"cry" i can't see the tears coming down my eye. so i had to make the song cry. to what we have now with this fully formed entrepreneur, father, he would say sinner on 444. >> actually letting tears fall. >> real men cry. that's our show. "hardball" starts now. more collusion. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews up in new york. an explosive new report on the special counsel's probe is revealed a mysterious additional lead in the investigation of potential collusion. "the new york times" is now reporting that donald trump jr. and other trump officials met in addition to the russians also with an emissary to two gulf arab countries and an israeli

businessman to discuss how they could help his father win the 2016 election. as "the times" notes, its first indication countries other than russia may have offered assistance to the trump campaign. "the times" reports, quote, investigators have questioned numerous witnesses about what foreign help may have been pledged or accepted and about whether any such assistance was coordinated with russia. the meeting in question which took place in trower in august 3rd of 2016 was arranged by erik prince, a private security contractor and informal trump adviser. prince introduced donald trump jr. and aide stephen missiler to george nader, adviser to the saudi arabia. nader is now cooperating with investigators. wow. also in the meeting was an israeli social media specialist joel zimmel who proposed his services to help the trump campai campaign. this air legal conducted by the russians in the 2016 presidential election. as "the times" reports, the plan

involved using thousands of fake social media accounts to promote mr. trump's candidacy on platforms like facebook. it's unclear what kind of help if any was ultimately provided. however, two people familiar with the meeting say the trump campaign official did not appear bothered by the idea of cooperation with foreigners. an attorney to mr. zamel denied his client was involved in the election. donald trump jr.'s lawyers released a statement saying they pitched mr. trump jr. on a marketing strategy. he was not interested and that was the end of it. i'm joined by betsy woodruff, report were the daily beast and msnbc analyst. jennifer rubin, msnbc contributor, and jill ainsley, a national report were nbc news. thank you, all. let's start with betsy. tell what's we know about this additional information about trump's gathering or seeking or accepting or listening to advice from other countries about how to beat hillary clinton. >> look, this might be the closest piece of evidence yet to the possibility of there having been some sort of illegal activity involving the trump

campaign and people working for foreign governments. the federal election campaign law, the statute that governs all campaigns in the united states makes it really clear that it is against the law to solicit help from foreign nationals on a campaign. i spoke with a campaign attorney earlier today who said that would also include soliciting help from foreign nationals through their emissaries, even if the emissaries themselves are u.s. citizens. so depending on what happened in that conversation, there could have been illegal activity. >> well, george nader jumps to mind as the guy who was also involved in that meeting in the seychelles. what is his role? he is one of these mystery guys that is sort of moving in and out, not sure what country they really are loyal to. you're shaking your head, jennifer. these sort of transnational figures that seem to always be available for a hustle or something on the edge of the illegality here. >> you really don't know who he is working for. is he working in this capacity just for this israeli company? does he have some connection to the russians? it seems awfully coincidental that he should also appear in

the seychelles. but consider what this meeting means. just like that meeting in trump tower, which was in june a few months earlier, you have don jr., you have a senior member of the campaign, this case apparently stephen miller, the other incidents it was not only paul manafort, but the president's son-in-law, sitting down with people who represent a foreign government, eagerly waiting to be told something that will help their candidate, in this case donald trump, because president of the united states. frankly, i think donald trump jr. for exactly the reason that betsy outlined is probably also stepped over the line, already stepped over the line in the russia meeting because there he was eager to get the information. he started all by asking at the beginning of the meeting what do you got? that's sort of solicitation, don't you think? so this not only makes clear that is there a pattern of doing, this but it may be some of the same characters who are involved in much of this. . >> right. >> these people do get recycled. >> as i mentioned and you just

did, erik prince and george nader are known for holding a secret meeting in january of 2017 with an oligarch in the seychelles, a remote island nation in the middle of the indian ocean. the purpose was to establish a back channel between the incoming trump administration and the kremlin itself. however, in his testimony before the house intelligence committee, prince omitted several facts about how that meeting came about. now it also appears prince failed to disclose his august meeting in trower to the committee as well involving the emirates and this israeli guy. in that testimony, prince described having only limited contact with trump campaign officials. when asked to confirm that he had no other our contact, he said correct. the only contact he had with donald trump jr. was at a campaign event, and he ran into him a couple of times during the transition. that does not appear to be accurate in light of what we're now learning. julia, this reminds me, every time we have one of these meetings, it's talking new business. oh, we've got some new clients

possibly here. ringing the belfiore new business. they seem to be having an open window or door even for anybody coming from some other country that might help them pull an upset against hillary, because it look liked an upset coming then if it was going to be a win. >> that's right. and if we think back to this time and an excuse that we heard a lot is these are political novices. that's something people loved about trump as a candidate. he was a business guy. he wanted to talk to everybody, and he didn't understand all these very kind of in the weeds federal election campaign rules that would have kept him from meeting with these people. but from our reporting all the way back in december, chris, we were told that the trump campaign was actually briefed and warned, that trump himself was briefed and warned about outside countries trying to intervene in his campaign, russia and others. so when you have that information that you're given as soon as you get the nomination, why then would your son and other people close to your campaign be soliciting this kind of advice from foreign

countries? we don't know how far it went, if it was a list of options, what they decided to solicit, where it ended, but it is clear that they had this meeting. they looked like they were very much open to the idea, much in the same way that they were meeting with other people like the russians in june of 2016, that this was somewhat of a commonplace. and that obviously as betsy points out is against u.s. law. so they can't plead ignorance in this case because as we pointed out, they were warned that other countries would be trying to do this very thing. >> who gave it and was it before or after they had already been meeting in june with the trump tower crowd? >> i was thinking about this. this would have been after the nomination. and we know that the nomination was in july. technically the trump tower fees they could plead ignorance on that. but not in this case, an august meeting. we understand this would have come from the fbi, from people in the counter intelligence community who would say look, we

understand from our intelligence that there are efforts to get inside your election, and you need to be mindful of these. this is right around the time paul manafort quit. >> go ahead, jennifer. >> in this case, ignorance of the law is not an excuse. all you have to have for a violation of the campaign law is that you knowingly met with someone who is a foreigner and solicited or received help. that donald trump jr. definitely did. and he may be ignorant. he may be foolish, but he may also be a lawbreaker. and that's the problem i think the trump team is looking at. it's no wonder that donald trump has been blowing up and going nuts over this. this is the collusion. and we have not just one instance in june in trump tower with the russians, but two more countries. how many more countries are we going to get to before this is over? >> i can hear a conversation. guess what, dad? i guess he calls him dad. guess what, dad, i've got some dirt coming on hillary. we could turn this election around. this could be the long ball we could do it. i can't imagine him not telling him that. let me go back to betsy.

the israeli expert on social media that was in this meeting that we're hearing about now, the new trump tower meeting, apparently was outlaying out a plan very similar to the ones the russians used in terms of these bogus sites, hundreds of them where you can start putting out so much bad -- what's it called? kompromat on your opponent that there is no way it getting into the mainstream, the bloodstream. >> that's right. and social media was a potent tool that people outside of the united states used to try to influence american elections, not just in terms of putting things on social media, not just in terms of pushing fake news stories or putting out memes or images that suggested hillary clinton was a criminal and needed to go to prison, but russians actually use social media to organize real life in-person protests related to the campaign, and they used social media to organize protests during the transition. so social media as a tool is not just constrained to the internet. it also affects people's real lives, where they go in their

everyday business. >> and they're stirring up our racial conflicts in this country too. they were taking advantage of them. >> exactly. that's right. so social media is a major vulnerability. that's something that people in the intelligence community are trying to monitor more carefully. how is social media being used to try to influence american elections. the other piece that is important of course is we have another elect coming up in six months, and we're just barely now starting to figure out the extent to which bad foreign actors may or may not have tried to infiltrate and undermine the american election system. >> go ahead. >> this is just coming at a really vital point in the american political discourse. >> let's talk about those november elections where the senate is at stake of course and the entire house of representatives. julia, what do you make of rudy's putting out the word that he is hopeful it will be over before what he calls the comey period -- he has a phrase for it now. in other words, 11 days before the election that hurt hillary. let's right from trump's lawyer giuliani is now telling the "new york times" when it comes to the investigation of potential

obstruction of justice, that portion of the report from mueller they hope to finish by september 1. nbc news had previously reported in april, that's a month ago, that mueller was aiming to finish the report as early as may or as late as july. so it's not imminent. it's some time basically in the fall. my question, let's go to julia on this. the question is, is he -- who's calling this? is rudy talking him in to being done by september 1, or is he honestly relaying news from mueller that it's going to be september 1? >> well, that's a good question. when we look at this timeline, i want to go back to that story that you showed. when you said it was as early as may or late as july, that was at a really critical point when it looks like trump was going to walk away from ever agreeing to a voluntary sit-down with robert mueller that was shortly after the cohen raids. trump was furious. he had just brought on giuliani. giuliani had promised to wrap it up soon, and trump didn't want to do an interview. at this point, those negotiations are starting to

warm up again. we're starting to think that possibly they could agree to a limited set of questions and narrower scope. they're having the questions again. with the prospect of an interview, that would push back the timeline. because an interview isn't just existing in a vacuum. after people would interview, first of all, they'd have to prepare a lot. they'd do the interview and then take the information and go chase it down elsewhere. now that that's back on the table, it pushes off the timeline. as far as where giuliani is getting his information we do know there is often discourse between trump's legal team and mueller's legal team. but he could also be saying this because he wants to give his client a finite time. betsy and i talk a lot about how it seems in this case lawyers want to calm down their client because they don't want him to mouth off. >> i think it's carrot feeding. jennifer, i'm sorry. we have to go. thank you so much, jennifer rubin, julia ainsley and betsy woodruff. coming up, president trump went on a twitter tirade demanding that the doj investigate whether his campaign was infiltrated or surveilled by

the fbi, another diversionary tactic by the president. fearing prosecution, he wants to attack the investigators for investigating. plus, in the wake of yet another school massacre, the nra crowd is doing everything it can to divert attention away from guns. they want the discussion to be about school doors and abortion and ritalin. anything but guns. and is trump getting wise to north korea? the president is reportedly concerned that next month's a summit with kim jong-un could turn into a national embarrassment. in the time before singapore, he needs to do some necessary homework, don't you think? finally, let me finish tonight with a man who took up the task of national conscience at such pivotal moments in our history. this is "hardball," where the action is. uch of it at all. people said it just made a mess until exxonmobil scientists put it to the test. they thought someday it could become fuel and power our cars wouldn't that be cool?

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surveilled his campaign for, quote, political purposes. it seems that the recipient of such an order should resign and we're heading for another saturday night massacre. the it comes amid partisan accusations that helped gather evidence in the russia investigation. but isn't that how the fbi gathers information, from informants? trump and his allies in congress have used the reporting a as an excuse to bolster unsubstantiated claims that the fbi spied -- that's their favorite word -- on his campaign. here is chief cheerleader devin nunes appearing on fox yesterday. >> if they ran a spy ring or an informant ring and they were paying people within the trump campaign, if any of that is true, that is an absolute red line. we don't know if there is one informant or more informants because there is so much out there now. it's really getting tough to follow. and all we're asking for is give us the documentation that you

used to start this investigation. >> okay. despite those claims, the "washington post" report there's is no evidence to indicate an intelligence source was embedded within the campaign, as the president suggested. the department of justice has asked the inspector general to expand on an ongoing review to include determining whether there was any impropriety in how the fbi conducted its investigation. well, late today the president met with deputy attorney general rod rosenstein, fbi director christopher wray, and dni director dan coates to address his concerns. his concerns. late this afternoon white house press secretary sarah sanders issued a statement saying white house chief of staff john kelly will facilitate a meeting between fbi, department of justice and director of national information to review classified material they requested. for more i'm joined by robert costa from "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst, and daniel goldman, former u.s. assistant district for the southern district of new york. bob -- robert, all i see here is an attempt to deflect attention from the investigation which is moving forward, and they want to

focus on what? and i don't even know who the audience is. isn't the fbi supposed to investigate possible criminality? isn't it the jeb telephone fbi to see if the russians were involved in one of the campaigns? and what is this spooky intrigue they're trying to create? if they did that, it's terrible. no, it doesn't matter that they're doing it. they're doing their job. this reminds me so much how we get forced down that rabbit hole of iraq, setting up false premise that if they investigated, they were doing something wrong. so let's find if they're investigating or not. it look likes the old mental trick of the hard right and now they're doing wit this president. your thoughts as a reporter. >> as a reporter, when you think back to the summer of 2016 when the doj and the fbi started a counterintelligence operation about the trump campaign and russian interference, they believed at this time that they had enough information to start that counterintelligence operation. what they're now agreeing to do after consultations with president trump and having this meeting today is to figure out what were some of the other discussions happening around the

formation of this counterintelligence operation -- >> why are they whether they were colluding with the russians or not? if the question were they including, isn't that what we do in america? we enforce the law? your thoughts. >> exactly right. the fbi and doj believe they had cause to start a counterintelligence operation. but they're dealing with congress and the constitution says congress does have oversight. and some people think the congressional republicans are overstretching here, pushing doj and fbi too much, pushing them around in a bullying way. but then when you talk to congressional republicans, they say they're doing their job. and that's part of the tension here. that's what doj is trying to work with this white house. it's very unusual to have these kind of meetings and demands from a president to investigate the investigation, complicated constitutional legal questions. >> dan, isn't the criminal justice filled with people who committed crimes and say i was railroaded? it was the prosecutors that were wrong here, not me.

i didn't kill this guy. oh, if i did so, what? they still went after me in the wrong way, so let me off. i don't know. i just assume criminals always have an alternative theory that they're innocent. and now in this case is to try to impeach the investigators for doing their job of investigating. i don't even get why the crazy, wackiest far right or far anything would buy this as somehow a legitimate matt sort of obstacle to investigation going forward on whether this president and his team had something to do with foreign powers and winning the election. i just think it's still a great question. we should want to get the answer. to. >> the defense of last resort for people who are usually very guilty is to scorch the earth and attack the prosecutor, attack the messenger. and that is exactly what trump's team has been doing, particularly since rudy giuliani came on the scene. that is aided by the fact that because bob mueller is running a very professional, confidential investigation, there is nothing

coming from the other side. so there is nothing to respond to these scorched earth attacks which are designed entirely to undermine the credibility of an ongoing investigation and seeing based on the reporting we read from bob and others seem to have very little basis in fact. but there is no one to counter it. so they're able to sort of perpetuate this counternarrative in the ethersphere. >> why can't the justice department people say our job is to investigate. the fbi has been investigating people since the '30s. this is what we do. if we think a foreign power is involved with one of our presidential campaign, damn it, that's our job. why can't you question it? back to you, robert. the politics. who beyond the fringe is buying this? >> well, the president is buying it, and he runs the executive branch. so that's really thrown this whole justice department a curveball in recent weeks because they believe they have a right to pursue these things and

protect their documents, and they're trying to work with the administration by having this briefing. john kelly is going to participate in a briefing of lawmakers of highly classified material of how they use source, secret sources for counterintelligence operations at home and abroad. but they know that if they're forced to release documents to congress that they don't feel comfortable releasing because it could put people in jeopardy or operations in jeopardy, that they may balk. and that's the crisis moment when you talk to people close to justice that they're trying to avoid. >> i thought there was a chance that sessions would get around this by saying i'm looking for any impropriety in the investigations. i'm not looking for investigations where they took place or not, whether we were checking whether they had russian connections but where they did something wrong. i guess they're not going to get away with it now because kelly is going to give them everything. now they can chew on everything they get ahold of now. >> there are a couple of things that are really problematic about this situation. the first is the president who is the subject of an investigation is convening a

meeting with the people authorizing that investigation. >> yes. >> to determine whether or not those who are running the investigation should turn over material related to that investigation to the president, the subject. this is unheard of. and rudy giuliani is going on to the media in a variety of ways saying we just want to know what the informant says. that's absurd. that's outrageous. there is no investigation in this country where the subject of the investigation should get any evidence, documents, or witness statements related to that investigation before someone is charged, and certainly before they're interviewed. so that's what the ask is here, which is really difficult to comprehend. i think rod rosenstein is trying to deflate and deflect a little bit so that this issue doesn't become the "saturday night live," and he remain there's in case something even more egregious happens.

but i guess there is some compromise here because devin nunes and the house intelligence committee is not going to get the documents, but they are going to see them, which is problematic. i'm just a former federal prosecutor, chris, but you've been in politics politics for a long time. what legitimate oversight is there that they can point to in order to get this information about a confidential informant? >> i think you're talking about micromanaging your own prosecution. robert, you have a good nose for this. what do you think is coming about after this meeting with general kelly? if they're sit down and showing all these documents, it's like showing mr. nixon. should we look at the tapes or not, mr. president? should we look at the tapes or ignore them? it's like they're getting a review on an adjudicative role. i don't think you should be using that or what was your trade craft here. it seems to be a very invasive process by people who are basically with the defense. >> and there is so many

different overlapping agendas here. think about it didn't get a lot of attention over the weekend. but when i spoke to mayor giuliani on sunday, he said the president won't do an interview with bob mueller until this whole matter of the secret source and these documents with congress is settled. and so you have not only the white house and don mcgahn, the white house counsel and chief of staff john kelly negotiating with the justice department, but you have this element of the personal legal team and mayor giuliani also being in the president's ear as he navigates these issues. it makes it quite a firestorm because there are so many different lines here, so many different people involved in trying to figure out how much is going to be revealed about the counterintelligence operation about sourcing. >> we could probably move this investigation along very fast, mr. mayor giuliani by giving the president's tax returns to the prosecutor and get it over with. so all the information we need to know about the president's financial involvements overseas and especially with russia, that would be useful to have. >> i'm sure they have them. >> well, maybe giuliani should have pushed that a little

faster. thank you, robert costa, and thank you daniel goldman. >> thank you. up next, the nra's new president, the oliver north says ritalin is to blame for the rise in school shootings. the debate has to do with everything but guns. door, drugs, everything but having access to guns. that's what they deal with, isn't it? guns. that's what they sell, isn't it? guns. this is "hardball," where the action. 10 miles on every dollar they spend at thousands of hotels. all you have to do is pay with this... at hotels.com/venture. 10 miles per dollar? that is incredible. brrrrr. i have the chills. because you're so excited? because ice is cold. and because of all those miles. obviously. what's in your wallet? i'm not sure. what's in your wallet?

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welcome back to "hardball." after last week's deadly shooting at a high school in santa fe, texas, gun advocates tried to cast blame on anything but guns. lieutenant governor dan patrick of texas suggested shootings could be prevented by limiting the number of doors in schools. let's watch. >> maybe we need to look at limiting the entrance and the exits into our schools so that we can have law enforcement looking at the people who come in one or two entrances. >> he continued to avoid blaming guns when he attributed to school violence to american culture, including abortions. let's watch that. >> should we be surprised in this nation? we have devalued life, whether it's through abortion, whether it's the breakup of families, through violent movies, and particularly violent video games which now outsell movies and music. it's not about the guns. it's about us.

>> meanwhile, incoming nra president, oliver north said that medications prescribed for attention deficit disorders are the culprit here. let's watch that. >> the disease in this case isn't the second amendment. the disease is youngsters who are steeped in a culture of violence. they've been drugged in many cases. all we need to do is turn on a tv, go to a movie. if you look at what has happened to the young people, many of these young boys have been on ritalin since they were in kindergarten. >> as the daily beast points out, there is no evidence that ritalin or any other drugs are to blame for any of the school shootings we've seen in recent years. i'm joined by nicole hockley, from the sandy hook promise. nicole, thanks for joining us tonight. i don't want to be sarcastic, but it just calls for that. what do you think of somebody who says it's the number of doors? i think if we had more doors in sweden or japan, we'd have more

shootings. it's so hideous. the door numbers, if somebody is coming to the building carrying a gun, they're going to find a way in somehow. and there was one school, was it yours where it was the front door that the shooter came in. >> uh-huh. >> i don't understand why people -- and this abortion. i'm sorry. well can argue about abortion for the rest of our lives and we probably will, abortion rights. but i don't even see a tangential connection to a teenaged kid going mad with a gun. your thoughts. you lived through this. >> i think these are standard diversionary tactics rather than dealing with the issue at hand. talking about every possible other cause of gun violence, other than the one thing that everything is in common. talking about violent video games or violent movies. there are so many countries that have billions of impressions of violence every day, and they don't have the same level of gun violence that we do because they don't have the guns. and you know me, chris. i'm not about taking all the guns away. i don't think that's a realistic solution for our country. however, i think for anyone to

actively choose to maintain this blind spot and say it's everything except the one thing that all shootings have in common, and that is the choice of weapon. that is the gun and that is something that in addition to looking at all these other issues, if that's what we choose to do for it, we need to look at the gun as well you. can't exclude it from the conversation. >> well, let's go back to why they do this. you think it's just diversion? they don't want to get into gun safety. it's as simple as that. >> i think that they want to talk about -- they want to blame anything except the choice of weapon. this is about protecting second amendment rights, but in a very extreme way by saying that the weapon of choice is not part of the problem. it has to be part of the problem. it has to -- we have to look at the person, and we do have to look at their choice of weapon. and in terms of ritalin or other medications or drugs, there is no common thread that all shooters are on those sorts of medicines. there is no common thread that all shooters use violent video

games or watch violent movies all the time. the only common thing is the guns. and we need to address that. and if they just choose to continue to force a blind eye on it, then they're being disrespectful and disingenuous to this problem. >> a santa fe high school student said she wasn't surprised by this shooting. let's watch. >> it's been happening everywhere. i felt -- i've always kind of felt eventually it was going to happen here too. >> you think there is a resignation this country? it's almost like seasonal weather. anything else that happens, it's like car accidents because you have highways that are busy with traffic and people make mistakes. they just absorb this as part of a every couple of month event? . that is so heartbreaking to think that any student is sitting in a classroom thinking when am i next, when is my school going to be part of the next school shooting. and you mentioned car safety. you know we have so many deaths due to car safety, but it wasn't just seat belts that solved it. it was a bunch of different problems. and that's what we need to do

better by our kids. we have a problem, and by ignoring all the option, all the possibility solutions, then it's just -- it's just heartbreaking. i know my child, my surviving son is about to go to high school for ninth grated in september. is he going to be sitting there wondering is this going to happen again to me? this is not -- this is not the way we should be bringing up our children, for them to be sitting in a classroom where they're supposed to be learn organize they're supposed to getting to know friends, enjoying community instead teaching them to run and hide from active shooters and be in fear of their life every day. we're better than this. >> charles blow had a great great column in "the new york times." basically he showed all the polls. there is an overwhelming support in this country for gun safety, for basically banning semiautomatic assault weapons. it all sounds like you talking. and yet because you are a reasonable for safety person. and i don't understand why reasonable people have so little power at the ballot box. they just don't.

the nra, oliver north, the fact that they would pick him. i mean -- >> yeah. >> they seem to be immune to justice. immune to it. >> well, we look at all the youth activism that has come out after packland. people do need to register to vote and get out and vote. it's your responsibility to ensure that your voice is heard and your vote counts no matter what the opinion son the subject. you don't like what your politician is saying, vote them out and vote someone else in. this something that people don't engage in, unfortunately, until it happens to them. and then it's far too late. and sometimes we see even people that are very pro-gun and pro-gun rights. and when it happens to them, they still turn a blind eye. that's something i really can't reconcile or understand. >> everything you said before and now is what the american people believe, according to all the pollings. so keep speaking for america. the nra does not speak for america. nicole hockley, thank you. >> thank you. up next, is president trump getting wise to kim jong-un?

maybe. he reportedly is worried about next month's meeting with the north korean dictator and apparently is asking aides if he should go along with it. how about doing some hoch worme? you're watching "hardball." don't juggle your home life and work life without it. ♪ ♪ don't skip that office meeting for a board meeting without it. don't keep it real... keep it going... or simply keep it in the family without it. and don't turn that business trip, into an overdue family trip without it. ♪ ♪ the more you live between life and business, the more you need someone at your back. the powerful backing of american express.

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everyone thinks so, but i would never say it. you know what i want to do? i want to get it finished. the prize i want is victory for the world, not for even here. i want victory for the world, because that's what we're talking about. so that's the only prize i want. >> welcome back to "hardball" that was president trump just a week and a half ago saying everyone thinks he should get the nobel peace prize for his work with north korea. well, now with his planned face-to-face meeting with kim jong-un just 22 days away, it seems the president may be getting wary. "the new york times" reports that trump is increasingly concerned that his summit meeting in singapore next month with north korea's lead cory turn into a political

embarrassment. mr. trump's aides have grown concerned that the president has signalled that he wants the summit meet together much. all this comes as trump prepares for a critical meeting tomorrow with south korea's president moon in washington. let's bring in the "hardball" round table. anita kumar, dana milbank a columnist with "the washington post" and john wulfestall with former special assistant to president obama. let me ask john to start. this what about negotiating with somebody like a dictator. what precautions does any reasonable person have to take before you agree to sit down with somebody like kim jong-un? >> well, i think you have to make sure you know what you're getting into before you say yes to a summit. i think what we're see right now is president trump recognizing he said yes very quickly. he has already given a big gift to kim jong-un by agreeing to sit down face-to-face, and now he is not sure that kim is serious about giving up his nuclear weapons. surprise. we've been working on this problem for 30 years, and

nobody's sure about which way the north koreans are going to go. so what really has to happen now is the president and his team have to do the hard work, the preparation work, and the real questions whereby you can do all that work in the next 20 day. >> we went into negotiations with north korea in june of '51. they love sitting at the table across the table. athey love being seen by the world as equals of the united states. they could screw us to death by let's meet tomorrow again. the president of the united states is not going to park air force over in singapore for more than a day. how do we avoid that problem of him saying oh, tomorrow i'd like to offer my concessions, or next week or whatever, if you'll do this or that. isn't he just going to play a lot of games with us? >> i think that's very likely, and the fact that the president front-loaded the summit creates greater risk that the united states is giving away something for nothing. i think there is still a chance that the summit may not happen.

i think president trump really does want to it happen. >> would you go? >> i would advise the president to go at this point. i don't think he can back out. >> okay. >> but once you've committed, the question is if you back out, who is going to take the blame blaim? this is not just about north korea's nuclear program. this is also about keeping us in good relations with our close allies the south koreans. his whole career is on reconciliation with north korea. if the president backs out, he looks like he is the person to blame. so the only way you can get out of this is if north korea is made to look like they were never serious about denuclearization. >> dana, you guys get in here. >> sure. i guess the problem right now is the expectations are really very, very high. the president has said and the white house has said you have to have full denuclearization. and he just set the bar so high that, you know, previous presidents have tried that and has failed. the question is now what does he do when they say we're not going to do that. does he back out?

does he go there and come back empty handed or with something that's not a great deal? he wants to go there and he wants a full win. and it's going to be very hard to see now how he does that. >> dana, why did bolton -- i'm no pal of bolton's, but why did this neo con guy -- i guess he is hawk. why did he say we're looking for libya model. libya's president gadhafi ended up being physically mutilate affidavit he was killed after they found him in a pipeline somewhere. >> right. >> you're telling the fellow over there in north korea that he is facing that? it look likes bolton is trying to put the kibosh on this thing. >> we could be cynical about it and say bolton was trying to undermind this thing. but the most likeliest explanation was there was no thinking whatsoever, there was no strategic planning going on. there wasn't any particular idea why trump wanted to bring bolton on board. you know, this is sort of reality tv meets nuclear diplomacy right now.

there was no end game in mind. the idea let's make a splash and have this conference. yes, i'll have a nobel prize and the world will are celebrate. then reality catches up, and you find out that, well, no, this guy we spoke of is open and honest just a couple of weeks ago is sort of heading back in the rocket man direction. so i doubt that john bolton was necessarily blowing it up. i think it's probably all random happenstance just based on what's going to make a splash for the latest episode. >> anita, what's his name, trump, what's his name, our president, made his name in hour formats. it's called "the apprentice." he was a master of putting on a destruct show for an hour. it looked like it was real. this isn't going to be an hour. we're all pair pat tettic. he is not going to be thinking let's get this over with quick. >> you're exactly right. he is supposed to be there for years to come, right? the president wants to go over there and have a quick win.

but, you know, john could tell us more about this. the thing i've been hearing from a lot of people is usually you don't have two leaders meeting right away. you usually work things out at lower level staff, people that we're not really hearing about that aren't in the public eye just quietly negotiating on what a deal could be possibly. and then you send people that are a little bit higher up, and then you might have the leaders meet. and they don't meet until they kind of know that there is going to be a deal that didn't happen this time around. >> i think that's right. there is a lot of groundwork that has to happen for a successful summit, whether it's the group of seven, the group of 20, presidential leaders, there are months if not years that go into delivering verified agreements that you can trust and that you can back up. like the joint comprehensive plan of action that the trump administration just tore up with iran. well negotiated that for four years. so these things take time to do well. i do want the take exception to one thing dana said which is i don't think trump has a strategy. i don't think he knows what he is doing. but john bolton and mike pompeo

know exactly what they're doing. >> that's true. >> john bolton tore up the last agreement we had with north korea in 2002. he wants regime change. that's why he likes the libya model. that's what he wanted in iraq, and that's what we really feared now or should fear that they're gunning for in iran. >> i want how you negotiate regime change with kim jong-un. >> exactly. i think it's trump who has no strategic thinking who he is bringing on. trump is entering this with all of the thought he would if he were to be opening up trump international hotel in pyongyang. that's how much homework has been done here. >> god help us with john bolton over there. the round table is stick wugs. up next, these three people tell us something i don't know. you're watching "hardball." only botox® cosmetic is fda approved to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet and forehead lines look better. it's a quick 10 minute treatment given by a doctor to reduce those lines. ask your doctor about botox® cosmetic by name.

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so you can be confident you're getting the most bang for your buck. alo-ha. kayak. search one and done. hillary clinton spoke to graduates at yale university this mention. while she didn't mention president trump by name, clinton did take a swipe at him, cracking a joke about russian interference in the 2016 election. let's watch. >> i see looking out at you that you are following the tradition of over-the-top hats. so i brought a hat too. a russian hat. [ applause ] i mean, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. >> we'll be right back with the "hardball" round table.

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we're back with the hardball round table. anita, tell me something i don't know. >> sure. the trump administration talks a lot about merit-based immigration. but we reported today that it is part of the nafta negotiations which aren't going so well that the trump administration is actually looking at lowering the number of canadians and mexicans that can come that are professionals. so these are nurses and scientists, and they want to lower the number of visas that are granted. >> dana? >> well, when republicans took over congress in 2010, they promised a more open legislative process. and now they are on course this week to become the most closed congress in the history of the republic. 84 closed rule debates so far, the most debates squelched in the history of the republican. we still have seven months to go. >> closed debate means no amendment. >> exactly. >> jon? >> we're very worried about north korea's nuclear weapons, and we should be. we're trying to negotiate them away. the united states has 4,000

nuclear weapons. we're worried that north korea might have 20. and the united states is going to spend $1.7 trillion to modernize our nuclear forces over the next 30 years. so even if the summit doesn't pan out, i think we have enough to deter north korea. >> sounds like it. anita kumar, dana milbank and jon wolfsthal, thank you. you're watching "hardball." once there was an organism so small no one thought much of it at all. people said it just made a mess until exxonmobil scientists put it to the test. they thought someday it could become fuel and power our cars wouldn't that be cool? and that's why exxonmobil scientists think it's not small at all. energy lives here.

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let me finish tonight with richard goodwin. few people know him or would have recognized his name or think of him as a celebrity, yet like few people in american history, he left his mark. it is well noted that president lyndon johnson made history with his "we shall overcome" speech of 1965. it's recognized as his greatest ever address. robert kennedy made history with

his day of affirmation speech in cape town, africa. recognized as rfk's greatest ever speech. edwin musky made recognized as musky's greatest ever speech. it's noted that al gore moved the country with his speech conceding the presidential election. it's recognized as gore's greatest ever speech. every one of these speeches was written by the same man, richard goodwin. some people don't appreciate fully the role played by such people as goodwin. they write the speech, actually. it's their words, their thoughts, their poetry, their vision that comprises what we hear, what becomes the language and thought. and poetry of our history is they who write for the country. we know these speech writer, ted sorenson for jack kennedy, peggy noonan for senior george w. bush and jon favreau for barack obama. each was infired by whom they wrote for. and one of the greats who just left us is richard goodwin who took up the task of national

confidence and added so nobly to the history. rest in peace. thank god your words will survive you. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. tonight on "all in" -- >> i'm very disappointed in my justice department. i have decided that i won't be involved. >> the president demands an investigation. >> i may change my mind at some point because what's going on is a disgrace. >> tonight the fallout from trump's meeting with rosenstein and wray. how the president is attempting to eviscerate the rule of law, and what it means for the mueller probe and beyond. >> the department of justice is not going to be extorted. then -- people are trying to reach out all the time with this. >> fallout from the explosive news of a second trump tower meeting with foreign powers the looking to help the trump campaign. >> listen, i think politics is a dirty game. and the democrats find a rallying cry