what? you guys have xfinity. you can do this. what's a good wifi password, mom? you still have to visit us. i will. no. make that the password: "you_stillóhave_toóvisit_us." that's a good one. [ chuckles ] download the xfinity my account app and set a password you can easily remember. one more way comcast is working to fit into your life, not the other way around. that's a wrap for this hour on msnbc live. i look forward to seeing you at noon. stay where you are, we've got a busy "a.m. joy" coming your way right now. i know the game. i mean, i understand it. and so many people have come up, lobbyists. i said i don't want money from lobbyists. the system we have is broken. a guy like bush, a guy like walker. all of these people are controlled by the people who

give them money. under my administration we're fighting against the lobbyists, the special interests and the corrupt washington politics. >> good morning, and welcome to "a.m. joy." rudy giuliani in an interview that posted last night with the "huffington post" once again directly contradicted the white house, despite working for donald trump. the comments came after reports that at&t paid trump attorney michael cohen $600,000 to advise on a potential merger with time warner. and for insight into the new administration. giuliani told the "huffington post" quote whatever lobbying was done didn't reach the president. the president denied the merger. they didn't get the result they wanted. but this morning both white house fired back. contradicting giuliani's remarks. press secretary sarah sanders telling k&n the department of justice denied the deal and reiterated the administration's past position that the president was not involved. this story has a lot of moving parts and seems to change.

but the bombshell development heard earlier this week when a document uncovered by stormy daniels' attorney revealed new information about the multipurpose shell company set up by michael cohen. that company is essential consultants. the same company formed in october of 2016 to paid $130,000 in hush money to daniels. after trump was elected president, the "washington post" reports that cohen bragged about his access to the donald, saying that he was quote crushing it. according to a document released by daniels' attorney, michael avenatti. corporations forked over millions of dollars to cohen through essential consultants. companies like columbus nova, a u.s.-based firm with ties to russian oligarch which paid cohen half a million dollars. pharmaceutical giant novartis, which confirmed it signed a $1.2 million contract with cohen. and the aforementioned at&t. which as we mentioned, paid cohen $600,000. at&t's chief executive said on

friday, that hiring cohen was quote a big mistake and announced that its top lobbying executive in washington would be leaving the firm. now we should note that one company that did resist co-'s sales pitch was ford motor company. for "the wall street journal," ford's head of government affairs rejected the offer and had no further conversations about it. joining me now is michael avenatti, stormy daniels' attorney. paul buttlebutler, msnbc local and timothy owe brian, author of "trump nation: the art of being donald." michael, we'll start with cnn which tweeted out this morning from a reporter saying new white house, while president trump was opposed to the at&t/time warner merger during the campaign and has been consistent on that, he didn't interfere with the justice department case. giuliani tells dana bash. saying he told me directly he didn't interfere. so you uncovered all of this information about the companies that were paying michael cohen.

then you have giuliani, who is supposed to be helping, come out and say, it didn't matter because he was so ineffective. he didn't help. but it was the president who came between at&t and this merger deal. what does it say to you that they're having to reverse on that. but you have giuliani, at least suggesting that there was a direct relationship paid to play for at&t. >> i'm going to push back a little bit, joy. he is helping, he's helping us. and i hope he keeps talking, because every time he talks, our case gets better. and what we're seeing is more and more vindicated. this guy is a walking train wreck. there's no other way to put it. he's a caricature of what he used to be when he was mayor and when he was a very able prosecutor. it is time that he take a step back go, out to pasture. he is doing considerable damage to the president and mr. cohen and quite honestly, his legacy. but if he wants to continue to help us, by making these

ridiculous comments, that then have to be, that the white house then has to address and back off? so be it. i think the credibility is out the window. >> i want to read awe little piece of this interview he hasn't yet walked back. what you have is this shell corporation. this essential consultants llc that's taking in millions of dollars from all of these big corporations. but then the payment that he makes to stormy daniels, who he is saying he doesn't even know, he knows nothing about, is $130,000. an odd number. giuliani is saying the only reason you guys are suing is because quote i think she feels she was cheated. she feels she could have gotten more. your response? >> well look, here's the fact of the matter. they can't argue on the facts and the evidence of this case, because it is so bad for them, it is only getting worse by the day. with each passing day you have more companies coming forward. now we hear from ford motor company they were solicited by michael cohen. so instead of looking at the facts and the evidence and developing a message based on that, what they've decided to do is just the opposite. they have no facts or evidence.

they're going to develop a message. the message they're trying to sell the american people on now is -- she's just doing this because she didn't get enough money. it's not going to sell. it's not going to sell because there's no facts, there's no evidence to back it up. it's a bunch of nonsense. >> it is interesting that you have giuliani, the other big admission he did, was to admit that donald trump paid back michael cohen for the $130,000 given to michael avenatti's client, stephanie clifford. why would trump need to do that if essential consultants is taking in all of this money? that's one. and then why would michael cohen need to take out a personal loan to put money into essential consultants if he's taking in all this money? that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. >> let me take a moment to brag on my former student this dude right here, i think of him in a justice league with robert muler to save our democracy. so what robert mueller is doing is actually what michael is doing is showing how the money

came in. what robert mueller is interested is where it went. how it flowed out of this llc. and whether the big kahuna, mr. trump, had any portion of that. so to your question, again, that's what he's looking for. because as you say, during this time when michael cohen is getting all this money. he's not acting like a rich dude, he's taking a mortgage out. this money is going somewhere, right? >> taking like $720,000 mortgage out. to remind viewers of who is giving him money. novartis, $1.2 million. say it's focused on u.s. health care. column business nova, $500,000 for potential investments in real estate. korea arrow space and at&t, $600,000 for insights in the new administration. i think what a lot of people see, they say at&t is a giant company, they've got a lobbyist in washington. korea airspace, why would they

need michael cohen. he's not an expert in this. why would a company with a reputation go to someone like michael cohen for advice? >> the news is happening with such velocity it's hard to remember what happened 18 days ago, never mind 18 months ago. but i would like to bring your viewers back it that time when the election had happened and donald trump won. and none of us at this table thought he was going to win. the corporations didn't think he was going to win. everybody was pretty much betting on hillary and they were prepared for the hillary transition, they would have been prepared if it had been a standard republican. but trump was not that standard republican, right? he was not connected to the establishment. he wasn't, there wasn't access to him and he was also unpredictable. he starts tweeting and he's tweeting about boeing and he's tweeting about lockheed martin and he's tweeting about car companies. and i will tell thaw every pr agency in this company started pulling together strategy documents what are you going to do if trump tweets about you?

how do avoid having trump tweet about you? how do you respond? so i don't know if corporations are people or not people, but i'll tell you they're run by people and there was a lot of concern -- how do we -- deal with this? how do we deal with this administration? there's so many reasons corporations have to work with the government. regulatory policy and everybody was kind of at this crossroads. how do you not get get caught in the crosshairs and how do you work with this administration. >> i can understand why it was very appealing to hire somebody who had that access to try to figure this all about. >> what we know about donald trump is he doesn't give something for nothing. you have donald trump who has this long history, in this business, that can be shady, the real estate weird murky world with all of these foreign ties. does it comport with what you know about donald trump that everyone around him says feeding frenzy. he's in here now, we're all going to get rich. is this something that they couldn't have done without him blessing it? >> i think this is both.

i think it's a feeding frenzy. president trump has always been surrounded by second and third-tier people who have hitched their wagon to his star to make a buck. michael cohen is the latest successor in this long line of people both ancient and recent, who have scrambled to make a buck off their proximity to trump. the larger lesson of this whole event thanks to the documents that michael released, is that trump didn't drain the swamp. he just brought in bigger alligators. and michael cohen is just one con duty. i think there's a lot more to learn about corporate america's ties into the trump administration. trump himself led the way because he and his family did not divest themselves in a meaningful way of their own business interests when he went to washington. and they essentially put a for sale sign on the oval office. saying it's okay to avoid traditional conflicts of interest. when he gets elected, case goes into a frenzy. they don't have any relationships with this guy and they start to look for people

who they think can deliver for them and michael cohen is one of those people. >> we've had the family. we've had ivanka selling her jewelry. and it's fifth avenue. the kushner family is an agent. trying to trade visas for investments. it's all over the place with this family. >> just to come back for a moment, you have the companies cooperating. so at&t apparently since november of last year, novartis since november has now cooperating with robert mueller for these companies they've got to run back, they can't just walk it back. novartis came out with a statement that cohen kangted us after the new administration was in place, promising access to the administration, is it standard for companies to buy access? and not register? and that person not be a registered lobbyist? >> i heard nick compasori saying yesterday that lobbyists are the most honest people, they will tell you i'm registered and i'm representing these companies and interests and this is what i'm trying to accomplish. that's a fair business, if it's

done on the unand up, companies want access, they want access to the democratic administration, the republican. that's honest and on the up and up. we don't know what has happened behind the scenes, what promises were made. >> and michael cohen wasn't a registered lobbyist. >> there's another issue that hasn't been touched on yet. i think it's going to be the next front of inquiry. shortly after the election, michael cohen forms a relationship with a very well known law firm in washington, d.c. by the name of patent boggs. and patelant boggs has a long history of lobbying and being involved between companies and the u.s. government, that's a very unusual relationship to have been formed right after the election. because michael cohen is not your average patent boggs attorney. some of us have experience with patent boggs, i know i do. it's a very reputable law firm. some of those people are highly educated, usually. a lot of experience. it's a very unusual

relationship. why did patent boggs and why did michael cohen come together? what did michael cohen sell patent boggs as it related to the idea that they were going to allow michael cohen come to the law firm? it's clear to me what he sold them. what he sold them was a book of clients. a book of corporations or individuals that had already retained him for access to the u.s. president. that needs to be the next inquiry. what did patent boggs know, when did they know it? did they know that michael cohen was lobbying? did they not know it? if they knew about it, why didn't they have michael cohen register as a lobbyist in connection with the work that he was doing? no one has talked about that. i think that needs to be inquired into. >> given your history of knowing things, do you already know the answer to that? >> we may know a couple of things. >> i have to ask you quickly. you tweeted this last night -- >> joy, sorry to interrupt you. i think had you up on your screen, some of the money that had been paid by patent boggs earlier if i'm not mistaken. >> so patent boggs was one of the payees.

>> one of the payees that had been listed on your screen. >> you tweeted why was mr. cohen paying something demiter direct llc in los angeles large sums of money from essential consultants llc account? can you explain that? >> i'm not prepared to explain that this morning. i think it's a good question. maybe michael cohen or his attorney can answer that question before i do. >> we look at who essential consultants llc seems to be. it seems to be a korean food company that's also in some way doing financial consulting. >> you mean demeter. >> are you implying there's a longer list than just novartis and these other companies? >> there's a much longer list. >> do you have the list? >> we may have a couple of things on the list. >> however is giving michael avenatti or however he's getting this information, is it a way to make sure that information doesn't get squashed or sort of fall into the black hole of the robert mueller investigation, where we can't see it?

it will be acted on much more quickly. obviously if you're passing it into the hands of michael avenatti who can use it right away? >> that's right. one of the things that the big corporations are buying is secrecy for michael cohen. they're paying him all this money to peddle influence, which he apparently does not have. but they don't want it out there. sunshine is the best disinfectant. michael avenatti is bringing sunshine to this investigation. >> yes, he is. do you have any other teases for snus you seem to always be teasing some other big breaking news. >> ohio's what i'm going to say, if folks want to continue to hide this stuff and cover it up, i think it's fantastic. because i'm going to out them, okay? we're going to out them. bring all of this stuff to light. so if you're out there and you have stuff relating to your relationships with michael cohen that you're concern reasonable doubt going to come out, you should be concerned, because they are going to come out. you better come clean with the american people. you better try to get out in front of this, period. and that's a stern warning this

saturday morning. >> michael avenatti. we're going to have to have you back. thank you guys very much. and up next, more on cohen's ties to russia. stay with us. a hilton getaway means you get more because... you get another day in paradise. get a sunset on a sunday. get more stories to share. get more from your summer getaway with exclusive hilton offers. book yours, only at hilton.com

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>> among michael avenatti's claims this week, that were eyebrow-raising were transfers made to michael cohen's company. there is of course a russian connection. columbus nova, an investment firm that paid $500,000 to cohen's shell company, essential consultants llc has close ties to a russian oligarch, viktor vekselberg. we should note that vekselberg has not been indicted. columbus nova said it paid cohen to consult on potential sources of capital. and that the payments had nothing to do with vekselberg. according to the "new york times", abc news citing sources with direct knowledge reports that special counsel robert mueller is investigating donations to trump's inaugural committee. made by donors with ties to

saudi arabia, the united arab emirates, qatar and russia. joining me is msnbc contributor and author of "plot to hack america," and journalist and author of "the view from flyover country" sarah kensor. books a million. i'm going to start with you here, malcolm, so you have michael cohen getting all of this money from companies like at&t, novartis, it's all very strange. but of course is all has to come back to another russia connection, the firm that paid michael cohen $500,000 deeply tied to this russian oligarch. one quick piece that he's even, that he's also getting money from that and that and then you've got the cousin that's got a company that went to the inauguration, can you sort this out a little bit? >> the moment fundamental thing that everyone needs to know about this story is with regards to russia, is everywhere we turn, every time we open a door, right behind it is a russian

oligarch. imagine the old james bond films where you have the evil henchman and the table with all the rich billionaire who is get dropped into sharks, that's the russian oligarchy for vladimir putin. they do moscow's bidding because he allows them to be billionaires and to exist. these people are the ones who are executing influence operations. either for the kremlin itself, themselves as billionaires, and they understand donald trump can be manipulated with money and michael cohen was the person what was the go-to guy. so vekselberg saying i have no real connection to him, that's not true at all. your cousin has a connection to him. that's how you do it without getting your fingerprints all over it. >> does it matter if vekselberg was in the inner inner circle or not? there's the question if he was real inner circle or faux inner circle. does that matter? >> it doesn't matter at all. the oligarchs of russia live by

the sufferance of vladimir putin. he allows them to exist and be billionaires. otherwise he press as button and they fall into the tank of sharks. that being said, when he wants something done, he can put his finger right on them and they will execute it as if they were his own intelligence agencies. >> let me come to you, david cornyn and read from your "mother jones" piece about this payment. just a little bit of that. you said, you guys write last month vekselberg and his group were hit by sanctions from the u.s. treasury department. after that, renova took down its website which currently says "under construction." proobs previously the firm's site listed columbus nova as a large renova group, suggesting it was a subsidiary. can you explain who this company is, what do they do? >> well renova group is the big transnational business empire of viktor vekselberg.

who is one of the richest men in russia and an oligarch. who also had a whole side deal with a bank in cypress and wilbur ross before the election, but that's another story. columbus nova is a u.s.-based american company that was listed in a way that suggested it was a subsidiary of the renova group, and in s.e.c. documents that we looked at at mother jones this week, it was described as an affiliate of the renova group. talking to people connected to columbus nova, they say it is owned by an american, the guy who runs it, andrew entrader, not onlied by a russian. so we're not technically be a subsidiary. but it is certainly a big part of vekselberg's operation. and it manages $2 billion in assets. as far as we know, most of those assets are vekselberg's assets. so it is basically a vekselberg company. run by his cousin, the american.

hoe gave $250,000 to trump's inauguration and we went back and looked this guy, andrew entrader, he had never given a major political donation in his life. and now all of a sudden a quarter of a million dollars to trump's inauguration committee the same month columbus nova starts paying michael cohen. >> david, do we know who extended the invitation for him to be at the inauguration? do we know who that person was? >> we don't know how that happened. we do know if you pay $250,000 to the inauguration committee, you get invited to the inauguration and his plus one was victor vekselberg. and they told us that's where they met michael cohen. >> let's talk about awe the different people, sarah, that just keep turning up with friends that are in russia. you have michael cohen who worked on the trump tower moscow project. jeff sessions who is now belatedly admitted he met with

the russian ambassador. donald trump jr., who organized the meeting with the infamous russian lawyer and george pappadopolous. and jared kushner who established back-channel communication with russia and you have michael flynn. i mean it's hard to imagine it's that coincidental. i think chris matthews has said, i don't think i know any russians, he knows like all of them. it can't just be coincidence. but the problem i think for a lot of people who don't believe in collusion, don't think it's real is that they don't see how any of that means that donald trump did anything wrong. >> well all of these people are also intimately connected with donald trump. and the people you just named the tip of the iceberg, who could do we didn't start the fire of russian mob-connected goons hooked up with the trump administration. of course this is not coincidental. these ties go back decades, the ties to somebody like michael cohen. the sort of mobster multitaskers, to take another one of these slime-coated

barnacles stuck to the bottom of this teflon "titanic" we call the trump administration go back decades, they're long in the making. people bring these issues to light individually. look at these people individually. when you look at the network. when you look at where they collide, they collide around the trump family. they collide around the trump organization and none of these business practices or so-called business practices that very engage in have stopped now that trump has become the president, and that's the problem. the problem is corruption, and the problem is a lack of accountability by the republican party who itself is funded by these oligarchs, by these mafia heads, by these characters who have entered the picture and are harming america drois. >> is that simple? you know malcolm? the question of why would russia do this. woo what do they want, right? are they just like the at&ts of the world who want to get close to donald trump to know what his brain is like? or is it all about getting the old former soviet money that's

now russian money, into the united states by hook or by crook? and just purely cash transactional? >> well i think it started out after the u.s. sanctions, they wanted their money. they wanted their money to flow freely. and the oligarchs put their pressure on putin. but putin is not playing at that level. putin is playing a strategic game of influenced warfare. of perception management. and he found that the way that they, the oligarchs were making all of these contacts with conservatives. were meeting the nra. had essentially bought the evangelical movement in the united states. through their protecting christianity conferences. he realized he could co-opt the entire american conservative movement. and that they would become a subordinate subsidiary of his oligarch-based autocracy and he could create an autocracy in the united states which would move the united states to position number two. and vladimir putin strongman to position number one and it's

working. i mean they literally have essentially bought a presidency. >> and you know, david, then you think about michael cohen. and you wonder, for all the money he took in, he still needed to go, i'm going to ask you the same question of our last panel. he still needed to take out $700,000 loans against his and his wife's property. if he was taking in much money, where did it go? >> i wish michael avenatti, our previous guest would tell us what he knows about danita incorporated. he seems to always be a step or two ahead of what he shares with us. i mean you know, when you follow the money, you follow the money in and you follow the money out. so we know at least about $3 million to $4 million here. there may be other payments, but until you get both sides of the equation, you don't have the full story. telling people like mueller to close down now is saying, stop the game and maybe the fourth

inning. >> and one wonders if the play book that mule certificate working off of might be the tax returns. somebody is finding out where all this money is going. >> today would be a good day for donald trump to release his tax returns. >> or not. malcolm, thank you for staking around, david cornyn and sarah mckenszie. on the eve of the mother's days, the trump administration is separating mothers from their children. once there was an organism so small no one thought much of it at all. people said it just made a mess until exxonmobil scientists put it to the test. they thought someday it could become fuel and power our cars wouldn't that be cool? and that's why exxonmobil scientists think it's

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the trump administration has separated 700 immigrant children from their parents since october. and they have no plans to stop. that's next on "a.m. joy." and the safey for "most parallel parallel parking job" goes to...

[ drum roll ] ...emily lapier from ames, iowa. this is emily's third nomination and first win.

um...so, just...wow! um, first of all, to my fellow nominees, it is an honor sharing the road with you. and of course, to the progressive snapshot app for giving good drivers the discounts -- no, i have to say it -- for giving good drivers the discounts they deserve. safe driving! the vast majority of the people that move illegally into

the united states are not bad people. they're not criminals, they're not ms-13. but they are also not people that would easily assimilate into the united states. they're overwhelmingly rural people. in the countries they come from. fourth, fifth, sixth grade educations are kind of the norm. they're coming here for a reason and i sympathize with the reason. but the laws are the laws. >> john kelly has never been one to shy away from how he really feels about undocumented immigrants. when it comes to immigration he is of one mind with donald trump. but there's one person who apparently has not been in on the trump mind meld. homeland security secretary keefrtsen nielson who oversees i.c.e. she nearly resigned after trump berated her in front of the entire cabinet for failing to sufficiently seal the borders. back with me malcolm nans and tara dinl.

and attorney raul reyes. >> kiersten nielson walked back the reports that she wanted to resign, she issue as statement that says the president is rightly frustrated that the existing loopholes and lack of evidence prevent the administration from fully securing the border. ma raul, do we have existing loopholes that are preventing the southern border from being her metically sealed. >> what the administration and dhs is calling loopholes, that is the law. we have things in place under immigration law for asylum. for people, refugee law that, that were deliberately created by congress. and i just want to remind people that jumping-off point for john kelly's comments was the crisis we have at the southern border. they're trying to defend this indefensivible policy of separating women and children

and are shifting it to a debate about assimilation, which has nothing to do with asylum law. asylum law doesn't mandate education and skills, it just mandates whether or not you're suffering percent indicatiosecu. dangerous for to you go home. they know this policy, inhumane it's been in effect for a while and this administration last year, "the new york times" reported they've already lost 1500 children that they placed out with sponsors, or agencies -- >> lost track of them. >> they don't know where they are that's 1500 children that are missing. >> just for those who weren't up on this earlier in the week. this is jeff sessions, kiersten nielson is the successor to john kelly, who was the department of homeland director, who implemented these policies. jeff sessions, ag, very much about stopping immigration from certain parts of the world. here he is talking about separating families on monday. >> if you smuggle illegal

aliens, across our border. then we will prosecute you. if you are smuggling a child, then we will prosecute you. and that child may be separated from you as required by law. so if you're going to come to this country, come here, legally, don't come here illegally. >> i'm not sure we heard yelling in the background, but i'll throw that open to the panel. they're not shrinking back from this policy. this is what they want to do. >> this is what we have been saying all along about white nationalism. if we're going to be candid about it. they're saying certain parts of people from certain parts of the world are somehow incapable of experiencing america the way other people have. even though we know that john kelly's great grandfather was illiterate and driving a wagon. >> and he's italian and irish. >> but somehow they were able to assimilate. people in trump's family were able to assimilate. apparently illiterate people from all parts of the europe

were able to assimilate. but when it comes to brown and black people, it's a problem. >> heartlessness and hatefulness, they're taking out trials to see who is going to be the director and assistant director. nielson, her statement that she was going to resign, she almost resigned, it wasn't over the policies. it was over the fact that she had been publicly humiliated by donald trump in a meeting. she doesn't care about taking away children from their mothers. okay? mine this whole thing, and along with the concept of building a wall you know i come from the national security side of it. look, we could, general kelly couldn't seal a border between afghanistan and pakistan with terrorists flying back and forth across it every day. you're not going to be able to secure it. this is not the soviet union. we don't put up iron curtains, we have things called laws, people own property down there. and they don't seem to care at all about it. this is just -- let's be honest

about it. it's a form of institutionalized bigotry based on racism. against people coming from the south. and until we recognize that, they will keep insisting that this is the top national security priority of the united states. >> tara, just to make that point. if you look at where the countries of origin are for unauthorized immigrants in the united states. 6.2 million from mexico. caveat. that mexico used to do half of the western united states. there are a lot of people that were already there. but anyway, 6.2 from mexico, then guatemala, el salvador and hondurans. so it's a brown immigrant invasion they see it i find it interesting when you look at the ancestry of most white americans, we know the english initially settled the united states. they're currently the smallest group of americans. the biggest class are germans and we know germans mostly came after 1840, with the collapse of

bavaria, donald trump's grandfather was illiterate when he came here so there was a real backlash against irish and italians when they came here. it's interesting that you have a group. most americans are from these post-founding cohorts. but then there is this sort of i don't know what do you make of it? >> it's i don't want to just replicate the points that were made. but it's steeped in white supremacy. because there is no other explanation for it. because they, to your point, if you're coming from denmark, there's no problem. no problem. and so i do think that the issue here is that democrats need to be more outspoken and not allow this debate to be on the terms of the republicans. there needs to be more push-back from democrats, more messaging from democrats. around these issues, because right now, i am starting to hear people who are not necessarily aligned with trump saying what's wrong, why wouldn't we want to secure our border? so the issue has become

obfuscated by the trump administration, which is their goal. because for them, for his base, this is their number one issue. >> it's a mobile issue. >> and he -- the tax cut is hurting his base. it's benefitting very wealthy people and his base knows it. but so he has to mitigate by throwing, by throwing the immigration issue, he has to keep that front and center, continue to demonize black and brown people. that's what they want to hear and he knows that and that's why he's going to keep doing it. we can't let him control the narrative. >> the danger is things like tariffs or tax policy. that's very complicated for people even who are informed. among the base, anything to do with immigration, particularly illegal immigration that's a very visceral. emotional issue that motivates people. the republicans have to a large extent controlled this narrative recently. because illegal immigration.

it ebbs and flows over time. the trends are definitely down. >> but it's also spring and that's when you have -- spikes in immigration during this spring. >> the crisis at the border is not even an immigration crisis, that's a humanitarian crisis. >> they have presented it as an invasion. people swarming over the boarder to threaten society. where it's not that. they have shifted that whole story. >> and the conventional argument doesn't work. >> this says something about what's being signaled from the republican party. there's a great quote on twitter. when you hear kirsten nielson saying i almost quit. it's like grumble bragging. they'ring in eh never going to quit, because they're in line with the policies, they're pretending they're resisting them, when if fact they have no problem kicking brown or plaque people out of the country. >> this story has been heard before. this is 1939 and you know the america first movement, the isolationist movement in the preworld war ii area.

and american bund. it's been said before. >> we have to go, i want to give a final word on this, as the attorney at the table, is there anything that the children can do or these parents i mean, because children can't do anything. >> yes, they have legal rights under asylum. undocumented people have rights of due process. the problem is in reality on the ground, it's you know, they're dealing with a foreign system. it's very hard to navigate without a lawyer. so they have these rights it remains to be seen whether the majority can certificate kper size it and the children you need them to be together. >> we talked about separated moms and kids in the show, it's wrenching. malcolm and tara are sticking around. thank you very much, more after the break. - anncr: as you grow , your brain naturally begins to change which may cause trouble with recall. - learning from him is great... when i can keep up! - anncr: thankfully, prevagen helps your brain and improves memory. - dad's got all the answers. - anncr: prevagen is now the number-one-selling brain health supplement in drug stores nationwide.

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since my dad has been diagnosed in the past it's almost a year, july 19th, i really feel like i understand the meaning of life and it is not how you die, it is how you live. whatever you want to say in this kind of environment, the thing that surprises me most is -- i was talking about this with you, joy -- i don't understand what kind of environment you are working in when that would be acceptable and then you can come to work the next day and still

have a job. >> as of this morning white house aide kelly sadler still does have her job despite reportedly mocking senator john mccain's battle with brain cancer during a white house meeting. after mccain who survived torture while he was a pow in vietnam announced his opposition to gina haspel as cia director over her refusal to condemn the use of torture by us. sources say that sadler responded, quote, it doesn't matter, he's dying anyway. my panel is back with me. so this is difficult because the white house is in an awkward position here because the question -- i was talking with one of my colleagues in the hallway downstairs. who would be the person that would issue the denunciation and fire her? donald trump is the boss and he talks this way about john mccain, he hasn't said this particular thing. >> nobody in the white house has the kind of integrity to stand up and say this is an issue. you would think kelly would be the person because he is in the military that he would do this, but, no, they are all engaged in this behavior. this is their communication

strategy. that's how they all behave. so what i find so disturbing about this is not just that this is what was said, but that other people in the room obviously thought it was a problem, leaked the story out, but there's no one there to say, yeah, and this is the line that must be drawn. that's what we've constantly had with this administration, whether it's "s" hole country, tillers tillers tillerson. >> what people are upset at now is that it leaked. you've had lindsey gam come out and condemn it, joe biden has condemned this, obviously the mccain family, cindy mccain. it's if i am lar to the other trump-ish scandals. people all get upset but nothing ever happens. >> right. right. and that's why this continues to happen because there is zero accountability in the trump administration. and the fact that she felt comfortable enough in a room that large knowing that people leak things that she felt comfortable enough to make a

statement like that, what else is being said that has not been leaked? >> yeah. >> so i think that, you know, this speaks to the larger issue. when you have an environment where it's not that trump is the only person that knows that there is no accountability, everybody who works for trump knows there is no accountability. no one is focused on jared kushner any more, he has broken every law on the book, look at scott pruitt, he continues to loot the treasury and taxpayer. nobody cares. this is part of that issue. >> last night on bill maher's show there was congressman hunter, i want to say he might be duncan hunter he's son. he is a military veteran who essentially kind of excused this. even within military members of trump's base is there real outrage that this is the way people talk about a war hero like john mccain? >> no, and, you know, i have to tell you as a military person, you know, and as i like to say an old navy chief, all right, and the difference between what's going on with trump's

military base and the rest of the military is very weird. i mean, we have people who are behaving in sort of flight line field conditions where they can make all the insulting jokes that they want and it's going to be accepted, but you are talking about the man who took five draft deferments, who hid from the vietnam war, who joked about how avoiding stds was his way of combat. these military people love him. all right? and i'm going u. just going to come out and say it, not honorable military veterans because an mon rabl military veteran if they had heard this story would have said, do you know what, there's a line, that line has now been crossed, but they have this cultish love of him where the love of donald trump exceeds the constitution and exceeds the love of the honor of everyone who has sacrificed and lost in this nation. >> to the people in the trump base don't care, don't mind if john mccain and khizr conner are

denigra graded. are we at a tipping point where it doesn't matter what he said and does? >> it doesn't matter matter what his team says and does. wasn't it two weeks ago they were saying, oh, my gosh, michelle wolf is the worse person in the world for making fun of this administration. >> there's a part of that saying if you don't support gina haspel you don't support women. >> john mccain has voted with donald trump 83% of the time and the expectation was that he was only going to vote for 538 analysis he should have only voted with him 61% of the time. also someone -- he may have said things, but he supported this administration. >> there isn't a push back. malcolm, tara, jason, thank you all very much. more apple joy next. (vo) why are subaru outback owners always smiling? because they've chosen the industry leader. subaru outback holds its value better than any other vehicle in its class, according to alg. better than rav4. better than grand cherokee.

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the united states will withdraw from the iran nuclear deal. today's action sends a critical message. the united states no longer makes empty threats. when i make promises, i keep them. >> well, welcome back to "a.m. joy." by keeping a promise to his supporters donald trump broke america's promise to the world and there have been consequences. in just a few days since trump announced the u.s. was withdrawing from the nuclear deal with iran, there has been backlash from our european allies as both france and germany try to preserve the

agreement. the supreme leader of iran once again threatened to ramp up his country's nuclear program. add so that the possibility of a nuclear arms race in the middle east with the saudi foreign minister saying this just the day after trump's announcement. >> we will do whatever it takes to protect our people. we have made it very clear that if iran acquires a nuclear capability we will do everything we can to do the same. >> the increased tensions in the middle east also means that israel's cold war with iran could turn hot. on thursday israel launched strikes against iranian targets in syria after it accused iran of rocket attacks in the golan heights, a territory disputed by israel and its neighbor syria. trump has added a crisis of his own making to an already volatile middle east. could war be next? joining me now long time u.s. diplomate and former ambassador joe wilson. trita parsy author of "losing an enemy, obama, iran and the triumph of diplomacy" and former

chief of staff for colin powell lawrence wilkerson. trita, i want to go to you first. when donald trump pulled the united states out of the iran deal essentially we violated the iran deal, in your view did that make it more likely -- which of these two scenarios became more likely, scenario a we just become more isolated as europe doubles down on the deal or scenario b the whole deal falls a wart? >> both of them became more likely. on the one hand the u.s. is now more isolated as a result of trump not only walking out of this deal, violating this deal, but in the process really doing everything he could to humiliate the europeans. he had them come in here and parading in washington, d.c., trying to save the deal, whereas in reality he had already made a decision back in december. he was going to violate the deal. he only did this to humiliate them and show them who actually is calling the shots. on the other hand the likelihood of the deal surviving clearly is going to be less as a result of this u.s. violation. the europeans are trying hard

right now to be able to hold it together, but it will require massive political will on the european side as well as a willingness to take economic costs because it means that the europeans are going to be forced to enforce sanctions on the united states in order to prevent u.s. sanctions hitting european companies. this is going to be very, very tough. the united states under trump is now signaling we don't care about europe. the three allies we care about is the prime minister in israel, the crown prince in saudi arabia and the rulers of the uae, not france, germany and the uk. >> and let's talk about those three players because i think that's important, colonel lawrence wilkerson to talk about. you have the saudis who are very much aligned on the isolate iran side and they are on the same side of that with, you know, the ruling party in israel, but you also have at the same time all that is happening the u.s. moving our embassy in israel to

jerusalem, a very controversial move, on monday. this is happening monday. the u.s. embassy in jerusalem will open to great fanfare on monday, reports "the new york times" that the american ambassador of israel will not yet work permanently out of his new offices, this he may also help get around diplomatic awkwardness because other countries don't recognize this. at the same time you have the u.s. using israeli intelligence to make this case that iran was in noncompliance because they couldn't get that intelligence from the u.s. what do you make of all of these chess pieces? >> joy, i agree with trita that we have a lot of negative repercussions of his withdrawal from this deal, from rupture of the transatlantic relations to empowerment of russia and china, but the one i'm most concerned about you just began to put your finger on. i wrote about this in the "new york times" a month or so ago. i fear that israel is going to lead the united states ultimately into a hot conflict with iran. we have two choices when we say

that iran is having a nuclear program that has a latent potential for a nuclear weapon is unacceptable. two choices. one is to ignore it, which i don't think we're going to do for a moment and recent events prove that. two, war, because war is the only way you ultimately eliminate not just a nuclear program, but the potential for that program to produce a nuclear weapon. i see beeby netanyahu in his actions in israel including them baes move as sort of ingredients in the run up to run up to that war. >> one of the reasons that i really wanted to talk to you today is this whole thing feels like a movie that we've seen before. we know that prime minister netanyahu was very much in favor of the u.s. invading iraq, we know that back in those days you had a lot of people like john bolton who is now in the administration had great designs on doing the same thing to iran. you had presentations of why we

should invade iraq that were -- that were false and you were one of the people that debunked one of them, that there was supposedly this search for yellow cake enriched urine yum in niger. you were involved in that intimately as was your wife in that incident. they just put out this debunker of president netanyahu's presentation where he tried to prove iran was violating the deal, debunking it. do you feel like this movie is repeating and that we are sliding toward another case being made by an american administration to go to war? >> good morning, joy. it's so nice to be with you. thank you for having me on. i actually go so far back that my first movie was with saddam hussein in 1990. so i've been down this path a few times. i obviously agree with what colonel wilkerson said and what dr. parsy said, both of whom i

respect enormously. i would go further and say what we're looking at here is a reshaping of the world order for the first time since i would say the bretten woods era where our unchallenged power and authority to make the rules of the game of international relations no longer prevails and i would urge everybody to read barbara tuckerman's "the guns of august". the lack of american leadership and the lack really of international leadership is manifesting itself in the middle east, but it is -- it is global in nature. the idea bibi netanyahu being a global international relations authority should scare

everybody. >> you know, trita, we look at a world in which the united states, you know, to ambassador wilson's point has sort of withdrawn from global leadership. we have stories about the uae attempting to buy influence with the administration, the saudis obviously being able to very much sway and bee giel donald trump by treating him sort of in a royal way. russia obtaining a lot of influence over apparently, you know, the campaign potentially of the president of the united states and at the same time it does feel like the united states is being walked hand in hand toward a war with iran, but in this case with who? with what european allies if there were to happen? >> none. and that's part of the reason why donald trump is not particularly happy with the europeans. i think what ambassador wilson said is very, very true when it comes to the global scale and if we take a look at that on a regional scale i think what we see here is that the israelis and the so you haddees have been

pushing as has the uae for more than a decade now for the united states to reverse the balance of power in the region as it has been shifting in favor of iran very much as a result of the mistake of george w. bush of going into iraq. the saudis, the uae and the israelis want the united states to reestablish a balance in the region that is similar to the one that existed pre 2003. no american administration up until now has been interested in that proposition because it simply does not lie in the interest of the united states to do so and it is enormously costly. donald trump, however, is a person who doesn't understand geopolitics, doesn't look at things strategically, he looks at it from a transactional perspective. what he's looking for is the saudis to say, yes, we're willing to foot the bill if you go to war with iran and that's the green light he is still waiting for, it's not clear whether he's got it or not but that's the direction he's going in right now. >> just to reset for those who may not remember, doesn't the invasion of iraq -- isn't that -- i think that's what

trita was getting at -- isn't that primarily what helped to empower iran? >> absolutely. we stopped, reversed, 40-plus years of u.s. policy. i know, i was part and parcel of doing the war planning for that policy for 30 of those years. we reversed everything when we took the leader in iraq, the balancer of persia, if you will, out of the scene. we put iran in a cat bird seat and trita is absolutely right, this is a regional struggle for the balance in power that we destroyed. each of the powers in the region that is contending with iran wants the united states to be their sugar daddy in regard to reestablishing them as the pivot in that balance of power. something that we have refrained from doing to this point and i agree, again, with trita that this administration, especially the president, is not astute enough to big this out and to be a part and parcel of doing

something positive in that regard, but john bolton, nikki haley and a host of others around him are astute enough and they worry me because if they get control of this president, and we've seen how easy it is to do with weedling and cajoling and flattery and so forth we could be headed into this war and this war will be as or more catastrophic than the 2003 invasion of iraq. that's my greatest fear. >> absolutely. and, you know, to that point, ambassador wilson, you do have people like mike pompeo, people like john bolton, people who know a lot more about foreign policy than donald trump certainly does. it is very similar in a sense that the dick cheney's of the world weren't able to capture george w. bush because he didn't have as much knowledge about it. it does feel like donald trump who ran saying that iraq was a stupid war even though he initially supported it, he feels -- seems to have been captured by this cohort. even dick cheney is back saying we should do torture again.

>> i think donald trump is a crazy person. he's mad. that's what makes this to dangerous. while we are drifting towards a major conflict in the middle east, i would go back to '91 just to make a point, which is we did not go into baghdad in '91 because we fully understood the importance of having iraq as a bulwark against shia expansionism and the iranian expansionism. so there is a lot of history there and i think colonel wilkerson and dr. parsy have both touched on t but again, i look at this today as -- as sarajevo in 1914. i really look at the middle east as the canary in the possibility of a much broader conflict and

realignment of global interest across the board and all the violence that comes from that. >> and -- >> and we have a madman as president. >> and dr. parsy, tell us, where does russia end up in that hierarchy if this realignment takes place? >> i think the russians have benefited tremendously as have the iranians from the invasion into iraq. to the extent that the united states further weakens itself by going into more endless strategically unimportant and marginal wars in the middle east, the better off the russians will be. if we take a look at what's happening in syria right now, the russians are technically part thing with iran in order to boost up assad, but at the same time they are not really objecting to the israelis with the provocatiocations they're d attacking syrian and iranian positions. they're okay. they're advancing their position as long as these different parties fight each other.

>> it's scary. thank you all very much. up next as i just said dick cheney, yeah, he's back. stay with us. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. so why accept it from your allergy pills? most pills don't finish the job because they don't relieve nasal congestion. flonase allergy relief is different. flonase relieves sneezing, itchy, watery eyes and a runny nose, plus nasal congestion, which pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one. and 6 is greater than 1. start your day with flonase for more complete allergy relief. flonase. this changes everything.

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and it's "daditude". simple. easy. awesome. xfinity. the future of awesome. i think what we did helped ultimately produce the intelligence we needed to be able to get bin laden and so i supported it wholeheartedly, i still do to this day, prepared to defend it and debate it and

argue it. this was a period of time when we had been attacked -- >> is it the right move to discontinue those programs today? >> if it were my call i would not discontinue those programs. i would have them active and ready to go. >> dick cheney came out of the shadows this week to embark on a full blown campaign to bring back torture. the former vice president took to fox in us to promote the revival of so-called enhanced interrogation programs like water boarding which were utilized under president george w. bush post 9/11. those interrogation programs and tactics have come back to the forefront with donald trump's controversial pick for cia director gina pass haspel. she was grilled about her current view of morality during her confirmation hearing this week. >> do you believe that the previous interrogation techniques were immoral? >> senator, i believe that cia

officers to whom you referred -- >> it's a yes or no answer. >> senator, what i believe sitting here today is that i support the higher moral standard we have decided to hold ourselves to. >> can you please answer the question? >> senator, i think i've answered the request he. >> no, you have not. >> joining me now is vince warren, cynthia storer and back with me a colonel lawrence wilkerson. vince, it is chilling, we talked at the break, it feels like everything is back, the idea of bar in the middle east with a country that starts with "i" in this case iran not iraq, dick cheney and his continued support for for tune and gina haspel who oversaw the torture of detainees including khalid sheikh mohammed. senator john mccain wrote ms. haspel's role inover seeing the use of torture by americans is

disturbing. her refusal to ignore torture's i'm mortgage is disqualifying. i believe the senate should reject the nomination. donald trump had this to say, gina haspel has come under fire because she was too tough on terrorists. think of that. in these very dangerous times we have the most qualified person a woman who democrats want out because she is too tough on terror. donald trump is clear that he wants to bring torture back. he's for it. what does that mean for our democracy and for our society? >> it's a disaster. we had a big strategic meeting, we said what are the big things that are going to happen, who is it going to happen to and what are we going to do about this. this is right after the election, it's like i cannot believe we are going to have to have this discussion again about torture. this was done. torture is a crime el ninos against humanity. there are three of them, torture, slavery and genocide. this is not a question of a job description, this is no a question of whether she served her duty, you know, in a good

manner. she committed a crime. this is a criminal conspiracy. we really shouldn't conflate the idea of authorization which he talks about because if we think about slavery and genocide they're always authorized at some point. what is plainly illegal which is torture. i think senator mccain is absolutely right and i would go further it's not even just that she can't say that it's immoral, that it's a crime. >> you have now two -- yet you have two democrats who are now on record as saying they will support her nomination, the second that just came out is senator donnelly, joe donnelly of indiana says he has made his decision after a tough, frank and extensive discussion with gina haspel. the other democrat is joe manchin of west virginia. democrats who, you know -- one of the first executive orders that president obama signed was to ban toer tour, john mccain

who suffered for fewer himself has been very clear, this is not something the american people can have done in their name ever again. you even have some democrats that are supporting her. >> what i would say to the democrats is that this is not a situation where we should be talking about promotion, we should be talking about prosecution. as a crime against humanity, as a crime in the united states both of those senators should be thinking about two things, number one, why is it that we are allowing this to be a discussion about bur extra zags rather than creating one of the most heinous crimes in american history and the other question is she's subject to international prosecution, if they confirm her they may have a cia chief that can be prosecuted in other countries. >> that can't travel. i want to go to cynthia because you have been in cia counterterrorism, you've been an analyst, you were there i believe in the agency during the time when the bush administration was cooking the books to get us to invade iraq. >> yes. >> i want you to listen to gina haspel being questioned about whether or not dick cheney is right, whether or not we should

bring back these interrogation programs and whether she would if she were confirmed. take a listen. into ms. haspel you didn't actually answer the question. what would you do if the president ordered you to get back in that business? >> senator, the president has selected me -- >> that's a yes or no. >> -- to give him advice. i would not restart under any circumstances an interrogation program at cia under any circumstances. >> you know, cynthia, if she couldn't say that torture is immoral, then on what bases does she assert that she would not bring it back? >> well, it's now illegal, what she said. the problem is that in the federal government the only -- the only official ethical standard is the law. that's it. because we have freedom of religion, freedom of preach, we don't all agree on any other ethical standards so the ethical standard is the law. that puts federal employees in a position where if they're going to argue against the law,

they're doing it on their own -- their own moral compass, their own moral basis which i did, i thought it was morally reprehensible and i wouldn't have anything to do with it, but you see how it puts people in a bad position and for her if she were to come out and say, well, it was -- you know, it was -- it was wrong, it was immoral, we should never have done that then she is going to have a lot of employees, people she worked with who are going to feel betrayed. if she said it was okay then obviously she probably won't get confirmed. she is in a really bad spot. my concern, though, would be as some of you have said is going forward. what is her own personal moral compass going forward? you know, if president trump asks her to do something else that is technically legal or could be said to be technically legal, will she say no? >> and, colonel wilkerson, that is i think a lot of people's problem. maybe people should feel a little bit bad if somebody is to tell them the truth which is that torturing people was a

moral stain on our country. i find it odd that people have hide under the convenient fact that the government of the united states didn't want to hold itself accountable for what it did. now you have somebody who could just hide behind that standard again if the current pro torture president said do it again. >> absolutely, joy. let me just answer that question you asked earlier about the democrats. they are morale cowards, plain and simple. gina haspel has a record that i would entertain very carefully before i would appoint her to any position. one, she in fact said that she was following orders. that was the defense of nazis at nuremberg. two, she destroyed evidence of what she did along with josé rodriguez and if what she did was legal why did she feel like she had to destroy the evidence? three, and this one bothers me the most because i've made a study and i teach the bureaucratic organization of the u.s. government since world war

ii, i would never if i were president, never appoint a person who had been in the bowels of the cia in covert operations, getting people to betray their countries for money essentially then running those people, having those people killed and then hiring new people. that's what they do. with he need them, but they stay in the bowels of the cia, no the as the director of the cia. i would never appoint a person who had been in covert ops for 33 years as the director of that organization. >> i mean, cynthia, isn't that a fair point? i mean, she's been -- dick cheney loves to talk about operating on the dark side. that has been her career. how would we as american people trust like that to run the agency in some different way? >> because everyone in the agency is compromised tomorrow so extent. i mean, i used the information that came from all those operations, you know, i'm not completely innocent here, either. that's the way it works.

the advantage of having somebody who has come up through operations be in charge of the agency would be that they actually understand how things work and don't work, as opposed to having somebody up there authorize things that are clearly ridiculous. >> but, cynthia, just for one second just to push back because you also had career people in cia who knew how things work who were able to be pushed around by the political appointees in the pentagon of the bush administration and told to produce intelligence that would allow the american people to believe saddam hussein had been involved in 9/11 which was not true. >> absolutely. >> why would you want somebody who is that compliant to run an agency as powerful and dangerous as the cia? >> right, and that's the thing, i wouldn't want someone who is that client in charge. that's what i mean by what is her -- you know, having gone through this experience, what is her thinking about where she would draw a line in the future? would she just be kploo int because an order is apparently legal or would she push back at

some point on something? right? that's very important to me. the other thing i want to know is what exactly was her role because if she was sent out to some of these places to clean up messes that happened before her, you know, and maybe if she didn't -- it wasn't her idea to destroy the tapes, i don't know. you know, to what point was -- >> she was the one authorized to do it. it was her decision and she's testified that it was her decision that she didn't have to, there was no legal requirement -- >> no, she said it was jose who had reegz's order. >> then she's compliant. >> exactly. at what point do you say, no, i'm not doing this anymore. that's the key question. >> especially with this president. >> absolutely. >> i don't know, vince, i'm going to -- >> absolutely. i want someone in charge of the cia who is going to know when to say no. >> especially with this president. we can count on the fact that there is going to be a tweet that says bring for tour back, we can also count on dick cheney coming out like a bad case of foot fungus every time this comes up. >> they are not going to do torture because it's now illegal. those methods --

>> hold on one second. -- >> because of the mccain act. >> the a mull u ments clause you are not spo he issed to violate that, either. >> the agency follows the law. >> let me just say -- >> the agency breaks the law quite regularly -- >> -- the president ask say anything and this one says anything that he wants and it puts tremendous pressure on the bureaucracy either to comply or not. the big picture we're missing is when the president says do something illegal as this president will, as president bush did, the entire apparatus moves to do it to justify and to destroy evidence and keep it secr secret. it's not gina haspel, what would it look like to have a cia chief that says we're going to do this a whole different way. we absolutely will not torture and they should say the t word and not the enhanced interrogation baloney and we are going to move forward in a different way.

that person gets confirmed, it will shake up the cia and there will be a lot of people that have feelings that were back there in 2,000 and 2006 who were doing this for tour, but who cares? it's more important moving forward that we have a cia that is going to be -- they are not going to tell us what they're doing so we have to be able to do trust that they're doing the right thing and we can't trust any of them. >> colonel wilkerson, on the subject of moral coward des we know the next step is that then the subsequent congress passes a law to wipe away any potential legal liability for the people who did the things they know were wrong. so we know that congresses are not in the business of and justice departments are in the business of holding anybody legally accountable. in the end even if there is some violation of laws and norms it will just be washed away by the next counsel. >> you're absolutely right. >> i was there -- i'm sorry, joy -- >> when the pipe committee and the church committee met to essentially reprimand the central intelligence agency for everything from planned

assassinations to all manner of nefarious activities they then had an institutional after matt. that was to set up the house permanent select committee on intelligence and the senate select committee on intelligence as rigorous oversight of the cia. they are no longer oversight of the cia, they are cheerleaders for the cia. cheerleaders on both sides of the political aisle, republican and democrat. and when you have no check on the central intelligence agency from the congressional branch of government, you are in deep trouble and to put gina haspel in the directorship of that agency would be a grave mistake. >> could i go back to the -- >> yes, go on. >> thank you. i want to go back to what happened after -- right after 9/11 and, again, i'm not justifying this because i said no, but i want people to understand what it was like inside the agency, what it was like everywhere right after 9/11. people faced a moral choice and there are different systems of ethical thinking, right, and moral thinking. is it more ethical to spare

these individuals and possibly have thousands of innocent people killed or is it more ethical to treat these people well and then just, you know, take -- what is the right thing to do ethically there? people were having these debates and they said will the american people forgive us if we don't do everything we can to try to stop attacks that we know are in process. >> right. and i hear that, cynthia, but at the same time we also know from the reporting that one of the things that they used torture for was to create a fiction, to get khalid sheikh humid to say something that wasn't true so they could have justification to go into iraq. >> unfortunately it got used for -- right, it got used for all kinds of things it wasn't supposed to be used for. >> we are right back there with iran. thank you all. vince warren, cynthia storer, colonel wilkerson. thank you very much. still tomorrow could, trump's latest praise for a dictator, all fun stuff today on the show.

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we want to thank kim jong-un who really was excellent to these three incredible people, they are really three incredible people. he was nice in letting them go before the meeting. i mean, frankly, we didn't think this was going to happen and it did. >> donald trump this week welcomed back three americans who had been detained in north korea and praised the dictator who had held them captive in the

first place. hours later the white house announced that trump's anticipated meeting with kim jong-un will take place june 12th in singapore. joining me now is the president of the plow shares fund and the founder of women across dmz. i want to start with you, ms. an. what did you make of donald trump's statement that kim jong-un had been nice and praising him, he having taken these three americans prisoner in the first place. what did you make of that praise? >> well, i thought he was setting the tones for the upcoming summit with kim jong-un in singapore. a huge obstacle towards improved relations had been removed by the freeing of the three prisoners and so i just think donald trump was trying to return, you know, the positive gesture that north korea put forward ahead of the talks by freeing the american prisoners.

>> joe, it's quite a difference than the way that donald trump talks about kim jong-un now than he used to. let me play just a little compendium of his prior version of his remarks about the north korean leader. >> rocket man is on a suicide mission for himself and for his regi regime. >> rocket man should have been handled a long time ago. >> these massive tax cuts will be rocket fuel -- little rocket man -- rocket fuel for the american economy. >> what do you make of this shift, joe? because he started with ridicule and then he's moved over to extreme praise. >> yeah, well, for donald trump this is part of his playbook, right? this is the way he thinks you gain negotiating leverage, excessive threats followed by excessive praise. he thinks he's running the show here.

i think the korean leaders, both president moon and kim jong-un are actually setting the stage, are actually the driving dynamic here. for president trump this is all about him, as everything is. so the release of these prisoners, it was a big show about him. their families weren't there at andrews air force base, their friends weren't there, it was all about donald trump, about his ratings. you know, president obama released 11 north korean prisoners, the release of 11 north korean prisoners during his term he never did anything like this. this unfortunately is the kind of president we have now. >> you know, christine, you have donald trump whose new secretary of state wasn't aware that you don't refer to kim jong-un as chairman un as he came back from north korea. got that wrong. you've got a president that isn't much of a study, but he does now seem to be doing things

that are very much in the favor of kim jong-un, things he has wanted to put himself on par with the american president. donald trump is coming to his region so he doesn't have to travel very far, he can get on a train and go to singapore. it does feel like donald trump is doing all the gestures, you know, although there is something back, i'm looking at a press release from the ministry of foreign affairs from north korea saying that north korea is -- they are going to dismantle some of their nuclear testing grounds. i wonder if you can tell who is winning this sort of game of detente. >> well, i mean, just to build on what joe said, i would agree with him absolutely that the two korean leaders are driving this, but if we look at the real game changing moment that ultimately led to a diplomatic breakthrough was the candlelight revolution in south korea. it was the people's movements that unseated, that ousted the former president of south korea

who is sitting in prison for his political corruption. it was one in three south koreans taking to the streets demanding that they have a shift in who is in office and that also very much drove the hard line policies of pack do you know hay and they swept in moon jae-in, a human rights lawyer and he came into office pledging to see through a peace treaty if north korea committed to denuclearization. that's what we're seeing now. i think it's a huge win for the people of korea and what we saw with the declaration was, i think, an unprecedented agreement that said we are declaring an end to the korean war. this is a new era for peace for the korean peninsula and this is the will of the people. i mean, moon jae-in is the most popular leader in the world, in the free world. he has 85% approval ratings for his diplomatic work with the north koreans. so i think this is a win.

for peace this is a win for the korean people but this is a win for world peace. i think it's a really significant moment, we shouldn't poo poo this. this is a 70-year conflict and this means that millions of korean families can be reunified, this means that potentially 5,000 remains of american pow and mias that still exist in north korea could be settled, it means that there can be an improvement in human rights. the head of the world food program just came back from north korea and he said if there is a peace agreement it will improve the daily conditions of the north korean people. so this is a big win i think for everybody. >> and, you know, i think that is a very important point. shouldn't we be ascribing the success to really a historic presidency by moon jae-in. he really has driven the diplomacy. trump wants the nobel prize but moon jae-in has to be the most significant leader of south korea that we have seen at least in my lifetime. >> absolutely. i completely agree with

christine. this is very difficult especially for us here in washington. a lot of my democratic colleagues are very skeptical of this summit, are trying to get to the right of donald trump on this, but we have to take our feelings about donald trump and put them a little bit aside and in some ways as christy is pointing out he is the least important figure in this drama that's unfolding. things are in motion on the korean peninsula that are extremely important, it's time to be cautiously optimistic and supportive of this summit. some historic things can indeed happen. >> indeed. i think if this works out, i would be shocked if president moon jae-in did not wind up with the nobel peace prize. it is very historic indeed. joe and christine, thank you very much. coming up at the top of the hour, the white house's new defense this morning of the aide who mocked john mccain. but up next, a history lesson for oliver north. i'm not a bigwig. or a c-anything-o. but i've got an idea sir. get domo. it'll connect us to everything that's going on in the company. get it for jean who's always cold.

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but, north was found not guilty on nine other counts including lying to congress. >> nearly 30 years after oliver north was con vikvicted for hise of the iran scandal, he became the nra president. he says gun safety advocates are engaging in civil terrorism. you go back to the terrible day of jim crow and even there you did not have these kinds of things. you want to talk about jim crow. let's talk about how dr. martin luther king was denied a concealed permit in alabama after his home was air bombed or carrying load weapons after black panthers showed up armed at the state capital.

fill l joining me to discuss this, leigh, for those who don't remember iran-contra. this is where in the united states under the reagan administration sold guns to iran. everything old is new again and funnel the money to the contra rebels who are fight the government there. that was fun. oliver north, he's a retired marine and he served as a military aid to ronald reagan and convicted of shredding documents and accepting illegal gratuity and a conviction was over turned. how is this happening? the oliv the nra says is a legendary warrior for american freedom and gifted communicator and skilled leader. >> how did this happen? >> the voices we are seeing on

television and on the radio and writing op-eds and people who are calling north a hero. ronald reagan said right after he fires north, this man is a hero. the vast majority of the country though thinks that oliver north is a criminal. that he has gotten in the way of justice and shredding documents and transparent and been running a secret national security agency or crete cia under cover and lied to congress. it is a weird mix. one of the things that come out of this, oliver north is able to with this small group of people really take hold or take root with this hero narrative and becomes a quasi celebrity on the right. he has very successful career including sitting on the board of the nra for quite some time. >> this was a serious scandal because it was done without the authorization of congress. let's go to the second bit of

oliver north of new found fame. >> he's talking about young student activists leading marches to fight gun violence like the one in stoneman douglas in florida. thai they're calling them activists, they're not activists, this is si civil terrorism. this is the kind of thing that's never been seen of civil rights. >> you would know about terrorism and talking about what he does. what do you make of this idea trying to like him? >> right so best it is out right false. we can look at civil rights organization at the height of

gym crowe a jim crow and the the push back of -- this was to shape or form of what's going on today. i think there is something very deliberate happening today. this was not the first time that oliver north engaged in this kind of practices. you are ta i cking the idea of righteous necessary of those causes and you are putting it on your organization as a mean creating some kind of parallel in order to distract from what's going on. it is an old technique and tactic. it is one that's incredibly successful for oliver north in particular in generating sympathy on the right. >> making themselves feel like a victim. >> always great to see you. >> always great to be here. called aible.

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