for summer travel. today's average price $2.84. a year ago it was $2.33. so that is what you're seeing. this is how oil prices affect you. that wraps it up for me. "deadline white house" with nicolle wallace starts right now. >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in washington. rudy giuliani suddenly has more time on his hands. "the new york times" today reporting he severed ties with his law firm. by his telling so he can focus on the president's legal woes, but the firm has a different version of events. one theme became abundantly clear this afternoon, giuliani had time to talk to us. we spoke to the mayor for about 20 minutes. he told us that bob mueller is the very same man he first met when they worked together after 9/11. giuliani was the mayor of new york city. mueller the fbi director. but he thinks deputy attorney general rod rosenstein who appointed him as special counsel, quote, put him in that position when i asked him what position, he said, quote, to

steam roll the president. he also told us that he doesn't know if bob mueller has the president's tax returns and what they would tell an investigator about the president's ties to russia. he said that he and jay sekulow and others of the president's attorneys, quote, aren't there yet on recommending an interview for the president with the special counsel and that he didn't, quote, get tripped up during last week's media interviews when he suggested that the president knew about cohen's payments to porn star stormy daniels. and on that payment, he insists that the president didn't violate campaign finance laws because, one, the payments would have been made even if mr. trump were not a candidate to spare the family embarrassment. and, two, the money was repaid by the president to cohen. and on this picture of rudy at the yankee game, he told me he was texting yankee friends, not the president or bob mueller. but giuliani also responded to "the new york times" report which details a more abrupt departure from his law firm

reporting on tensions about hush payments to a porn star. firm partners had chafed over mr. giuliani's public comments about payments that other of mr. trump's lawyers, michael d. cohen, made to secure the silence of a pornographic film actress who said she had an affair with mr. trump. we also learned from the times that this comment from giuliani didn't sit well with his former colleagues. >> that was money that was paid by, by his lawyer the way i would do out of his law firm funds. michael would take care of things like this like i take care of things like this for my clients. >> his former employer now setting the record straight, telling the times, quote, speaking for ourselves, we would not condone payments of the nature alleged to have been made or otherwise without the knowledge and direction of a client. i read sections of that "the new york times" article to the former mayor who said to me about his former firm's response. quote, they don't know what

they're talking about. we do this all the time. they do this all the time. for their clients. here to talk about all of this, "the new york times" reporter mike schmidt, washington post bureau chief phil rucker also an msnbc analyst, former democratic congresswoman donna edwards, and matt miller, former chief spokesman for the justice department and an msnbc analyst. i blame you for the 20 minutes that i spent inside rudy giuliani's head which was a divine pleasure. came at a time of day when i'm usually getting ready for the show. but take us through what you reported and what you understand now to be two pretty different versions of events about his break up with his law firm. >> so, we saw the comments that were out there that he had made and we realized that was probably not how the firm was supposed to function when he said this is how my firm works. and it didn't seem totally kosher the way he was describing it. so we went to the firm, we repeatedly asked them over the past few days, is this how you guys do this?

is this your practice? and they delayed and delayed and delayed, telling us, and then finally today after they put out the statement severing the relationship, they give us this. and they really sort of threw him under the bus. i was a bit surprised by that. >> it's crowded under there because he then turned around and threw them under the bus and he said they do this all the time. >> they're firing at each other over the issue. i think it was pretty clear what he was talking about when he was on television. i'm not sure what his response is. >> i thought it was striking. i said you and i both worked in the bush administration. you were the mayor, bob mueller was the fbi director. has bob mueller changed? i watched your attacks on the special counsel. it seems like you don't remember the man that you worked hand in hand with after 9/11. and he said he put all of the blame on rosenstein. does that surprise you? >> no, but it's interesting how they sort of hit the gas and take it off on the criticisms. do they want to go after mueller? is this a witch hunt for mueller? is this more rosenstein? where are they going to put the

blame? it's sort of interesting. it comes back to rosenstein's decision to move the things to new york about michael cohen. he took that out of mueller's hands. that made it much more difficult for giuliani and the president to criticize mueller. it's harder to say it's a witch hunt when there is another part of the justice department that's looking at this other issue that seems so central to the president. a phil rucker, what do you make of -- rudy, we invited him to be on the show. he's still invited. my phone is open. you have my number. he wanted the president to have an opportunity to draw attention to an undeniable victory, the return of three detainees from north korea. but just the way he talks so loosely about these events that are -- it's really a precision exercise, all these legal machineations, the way he talked about it with me today, he seemed to break new ground every time he opens his mouth. >> it's the rudy show, week two, coming on week three. we know in the past from donald trump that he likes it until he

does president like it and he doesn't like his aides and rudy giuliani right now is a staffer, an aide, a lawyer to the president. he doesn't like them sucking up all the attention and the oxygen. he likes some of that for himself. tru trump has a rally tonight in elk heart, indiana. he'll be on stage having little sleep. he wants that attention for himself, the spotlight for himself. he doesn't like that rudy giuliani has to keep cleaning up these statements. >> donna, you're a lawyer. >> i am. >> what do you think about he's insisting under the law he was correct to say there was no campaign finance violations because the president would have entered into this nda with the porn star with whom he allegedly had a sexual relationship whether he was running for president or not? and that the president repaid the money to cohen. it seems like he gets himself back to the starting line, which is where the president went out two days later and said, oh, rudy is still getting his facts straight. nobody suggested other than rudy that rudy had the right fact

pattern with that. >> well, and the first fact started with the president saying there was no connection, there was no payment, i didn't know anything about it. then you go to the issue of like the timing. i mean, it was a couple weeks before the election. >> you're suddenly worried about embarrassing your wife? >> that's right, that that was really avoiding the strictures of the campaign finance law. a lot of it seems to suggest it may have been a campaign finance violation. >> what do you make of the broader sort of posture that rudy is taking on, you know, time to wrap things up? he kept saying we've given bob mueller 1.2 million documents. i said, when you met with him, did bob mueller seem satisfied? he seemed satisfied with document production. >> it's a long time since rudy giuliani has practiced this kind of law. i think he had this misconception who he is and how big-time investigations work,

that he would walk in here, sprinkle some pixie dust and remind everyone who he is, and the stature he used to hold and bring this to a close. that's not how investigation kz work. maybe negotiate with the president. you can't walk in and tell a federal prosecutor wrap this up. when he was u.s. attorney, if somebody told him that he would throw them out of the office in an instant. you talk about him being at the yankees game last night. i heard people say he lost his fast ball. he lost his fast ball, change up. i'm not into giving the trump team free communication. stop talking. he creates new problems every time he does an interview. >> you published the questions bob mueller has for the president. it seems like rudy doesn't have his arms around why cohen was of interest to bob mueller in the first place. and the fact that the other matters were referred to the southern district doesn't mean

that he isn't still a figure, a witness potentially a subject. we don't have any indication he's a target in the collusion or obstruction investigation. there are things that pertain to what cohen has firsthand knowledge of, right? >> the thing about cohen in this whole thing, everyone thinks just because parts of it are in new york doesn't mean parts of it are not down here with bob mueller. but there are significant questions about cohen on the russia investigation. he's in the dossier we know the dossier is part of the allegations that they're looking at. there are allegations about meetings that he had. there are questions about his efforts to do russian real estate deals during the campaign. so, there is this whole notion that, like, oh, michael cohen is a new york thing. it's not a washington problem, it's not a mueller issue. but i don't think they're mutually exclusive. they're not. >> and you've also reported that bob mueller subpoenaed trump organizations. a th that could well include cohen's conduct. he did his dealings with stormy

daniels's attorney on his donald trump.org e-mail. that would encompass cohen's activities as well. >> trump.org knew about the payments. they have some roll in this. and we get back to this sort of question that we screwed up a little bit with the president as we tried to figure it out, was this red line of what is it that's okay and not okay for bob mueller to do? so now it's not mueller that's looking at the nitty-gritty finances of him, but certainly the cohen stuff out of new york does go beyond that red line, is looking at his finances, but it's the justice department that's doing it. maybe that's why he criticizes rosenstein. rosenstein is the one that made that decision. >> rudy is his lawyer now in the mueller probe. doesn't know if mueller has his taxes or not? >> i don't think they would -- i think they have to assume he has them. if you talk to any white collar legal expert, they would say that's the first thing that they

go for. but i'm not sure rudy is as well versed in all of these facts. >> me, too, i love talking to him. we talked about season two or week two, whatever episode we're in. michael avenatti is one of the figures we're in, season two, a regular on the show. we enjoy our conversations with him. he had to correct some of the information that was in his report, but he did detail, you know, the new development that brings us back to what frank figliuzzi described yesterday as this is what collusion looks like. he showed russian oligarch in a financial arrangement with michael cohen and that seems like the kind of matter that would still be very much of interest to bob mueller and additional reporting both of your papers that bob mueller wanted to know about other people that were doing business with michael, big companies like novartis and at&t. so bob mueller is still very much following the money. >> that's right. as much as became disclosed this

week about cohen's finances, there is so much we don't know. we don't know what else he was getting paid from other companies. all we know is the transactions from that set period of time and importantly we don't know what sort of favors he called in to the administration or the president himself if, in fact, he d. whid. what was he doing for at&t besides offering insights. >> the president was on twitter attacking the merger. i saw you guys press sarah huckabee sanders yesterday. did you get -- >> no, they have had no answers. they're referring a lot of the questions as is their prerogative to outside counsel. but they're not providing clear information about what the president knew about this arrangement. you would expect, for example, if a company were paying michael cohen hundreds of thousands of dollars for his insight and access to the white house, that there would be something he would have done. maybe there was the at&t merger deal potentially. if you're talking about the russian oligarch paying for some of this, was there a call that he made to the national security council when flynn was there

potentially? i don't know. but those are a lot of the questions i imagine mueller's team is trying to figure out. >> i asked rudy about flynn. i said, i said, do you question the legitimacy of either the obstruction of justice investigation or the collusion investigation? and he said, that's not it. he said it's just gone on long enough because certainly you couldn't question the legitimacy of an investigation that has yielded guilty pleas from men like mike flynn. he said, well, that didn't tie back to russia. we don't know that, do we? isn't that still a known unknown? we don't know what bob mueller has learned from mike flynn now that he essentially works for bob mueller. >> that's right. we know what the indictments have been, but the indictments are there as place holders to make certain that the mueller team gets the rest of the information. and i think, you know, one of the mistakes of -- many mistakes rudy giuliani makes is the idea that somehow there is a time limit on the investigation. there was not in the founding

documents for the special counsel and there is not, and he can't rush it. and mueller doesn't appear to be susceptible to that kind of rushing anyway. and rod rosenstein, i have to say i know him from maryland. he's a total straight arrow. he's a republican. and he's not going to be pushed either. i think he's made that clear over the last two weeks. >> so, the most stunning thing that to me came out of giuliani's mouth was that this was a play by rosenstein to steam roll the president. why even in their minds -- i don't know if you want to spend a lot of time there, but why even in their minds would donald trump's appointed dag have a strategy to steam roll the president? >> especially if you think back in the time line of when rod rosenstein appointed bob mueller, it was a week, week and like ten days after the president fired jim comey which rod rosenstein had signed off and recommended. rose e rosenstein was a member in good standing of the president's administration.

he provided cover for this very controversial act. the idea ten days later he turned around and was suddenly out to get the president makes no sense. i think what happened is he did what any good prosecutor would do. there are two things. he did what any new prosecutor would do. he saw the memos come out, comey's memos of obstruction of justice. he needed to do something to clean up his own reputation after signing offer the memo. he appointed jim comey -- >> bob mueller a. bob mueller. it had nothing to do with getting out after the president. it had to do with disturbing facts that came to light. >> what do you make of the idea of the sort of public musings about presidential interview with bob mueller that jay and rudy aren't there yet? >> they seem to -- we've heard this from the legal team for months now, we're a week away from making a decision, week away from making a decision and it continues to drag. but rudy has even said he doesn't want it to happen before

the north korea meeting. now we have a date on that. so, then you have to prepare the president for this. it's not like you take him and throw him in there and say, okay, here's the interview. there's deep concerns about the president, what he would say and he needs to be prepared for these things. john dowd at one point wanted the president to go in and read a script. so, i don't know when this is going to happen. >> what do you make of the idea that this is all, you know, rudy talked as much about foreign policy as he did about the mueller probe. everyone is all mixed together in trump landia. it is very much a consideration, the question of the interview has to be timed after the north korea meetings and you have a great piece we're going to get to about how north korea is now not just a reason to delay an interview with bob mueller, but a midterm strategy. we've never seen this before, all these issues smashed together. >> remember rudy giuliani hasn't practiced law in a long time. but a year and a half ago he was

in the running to be secretary of state. trump nearly picked him until he decided he wasn't up for that job and went with rex tillerson instead. he sees himself much more of a lawyer than a legal sort of wartime consigliary, a big thinker, as someone who wants to talk to the president about all sorts ofish other us and someone who wants to talk to you about all sorts of -- >> i don't know, i don't think he'll be calling any time soon. when we come back, you heard it here first. foreign policy, great phil rucker and his reporting about how the president used his bold moves on the world stage as a political insurance policy. also ahead, former cia director john brennan weighs in on the dangers of an impulsive president as the steward of our national security as well as those mccain excerpts just out that point to putin's motive to defeat the west. are we doing enough to protect ourselves? and for all the talk about a slow motion saturday night massacre, how about this. republicans obstructing justice in plain sight and with a green light from the speaker of the

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so, i want to thank you all. it's very early in the morning. i think you probably broke the all-time in history television rating for 3:00 in the morning. that i would say. >> because that's what everyone thinks of when three men detained in north korea come home. once again, the president unprompted stepping all over his own great moment early this morning, but perhaps that offhand comment, if you can even call it that, wasn't so offhand at all. it may be an indication that the president is actively trying to read the political benefits of

diplomacy with north korea. earlier today the president announced the summit with north korean dictator kim jong-un would happen on june 12 in singapore. that is a potentially historic foreign policy achievement. but it may also be his midterm message. phil rucker writes in the washington post, quote, by making brash and risky moves on the world stage from shredding the iran nuclear deal to negotiating nuclear armaments, he has a chance for voters to weigh his presidency. they have good reasons not only foreign policy, but also a growing economy to protect his presidency from the threats posed by the russia investigation. not to mention impeachment charges that democrats might file next year should they retake control of the house in the midterm election. steve schmidt joins us in the flesh today. we came to you. see, that's how big you are now. what do you make of this ratings talk at 3:00 a.m., we have three detainees, you know, clear-cut

victory for the president, these people finally reunited with their families and he's talking about 3:00 a.m. rate ings? >> he has a complete incapacity for human empathy. you have three prisoners of the north korean slave state, one who had been kept underground or in a cell absent any sunlight who asked to step off the plane in alaska so he can see the sun. and it's about donald trump. it's about the ratings. it's not a game. when he took his oath of office, he swore to preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the united states. he works for the american people. so, it's a great day because three of our country men are back home in this country where they belong, not in the north korean slave state. but it's not about donald trump. it's about those men. it's about their families. it's about all of us. and he just doesn't seem capable intellectually or emotionally of understanding any of that. >> i want to show you what he

thinks about his chances of winning a prize. >> do you deserve the nobel prize, do you think? >> everyone thinks so, but i would never say. >> just another exhibit of -- >> it reminds me, there was somewhere i was traveling when i was a kid. we wanted to stop at mcdonald. it was mac donald's. maybe there is a different nobel prize. there is no accomplishment that happened. we're talking about this meeting in north korea like something has been achieved. nothing has been achieved. it may be geo politically and strategically a mistake to elevate kim jong-un to the world stage as a peer of the president of the united states ending the international isolation. one thing is clear. he has nuclear weapons. he has a ballistic missile program. he has threatened to aim and target and use those weapons against the united states. seoul is ranged with 12,000 north korean artillery pieces

and the casualty estimates for war, should it break out on the korean peninsula, over a million dead in the first day. this is deadly serious business. this is not an episode of the apprentice. and what we know from history is that miscalculations by leaders at dangerous places in the world can lead to epic human tragedy. so, everybody should breathe deeply, hope for the best. we want a more peaceful world. but the carnival antics that surround high-stakes diplomacy with this president should be alarming to people. >> phil, what you reported out is really the juxtaposition of what steve describes, which is really the most dire kind of foreign policy. i know from a lot of former and current members of his national security team they spend the vast majority of their time down in the sit room becoming more and more alarmed by what's going on in north korea. this is a real national security threat. but they see it -- the president

sees it as a political opportunity in the mid terms. this is what he plans to run on. >> he does it, he sees it not just as a political k58 opportunity for the party he's going to be leading to potential defeat if the forecasts today are correct, he also sees it as a way to remind his base there is something to fight for in protecting his presidency, that this threat of mull you are mue people need to stand up and protect him. it's not just about him being president, it's about getting a deal in north korea, keeping the economy going and so forth. that's why trump is trying to politicize these moments like we saw overnight at the home coming ceremony. >> how about his central indictment of the iran deal was trump and kerry wanted it too much. doesn't this take away all the leverage in dealing with north korea when the north koreans know this is all he has to avoid impeachment? >> that is pretty much what every foreign policy has to say.

pulling out of the iran deal as did he could be potentially so detrimental to the north korean hopes because how can they think that the u.s. is going to honor its word in north korea if they didn't honor its word in iran? the president sees it differently, but he's also not a foreign policy and diplomatic expert. >> no, he's not. donna, tell me how democrats root for what steve articulated, peace in a region where lots of lives are at stake, but go toe to toe with a president who plans to take these foreign policy messages to the country as his midterm strategy? >> i think the question is what kind of message. i mean, right now we should be celebrating the release of these three americans last night and nobody can take that away. but the question is what the president has at the negotiating table, and i'm not really clear what's going to happen on june 12th and whether that will be something he can carry into the midterms. and i think it is important still for democrats and individual, you know, house districts to carry a message about what they will do for the

country. but at the same time, you know, the president can't get out of the mueller investigation because he has a win on foreign policy. it just doesn't work like that. first of all, most americans don't care about wins on foreign policy. >> all right. that's true. do you want to weigh in on that? >> we can go back to george herbert walker bush. we can look at the first gulf war, which was a enormous success. you saw half a million american forces take down saddam hussein's army, liberate kuwait in a couple weeks. the president had a 91% approval rating and he was defeated by bill clinton. a little bit over a year later. now, the chinese have retaliated for the trade war instigated and started by donald trump, and they canceled billions of dollars of soybean orders. so, i was in iowa last week talking to farmers and they couldn't careless about stormy daniels. it sounded like they were parroting the talking points off of sean hannity show. when i asked them, are you

concerned about the soybean cancellation? they said absolutely. they immediately became sophisticated agri businessmen. they said, when you lose a market and it goes to brazil, supply chain, shipping routes, it doesn't come back. i said, who will you blame for that? they go, donald trump. and i said, well, you blame donald trump for that? they said, yeah, he started the trade war. they're aware of it. so, it's always the economy. what remains true is you have 44% of people in this country who don't have $400 cash emergency value. we're not seeing real wage increases, not seeing real wage growth. you look at tpp in the pacific that sent the signal we're withdrawing. we're with treating, we're in decline and all of these things are inter linked. >> up next, former cia director john brennan joins us here to weigh in on the dangers of a president who praises one autocrat while ignoring the threat from another. a c-anythi. but i've got an idea sir. get domo.

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we want to thank kim jong-un who really was excellent to these three incredible people. they are really three incredible people. >> from little rocketman to excellent. seems like the president has changed his tune on dictator kim jong-un. joining us former cia director and now with msnbc and nbc. can you explain for me and the viewers why no previous american president ever got to this point? does this get more difficult from this moment on? >> first of all it's great that three american citizens have returned home. i mean, we should not diminish at all the significance of that. that is good. but now we are on the eve of a summit meeting between the president of the united states, the most powerful person in the world, and kim jong-un, the leader of north korea who is a

bloody and murder rust desk pot who has wanted to have the world stage before with an american president. and what has he actually given for that? over the last year and a half or so he accelerated the program. he has now conducted six nuclear tests. he said he's going to destroy the test site. reports are it has collapsed. he has smartly, masterfully -- kim jong-un? >> kim jong-un expertly saber rattled so he can switch and appear much more accommodating and present a more peaceful face. so now we've gone from mr. trump calling him rocketman and sick puppy to honorable and nice. >> and excellent. >> and excellent. and so i do think that kim jong-un, who i despise because of the brutality he put on the people, he manipulated

perceptions and duped mr. trump. i hope the summit meeting will result in a denuclearization of the korean peninsula. >> what are the odds? >> probably less than .1%. i don't think he's going to do it. i think he is going to pause. he has worked over the last six years and his father worked to have this nuclear capability as a way to deter foreign military aggression led by the united states and south korea. i don't see any scenario he is going to give that up quickly, willingly, and so i think what he's trying to do is to, again, present an appearance of accommodation. he is going to put on pause a program that already has developed a nuclear stockpile. he has ballistic missile capability already and so if he says he's not going to do anything more, it's going to buy him time. what he's trying to do is get sanctions relaxed so he can help his economy while maintaining that nuclear capability. this is going to drag on -- >> did we gain leverage or lose leverage when that happens? >> i think we have lost some leverage because now kim jong-un

is looked upon worldwide because of the way mr. trump has presented him -- >> very honorable and excellent. >> as somebody we can work with and negotiate with. i'm glad they're negotiating, talking united states and north korea. mike pompeo talking. i think it is important north korea and south korea are bringing tensions down along the border. i think what kim jong-un is counting on is having relaxed pressure on him from china, from south korea, from the united states so that he can maintain that nuclear capability. let's not forget, he already has nuclear capability unlike iran that was prevented from obtaining one. so, again, i think he's been quite masterful. i think it's deliberate. he's been very strategic. he escalated in order to de-escalate and reach a plateau that allows him to retain that nuclear and ballistic missile capability, draw out negotiations over time and in the meantime get the economic benefits he has been looking for. >> i want to ask you -- i want

to switch topics to russia and ask you about my old boss john mccain's excerpt from his new book. putin's goal isn't to defeat a party, he means to defeat the west. president trump seems to vary from refusing to believe what putin is doing to just not caring about it. we must fight vladimir putin as determinedly as he fights us. we will stop him when we stop letting our partisan and personal interest expose our national security interest even the integrity of our democracy and rule of law to his predation. you have testified to your dire concerns about russia's role in 2016. and i think it's your view, correct me if i'm wrong, that we are still not doing enough. it has certainly been the sworn testimony of christopher wray that he hasn't been directed by donald trump to do more, about will rogers that he has in an exasperated manner said they are not doing enough. it has been the testimony of every national security official who has been pushed largely by democrats that we are not doing

enough to protect ourselves from what john mccain describes. how worried are you about the role russia might play in 2018? >> i'm very worried. on two dimensions. one, i don't think we're doing nearly enough nationally as far as cyber security is concerned. i just heard john bolton at the white house is going to do with cyber security coordinator. what russia did in 2016 demonstrates the vulnerability of this country in that digital domain where our adversaries and mal actors can exploit everything in the domain we depend on so heavily. we're not doing enough on cyber security. on russia, i think mr. trump's policies and statements and interactions with mr. putin are really quite perplexing. >> are they perplexing or becoming more obvious? are you perplexed? >> well, i'm still perplexed as to why he is not doing what he needs to do on behalf of this country. >> why wouldn't he? >> well, you know, people have speculated and i have speculated

maybe he has something to fear from mr. putin and from russia. mr. putin -- i agree with john mccain in terms of putin looks at the world in -- through a prison of zero sum game especially when it comes to the united states. when he believes the united states is hurt or is pulling back from areas or issues, russia gains by definition. >> you mentioned that. we talked on the day the president withdrew from the iran deal, that was your point. in the vacuum, john kerry made a similar point. in the vacuum we strengthen our adversaries, adversaries like russia and iran. >> putin skpin xi jinpiand xi j demonstrating to the world they are going to engage in multi lateral initiatives while the united states looks out for its own interest first, america first, america first. that is interpreted by people around the world it is at the expense of others. i think mr. putin is continuing to try to make gains across the board and he sees opportunities now under mr. trump that the

united states is not going to be that leader of the western world that in the liberal democratic order we have been for many, many years. >> i know you spent your career -- phil rucker has a great piece out, and i've heard similar things, that he plans to talk an as yet unrealized achievement in north korea to the country as the midterm message for voting in republicans and keeping a republican majority. how does that make you feel? does it make you feel squeamish -- obviously the north koreans have access to media. the president hasn't denied this. does that make you uncomfortable? where do you think that takes us in our diplomacy? >> a lot of things president trump does makes me uncomfortable. he is a show man, a successful show man. he is on the world stage and he is able to convince people by just repeated statements of his about what he -- how he views the world and how he views --

how he pursues the policies. so, i am concerned when there are issues such as the iranian nuclear program that we had as a result of our very close work with our allies, partners, and even all the members of the u.n. security council had put that in a box basically. and he was trashing it and discard ing it simply because he promised during the campaign he would do so and because it was his predecessor who did it. and so everything that came before trump, in his view, is wrong. and so that just -- >> by every president. >> by every president. it reflects his arrogance, his self-promotion. unfortunately, his very -- he has a prism he looks at the world through as well. how is he going to manipulate perceptions and issues to advance his own personal and political issues? whether it's iran, that's what drives him every day. >> let me get you on an area of agreement. you support the appointment or nomination of gina haspel to

head the cia. why? >> she is a very experienced professional. she is somebody who is well respected in the organization. i worked with gina for many years. i think she is very much a nonpartisan, she's a political and she will speak truth to power. i do believe she is going to protect -- >> her critics think she didn't do that around the questions of enhanced interrogation. >> yes. she articulately said it was a much different time. many. us, if we look at the time, we wish we would have done some things differently. i wish i yelled more. there were people involved in that. there was a time embers in the world trade center were still berning. i think gina is going to protect the institution from being exploited and used by donald trump. and so, you know, and also gina is the best hope to keep the cia independent from what the white house is doing with so many other departments and agencies by putting people in there who are true loyalists.

so, i am very glad, i think gina is going to be a breath of fresh air at the agency. so you're going to have somebody there who knows the intelligence business and will not try to give donald trump and senior policy makers what they want in order to continue the basis along these paths. >> i understand what you're saying. thank you for spending time with us. former cia director john brennan, thank you. phil rucker, thank you. when we come back, it's throw back thursday. the vice-president channels a former president as he speaks out on robert mueller.

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he needs to conclude his investigations. >> in the interest of the country, i think it's time to wrap it up. >> i believe the time has come -- >> i would very respectfully encourage -- >> that investigation >> to bring their work to completion >> to an end. >> that was produced by our friends at morning joe. and that was vice-president mike pence with his harshest words yet for robert mueller and his investigation. words that are eerily and obviously similar to nixon nine months before his resignation. steve schmidt and matt miller have been brought back in service. pence is the authentic voice of the republican party. clarifies this year's election to ratify groveling. not at all compensating vanities which is pathetic. pence is what he is chosen to be, which is horrifying. >> he is a titanic, and i mean

titanic fraud. we have listened to this guy for many, many years in this country on his moral high horse assaulting the dignity of gay people, across the board. his moral preening is famous throughout the land. yet he is the most obsequesce of all in trump's cabinet. speaking out trump in front of trump where he compliments him on an average of 3.2 seconds. we have never seen such slobbering civility that's we do in mike pence and donald trump. it is amazing. >> i don't want you to stop talking, but i have to think of another question for you. i want to ask you if you think the people around mike pence are preparing him for any scenario,

for a scenario where vice-president pence becomes president pence. >> i wonder if they have any concept of the weakness that oozes out of this guy with his obseqiesceness. his voice in low, it's time to end the investigation. all the while the president that he serves, again, he's supposed to be serving the american people. he's the vice-president of the united states and he acts like he's the house butler at mar-a-lago. you know, again, the nonstop assault on our institutions, the justice department, the rule of law, chants of "lock her up" "lock them up" the calls for it and the assault on the intelling rit of the former director james comey, and not least robert

mueller, a combat marine veteran, decorated for valor, a person known all across this country and through his professional life for his integrity. >> right. i want to bring you want to bri in on the role republicans in the congress or playing on the investigation of robert mueller. devin nunes. he functions as the president's stooge on the house intel committee for reasons unknown to all of us. is there anyone in the administration who wants to get to to bottom of russian interference in our democracy? anyone? >> i think they actively want to interfere with the investigation because they fear it's going to bring down the president. the justice department does not turn over materials that relates to ongoing investigations because it could jeopardize

those investigations. they have walked over that line several times. the current dispute over what they turn over to devin nunes refers to information that the justice department said would jeopardize a classified source, put their life in danger. that is usually when the congress says enough, they stop. paul ryan -- nunes couldn't do this without paul ryan's backing. >> let's show everybody what we are talking about. the speaker today making abundantly clear when he had to choose sides he chose devin nunes. >> i think this request is wholly appropriate. it's completely within the scope of the investigation that's been ongoing for a while with respect to fisa. i think this is something that should have been answered a while ago. i expect we will be able to have an accommodation to answer this

question. >> do you support nunes. >> absolutely. it is an appropriate request. >> questions at the house intel committee are mixed in with questions a the senate intel committee because it puts more weight on, most people think the stakes are higher for bob mueller. you cover the justice department and the fbi. what does this do to the constitution of those buildings? >> the thing that nunes has done that has been done that has been helpful to the president was on the comey memos. they know the contours of the russia investigation. they know witnesses that have gone in and they know about the documents. theyston know what was in the comey memos. they knew if the president was going to have to answer a lot of questions he would have to answer a lot of questions about them. they were able to get the memos out. now the president's lawyers have a road map about what the contours of what mueller knows on that specific issue of the

memos are. it's very helpful to the president. i don't think we have ever -- you know this better than me -- seen a federal investigation like this where we have so much real time information about different pieces of evidence. we talk about the carter/page fisa as if it's -- >> it's crazy. a former very, very senior justice department official said you know trumps critics are playing this wrong. they should say do you want a second special counsel to look into the fisa court, buy it on. it's the most incorruptible department of the justice department. it was signed off on by four different judges. you could explain better than i can. but these are four sacred corners of the justice department completely under siege by defusses like devin nunes. >> we continue to get the rolling information about the investigation, all these different things that come out in real time as there is a special counsel looking at these thing. and i think some of it is

helpful to the president. it's just a dynamic that i don't think -- >> so this is rigged in favor of the president? >> i'm not going to use the word rigged. >> do you think there are people in the justice department and fbi who may be constitutionally open to being politically aligned with him who see it just as you described it. as the information that's coming out is ending up to be helpful to him. >> i think rod rosenstein has used it as a way to placate the far right. they wanted to impeach him, whatever they wanted to do to hold them accountable for this, he tried to buy them off through the release of these documents. it protected him politically. it's unusual someone in the sutive branch someone unclear whether he lines up with the president trying to buy off congress. it's different. >> what are the dangers long term to the justice department becoming what mike just described? >> i think in other investigations going forward it's going to be really clear that you can politicize the justice department. you know, i think, you know, in

addition to mike pence can go the sap, you have got to go right to paul ryan. he's the third in line to the presidency. and eggs the one who has actually kept devin nunes alive. i thought, stupid me, i thought that when paul ryan announced that he wasn't running for re-election. >> he would grow a spine. >> it didn't at all. it made him barrel in even in the face of what he believes the politics are going to be. >> what did democrats do? i feel like they are in a odd position of taking a harder line. this is for both of you, on defending the justice department. how do democrats sort of aid the trump appointees at d.o.j. and fbi who are under attack. >> the easy thing is you don't have to like jeff sessions or rod rosenstein -- you don't have to like their policies. i don't like many of them. democrats don't. to stand up for the rule of law. the idea is partisan. the idea that you don't turn over investigative materials in the middle of the investigation. especially when you are worried -- >> such an old tradition.

>> the justice department is worried that nunes will privately funnel this material to the president. so he knows how to prepare for an interview or how to react. these are not hard partisan questions. that until this year were settled norms on both sides of the aisle. >> this is the exact reason that paul ryan bears the chief responsibility, because he's kept devin nunes in a place where he can do exactly that. and i don't know that that's going to be enough to get around bob mueller. but it does provide the president a road map. >> we are going to sneak in one more break. then steve schmidt gets the last word.

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snoi as promised, steve schmidt. >> t-- it made me feel old yesterday when you said we wish you spoke russian. >> my thanks to my most favorite friend here today. that does it for our hour. i'm nicolle wallace. "mtp daily" starts right now with the fabulous katy tur when i'm 18 seconds late. thank god it's you. >> 21, 22, 23. >> i will give them back. i will spend all those seconds with you any time you want. >> nicolle wallace thank you very much. if it is thursday what do you want first, the good news or the bad? tonight, the vice president has a special