we are following some breaking news live out of paris, france. you are looking at pictures coming out of france. this is out of the after reports two individuals are dead and police are investigating multiple stabbings, and 11:00 p.m. local time there on a s saturday night. we understand that the suspect was killed as well as one person that we believe to be a

bystander as well as those injured. the police are saying that the at tacker shot and killed. anna lease burgess with the euro news is at the scene and joining us on the phone. annalise, we did not see as much activity in the video that we are showing now, and you know the concern would be at this hour, will there be follow-on, and something else associated with the initial attack, and fill us in. >> well, for now, it is hard to say whether there is something else that might come out of this. the police are saying that the situation is now under control, and that the assailant has been shot and killed by the authorities and eyewitnesses have described it as how the police have tried to stop him using a taser, but it did not work. and then they fired two shots against the assailant and killing him. i am right now looking at the scene. there are still quite a few police officers, but also first

responders which leads me to believe that there are still a lot of people, a lot of the wounded are still here. we are talking about at least six people wounded tonight as you described that one of the victims -- we do not know the i identity of the assailant, but we are getting reports that the person might have shouted rather allah akhbar as he was perpetrating the attack. and again, there is absolutely no indication that this is going to lead to any other incidents. for now sh, the situation is qu calm. of course o, there are many journalists where i am standing right now, and there are quite a few police cars and ambulances. the whole area has been cordoned off.

i have been walking around the scene, and the entire area is cordoned off, and people cannot go in or out without speaking to the the authorities. the residents are not allowed the go back home yet, but the police say that for now, the situation is under control. >> anelise, thank you for, that and nbc news not confirming as of yet some of the details for instance the allah akhbar statement, but as we are moving on with the story, anelise, what are you seeing in terms of the number of vehicles. forensics is is very important, and van is back up and about to move in the scene there, and what number of vehicles -- what units have you seen potentially now swarm that very crime scene? >> well, i have seen many ambulances coming out of the crime scene, and since i have been here i have not seen any more cars going in, but from

where i am standing, i can see quite a few vehicles of the security forces that have been at the scene for at least two hours now from where i am standing. there are scientific people investigating. but it is surprisingly calm and mainly journalists walking around asking what happened, but really, there sis a feeling tha the whole situation is indeed as the police were saying under control. >> thank you so much. anelise borges, and the interior minister there saying that it is an odious attack that have witnessed on a saturday. we want to stay on top of the breaking news coming from france throughout the hour here on msnbc. thank you, and we will get back to you later when things develop and if warranted. another story here that we are following on msnbc, and this is the white house aide staffer

who was mocking senator mccain's brain cancer and coming under scrutiny with no apology. sadler had made remarks about mccain's opposition of the opposition of cia nomination by saying that he is dying anyway, and then this morning on the fox news, the office of management and budget nick mulvaney did try to justify the comments. >> and the remarks are awful, but this is a context of the private meeting in the white house, and you might say something nasty about me off of the air, and it is not that much impact, and you come on air and say it officially, and now that is a problem. and this is a private meeting inside of the white house, and a joeshgs and badly considered joke, and a joke that fell flat. >> and now, jonathan swan is saying that turmoil is growing following the white house staff following the leaks of the

comments. and visibly upset kerry sanders leaked the comment saying that i am sure that this conversation is going to leak, too, and that is just disgusting, too, and it did leak. and also n that same meeting, the communications director mercedes shlap said that i stand with kelly sadler, and when contacted which nbc news, she did not deny that comment. and now, we go to grace rou who is a reporter for new york 1, and charlie savidge who is a msnbc contributor, and jeff, going to you, the headline can be saying, that we have leaks of leak, and we talked and it, and then the tone and the energy in the white house, and is that an energy where they are afraid to say anything, and who might be the person who might report on what they have said. >> perhaps. i mean, it is certainly clear that the white house is viewing this as a leak problem and not a

crude comment problem based on the public comments from nick mulvaney and mercedes schlapp and i reached out to her after the ax yoes report and a source said, yes, she is standing by kelly sadler, and she is viewing the bigger problem as white house officials and particularly the officials in the press shop of turning on each thoefrmt one thing to note here, richard, sources confirming to me that kelly sadler did in fact make that crude and cruel comment about john mccain, they make clear that it is said in such a way that she thought that it would land well in the room, and it is well received among those hearing it, and frankly, one understands why she would feel that way given that president trump has disparaged john mccain in a way that is well e beyond mccain and the president being on the opposing views of the various political views. the president mocked the fact that he was a p.o.w., and the

atmosphere that the president has created in his own white house given his statements and the reluctance to apologize for some of those statements. we don't know if kelly sadler has apologize and we know that she has called meghan mccain, and the fact that she reached is out one of the indications that she knows that she did something wrong. richard? >> well, what are you seeing here, because we have heard so many come out in defense of senator mccain, and many of them disgusted with this report of what was said. what are you seeing? >> well, look, there is no question that republicans and democrats alike have come to the defense of senator john mccape, and the republican from arizona, and i think that we should note that the policy here that really was the beginning of all of, this and this is of course gina haspel who is the choice to lead the cia and john mccain did come

out against her because of her previous support of the torture program that she testified this week in the senate that she no longer supports, and that said, gina haspel has garnered the support of centrists with republican and republicans, including susan kol lins from e maine, and others ash sond this is really, this the situation has poured even more political gasoline on the already tense and tough confirmation fight for gina haspel to lead the c can ia. >> -- cia. >> and i want to read that statement. we respect senator mccain's service to the nation and he and his family are in our prayers during this difficult time. and charlie savidge, in terms of the tenor here, and the sense of decorum, and the criticisms about if this is about the message or the leak. >> well, i mean, anyone who

believes that this white house actually is praying for mccain and respects him has not been paying attention to this white house or the relationship with senator mccain going back to the campai campaign. i totally agree with the earlier remarks about the tone being set by the president who, you know, having gotten out of ofighting in vietnam when he got out of college but i getting a doctor to give him a diagnosis of bone spurs, and then magically disappeared mokd cked mccain fo having been capture ed d in tha war, and it would be ridiculous for the white house to throw an aide under the bus when they set that tone, but they have to be careful here, because john mccain likes the to do the mavericky thing and stick the thumb in the eye of the white house, a house, and it is not like they are the only ones firing here, and remember the famous thumb down on the health care bill. and he could mess them up, as a last gesture or mess up trumpland by retiring before the end of may, before this month is

out. if he retires, the before, a seat becoming open before the month is out, the democrats have a shot to take it in a special election this cycle. after june, even if he were to pass away or retire, there is a new appointee going to 2020, and this is a cycle in which the republicans do not want the seats they can control to be vulnerable to the blue wave, so watch that as the tensions rise. >> and special election and what have you and depending upon what the senator decides to do and what is happening. so when we look at, this grace, you being a reporter, focusing on the past on donald trump as well as his company, as well as what he has done, some are saying, well, this is very indicative and reflective of the way that this president has managed in the past, and so it is the culture of the communication as well if you wi will. >> yes, you could argue that the aide is taking cues from the top, and the idea that megan

mccain publicly said that i don't understand how an aide to the president could say something like that and still come back to work the nextt day and have a job, but i don't understand how the white house could fire someone frankly for saying something like this, because it is no worse than what the president himself has said and not behind closed doors but publicly back in july 2015 in the early days of the campaign as geoff bennett said, disparaging john mccain for having been captured saying they don't like people who have been captured, and so the tone is set at the top, and so this is a white house where they have said that this type of the language we approve of, and frankly on m message, and so the report out about sarah sanders meeting with the team being visibly upset, and by all accounts she was upset with the leak, and this not somebody upset by the fact that the comment was made but by the fact that everyone is now talking about the comment, and there is a communications team that is not totally on message, and are turning on each other. >> and what we have seen here,

kevin, everybody is coming out in defense of him, as i said earlier, but what i think that is going to be some takeaway is that, he still has a grasp and effect on the beltway despite not being there for month, and he is part of the conversation, and the way that policy will be debated going forward. >> well, the perception up on capitol hill of senator john mccain outside of the belt wways that senator mccain is a profile in courage, and there is nobody on the left or the right who would question that. i think that the question becomes whether or not his, how he plans to continue to impact the policy debate within the republican party. and that he is clearly having an impact on that, and case in point, the opposition to gina haspel because of the concerns over torture, and many folks within, you know, the left or the right, who really do feel that he is someone who carries significant weight given his

heroic experiences to speak about these issues, and he is, and people listen when he talks on them. >> a lot of moving parts on them, and thank you all four for being with us. >> thank you, richard. >> all right. still ahead, why the decision on robert mueller's interview is not going to happen until after the president's summit with north korea. this is bill's yard. and bill has a "no-weeds, not in my yard" policy. but with scotts turf builder weed & feed, bill has nothing to worry about. it kills weeds and greens grass, guaranteed. this is a scotts yard.

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the president. he walked back the quote that the presidenter merger, and speaking by phone, he said that the president had no knowledge, and he said that trump was against the merger when running for president, and his reversal is the latest attempt to explain that michael cohen did not improperly influence the administration after it was revealed this week that cohen received large sums of money from cohen in the election, and meanwhile, giuliani revealed new details of the russian investigation discussing a possible time frame for special council robert mueller and saying that i think that we have a couple of weeks to decide. and he said that the trump team would request a delay until after the summit with kim jong-un. and bringing the professor from the alabama school of law, and also a msnbc contributor and daily beast columnist and author

of the book "how the catch a spy," welcome. and joyce, was this reporting of the michael cohen payments as avenatti said up to $4 million or the association with the president in that whole space there, what is standing out the you, joyce? >> well, the most important thing to focus on, richard, is that we don't have all of the facts that are necessary to form a judgment about whether cohen's conduct was merely swampy or whether it was krim a nal. -- -- criminal, and so we have to be aware of that and not too quick to rush to judgment, but because the decision s as are b us knowledge, we have to look at whether this is going to be an inappropriate pay to play scheme where access to the president is the result of payment or operhaps some connections to russia, and the collusion

connection that is the subject of the mueller investigation. >> when is i it, joyce, moving from swampy into criminal or illegal? when would that happen and what would you be look g fing for? >> so, what would happen in any number of different ways, because what the prosecution has to do is to prove that people violated a specific statute, and every criminal law in the federal criminal code has different requirements. much of the central issue in this sort of a case would involve knowledge and intent. so we will look for both the factual pattern and did money perhaps move from cohen on to people surrounding trump, but also to the intent of the actors involved in this, and for instance for the campaign finance violation, was there a willful and knowing violation of the ak acceptance of the funding from foreigners in an effort to influence the election, and so a lot of different pieces that have to be assimilated here

before final decision s cs can made. >> and then rudy giuliani and the comments thereabout when the president may or may not be meeting with the special counsel mueller and saying that we need to push it off until after the june 12th meeting in north korea, because the president is intimating here, that he has to get ready for the very important meeting and what might that mean that he has a couple or several weeks here to make a decision. >> i think it is just an attempt to sort of manipulate the news cycle and to do so, you know, potentially after good news that favored him well, and so, to go back to what joyce is saying, i think that you are right, the minutia and the specifics are known and what we are seeing is a pattern, and a pattern of the president who refuses to release the tax return, and look at the end of the day, what the russians are looking for sack cess, and the way they will do it is essentially a pattern with somebody like michael cohen, and where there is a gray area to

look for access to do something that is somewhat legitimate and somewhat overt, and i think that without that full disclosure that would have happened prior to the election, we don't know this, and so po oten shally rudy joule y giuliani needs to review everything to see if there is something in there potentially to be a smoking gun to show the nexus between a businessman who would have had access to rich donors and potentially a russian intelligence operation who would have used the rich donors to use them to get access to the president. and that could be the reason for the delay as well. >> and you seen, navid, the reporting that joyce and i were talking about, and the revenue coming in through michael cohen, and the fact if there were some russian influencers and what concerns you about it? >> i think that the whole thing concerns me. russia wanting to do this gangs,

they don't want to say, hey, we don't want you to aspire to mother rush sharks but it is something legitimate and overt and something as gray as lobbying and gray as political donation as, and something that straddles the line of illegality and politically is what you a hear here as unwigt asset, and so it may have started in a legal and overt legal manner, but did it turn the page and become something else in which the russians were directing and which we could show something like collusion, and this is what concerns me, and we don't have the fact, and at the end of the day, richard, the fact that the president of the united states has yet to return release the tax returns should be concerning. >> and joyce, lawmakers are looking to work on a plan b to protect mueller and the data he is collecting and the thoughts? >> well, they seem to be recognizing that mitch mcconnell won't let a bill that overtly protect mueller come to the floor, so what they are trying to do is to come u wip with pla

and whether it is legal p protection to be released if he is fired or require the preservation of oevidence or if it is a political strategy that involves the lawmakers in essence swamping mueller's office to stand as a protective force in the event of a firing and it is clear that democrats and joined by some republicans are trying to decide what to do if the worst happens. >> thank you, both v. a go. have a very good weekend. thank you. and despite a testy confirmation hearing, gina haspel is closer to becoming the cia director, and the show of support she picked up today. - i love my grandma. - anncr: as you grow older, your brain naturally begins to change which may cause trouble with recall. - learning from him is great... when i can keep up!

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we are going to update you here on the breaking news that we are following. 11:28 p.m. in paris, france. police say that the man went on a stabbing spree in a popular area in the paris opera area. this happened about an hour ago, and one person was killed and four injure ed a d a and two of in serious condition. the suspect was killed by officers responding to the the scene. you can still see in some of the video here that it is a very active scene. no word on the motive and we are

watching that, and of course o, we will update you here on msnbc as we get more information. in the recent hours, president trump's controversial cia nominee gina haspel as democratic house senator joe donnelly said that he will get his job or rather she will get the vote to serve a as the agency's next director, and she is the second democrat to announce a vote in addition to the joe manchin of west virginia. and that is after a comment from kelly sadler who said that john mccain's vote does not matter, because he is dying anyway. and she has held on to her position, despite mocking mccain's battle with brain cancer. and let's bring in the former deputy chief to hud, and contributor the hill, and emily tisch, and also, director of the progress action fund, and also,

former counter terrorism analyst and cyber and homeland security. and let's start with the information we are getting here. as we are look at the two democrats to be on the side for haspel to be confirmed, does it look that now based on what you are hearing that she is going to make it through? >> yes, i have talked to a few of my former colleagues who work on the hill and all indications are that she is indeed going to be confirmed. i think that the position of at least a lot of the republicans is that she is probably the best qualified individual to lead the age agency since its inception. i don't think that you can think of anyone else more qualified, and if you are thinking of the torture question, during that time, i did some research and i found that old washington post/nbc poll that indicated overwhelmingly majority of the americans at the time supported torture, and if you are going

back to last year, and do some research, you will find a recent pew reser arch poll that americs do support torture in some limited aspects and 39% don't, so it is a divided america on this issue, and in terms of the qua qualifications, it is not better than this and she is not only qualify -- qualified b shy -- and she is going to be nominated. >> and so, i hope it is not going that way. as we have heard the classified portion of the hearing after the public hearing, the senators came out of that briefing saying that they were not sure if they had been leaning towards if they could continue to support her, and we heard that from claire mccaskill who would want to be in a position to support someone looking strong on a national security from ta state that trump won. but we need somebody to stand up on the moral authority to trump

on torture, but she is not that person given that she oversaw a site that engaged in torture so many times and active participant in covering it up. unfortunately, it seems that covering it up is a key qualification for serving in in this administration. >> and emily, she has said that she would not support such a program. >> she did say so, but it is unable to say that it was an immoral act in the first place which is something that is key in this situation. considering the fact that the president trump campaigned on torture, he also cam pand on killing families which is a war crime. so we do need to be sending a message that we would not be promoting people within the agency who would have partaken in torture, itself. look at the message that it is sending throughout the agency and the world that is being sent that america is no longer going to adhere to the geneva convention and it is dangerous. >> she also said that she beliefs that torture does not work in the testimony.

>> and aki, you being a cia guy, and what is your thought and how did she do in the testimony, and answer that question about the enhanced interrogation techniques? >> one tof the things that i wa really a little disappointed in her, and number one, i would like to say that the people i respect across the political spectrum support her for a variety of reasons, and i watch watched the testimony, but i wish she had not leaned back on the legalisms when especially senator kamal la harris came out asking if it is immoral or not, and answering moral or immoral question with legalities is not going to help your case very much. in terms of does torture or the brutal practice, and brutal physical practices actually work or not, and what john brennan, the former dci said, we can't go back to look, because these are brutal tactics to get actionable

intelligence, and with that said, i wish she had take the anne strong stance and saying we did these things and we realized it is a mistake and she should have pivoted and said, since i have been through the crucible, and since i understand that things are happening when you are put under pressure, i am the best qualified individual to fight and stop a white house and a president that might ask me to do something immoral or illegal. >> and aki, this is your community as you are speaking with your formerer intelligence colleagues, after she gave testimony, what is your thought? what is the energy? would they feel good about her leading the cia? >> the folks that i have talked to both inside of the building and also former folks generally like her, because number one she is really going to understand the issues in intelligence facing the community, and the united states for the next several years. one of the other issues that i think that we should really think about is if not gina haspel and it is going to be

somebody else? tom cotton? erik prince the former head of blackwater and anybody, and if you are looking at trump's other appointees and sometimes you have people who are wildly unqualified for the position, and so whatever you want to say putting aside the brutal tactics that gina haspel who was a mid-high-level person in the federal government who was part of this effort, whatever you want to say about her, she actually understands the issues facing this country and facing the cia today. >> and 15 second, shermichael, would you feel better if it is not haspel, if wirt to be tom c cotton? >> no, i would not. and look, you are learning from the mistake, right. so i think that she learned and is someone like her spending 30 years at the central intelligence agency, you have to have a lot of courage, and you have to be a strong individual and someone who can persevere through all thing, and i can guarantee you that if president trump is asking her to do something against her moral or ethics, i believe she is going to have the courage to say no.

>> and three decades of field experience. and so we will see what happens as the vote goes forward. thank you. next, national outrage after the violent a arrest of two african-americans at a two different waffle houses all caught on video. what might seem like a small cough to you... can be a big bad problem that you could spread to family members, including your grandchildren babies too young to be vaccinated against whooping cough are the most at risk for severe illness. but you can help prevent this. talk to your doctor today about getting vaccinated against whooping cough. because dangers don't just exist in fairytales. a hilton getaway means you get more because... you get another day in paradise. get a sunset on a sunday. get more stories to share. get more from your summer getaway with exclusive hilton offers. book yours, only at hilton.com essential for the cactus, but maybe not for people with rheumatoid arthritis.

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at pnc, we're here to help you take steps today to make a plan to borrow and stick with it. bienvenido a casa, papá. pnc. make today the day. an incident at a north carolina waffle house calling n into question the issue of communities and people of color. this video was capture odd an

cell phone showing a tuxedo-clad 22-year-old north carolina man choked by police. he had just taken his sister to the prom. nbc news is not able to kconfir what happened before the cameras started rolling there, and this is less than a month after a woman in alabama was wrestled to the ground by police at a waffle house which has led bernice king, civil rights icon to call for the boycott of that chain. and waffle house meanwhile, and the statement says that the review of the latest incident does not indicate that race is a factor in calling the police. gloria brown marshall is joining us right now, and the constitutional law at john jay college, and also, theward of the naacp award for struggle for justice. and also, todd larson as well. and so you can list four or five incidents as of late in the headlines and i was going

through some of them, and when we are looking at this latest reporting, one has to go, has anything really changed in the what we are seeing in the last five or six years? >> well, it is hard to -- >> and more. >> and more than that of course, but it is hard to say, that i think that social media has played a role in exposing these sort of the everyday kind of the racially motivated or the biased incidents that are occurring, and whether you have black men sitting in the starbucks waiting for a friend or a black woman at yale a graduate student a taking a nap after studying or black women playing golf or three black men shopping at in order stram ra-- nordstrom rack, or people of color going to the waffle house. this is something that black americans feel is their right or the citizens of the country, but for some reason the police become involved, and tension somehow is escalated, you know, during otherwise ordinary events

that nobody would think anything else of except when the police are involved and you have to ask yourself, why is that? what is making folks so uncomfortable to involve the police in the everyday incidents. >> and gloria, what are you telling the students? how are you discussing this? what are you telling them about leadership, and how we can get to the better place? >> well, i truly believe this is the next great generation of young people, and so they have a responsibility to make the world a better place, but i am telling them that these microaggression s and the racial incidents didn't start in this time period, but they have become more aggressive i believe because donald trump has a authorized people to come out of the box with the hatred, and come out of the box, and use their power against people of color to reassert a white supremacy, and they are using the police to do this, and that is what is so unfair about these police calls that if you have an unfortunately during the me too

movement and white women primarily calling the police saying that you have to come here and stop these brown or black people from doing what they are doing, and because they feel fearful of brown people, black people. >> and so, gloria, in the polling, those who think that the president is a racist, african americans, 84% of them say yes, and whites 47% say yes. how is the authorizing of these sorts of actions and how is he doing it? >> he is authorizing it, because even in the campaign when he had protesters or protesters of color, and he is saying beat the people up, and i will get you out of jail later, and he is authorizing it by making fun of people with disabilities, and he is authorizing by having these all-white sessions of the people who are in leadership position, and not seeing a problem with the country as diverse as this one, and he is authorizing it as saying, basically when the ku klux clan and white supremacists

marched through charlotteville, virginia, there is nothing wrong but protesting with the tiki lights and not realizing that this is bringing the image of the ku klux klan which is a supremacist organization, and releasing deep seeded feelings in the country. >> and when you gave president obama the speech on race, and he did not want to, but he had to, and we often look to the president of the united states in this country, when we are looking for leadership when it comes to such painful pieces of video that we have had to watch several times in this segment, and what might be able to be said by this president that could get us to a better place? >> i am not sure that president trump is necessarily in a position to give a talk about the treatment of people of color an marginalized people in the country country. it is a subject that he has not broeshed in any specific detail either in the campaign or the presidency, and as gloria

mentioned, in the campaign when those issues sort of came up, it was sort of a spectacle talking to african-americans, and specifically, what the he will, l do you have so lose, and referencing my african-american speaking to one gentlemen in the crowd, and even in the presidency, there is a spectacle of it, and even his mention of kayne west and talk about the support -- >> and the question of oeven understand understanding the dynamics of the communities of color. >> but there is no connection there, and he has not shown no the american people in a public space in the presidency that he wants to touch the issues, and that he even wants to wade poin the waters of, you know, racial inequality or the systemic racism, and employment discrimination and all of the things that we are seeing play out at the starbucks, yale, at the waffle house or the golf course. this is not a subject that this president is particularly comfortable with. >> and if i could mention one quick thing very quick. how do we fight it? that is the question, if the president is not going to help us, this en we have to figure

out a way to fight this injustice and this oppression. >> and thank you very much, gloria brown, and todd marshall thom thompson. and now, fresh out of prison, meek mill is going to talk about the revelations he discovered from behind bar, and what he would say to president trum fp he had a chance to meet him. >> if you had a summons to talk to president trump, and forget how we feel about him, and what would you tell him? >> i would tell him, let's go to the neighborhood, and you have bulletproof cars, let's bring them to the neighborhood, and get out the bulletproof cars and see if you will feel comfortable sitting near this area, and you feel like you need a gun here, and would you be feeling comfortable on to he area where the neighborhood is plagued with drugs everywhere. >> and you can see the rest of the interview with reverend sharpton with meek mill tomorrow. ssistance helped him to fix his flat

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latino lawmakers blasting chief of staff john kelly over what hispanic caucus chair called bigoted remarks on immigrants. that's what we are watching this week. in an interview with npr friday kelly defending zero tolerance

policy for border crossings. >> the vast majority of people that move illegal into the united states are not bad people. they are not criminals. not ms-13. but they are also not people that would easily asim laid into the united states. they are overwhelmingly rural people. and the countries they come from, fourth, fifth, sixth grade educations are kind the norm. they are coming here for a reason. and i sympathize with the reason. but the laws are the laws. >> let's bring in maria teresa kumar. we also have victoria defrancesco thank you both for spending time with us. >> thank you. >> maria, what does he mean there? >> i think it's clear that under this administration we have an incredibly xenophobic individual that believes there is just a certain type of american. and john kelly forgets his own roots where his great grandfather he himself did not know the language, had an elementary education, was a

farmer and was able to come to this country and make it because that is what the american ideal is. i think we have to be careful. because some folks say those are just words. those words are turning into policy. we are now separating mothers and children at the border. at the border more or less they are seeking political asylum. they are trying to come to this country as refugees more or less. there is a process held by the geneva conventions where they have to be heard. but the administration is basically trying to water down their grievances and trying to dehumanize this population. when asked what was going to happen when the children were separated from their parents he said foster care or whatever. that is an indication that he doesn't consider these kids someone that should be cared for. >> victoria, he is alluding to session's parents and children into the u.s. illegally, they will be separated. they were reporting 7:00

situations such as that. how is that translating in states like yours, texas. >> two weeks i took my immigration policy class down to the karns family detention center to see the faces of these individuals. it's something so powerful. when we talk about these folks in the media, it's like oh, these are folks who are coming over and trying to game the system. they are bringing over the kids to do just that. but when you hear the stories about the nightmarish situations that they are living in in their home countries, the violence perpetrated by gangs like ms-3, the political turmoil, you cannot but doubt why these folks are coming here. i would ask john kelly to sit down with some of these women and their children and hear their stories and look them in the eye because what is happening is we are losing the human kpoement. the folks are coming here for asylum, refugee, and as theresa said, a better american life-style. >> yeah. mean these folks have zero

chance of making it. this is why they come to the u.s. >> victoria what did your students tell you after? what was it they learned? what was the impact of what they saw that day? >> they knew all of the nuts and bolts of immigration policy but when they went there every one of them had a feeling that they said, i had no idea how serious this was. i knew what it was on paper, but looking in the eyes of these women and their children, i have to go out and i have to do something. so all of these students who are interested in immigration policy now have a new motivation to do so. i think folks who doubt the motivations of folks who come here need to speak to these people. >> maria, you and i spoke, you know my grandfather came here illegally and was a farmer. this is more than the latino lawmakers watching this steer. >> that's right. all these individuals that are all of a sudden getting removed from temporary protection

status, the haitians the nicaragu nicaraguans. they are looking now at the vietnamese. it's all with the understanding unless congress acts the administration is going to create a whole new segment of undocumented people that didn't exist before. that's close to a million people who were here documented that had some protection that all of a sudden the government is going to say overnight that they are not. government is basically supposed to aid people at scale. this government they are hurting people at scale. and they are not being frank or leveling with american. immigration is not something that's nice to have. it is a necessity across all scales. the majority of our fellow americans, they are aging out. who is going to be the one to be the folks that basically contribute to our economy, contribute to our entrepreneurship. the united states has thought it was the only ball game in town.

it's not. where do we get the industry and the laborers -- i believe you can be a farmer and that is a skill and not every one of my fellow americans is going to plow the field to make sure they get the food on the table for the rest of the can un. >> thank you both for your time today. >> thank you richard. >> thank you richard. that wraps it up for us right here at nbc b msnbc this hour. follow me on facebook, instagram and twitter. let me know what you think, if you have ideas. also stick around for this -- all in with chris hayes -- that's next. alright, i brought in new max protein

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