and also make sure you check out all three episodes of our brand-new podcast, why is this happening, which is a special new project we've been working very hard on. we're proud of it. it features long-form, deep-dive conversations about the big themes and ideas driving this moment in history with really fascinating people. and don't forget to subscribe to that while you're there because here's the thing. on tuesday, we'll be dropping a brand-new podcast with my absolute favorite, favorite, favorite podcast guest in the entire world. that does it for all in. you can catch us every week night at 8:00 right here on msnbc. only in america. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington, or is it a good evening? yes another school shooting three months after the massacre

in pardon melankland, florida. this time it's in santa fe, texas. it's a common story as is the absence of action. intermittent gunfire across the country, political silence here in the capital. this time ten people are dead. 23450i nine students and a teacher. this time all hell broke loose before 7:30 a.m. local time. several witnesses say they heard a fire alarm go off. then shots rang out. >> nobody thought it was a shooting. everybody just thought it was a, you know, normal procedure, practice fire drill. and next thing you know, we just hear so many -- three gunshots, loud explosions, and all the teachers are telling us to run, run, go, run. i was scared for my life. nobody should go through this. nobody should be able to feel that in school. this is a place where we're supposed to feel safe. this is somewhere we come most of the week. nobody should have to go through this. nobody should feel that pain. >> we heard more shots and the

teachers screamed at us to run. so everyone started running, taking off. people were getting hit and everything. it's crazy. >> i've heard that like someone -- that a guy came in with a trench coat and like a duffel bag and he had a shotgun and started shooting people. i don't really know what else happened. >> officials said investigators also found explosive devices in the school and in surrounding campus areas. the suspected shooter is in custody. he's a 17-year-old who attended the school. he's being held without bond on capital murder charges and he's expected to make his first court appearance momentarily. texas governor greg abbott told reporters two types of weapons were used in the attack, a shotgun and a .38 revolver, both owned legally by the suspect's father. abbott also said that one or two people of interest are being investigated by authorities in connection with the shooting. >> we come together as we deal with one of the most heinous attacks that we've ever seen in the history of texas schools.

it's impossible to describe the magnitude of the evil of someone who would attack innocent children in a school. we need to do more than just pray for the victims and their families. it's time in texas that we take action to step up and make sure this tragedy is never repeated ever again in the history of the state of texas. >> for more i'm joined by representative joaquin castro of texas, shannon watts, founder of moms demanding action for gun sense. and greg pittman, a history teacher at marjory stoneman douglas high school in parkland. thank you all for coming here tonight. a grim night again. congressman, tell us what you know about this shooting by this 17-year-old down in texas? >> well, you know, that area is a small town, probably about 13,000 people on the edge of rural and suburban, and it's in

between houston and galveston. and a fairly conservative area but, you know, just like any other place in america, you have students who are finishing off the school year, maybe just finished up with prom, getting ready for graduation. and then they're confronted with this massacre and this tragedy today. >> do most people in that area -- can you generalize and say whether or not they own shotguns? if they have weapons in their homes? >> generally in texas, you know, there are a lot of folks that hunt for sport. a lot of people do own either shotguns or handguns. so, you know, i'm sure santa fe is just like that. >> what do you think should be done? maybe this is a bad question, but it's certainly in people's minds. if a kid grabs his father's shotgun and his .38 revolver and heads out to shoot people, should the father be held accountable for the fact he let the gun sit around the house? >> that is a tough question. i think we need gun owners to be much more responsible. i've agreed with some of the comments that were made by the texas leaders even though texas state officials have done very little to stem gun violence. i agree that parents need to be

more responsible in making sure that their guns are locked up and kept safe from their kids. >> the lieutenant governor is out there talking about his solution is to have one door rather than two doors to the school. is that it? is it the single door policy, that's going to deal with this issue? is that serious? >> i was really dumbfounded when i heard that comment by lieutenant governor dan patrick. >> let's listen to it here. let everybody judge for themselves if you think this is a serious response or not. >> this has been going on too long in our country. >> we're going to get back to that. let me go on to shannon. what action can we expect here? i mean fairly i don't expect any action. i think we live in this country. it's a gun tootin' country. we believe in the second amendment as part of the constitution. we live with it the way it's been interpreted by the supreme court i think is irresponsible, but here we are. >> you know, we have seen significant change on the ground

even just since parkland. we've seen republican governors sign sweeping gun reform into law. so we are seeing movement state by state. red flag laws being passed, laws that disarm domestic abusers, states continuing to close the background check loophole. there have been 20 mass shootings in the state of texas since 2009, and all we've seen is greg abbott make it easier for dangerous people to get guns. i know everyone wants a cathartic moment in congress but it is on us in november to elect lawmakers that will vote the right way on this issue and that will act. >> all i hear is calls for open carry in saloons and restaurants. people want to walk through the malls with guns, toting guns openly. it always seems to be going in that direction. more guns in more places more openly. >> well, you know, we have something no other developed nation is which is the gun lobby. and nra lobbyists are always fighting for guns for anyone,

anywhere, anytime, no questions asked that. that's how they continue to sell more guns. there's a $100 million loss in gun sales since donald trump was elected. and the nra is trying to figure out how to make up for that loss in sales. part of it is to do things like arming teachers. if they arm just a fraction of america's 3.6 million teachers, they could easily recoup that loss and get ready to hear those talking points tomorrow morning. >> let's see what the lieutenant governor of texas, when this happened today, had to say. his name is dan patrick. he's a fierce gun control opponent. he offered his own solution to reduce gun violence in schools today. >> maybe we need to look at limiting the entrance and the exits into our schools so that we can have law enforcement looking at the people who come in one or two entrances. we're going to have to be creative. we're going to have to think out of the box because from what we know, this dude walked in today with a long coat and a shotgun under his coat. it's 90 degrees.

had there been one single entrance possibly for every student, maybe he would have been stopped. >> well, let me go to greg pittman because you've been through this before, sir, as a teacher at a school that was hit hard by gun violence. what do you think of politicians who openly say their entire philosophy is answered in fewer doors? and somehow, seriously, the guy shows up, you know, dressed like he's in the movie "the matrix" with a long coat on. you think they would have noticed that behavior before and not have a law about it, but common sense would have told them this is a troubled kid out to make a point. what do you make of a politician, lieutenant governor of a state who's entire response to this is fewer doors? >> again, i think, chris, one of the things here with that, that certainly might help in one way. but we go back to the problem of the question of the guns, back to the question you all raised earlier. here we have a 17-year-old that was able to obtain the father's guns. why did the father not have them

locked up? again, there is some responsibility borne by both the father, the mother, the parents here with this kid being able to access guns. one of the big problems in our society is no one ever is responsible anymore. our politicians aren't responsible. they're not responsible to the people. the parents here aren't responsible. somebody needs to be responsible for some of the actions and just the idea of limiting the doors, that certainly may help. i know at douglas, we've tried to limit -- they've tried to reduce the access points so they can better watch the students as they come in. they've gone to these clear bags. they've gone to these other things. again, if they really want to get a gun in, you can still get a gun in. that's not going to stop it, not unless they search every single kid with everything they bring in. it goes back to the access, to being able to obtain the guns to begin were. it goes to raising the age, i think, to be able to obtain guns. how do these 17-year-olds -- so many of these shooters -- the shooter at our school was 19,

who was able to legally buy the gun at that time. florida has raised the age to 21. many of these states need to raise the age to 21 or perhaps older. very easy to get guns. we need to extend background checks, which wouldn't have prevented this. but, again, back to some responsibility of the parents or someone on controlling the guns. whose fault is this supposed to be? it can't be no one's fault. someone has to be responsible for this, and i don't understand why the parents aren't ever responsible anymore. that's one thing that we see at schools now. no one is responsible for anything. the only ones that are ever responsible are the teachers. the teachers are being asked to do everything. we can't. >> governor abbott of texas also said he planned to hold roundtables around the state to discuss how to prevent further shootings in texas. here's the governor of the state. >> we will assembly all stakeholders to begin to work immediately on swift solutions to prevent tragedies like this from ever happening again. we want to hear from parents.

we want to hear from students. we want to hear from educators. we want to hear from concerned citizens. we want to hear from those who hold the second amendment right in high esteem. we want to hear from everybody who has an interest in what has happened today so we can work together. >> i'm sorry, congressman. it makes me convinced that politics is an acting profession. that was an act. let me ask you this. everywhere in the world, this are countries that have violence, of course, but they don't have school shootings. we seem to have a lot of them. every couple months, it happened and every couple months somebody like the governor says we're going to have roundtables and talk about it and the pro gun people say do nothing, and we go back and think about something else the next two days. >> i mean, chris, it is a shame that the united states congress has not done anything, anything to protect our students from gun violence. >> what's the nra say? do you feel their prevalence in

your life? >> certainly in texas. >> if you vote for any gun safety, you know they're coming at you, right? >> sure. i've stood at polls and asked for people's support, and they've said before they're not going to support me because the nra said she shouldn't because they've got a list of approved candidates. but greg abbott there was basically lip syncing, that man has stood by while tragedy after tragedy has happened in and has hurt texans and he's done nothing. when they have those roundtables, i have the first suggestion for them. he should allow, under texas law, local governments to take action into their own hands. right now texas state law doesn't allow any local government to do anything about gun violence, to make their own laws regarding any of this. he should free up local governments to do that, especially if they're going to sit on their hands and do nothing. >> shannon, when looking at the people here, the parents apparently recover. well, they're not going to recover from this violence because it's a hell on earth situation. but what do you think is about america that has this headline now around the world -- i mean if you're in tokyo right now where they don't have this, or

london where they really don't have this, or paris or anywhere in the world, south africa, they don't have this kind of stuff. you go, what's with america? what's with us? do we have that many angry kids that are 17 years old, angry at the kids in class who don't treat them right and go out and start shooting a bunch of them? what combination of facts do we have that nobody else seems to have? >> every nation is home to disgruntled teens, to bullied teens. what we have that is different is easy access to guns in this country. if more guns and fewer gun laws made us safer, we'd be the safest country in the world. instead we have the high ef rate of gun violence of any developed nation. 96 americans are shot in this country every day, and we talk about it when ten people are killed at a time. but the reality is there's gun violence in communities all day long that isn't being addressed or seen or even reported on the news, and these families are suffering. it is on our lawmakers to account a. they could stop this.

we know that in states with strong gun laws, they have much fewer gun deaths. and yet these lawmakers are sitting on their hands. >> we're watching now the suspect being brought into court for the first time. this is the 17-year-old who is suspected of committing this horrible crime today in texas, santa fe. here he comes. let's watch. >> can we slide him over? >> to his left.

>> we're watching the suspect in the school shooting down in santa fe, texas, today, where ten people were killed and ten others injured. some of them also victims of shotgun violence. he's being brought in for the first time right now to face the court, to face a judge. this of course the first step in any kind of judicial proceeding. he's being brought before the system basically. it's strange now he's standing behind that partition in the doorway there, but let's listen to this. >> my name is judge henry. you have been charged with capital murder, and you have been charged with aggravated assault against a public servant. i'm denying your bond on both charges. you have the right to obtain counsel. you have the right to remain silent. you have the right to have an attorney present. you have the right to terminate that interview at any time. you have the right to request appointment of counsel if you're indigent and cannot afford one. you are not required to make a statement. any statement made by you may be used against you. are you a citizen of the united

states? are you a citizen of the united states? >> yes, sir. >> are you requesting consideration for a court-appointed attorney? >> yes. >> are you out on bond for any other charge? i'm going to ask you to sign the front page, which is just acknowledging that i read you your rights this afternoon. you're not entering a plea today. i'm going to have you sign a second time, requesting consideration to be appointed a court-appointed attorney, and a third time saying that you're keep your appointments and tell us if you change your address or phone number. one more time right here, please, say you're requesting that court-appointed attorney.

>> the next window. >> oh, the next window? do i need to do it over again? all right. do you have any questions? all right. we are finished. they're going to work on that application a little bit later. >> congressman, do you expect -- well, you're a texan. i mean it's not -- texas isn't responsible for this obviously. one person is. perhaps the situation he faced at home had some role in it, having access to the gun. texans aren't going to change, are they, or anybody in this country. it sounds like we're going to be

back here in a couple months with another one of these. >> i think things are changing. i think they're changing too slowly. but i think the public sentiment is changing in texas also. unfortunately the politicians have not changed with the sentiment. >> nra still calls the shots? >> they still have a lot of sway, but i think that's waning also. >> greg, what were the reactions today of your students in parkland who have been through this hell before up front? >> again today, this afternoon, i was with my fourth period, which is a class that i was with the day of the shooting at douglas on february 14th. and all the kids were very upset about it. they wanted to watch. they wanted to see what was going on. some were very quiet, but they were very interested but also upset, and it was bringing back, you know, some of the same feelings we went through. the fire alarm goes off. everybody starts going out. starts the same kind of things we did that same day. and then it's so similar as to what we experienced. and so again, kids were upset by

it very much. the other thing i'll just throw out, not only that, but before this, our kids -- our teachers, our school is suffering from ptsd. even the people that weren't in the building directly where the students were shot and teachers and others were killed. it has been a very slow process to get to where we are right now. we are definitely not healed. the school is not normal. we've got this -- we joke about it or call it this new normal, which is nowhere near what we used to be. it's very difficult. three months out and then obviously this just kind of brings it all back to life again for us. and i can only sympathize with the community there on what they're going to be experiencing because i understand what it's like, and it's going to be a long, difficult road, and they're going to need a lot of support. so certainly i'm sure we'll try to help support, but they'll need support from all around the country because it's not an easy -- easy thing to deal with. then you go back. i mean it's not like many other places that you're at some other

random place. this is where the kids go to school. this is where we go to work. we don't use that one building at school. we'll go to the school. i mean we've got three more years of kids before they graduate and the teachers obviously will still be there. >> i'm so proud of the fact that your students have spoken out and i hope they keep speaking out because the one thing the gun lobby has going for it all these years is they're obsessed. i think the people who want gun safety have to be equally obsessed and that means relentless. it seems to be true with your students. thank you, joaquin castro. by the way, you were going to come on anyway, but thank you for coming on despite this. shannon watts, keep up the wonderful work. you're a wonderful spokesperson. we need you. we really do. and greg pittman, again, sir, teachers are great. coming up next, the other big story of the day, president trump and his allies are attacking the very investigation of russian election meddling and coordination with moscow by the trump campaign.

they didn't like being investigated. trum says it was wrong for the fbi to investigate his campaign, wrong for it to be looking for etch evidence of criminal activity. they're attacking the investigators now, worried about the outcome of evidence. plus trump tube adore rudy giuliani tooting the same horn says the investigation should end and that trump deserves an apology. thanks to videotape, we're going to show you something tonight he said during the clinton impeachment he doesn't want you to remember. back then he said no president is above the law. what changed? meanwhile trump is uniting the right to defend him. he won't apologize for mocking john mccain. he's going after planned parenthood. he's standing up against the nra -- or with the nra on the gun issue. finally let me finish with trump watch. you're watching it. it's "hardball," where the action is. i'm richard louie with your hour's stop stories. students and staff returned to santa fe high school to pick up

belongings just one day after the shooting that left ten dead and 13 injured. texas governor greg abbott is set to hold discussions on school safety in the coming days. "the new york times" reports donald trump jr. was involved in a 2016 meeting with an emissary for two gulf country princes who offered to help then candidate trump win the election. back to "hardball" after a short break. in an unreasonably narrow fast food drive thru lane. but what a powerful life lesson. and don't worry i have everything handled. i already spoke to our allstate agent, and i know that we have accident forgiveness. which is so smart on your guy's part. like fact that they'll just... forgive you... four weeks without the car. okay, yup. good night. with accident forgiveness your rates won't go up just because of an accident. switching to allstate is worth it.

. welcome back to "hardball." president trump is indicating today that he's willing to go to extreme new lengths to discredit the russia probe. in his quest to change the question from how he was involved, president trump appears to be willing to sacrifice the identity of a covert fbi informant who reportedly insiassisted in the investigation of the trump campaign. in a tweet today, the fbi alleged. there was indeed at least one fbi representative implanted for political purposes into my campaign for president.

it took place very early on and long before the phony russia hoax became a hot fake news story. if true, all time biggest political scandal. unbelievable. according to "the washington post," the informant in question is a u.s. citizen who has provided information over the years to both the fbi and cia and aided the russia investigation both before and after mueller's appointment. "the washington post" reports that the president has joined with his allies on capitol hill in a fight against the justice department and intelligence agencies whose leaders warn that publicly identifying the confidential source in this case would put lives in danger and imperil other operations. trump attorney rudy giuliani also seized on the development to slam the mueller investigation. >> this goes back 100 days before the election. they had spies in the trump camp. i'm trying to figure out, you know, who was sitting next to me on the airplane. this is a far worse crime and intrusion on democracy than a non-russian conspiracy.

and who's investigating it? i hope that this is turned over for criminal referral, and i hope for once the justice department wakes up and investigates something other than, you know, empowering mueller to do an illegitimate investigation. it is illegitimate. >> despite their faux outrage, it's not clear how it was in any way wrong for the fbi to use an informant to get evidence of a crime or how blowing the cover of that informant would exonerate the president from allegations of collusion or obstruction of justice. i'm joined by the co-author of that report, phil rucker, also an msnbc contributor, malcolm nance is an msnbc national security intelligent analyst, and shannon pettypiece, a correspondent for bloomberg. phil, you've got the reporting. everybody knows when you go to court in a criminal situation, the defendant, to get off, which every defendant wants to, comes up with some theory, some wacky notion, well, somebody told me to steal the car. i didn't know i was stealing the

car. somebody told me to take it, some guy named joe. you got to come up with something. that's what rudy sounds like. a public defender defending a hopeless case. he calls informants spies in order to create some sort of alternative reality. your thoughts? you're reporting this thing. >> well, there's a clear effort here by president trump on down, including his allies and including importantly attorney rudy giuliani to discredit the mueller probe by pointing to the origins of it, to try to say that this was somehow improperly started because of an informant who was passing along intelligence from inside of the campaign to help the fbi's russia investigation. they feel like that's wrongdoing. as trump has said, a scandal bigger than watergate. they feel like if more information can become public about the beginning period of this fbi probe, if the documents that congressman devin nunes is requesting from the justice department are made public, that

that will give them sort of evidence or cause to move against the mueller probe. at this point it seems more like a public relations offensive than anything that has any legal bearing. >> i agree. >> but we'll have to say. >> malcolm, i think this is faux. this outrage is faux. they know they're caught. they're about to be really nailed so they're coming up with all this bogus stuff about spies. even the use of the word spies, brilliant because it gets in people's heads, wrongdoing, bad guys. >> it goes right back to their belief that president obama actually wiretapped trump towers. i mean this is fantasy baseball, but it's going out to a very select audience. and he wants them to believe this. i mean, you know, the only equivalent that i can give you here, it's like the head of the gambino crime family complaining that there are witnesses from within his camp against him in a trial. i mean there's nothing they can do here. but what they can do, which is very dangerous, is it's quite possible they could informally

get this person's name and then out them and discredit the fbi's ability to have confidential informants. >> my question is what's wrong with an informant, shannon? we found out the cigarette industry was putting all that nicotine in their products because we had an insider. russell crowe played him in the movies. what is wrong with finding out what's going on on the inside of the trump campaign if that's what you're investigating? >> there isn't necessarily anything wrong with it. ip mean there's an enormous amount we don't know about this case, the origins of it, who the informant is. but if someone either voluntarily came to the fbi or it was someone who the fbi had been working with on a number of matters and brought them information, there is nothing wrong with that. that is how investigations go. but there is a lot we don't know about how this all came about. so there could be things we found out later in the process. >> if you end up finding out evidence he colluded with the russians, does it matter that you used an informant to find that out? the important thing is do you find evidence that shows collusion or not? >> and did you have grounds to seek that information or to

obtain that information, of course, because we have a justice system where you can't just wiretap anyone. you have to get a warrant. but it does, to maldcolm's poin, it is very reminiscent of this wiretapping argument. there are many people who asked why are your wires being tapped? why is an informant talking to the fbi? what is going on there? >> in his testimony two days ago, fbi director christopher wray warned that the identities of covert intelligence sources must be protected in the interest of national security. >> human sources in particular who put themselves at great risk to work with us and with our foreign partners have to be able to trust that we're going to protect their identities and in many cases their lives and the lives of their families. and the day that we can't protect human sources is the day the american people start becoming less safe. >> malcolm, do you think they're

ready to push the guy into the public light and expose this person who may be very endangered because of this political play by the trump people? >> well, in my career, we've already lived through that happening with the exposure of valerie plame. and that outing destroyed an entire global intelligence collection network. i think that this administration is definitely political enough to go out there and expose a confidential informant if it would help their case to damage the fbi. >> according to "the washington post," trump is strategizing with his allies on capitol hill. quote, congressman mark meadows has been conferring with trump and three or more calls a week communicating concerns of the justice department is hiding worrisome information about the elements of the probe. one former administration official told the post, he sees allies in congress as more credible surrogates than his own staff. phil, it seems like they've got

a lot of efforts out there to distract away from the upcoming delivery of evidence by robert mueller, that they seem to be saying -- rudy is out there attracting attention over to stormy daniels and that case. the whole stormy daniels case itself is distracting attention. now they're trying to undermine. it seems like they've got a lot of -- is this coordinated? all these efforts to undermine mueller? >> absolutely, chris. this is a clear strategic shift for president trump and his legal team in the last month or so since rudy giuliani's come onboard. he's on the offense. they're trying to sort of muddy the waters to discredit this mueller probe as it reached its one-year anniversary yesterday, to take down the public confidence in the russia investigation so that when they get to the point where president trump wants to call for it to end, he's entertained he's threatened to fire mueller or rod rosenstein, the deputy attorney general who oversees it. if something like that were to

happen, there would be less public sort of trust in the operation. this is a very clear coordinated public campaign to really discredit robert mueller as he's continuing his work in the investigation. >> shannon, do you see that too as a reporter? do you see this multi-faceted effort to undermine? >> yes. my reporting is completely in line with phil's. you talk to people who are the president's allies, his surrogates. they are absolutely trying to undercut the legitimacy of this investigation. so regardless of what is found, a large section of the public will not believe or will have big doubts about it because this will likely not end up, if there is anything here, as a legal court battle. it will end up as an impeachment if anything is found. in an impeachment proceeding, now you get into the court of public opinion and that's where these things sort of matter. >> thank you. coming up, trump's troubadour, rudy giuliani, is back at it saying it does rnlt matter if a county gets

oppositi opposition research from a foreign source. rudy says trump is owed an apology for this investigation. he is really -- what is he up to? this is "hardball," where the action is. money right into the harbor. i'm gonna regret that. with new car replacement, if your brand new car gets totaled, liberty mutual will pay the entire value plus depreciation. liberty stands with you. liberty mutual insurance. fthere's flonase sensimist.tchy and watery near pollen. it relieves all your worst symptoms

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yeah, my dad says our insurance doesn't have that. what?! you can leave worry behind when liberty stands with you™. liberty mutual insurance. violence violent viole welcome back to "hardball." it's been a month now since donald trump hired rudy giuliani as his personal lawyer and troubadour if you will. since then, giuliani has embarked on a sustained media campaign to defuse and divert attention from the facts of robert mueller's investigation which has secured so far five guilty pleas and 19 indictments. giuliani is now calling for an end to the investigation on his own word and an apology. he wants an apology to the president. let's watch. >> the whole investigation is totally illegitimate. how about what jeff sessions has done to him? >> what has he done to him? >> what jeff sessions has done to him is stick him with a special counsel because he didn't step up. wrong answer now i think needs

you can't indict. >> you said it should be wrapped up. do you believe it should be wrapped up overall or just as it pertains in any way to president trump? >> i think it should be wrapped up completely. i think in fact, they should apologize to him for putting him through this. >> modern-day giuliani stands in stark contrast of course to a decidedly more muted version of the former mayor of new york who appeared on pbs during the 1998 starr investigation. >> i think under the criminal law, everybody should be treated the same. >> and lying is -- >> i know there are people that would say the president should be treated stricter, but i think the right answer is the president should be treated -- as far the criminal law is concerned, the president's a citizen. the watergate litigation resolved the fact that the president is not above the law. >> for more i'm joined by ashley parker, white house reporter for "the washington post" and an msnbc political analyst. and susan del percio, a republican strategist. susan, i know this puts you in something of a box, but i enjoy doing that.

my question, i've always sort of found -- what's the right word -- familiarity of rudy giuliani. i've considered him i know from growing up. big city kid. i know him. i don't dislike him in any personal way. i just wonder why he's changed to the guy who's willing to say outrageous things like you can't indict. you have to apologize to somebody. you can't have an informant. i mean all these rules are gone in terms of defending his current client. >> they are gone. and, chris, i'm so happy you showed that earlier video of rudy in 1998 because that's the giuliani i worked for. that's the administration i worked for. and that was someone who led our city through one of the darkest times. i have no idea why he's willing to sacrifice that legacy, if you will, for one of being the head p.r. guy to discredit the justice department. the only thing is i think he's back in campaign mode. he liked the 2016 campaign.

he liked being there with donald trump. he liked being on the attack. >> is it the action? >> it's the action. it's the relevancy, and he's doing this again for donald trump. it's really an extension of the campaign. let's face it. in 2016, all donald trump did is discredit other people and his opponents. and that's what rudy giuliani is trying to do right now, which is a shame. >> you know, ashley, i know you're a straight reporter, but i'm going to throw this one at you now. the question of rudy, why he changed. i always bragged on rudy in the old days during 9/11 because i said he did something we also treasure in a politician. he didn't engage in rolling disclosure. he would say, well, we've got a couple cases of anthrax right now and we're looking at it. he would give us the information as he had just been handed that. we love that in a politician. tell us what you know now. don't wait three weeks from now when we find it out and you agree we found it out, which is called rolling disclosure. what do you sense when you talk to rudy? what do you think he's like now as an informant? >> in this moment, giuliani is

playing a role. he is playing the role of what president trump has demanded, which is that of a tv lawyer. so when you see him, it's interesting to watch this probe and this defense go on because you have mueller and his team who are building a legal defense, and you have giuliani who has made a choice -- and people can wonder as you did why he made this choice -- but to basically be the aggressive p.r. apparatus for president trump's legal team. and so the choices he's making are not the choices he would make or the things he would say as a federal prosecutor or as america's mayor, but they are the things you say when you are prosecuting a case in the court of public opinion, more so than even building a legal case behind the scenes. >> how are they cooking this up together? have you been able to figure out at the post? are they on the phone together? are they conniving together? are they like the menendez brothers, if you will, on these phones that are taped together? somehow they find a way to connect without anybody knowing it? how do they do it, ashley? >> they're spending a lot of

time together. giuliani, for instance, we know the other weekend he and president trump spent about five hours at the president's golf course in virginia. they talked about the case. they talked about the strategy. giuliani told us at the post that they even tried to eat healthy together. he had a cobb salad. the president had a hamburger but without the bun. >> that lasted ten minutes. i don't think i've seen the evidence of that. anyway, susan del percio, is this the really rudy or was the old guy the real guy? >> i think the old one was. that's the rudy i know, and that's the rudy i wish i was seeing right now. >> thank you, ashley parker. great reporting. susan del percio. we have to talk about rudy sometime. coming up, trump is uniting the right on all fronts. don't you notice he won't apologize about that knock at john mccain. he's taking on planned parenthood. you can bet he's not going to do anything about guns as long as the nra is part of his camp. this is "hardball," where the action is. what might seem like a small cough to you...

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welcome back to "hardball." facing a growing threat from mueller's investigation, president trump has been focused on uniting his right wing base on multiple fronts. this week alone his white house refused to make apologize for that communication aide kelly sadler's comments that john mccain's vote doesn't matter since he's, quote, dying anyway. he opened up the u.s. embassy in jerusalem. his administration stood by its policy of separating children from their parents if their parents enter the country illegally and floated the idea of housing those children at military bases and the trump administration announced a proposal today that would ban organizations like planned parenthood from receiving federal funding for health services if they also perform abortions in the same facility. let's bring in tonight's "hardball" roundtable. ruth marcus, eli stokols, and jonathan capehart.

let me ask you about this circling the wagon because it just seems like on all fronts, i'm not going to compare it to a certain german leader once, but at one time hold the line on the eastern front at all costs. he's doing that. he doesn't give an inch now on anything. >> he doesn't give an inch, but i don't think it's actually out of weakness. i think it's out of strength. he's doing exactly what he said he was going to do. i'm not advocating these positions. he's doing exactly what he wants, not out of the need to kowtow to his base, but because his base is loving it, and he is -- >> okay, eli, i'm going to try you on this. how come after the shooting at parkland high school, down there in parkland, florida, he did budge. he budged in that meeting we all watched in the candidate room. he talked about, you know, all kinds of background checks and all this stuff, and he talked about -- let's take a look at it because that's who he was. let's take a look. >> i'd rather have you come up

with a strong, strong bill and really strong on background checks. we're talking about rules and regulations for purchasing. we're talking about changing an age from 18 to 21. these other weapons that we talk about that some people don't like, they're allowed to buy them at 18, so how does that make sense? take the guns first. go through due process second. >> there he is like marshall earp, and a couple of days later, he hears from the nra. >> there's this zig and zag we've become accustomed to. it's rife with self-characteristiself self-contradictions. he only lives in that one moment, that one interview, that one cabinet meeting and he's trying to win the room. he's trying to say what he thinks is the right thing in that moment. ultimately we know he's not going to advocate for gun control, and he didn't. and this is what he does. and he realizes over time that there are no consequences really for saying one thing in one

context, saying the opposite thing hours later, sometimes minutes later because, yeah, we can play the clips and show him contradicting himself. but the poll numbers don't budge. >> why don't they budge, jonathan? they go up a little bit. >> they go up a little bit, but they don't budge because that 43% according to gal up nlup no those are the people who have been with him from the very beginning. >> there's probably more by the way that don't say it. >> sure, there's probably more. but i think eli hit on the key thing. he has never suffered any consequences for what he's done. josh green wrote in his book on bannon and trump that trump learned the lesson through the birther situation. he said all of these horrible things about the sitting president of the united states, denying his legitimacy, and no one within the republican establishment, no one on capitol hill, no one within the republican party firmament took him to task for it.

he has a quote from reince priebus saying that's his opinion. no big deal. the lesson trump learned from that was i can be as outrainous as i want, and no one is going to hold me accountable. and that is what's and then all his people steven miller and all these other folks grab him and pull him back to where he wants him. he said on television, i want a bill of love to protect the daca kids and then killed. >> you are watching "hardball" (vo) what if this didn't have to happen? i didn't see it. (vo) what if we could go back? what if our car... could stop itself? in iihs front-end crash prevention testing, nobody beats the subaru impreza. not toyota. not honda. not ford.

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>> that was my "hardball" my interview with president trump when he was a campaigner and stirred up controversy and did say he would punish women who had abortions. now he is out there again today punishing planned parenthood even if the money doesn't go to abortion services. some money does and he wants to shut them down. >> that was a telling interview in the campaign. he had to think about the subject. >> i don't think he penetrated that issue. >> that was an interesting moment that the official base, said no no no no no that is not our position. we don't mean that at all. here he is doing a form of what ronald raegon did years ago and

trying to go after planned parenthood. the tragedy is, of course few go after planned parenthood and deny their funding or make them set up different facilities, fewer women get birth control and more get pregnant and more have abortions. >> webster and casey, you can't have an undo burden. >> going back to what we were talking b. that is trump vamping and trying to answer the question and in the context for what is my right answer for the base. he hasn't thought about thee things deeply. this is a prosecute getting ready for a nuclear summit with north korea and the capacity to absorb information and process what is in the briefing materials and think deeply about

all things that comes across the president's desk? >> and the other thing with what ruth was saying. if you close down planned parenthood clinics, you are not just stopping abortions. a lot of times that is the only place people can get healthcare period. >> yes. especially poor people. >> what a round table and when we return, we're going to finish with trump. you're watching "hardball." -♪ he's got legs of lumber and arms of steel ♪

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. trump watch friday may 18th, 2018. i know how president trump will react to the latest school shooting. he will act politically and will do nothing. trump is in a bunker now and needs his coalition to stand hard. can't stand the slightest weakness. it is the trump right or wrong crowd. he needs the people who don't ask questions. the more robert mueller tightens the web of truth, the more trump drills his troop. watch him this week on whether a white house staffer should apologize about mccain, not an inch. on gun safety, not an inch. even the governor of florida was willing to raise the age to 21.

not trump. not an inch. lead by a president concerned with his political survival, he dare not consider the survival of our youth. >> thank you for joirning us. happy to have you here this friday night. the mass shooting today at a texas high school about 35 miles from houston claimed 10 lives and 10 injured. 17-year-old suspect in mass murder in custody. used two guns in the killings. a 38-caliber resolver and reportedly a shotgun. we have mixed reports in conjunction with the murders. we don't have clarity