i'm not a real estate expert but my advice to eric would probably be don't. maybe it's better for businesses to keep the trump name off. that does it for me. ari will be back here tomorrow night. "hardball" with chris matthews starts right now. >> hush hush sweet stormy. let's play "hardball." \s. >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. we're learning for the first time the hush money paid to stormy daniels came from president trump himself. the dramatic confession of the president's personal involvement with the payoff was made by his new lawyer, rudy giuliani. >> this was supposed to be about trump campaign, russia collusion. >> gone. >> it's gone. never happened. >> he's been cleared of that. >> my question is, are you concerned in the process of this, we did discover that a

foreign national christopher steele, was paid through fusion gps, used russian sources that not only weren't verified were debunked. are you concerned that that was paid for tore manipulate the american people in the leadup to an election. >> isn't that closer to the mandate than michael cohen. >> why isn't that happening? where is mueller on that, sir. >> having something to do with paying some stormy daniels woman $130,000ed? i mean which is going to turn out to be perfectly legal. that money was not campaign money. sorry, i'm give ugh a fact now that you don't know. it's not campaign money. no campaign finance violation. >> they funneled it through a law firm. >> funneled through a law firm and the president repaid it. >> do you know the president didn't know about this? i believe that's what michael had said. >> he didn't know the specs of it as far as i know.

he did know about the general arrangement that michael would take care of things like this. like i take of things like this for my client. i don't burn them with every single thing that comes alonging. >> giuliani a former federal prosecutor said the money was funneled from trump to his lawyer fixer michael cohen and then to the adult film actor. in march, cohen said he paid daniels $130,000 a week a week before the 2016 presidential election to keep her quiet about his sexual relationship with president trump ten years earlier. i should say the white house has denied that relationship. just a month ago, trump denied knowing anything about the payments to daniels. let's watch that. >> did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no. >> then why did michael cohen make it if there was no truth? >> you have to ask michael. michael is my attorney and you'll have to ask michael. >> do you know where he got the

money to make that payment? >> i don't know. >> well, this morning, in a tweet, president trump confirmed his complete 180. he said cohen was reimbursed from his for his payment to daniels through a monthly retainer. breathtaking turn of events represents an apparent effort to protect likal cope and trump from a campaign violation. according to "the washington post," the president and his lawyer have been discussing the new strategy for weeks. three people familiar with the conversation tell "the post" giuliani and trump have talked through a thickette of legal issues beyond the russian investigation and decided it would be best to explain why trump and cohen acted as they did and explain their business relationship, the people said. i'm joined by michael avenatti, katie phang fang and robert costa reporter for the west and an msnbc political analyst. robert, let me start with you on the politics. why all of a sudden they're opening their pockets and secrets and trump is saying

through giuliani yeah, i paid the $130,000. i was behind the payment. >> talk to mayor giuliani around midnight last night and again today. he is working closely with the president in an isolated way and not talking to white house staff or other lawyers who are part of the white house. he is talking to other members of the lee team on the outside trying to cop up with a way after addressing an the stormy daniels issue. giuliani believes it could become a campaign finance debate at some point, a real controversy for the president. and he decided with the president's blessing he said to get out in front of it with his comments on fox news. >> so as long as it looked like or the public story coming from the white house and cohen was that he, cohen, paid the $130,000, got it out of his home equity loan or whatever, as long as that story was out there, cohen could be charged with a campaign violation of exceeding the $2700 limit of what you can give to a candidate by giving $130,000 to keep a story quiet a week before the election.

is that it? they would rather have trump basically admitting he had affair to keep her quiet? >> critics of the president and critics of mayor giuliani's explanation say he's spinning and trying to get out in front of the issue before it becomes a possible criminal issue or legal issue with the federal election commission. giuliani's perspective is that the president did nothing wrong because he paid michael cohen through these retainers and however michael decided to use the retainer was appropriate. but that kind of positioning will certainly come under scrutiny in the coming months. >> let me go to michael avenatti. i know you're involved in it. i want you to answer the first question which is it looks to me like as a former top aide to and consigliere with the president, of thinks he had the sexual relationship with your client and everybody believes he paid her. why not just admit it? >> they should have admitted

some time ago. here's the problem with the newfound strategy we're seeing. that may have worked three months ago. but a lot of water's gone under the bridge. you now have all these statements by michael cohen, michael cohen's attorney david swartz, you have statements by the white house spokesperson. you've got statements by the president on air force one. i mean, it's a little too late to put the genie back in the bottle. the bottom line is, the american people have been outright lied to over the last few months relating to this paint, relating to the agreement and what the president knew and when he knew it. frankly, i don't believe the most recent explanation and all of the additional details now that will mr. jew has spewed about over the last eight hours or so on various stations. i just don't. and this is why we need a deposition of the president and michael cohen where people have to raise their right hand and be sworn in and provide definitive answers to exactly what happened here. and until that happens, we're not going to stop.

>> what do you think will come of a deposition i've discovery when you've got the president under oath? do you believe he will admit under oath he was intending to pay the $130,000 from the begin org what? what do you think he'll say? for months they lied. they said he didn't intend to pay the money. it was all covered by michael cohen. he was somehow going to get the money from a hope equity loan or something. now they switched their story 180 overnight with sean hannity listening. what's the truth you expect to hear in a deposition under oath? >> i think the truth is going to be that the president knew about this all along and had michael cohen negotiate the agreement and make the $130,000 payment. chris, i just want to ask a simple question. >> that makes sense because anybody that finds them self -- trump is notorious for not paying his bills. if somebody tells him to pay a bill for $130,000 and i'll cover it but you write the check later, he would notice that and hate doing it but he would

probably do it. >> you're absolutely right. i have a very simple question. if this $130,000 reimbursement if there was nothing wrong with it and it was above board and not done in an effort to circumvent campaign finance laws or money laundering laws or bank fraud laws, why won't the $130,000 reimbursement payment made by collect or wire transfer in one fell swoop? why all the bogus legal bills and structuring the payment over many months? it doesn't pass the smell test. >> i agree with you. why did they need the offshore that they created the llc so they could hide the through there. you're right. if it was legit, why didn't they act legit. >> giuliani there morning all but admitted he paid it to avoid a campaign eeb scandal. in other words, it was a legitimate campaign expenditure. >> imagine if that came out october 15th, 2016 in the middle

of the last zmeebt so to make it go away, they made this. >> cohen didn't ask. cohen made it go away. did he his job. >> let me go to katie fang. we keep ask whether there's a campaign violation whether he it looked like michael cohen made the payment. now it's clear they're all saying trump was the ultimate pay yore. what do you make of the legal situation now? >> giuliani as a spokesperson for president trump has now said that structured payments were funneled through law firms. that is evidence of trump's consciousness of guilt. from a campaign finance standpoint is, the time is has been crucial. why pay off stormy daniels right before the presidential election. >> and you don't even have to call this circumstantial evidence of the fact that this was intended to influence the outcome of the election. you just heard giuliani through his own words as the mouthpiece for donald trump admit that if it had come out in the middle

after october 15, 2016 debate with hillary clinton, it would have tainted him. >> do you think giuliani's lost it? why would he admit the very charge against him which this is a campaign contribution aimed at steering the election in one direction rather than another? clearly it went in one direction because we didn't know the about it. hillary clinton would probably have won if the stink of this thing came out that giuliani is -- caught in bed with a important star and tried to pay her off with 130,000 bucks. i don't think all those voters that went for him marginally would have gone that way if they heard it. >> you have your extreme voting population that doesn't care. it always puzzles me that trump has not admitted to this. i have a theory there is an exceptional cheat clause with his pre-nuptial agreement that he has with melania trump. >> come on, katie. how do you -- you're purely

bsing now. >> i'm not. >> you're saying you honestly believe he's got this sort of exceptional claus clause here for extramarital affairs. you're saying that based upon what? >> that is not uncommon, number one and number two. >> based upon what are you charging that about giuliani -- i mean about trump? >> because why has he already admitted to other bad acts an of conduct in a sexual nature with other people but he refuses to acknowledge this one with stormy daniels. and the thing is, if you listen to the trump tweet tweet this morning what did he say about the nda that he entered into with daniels? he said it was to stop the false and extortionist attacks by daniels. >> i'm going to ask the injury to p jury to /* /- jury to put that aside. while defending the hush payment, giuliani accused federal agents of acing like storm troopers. let's watch him say that.

>> i was talking about the $130,000 payment, the settlement payment which is a very regular thing for lawyers to do. the question there was, the only possible violation there would be was it a campaign finance violation. which usually would rut in a fine, not this big storm troopers coming in and breaking down his apartment and breaking down his office. >> michael, that's a former prosecutor talking. storm troopers an aallusion to the nazis? >> i used to have a lot of respect for rudy guiliani. he show the some significant leadership around 9/11, but this guy's lost it. he's no longer ready for primetime and he doesn't know what the law is, by the way, as it relates to campaign finance law. you asked why would he admit it? because he doesn't understand what he's admitting. rudy guiliani thinks the only way you can have a campaign finance violation is if su use campaign funds to pay the $130,000. anything who knows anything about campaign innocence law knows that's not true.

this guy's a former prosecutor, u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. he's going to demean the men and women of the fbi by calling them storm troopers and making nazi references? it's an outrage to the people that wear the badge that put their lives on the line day in and day out for our safety, chris. he should be embarrassed by his comments. furthermore, michael cohen complemented the fbi as it related to how they handled the search warrants and how professional they were. these guys are desperate out there calling me an ambulance chaser, calling the fbi storm troopers. they'd better get back to the facts because they're in a lot of trouble. >> it was the attack on the institution of the fbi by the way, that i think had a lot to do with this robert costa. it seems rudy is making a mistake of going after the fbi when in fact that had a lot to do with the stimulus, if you will, for comey and mueller to get this whoa thing going to investigate what the heck the trump people are up to here in

terms of violating the code we have in this country about the rightness of the cause of the fbi. >> and it's part of the complicated role mayor giuliani's playing right now because he does have experience at the department of justice, as a u.s. attorney but going back to the 2016 campaign, he was very critical of the leadership at the department of justice, about how they were handling secretary clinton's e-mail investigation. he's been critical ever since a former fbi director james comey who pushed back against mayor giuliani in a tweet today about that storm trooper comment when i asked the mayor, he told me last night he thinks he could punch comey in the nose someone he worked with for years in law enforcement and he called him a sensitive baby. >> the street fight's begun courtesy of giuliani. thank you, michael avenatti and thank you robert cost taf and katie fang. rudy giuliani makes it a street fight on the attack saying he won't let the president be

suckered, his phrase, a good street phrase, into a perjury trap brif special counsel mueller. he called comey a liar and said he was fired because he wouldn't do in public what he had done in private clear trump in the russian probe. he called comey perverted. plus a former trump campaign aide says that muellerer investigation remains focused on collusion with the russians. he says they're on to something and not messing around. and rudy guiliani has had a rough start from last night's wild interview to his declaration he would have the russia probe wrapped up in a week or two. let me finish tonight with trump watch. he won't like this one. this is "hardball" where the action is. than our name suggests. we're an organic tea company. a premium juice company. a coconut water company. we've got drinks for long days. for birthdays. for turning over new leaves.

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welcome back to "hardball." we've been following rudy guiliani's stunning admission that president trump reimbursed like cohen for paints to stormy daniels up to $130,000. but it's not the only news he made last night. he also contradicted the president's position on a question that's been essential to the obstruction case stins day one. he said that former fbi direct ker james comey was fired because of the russia investigation because comey wouldn't follow trump's directive to him to publicly clear him of being a target which he had done in private. he couldn't do it in public according to this. let's watch. >> he fired comey because comey

would not, among other things, say that he wasn't a target of the investigation. he's entitled to that. hillary clinton got that. and he couldn't get that. >> it was only two weeks ago president trump specifically said otherwise tweeting that james comey was not fired because of the phony russia investigation. well now, giuliani's statement appears to support comey's own belief he was indeed fired over the russia probe. here's comey saying it himself. >> it's a fair judgment, it's my judgment that i was fired because of the russia investigation. >> today white house press secretary sarah huckabee sanders said that trump doesn't have to justify why he fired comey. let's watch her. >> there are a number of reasons that james comey was fired that the president named several of them. the bottom line is, he doesn't have to justify his decision. the president has the authority to fire and hire. i think every single day we've seen that he made the right decision in firing james comey. >> i'm joined by jonathan lemire

from the "associated press" and msnbc political analyst and joyce vance. let me ask you, jonathan, about the charges made by rudy guiliani. as the a street fighter's approach. he wants to raise the heat calling the guy a disgraceful liar, a perverted man. i don't know what that was about. all these charges you throw at somebody in a street fight, it's trash talk. then makes the case he was really fired because giuliani said that comey wouldn't say in public what he apparently told trump in private, you're not a target. still it puts him backing in an area of saying it was about russia and a probe. why is he doing all there? >> giuliani is a brawler ar similar to the president in that way. they have the street tough sense to them. it is again, you pointed out correctly, another shifting narrative trying to explain why comey was fired. this is the third or fourth

different rationale the white house presented in previous months. it's another effort to discredit comey, similar to let's remember is a witness in the mueller probe. it's a similar moment where we have seen the white house, the president himself, whether it's sessions or rosenstein or mueller, the attempt to discredit them and make them more polarizing political figures rather than law men above reproach. that way you discredit their findings, if they're negative to the president and if needed you justify the reasons why trump could fire them if it comes to that. >> let me go to voice because i want to ask you about style. why did trump go from these button down people like ty cobb with the handle bar mustache and sort i've guy who doesn't street fight on television. his biggest trouble is being overlerd at lunch. then giuliani out there just spewing this stuff like a flame thrower. what's that do to a guy judiciously? how does that help the president

inside the legal system? >> it really doesn't help the president. and although i'm sure giuliani thought he had a strategy last night when he went on television, it's real hard to discern today what that strategy was and how it helped the president. giuliani seems to play the role of almost comfort food. i guess he's the attorney version of comfort food for the president here. someone who is consistent with how the president likes to babe, someone who is consistent with his style. but who isn't doing a lot to help his defense here. >> what about the initial thing of trying to get him off the charge of a campaign violation by saying it wasn't a contribution to the campaign, it was the president's own money. he's a candidate so he can spend all he wants under the law. >> it didn't do anything to help with the campaign finance violation because if there was a contribution to the campaign from cohen that trump later paid back, they're still in the same hot water. only question is whether had he knew what they were doing, were

aware they were violating campaign finance law which would kick it from a regulatory violation where you have an investigation and maybe a monetary fine at the end over into criminal territory. but either one of those is really a bad outcome for trump and giuliani did nothing to make that situation go away. >> aside from seeming to corroborate comey's story, giuliani otherwise attacked his credibility as a witness against the president calling him as i said perverted. let's watch. >> i know james comey. i know the president. sorry, jim. you're a liar. a disgraceful liar. every fbi agent in america has his head down because of you. comey should be prosecuted for leaking confidential fbi information. i have the indignity unfortunately of having hired him for his first big job. i'm embarrassed that i hired him. this is a very perverted man. >> john, is that true? a rhetorical question that every member of the fbi has his head

down because of -- i think comey is their poster man, the guy they like to be like, he's their kind of guy. what do you making? i don't think copy's embarrassed the fbi. they're standing up for them. is he standing up for the fbi? >> i'm sure there are pockets of agent who's don't like james comey or disagree with how he handed key decisions in 2016. this is someone we hear time and time again in his testimony talking about the very best of the bureau and how much it means to him to have led that bureau and to have served in it for so long. this is another effort to sort of muddy him up to sully his reputation. an attack line that echoes what the president said. a president who has told privately his confidantes one of the things that outrages him about comey is comey wrote this book and trying to make money off of trump's name. in this case trump theres sullying his good name.

he hates other people profiting off of him. >> this morning giuliani said in an interview with mueller, it would be a perjury trap for the president. watch this. >> this started as collusion with the russians. no. >> right. >> now they go to obstruction of justice, collusion among the players. what they're trying to do is trap hip into perjury. we're not suckers. >> we do know we're going to bring up in the next segment knowledge from michael caputo based on his experience with the special prosecutors team they're looking very much at collusion with russia as a big part if not the central part of this investigation. joyce, i want to ask you about this. rudy is talking how it's going to be two or three hours, not the 49 question length or wide scope we've seen in the questions that were leaked. what is he talking about? what is his leverage to deliver on anything like that? >> this sounds a little bit like

fantasyland. he doesn't have leverage to bargain for this sort of a severe restriction on what federal prosecutors can ask a witness or a subject or someone who receives a grand jury subpoena. the best he can hope to do is try to come up with rational limits from his point of view, rational limits on the interview in exchange for agreeing to submit to it, but it won't be two hours and then we're done. it won't be you can only ask us questions about noncontentious issues. this isn't something that mueller is going to agree to. >> sounds like, right to me, joyce. thank you joyce for your expertise. jonathan lemire. up next, michael caputo says that the special counsel still focused very much on collusion with russia. an after being interviewed he says the investigators know what they're aiming at and are deadly accurate. they apparently know more about the campaign than the people who worked in it know. this is "hardball" where the

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welcome back to "hardball." a few witnesses in the russian probe have spoken out about the experience of being questioned by robert mueller's prosecutors. in march, we were introduced to an obscure former campaign aide by the way, sam nunberg. who insisted that mueller has something on the president related to his business

experience. now in a series of interviews last night, another witness, former trump campaign aide michael caputo is shedding new light on the investigation of possible collusion with the russians. here's what he said. >> i learned they're still looking at russian collusion. they're still looking for it. i was there during the time when they believe that russian collusion was initiated. that would be the only thing they would ask me about. that certainly is the only thing we talked about. if anybody thinks that russian collusion is off the table, they haven't visited with the mueller team. >> boy, that is news. caputo who worked on the trump campaign from late 2015 to early 2016 also said that mueller's prosecutors know exactly what they're looking for. >> the mueller team is spearfishing. i think they believe they know where they're going not asking a wide range of questions. that seemed to be unrelated. thee they have e-mails backing it up. i don't think that they asked any questions they don't already

know the answer to. if i'm a witness, that's what the aus app who interviewed me told me today. i'm a witness, not a subject or target. it doesn't matter once you get in the room, it's fraught with peril. i would compare it to a proctology appointment with a very large handed doctor. >> a lyrical fellow. joining me is ken vogel from the new york times. spearfishing i imagine a guy or woman who sees a fish and spears it. you know what you're looking for. you're not netting fish, you're spearing them this guy is saying that the mueller people really do have a clear background information as i think from this guy said they know more about the campaign than he did. >> i think there's a message embedded in what he's saying there. >> remember the iceberg metaphor, you never know what mueller is up to, there's so much. >> it is rare to have a witness come out and talk about what was discussed. that is also fraught with peril. i think the message embedded in what he's saying potentially

speaking through the media to other potential witnesses and possibly even to donald trump himself is be careful, they could be mueller's team could be setting you up for a perjury trap. in other words, if they're asking very specific questions about things that they already know the answer to. >> true or false questions. >> right, what is the purpose of that other than to catch you lying and potentially be able to flip you and use you against other witnesses or other subjects. >> i do care about the russian collusion because it has to do with our national defense. i don't like russians messing with us and i don't like any american playing ball with them. it was also important he said don't get the idea this isn't about collusion. >> a coup points to consider there. number one is, michael caputo is a long-time roger stone protege. my undering from my sources is a lot of questions to him were about roger stone or roger stone's role in the campaign. contextulizing when he says they

were asking about collusion it's during the time i was there. >> what do you know about roger stone's role? >> we see the dms and claims about him corresponding with wikileaks that could be at the core of a collusion investigation. i don't know necessarily that's what michael was asked about. my understanding is he was asked about roger stone. this guy is a roger stone guy. it's also important to know he wouldn't necessarily know. if they're narrowly targeting to individual witnesses, he's only getting what they know about him and what they think he knows. he's not getting this broader picture and won't get questions about stormy daniels or michael cohen. >> when roger stove said weeks before john podesta's e-mails were hacked he said this guy is about to spend his time in the barrel. he never explained except he knew it was coming. > he's trying to say that wasn't necessarily insider knowledge, just about stuff out there

publicly. roger stone to me suffers a little bit from this effort that he's sort of endeavored over the decades to build himself up. >> he wants people to think he's doing. >> now people believe him. >> he is a cloak and dagger guy. i've been in politics a long time. there's people out there like him that you don't know whether threw did it or not. it's better to be feared than loved. up next, from the stormy daniels case to the russian probe, giuliani has had a rocky start as the newest member and the top dog in the trump legal dog. is this a way to take the heat away from the boss? it's working. rudy's getting all the spotlight. do you think trump likes that? we'll see. you're watching "hardball." ♪ it's a lot easier to make decisions when you know what comes next.

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welcome back to "hardball." in his interview with sean hannity last night, rudy guiliani may have created new legal problems for the president. he told the "new york post" he hoped to end the russia probe soon saying, i don't think it's going to take more than a week or two to get a resolution. they're almost there. well, this morning, he changed his tune calling the investigation a waste of the president's time and saying his attorney general jeff sessions responsibility to wrap it up. >> we got kim jong-un impressed enough to be releasing three prisoners today. i've got go there and jay sekulow and -- we have to prepare him for this silly deposition about a case in which he supposedly colluded with the russians but there's no evidence of that? everybody forgets the basis of the case is dead. sessions should step in and close it. and say enough is enough.

>> giuliani weighed in on another potential target of mueller's probe, the president's daughter. ivanka. that's coming up next with the "hardball" roundtable. t. and market volatility isn't top of mind. that's because they have a shield annuity from brighthouse financial, which allows them to take advantage of growth opportunities in up markets, while maintaining a level of protection in down markets. so they're less concerned with market volatility and can focus more on the things they're passionate about. talk with your advisor about shield annuities from brighthouse financial- established by metlife.

these are the specialists we're proud to call our own. experts from all over the world, working closely together to deliver truly personalized cancer care. expert medicine works here. learn more at cancercenter.com welcome back to "hardball." in his interview with slaun han sit last night, giuliani called robert mueller's probe a garbage investigation. he also warned of one person mueller should avoid at all

costs. >> now, if they do do ivanka, which i doubt they will, the whole country will turn on him. they're going after his daughter. >> what about his son-in-law? what about him. >> i guess jared is a fine man. you know that. but men are, you know, disposable. but a fine woman like ivanka, come on. >> anyway, let's bring in the roundtable. nita kumar, everyone chess cas chambers, and howard an nbc analyst. talking about the brothers, they're small potatoes. forget jared. just forget jared. now ivanka, don't touch her. what did you make of that. >> disposable, ouch. that was really rough. >> what did he mean? >> the daughter versus the son-in-law? i guess male/female. jared kushner has, his star has dimmed over time. he used to be out front. >> he's doing prison reform. >> he's still doing middle east peace. we haven't seen him nearly as

much. he was out front in the public eye all sorts of times last year. now not so much. >> the west reports excitedly whether they have dinner at different plays. the new israeli restaurant. talking it up. francesca. >> i would agree that it's the boss's daughter. but if i were jared kushner, i would be very concerned by that term when you have the president's lawyer saying you're disposable as you head into this case. you're looking at this russia probe but also the trump tower meeting where the son-in-law was there, the son of the president was there and paul manafort. we know what happened to paul manafort and we sure know what happened to steve bannon after he insulted the president's son. that leaves jared hanging. > all the romanovs died together. >> i'm not touching that with a ten-foot pole. >> i don't think there's a privileged position for the first daughter. >> nor a joking about kushner deciding to study prison reform right now. >> like he might need it.

go on. >> well, what should we talk about. >> rudy guiliani i covered when i he was mayor. >> is he bringing lights or heat or what? >> well, since you mentioned hyman roth in the catskills they have a guy called a tumbler whose job is to mix things up, get out ahead of the parade and mess things up. there's a serious point rudy is making. basically what he's doing is the low ball strategy of going after the legitimacy of the entire investigation. and that's what they're reduced to now. as the investigation gets closer to don junior and jared and michael cohen, the people truly in the inner circle with donald trump, donald trump is feeling the heat. the only answer he's going to have is to somehow try to discredit legally or constitutionally the entire investigation. rudy is the rough version that have message talking about storm troopers and so forth. you're going to hear that consistently from here on.

>> trash talk. francesco, why the trash talk and why bring down the whole level -- it is like a beatup owed car crashing into a flu car. mueller looks like a new car. they bringing this jalopy, giuliani, and he goes charging into the new car. metaphors here. >> this is what the president has been doing this entire time trying to undermine comey's credibility. he started to move in that territory with the special counsel earlier this year. now he's sending in giuliani. >> he calls comey perverted. i can't figure that one out. >> you're asking as if he was first choice. let's not forget how many attorneys turned down donald trump. this is the guy he got. a guy like himself. this is a guy who he tried to join the administration and turned down for. >> turned down for secretary of state. >> didn't get the job offers. donald trump wanted another attorney and he got rudy guiliani. >> i think he picked somebody

like himself. >> i think that's exactly right. in some ways rudy guiliani makes donald trump look demure. right now, that's his job. his job is to go out and call the names perverted storm trooper, et cetera that even donald trump is hesitant about. >> "the new york times" points out mr. jew has been something of a loose cannon not used to having his words carefully managed. i think we made that point. this whoa question of rudy's charge it was his boss paying his lawyer on the sly so he wouldn't have to admit he had the relationship with that that woman. >> campaign experts say he opened up a whole. >> what's the violation. >> if it benefits him during the campaign. it's not about campaign money. >> are candidates allowed to give all he wants to the campaign. >> he has to report it though. >> president trump did not

report that. >> i've been in this business a long time. those kind of stories made page 5 or 57 but they don't report something. >> what he was doing -- what rudy jas doing last night was take -- i've talked to people close to this thing is to take pressure off michael cohen. they're worried about cohen flipping. if it was just michael cohen's money, it's michael who would have been exposed. this is like a house where there's fire breaking out everywhere. they wanted to tamp out the michael cohen fire and keep michael cohen on board. in the process of keeping michael cohen on board, they put trump in jeopardy for what i agree is not the thing that brings him down one way or the other. >> i think the comey thing is just as important. this is people are saying obstruction of justice. is that obstruction of justice? why did he fire james comey? >> he said it was because he wouldn't clear him publicly of being a target. did he clear him privately of being a target. >> he said even hillary clinton got that. >> but these changing explanations are very

problematic for the white house in terms of why. then we heard sarah sanders say today and this was played earlier, this is really extraordinary he doesn't have to have any justification whatsoever and he has the right to fire and hire anybody for any reason he wants to. that's definitely something that i would imagine -- >> how much of is just working the refs? because two things he said since this morning on "fox & friends." he said this thing's going to be over with. he said basically it's going to be over with and there's no collusion. there is collusion. we just heard from michael. they believe there's stuff there. why is giuliani saying these conclusive remarks? >> because he's playing the loose cannon bad cop call it what you will. >> i thought donald trump was playing that. >> to set up whatever negotiation will be. politically, i think donald trump's willing to take the risk that if they try to impeach him or indict him for firing comey, that politically, that will be a winner for him. he's willing to take that risk.

that's why they're going after comey, hammer and tong every day, the book, the money, the name calling. >> pervert. >> if that is bob mueller's chief example of obstruction of justice. >> i think you're on to something. i think that's the story. the roundtable will stick with us. up next, these three will tell me something else i don't know. you're watching "hardball." ♪ oh you're simply the best ♪ better than all the rest ♪ better than anyone ♪ anyone i've ever met ♪ i'm stuck on your heart, the best just got bigger. ♪ i hang on every word you say applebee's new bigger bolder grill combos. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. my mom washes the dishes... ...before she puts them in the dishwasher. so what does the dishwasher do?

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move, chris. he will be in texas speaking to the national rifle association meeting. he was the first president several dangds to do so last year. and tomorrow, he'll be speaking there again. the was asked whether it was insensitive after parkland. they think it's fine. this is an important convention for him ahead of the midterm elections. >> howard. >> we've been talking about rudy guiliani. i've been doing reporting on the other lawyer here, emmet flood brought in from williams & connolly. if rudy's a loose cannon, this guy is a laser beam. but he'll make the same argument rudy made which is the investigation in its entirety is out of control and unconstitutional. >> thank you. when we return, let me finish tonight with trump watch. you're watching "hardball." once there was an organism so small

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3rd, 2018. there is nobody in america who didn't think the president had the fair with a porn star. i doubt there's anybody in america who didn't think the president had michael cohen pay off the porn star. well that quote in today's west attributed to a former trump advisor who remains close to the white house tells us as much about what we need to know about

the decision by the president's new attorney rudolph giuliani to offer the blunt confession that it was donald trump himself who paid the 130,000nd hush money to film actor stormy daniels. so this is how things work in today's presidential politics. you wait till even your biggest fans know it was you. then you admit it was you. you deny, deny, deny till the denials don't work. then you offer up the obvious confession. this gives you the soft landing that avoids the kind of loud noise you cause if you tell the truth when the story first breaks. now that we've gotten the confession, it's worth giving it a listen. what giuliani is admitting is that donald trump funneled that $130,000 to seal the nondisclosure deal with stormy daniels within a few days of the 2016 election so as not to throw trump's chances overboard. whether intended as a campaign contribution or not, imagine the electoral consequences if a week before the election in november of 2016 this woman had appeared

on television with a colorful description of her sexual relationship with mr. trump. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. all in with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> michael cohen is a very talented lawyer. >> the president's legal problems grow exponentially. >> and the white house scram bes to explain rudy guiliani's stormy daniels admission. >> they funneled through a law firm. funneled through a law if i recall and the rez repaid it. >> tonight the latest trump world excuse for firing james comey inside the trump lee strategy with the president's informal legal adviser victoria toensing and the tortured relationship between the trump white house and the truth. >> how are the american people to trust or believe what is said here or what is said by the president. >> "all in" starts right now. >> we give the very best information that we