we start with that breaking news first revealed in the president's financial disclosure form. the office of government ethics saying that a payment made in 2016 by president donald trump's long-time personal attorney michael cohen to an adult film actress should have been included on the president's financial disclosure form last year. the president's most recent disclosure released today shows a payment to michael cohen of between 100 and $250,000. the president's attorney rudy giuliani was the first to admit that payments made to cohen to repay him for things like that hush money to stormy daniels were, quote, funneled from trump through cohen's law firm to cohen himself as reimbursement. what started as a defense against campaign finance violations may have landed the president in ethical hot water. the "the new york times" reporting, quote, a letter accompanying the report sent to rod rosenstein, the deputy attorney general from the government ethics office as

acting director david arpol, said the office of government ethics had determined, quote, the payment made by cohen is required to be reported as a liability. msnbc analyst joyce vance putting a point on it, looks like campaign finance violation. this is tantamount to a criminal referral. oge has effectively reported the president to d.o.j. for potentially committing a crime. joining us to discuss the news, michael avenatti who represents stormy daniels. also joined by frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director, former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade. first your reaction to the breaking news today the president has potentially been referred to deputy attorney general rosenstein for committing a crime. >> well, nicolle, the fact of

the matter is that these folks can't get their stories straight and they can't figure out what they want to do, what they should be doing is telling the truth and they should have stole the truth a long time ago. this disclosure today proves the following. michael cohen has been lying to the american people for months. david schwartz, the individual who came on national television repeatedly on many networks and stated that the president never reimbursed -- reimbursed the payment and knew nothing about it is lying to the american people. mr. giuliani as recently as a week ago has been lying to the american people about how this occurred and when it occurred because, according to the disclosure today, it occurred back in 2017. mr. trump lied to the american people when he was on board air force one on video and stated he knew nothing about the payment. so, this disclosure today completely under cuts all of that to begin with and then secondly, it kristen sze atsz significant problems as to why this wasn't disclosed last year. it appears to be part of the continued cover up relating to what the president knew and when he knew it ask what he did about

it. i don't believe -- we still don't have the truth as to those questions and it's going to be sometime until we do, whether that's in response to a deposition or a schwarzenegger statement by mr. trump in response to mr. mueller or whether it's going to be in response to a deposition by me. >> you have maintained that you believe you will arrive at a point in your case where you will have an opportunity to depose the president. does today's news change your belief that that is ultimately what will transpire between you and the president? >> well, i think it actually adds additional fuel to the fire, the burning fire as to whether we're going to get a chance do that because every time another piece of information comes out that further undercuts other statements that had been made over the last six months, i think the chances of us taking that deposition, of having an opportunity for that deposition only grow higher and i think that's where we are this afternoon. >> let's, let's just lay it all out there. you exploded onto the scene after a little story about -- in

the "wall street journal" of all raging liberal media outlets, published a story about the treasury department and a financial institution flagging a suspicious payment. you have since released reports about suspicious activity report stars. your central contention at the beginning was that the contract that prohibited your client from speaking out about what she had encountered or dealt with with the president was null and void because it wasn't signed. just take us through how today's development relates to the original case and some of the fact pattern from the original filing of your case to get stormy daniels out of the nda to the revelation today and the disclosure from the president that he was indeed the person repaying michael cohen the hush money for your client. >> well, very often in a case you begin to pull on a string and you don't necessarily know what that is going to result in. >> did you really not know? >> well, we had a pretty good

idea of what some of the things -- >> how did you have an idea? >> some of the dominos that might fall. look, we've had the good fortune of having mr. trump on the other side of this case and the great fortune of having mr. giuliani on the other side and the extreme great fortune of having mr. cohen on the other side of this case and they've done us a lot of good along the way and have helped out tremendously every time they go on television and make a statement they know to be false. that only assists us. and what we did know was that the denial by mr. cohen that mr. trump -- his statement that mr. trump knew nothing about this and that mr. trump never reimbursed him, we knew that that was ultimately going to be proven to be nonsense. >> i think we have that video of the president denying that on air force one. do we have that? let's watch that. >> mr. president, did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no. >> then why, why did michael cohen make that -- >> you have to ask michael

cohen. michael is my attorney and you'll have to ask michael. >> do you know where he got the money to make that payment? >> no, i don't know. >> so, you watch that in real time knowing he was lying. >> yeah, and i think i said at the time that i knew that that was going to prove to be false and you have the president of the united states on board air force one on video making known misstatements to the american people according to the disclosure today. those reimbursements occurred in the year 2017. this is in april of this year. and, look, this is all part of a concentrated cover up relating to this payment, relating to essential consultants. and sooner or later these folks are going to come clean voluntarily or they're going to be outed by us and others as it relates to the true facts. >> and let me also put up rudy giuliani as you said seemed to make things worse for the president when he talked about funneling money from the president of the united states to various women. and he had what doesn't match

up. let's see if we have rudy giuliani talking about funneling money. >> sorry, i'm giving you a fact now that you don't know. it's not campaign money, no campaign finance violation. so -- >> they funneled it through a law firm? >> funneled through a law firm and the president repaid it. >> oh, i didn't know he did. >> he did, shawn. >> that's my favorite part. >> my favorite part of the whole year so far. but let me ask you, because we talked about -- i asked you if other women have come forward. associates of the president do not believe that there's only one stormy daniels. luckily for them there is only one of you, but they believe that there were many such arrangements and rudy giuliani seemed to believe that when talking about something that has clearly, in rudy giuliani's mind, been operationalized. the funneling of money doesn't sound like it happened more than

once. it's meant to keep the president's embarrassing secret secret. do you have any evidence there are still things that are not true about the financial disclosure form filed today? >> we are not technically representing anyone else at this time. but i will tell you that i believe this to be the tip of the iceberg. and among other things, i will state that i think it was david schwartz on megyn kelly's show sometime ago that said that michael cohen's job was to be a 24-hour seven day a week fixer for the president to clean things up. you don't need a 24/7 fixer unless you're breaking a lot of things. a breaking a lot of things including a lot of laws, frank? >> let's put this on the financial digs closure in context. there are three scenarios, two of them are really bad for the president and one screams correct -- credulity. the president said he knew

michael takes care of such things. scenario number two, the president knew about the payments, knew there were illegalities underlying the payments, money laundering, emoluments clause, fictitious corporations and decided to pay him back anyway, ha makes him an accessory after the fact. number three, he didn't know there were illegalities, he paid him back, he's a conspirator. that makes him in trouble today. >> i'd like to know if you agree with that assessment. add in the "a wrinkle in time" of of rod rosenstein, another ticking time bomb in his inbox. >> these financial disclosure forms are filed under penalty of perjury. so, if last year's financial disclosure form should have included this statement, there is that possibility. i don't know how frequently these cases are actually prosecuted. prosecutors exercise a lot of discretion and make decisions because you have to prove the person knew the statement was false at the time they made it. but it could lend credence to

another theory which is this idea of consciousness of guilt, that he knows that he's done something wrong and that's why he left it off the form in the past. that could be a window into what's going on in his mind which is often the hardest thing to prove. all those theories frank just talked about, the hardest part of it is proving a corrupt intent. but when someone lies on a financial disclosure form or lies to the press about something, that can indicate this consciousness of guilt. i've got something to hide and it's a much bigger crime than this little lie i'm telling right now. >> that seems to be the thread that runs through all of these investigations. there has now been a referral to d.o.j. i imagine where they prosecute it or not is an unknown at this hour. there will at least be an investigation into putting these forms together, things that were not true being put on these forms, whether it was done so knowingly or not. certainly in jared kushner's case he amended his background forms. i have filled out those forms on two occasions and the meticulousness you go back and

try to remember every little thing in your life is unrecognizable in the way everyone, from the president on down, treats these. these are in a normal administration crimes to lie on these forms. but it seems like in some ways the least of their problems, or is it? >> well, look, the key question here for trump is whether or at what time cohen had requested repayment. so, when the debt was incurred which seems to be in 2016. when it was actually paid. if you lie on the form it's a problem for him. if you knowingly lie it's a problem as we discussed. what else was omitted from that form? if he leaves off a payment or a debt to his long-time advisor, imagine the scope of things he might have left off that would be even more inconvenient or em biarritzi embarrassing for him. that is an unknown. it could point the way to many other problems if investigators start delving closely into that form and what was on it and not on it. >> you have a crystal ball that

i don't know where you got it, but i want a line on it. >> it was at a flea market. >> it always is. that's what every guy says. but tell me if you know, you seem to have a jump sometimes on future damaging revelations about the president. do you know any more than you're able to share today about other payments to other women or other people that were paid out to keep things that are embarrassing secret? >> i have other information, but i'm not at liberty to talk about it right now. but i want to go back and touch on something that was just discussed, and that is how was the form put together. i want to concentrate not not the form that was just filed. i want to talk about the form last year and how that was put together. let's back up in time and talk about that, okay. we're talking about may of last year when that form was put together. the president has been in office at that time, probably four, five months. let's talk about likely how that form was compiled. they didn't just sit down with mr. trump and say, tell us all of your details and then fill out the form and have him sign it. let's be realistic. that's not what happened.

what happened was whoever was charged with compiling that information went to the people around mr. trump that were close to him that would have knowledge of transactions, assets, liabilities, expenditures and the like. i find it very, very difficult to believe that one of the people that was not consulted was mr. cohen. i find it impossible to believe that mr. cohen would not have been consulted in connection with a compilation of the 2016 financial disclosure form. and what this is really going to come down to is what did mr. cohen as an agent of mr. trump -- he's an attorney, he's a personal attorney of the president -- what did mr. cohen tell whoever was compiling this form and what did he fail to tell them and what did he conceal from them as it related to liabilities and namely the stormy daniels payment. and that's going to be an area of inquiry and that is going to be really i think a center question as it relates to this 2016 form and why this liability was not disclosed. >> and let me ask you, mr. cohen isn't just an agent of the president or his lawyer who

likely had a role in putting that form together last year. he is also someone largely rumored to be facing very dire personal legal exposure right now. is this the kind of thing that he might be willing to cooperate with, to help investigators understand what was true and what was false in last year's financial disclosure form as part of any sort of arrangement for leniency for himself with investigators? >> so, i worked organized crime figures. i worked high level drug cartel leaders. eventually they have a breaking point, and i believe that michael cohen will eventually break when it's laid out for him the federal sentencing guidelines, all the exposure he has, the ramifications on his family. he will eventually break. >> and what will he tell us? what does he know? what kinds of things as an fbi agent would you want to know from michael cohen? >> what interests me the most, we're asking this question. donald trump is asking a similar question. you know why? he doesn't know what michael cohen documented in his office,

right? if the president doesn't use e-mails, what is it michael cohen does after he hangs up the phone or meets with the president? how much of this is memorialized? the president doesn't know it and we don't know it. this is going to get into money laundering,

and still ahead, alive and well, new evidence the investigation into possible collusion between donald trump's campaign and the russians is very much ongoing. what we now know about the questions still being asked about the campaign and its contacts with russians.

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you look at the corruption at the top of the fbi, it's a disgrace. and our justice department, which i try and stay away from -- but at some point, i won't -- our justice department should be looking at that kind of stuff, not the nonusns of collusion with russia. >> he sounds stable. president trump claiming as he often does that the fbi and the justice department are out to get him. but a new report from "the new york times" reveals that as the 2016 election drew near, those agencies may have been the ones

to inadvertently by their professionalism to have made trump's victory more likely staying silent on a budding investigation into his campaign. fearful of leaks, fbi agents kept details from political appointees across the street at the justice department. peter strzok, a senior fbi agent explained in a text justice department officials would find it too tasty to resist sharing. quote, i'm not worried about our side, he wrote. only about five justice department officials knew the full scope of the case officials said, not the dozen or more who might normally be briefed on a major national security case. the facts, had they surfaced, might have devastated the trump campaign. mr. trump's future national security advisor was under investigation as was his -- joining us now, one of the reporters ons that story, matt apuzzo, "the new york times" justice reporter barbara frank

and nick are still here. matt, i can read every paragraph and ask you to tell me more, but let me just start with the excerpts that i read. this seems to do two things. one, give us the most in-depth look at what was actually going on inside the fbi where there are now known to have been investigating both campaigns, one very publicly and one very secretly. just to that can you tell us what your reporting lays out here? >> yeah, one of the things we found out was within the first hours of getting this information that george papadopoulos had -- was obviously a trump campaign advisor -- had told the australian ambassador to the united kingdom that he had advance knowledge about russian dirt on hillary clinton. the fbi actually secretly sent a pair of agents to london in an extremely unusual move, actually had the ambassador to the u.k. sit for an fbi interview.

so, a diplomat from a foreign government sitting for an fbi interview. this was an extremely interview, intense, the investigations went all the way back to the capital of australia cann berra. it was tense, but the australians were willing to do it. this was so closely held that many inside the fbi didn't know this was happening. that document formed the basis for much of the investigation that we now know as the mueller case. and it is extremely closely held, extremely secret, and the investigation was given a code name, cross fire hurricane, that frankly really seemed to predict the political storm that the fbi

finds itself in right now. >> i was going to read some of that. i'm going to go ahead -- [ technical difficulty ] i was born in a cross fire hurricane and that prediction of a political storm that continues to tear shingles off the bureau. i want to put up a list of all the ousted fbi officials and ask you what you learned in your reporting of any of their role in this. james comey, former fbi director, andrew mccabe, his deputy, a corroborating witness for comey, james baker i believe he was the general counsel, also corroborating witness, and james rybicki also part of the comey-led fbi. were they all in the know? and did they all keep this secret? >> absolutely, they were all in the know. and in one of the criticisms actually that you hear often

from inside the bureau, even from people who say, look, we never saw anything that was done untoward here, one of the criticisms in the fbi and d.o.j. is that -- [ technical difficulty ] they assigned the same groups of agents to them both. and the logic of that was this will help us keep it secret, right, and it will make sure our best people are on it. the flipsid3 to that is by bringing them into headquarters, you put a bull's-eye right on the center of the fbi and you put the same team on both. if anything happens, if there are any mistakes with one case, it jeopardizes the sort of -- it allows people to criticize the whole thing and it puts a bull's-eye at the heart of the fbi. and that is exactly what happened. obviously mccabe has been fired. he's been criticized in the internal investigation, you know, comey's been fired.

the text messages between lisa page and pete strzok have come out and showed obviously they had no love for donald trump. so, there was -- there were a lot of unforced error in this that have given ammunition to the president to say, see, the fbi is out to get me. but our investigation found that, on the contrary, far from being out to -- gunning for president trump, they gave him, you know, they didn't give him credit, but they certainly took steps that ultimately ended up protecting him. >> the fbi, peter strzok, the agent that matt apuzzo reports on extensively throughout his reporting today, is one of the biggest boogie men on a competing network. he is targeted for character assassination, night after night after night. his texts are turned into graphics on another network night after night after night. i believe he's part of the mueller crime family.

we learned that the opposite is true. what do you make of matt's reporting and this very notion that the entire sham of depicting the fbi where you served and the justice department as being part of the deep state is literally blown up in paragraph after paragraph of this report? >> it's almost like in the dictionary under the word irony, this scenario should be listed. you have the very same people being barbed by the white house, including pete strzok, who is going out of his way to compartmentalize, to winnow down the number of people in the building who know, the number of people at d.o.j. who know at great risk, and in the very same team that worked hillary working the trump case in the counter intelligence investigation. this is the fbi at its best, its professionalism, it's nonpartisan. this is what many of us insiders have known for a long time.

>> i want to read this section to you. this is your area of expertise. counter tin tell jensz investigations can take years. if the russian government had influence over the trump campaign, the fbi wanted to know quickly. one option was the most direct. interview the campaign officials about their russian contacts. that was discussed but not acted on two former officials said because interviewing witnesses or subpoenaing documents might thrust the investigation into public view. exactly what fbi officials were trying to avoid during the heat of the presidential race. >> so, i think they learned from issues with comey and how the hillary clinton pronouncements were made and press conferences, and i think they went to extra pains to ensure that they would not impact the pending election. again, that reflects the professionalism and the degree of concern about showing -- becoming a player in the election, which is the worst thing the fbi can ever do. >> barbara mcquade, i can see in my monitor, i can see you're ready to jump in. go ahead. any part of this that you want to respond to? >> well, i think in some ways

trump himself, whether by accident or incredible insight, led the fbi down this path a little bit by constantly talking about how the election was rigged against him. any public pronouncement by the fbi that they were investigating the trump campaign, i think would have just given him more ammunition to say, look, it's rigged against me. so in some ways, whether that was a genius move or an accidental move, i think it caused the fbi to be extra cautious. but as frank said, no doubt this is the way it's supposed to be done. the goal is to avoid influencing the outcome of an election. the hillary clinton investigation was a little different because that was already publicly known because it came as an inspector general referral from the state department and so in that instance i think james comey felt he had the duty to let the world know that it was over. i don't know that he had the duty to let the world know it was back open, but he's explained himself on that count. but i think that president trump's comments about the rigged election and everyone's assumptions about the way this

election would come out may have played a role in some of the ways that things were done. >> nick, how does the president move forward from this moment? not that he's ever been slowed or cowed by facts, but how does he move forward in the wake of this reporting and make a case that the fbi under comey or mccabe was ever out to get him? this is clearly not the case. >> look, he moves forward in the same way he has throughout his presidency. he moves on. it doesn't really matter. i mean, look, to me, a really important thing in matt's story, it clarifies a seeming contradiction, which is why so public about the clinton investigation and so private about the trump investigation? and it turns out that the irony here, as you put it, is that because the same people were working on both cases, that in fact the first case informed the second one and they felt burned by that first one and they felt they brought the bureau and politics too much, and paradoxically made them

influence the election even more by staying out of the important questions on russia's influence, and down playing to our reporters what they were finding at the time or at least saying being very cautious in these findings. we haven't found a direct connection to russia yet. as for the president he'll go on saying what he says, it's a hoax, they're all against me, blah, blah, blah. >> let me give you the last word, matt. >> look, i think that is absolutely right. paradoxical is a good way to describe this. i think the bureau -- comey has said repeatedly we don't take politics into consideration. but the bureau did make a political calculation and that calculation was hillary clinton is going to win. donald trump is going to lose and we're going to be judged by how we handled the clinton case. and so we have to err on the side of disclosure. and donald trump is going to lose and he has generated this narrative of it's a rigged system, and we the bureau don't want to play into this idea that the united states election is rigged so we have to be secret. and in doing so, you know, they

have certainly locked themselves into the story of the 2016 election in a way the fbi has never wanted to be associated with a political outcome. >> matt apuzzo, congrats to you and your colleagues on the reporting. it's remarkable. when we come back, the former director of the cia, the man in charge of this investigation got underway, john brennan joins us after this. we're putting ai into everything, and everything into the cloud. it's all so... smart. but how do you work with it? ask this farmer. he's using satellite data to help increase crop yields. that's smart for the food we eat. at this port, supply chains are becoming more transparent with blockchain. that's smart for millions of shipments. in this lab, researchers are working with watson to help them find new treatments. that's smart for medicine. at this bank, the world's most encrypted mainframe is helping prevent cybercrime. that's smart for everyone. and in africa, iot sensors and the ibm cloud

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reporting on this. i'm looking forward to reading it this evening. >> good plug for "the new york times" subscription. let me read you part of what we thought might pertain to you and where you're mentioned. so, matt apuzzo and his colleagues have reported about the secrecy with which the early stages of the counter intelligence investigation were treated and they report that about you, the fbi's thinking crystallize nid august when the cia director at the time john brennan shared intelligence with mr. comey, showing that the russian government was behind an attack on the 2016 presidential election. intelligence agencies began collaborating to investigate that operation. the cross fire hurricane team was part of that group, but largely operated independently. did you know about the cross fire hurricane team at the fbi when you shared that intelligence with director comey? and is that an accurate description? >> well, i knew that the fbi had

investigation underway when i spoke with jim comey in late july. maybe it was the 31st of july or so, and the first few days of august when i talked about these matters. i knew they had an investigation underway. and i knew that both jim and myself and jim clapper, mike rogers at nsa, we wanted to make sure that we handled this matter appropriately, but also delicately because we were in the midst of a presidential campaign and it involved a very sensitive and ongoing counter intelligence investigation that involved potentially u.s. persons. and so there was a real effort to try to make sure we brought the expertise to bear, at the same time did not widen the circle of knowledge beyond what was absolutely necessary. >> did you know at the time that the fbi had gone over to interview an australian diplomat about his contacts with the former campaign aide george papadopoulos? >> i was aware of some of the activities that the fbi was

involved in. i'm not going to confirm or deny my knowledge of specific events, but jim comey and i stayed in touch and he shared with me some of the things that the fbi was doing, as i was keeping him well informed about what the cia was involved in. >> so, one of what the stories does, i believe for the first time, is reveal the contrast between how the hillary clinton investigation was dealt with publicly and how the counter intelligence investigation was dealt with so differently. so secretly. i know there's been a lot of reporting since you left your post about efforts that you all made to go to the hill to try to sound some alarms about russian meddling. but i wonder if you can take us through now with the benefit of some of this public reporting about just how dire your concerns were at the time that the fbi was investigating i believe four figures are named in this report. the president's future national security advisor had been in

contact with the russians. his campaign chairman had extensive contacts with putin-aligned russian oligarchs. the platform changed in cleveland. george papadopoulos had made contact with an australian diplomat who was so alarmed that the fbi sharing that alarm flew over to interview him. and carter page had a fisa surveillance application renewed so that we could listen to him as a country. what was your state of mind when all this was happening and it was being kept from the american people? is this the real cover up? >> well, we were deeply and gravely concerned about what the russians were involved in. as i said, this was in the middle of a hotly contested presidential campaign in the united states. the russians were engaged in a multi-faceted effort to try to influence and to undermine the integrity of that election. and so we wanted to make sure that we had as much visibility into it as possible. i was concerned because i could see some things, i learned

certain things, but i didn't know the full extent nor what the russians were planning to do in terms of trying to interfere in the election. so, it was in some respects a race against time to try to uncover and discover as much as we could. but at the same time, not compromise what i thought was probably the most sensitive counter intelligence investigation that i was ever involved in because it potentially involved individuals who, i have said wittingly or unwittingly, were working in support of russian objectives. it was really quite challenging to make sure that we did what we needed to do to uncover what they were doing, to deter and to thwart it, but at the same time not expose very sensitive and law enforcement matters that could have clouded our view in terms of what they were doing. so, this was challenging. >> so, one of the -- the two essential indictments of the u.s. government after 9/11 were that we had failed to connect the dots, that the cia wasn't

talking to the fbi, and, two, it was a failure ever imagination. can you imagine a parallel in the analysis to this? was the cia sharing everything with law enforcement? and did we fail to imagine that perhaps at the highest levels of the trump campaign there were russian agents? >> well, i was up on the hill this morning testifying along with jim clapper and former director of nsa mike rogers to the senate intelligence committee on russian interference in the election. first of all, i think the committee is doing a great job as far as their bipartisan effort to try to get to the bottom of what the russians were doing and try to prevent it in the future. but what i think about that time, i believe that we did everything that we could do to prevent what the russians were doing. it wasn't part of a cover up. we wanted to make sure that we confronted the russians which we did, both publicly and privately. that we were notifying the

congress dutyfully, which we did. talking to the american people and a statement that came out from jim clapper and jeh johnson in october basically was forthright in terms of saying the russians were trying to interfere. when i look back at that time, it was a challenging one. and i think that the fbi was sharing information with us, with cia, with nsa, but they had their own law enforcement investigation underway that i think was paralleling what the intelligence community was doing. i created a fusion cell at cia bringing in fbi and nsa agents and officers so that there would be this collective effort to try to make sure that none of these proverbial dots were not going to be connected. and having the best chance to do that. and i think the intelligence community assessments put out with stood the test of time in terms of what the russians were doing. but this was a exceptionally

delicate challenge that, again, we were trying to protect a sense and sorts of methods. we were trying to confront the russians, but i think that the agencies involved, specifically fbi, nsa and cia, nsa, fbi, did their best to try to ensure that the intelligence that they each had access to was going to be shared with the others. but i don't know what the fbi might have uncovered as far as u.s. person information, particularly those that were involved in the campaign. that was highly, highly sensitive. and i think the fbi was appropriately mindful of not sharing things beyond, again, the group that needed access to it to carry out this investigation and this assessment. >> my last question is about the care that you just detailed, that you and the professionals that worked where you took this alarming information that also was incredibly sensitive, the care that is detailed in this "the new york times" account, that the justice department and the fbi took, how do you feel

personally when donald trump compares the fbi to nazis, when he compares the intelligence community before he's sworn in to enemies, when he discredits and denigrates the product of either the law enforcement or the intelligence community? or the investigation currently being run into russian collusion, i would imagine that's a thread you think people should be thankful that a man like bob mueller has picked up and is determined to get to the bottom of. >> well, my thoughts, when i hear comments like that which are wholly unwarranted and despicable, my thoughts go to those brave fbi agents, cia officers and others who work around the clock to try to keep this country safe, that frequently put their lives on the line, take great risks to be able to carry out their duties. i also think about the families of those officers who have to sacrifice as their loved ones, their husbands or wives are doing this work. i think about the next generation of americans who want

to belong to the fbi or the cia or nsa and hear these comments from mr. trump. that's why i spend a lot of time convincing young americans that disregard those comments because these are noble professions. these are noble people. these are tremendous agencies that are not perfect, but they do their best day in and day out to keep americans safe. so, i think it's just very telling in terms of mr. trump's comments. not only does he malign very unfairly these institutions and the professionals within them, but just in keeping with what is a disease of dishonesty that afflicts him and me tatasticizs so many ways. that is hurting this country in many ways, reputationally and also in the national security realm. >> let me just ask you quickly, you talked about the president's

dishonesty. do you think that bob mueller has the president being dishonest about these very questions we're talking about, his contacts with russia or his efforts to shutdown an investigation into his contacts with russia? >> bob mueller is a national treasure and i have great confidence that -- to the extent that the truth can be uncovered here, bob mueller and his team of investigators will do it. and mr. trump and others, if they have things to fear, i think they are right to fear them because bob mueller will get to the bottom of it, whether it's obstruction of justice, whether it is conspiracy, whether it is money laundering

or whatever. those that transgress -- [ technical difficulty ] >> up next, new revelations about the trump tower meeting and a new report that shows bob mueller's collusion investigation doesn't appear anywhere close to wrapping up. i never thought i'd say this, but i found bladder leak

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>> he is the one that kick starts it all because the fbi finds out over this alcohol infused meeting with the australian diplomat he disclosed the information that he had

about what he had been told, that the russians had this information on hillary clinton in the form of e-mails. when the fbi find out about this, as my colleagues point out in the the piece they have on line today, that's when the investigation starts, at the end of july, just a month after they had closed the clinton e-mail investigation. from there, the fbi is in this difficult position of how do they handle this such politically sensitive investigation, what do they do? do they go forward with interviews? did they go forward with subpoenas? as the story points out very early on senior fbi leaders determined they were not going to be able to solve this question, solve this mystery by the time the election came around and they sort of looked at this issue you know up until election day. >> frank, we traded e-mails. more evidence that the collusion investigation, even though we don't hear as much about it is very much ongoing. >> alive and well. now we have a top campaign aide, former saying i recall papadopoulos talking about or

sending me an e-mail saying the russians have dirt on hillary before we even thought. why is that important? they will look for indexia of deception. he is talking about how people reacted after the e-mail, which is an indication of telling the truth. now we know that mueller is going to be doing every possible forensic technique on everything he sees to look for another form of communication, did an e-mail come in on a different platform, create the, texting, chat? it's prbl whether or notably there and mueller will fien night it remind me of how former nixon white house counsel john dean had a copious account but had nothing backing it up until the tapes were there and the transcripts were there, and having the backup because just one account isn't going to be enough. >> this is the piece that we are seeing. this is the meticulous work that robert mueller is doing on probably any number of things

that we don't know yet. you have to have the evidence there. and it shows that you can't move forward without that evidence. we don't know what else is coming but it's another example of this very detailed process. >> i thought we had a ban on the word "collusion" on this show. >> only when jeremy bash is here. the point is, we hear so much less about it, because there are fewer washington lawyers representing witnesses this the collusion investigation, to be honest. i don't know if anyone would disagree with that. but it is still the more sensitive line of inquiry for the president, who tweets every day, even if he is talking about trade, no collusion. >> i actually see a political strategy here at work. i think the president has been successful and his allies on the hill in defining collusion as something that can never actually be shown when in fact it's basically sitting right in front of us. while we are also looking at all the other things that are happening, paying off the porn stars he had affairs with, the real estate transactions there is so much here besides

collusion. >> we got to all of it. miketo sha hit thank you for joining us. we have to sneak in our lastbreak. we'll be right back. le if he'd taken tylenol, he'd be stopping for more pills right now. only aleve has the strength to stop tough pain for up to 12 hours with just one pill. tylenol can't do that. get all day minor arthritis pain relief with an easy-open cap. ♪ tired of wrestling with seemingly impossible cleaning tasks? using wipes in the kitchen, and sprays in the bathroom can be ineffective. try mr. clean magic eraser with durafoam. simply add water, and use in your kitchen for burnt on food, in your bathroom to remove soap scum, and on walls to remove scuffs and marks. it erases 4x more permanent marker per swipe. for tough kitchen and bath messes, use mr. clean magic eraser with durafoam. brand power. helping you buy better.

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are thanks to barbara mcquaid, frank, elise, kim, and nick. that does it for our hour. i'll nicolle wallace. "mtp daily" starts right now. hi chuck. >> you know, i'm here, but i don't feel like i'm here. >> we need like an overhead shot. >> we are say hi to each other in the same studio. you might think our back drops are different, but are they? >> we are in the same room. >> if it's wednesday it is a big long and busy day for russia revelati revelations. >> tonight, multiple breaking stories in the russia probe. new revelations about that trump tower heh meeting. new conclusions with russia's meddling and new disclosures about michael cohen payments. plus, what america thinks. >> witch-hunt to overturn an election.