joining us, host of a.m. joy. and mark from the national urban league. >> black america.org. >> a good report. thank you for doing it. that wraps up this hour. thank you for watching. i'm back tonight. "deadline white house" with nicolle wallace starts right now. /s >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. rudy giuliani's turn in the center ring of donald trump's three-ring legal circus hit a spectacular speed bump today with the president blaming rudy's learning curve for what he describes as rudy getting some facts wrong. >> i'll tell you what, rudy is a great guy, but he just started a day ago. but he really has his heart into it. he's working hard. he's learning the subject matter. and he's going to be issuing a statement, too. but he is a great guy. he started yesterday.

he'll get his facts straight. he's a great guy. i will tell you this. i will tell you this. when rudy made the statements -- rudy's great, but rudy just started and he wasn't totally familiar with everything. and rudy, we love rudy. he's a special guy. what he really understand, this is a witch hunt. he understands that probably better than anybody. >> so much love for rudy. but it's unclear which facts the president believes giuliani doesn't have straight. the president's comments come as the political and legal repercussions from rudy giuliani's stunning admission wednesday night that donald trump repaid his fixer, michael cohen, the hush money for porn star stormy daniels continue to roil his white house and muddy serious legal concerns about campaign finance violations and the firing of jim comey. legal experts telling the washington post, giuliani's media blitz might have back fired giving investigators new leads to chase and new evidence

of potential crimes. in an effort to calm the waters, giuliani told nbc confidently, you're not going to see any daylight between the president and me. we're going to work hard to have a consistent strategy. but even that clean up message had to be clarified today with a statement that makes us wonder if he understands what the definition of clarifying means. here to help us understand the day's developments with us in the white house, nbc's peter alexander. washington post reporter barrett. frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant in counter intelligence. donny deutsche. this day woke up to front page stories in "the new york times," washington post, today show appearances. everyone talking about the mess, the legal mess, not just the p.r. debacle that you guys have been dealing with mano a mano with sarah huckabee sanders in the briefing room, but the rudy

giuliani tour de force may have caused the president this week. >> the last 24 hours rudy giuliani said there was no daylight between him and the president. i think it's hard to see the daylight when you're under a bus. that's the way giuliani must have felt a matter of hours ago. the president effectively overruling his new lawyer, undercutting rudy giuliani who joined his team a couple weeks ago basically saying, i love the guy, buzz he doesn't know what he's talking about right now. i mean in effect, he simply doesn't have his facts right at this point. the president, of course, as you saw over the course of this day, he immediately walked out to reporters after he was going to head off to dallas today, made these points about rudy giuliani. railed about other topics you'll talk about as well, when he landed on marine one at joint base andrews, he kept going, kept talking and frankly came back to talk to reporters on air force one as well. so it's clear he's chatty about

this topic as if he sort of wants to rewrite, to erase the last 48 hours. this is a president bhos dissatisfied with his chief of staff, flankly was rudy giuliani spoke without anyone at the white house knowing the strategy he and the president concocted. it's clear the president feels he's not his best spokesperson on topics that relate to policy, but on topics that relate to his legal strategy as well basically saying, i'm going to handle this for the moment. in terms of clarity, right now we are still looking for a giuliani statement nbc news received later in today. he said as for the idea of timing when the president learned about -- first became aware about this payment via michael cohen to stormy daniels, giuliani said, i can't speak for the president. i can only speak about my own understanding, but didn't elaborate beyond that. and he said again as he said before, this was not a campaign violation. that the money would have been paid whether or not there was a campaign. but that's something that he had

muddled hours earlier. imagine how that would have benefited information just days before the election. as we end the week, we start with no better clarity than we had a couple days ago. a frank figliuzzi, i want to ask you about the fog machine as a legal and political strategy because it's been posited to me that this is such a bleep show, it can't be by design. and others have said this is such a spectacular display of organized chaos, that it must be designed to distract from something else. what does an investigator -- what do you make of the last 48 hours if you're investigating michael cohen, if you have enough suspicion, enough probable cause to raid his home and his offices and to take literally everything, all of his work product, and if you're under investigation in the way we know donald trump's white

house to be? >> so, look. it's my assertion that we're not watching anything that's designed. this is, indeed, legal chaos. and here's why. rudy giuliani has harmed the president, and his correction today was not a correction. so, if i'm sitting back on mueller's team and watching all of this play out, my assertion is that rudy giuliani just made himself a fact witness because he is now coming out and saying, well, i really didn't mean that part about the president generally understanding that michael generally takes care of such things, and so there is this retainer from which he will take care of whatever i need to pay him. and, you know, i haven't disclosed it on my financial disclosure form as i'm required to do by the ethics in government act. now i want to bring in rudy and i want to sit him down and say what was your understanding that

caused you to say all this to sean hannity, who made you correct yourself and what part of that is the truth? as an investigator you're loving this. you want it to play out, you hope everybody is on tv all day and you're taking the statements and applying it to the law. >> devin, you report this with your colleagues. i want to read another piece from the reporting that i quoted in the lead. you report, giuliani made assertions that investigators can now check against what they've already learned, just as frank said, from documents and witnesses, legal analysts said, his comments to media outlets draw. it prentsz a legal problem for the president that his own lawyer may have exacerbated. that is exactly what frank just described. and that seems to be very much on the minds of folks in this white house. >> right. what we're hearing is there is a lot of concern about giuliani's statements in the last two days. and you see in this written statement that he's just issued, he's trying to clean this up. but there is a basic problem that may not be fixable here,

which is that giuliani said multiple times, first to the washington post and then i believe in an interview with nbc as well subsequently, that he -- in which he describes conversations and back and forths with the president about what the president knew and when. i have spoken to a number of lawyers who argue that that is a potential waiver of attorney/client privilege by giuliani and to frank's point earlier, you know, we may not get there ultimately, but that is some very questionable lawyering based on any expert you talk to. and, again, the problem that the white house has and frankly it's been expressed to us privately, is that they seem to be in worse shape since giuliani started talking. >> so, peter, let me just also bring you in on what i'm sure you're picking up. i picked this up in my conversations every day from folks in the white house and people -- the president's allies outside the white house speak to this concern about the cohen

raid and cohen's precarious legal position. i think that's a fair way to describe it. >> sure. >> rudy said, i wanted get out in front of the special counsel and the southern district because at some point they would realize this information and leak it. i was on brian williams' program and i said there was no way there was a strategy to that performance on hannity. and i was immediately told by two sources close to rudy that it was ab -- what i just read was absolutely the strategy. that suggests you can put tooth paste back in the tube. whatever it is they seized from cohen's offices is already in the possession of the fbi. and this idea that they're getting ahead of something, he seems to have set the president back. and the white house did not make many qualms or many efforts to try to dispel the notion that they know that. >> i think you're right. one reason it's hard for the white house, the staff here, the communications team to respond to what the president and rudy giuliani are doing is because they were entirely left out of the loop of what the president

and rudy giuliani were doing. they were watching in real-time as this week has played out. what is particularly striking as the week comes to a close to me is this is just reinforcing a narrative that we have witnessed over the course of this presidency where the president, when he sees something routinely on television or in the newspapers that he doesn't like, he tries to clean it up really quickly, tries to muddy the waters and fix that problem, but repeatedly when he tries to fix the problem in front of him, he creates for him more problems. and i think that is exactly what rudy giuliani and the president have done this week. thinking, all right, if they got this information about my relationship to michael cohen, the retainer, my knowledge of this payment or at least the fact i was connected to the pavement, let's try to deal with that before it comes out elsewhere. but in doing so they have just exacerbated as you noted in the reporting from the washington post, this issue more broadly. and right now as they head into the weekend, the president, nicolle, at the end of the day the president didn't give us any better clarity about what the real story is right now. the president said at one point,

he said, i didn't change my story. he said go back and see what i said. we went back to see what he said. on april 5th last month on the plane about the stormy daniels payment he said do you have any knowledge of the payment, he said no. it's pretty simple. he said it would be simple to see exactly what happened. that is exactly what happened and he can't give us any better clarification on what is so simple that we're not understanding. >> all right. so, not for nothing, donny deutsche, the president successfully recruited into the white house a highly regarded attorney this week who was supposed to bring some order to the president's legal predicament as it pertains to the mueller probe. it is abundantly clear and more clear by the hour that the president is far more worried about what his friend, your friend, michael cohen, has on him. >> yeah, i spoke to michael cohen yesterday. when giuliani came out, i said to michael, what do you make of it? he goes, he doesn't know what he's talking about. trump came out today and said the same thing. and giuliani said the same thing. i find it interesting the great

guy giuliani trump talks about, this is the same guy two days ago compared the fbi people who give their lives to our country to nazis. where michael cohen, who basically is the target of investigation, when the fbi showed up at his place, he said they conducted themd selves professionally and he thanked them. you have the former u.s. district attorney, the president of the united states, continually tripping over each other, drooling on each other, contradicting each other. you have michael cohen disciplined who is a target here and not doing anything. i find there is an irony there. >> can i push back on disciplined? it doesn't look like he was always a disciplined attorney and that's why he's under scrutiny by the fbi. >> i'm talking about right now in this situation. >> now that he knows he's a target who had his office and home raided. >> president trump knows, too. two people know everything, donald trump and myself. that's going to come out. i find if anybody has any

question why giuliani is involved in this and the thought process 4i7d behind it, knowing donald, knowing his management style, i'm sure it was a momentary either giuliani called him, you know, you need tough guys out there. trump got pissed at one of his lawyers and that's the way he makes these decisions. for giuliani to say he's a rookie, he doesn't have all the facts. wet behind the ears, just out of ford ham law school. it's preposterous. i predict giuliani will be out in two weeks. this is the beginning of what will be a continued circus of t stupidity and we'll watch it unfold. >> is michael cohen in a position to know what is next for him? >> no. i spent a lot of time. look, i really haven't done anything wrong. i don't know what they're coming with. we will find out -- >> he believes he hasn't done anything wrong. will he cooperate with prosecutors? >> here's what i think. michael still has a very deep emotional connection to the president and the family. i think that would be his last

resort. >> i think mike flynn did, too. >> i do think -- i don't know this as a fact. i just think -- if michael cohen is ever confronted with any serious, serious jail time and it's his family or anybody else's, he's going to do what's right for his family as well as he should. whether it's donald trump or barack obama or anybody else. which then brings me back to why is -- that is the one guy, if i am donald trump, i'm worried about. and donald trump, i don't know what the strategy is, i don't know what the thought process is, but donald trump will do something. michael goes, i don't understand it. it's like donald trump is self-destructing. so michael still n his gut, is incredibly loyal and trump has not understood that or has underestimated that or people whispering in his ear. or maybe donald trump knows the bodies -- doesn't know where the bodies are buried. none of it makes sense. >> frank figliuzzi, do you believe that these are the actions that a man like rudy giuliani takes as sort of a hail mary, thinking a man like michael cohen may be about to

sort of release himself from -- i understand they're sort of defending some of the same things in court right now. that they're in court alongside one another in the southern district. do these actions by rudy giuliani suggest that he's concerned that mr. cohen might be about to sort of worry about just himself and his own family? >> it's possible, remotely possible that this is some method of communicate ing with cohen via television. everybody is afraid everybody is wired up and they want to send a message to cohen, we've got your back. we're going to come up with this plausible explanation that you've been paid off through your retainer. that you did nothing wrong. we don't see any violation here. but i've got to tell you, i think we're giving rudy too much credit. i think there is a way to communicate with cohen's attorney to get that message to him if you want to. so, i just think we see giuliani coming off the rails. and i think what we're witnessing is the dilemma and challenges of anyone trying to represent the president when they simply don't know the truth

themselves and what the president is going to say or not say on any given day. and i'm with the rest of the panel. i think giuliani, his days are numbered. they're not -- he's not going to hang around very long. >> we forget what giuliani was like during the campaign. he was unhinged. he didn't get a job. amica was talking about he said to joe and mika -- this is a year later. i don't think his meds have kicked in. i think maybe he's -- >> i want to ask you to sort of pull back the lens a little bit on what cohen represents. he seems to and talks with this white house, represent an existential threat that in a bar cz -- bizarre way and rattles them on even the russia investigation. the common denominator in the departures of john dowd and ty cobb and all these lawyers who have come through the revolving door is they have a client that

doesn't listen to them. for cohen's concern, donald trump hasn't wasted any time. they are hatching legal and p.l. strategy on their own undercutting the entire white house staff. what do you think that says about the threat they think cohen represents to this president and his presidency? >> well, look, he's the president's lawyer, right? so obviously there is sort of an almost instinctive sense that if cohen were to, as donny described, were to decide in the best interest of my family, i have to start talking to the prosecutors, you know, that that would be a bad, bad thing for the president. that's just a sense. i don't think anyone has great fact basis to back that sense up yet. but that's clearly the sense of a lot of people. and, look, part of the issue here is that some people are trying to solve this -- all these problems politically. and those people are making things legally worse at times. and, you know, you need a smart lawyer and probably multiple smart lawyers to try and

navigate those two forces, those two pressures in a process like this. and to everyone's point, you know, they don't seem to have a great team, a great group of humans who can navigate that. and obviously the client is a big part of that issue. so, i do think that there is this general sense of alarm and frustration and we're at the, you know, we're at the stage where someone is occasionally screaming, pull a lever, push a button. but that's not how you're going to land this plane. so i do think there is a sense of alarm and it's chaotic, it's bumpy. >> it is. it's like a break last moment. happy to have you. congrats on the great reporting. >> thank you. >> when we come back, the president's war on special counsel bob mueller continues as his lawyers brace for a subpoena. also ahead, we go inside the white house war on truth and show you how some unlikely critics of the president have had enough with the latest round of lies. and all the president's

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xfinity. the future of awesome. you have a group of investigators and they say that i am not a target, and i'm not a target. but you have a group of investigators that are all democrats, in some cases they went to the hillary clinton celebration that turned out to be a funeral. but you have all these investigators. they're democrats. in all fairness, bob mueller worked for obama for eight years. i have to find that we're going to be treated fairly -- wait, wait. i have to find that we're going to be treated fairly because

everybody sees it now and it is a pure witch hunt. right now it's a pure witch hunt. why don't we have republicans looking also? why aren't we having republican people doing what all these democrats are doing? it is a very unfair thing. >> we have to live in the moment, dude, and you've got republicans running your justice department, running your fbi. what was that? i'm sorry, i was supposed to have a relationship with the teleprompter here. guy the triggered. his name is robert mueller. that was the president's daily russia investigation tantrum. rudy giuliani puts the odds at 50/50 that mueller will subpoena the president telling abc news, i've got to prepare for that 50%. you betcha, rudy. joining the table with me and donny, mara gay, veteran journalist e evan mcmullen ci ericsson operative who ran for president as an independent, and rev al sharpton, host of

politics nation here on nbc. this has to trigger any law enforcement official to hear a republican president saying i need to be investigated by republicans then the deck will be stacked in my favor. what an offensive and revolting thing to say. >> i wonder if he thinks bob mueller should have quit when a democrat was elected president. what gets me, nicolle, is there are people watching these statements and going, yep, that's right, that's right. it's all democrats. and they simply don't do their homework and understand this is all spin. spin is the kindest word i can think of to describe this. >> peter alexander, it's worse than spin. it's b.s. because no one gets sharper attacks from the president than republican men who appointed the department of justice and the deputy attorney general. that is a shocking thing to hear come out of the mouth. why can't i be investigated by republicans. well, you don't like the republicans that run the justice

department, that you picked. >> no, i think you're exactly right. as you note, the fierce criticism this president has had of people that he put in place. jeff sessions and rod rosenstein, but about that criticism, the fierce criticism he had of the special counsel robert mueller, he said, you know, people don't realize this, but bob mueller worked for obama eight years . we should correct the record for those watching, that is not true. he served for president obama less than five years. he's a republican who was appointed by a republican president, george bush. the president is exciciting fac that aren't true to prove his point. people agree with the president, which is the very same reason the key qualification for rudy giuliani and bringing him on board was not that he knew all the facts because the president said he's still learning all the facts. the qualification was that he agrees with me that this is a witch hunt. >> you know, evan mcmullan, i think there is something so

profoundly disturbing about this frame, and i don't think we should gloss over this and speed ahead and get back to whether or not he sits down with bob mueller. but the frame we should all stare at, the forest -- we shouldn't get lost staring at the trees in front of our face. he got exactly what he described to the "the new york times," he wants his guys, his roy cohn running the department of justice. it was clear before he was sworn in that was the kind he wanted at the intelligence -- running the intelligence community, too. he thought they were straacked against him because they were briefing him on a dossier with incriminating information against him. these institutions are supposed to be built around and propelled forward by the rule of law. >> well, it's a morale killer. i can tell you in my conversations with members of those communities, they're sort of bewildered. they've never served in an environment like this where they've been attacked by the

president. they serve because they want to protect the rule of law, they want to protect americans. they frankly dee spies politics. they don't want to be involved. it's not something they're interested in. they want to serve and uphold the rule of law and to be attacked like this, for their service to be politicized is something that hurts morale. let me be clear. when the president does this, effectively what the president is saying he doesn't want an actual department of justice. he doesn't want an actual criminal justice system. he wants a phony department of justice that protects him and that goes after his political rivals. that is exactly what you'll find in any third-rate, third world dictatorship, banana republic around the world. that is not what we can allow the country to become. he wants to protect himself. that is not in our interest. >> frank figliuzzi, he wanted the white house to back him up in not revealing a document he

had grave concerns about that detailed the fisa court process, the secret most incorruptible part of the way we gather information on people that we're afraid may do our country harm. the president said, nah, i'm going to go with devin nunes. the isn't making some progress in moving toward that evan just described? >> just when we think we see hints of progress, we have a statement or a tweet the next day that tells us, no, the progress isn't being made. evan is right. the president defines justice as whatever is good for him, whatever is right for him and his circle, he doesn't get it. he doesn't want to get it. and i'm increasingly fearful for bob mueller and for rosenstein. i do think they need protection. i do think that we're just a bad day away from president trump trying to remove one or both of them and it's just a matter of time before that happens. >> peter alexander, let me give you the last word on that. does the white house have any understanding, not the people that stand at the podium with

whatever they're sent out there to say to you, but do people like don mcgahn and emmet flood, new to this white house team, do they have any understanding of how offensive it is to the career professionals at these agencies when the president goes out and says, why not get a gang of republicans who are, you know, maga dudes to investigate me? it's a galling thing to hear. >> yeah, sure, but what can they do about it is one of the biggest challenges. >> they can quit. there are lots of things they can do. >> you're right, that's true, they could quit, which raises an interesting point. emmet flood is on his way in right now. you can imagine element flood the same day it was announced he would be joining the president's team and replacing ty cobb seeing this back and forth, first rudy giuliani and then the president. they could, a lot of these individuals and we haven't spoken to emmet flood. it will be interesting to see what we hear from him over the days ahead. a lot of them think they were sort of the buffer for the president gentzler these actions right now. don mcgahn, in fact, sort of

standing in the way of the president's effort to fire jeff sessions months ago. at the end of the day right now it's the president who is driving this train and i've got to tell you based on the conversations i have with those who work inside this west wing, a lot of them feel like they are witnesses to this in the fact they have no control of it. >> and literally, many of them are witnesses in the mueller investigation. peter alexander and frank figliuzzi, thank you for spending time with us. we're grateful. when we come back has the president's affinity for alternative facts and outright lies stripped the staff of credibility? to be blunt, what took so long? you totanobody's hurt, new car. but there will still be pain. it comes when your insurance company says they'll only pay three-quarters of what it takes to replace it. what are you supposed to do? drive three-quarters of a car? now if you had liberty mutual new car replacement™,

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it's heartbreaking to see all these trees dying. what guides me is ensuring that the public is going to be safer and that these forests can be sustained and enjoyed by the community in the future. let me be clear, mr. president. how can you drain the swap of if you're the one who keeps muddying the waters? you didn't know about that $130,000 payment to a porn star

until you did. said you knew nothing about how your former lawyer, michael cohen, handled this, until acknowledging today you were the guy behind the retainer payment that took care of this. i'm just having a devil of a time figuring out which news is right. i guess you're too busy draining the swamp to stop and smell the stink you're creating. that's your doing. that's your stink. mr. president, that's your swamp. >> wow! >> go neil. >> good on you, my friend. good on you. even though folks at fox are at a breaking point, quote, mr. trump is compiling a record that increases the likelihood that few will believe him during a genuine crisis. he should worry that americans will stop believing anything he says. the panel is still here. mara. >> you know what, listen, all jokes aside, some of us never thought we'd see the day. this is really important because i think we've gotten to a really

scary point where americans believe news based on the source, where it's coming from, and the politics are so bitter and tribal that there are a lot of people who watch fox or read "the wall street journal" alone and for them to see and read that is extremely important. i think we're at a point where those organizations need to define themselves as the media institutions that they are, right, particularly fox news. >> yeah. >> and not as a propaganda arm. and this is encouraging because i think it does feel in the past several weeks like we've hit -- something has changed and i think we're seeing that in the behavior from some of the trump aides. >> what's remarkable to me is that neil cavuto, chuck smith, a handful of others looked in the mirror and said the truth matters more than loyalty to the family as comey describes it --

who have a commercial interest, i might add. it is dangerous for these hosts to stand up to the president. they found religion truth faster than any of the republicans in congress. >> i think that is very significant. and i think when you look at the fact that as we said, the president is undermining with the whole judicial system ought to be. some people are saying, wait a minute. i don't mind leaning toward my political preference, but i'm not going to give up my integrity and the fact that i have been a journalist all my life and worked for this and just turn into an outright -- >> propaganda. >> yeah, propaganda. at what point does your own self-respect come in. forget politics and your own integrity. i think that's what's happening to some of the people on the right, saying i'm not willing to compromise looking in the mirror at who i am now. and i think that that's the biggest problem with the megalow

maniac. he expects everybody to defer their own personal self-image and self-respect in order to just fold into whatever he's saying. and i think that's where this giuliani stuff comes from. they figured out that it was going to come out either with the paper trail with mueller or that michael cohen may tell them about the payments. and rudy just went out there trying to get ahead of the story with an alibi, covering his client that he got bogled up. it was clearly a strategy to deal with what inevitably was coming out anyway. all rudy was doing, which is why trump said he's a good guy. >> i love him, i love him. >> i believe he was put there to try to give a narrative to what they know was getting ready to come out anyway. >> nicolle, this is so much bigger than fox or media. 3,000 lies into trump, washington post, i have two little kids, you have a son at home. the bottom line of basic humanity, we'll accept anything,

don't lie. tell the truth. >> we'll forgive anything. >> that's it. what concerns me as trump's numbers go up, he's now at 42, 43. in the school yards and if he wins, wins means gets reelected -- you know, we are basically not only normalizing lying, we're basically saying that's the winning formula. and it is a very big societal thing. >> let me illustrate your point, donny. let me show you what's happening in the briefing room. i think the clients of the official statements -- this is a country with a podium that delivers news. we have been sort of held up in the past as a beacon of having a free press and not state-run propaganda, but that seemed to change this week. let's talk about this. >> when the president so often says things that turn out not to be true, when the president and the white house show what appears to be a blatant disregard for the truth, how are the american people to trust or

believe what is said here or what is said by the president? >> we give the very best information that we have at the time. i do that every single day and will continue to do that every day i'm in this position. >> why can't you answer yes or no whether you were in the dark? i think it's a fairly simple question -- >> i think it's fairly simple answer i've given you. i have the best information i have, i'm going to do my best to do that every single day. >> that was explained to me by a senior white house official just before i came on the air who said there is still a lot of support in the building for sarah huckabee sanders because she's dealing with a president who sometimes has multiple versions of the truth in his own head when he gives information to his advisors. >> yeah, i think that's true. but listen, the president has been lying to the american people for years now. as a candidate, now president. none of that -- >> as a businessman, his birther movement. >> exactly. it's been going on for a long time. you sort of have to step back and ask yourself, okay, what's new now? i'd like to build on some of

mara's comments which i agree with. what's happening now is those who follow this presidency and politics on a day to day hour to hour, minute to minute basis, increasingly, even if you're on the right, like the rev said, i'm willing to lean a little bit towards my guy, it's the party, all that. there is a growing sense among those who watch this presidency closely that this is not going to end well. the trump/republican experiment is not going to end well. in fact, it is racing towards disaster. and because of that, i think there's less of a willingness -- there should have never been a willingness at all, but there is less of a willingness of some on the right to go along with the lies whereas they might have been willing to do it previously. it's different now. >> i agree. there is also something kind of spectacular and not in a good way frankly about watching a lie unfold in a 24-hour news cycle because -- >> fall apart. >> fall apart, right. it's just -- it's so offensive

to the american people. what it suggests to me among many other things is that we're watching a number of people -- and it's not just the president. it's some of those around him. and i would include rudy giuliani in this. they clearly are used to getting away with a lot. they're used to having complete impunity and that could be legally, morally or otherwise. and they are daring the american people and the institutions to stop them. >> but i think the gravity of it is what is disturbing a lot of people because you're not just talking about guys that are lying or half lying. you're talking about people that run the country. so, when somebody sits and says, as you say, nicolle, quoting someone saying the president has three different versions of something, you're talking about the president of the united states. there are no three different versions. it's the truth or a lie. and you can't come with oh, i thought this -- you know good and well whether you did a

payoff or not. >> let me ask you something. >> there's no three versions to that. >> does he? does he? >> yeah, he does. he does. >> i was told in a polygraph he could pass lying his you know what off. >> that only makes you a good liar. it dudsant mean you didn't know you were lying. there are some people who can pass a polygraph lying. they're good liars. >> i spent a lot of time with him. i think he's one of those guys that lies and then says the lie seven times over and then it becomes his truth. >> it's still a lie. >> but i think at some point he actually owns it as the truth. he's a blatant liar. we know that. i think that's the pathos that goes on. >> all we need to do is get him on a scale and blow up one of his lies. speaking of lies it may turnout to be one of the most enduring truths of rudy giuliani's big media blitz. he describes the president's son-in-law as a disposable man. he made us wonder who else might fall into that category. as king midas, i expect things to last a looong time.

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i think i would get on my charger and go right into their offices with a lance if they go after ivanka. >> at this point i agree with you. i fear for the country. >> if they do do ivanka, which i doubt they will, the whole country will turn on him. they're going after his daughter? >> what about the son-in-law? >> jared is a fine man, you know that. but men are, you know, disposable. but a fine woman like ivanka? come on. >> the first interview with sean hannity where he talks about what's going through his mind during that. that was an interview full of bizarre moments. >> can we do a special on that? >> i want someone at fox -- i know you're listening just like russia was. release the shots of hannity's face during that interview. look at your presidential medal of freedom. that word disposable men was an

interesting word to use about the president's son-in-law, especially considering how many disposable men we've seen move through donald trump's white house. watch. >> this was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration period. >> i think it's pretty accurate, i'm a street fighter. that's what i am. >> can you address the main headline you called the president a moron? >> i'm not going to deal with petty stuff like that. >> this is gary cohn's last meeting. he may be a globalist, but i still like him. he's not as strong on the tariffs as we want. >> i've seen this guy throw a spiral at a tire. i've seen him in madison square garden. thank you. >> so many disposable men, we couldn't fit them all in, donny. >> first of all, to unpack that is incredible. first of all -- >> give it a shot. >> as far as ivanka, she basically was there on air force

one when that letter was written. she was there the weekend he decided to fire comey. yes, she's his daughter but a close advisor. she is open for business. and as far as calling his son-in-law disposable, you know, that's a harsh word. >> do you think he knows that jared is in some sort of legal trouble we don't know about yet? >> i think they all do. >> that's what's scary. jared is -- >> ivanka, you'll be fine. >> jared, if you're watching, when the subject of an investigation's lawyer says you're disposable, you better run and get a lawyer. i mean, this is not just some guy talking on fox. this is the president's new legal advisor saying he's disposable. i would have to assume if he said that that he's already seen something and they're already giving you up, jared. they told you. >> jared has been nowhere to be seen the last three months, nowhere. >> it's clearly every man and woman for herself at this point. >> a fine woman. fine -- >> and the men are disposable.

i feel like when you watch rudy all week, it's sort of like watching trump during the campaign. it was these kernels that got near a truth that people seized on. that's what propelled him to a victory and helped him build a coalition. that seat felt like the hottest wire he got near. all the men in the president's eyes are disposable. and we've got new reporting that john kelly may be the next one to add to that. 9 president is having general kelly swing in the wind by virtue of allowing individuals to go around him by not including him in the meetings that a normal chief of staff ought to be part of, leon panetta, white house chief of staff under bill clinton who later served as secretary of defense and director of the cia. when you have that kind of erosion of trust taking place it makes it hard for the chief of staff to do the job. it's politico's great reporting. it's not clear that john kelly has actually been functioning if that job for weeks if not months. >> today the president seemed to try to reassure john kelly and the public that his position is safe.

so, who knows. that changes on a daily, hourly basis. but i just have to say, sometimes it's helpful to do this. take a step back to last year, about a year ago when the president was saying things likes, no, there weren't any campaign campaign contacts with russians. now here we are in such a different place where the president's main againdefense l is saying okay, take the son-in-law, but not the daughter. please not the daughter. it's wei it's -- we're in a totally different situation where a loose lipped representative of the president is essentially acknowledging that the president's son-in-law is in deep trouble. if the president's son-in-law is in deep trouble, so is the president. and there is no way the president views jared kushner as disposable. and let me just say absolutely ivanka deserves to be scrutinized. she knows a lot about the president's relationships with russia. and more so than has been exposed or revealed in the press, more of that is coming.

she has to be investigated and she will be. >> so let me back up what you were talking about with more reporting from politico. they write that someone so close to the major events under scrutiny would not be interviewed is unusual. but mueller's decision to steer clear of the first daughter at least for now is a signal of his don't poke the bear until you have to strategy. >> i think actually people feel very rattled. i mean if you are working under the assumption that the folks in the room meaning the president, jared, his other senior aides, people who have been interviewed or subpoenaed by this grand jury, if you are operating under the assumption that something was done improperly or illegally, these are people who are acting guilty. they are acting like they have something to hide and they are kind of freaking out. >> i keep going to what we know. for the first time we saw the

list of questions that bob mueller would want to ask donald trump about. and if you go to the questions about when they found out about mike flynn, she was a senior west wing adviser around the -- during the entire time from which the white house counsel was informed that flynn could be blackmailed by russians until 17 days later or 18 days later when they fired him. we know that he wants to talk about the state of mind around the firing of jim comey. she was certainly around her father during that period. she could be a material witness in the obstruction of justice case. and on collusion, she was around during the campaign. she was at the convention. we know bob mueller wants to ask about the russian platform. she was a chief surrogate. so it seems that she is at best a material fact witness on both the obstruction of justice investigation and the collusion investigation. >> that is all right. and let's be clear, innocent until proven guilty. everybody deserves a fair trial.

what concerns me is there is i believe a concerted effort at chaos, which is trump's specialty. and so i have friends who are not in politics and she said to me in terms of the stormy daniels revelation that rudy giuliani made the other night, well, wait a second, what is illegal there. and so i think they are muddying the waters. i think there is a campaign to attack institutions. and i think it is a really good time to defend our institutions. it is not a good time to rush to judgment, to be unfair to these folks, but a good time to protect the institutions because that is really what we're depending on. >> i think people innocent until proven guilty, but i think the ones that are acting guilty is the president and his defender. you have to remember if you are innocent, you either say this means nothing and you ignore it or you are outrage that had someone would even accuse you.

they are not doing either. they are talking about who is disposable, they are talking about this is a witch hunt. no one is acting like they are insulted or they are above this. >> it actually reminds me of the 24 hour cycle that a losing campaign, political campaign, has. it was this person's fault, that person's fault. >> all right. we're hitting pause. don't go anywhere. we'll sneak in the last break and be right back. time for your business of the week. phillip and vebo don't care if anyone buys anything in their stores. they found a new source of income on. shopper surveillance data. but in the treacherous world of data security and the online assault on brick and mortar retail, will their concept succeed? for more watch "your business" on msnbc. (baby crying) ♪ ♪

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and by the way, kanye west must have some power because you probably saw i doubled my african-american poll numbers. we went from 11 to 22 in one week. thank you, kanye. thank you. >> i got nothing. jump ball. >> sometimes you just have to let art speak for itself. if i would have told you three years ago we'd be talking about kanye west defending donald trump, president of the united states and donald trump then saying he doubled his african-american follower, you'd go wait, is that an episode of -- >> first of all, reuters put out a poll that he went up a little with black men, not black women. >> they have never pollen for him. >> but the quote is even wrong. but you are talking about an artist who says slavery was a choice and you're going to quote him?

the president -- i mean he thinks slavery was a choice. need i say more? so kanye i think we should all pray for. >> well, i got fired from "the view" for not knowing things about people like kanye. >> i think they deserve each other. >> is he off? he's married to a kardashian, right? >> he is spinning out of control even before this latest thing. clearly he's not well. >> i don't know the guy, but there are a small number of african-americans who support the president. usually that is a religious group. this seems to be about something else. >> and the idea that the president -- i mean he's not even trying to make it sound like he's done anything for any part of his coalition, he's just laying it all on a famous person. >> nothing to do with what he's pushing for black americans. it is a guy who just said that slavery was a choice. doubled his numbers.

he doesn't even have enough self force what he's doing in the white house and a rapper doubled my numbers. that's what he thinks of black voters. >> and this is the american presidency in 2018. it is sad. >> it is the week that was. my thanks to you all. that does it for our hour. "mtp daily" starts right now. hi, chuck. >> you know, nicolle, it looks like you've already started happy hour there. donny deutsch is there, happy hour has begun. >> i love that you say it on tv. >> i say it as jealousy. >> no apology needed. >> there you go. hey, it is 5:00 somewhere and guess what it is 5:00 right now. trump in trouble he is? >> tonight trust fall. >> you know, what learn before you speak. takes lot easier.