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>> rudy knows it's a witch hunt. he started yesterday. ah -- he'll get his facts straight. he's a great guy. but what he does is he feels it's a bad thing for our country and he happens to be right. i'll tell you this. i will tell you this. when rudy make the statement -- rudy's great and he had just started and he wasn't totally familiar with everything. and rudy -- we love rudy. he's a special guy. what he really understands, this is a witch hunt. >> good morning and welcome to "am joy." donald trump declared it small business week and ended the week about a payoff to a porn star. ten days into his new job as trump's attorney rudy giuliani made a surprising claim about michael cohen's $130,000 payment to stormy daniels. >> that money was not campaign money. sorry.

i'm giving you a fact now you don't know. it's not campaign money. no campaign finance violation. so -- >> they funneled it through the law firm? >> funneled through a law firm and the president repaid it. >> oh. i didn't know -- he did? >> yep. >> no campaign finance law? >> zero. he reimbursed. >> that directly contradicts the president's claim just weeks ago that he didn't know about the stormy payment. the next day giuliani went even further. >> however, imagine if that came out on october 15th, 2016, in the middle of the last debate with hillary clinton. >> to make it go away they made this -- >> cohen didn't even ask. cohen -- he made it go away. he did his job. >> okay. over twitter on thursday, trump declibed the payments part of a retainer. by friday, trump was trying to turn back time. >> we're not changing any story. see -- excuse me.

excuse me. no, but you have to -- excuse me. you take a look at what i said. you go back and take a look. you'll see what i said. >> you said when i asked you -- >> excuse me. take a look at what we said. >> which is it? he deor did he not know his lawyer paid for a porn's silence about the alleged affair? citing two statements, he knew about the money for a few months before he denied it to the press in april. looks like national small business week was a hit. joining me now maya wiley and danny savalis, nick ackerman and lisa blum. let's start with the giuliani's walked back and tried to correct the record on the things he said. the first part is there's no campaign violation. the payment was made to resolve a personal and false allegation in order to protect the president's family. it would have been done in any event whether he was a candidate

or not. saying it was personal. my reference is to timing not described in the understanding of the president's knowledge but instead my understanding of these matters. okay. you worked with rudy giuliani as a u.s. attorney here in new york. when you read his statements and then his counter statements, was he a good lawyer? what are we -- looking at bad lawyering? what is going on here? >> what's going on here is chief lawyer is donald j. trump. he's taking the queues from donald trump. he is basically just an shill for donald trump and he's also taking on the entire rule of law and undermining our system of justice and attacking the fbi, attacking the u.s. attorney's office. i mean, he actually referred to the fbi agents who executed a valid search warrant on the office of michael cohen as a bunch of storm troopers. now, as part of that u.s. attorney sort of alumni, this

has raised major concerns of us communicating with each other over the last few days and helpful to read an e-mail i got that i think really sums it up. and it says -- i won't name the person that did it. i haven't talked to him about saying this on national tv but he said for those who regard the united states attorney's office in the southern dris ticket of new york of a model of prosecutor's office should be, it was distressing to see the former leader of that office, rudolph giuliani, telling sean hannity that fbi agents acting under the supervision of that office, quote, storm troopers. closed quote. >> didn't he hire jim comey? >> hired him. never called him. now calling him a pathological liar. if there's one thing to say about jim comey he is not a liar. he may have bad judgment and doesn't lie. >> yeah. >> also attacking rod rosenstein now for this fisa warpt whether

the fact of the matter is that fisa parent initiated because of the trump campaign's own person who mouthed off to somebody in london over drinks about the fact he was aware that the russians had broken into the democratic national committee and had hacked all of the e-mails. >> there's a lot. michael daly was on with me last night and giuliani is incredibly close to the fbi, new york branch of the fbi and so much so that comey was having him investigated for whether he was getting advance knowledge of the clinton investigation from his friends in the fbi. that's how close he is. i want to come to you on this because the information last night, "the wall street journal" a scoop and then "the new york times." start with "the wall street journal" and this is now about the lines of credit. we knew that there was $130,000 loan taken against his house by michael cohen and now over $700,000 in loans between him and his wife. according to the journal, in february 2016 as mr. trump's

fortunes an a candidate rose mr. cohen nearly doubled the amount to use on a bank credit line on the manhattan apartment. three months earlier gained potential access to another $529,000 through a new mortgage he and his wife co-signed on a condo owned by her parents in trump world tower. "the new york times" added to that saying a person close to the organization said the people at the company aware he was doing legal work for the president in 2017. another person said that the person was running the trump organization at the time didn't know it because donald trump apparently reimbursing and what giuliani's trying to say, he takes out the personal lines of credit, $729,000 or so. >> slush fund. protect -- >> protect donald trump fund. >> slush fund. >> he gets paid back in $35,000 a month increments for quote/unquote legal work. is any of that legal? >> well, first of all, a lot of facts we have to get before we say whether or not it's legal. >> right. >> certainly, certainly suggests

that there is plenty reason to be concerned that there are very serious violations here. both of federal election laws, obviously, because if there are -- if there are payments being made to protect the election of the president and remember that we also have "wall street journal" has reported that there are e-mails that suggest michael cohen complaining of not being repaid for the loans. >> right. >> for this loan transaction for making the stormy daniels payment. >> go away. >> go away. that certainly suggests willfulness on the part of the president meaning there's knowledge and doesn't have to have knowledge of every single transaction because the reality is he can be charged with being part of the conspiracy. so if he set up a campaign slush fund with promises to michael cohen to repay the loan -- >> right. >> -- that puts him in a conspiracy. >> yeah. >> actually that would be a violation of federal -- >> danny, i also wonder if

michael cohen goes to the bank twice and says i need $200,000 to remodel my kitchen and really wants it part of a slush fund and then he and his wife say we need $500,000 in the bathroom in the mansion or whatever. and then they use the money as part of a slush fund. in and of itself is that illegal? >> money creates a trail. it has to wake up somewhere and end up somewhere and these transactions raise all kinds of problems not the least of which is marching into a bank or apply for a mortgage you put down certain statements and those statements have to be true so you have to wonder what is on that statement? is it i need the loan to pay off adult film star? what do i need the loan for? any of these transactions raise an entire new layer of regulation and i would add that when you call this a retainer, you add yet another layer, the rules of professional responsibility that apply to

attorneys. if you really wanted to come out and just say, you know what this is? not a slush fund. this is a gigantic petty cash account because when i need to buy highlighters, gio to petty cash. i don't need to tell the boss. paying off adult film stars, i don't need to tell the boss. that would have been safer than calling it a retainer because once you call it a retainer there are so many rules and nick can talk about this, too. when we get a payment, we need to be care about a fat fee, going in the client trust account and if it does, what is the paper work on that? because one of the surest ways to discipline for attorneys is monkeying around or creating a gray area of the client trust account, operating account and then a petty cash account, whatever that is. >> meaning in that money that you have as a retainer some of it is the pay for you and some of it done for the client. you can't mix them? >> well, the client trust account and the operating account you mix those and then you get the tickets. >> very quickly. >> let's bring in lisa.

the other sort of obvious place the mind goes knowing that it's not just $130,000 he's taking out but more like $700,000 begs the question, well, was he paying off multiple people as alleged that there were quote hundreds of women to be taken care. i want to play for you michael avenatti. take a listen. >> there were extensive communications between michael cohen and keith davidson in october of 2016 relating to the timing of this payment and the need for the payment to be made prior to the election. extensive communications. relating to the need for the payment to be made, when it was made and as it related to potential influence on the election. period. >> so, lisa, we know that keith davidson was the attorney of karen mcdougall and stormy daniels. if you have the lawyer who's

setting up the agreement with the women acting supposedly as the lawyer, the lawyer for donald trump operating with his own money to have this sort of slush fund to pay women off, even if donald trump isn't knowledgeable about the each individual payments, do you have the possibility of a conspiracy? do you go to the -- does your mind go to the fact of how many other women were involved in the payoffs? >> yes. now up to $700,000 plus there have to be other women. why would there be a slush fund? attorneys don't get to have slush funds. period. the end. i have a 14-lawyer law firm. i have to review the finances every month and if a client give mess a bunch of money it's very clearly accounted for. so why as michael cohen taking out home equity loans to protect donald trump? only two explanations. trying to hide the money doing something illegal. number two, donald trump is

actually broke just like my a michelle wolf said last week. >> i want to come the other point because the please stop helping category for rudy giuliani, he told "the washington post" that the repayments to cohen from trump took place over a period of time. probably all paid back by the end of 2017. that and probably a few other situations that might be considered campaign expenses. so, he's given away a few things. wanted to establish in this series of interviews that cohen was paid back an not look like an un-reimbursed expense. check. now he himself is offering that these payments had to do with the campaign. has he hurt his client? >> totally. i mean, look at the overall picture herement it's not just taking out little pieces here. you have an admission by all of them that they funneled money

through a law firm using an llc that was set up with phony names just for the purpose of doing that with aliases under agreements with the president of the united states going under the name of david dennison and the other part peggy something or other and they're giving $130,000 just prior to the election. i mean, the whole thing wreaks of criminality. but, but the irony here is that's not what they're really looking at cohen for. what they're really looking at him for is russian investigation. >> right. >> he is the pivotal guy on trump tower moscow. he is the person that went to prague to take over from manafort after manafort had to leave because of all of the information that came out on him. there is no -- i mean, there's this whole false story created that the whole search warrant relates to this whole business with stormy daniels. >> right. >> i can't believe for a second

that the department of justice would have ever approved search warrant based solely on that. this is russia. >> right. that means that when the judge says you're just going after this guy because you want trump, that's kind of true. right? >> it might be true but i really caution everybody to read too much into what a federal judge says from the bench. many oral arguments have involved a lot of back and forth and remember, federal judges serve with life tenure. you can imagine how frank all of us would be if we had life tenure in our jobs. what he says at oral argue his honor will have a written opinion and often not nearly as dramatic as maybe the back and forth, colloquy, at oral argument and don't read too much into that. >> two things. one, i think it was actually fairly astonishing that a sitting actual judge notwithstanding the fact life

tenure to make such polite sized statements. >> "the washington post" is reporting rudy giuliani could be interviewed with his own issues but this question of whether or not any number of women who may come forward to say i, too, part of the slush fund and got some of that $700,000, should we be considering that a completely separate irssue as a campaign violation issue totally separate from the mueller probe writ large? >> well, that's a good question. i mean, i think the issues are somewhat separate. they're all centered around lying by donald trump. there have to be more women. i encourage other women to come forward. look at stormy daniels. she is very brave and still standing an doing just fine and people out there and they're in fear but this is the time to come forward and i suspect there to be more payments and probably in october of 2016. >> yeah. you would think if he took out $700,000 and spent $130,000, what happened to the rest?

maya, nick and danny are sticking around. lisa, have a great rest of the sunday. >> thank you. up next, he hired him. trump fired him. the saga of rudy and comey is next. the sun is shining so why binge in here, when you can do it out there. with this clever little app called audible. you can listen to the stories you love while doing the things you love, outside. everyone's doing it she's binging... they're binging... and... so is he. so put on your headphones, turn on audible and binge better.

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he fired comey because comey would not among other things say that he wasn't a target of the investigation. he's entitled to that.

hillary clinton got that. and he couldn't get that. so he fired him and he said i'm free of this guy. i know james comey. i know the president. sorry, jim. you're a liar. a disgraceful liar. >> wow. on wednesday, newly minted trump counsel rudy giuliani offered a rationale why former fbi director james comey was fired last may boiling down to comey failing to do trump's bidding only to walk back those comments friday in a statement saying, quote, it is undisputed that the president's dismissal of former director comey and inferior was within his power and confirmed the wisdom of the president's decision which was plainly the best interest of our nation. back with me are my guests. let's start with the contention that the comey firing was just within his power and in giuliani's case and somehow comey was dishonest. take ourselves back to may 9th,

2017. this is a reporter asking then press secretary sean spicer, remember spicy? about the comey firing. take a listen. >> seems so abrupt where james comey even found out about it by television. >> i think the president was given a recommendation by the deputy attorney general who the fbi director reports to. the attorney general concurred with that. that the fbi director lost the confidence to lead the fbi and the president took the recommendation and agreed with it. >> not two days later, literally two days later on may 11th, this was donald trump explaining the firing to our own lester holt. >> what i did was i was going to fire comey. my decision. >> you had made the decision before they came in the room. >> i was going to fire comey. when i decided to just do it, i said to myself, i said, you know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a made-up story. >> okay. can't be both!

okay? first, spicer who's his spokesperson says, nope, nope, a pure recommendation of the attorney general rod rosenstein and then trump says, nah, i was going to do it anyway. >> he was in the clear. he was in the clear with the ag's letter, with the rosenstein's letter, with the conclusion that the hillary clinton e-mail scandal was mishandled. he was in the clear and then he gives that interview which is completely devastating. >> and now, mueller wants to ask among the questions apparently leaked by trump's other lawyer jay sekulow and regarding the decision of firing mr. comey. >> we're talking that the president said "the washington post" had 2,400 false or misleading statements, number one. >> yeah. >> secondly, remember there was the background around the discussions that happened in trump's request for the memo in the first place. >> right. >> from rod rosenstein.

and jeff sessions. and thirdly, the fact that trump himself had been making statements about how great it was, of course, and how inadequate the fbi's investigation of hillary clinton's e-mails to then turn around and say the problem is going after hillary clinton and the e-mails. even if the memo had stood and not made the inconsistent statement the next day, he still would have had a problem in terms of obstruction of justice. >> two issues really. the first one is consciousness of guilt and relates to why trying to stop the fbi investigation into mike flynn. >> yeah. >> it's because mike flynn knows about the quid pro quo for sanctions in the campaign. why is he doing this? second part to the obstruction of justice which goes to trump's intent. did he have corrupt intent? that's nothing more than an intent to impede, obstruct or delay the investigation.

we have got that right across the board here. >> back to nixon. you can obstruct justice even if there's no underlying crime. no? >> right. >> correct. absolutely. i mean, most of the people that wound up being convicted in the watergate trial didn't -- weren't involved in the actual break-in. they were involved in the obstruction. so -- but here i think it's really is going to be the underlying crime opposed to obstruction and the consciousness of guilt is going to be critical in proving that obstruction in terms of the underlying crime and why trump fired comey, why he asked comey to stop the investigation, why his admission to lester holt and the admission to the russian ambassador -- you take all of them. >> look at them together. >> put it altogether and you have a clear obstruction of justice. >> reminder, obstruction of justice asking him to stop investigating michael flynn who he had to fire. go to rudy giuliani's other contention here about comey and leaks. let's play that on fox.

>> comey should be prosecuted for leaking confidential fbi information. i have the indignity of having hired him for his first big job and embarrassed i hired him. >> sorry, but, you know, rudy giuliani's the guy that leaked patrick dorsman's record when this innocent man approached by an undercover cop and then shot. >> waiting for a taxi. security guard waiting for a taxi cab unarmed, shot by a police officer. apparently accidentally. just to -- you know, be clear. but nonetheless, giuliani actually went on the defensive for the police officer suggested this guy is no angel and leaked -- by the way, one of those records was for disorderly conduct, something that we already have social science tell us black people are disproportion at natalie charged with. >> and said he was not an altar boy and he was an altar boy.

>> refused the talk to black leaders, express any remorse or sensitivity to the family. >> the black community remembers rudy giuliani in new york and not favorably. danny, this charge that comey is leaking, is it a crime to release your own memos, especially since when he was in the position the memos were classified and released them and wrote about them in the book. >> he created them at home personally. right? provided a copy to the bureau. >> yeah. >> i think comey's has a very, very strong argument and in the book for not having leaked information. this is something that he created not -- wasn't a fbi 302. wasn't what their standard memo is and as the director he is not going to be creating a lot of 302s. so this is not a typical fbi memorandum that we might see in a criminal discovery case. a memorandum at home and delivered a copy to other folks.

>> not like he took classified information and cherry picked it and put in it a memo. that's nunes. coming up, trump took the show on the road to the nra convention and it was something to behold. (vo) what if this didn't have to happen? i didn't see it. (vo) what if we could go back? what if our car... could stop itself? in iihs front-end crash prevention testing, nobody beats the subaru impreza. not toyota. not honda. not ford. the subaru impreza. more than a car, it's a subaru.

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as an nra meeting for annual convention in dallas, a former president of the organization is under scrutiny. this is sandra froman, served as president of thenra 2005 to 2007 and now an nra board member, also on the board for gun maker sturm ruger and xen and they're threatening to boot her from the board unless the company agrees to support gun safety measures. that vote is expected to happen next week. and also under fire for stories like this. mother jones reports she once helped a professor promoting the theory that african-americans were genetically inferior to whites. she said that she worked as a secretary of shockly and not involved in the racist theories. up next, donald trump trots out his campaign's greatest hits at

the nra convention. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job

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put our hands on our hearts for the pledge of allegiance and we all proudly stand for the national anthem. we proudly stand. electoral college. there's no way to do -- for me. there is no way to 270.

they were right. but 306 was, right? illegal immigration must end. >> donald trump struck out the greatest hits before briefly talking about guns and the mass shooting in parkland, florida coming as parkland students still dealing with the loss of class mates prepare for prom tonight. trump briefly flirted with a tougher stance with the nra after the shooting only to back pedal again. on friday he backed the plan to arm teachers while speaking to a crowd in a gun free zone. >> we strongly believe in allowing highly trained teachers to carry concealed weapons. highly trained. 98% of mass public shootings have occurred in places where guns are banned. just so you understand. tragically as we have seen there

is no sign more inviting to a mass killer than a sign that declares this school is a gun free zone. come in and take us. >> all righty then. joining me now is senior adviser of moveon.org, junior alea eastman and sandra deutsch. thank you all for being here. i have to come to you first. today is, of course, senior prom. when i was a kid we called junior prom morp. i don't know if they have that at your school. >> no. >> you guys, this is a day that should be a happy day for students at parkland and it is, of course, a tough day remembering your friends but i wonder what you make of donald trump's change of heart. this was donald trump after a meeting with lawmakers and when he had a meeting with lawmakers at the white house to get tough with the nra. take a listen.

>> just curious as to what you did in your bill in order to -- >> we didn't address it, mr. president. >> you're afraid of the nra. they have great power over you people. they have less power over me. i don't need -- what do i need? >> as a student, how do you feel about donald trump's change of heart? >> it's nice but i would prefer if he would be a little tougher in actually stand with us and helping us rather than say something and not do the work after. >> yeah. and did you expect after he talked so tough back then, back in february, did you expect -- were you surprised to see him go right back to the nra's lean of arm the teachers, et cetera? >> no. because he always says the same things over and over so i wasn't surprised. >> yeah. representative, i'll ask you the same question. there's a new nbc news/"the wall

street journal" poll showing first time since 1999 in polling the nra is underwater in terms of public's view of them. 37% view them positively. a lot of this is because of the msd students and determined advocacy and allies around the country. do you think that those negative poll numbers, notwithstanding the fact standing and cheering donald trump in dallas, does that end up changing the way lawmakers behave toward the nra? >> well, ultimately it will. i do believe that. but look at what the president did yesterday at the nra. that the hypocrisy of the president of the united states is stunning and it is infuriating. i sat a few seats down from the white house at the white house after the horrific shooting when he told my colleagues that they're scared an petrified of the nra. he was right then but then he turned around and showed that he is every bit as afraid as they are and shouldn't be because so

many people now realize, the majority of people understand, that the nra doesn't represent -- they don't represent active gun enthusiasts. they represent the gun companies. they represent the special interest corporations whose sole driving purpose generating more profits by the sale of guns and oppose every single common sense step. so many of which have the support of 60, 70 in the case of background checks 90% of the american people. they oppose all of them because all they stand for are the gun companies. people are on to the game. they're on to the distractions and the lies that come from the nra. that's why the american people now understand that. we simply now need to push back hard against them so that my colleagues in the congress can understand, as well. or understand that they're going to lose elections because they stand with the gun companies instead of standing with every

day americans who believe we should take action on gun safety. >> that brings me to the nra stands for a lot of money pouring into politics. $60 million on mitt romney. $30 million to help elect donald trump. you've seen within their membership, you know, there's a story, i believe in "rolling stone" when smith & wesson i think in 2001 tried to cooperate with the clinton administration and voluntarily do gun control measure it is attacks, they are about selling guns and not deterred from the message and the president with them. how to counter message against that? >> i think we follow the parkland students. they have done an excellent job on counter messaging on the nra and why they're underwater right now. they have talked about because they're victims themselves, and lost friends and loved ones, they have used social media in a clear way that -- and pushing elected officials both d and r

and saying we'll be you when they turn 18 and donald trump two months ago he's calling insinuating republican senators cowards and here yesterday crawling on his knees literally and begging and trying to get their approval. >> yeah. >> and it is -- i mean, it is typical donald trump. this is what he does. he is -- they have him in the pocket. >> mike pence was there with him. >> oh gosh. and then the arpaio thing. so much on him. >> so much, so much. shannon, one of the things that the parkland students are doing that's different is they're using economic targeting. i mentioned that back in 2000 you had people who were on the -- have more guns side targeting any company to dare cooperate in gun reform. now you have a tweet from david hogg a parkland student and he said he tweeted this. florida retirement system pension plan holds shares valued

at $528,000 in american outdoor brands known as smith & wesson, manufacturer of the ar-15, the company that make manages frs is eynews. what do you make of this tactic going to pension funds and trying to get them them divest? >> it's an important tactic and i think effective and broad all over the country. but, you know, that is something moms demand action is doing actually since we started. i mean, just six months into our organization we were able to get starbucks ceo schultz to come out on national television to say guns are no longer welcome in our stores because people don't realize open carry is legal in 45 states so the bottom line is that it is up to companies to protect their customers when lawmakers aren't protecting their constituents and they play a very important role in helping us to make the nra leaders' agenda toxic and it

should be. every lawmaker, every business should be afraid to work with the nra on anything. and that's the goal going into the midterms to make sure that a "a" rating of the nra is a scarlet letter. >> yeah. speaking of companies and they're sort of connection to the nra and dealing with them, the nra has a receipt of ellen's restaurant in dallas telling people to avoid ellen's saying this week's proceeds from the restaurant donated to organizations of reasonable and effective gun regulations and the nra is like boycott ellen's. i want students released a music video of the song "shine" written by two students of your school in response to the shooting and the proceeds go to the nonprofit shine msd so they provide healing through arts to support programs so let's play a little bit of that.

♪ ♪ but you're not going to knock us down ♪ ♪ we'll get back up again ♪ you may have hurt us but i promise we'll be stronger ♪ ♪ and we're not going to let you in ♪ ♪ we're putting up a fight note you may have brought the dark but together we will shine the light ♪ ♪ and whoa ♪ we will be something special >> she's got a great voice. you guys have been so creative in the ways and different ways that you guys have responded to the kri sis. where do these ideas come from? a main group and different branchs? how are you coming up with this stuff? >> everyone doing their own thing with their groups or alone and we come together and work on it together. >> yeah. well, it's very smart. representative deutsch, can this work on democrats? democrats have been afraid of the nra and do you think that's changing? >> yeah. when i came back to washington

after the shooting, we refiled the assault weapons ban and first it's more co-sponsored than ever before and colleagues came up to me and tell me they had wavered in the past and before the polling that now shows that the majority of the clear majority of men people think that we need to get weapons and war off our streets and came up to me saying i wavered but this is the right thing to do. joy, i just listening to that song highlights the incredible work that the students are doing. i can't help but think of the young woman who came up to me in the vigil that took place, the day after the shooting, who came up to me and described the most horrific scene she had seen and she said, congressman, you can't allow it to keep happening. you have to do something. i think that the -- i know that

the overwhelming majority of my colleagues and the democratic caucus feel that way and there are republicans who understand that things are changing and that they have to act, as well. >> yeah. we are out of time. shannon, very quickly, do you see a sea change? you have been at this for a long time. >> seeing a huge change. just since parkland, four republican governors with "a" ratings of the nra have signed new, strong, gun reform legislation. we need every single american to vote on this issue. >> thank you to the panel. god bless you and your fellow students. you guys are doing tremendous work. ted and shannon, same to you, shannon. thank you. really appreciate it. next hour, special counsel robert mueller has so many questions for donald trump. plus, the west virginia senate race goes completely off the rails. more after the break. oh. hey mom.

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them. >> this week minnesota senator tina smith got a new challenger in the race for al franken's old senate seat, richard painter, frequent "a.m. joy" guest and long time republican to announced he will be running a as democrat. richard painter joins me now. richard, we are familiar with you defending the republican party that you are a member of for 30 some odd years. you've now left the party. why? >> well, i've defended the traditional values of the republican party which have eroded over several decades. the republican party is supposedly the party of small government, but wants to tell women whether or not to have an abortion. that makes no sense. the republican party under teddy roosevelt and richard nixon supported environmental protection, nixon founded -- they started the epa under nixon, now the republican party is backing scott pruitt in his effort to destroy the environment. the republican party used to respect fiscal responsibility

and try to have balanced budgets, now they're spending money like drunken sailors. now of course we have a president who is a complete disaster who really wants to take our country to an authoritarian rule. if the republican party is going to back him and back these absurd policies that have nothing to do with the traditional values of the party, then millions of people are going to jump ship. i'm only one of them. and in minnesota we're going to focus not just on president trump, but on real issues. we have a multi-national mining conglomerate, some of them tied to the russians that want to move into minnesota and pollute our boundary waters and one of those senator smith supports. i strongly oppose that. we need to protect our environment in minnesota. we also don't need any more pork barrel spending like the stadium deal where nfl owners soak up, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money. this should be spent on schools and roads and public projects. most important, with he need

money out of politics. i'm not going to take any pac money. no pac money. that's what's corrupting our government is all the outside money, pacs and the dirty -- you know, the dark money organizations and all of that. >> right. let's talk about this, it's a very democratic state for the purposes of elections like this. amy klobuchar is running for reelection, tina smith, yourself, nick leonard who is running on the extra the tick side. minnesota went democratic in the '92, '96, 2008 and 2012 elections and in all the midterms around them. if you look at hillary clinton she won minnesota by two points, barack obama won it by eight points. you have been a republican for a really long side so why should democrats elect somebody who is a long time republican and who has defended the core values of the other people. >> well, i just spoke of the core values that were important to me and i don't think those are core values that democrats disagree with.

the right of individuals to make their own decisions, including about abortion and protection of the environment, and fiscal responsibility. those are the values that i defend. i do not defend some of the -- a lot of the policies of the more contemporary republican party and particularly of donald trump. i want this campaign to focus on the issues and once again, the democratic party is not going to endear itself to minnesota if it continues to support these mining operations that are coming into our state, want to mine copper and nickel, pollute the environment, they are on loan by foreign billionaires and we need to draw the line. >> how much of your run is about al franken and his being essentially forced out? >> well, this election wouldn't be happening if he hadn't been forced out. >> your own feelings about t you've been vocal on twitter opposing the fact that he was pushed to resign. how much of you reason something about that? >> many minnesotans think there

should have been an investigation and we should have found out the facts, but al franken decided to do what he did and now we have this election. it's unfortunate. we are going to have millions of dollars of outside super pac money coming into our state, once again i reject all of the pacs and super pacs, i don't want to have anything to do with them, but we are going to have a special election we didn't need to have. at least let's have a debate, i want to debate senator smith and senator housely the republican candidate and that's have a fair election so minnesota can choose another senator. >> richard painter, friend of the show. we would love to have tina smith on the show, richard painter, thank you very much for your time. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. it is saturday, not sunday. so -- and senator, senator smith. more "a.m. joy" after the break. it's saturday, not sunday. kyle, we talked about this. there's no monsters. but you said they'd be watching us all the time. no, no. no, honey, we meant that progressive would be protecting us 24/7. we just bundled home and auto and saved money. that's nothing to be afraid of. -but -- -good night, kyle.

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i would love to speak. i would love to. nobody wants to speak more than me. in fact, against my lawyers because most lawyers say, never speak on anything. i would love to speak. because we've done nothing wrong. if i thought it was fair, i would override my lawyers. >> welcome back to "a.m. joy." this week dozens of the questions special counsel robert mueller presumably wants to ask donald trump were leaked to the "new york times." meaning the white house has its own question to grapple with, will trump comply if mueller asks to interview him or not? as of friday trump insisted he was open to it.

remarks come as he is now being advised by former new york city mayor rudy giuliani who has warned trump against sitting down for a mueller interview answer as mueller considers using a subpoena to force trump to testify before his grand jury. now, if team trump plans to fight a potential subpoena, that fight could take months and go all the way to the supreme court. three presidents have been subpoenaed in the past, thomas jefferson for documents, rich and nixon for tapes and bill clinton for testimony in a civil dispute. jefferson partially complied with his subpoena and bill clinton's was dismissed when he volunteered to testify in a sexual harassment lawsuit filed against him by paula jones. but as for nixon, he refused to comply for the subpoena -- with the subpoena until the supreme court in a unanimous decision forced him to obey. by releasing taped white house conversations, including the smoking gun tape about watergate that led to his resignation. so if mueller subpoenas trump and trump refuses, the supreme

court could find itself deciding whether a sitting american president could be forced to cooperate in a criminal investigation involving his own conduct. joining me now is john conison, maya wylie and matthew miller, justice and security analyst for msnbc. this is an all star panel. joe, you are one of the very people i would want to talk to about this. in the clinton case you wrote the book "the hunting of the president" that talked about the lengthy get clinton kind of campaign, but in the end it was this civil deposition in which he was forced to do, right, by the court. >> that's right. >> but we don't know whether or not that would apply in a criminal court, right? at the time was there any distinction being made that this is only unanimous because it's a civil case where there is no criminal penalty? >> i think just the opposite, joy. the fact that it was a unanimous decision by the court that you could bring a civil case against

a sitting president meant that if there were a criminal investigation by a sitting president, certainly you would be able to subpoena the president for that. >> right. >> not only that, but, you know, clinton was actually subpoenaed by ken star later in the monica lewinsky case. after resisting invitations to come in for several months, star finally dropped a subpoena on the white house and they negotiated his appearance. >> yeah. >> they withdrew the subpoena after his appearance was negotiated because clinton's lawyers knew that the court would rule that the president had to answer that subpoena in a criminal case. >> maya, i'm going to read from the court filing in clinton v jones on may 27, 1997. it said, the president, like other officials is subject to the same laws that apply to all citizens. that no case had been found in which an official was granted immunity from suit for his unofficial acts. so can you square this for us? you can subpoena a president's

documents, that's jefferson, you can subpoena a president's tapes, that's nixon, and you can subpoena his presence in a civil trial. what we don't know is whether all that means you can subpoena a sitting president when it's a criminal case. >> it will be astounding to me if a president could argue that he is above the law when it comes to potential crimes when -- because of his executive privilege or because it would distract him from his job or any of the things that we heard, for instance, rudy giuliani saying in the hannity interview. >> right. >> if he can be -- if he can be forced to either provide documents or be forced to testify in a civil case, there's simply no logical reason for distinguishing those, but there is no case directly on point, which is why we see so many people coming out of the woodwork saying over and over and over again, the president, executive privilege, this is kind of the public relations

drum beat, this sort of trying to muddy the waters about the actual law. >> right. but, i mean, the logical reason for them on the side of the trump side, jill i will come to you is in this case you are not talking about civil damages for a sexual harassment lawsuit, you are talking about potential crimes for which someone could in theory be jailed and you are talking about the president of the united states. one could see the partisan logic on the court to say it's a little different. there is a court order this is july 24, 1974, you will be familiar with this from the court's opinion. the president's generalized assertion of privilege must yield to the demonstrated specific need for evidence in a pending criminal trial and the fundamental demands of due process of law in the fair administration of criminal justice. now, let's quickly play 15 seconds of the tapes that they released that literally zeroed in on the obstruction, potential criminal case that nixon was facing. >> telly, talking about your

[ inaudible ]. >> okay. so, jill, he's talking about blackmail an obstruction of justice. the court says he cannot withhold information that could potentially be relevant in a criminal trial. in your view having gone through the whole watergate thing could donald trump assert that he cannot be forced to testify before that grand jury because this involved potential crimes? >> the simple answer is no, he cannot avoid it. i think that all logic and all legal precedent say that he will have to comply. whether his testimony is necessary is a different story. his intent has already been made quite clear in his public statements, in his tweets, in his interview with lester holt.

so i don't think we need his evidence to go forward with any kind of obstruction case, and i think he will find it irresistible to want to testify for a couple of reasons. one, because he is arrogant and he thinks he can persuade the grand jury that he's innocent. he will go ahead because he believes that. and he doesn't know, though, what documents and what testimony mueller already has that will contradict him. so he will be stepping into dangerous territory if he lies. if he tells the truth, he may also be in dangerous territory because that may involve admitting things that he has previously denied, the same is true with the $130,000. did he or didn't he know about it? he said he didn't, then he said he did, now he's walking that back. he can't do that in a grand jury. he will be pinned down in a grand jury. >> and, matthew, one thing that donald trump does know or at least his lawyers know is that

there is a justice department finding that you cannot indict a sitting president, right? >> right. >> in a sense the justice department has already pre decided that even if crimes are found by the mueller grand jury, they can't indict him, at least according to those findings. in that case, then, could the justice department essentially say there is no indictment on the table, so you have to go and testify? >> yeah, that may be the justice department's argument and you've seen the president's lawyers out trying to make the argument for some time if you can't be indicted you can't be subpoenaed which is a little bit absurd. i'm going to take the inn advisable step of disagreeing with something jill wine-banks said. i don't think the president wants to testify, i don't think he is going to willingly testify, if he does it will be under compulsion. i think he is like the cowardly lion here, you hear bluster about how much he wants to do this but i bet he is terrified to come down and talk to bob mueller knowing the potential liability he has not just for making false statements but if he does tell the truth and has to talk about why he asked the

fbi to back off of mike flynn, why he fired jim comey, maybe even some of his actions during the campaign, i think there is a great deal of criminal jeopardy for them. if he really wanted to the interview they would be already arranging it. they wouldn't be coming out making excuses publicly all the time. i don't know if bob mueller will eventually subpoena him or not but one thing i feel strongly about is that the president will never willingly sit down and cooperate. >> i want to let jill wine-banks respond. we don't know what's in his head. jill wine-banks, i wonder if his lawyers should be vigorously fighting him going in and testifying to mueller. you made the case that either way he could be in legal jeopardy, whether he tells them the truth or not. >> i think his lawyers should not be advising him to do it. i don't think there is an option if there was a subpoena. he could claim the fifth amendment, he could claim executive privilege. the executive privilege will fail. i do not believe that there is any chance that that hasn't

already been decided by the supreme court, that you have a fraud and crime exception, so that there's not going to be any chance that that will succeed. and i sort of agree with matt that there's -- he keeps saying, oh, i would do it if my lawyers wouldn't -- you know, or if mueller would be fair, if i could be sure of that. >> right. >> well, mueller is being fair. the subjects that he wants to ask about are well within his scope of authority and the questions that were drafted by his lawyer as possible questions he would have to answer are all very fair questions. so he is using excuses. i agree with matt on that. and he could if he wanted to, he ultimately makes the decision. >> i wonder just really quickly, maya, if there is a precedent that one shouldn't proceed with whether there is an indictment or a final report without an interview. that maybe mueller actually needs to interview him first. >> he doesn't need to interview him first, that really is a question that depends on the evidence that he has already

amassed. remember, these questions came before the raid on michael cohen's office. >> right. >> so there's also a lot of additional evidence, we don't know what that evidence says. certainly any prosecutor would want to have the benefit of the interview for a couple of reasons, one, to assess credibility, although i think we already know from the public record trump has a very large credibility problem, but also that they want to be able to test some of what they've heard and see what the other side of the story is going to be. and you would never want your client to be interviewed by a prosecutor without yourself going through all the documents, all of the evidence you think that prosecutor might have. that's a lot of information to go through with a client. there's no way you would want your client to do that. >> matt, rod rosenstein has been put in a position here. he has said we're not going to be bullied. he's being bullied by the white house. has donald trump in a sense worked himself into a position where the one person who really could throw a wrench into the mueller investigation absolutely is now his adversary and that

would be rod rosenstein. >> that's exactly right. i think everyone read those remarks as being pointed at the people in the house that have been criticizing rod rosenstein. i think he was directly sending a signal to the president of the united states who has publicly and privately been pushing the justice department to back off this investigation. >> yeah. >> and, you know, i think rosenstein is making it pretty clear it's not going to work. one other thing i want to say about this question of will he or won't he sit down, i'm sure his lawyers will advise him against sitting down but the american people didn't elect donald trump's lawyer president of the united states they elected donald trump president of the united states. if he wants to take the fifth amendment every american has the right to do that but we expect something different of federal employees. if i had refused to cooperate with a lawful investigation when i worked at the justice department, they can do that as a private citizen but they're fired. they have to leave the federal government. we should not expect anything less. we shouldn't set a lower standard for the person who sits atop the government and is charged with the constitution with faithfully executing all laws.

>> we are out of time, but, joe, let's say this goes to the supreme court, why should the american people expect a court, not the same makeup, but a course that did bush v. gore, that seems to have been a partisan decision to choose the president the majority preferred. why should we expect that this court would not simply protect donald trump regardless of precedent? >> well, this he swore an oath. they swore an oath to uphold the constitution, joy. that's what they're supposed to do, whether they're republicans or democrats. and it's very clear that the constitution requires that the president be subjected to the same laws as the rest of us. so any supreme court justice who votes to quash a subpoena after, by the way, mueller has been entirely fair about this, he has conducted this the same way star did, which was to invite a negotiation about how the president would appear, so a justice who ruled in favor of trump under those circumstances to allow him to escape

accountability for all of these alleged and suspected crimes would go down in history as somebody who had supported des poe tichl and violated their oath in the most egregious way. >> sobering words from joe who will be back. maya, jill. jill, what's your pin? >> it's a constitution, so joe just made it extremely relevant to this discussion. >> so appropriate. thank you very much. thank you. >> my tie. >> oh, the constitution is on the tie next. remember joe arpaio, he may be coming to a u.s. senate seat near you. true story. don't go away. nything-o. but i've got an idea sir. get domo. it'll connect us to everything that's going on in the company. get it for jean who's always cold. for the sales team, it and the warehouse crew. give us the data we need. in one place, anywhere we need it. help us do our jobs better. with domo we can run this place together. well that's that's your job i guess.

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walking through the door that we are also going to be joined today by another favorite, a great friend of this president, a tireless champion of strong borders and the rule of law who spent a lifetime in law enforcement. sheriff joe arpaio. i'm honored to have you here. >> in a move sure to please donald trump's most ardent supporters vice president mike pence praised joe arpaio. the former arizona sheriff known for his department's relentless persecution and profiling of people who appeared to be latino. arpaio became the recipient of trump's first presidential pardon after being convicted of criminal contempt in 2016. he is currently running for a u.s. senate seat in arizona. of course he is. joining me now to discuss maria

kumar and maria elena. thank you both for being here. i just want to remind people of what sheriff arpaio was actually charged with and convicted of criminal contempt of court for dis i obeying a 2011 court order to stop racially profiling latinos in his maricopa county office. what does it say to you that he was, a, donald trump's first pardon and that, b, mike pence is now praising him on the campaign trail? >> it's really unconscionable. we're talking about mike pence just talked about him having an upstanding and supporting the rule of law when, in fact, it's the complete opposite. the fact that you have a sheriff that is supposed to be enforcing the rule of law being found in criminal contempt for engaging in racial profiling, basically arresting people without any reasonable suspicion of them committing a crime except for the soul purpose of detaining people who looked brown or black, who looked in his mind to

be undocumented. >> you have now donald trump not just supporting and pardoning joe arpaio but acting like him. nbc news reporting that the trump administration is not going to build shelters at the border for migrants who are seeking asylum. they want them to wait and they want the american public to see how many people are trying to exploit the loophole in the asylum system. it's a different strategy from years past according to a republican congressman aide. literally leaving them out in the sun. >> so when you say that he's following the playbook of joe arpaio, let's not forget that joe arpaio did exactly that, he had what they called tent cities that was likened to concentration camps by joe arpaio himself. so when he said that he was done for criminal contempt, that he was actually found to be guilty of racial profiling, that was the least of his -- i have his errors. what's very sad that this idea that donald trump is going to force individuals that are already fleeing violence,

they're fleeing unusual circumstances and leaving them out in the cold, that's not what america is about. we have a nation of laws, so legally these individuals once they get into a port of entry they are allowed by law to seek asylum. we should be providing them shelter, providing them -- recognizing their hardship and recognizing at the end of the day these are the values we claim to tout as americans and we really want to make sure when these individuals get here that they are processed properly. the majority of these individuals right now in the caravan that many people are talking about they are disproportionately children and mothers. >> and we should note that u.s. officials are going to let them seek asylum despite what trump has said, the "washington post" reported that this week, they will be allowed to seek asylum. what the trump campaign is doing in response to that, rather than just say, okay, our own government has said they're going to keep doing this, trump is now campaigning on this caravan, it's become a campaign issue. i don't know if everybody can see that on the screen, but i've ordered the department of homeland security to stop all cap the caravan of illegal

immigrants trying to cross our wide open border. he is president now. we need a strong impenetrable all caps wall. i want every liberal obstructionist senator to see the names of every patriot demanding we build the wall. it's actually become an issue he's whipping up his base on. >> absolutely. this is part and parcel of this administration, the heat contribution, the exploitation of people who are coming here as maria said to seek safety, to seek freedom because they are fleeing persecution and they are afraid they will be killed. this isn't new. central american mothers and children have been coming for the last few years. i had the honor and deep despair of interviewing some of these mothers and teenage girls myself. the gender-based violence in the northern triangle of central america is of horrific epidemic levels and we are talking about every 16 hours in honduras a woman is killed.

this is a president who is also looking at actually ending potentially domestic violence as one of the bases for which a domestic violence survivor could seek asylum in our country. >> i do believe the tps was also withdrawn for people from he will salvador or honduras maybe. >> that's 57,000 people that have basically lived in this country for over 20 years that all of a sudden yesterday found out that they are no longer eligible, they are undocumented. and the trajectory of this administration by 2020 the president's directive are going to make close to half a million people that were here documented undocumented overnight. so i think what we really need to do is start drilling down and recognizing who is benefiting, profiting out of these individuals that are once documented, legally here, all of a sudden becoming undocumented. that is the private detention system who literally a week after the president was elected they started rallying their stock prices because they were making a lot of money. that's unconscionable.

>> the other beneficiary may be republicans running for election and reelection. donald trump is clearly intending to use the caravan and the immigration issue for politics. this was donald trump yesterday at the nra convention, which is supposed to be about guns, he veered into this conversation about immigration. >> democrats and liberals in congress want to disarm law abiding americans, at the same time they are releasing dangerous criminal aliens, and savage gang members on to our streets. these countries send up their worst. do you remember in my opening speech i got criticized for it. remember? well, guess what, they are not sending their finest. >> he is doubling down on mexicans sending their worst, sending the criminals. characterizing everyone that's coming over the border as a dangerous criminal alien. i mean, unfortunately that electoral strategy can be very effective, you know. >> yeah, this is the fear mongering that this president is

so good at doing and exploiting and, in fact, what we have in this country right now is that the republican party has sent us their worst. the president of the united states who at this moment is basically attacking all of our communities and radically changing the direction of our country. i mean, as maria theresa was saying he is not only attacking undocumented i'm grants he is radically trying to change our legal immigration system, restricting family immigration. over the next days, weeks, we are expecting yet another proposed rule from this administration that would basically radically change the way that families could be reunited, who is eligible for a green card, if a u.s. citizen child receives any kind of state or local or federal public benefit, healthcare, et cetera, safety net programs, that could be used basically to separate them from their mother. >> lastly, last word to you, maria theresa, you have seven states led by texas suing to end daca all together, we know these state gambits can be effective politics, it was done against

obamacare. what do you make of that? >> it's another political employee and i think it's going to be a rallying cry come the midterm elections not just for the la the know vote but also americans who recognize what is happening is unjust and unfair. texas should bear caution because right now when you look at the polls for the very first time o'rourke a democrat is actually within shooting range of beating dted cruz. if you want to know what is rallying the base it's basically unjust laws, discriminatory purposes of dividing americans and the american people are not going to take it. >> thank you both. coming up in the senate -- the senate race in west virginia is getting all kinds of weird. more on that next.

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the west virginia republican primary to challenge senator joe manchin is getting weird, really, really weird. >> both these gentlemen mentioned that we had rules that you couldn't bring paper, you couldn't bring props. you were going to bring props and we had to kind of take them away from you and you had these hats that said ditch mitch. you wanted to wear one of these hats and it was against the rules so we said no to that, but

you have called the senate majority leader a host of different names, including most recently cocaine mitch. >> yeah, that's a real thing. more on cocaine mitch after the break. stay with us. (baby crying) ♪ ♪ don't juggle your home life and work life without it. ♪ ♪ and don't forget who you're really working for without it. ♪ ♪ funding to help grow your business... ♪ ♪ another way we have your back. ♪ ♪ the powerful backing of american express. don't do business without it. the powerful backing of american express. a hilton getaway means you get more because... you get another day in paradise. get a sunset on a sunday. get more stories to share. get more from your summer getaway with exclusive hilton offers. book yours, only at hilton.com

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yet it's very gentle on the denture itself. polident consists of 4 powerful ingredients that work together to deep clean your denture in hard to reach places. swamp captain mitch mcconnell has created millions of jobs for china people. while doing so mitch has gotten rich. in fact, his china family has given him tens of millions of

dollars. mitch's swamp people are now running false negative ads against me. they are also childishly calling me despicable and mentally ill. the war to drain the swamp and create jobs for west virginia people has come. i will beat joe manchin and ditch cocaine mitch for the sake of the kids. >> after serving prison time for his role in a mine disaster that killed 29 people, if you're don blank ship you run for u.s. senate and do it by attacking your own party leader by accusing of getting rich by helping his china family, a reference to elaine chow who is chinese american. that cocaine mitch is a time a coring goe ship owned by chow's family was reportedly caught transporting 90 pounds of cocaine but there is no evidence of any connection between that incident and mcconnell for his wife. mcconnell has refused to comment

directly but his office pointed nbc to us to a comment by his former chief of state, quote, this unclown is a walking talking case for the study of the limitations of prison's ability to rehabilitate. he is a walking talking case study for prison's inability to rehabilitation. we always like to give cayden the challenging cases to talk about. let me play -- the china person thing was weird and it's one of those things where he could have maybe just misspoken and he just said it and it tumbled out wrong but he has doubled down on it. ali vitali asked him about china person and here is what he said. >> the phrase china person, people are offended still. >> well, they shouldn't be. i mean, i'm a west virginia person, you are an nbc person. you know, in order to have a racist statement you have to mention a race or derogatory

comment about a race. >> and then he tells roll call -- this is his quote to roll call where, we're confused on our staff as to how it can be racist when there is no mention of a race. theres no race. races are negro, white caucasian, it sounds like double, hispanic, asian, there's no mention of a race, i've never used a race word. i don't understand this candidacy, cayden, i don't understand any of that. why is he still viable? >> he's viable because he has a lot of money. >> yeah. >> this is a guy -- this is a guy who funded 40 candidates, republican candidates, trying to win state house seats in west virginia. so it's a little reminiscent of the alabama spectacle. what i will tell you is, i mean, wheth where the guy has made a tactical mistake is first getting in the race, second is mitch mcconnell who probably has 2% name id in the primary in

west virginia and second of all anybody that wants to punch mitch mcconnell in the gut is making a mistake. that guy is tactically smart, good at what he does and understands how to take somebody down out of a race the best he can. so i have all the respect for majority leader mcconnell and at the end of the day i looked at called into west virginia yesterday, joy, and got a sense of the race and joe manchin has been in the state house, the state senate, has been the secretary of state, has been governor, most of those all won by double digits is one of the last of a dying breed of what i would call a moderate to conservative democrat in washington. so thinking that that's a race where we are going to spend a lot of money is probably not tactically smart. this is a guy that worries me if he decides to run on the democratic ticket for president. that's how serious i take joe

manchin. >> cayden would know, he understands these races a lot. it's interesting to me, this is a poll from a few weeks ago that showed evan jenkins, a congressman from west virginia and patrick morrissy who is the current attorney general is sort of neck and neck within the margin of error, four points apart and joe manchin behind. this might be cynical of me to ask this question but all the china person stuff and all that, despite the fact that he was -- he owned the mine where those 29 men died. >> it's awful. >> i don't know that i'm not convinced -- i hate to say this, but this gambit doesn't bring him up in the polls. is that too cynical. >> i don't think that's cynical at all. i mean, we have donald trump, that tells you everything that you need to know. the reason why blank ship exists is because we have donald trump. donald trump has changed the political spectrum on who can run and not run and in the folks that we thought could not run is not running. the reason why you have a roy moore, the reason why you have a trump is because of trump's comments and policies and what he's turned the republican party

into. so now they feel really comfortable to come out, these racist bigoted people and be like, yeah, i want to run for the nomination for the gop because, look at donald trump. and one more thing. it is very difficult to make mitch mcconnell into a sympathetic figure and blankenship is clearly making that happen. that is insane. >> he's going after the man's wife. joe, and you've studied southern politics, you studied bill clinton, there are tactics that work, you know, whether we like it or not. donald trump just doubled down today on mexicans and rapists and these countries are not sending their best. it's a limbic brain. and it kind of works. the other thing that works is -- it used to be clinton now it's obama. don blankenship put out an ad literally saying that president obama is who put him in prison. let's take a listen. >> did you know don blankenship's trial is was not about the mine explosion. >> really? are you sure. >> oh, yeah. the obama judge wouldn't each

let don mention the explosion and the obama prosecutors knew don had nothing to do with the explosion. >> obama prosecutors tried to put blankenship in jail for life. >> the obama team couldn't get one west virginia juror to find don guilty of any of the felony charges, 36 votes for don, zero for baum. >> put up this manifesto, it's a pamphlet, 25 pages of don blankenship calling himself an american political prisoner. basically he is a political prisoner. i don't -- i mean, it must work on some level because he's doing t right? >> it's really hard to know what to say about this, joy. listen, the -- it's absolutely correct that trump has lowered the bar for republican candidates so far in terms of the ability to express bigotry. what they say as well, we are politically incorrect, we're speaking our minds. there is a reason why in this country we spent decades making

it difficult for people to say the worst things they could possibly say about each other and making them pay a political price for that. the fact that now somebody like don blankenship a convicted criminal who was responsible for those mine deaths thinks that he can use an anti-asian slur and that that will get him votes is a very bad thing. >> go on, maria theresa. >> i think that he -- i know that he is a low energy trump but from just listening to the panel and witnessing what he just said not only about chinese americans but also what he's talking about our government and court institutions, he is actually really going in and taking a page from the trump playbook. he is talking about trade for these folks, he's talking about coal, talking about trade. and that is what people are hearing when they say -- when he hears china man they're saying these are people that basically want to come in and take away my jobs. when he starts talking about obama and government and courts,

he is feeding into the alt-right idea that you can't get a fair day in court, that all of a sudden our court systems are prosecuting systems are completely tainted we hen it cos to a fair trial. that is slippery but dangerous and there is a section of americans that are increasingly believing in that because they are in an echo chamber, a media echo chamber where that is all they're hearing and he's reinforcing that. the narrative that he's playing is actually something that we have to be very cautious about because we're going to start seeing it more and more. >> i have to say i agree with that. i think that democrats who are high-fiving and hoping that don blankenship is the nominee, while i agree with you, kate, i think that joe manchin is one of the strongest incumbents the democrats have in terms of he knows that state and he knows his voters and he knows how to win, but don blankenship in a sense, i mean, this is -- i want to play you a mash up of some voters and these are voters talking about don blankenship. one of them is related to one of the coal miners who died in that

mine disaster for which blankenship ultimately wound up spending some jail time. >> one of the 29 coal miners that died in the explosion was my brother and i'm one of quite a few family members that support him. the other, the fake news that we don't support him, that is not true. >> i'm definitely supporting don blankenship right now. >> okay. >> one of the major reasons is his coal background, you know, this is coal country. >> he knows the coal industry. this state is coal. >> explain this to us, please, cayden, because you have people, even people who are related to some of those miners who died in that tragic accident saying, do you know what, don blankenship is a coal man, that's all we care about. >> it makes sense to me. about when they are talking about -- i see the interview and your heart goes out to the lady whose brother died. if you've ever worked in west virginia it's a beautiful state, it's coal driven, the economies

especially in rural west virginia are coal. and blank shenship is one of th largest cole companies and ceos and he has also been a tremendous supporter of the republican party in west virginia so they know him. that in person he hadn't been on the ballot, you've got the attorney general who is pretty popular, you're going to come up against another guy who is 100% for coal, joe manchin. that will inoculate that. i understand some of that. remember in republican primaries and democratic primaries 11 to 14% of the available voters is who is going to pick your nominees. that is a small universe and a low turn out season that we're going to have because there is no presidential contest on the ballot. so anything can happen. but i'm going to lay my odds on the attorney general winning that primary. i'm going to also lay odds on a lot of money between now and election day is going to be spent trying to help don blankenship win because that is another gift to the democratic party in november, but, again, i'm going to lay my odds the

representative is well liked in his district so we'll see. stranger things have happened, say, alabama, and there we go again. >> strange things just keep happening. this he just keep happening. make it stop. joe, careen, maria, cayden, great panel, thank you very much. up next, trump's former doctor finally admits what we all suspected. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion,

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♪ what exactly were they looking for? >> all of the medical records. pictures anything i could find. they must have been here for 25 or 30 minutes. they created a lot of chaos. >> this week donald trump's personal physician harold borinstein keith schiller a trump employee along with another man stormed into his office and seized all of trump's medical records. you may remember borestein claiming trump would be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency. end quote.

now he admits what others have suspected? >> i also will tell you that let that showed up in the "times," he wrote it himself. you know that? >> yeah. >> he wrote it himself. >> joining me now is dr. corey aber. we call him dr. common sense around these parts. dr., what do you make of this? bornstein, bornstein admitting that donald trump dictated the medical sort of clearance letter that he released. your thoughts? >> well, joy, i hate to be this guy and say, america, i told you so, but guess what, i told you so. i mean, let's just start from the top. we know what trump did and bornstein did. it was unethical. it was morally reprehensible. it flies in the face of democracy. this is about two things deceit

and hubris. and mental instability. what they basically did was allow someone to write their own medical record. think about that, who does that, and then use superlative language like you're the healthiest person that ever delivered. we all knew that was donald trump. the fact that he put this albeit weird doctor, doctor, in that place, constitutes fraud it really does. >> it might just not been one doctor. dr. ronny jackson from the obama administration, they loved him. they thought he was great. then he come out in january and talks about donald trump ace physical presence. anyone who has followed over the decades knows he has about on session with great genes with his having great genes. this is dr. ronny jackson in

january. >> some people have just great genes. i told the president that he got healthier over the last 20 years, he might live to 200 years old. i don't know. he has incredible genes. i just assume. zblch what >> what's the code of ethics of doctors adopting the patient ace view of themselves, rather than the actual view? >> i mean, this is something that really could be brought up on charges through your state medical board. and this is the new york state board. you got to think about this. what i think trump and his group has done and what they're trying to do is systematically degrade anything that could put a check on trump's power. and they wanted to grade that, any institution that has been impartial, they want to corrupt it to the core. that's what they've been doing. johnny jackson, bornstein. and you've got this and now they're stepping on my toes if you really want to think about this, too, there's really two

issues. and i'm going to say it quickly. you want to think about the hipaa issues. we exchange with doctors all the rhyme. but it has to be in the right format. i have to get a form to clear a person and allow that form to go to another doctor. the form has to be right. also, a new york state doctor has to keep a medical record in his office for six years after the patient leaves. so when they seized those records that means they took the originals, not the copies. dr. bornstein is actually in trouble. once again, trumps friends may be in trouble as well. >> and let's list ten to dr. bornstein. >> i wouldn't believe anybody was making a big deal about a drug to grow his hair which seemed so important. and it's certainly not a breach of medical trust to tell somebody to take propecia to

grow their hair. what's the matter with that? >> why would donald trump be upset about being known to take propecia? >> well, a couple things there. first of all, you really can't tell anyone that someone else takes a medicine. that is unethical. so, that's wrong. number two, propecia is to grow hair and benign prostate which is something that happened to old guyguys. you went someone to know that, he thinks he's 45, but he's not, in more ways than one. >> dr. corey hebert, i want to say thank you and guide bye. more "am joy" after this break. have you smelled this

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so all you pay for is data. choose by the gig or unlimited. and see how you could save $400 or more a year. xfinity mobile. it's a new kind of network designed to save you money. click, call, or visit an xfinity store today. that is our show for today. "am joy" will be back tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern. up next, my friend alex witt has the latest. happy cinco de mayo. >> we can be margaritas after the show. good day, i'm alex witt. 9:00 a. 12:00 p.m. in the east, 9:00 a.m. in the west. and what did trump know about the payment to stormy daniels befo months before the denial? >> did you know ab