>> i think she's still happy to live on for mollie because mollie didn't get that chance. >> that's all for this edition of "dateline." i'm craig melvin. thank you for watching. good morning, i'm dara brown in new york at msnbc headquarters 7:00 in the even, 4:00 out west. here's what's happened. when did trump know? new reporting says the president knew about the alleged hush money paid to stormy daniels months before this denial. >> did you know about the $130,000 -- >> how president trump is handling damage control following rudy giuliani's admissions to the payout. plus, back fire, giuliani's attempt to clarify the statements made expose president trump to even more legal risk? and midterm predictions, why you should pay attention to who

comes out on top on tuesday's primaries but we begin with two big stories shedding light on the length michael cohen went to protect them and at what point the president found out about alleged hush money payments like the one to stormy daniels. "the wall street journal" reports federal prosecutors and the fbi are looking into the two lines of credit cohen took out as the 2016 election heated you. public records show the combined loans gave him access to as much as $774,000. meanwhile, two people familiar with the payment arrangement to stormy daniels tell "the new york times" that president trump knew about it months before he denied it to reporters on air force one last month. although it was not immediately clear exactly when the president learned of the payment. democratic congressman eric swalwell last night. >> i think we can assume he may

be lying to us about what happened with the russians prior before and after the election. >> for more on this, here is nbc's peter alexander. >> reporter: president trump overruling his new lawyer. >> rudy is a great guy, but he just started a day having. >> reporter: undercutting it. >> rudy knows it's a witch hunt. he started yesterday. he'll get his facts straight. >> reporter: giuliani revealed that mr. trump reimbursed michael cohen for hush payment to stormy daniels. >> everything has been said incorrectly. it's been said wrong. i said, you know what, learn before you speak. it's a lot easier had. >> reporter: but the president only implicacombli complicated matter. >> you go back and take a look. >> reporter: we did, here he is last month. >> did you know about the

$130,000? >> no. >> reporter: giuliani issuing a clarification on his suggestion to daniels was politically motivated. >> imagine that came out on october 15th. >> sure. >> in the middle of the last debate. >> reporter: now insisting it would have been paid whether he was a candidate or not to protect the president's family against a false allegation. as to when president trump became aware of the payment, giuliani was less clear saying he could only speak to his own understanding of the matter. the president said he's open to an interview with special counsel robert mueller. >> if i thought it was there, i would override my lawyer. >> reporter: in fact, mueller's a republican. the federal judge is fiercely criticizing mueller's team for its team against former campaign chairman paul manafort. arguing prosecutors really care about getting information from manafort that would lead to the impeachment of president trump. the president on friday also speaking at the nra convention,

renewing his controversial calls to arm teachers. and promising to back gun owners. the president said he was willing on take on the nra. dara. >> peter alexander, thank you. let's bring in julie manchester reporting for the hill. and john farrenella. john, the president only recently found out about the payments to stormy daniels? >> oh, what a tangled web we weave. you know, it's amazing and impossible to reconcile what we've heard from president trump and what we've heard from rudy giuliani at first, and then at second, and then at third and then saat fourth. the problem for the president

his public regulatilations and strategy are at odds with each other. it becomes difficult for rudy giuliani to stay things in public about this that end upholding up to public scrutiny. and also don't get the president in further legal jeopardy. but, you know, i don't think anybody who believes that the president paid money to stormy daniels through michael cohen is surprised by the news that he knew about it, before he said he knew about it. >> all right. there's pretty much no surprise there. >> and julie, two people close to the president told "the new york times" he was disbelieved with how rudy giuliani connected himself and he was also unhappy with sean hannity with the terms that he used to describe stormy daniels. julia, is there a sense of what the strategy is for the legal team? >> right, to jonathan's point the legal strategy and public relations strategy completely

contradict each other, at least they appear to. during the interview with sean hannity, it's interesting. sean hannity is very close to the white house. some people have called him the unofficial chief of staff. he's frequently on the phone with the president and frequently visits the white house. his reaction, during the interview was, oh, really? i didn't know that. >> so that, i think, definitely caught the president off guard. and it definitely made it seem like this wasn't land. and that giuliani was very much off the cuff. so, it's interesting to see how all of this has been playing out in that way and it's interesting to see how this has been playing out with giuliani as well. after 9/11, i think giuliani had a ton of credibility with the american people who was close to the intelligence community. he was known as america's mayor. but over this past week, it seems like that's kind of all worn off. and he's contradicting the

president. and it's just -- it's a very weird public relations strategy. >> weird and interesting. okay. two key points there. jonathan, now according to "washington post," sarah huckabee sanders told her colleagues that giuliani's interview left her in an untenable position. jonathan how much of a hit has she taken all week in terms of her credibility and sanders explanation that she, quote, gives the best information when it's available. is that enough? >> so, first of all, it's not surprising that she thinks she's in an untenable position. she essentially was benched in terms of rudy giuliani taking over the public relations strategy. at least for the last few days on this matter. i'm not sure she should be upset about that. it is probably better not to be the person on this particular thing. sarah says what she is told to say. and doesn't say what she's told not to say.

and that way, she's doing the job that the president wants her to do. and, you know, if the -- the question is, and was, i believe, whether she's lost some credibility in this regard. i don't think she's lost any credibility this week in particular. i'm not sure that many people expect her to go outside of the boundaries that the president has gone. >> julia, interesting, do you think this is different from previous stories of the white house in disarray? >> not necessarily. one story that comes -- or one incident that comes to mind is actually the anthony scaramucchi interview that he gave to the "new yorker" if we talk about public relations. we saw after that report that the president was happy that anthony scaramucchi stuck it to them. and after that, rolled that back. we saw conflicting reports about how the president felt about giuliani.

some felt he could have felt comfortable with the interview. but he clearlies that walked that back. and tried to clear that up for giuliani. giuliani put on cleanup duty as well. so, i think this is very symbolic, almost, of the white house in disarray. because it seems like there's never a week without an issue or some public relations issue with the white house. these days. >> it certainly keeps us hopping on the weekends here. jonathan, i want to turn to this "wall street journal" article. how big of a deal is it on the report that the lines of credit that michael cohen took out at the height of 2016 campaign -- as we said earlier, it was like $774,000? >> the key here, dara, when you make transactions like that, you have to represent to the lender what the money is for. and there's been report including in that journal

article, that the prosecutors in general are looking at whether michael cohen may have misstated the purposes of loans he received. and he received loans to pay off stormy daniels, my guess is that probably didn't fall under the letter of the law with regard to -- with regard to your home equity line policy. >> interesting. >> i don't know -- i don't know where that subclause is for paying off a porn star. >> for paying off -- i don't think there is one. but if there is one, i'm sure we'll find it. >> julia, last night, fox's neil caputo read e-mails. and let me tell you about a bite that got caputo in trouble. take a listen. >> why are you saying -- >> when did you find out? >> i'll tell you what, rudy is a great guy but he just started a day ago, but he really hasn't started -- >> this is different. this is tape of president trump

actually talking about rudy giuliani. but neil caputo went on before talking about how paul ticket and how president trump basically has to startling the truth here. is that any reflection of 9 political consequences of this investigation? because as we're sitting here discovering it, we can't even tell what is the truth and what is it? >> right, right. so, i think this is all very frustrating for neil cavuto. he has touted the president's tax reform strategy. and he's touted the fact that trump is a businessman so he's sometimes supportive of him in that regard. but with all of this news coming out about stormy daniels and payment and all of that swirling around, it makes it frustrated for people like cavuto to continuously defend the president. they want to talk about lowers the unemployment rate. and they want to talk about tax reform and what some say are

benefits but he can't right now because it seems like this is overshadowing that. however, trump's base is extremely loyal. i think it's difficult to say this controversy with stormy daniels and the payment will necessarily be politically damaging for the president. because the president is politically teflon. i think a lot of the president's supporters, out in the middle of america, out in the rust belt, care about the economic opportunities that they say the president has given them and his administration. so, it makes sense that they would almost push back on cavuto, because they want to see someone who is supporting the president. because for them, they think they've had positive benefit from it. >> julie man equivalenter and jonathan allen. thanks for sticking around, because we do have other things to talk about on the other side of the break. next up, how rudy giuliani's statement about the knowledge of the stormy daniels payment may have back fired. we want to remind you asian

america, a to z. diverse perspectives on being asian-american and pacific islanders. check them out. managing blood sugar is not a marathon. it's a series of smart choices. and when you replace one meal or snack a day with glucerna made with carbsteady to help minimize blood sugar spikes you can really feel it. glucerna. everyday progress.

woman: where are we taking him? i have no clue. we're just tv doctors. if this was a real emergency, i'd be freaking out. we are the tv doctors of america. together with cigna reminding you to go, know, and take control of your health. schedule your annual check-up today. to go, know, and take control of your health. at a comfort inn with a glow taround them, so people watching will be like, "wow, maybe i'll glow too if i book direct at choicehotels.com." who glows? just say, badda book. badda boom. book now at choicehotels.com. ♪ ♪ legendary jockey víctor espinoza is insatiable when it comes to competing. ♪ ♪ so is his horse. ♪ ♪ when it comes to snacking. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ that's why he uses the chase mobile app,

to pay practically anyone, at any bank. life, lived victor's way. chase. make more of what's yours.

$130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no. >> then why did michael cohen make it -- >> you have to ask michael cohen. >> do you know -- >> no, i don't know. >> a new report this morning says president trump knew about the stormy daniels payment months before he spoke to reporters in that clip. "the new york times" reporting the president knew about the $130,000 payment to the porn star several months before that

denial. the time frame is under scrutiny after the president's attorney, rudy giuliani defended trump's reimbursement to michael cohen for the payout. >> it's not campaign money. no campaign finance violation. >> they funneled it through a law firm? >> funneled through a law firm and the president repaid it. >> judy knows it's a witch hunt. he started yesterday. he'll get his facts straight. he's a great guy. >> giuliani released a statement yesterday reading in part, my references to timing were not describing my understanding of the president's knowledge. but instead, my understanding these matters. for more, let's bring in msnbc legal analysis danny cevallos. did morning, danny. >> good morning. >> what have trudy giuliani's -

>> it created a lot of inconsistencies. it's true in some case a lawyer's words can bind the client. but the condition now appears to be rudy giuliani's statements were based on what he understood, as opposed to president trump's understanding of the facts. i see the legal strategy here. the legal strategy that giuliani is trying to put out there is this. michael cohen was authorized to do things for trump. michael cohen probably had a slush fund of money to help then candidate trump handle issues. michael cohen makes a decision to pay -- to pay to settle a case that really should be settled for nuisance value. and i should add that rudy giuliani's view of nuisance value of $130,000 goes against the great weight of all other corporations and how she seal nuisance value. i've been on both sides of those cases. plaintiff, defendant, when a giant conversation thinks a case

is worth nothing, they make it go away for $1,000. not $130,000. >> and now may having worried that they may have and that it's private. can you elaborate on this? >> attorney/client privilege is not a default. not every conversation that i have with a citizen is presumptively privileged. you can to create the privilege. consider our conversation right now. because there are a great number of third parties present there could never be privilege, because it's not a client to attorney communication. there are other third parties involved. privilege defeated. any communications not made for the purpose of obtaining legal advice or delivering legal advice are also not privileged. so there are many ways that a conversation can lose privilege. it's not the default position at all, rather, one has to create the privilege by making sure all of the prerequisites are there.

>> danny i want to turn back to the $130,000. and so how did giuliani's admission to the payment change the case against michael cohen? >> it's really hard to predict because we don't know what the underlying case is against michael cohen. so, if we speculate that it has to do with possible bank fraud, possible tax violations, all kinds of things. but in a general sense, rudy giuliani's statement may have been calculated to help michael cohen. but maybe it hurts michael cohen. because it places more of the responsibility on michael cohen. again, it's that -- it's the suggestion that michael cohen had this free rein and access to money to do whatever he needed to do. so that all of those decisions were not trump's. trump later on would reimburse him for those decisions. but michael cohen had the lead

and made all of those critical decisions. if that's their position, if that's what giuliani is trying to do it tends to exonerate trump in rudy giuliani's mind. but it may make cohen have a little more liability should we say, if that's giuliani's plan. >> talking about liability here, danny, do you think that giuliani will keep his job after this week? >> well, that's -- that's tough to say. as a general proposition, attorneys shouldn't be on air attacking prosecutors. they shouldn't be volunteering factual information that was previously unknown. that doesn't really have anything to do with the underlying investigation. but as you can see, from that clip, as we stand here today or yesterday, trump is very confident in giuliani. and it may be the case that trump doesn't view giuliani as a get into the room, review the documents and try this case attorney. rather, use him as more of a

pr-type attorney. and the real work is left to the veteran, to the person who has experience with these motors and that is emmitt flood. >> interesting. danny we'll have this same conversation next weekend. thank you so much. appreciate it. why tuesday's primaries are more important than you think? what you need to watch out for. that's up next. woman: my niece maria. maria: hi! woman: perfection! by connecting drivers to what's important. maria: i love that. and by protecting those who matter the most. the all-new ecosport. it's the big upgrade in a small package. from ford. america's best-selling brand. see what you can get for under 20 grand with the all-new ecosport. woman: i stay active by staying in rhythm. and to keep up this pace, i drink boost optimum. boost optimum with 5 in 1 advanced nutrition helps support muscle, energy, bone, normal immune function,

and vision. boost optimum. be up for life. boost optimum. ♪ from only the thickest, juiciest heinz tomatoes. no one grows ketchup like heinz™. essential for the cactus, but maybe not for people with rheumatoid arthritis. because there are options. like an "unjection™". xeljanz xr. a once-daily pill for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well enough. xeljanz xr can reduce pain, swelling and further joint damage, even without methotrexate. xeljanz xr can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma and other cancers have happened. don't start xeljanz xr if you have an infection. tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened. your doctor should perform blood tests before you start and while taking xeljanz xr,

and monitor certain liver tests. tell you doctor if you were in a region where fungal infections are common and if you have had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. needles. fine for some things. but for you, one pill a day may provide symptom relief. ask your doctor about xeljanz xr. an "unjection™".

now back to politics. later today, president trump will travel to cleveland, ahead of tuesday's senate primary and in the buckeye state, ohio is one of four states holding primaries in pretty contentious races, particularly on the republican side. the others are indiana, west virginia and north carolina. let's bring back julia manchester and jonathan allen. julia, when we look at that west virginia race do you think people are trying to distance themselves from blankenship. >> one tweet i want to bring up

is donald trump jr. saying let's not lose. he almost sounded br establishment. that's how republicans are feeling. >> jonathan, you can talk about how some of the races are turning up, via competition to show who loves president trump the most? >> yeah. the way the -- most of these candidates are looking at how can i tell the voters i'm the trumpiest. i was just in indiana about a week and a half ago talking to voters there. they've got a primary where there's a businessman running, mike vaughan. he's trying to say he is most like trump. so are two other congressmen who are republicans. this is going on all around the country. the question is going to be once somebody wins those primaries, are they still going to want to

be identified as the trumpiest candidate. >> i'm going to have trumpiest in my mind all day. jonathan thank you, julia, thank you for wearing that sunshine yellow. that's it for me. first stay with us, "your business" with j.j. ramberg. commanded armies... yielded to no one. when i found you in my dna, i learned where my strength comes from. my name is courtney mckinney, and this is my ancestrydna story. now with 5 times more detail than other dna tests. order your kit at ancestrydna.com now with 5 times more detail than other dna tests. a hilton getaway means you get more because... you get another day in paradise. get a sunset on a sunday. get more stories to share. get more from your summer getaway with exclusive hilton offers. book yours, only at hilton.com

gentlemen, i have just received word! the louisiana purchase, is complete! instant purchase notifications from capital one . technology this helpful... could make history. what's in your wallet? you wouldn't accept from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one. flonase.

show me the billboard music awards. the billboard music awards knows how to party. [ cheering ] what up, dog? show me top artist. unbelieveable. i've got my whole family up here. look at my dad looking all sharp. with just the sound of your voice,

xfinity x1 gives you a front row seat to the billboard music awards, including throwback clips from some of your favorite artists. the 2018 billboard music awards, sunday, may 20th. only on nbc. coming up on msnbc's "your business" -- the second generation of an auto repair center comes out to his family and colleagues changing mind and culture. and why you have to keep reinventing your brand and why she often rehires people she fired. and linda mcmahon kicks off business week. let's grow fast and work smart. coming up next on "your business."