself as a lawyer and informant for a top kremlin official. this is brand-new reporting from nbc's richard engel and is based on e-mails that show that the russian lawyer in question natalia veselnitskaya has now recanted her earlier denials of russian government ties. she acknowledged to nbc news that, quote, i am a lawyer and i am an informant. since 2013 i have been actively communicating with the office of the russian prosecutor general. the significance, of course, is that the trump tower meet sergio garcia a known flash point to be under investigation and scrutiny by special counsel robert mueller in his investigation into possible obstruction of justice and collusion.

to help us understand how richard's reporting impacts both the special counsel investigation and essentially renders incomplete or irrelevant the house intel committee report, we have some of our very best reporters and guests. with us from washington, jeremy bash, former chief of staff at the cia and pentagon and an msnbc analyst. natasha bertrand, writer for the atlantic covering intel and national security. also an msnbc contributor. john heilman, nbc news and msnbc national affairs analyst. and host and producer of showtime's most awesome show, the circus. and jeremy meters, "the new york times" reporter and an msnbc contributor. let me start with you, jeremy bash, because you have taken -- you actually taught me how to say veselnitskaya, veselnitskaya, veselnitskaya. which i practiced. but you have also taken me through the liabilities for jared kushner, donald trump, jr., and paul manafort who sat in a meeting in trump tower on a

day when the president was in town, with russians. we now know more about one of those russians, miss veselnitskaya. what is the significance of richard's reporting today? >> i think in richard's report we see clear and conclusive evidence that she was working with the russian government, which is really not a shock. i think that was obvious to most folks who have observed her and her actions. and in part because the way the meeting in trump tower was set up, nicolle, it was advertised by rob goldstone, the publicist for those russian billionaires. he said this is part of the russian government's effort to support the trump campaign. so, it was a russian government delegation that paul manafort, don junior and jared kushner met with and, therefore, the fact that she now acknowledges her real role really only clarifies what i think has been known for many months. >> you and i made a new year's resolution to drop the word collusion. that's established. this is collusion, coordination. >> that's right. >> talk to me how this rises to

a proof point or significant development if you're trying to prove something criminal, some sort of conspiracy. >> i think this is really important, nicolle. so, if i wanted something from you, i would basically say, i'm doing you a huge favor and i'd make sure that i got the credit for it. and if you knew that, then later i'd come and say, now i want to collect and i'd ask you for something and you'd probably comply. that's exactly what happened here. the russian government came to trump tower. they said we're going to do you a huge favor. we're going to drop op-o on your opponent hillary clinton. what we want is relief from the sanctions, relief from the magnitsky act and we want to talk about policy. the trump campaign through a secret channel talked about sanction relief. collusion, we have this idea trump and putin were whispering to each other on a day-to-day basis. that's not what happened. nobody believes that's what happened. the president keeps using the word collusion. but that is not in fact what bob mueller is looking at. >> natasha, take us through -- we were talking earlier and i think richard painter who was the ethics officer in the bush white house. had a tweet out, described her as a michael cohen-like figure

in vladimir putin's orbit, which is a good parallel to draw for american audiences. she was a person who solved potential political problems or engaged in some of the dark arts of their -- russia's domestic politics on behalf of putin. talk about the significance of this revelation that she has now, i think after testifying before the senate judiciary committee, that she was neither of these things, she was not tied to the kremlin and she was not working on behalf of the russian government. she now when confronted with e-mails that proved just that, she has now recanted from sworn testimony to the senate judiciary committee. >> right. and i think that the e-mails she was confronted with corroborate what we've known all along, which is that she was very, very close to the russian prosecutor, the russian prosecutor general. if anyone is going to be the

direct link to putin, it's going to be chaika and he kind of made reversing the magnitsky act which of course has to do with u.s. sanctions on russia for human rights abuses and corruption, he made that on behalf of vladimir putin one of his main goals when he entered office as the russian prosecutor. veselnitskaya was used as basically his agent of that goal. so, he dispatched veselnitskaya essentially to new york to meet with the trump campaign to discuss overturning these sanctions, essentially they said that they spoke about adoption, but of course that's code for removing these sanctions that are really a thorn in putin's side. they're one of his biggest foreign policy objectives is to overturn the magnitsky act sanctions. so, if anyone is going to be called kind of a fixer here, i would say that it's more accurate to describe him as acting on putin's behalf and him using veselnitskaya to, you know, disseminate what the

kremlin's talking points. of course, he also did the same thing with congressman dana rohrbacher. he gave dana rohrbacher, a republican, the same memo essentially, that veselnitskaya brought with her to trump tower last june which were basically talking points, trying to overturn the magnitsky act, trying to undermine bill broader who of course is this financier who made it his project to spearhead the magnitsky act sanctions after his tax lawyer was murdered by the kremlin. so, they worked hand in hand and it really shows now -- she calls herself an informant. that is also not really an accurate term. i would say she was definitely working as an agent of chaika and therefore an agent of the kremlin. >> we have congressman swalwell joining us in a moment. what you described was a footnote in the house intel report. i want to pull back the lens a little. when director brennan was here we asked about congressional testimony, whether members of

the trump orbit wittingly or unwittingly were manipulated or used adds agents of the russians. let's watch that and see if enthuse information changes our understanding of what he was talking about. >> and my comments to congress, i said that individuals either wittingly or unwittingly aided the russians. thsz why it is so important robert mueller and investigators continue to do their work, to pull the threads and try to determine whether or not individuals were actively working or knowingly working to advance russia. they were doing it in violation of u.s. law, of all types of american ethics and values. and this is something i think the american people deserve to know about. >> it certainly seems like getting to the bottom of whether they knew who she was. now that we know who she was is part of answering director brennan's question. >> i think it's true. i don't want to in any way downplay the significance of

this, of the reporting today. knowing who this woman was, what she was up to, what her connections were, the kremlin, all really important. i hate to say that i go back to the very beginning of this story. you look at donald trump's jr.'s reaction to the e-mail. >> yeah. >> where he's offered dirt on hillary clinton by someone who claims to be linked to the russian prosecutor and he says, yeah, bring it on, i love it. it seems pretty witting to me. it always seemed witting to me. this information ties her, as jeremy said, if there's a criminal case brought, it's possible this will aid bob mueller into actually indicting natalia veselnitskaya -- >> veselnitskaya. >> it's possible that they will have -- this will have importance implications in courts of law or at least in legal proceedings. but in terms of what the trump people knew i feel as though we have known effectively whether they were trying to do russia -- advance russia's interest is still a little obscure. whether they were willing to

work with russians in order to try to advance their own interests, i.e., in defeating hillary clinton, i think that's been clear now for a little almost a year. >> jeremy, i saw your face. react to that for me. >> yeah, and let me turn for a second, nicolle, to the house republican intelligence committee report that came out today. i know we're going to get to it. one of the findings they have in the report is kind of crazy. they said trump junior, jared kushner and paul manafort attended the meeting at trump tower expecting to receive dirt on hillary clinton, but ultimately did not obtain that information, as if that's the way the russians would do it. that they would hand it over to paul manafort or don junior. of course that was never what was going to happen. in fact, it's not what happened. the trump -- excuse me, the russian federation used cut outs, they used wikileaks, they used others to dump what they perceived as derogatory information on hillary clinton into the political 2016 campaign. >> so, jeremy, we have seen bob mueller indict 13 russians for their role in meddling in our elections.

we've seen him charge and get guilty pleas out of many people in the president's orbit, his campaign chairman -- he hasn't pleaded. he's been charged. his deputy campaign chairman, former national security advisor. where do these pieces fit into bob mueller's investigation into potential collusion, where are the places people have criminal liability and who are those people? >> again, we're not talk ug about collusion, nicolle. let's get our terms straight. we're talking about whether there was a conspiracy, a meeting of the minds between russia and the trump campaign. that's where the trump tower meeting, papadopoulos meeting, any other ties between carter page and russian government officials and ultimately any ties between mike flynn and russian government officials, whether or not those amount to, in essence, foreknowledge, approval, and ultimately a meeting of the minds. yes, you guys go ahead and dump this op on hillary clinton. we're okay with it, we're going to approve of it and that is in fact the conspiracy. >> and in return, if we win, we will relieve those sanctions,

which was a call we now understand that general flynn made on inauguration day. i think there is footage of him on his cell phone on that day. >> that's right. when he lied about it to the fbi, they nailed him and he pled guilty. >> jeremy peters, will we also understand to be very much in the water at 1600 pennsylvania avenue is an effort to use this report as exoneration. we read the president's tweet, now it's clear, i've been cleared, i've been cleared by devin nunes. i'm not sure the president believe that is exactly exoneration. talk about the president's tweet today and what has almost become a verbal tick. i think he says the phrase no collusion at least half a dozen times a day out loud or on twitter. >> that is exactly right. in watching this story play out,

i think if you are watching fox news every night, as we know the president is, you think that robert mueller and rod rosenstein are about ready to be thrown in jail, that they have committed crimes against the constitution that are so catastrophic that, you know, they ought to be hauled out of the justice department in handcuffs. so, yes, the president i think really does believe that. he marinates in that all day, all night long. there is a sense of grievance, of persecution burning inside him basically his whole life. so, this fits right into that. i think to john's point about what exactly happened at trump tower, whether it was witting or unwitting, i think it almost -- where did donald junior think he was get thing information from? >> right. unwitting is growing more implausible as this goes on. >> exactly.

like the idea that this wasn't coming from some type of well-sourced russian official. i mean, i find that a bit implausible. trump's argument has always been, we didn't know what we were doing, we didn't expect we were going to win. we were a fly by night operation a bunch of guys working on a shoe string budget with twine and bubblegum holding this ship together. okay, is that a legally defensible case to make in court? i don't think so. >> jeremy, can you answer that? >> i think it's tenuous. again, it will go to intent. this is one of the reasons why it is important that the president actually sits down and has a interview with bob mueller it's because bob mueller needs to understand what was in the president's mind when he authorized his senior high command of the campaign to meet

with the russian government to get dirt on hillary clinton. that intent, that piece of it has to be part of the mueller record. >> but are we staring at trees and missing the forest? donald trump called putin a great leader. donald trump said to our friends and colleagues, joe and mika, he's not that bad of a killer. we're killers, too. he wanted his aides to go out and ease sanctions. he was in the building the day -- they were trying to hide a meeting with russians interest donald trump. he was in the building that day. he went to a fund-raiser with chris christie. why are we talking around this? is there any question he knew they were being aided by and down with helping the russians? >> well, i think there's some question. certainly -- >> about which part? >> i think about what exactly donald trump knew that the various people on his campaign were doing. the notion that donald trump has

been cozying up to putin obviously undisputed. >> just a coincidence that -- >> not a coincidence. i think the question literally -- i don't think you can dispute, jeremy made the point a second ago about the twine and bubblegum. it is a fact the trump campaign was a, kind of -- i'm -- >> a circus? >> i'm trying not to use profanity here. >> a [ bleep ] show? >> yes, that's what i was trying to find the word for. the donald trump -- did he know papadopoulos was off doing x, y or z? did he know about individual meetings? i would think it credits donald trump too much to think that he knew about individual actions taken on behalf of him in order to try to collaborate with or conspire with the russians. but did donald trump make it clear to everyone around him that he loved vladimir putin, that he wanted to be in bed with vladimir putin metaphorically? he was happy to have the help of the russians. hey, russia, if you have hillary clinton's 35,000 e-mails bring them on. that's how ceos of the company works. what you do is set the broad direction. you make clear -- >> he didn't run apple.

it was a family office. like how many people did he have to check with to know what was going on in trump tower? >> well, again, you know, i just don't know the answer to that question. i don't think it's provable. i don't necessarily think -- i think the day donald trump sat at that table and mentioned carter page as one of his foreign policy advisors, i'm not sure he met carter page before that moment and they put a piece of paper in front of him and said read his name. >> you can see the entire interview with natalia veselnitskaya. when we come back, what the committee knew about the russian informant who found herself deep inside trump tower in the summer of 2016. also ahead, new reporting on the reputational toll that a tour of duty in donald trump's administration is taking on everyone who walks through the door. and was our mad man scarier than their mad man and is the potential breakthrough with north korea cause for celebration or cautious optimism? stay with us.

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play [music plays]his". when everything's connected, it's simple. easy. awesome. no collusion, which i knew anyway. no coordination, no nothing. just a witch hunt. no collusion with russia, if you can believe this one. she probably can't believe it. who can? but the report was very powerful, very strong. there was no collusion between the trump campaign and the russian people. >> another day, another world leader subjected to that. president trump declaring victory on that report from the house intel committee, essentially ending the investigation into the trump

campaign and russia. but former cia director john brennan sees no reason to celebrate. slamming the report in a tweet this morning writing, quote, a highly partisan, incomplete and deeply flawed report by a broken house committee means nothing. the special counsel's work is being carried out business professional investigators, not political staffers. the special counsel's findings will be comprehensive and authoritative. stay tuned, mr. trump. joining our conversation is democratic congressman eric swalwell, a member of the house intel committee. take me inside where your committee was when its work was abruptly halted and the parade thrown for the president saying, nothing to see here. >> good afternoon, nicolle. we, from the very beginning, wanted to make this a bipartisan investigation.

we knew that the stakes were too high and we had too many witnesses when they wanted to close this investigation that were outstanding who we had not heard from. too many documents we wanted to subpoena and obtain, bank records, phone records, travel records, so many questions from witnesses who were not credible and we wanted to be able to test them and corroborate or contradict what they had said. so, to close the investigation and write such an inaccurate, incomplete and irresponsibly premature report does nothing to protect us as we go into the ballot box, as we go to the ballot boxes this november. >> so, a little bird told me that footnote 72 in your report is another data point about natalia veselnitskaya who nbc's own richard engel has an exclusive interview with tonight where she reveals and basically retracts her testimony before the senate judiciary committee. she admits that she is an informant and an agent with close ties to the kremlin. how can, on the same day that that information is first made public, how can your committee wrap up its work? >> you know, nicolle, if anyone was going to give sergey kislyak competition for employee of the

year for the russian government, it was natalia veselnitskaya. she was all over the world working on behalf of the russian government. footnote 72 and the minority report refers to congressman dana rohrbacher during the campaign being over in russia and, what do you know, he runs in without planning to see her, natalia veselnitskaya. we also learned of other occasions when congressman rohrbacher was traveling in other parts of the world where he would just bump into natalia veselnitskaya. she is a spy. donald trump, jr., on that june 9 meeting at trump tower, met with a spy and he told the team that brought him the information, i love it. and it would be better if we can disseminate what you're trying to give to me right before the election. they knew exactly what they were doing. they were willing and eager to work with the russians. for us today to learn that she is a spy i think shows just how

irresponsible it was to close our investigation. >> and, jeremy peters of "the new york times," reminds me steve bannon has colorful descriptions in "fire and fury" what he believed don junior to have done with whatever he learned in that meeting as it relates to his father, informing him, bringing him into the loop. i think the book suggests that he may have even brought the participants up to the president's office to meet with him. nbc news has not reported that as a news organization, but you wanted to get to the bottom of whether the president had knowledge through another avenue and those subpoenas were not permitted. take us through that. it is something your colleague adam schiff has talked about today as well. >> the president's knowledge of the june 9, 2016 meeting at the trump tower is so important. here's what we know. we know that the president was in the building. we know that the people who

would ask for the meeting were close friends with the president who were in constant communication with donald trump. they were sending gifts back and forth to each other. so they're important people to donald trump. we know that candidate trump was just one floor above where this meeting took place. we also know that ivanka trump was present when the meeting took place. but we know that when the meeting was being set up, donald trump, jr., talked to -- had a phone call and made a phone call right after that to a blocked number. he calls agalarov right back it a blocked number. we know this blocked number may very well be donald trump's because other witnesses told us that donald trump would use a blocked number to make some of his calls. all we asked of the republicans was to allow us to subpoena the cell phone records for donald trump, jr. to see if you could link donald trump, jr. to his father as he's talking back and forth with the agalarovs. i think they didn't want to know what the answer was. >> what would the significance of the answer be? does that close the circle and prove the president was involved in, had knowledge of the

generous offer on behalf of the russians to give dirt to the trump campaign about their opponent? >> it would be very powerful circumstantial evidence. when you look at the time logs where he's talking -- in the e-mail exchange, donald trump, jr. tells him let's talk on the phone. they talk on the phone. then donald trump, jr. calls a blocked number and then he calls aman right back. to me as a former prosecutor that looks like he may well have called his father about taking this meeting with the agalarovs who are friends with donald trump. it would blow up the whole story that donald trump the candidate had no idea this meeting took place, which again to me is ludicrous considering he was in the building. was in the building with the family that asked for the meeting and that he had an interest in getting dirt on hillary clinton and that he had been intimating during the time that the meeting was taking place that there would be new information coming out about hillary clinton. so, that's a missing piece that we really could have cleared up

for the american people. >> do you have -- just on a scale of 1 to 10, what is your degree of concern that your committee chairman devin nunes is simply running an operation fueled by or giving fuel to sean hannity and the folks at fox news to inflame a flawed view of the fbi and the special counsel, and to simply serve as political cover for the president who, if what you just described is a viable fact pattern, i have to imagine bob mueller, too, would want know who don junior was receiving calls from on a blocked number. you would have to assume the special counsel would have more subpoena power than the intel committee. do you think you were getting close to something and that's why the president's ally shut down the investigation way before the facts were underground? >> how close was devin nunes working with the white house on this investigation on a scale of 1 to 10. it goes to 11. it was that concerning that every time we made progress, we saw obstruction from the chairman and there were -- there are a number of pieces of other evidence we had unearthed if we could just subpoena bank records or phone logs or travel logs, we could have tested a lot of the

answers that we were receiving from some of these witnesses. there's a lot of witnesses we wanted to call in, like natalia veselnitskaya who the republicans refused to allow to come in if we were to continue our investigation. so, chairman nunes, he acted as donald trump's michael cohen in congress. he was a fixer for this investigation. it's really sad to say that because this committee had always worked in such a bipartisan way. but as soon as james comey said that the president's campaign was under criminal and counter intelligence investigation, devin nunes went to work to protect the president, not the democracy who we are all charged with working for. >> let me get the last word to veteran of the committee, from a better day, jeremy bash.

>> i think congressman swalwell has exactly right. it is a sad day because the bipartisan tradition of intelligence oversight has fundamentally broken down because they want to protect the president. i commend congressman swalwell and congressman schiff who put out an excellent minority report. i urge folks to look at it. to me, nicolle, the bottom line if that blocked number was donald trump's number it means he knew exactly what the russian government was doing and he approved of it. >> congressman eric swalwell, jeremy bash and natasha bertrand, thank you so much. when we come back, west wing disfunction at any highs or lows depending on who you ask. we'll bring you the latest reporting on the west wing knife fights. captivating exteriors dynamic lighting elevated comfort powerfully efficient

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[ drum roll ] ...emily lapier from ames, iowa. this is emily's third nomination and first win. um...so, just...wow! um, first of all, to my fellow nominees, it is an honor sharing the road with you. and of course, to the progressive snapshot app for giving good drivers the discounts -- no, i have to say it -- for giving good drivers the discounts they deserve. safe driving! for giving good drivers the discounts they deserve. we need to help more tocalifornians get ahead.d, that's why antonio villaraigosa brought both parties together to balance the state budget with record investments in public schools... and new career training programs. as mayor of la, he brought police and residents together to get illegal guns off the streets

and keep kids out of gangs, and on the right path. that's antonio villaraigosa. a governor for all of california. it probably sounds a little old-fashioned but it used to be the honor of a lifetime to serve one's country and work in any white house. but for most of the men and women who walk into this white house, there is a good chance

they'll walk out tarnished days, weeks or months later and at a time and place often not of their choosing. a phenomenon "the new york times" describes a ride on donald trump's bullet train can be thrilling but it is a brutal journey that leaves some bloodied by the side of the tracks. and only 15 months in office, mr. trump has burned through a record number of associates who found themselves in legal trouble or all three. the art of the deal writer says people are not people to him. they are instruments of his ego. and when they serve his ego, they survive. and when they don't, they pass into the night. it was this mentality on full display this week when the washington post described as, quote, convulsed by chaos and contradiction. inside the white house the response to this week's convulsions were being personally directed by trump who is acting as his own strategist making decisions unilaterally sometimes to the surprise of his

senior staffers. quite, it's starting to feel like the early days everyone running around red faced trying to keep up with the president. joining us now is veteran journalist susan glasser now with the new yorker, and with us at the table rev al sharpton. you look the least surprised. this is how donald trump rolls. >> it is always how he rolled. i keep telling people he never served in public office. you can go by his business career. most of the people that did business with him have complained they didn't get paid or they were paid only after they went through all kind of hoops to get paid. and you don't know any executives that left the trump organization and became shining stars in the private sector. i mean, name one. name one trump organization

alumni that went on to became big in a fortune 500 company or big in terms of any of the private sector entities. so, he's not one that has done well by any of those that have worked for him in the past. why would we expect that he's going to change at 71 years old in the white house? >> susan glasser, you have an extraordinary body of reporting about a lot of figures in the national security orbit and your writing and reporting on h.r. mcmaster came to mind. the first story we read, your husband has a by line on that in "the new york times." second description in the washington post. i thought of h.r. mcmaster, someone who was revered by many, highly respected by just about everyone else. one of his sort of trials by fire was to go out to the driveway of the white house and try to insist that in a meeting where the president said to two senior russians, i got rid of that nutjob, jim comey and h.r. mcmaster was dispatched to the driveway to try to assure people that he hadn't leaked classified

information, which i think it turned out he had. so, talk about the journey that even some of the most respected people that went in with the mission of serving their country and trying to make it better and we can debate the merits of that another day, but talk about how everyone comes out tarnished. >> well, look, i think it's almost an inarguable proposition at this point. you mentioned h.r. mcmaster. he was a sitting general. you could argue more than most he had the duty to sign up by all accounts he wasn't angling to become the national security advisor. what's striking to me is not that he fell out with trump or you get too close to his orbit. his orbit is the people around him and what's really interesting, right, is the infighting that this style of management causes and that's part of how people start to end up tarnished or with permanent friendships and relationships destroyed. that's basically what happened inside president trump's national security team, which is

why we have a brand-new secretary of state and national security advisor today. h.r. mcmaster came in as a natural ally and partner of former general marine general john kelly, the white house chief of staff, former general mattis, now the defense secretary. what happened? they fell out with each other. and my reporting suggests that they actually did so really over the question of president trump and how accommodating or not to be to his sometimes arbitrary demands for military action. >> there's a lot of reporting, a lot of rumors in the air that kelly isn't long for the inner circle. there is some suggestion he isn't in the inner circle at this point, that he's like the 6th sense, he's dead he may not know it yet. >> that's been true for a while. the white house is a magic place. you talked about it being old-fashioned, it was an honor to serve there. i'll be a little more cynical

about it in this sense. we have seen a lot of people go through the white house, extraordinarily high talent, some mediocrity. you can be on corporate boards, you are worth more economically, your stature has been enhanced even if you're not really that gate at your job. it's a buffering machine. this this white house, i can't think of anybody who is coming out the other side in a better condition than they went in -- when they went in the door at the beginning of the administration. i'll say this just to take this conversation a slightly different direction. the fundamental thing that causes that -- so it's true in the white house ask it's true in trump's businesses. people go in, they come out worse off than when they walked in the door. it's trump, right? at this moment, that tendency, the thing that trump does to diminish people rather than enhance them is right on the brink of coming back to bite him because michael cohen is maybe the most important example of

someone who is now realizing that he has not been enhanced by donald trump, but he's ultimately going to be diminished, by being put in jail. as he's realizing that it could be the cause for him to ultimately turn on donald trump. >> i think john is exactly right. look at the people who have left the white house. they end up leaving in disgrace or under an indictment. or potential indictment. >> or as some federal prosecutors say on team america, working for bob mueller. >> that's right, they flip. one of the interesting aspects of the kind of corrosiveness of donald trump's washington, think of how prestigious it used to be to work in the white house. look at the law firms that turned their back on donald trump. how prestigious it used to be to represent the president. you still had law firms lining up -- >> monica lewinsky. >> the same thing. law firms will not touch this president because they know it will kill their recruiting. they will not be able to hire young lawyers because nobody would ever go work for the law firm that defended donald trump. >> it's unbelievable.

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enthusiasm for somebody, for them wanting to make a deal. and, yeah, i agree, the united states has been played beautifully like a fiddle because you had a different kind of a leader. we're not going to be played, okay. >> i mean, he might be right about that, although perhaps not for the reasons he thinks. here's the question. what happens when the united states elects a leader more unpredictable and unwilling to color outside the lines than any american president in history? the truth is we don't know yet. but even some of the biggest skeptics of donald trump are giving him the benefit of the doubt today that the apparent breakthrough with north korea signifies progress. the north korean dictator crossed over the world's most heavily armed border today to hold in-person talks with south korean president moon jae-in.

the two countries have agreed to an ambitious pledge, no more war. and a common goal of the complete denuclearization of the korean peninsula. susan is still here. susan glasser, what do you think? >> you know, first of all, americans, they like to root for peace and those pictures, no matter what you think of donald trump, are significant pictures that, you know, should give people hope. this is a 70--year-old conflict. who is against that? on the one hand. on the other hand, you know, i think you have in the form of donald trump and kim jong-un two leaders who are desperate for victory. and so probably both sides are asking, well, at what cost? when those two leaders finally do meet in person, remember, you know, trump made this decision to have his own summit with north korea, impromptu, clearly against the advice of at least some of his advisors. it's a risky move. and the north koreans have been asking for it for years. what we haven't really had answered yet is what did we get in return for making that concession to the north koreans. so, we'll wait and see, but obviously i think maximum

pressure and the feeling that they weren't going to get anything in any other way is part of what has brought north koreans to the table today. >> so, i want you to answer how much of the credit do you think the president deserves. but i also want you to speak to the roles of mike pompeo, our newly sworn-in secretary of state and john bolton is a couple weeks on the job and i understand they have been heavily involved. >> i'm kind of like where susan is, but i flip it over. you start with, of course, this is like it all end in tears. whatever we deal with with north korea, they're liars, they never hold up, there is this long history. all the caveats should apply. >> how about the nature of the north korean regime? >> these are supposed to be landmark agreements. the photo ops between north and south korea, there have been many of them going back the lost 40 years. often they end up being a lot less than they are built up as. at the same time, just in rice entitle history, think six months ago, "fire and fury," little rocketman. >> locked and loaded. >> serious people were worried

about the possible outbreak of a land war on the korean peninsula or potentially nuclear war. we're not there now. once you set all the caveats in place, things are better today than they were six months ago. i don't know what happens' affecting his brain. is it possible he's looked at trump and said this mad man theory is actually affecting the other mad man and he's thinking, you know, i've got to maybe make some deals here because this guy is crazy enough to do something that could incinerate my entire regime. it's possible. donald trump will claim some credit for it. is he totally responsible? no, he's not, of course. but within the realm of the way presidents claim credit for things, donald trump has a right to stand up and say, i took it for an approach and we seemed to be headed in the right direction.

cautious optimism is the right course, but a lot of vigilance and a lot of caveats. >> susan, you want to weigh in on the role of south korea and china who faced threat from the north koreans? >> it is important to understand what's happening, arguably, kim has seen a really good opportunity to peel off the south koreans from the u.s. because part of the crisis of the last year with president trump tweeting and everything is a recognition perhaps on the part of or allies in south korea that we didn't have their back in the same way any more. so, part of what we're seeing today in these pictures is actually a fairly, you know, smart political move by the north koreans to bring in the south koreans. we'll see, how does our partnerships and our allies greet this move. >> susan glasser, thank you so much for spending some time with us. up next, something tells me the president's lawyers won't like hearing this, but it looks like the pajama phoner is back for good. with this level of intelligence... it's a supercomputer. with this grade of protection... it's a fortress.

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>> if you are a fan of president trump's pajama phoner, kellyanne conway has good news four. >> the president wanted to do that. the president had a great time bringing his case directly to the american people as he does on social media and these bilateral q and as certainly at the south lawn and in the press pool sprees and with other interviews. and the president has said that he would like to perhaps come once a month, and as news breaks. >> come to fox -- >> she says once a month like i hope that's enough for him. >> and the sound in the background was the last remaining lawyers in the trump administration packing up their boxes and leaving. >> this shows you how little has changed the fox and friend relationship goes back to 2010, 2011. there was a recurring segment called mondays with trump. ch. he would phone in every monday just like he would like to do now.

back then he was speaking -- fox news was a tool of trump to speak to the base. >> the birther base, really. >> exactly. and people you know were surprised that he caught on politically the way that he did. no, he was always talking to these people. >> you know, i come on sunday mornings, 8:00, application nation live. he can call president trump. he can call any sunday morning live. i won't say anything. i'll let him talk and it will drive out the vote that people need in the midterm election. i would just let him go. the longer he talks the more you will see people line up, because to have him in the raw as they did yesterday shows people how come people like me take the position we do. we don't think this president is coherent. not only did he trip up his legal case and that of michael cohen, here a guy that had nothing to do -- i mean, they

had to tell him, you are busy, mr. president. they kept talking. >> they hung up on him. that was the most remarkable thing that i heard from people, that they ended it. >> i think it felt to me -- i do not know this to be true but it felt the me like there was a moment where a call came into the control room of fox and friends potentially maybe from someone like rupert murdoch who saw the trouble trump was getting in and called and said we have got to cut this off for his own good. i thought the hosts looked relieved because although they were happy to be making news on their program i think they realized. >> why do you think he seemed that way. >> he sounded to me like someone having a manic episode on television. it wasn't the word. the words were unhinge hadded but not out of the normal bounds for him. it was the tone, the high pitched scratchy pal pi tating

tone. like he had been overnight. i know some people who have been up all night and kelly, whether he is in and out kelly certainly hasn't changed things aed the white house. >> we have to sneak in our last break. we'll be right back. "i have antivirus, but my computer's still slow..." "i think it's time for the fixmestick." fixmestick is a plug-in virus removal device. it's the smart, simple way to clean an infected computer, with a whole lot going on inside the stick... [computers sound] "this one got around the antivirus software!" "not a problem." "we're on it." and because it connects to the internet, fixmestick it's always up to date.

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i think something's going on at school. -[ sighs ] -he's not engaging. all right. in my final seconds, i'll put a reporter on the spot. what happens next. >> assuming that the north korean negotiations go well assumes that a white house that has gotten all of the little things wrong can get the big things right. i think that's a big assumption to make. >> you think that's the assumption they are making, that's their gam be, they are going to stumble along. >> i think pop of audio is competent ten and knows exactly what he's doing.

again, pompeo is not the one in charge. >>ly not going to be the one on the ballot either. my thanks to my panel. that does it for our hour. i'm nicolle wallace, "mtp daily" starts right now. oh, please, god, why? >> he was such a good father. he'll never get over this. this really can happen to anyone. >> it's the case that stunned parents everywhere. the dad whose young son died in the car. >> apparently he had forgotten the child was in the car seat in the back and went to work. >> i know you didn't, baby. i know you didn't. >> i think any parent could put themselves in that situation. >> full denial. like that it wasn't happening. >> then came the jaw-dropping news, police said it was murder. >> there was far more to this story that we were beginning to realize.