6:00 p.m. tomorrow. "hardball" with chris matthews is up next. >> attack the prosecutors. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. in a showdown with the department of justice over the russia probe, it's been pointed out president trump has a strategy employed by the attorney johnny cochran in the trial of the century. put the investigators on trial by tairnting them with accusations of bias, dishonesty and worse he is trying to shift allegations against him to the fairness of the prosecution. the president now speaks of how the fbi used inforent to talk to members of his campaign who were suspected of dealing with the russians. he's embellished reports to make the claim a so-called spy was

used to infiltrate his campaign supposedly for "political purposes." he's now manufactured a pretext to undermine the whole mueller investigation. as a further effort in this direction, the president's pressuring the justice department to give congress documents about the origin of the investigation of him and his campaign. documents that could confirm the identity of that fbi informant. here's the president today in the oval office. >> congress would like to see documents opened up. a lot of people are saying they had spies in my campaign. if they had spies in that i campaign, that would be a disgrace to this country, that would be one of the biggest results anyone's seen and very illegal aside from everything else. it would make probably every political event ever look like small toe pay the toes. general kelly will set up a meeting between congress and the various representatives and they'll be able to open documents, take a look and find out what happened.

if they had spies during my campaign for political purposes, that would be unprecedented in the history of our country. >> by attacking the department of justice, the president and allies are hoping to convince the public our law enforcement institutions are not credible. peter writes his strategy is the to undercut the credibility of the escalating investigations targeting him and his associates. o.j. simpson's defense attorney alan dershowitz tells the times the president is preparing for a worst case scenario in which he has to try to delegitimate the investigation among his base and make it into a red versus bluish. if he can make it a red versus bluish, he can win because americans don't want to see a president impeached based on partisanship. prosecutors continue to close in on the president's closest allies. "the new york times" first reported tonight that michael cohen's business partner agreed to cooperate in state or federal

investigations in a plea deal with state prosecutors up in new york. as the story notes, the development could be used as leverage to pressure mr. cohen to work with the special counsel. that would be robert mueller. i'm joined by peter baker, "new york times" and msnbc contributor, kim wehle, assistant u.s. attorney and natasha ber hand. peter baker, you wrote in the main bar piece about this whole analysis piece. it seems to me it's the cochran method. if it looks bad for your client, shift the question with the jury over to what do you think of the la police in the case and robert mueller in this case, focus the attention at least of trump's people away from whether he did include with the russians or did obstruct justice to whether you like the justice department. if you like the federal government, and most of his people don't like the federal government. that's a pretty good place to put your focus.

your thoughts? >> i think you're right. he's trying to shift focus away from his own conduct to that of investigators. what happened yesterday is fascinating. for a year, he has been attacking the investigation from time to time putting open pressure on the justice department to either open politically charged investigations or close them. yesterday is the first time at the really met with people who are running these investigations for his justice department and fbi and force them to agree toe release information to congress they did not want to release because they consider it classified and highly sensitive. >> dch nixon ever sit down with archibald koch's people or those people running that investigation in watergate days? >> i can't think of a parallel quite like this. it's striking. it's worth remembering that offing in 2016, president clinton, former president clinton met brief lit with attorney general loretta lynch

on a tarmac income phoenix on a plane. that was seen as being inappropriate. at that time, she was running an investigation of his wife in the e-mail case. this is a far more direct intervention by a sitting president who is the boss right now of the justice department. the white house will tell you its his job to run the executive branch and he has every right to do that, but it raises a lot of questions. >> you know, kim, i was watching the nba game last night. the whole thing is, if you don't like the call of the ref, whatever the call is, if it's against you, you blame the ref. you don't say got me. and even in perry mason they say got me. defendants say you were being dishonest. >> and it's an extremely defensive posture. the facts and the law, he probably knows are a problem for him at this point. i would say the constitution is being tested. you mentioned watergate, after that we had a statute creating an independent counsel.

whitewater, that was designed to insulate the investigators from this exact pressure. >> everybody, started with this. kim, it seems to me when he calls these people in to the principals office, i want to talk to you, he's got general kelly calling them in, if they don't do the what he wants, he might bounce them all. he's going to get rid of rosenstein. if you don't give me all the evidence in your case against me so i can give it to my lawyers -- >> and rod rosenstein is taking heat on this in terms of playing ball with this game. he has an impossible decision to make. he can either agree to the depends which are problematic. >> do you think they'll stop? >> of or he could say no. do you think he'll stop. >> all right, this is a fair prosecution to me, you're right, you're the guys, i'm the bad guy. he's never going to do that. unlike the oj situation, we don't have the evidence of wrongdoing.

>> james clapper told "the new york times" account use of an informant is a canadian fact with investigations. nobody in the obama had anything to do with it. no one in the white house knew this is a routine thing that goes on all the time, clapper said. we're making a huge mountain out of a mole hill. the purpose was to understand what the russians were doing. he suggested trump is attacking the fbi for doing its job which was to investigate if the russians were working with the trump campaign. natasha, this is a game that seems to be working because we hear it might be with the hard right, with the trump people. they're lapping it up saying oh, he's catching very many investigating them. he uses informants. that problems what. >> that he's being investigated. the weakness of minds in buying this stuff, maybe they just like trump so much they don't want to the hear anything about him. >> to a certain extent, it already has worked. the informants name has been

reported by almost every major news organization since the story started being. >> how does that hurt the prosecution? >> how does it hurt the prosecutioning? >> yeah, the fact the name's gotten out. >> it doesn't necessarily but could hurt the informant and put his life in danger. this is someone who approached three different members of the trump campaign precisely because the fbi did not want to seem like it was interfering in the election for the fbi to have opened this investigation and have approached the trump campaign individually just months before the election was going to take place would have looked a lot worse than this british american professor from cambridge approaching these members of the campaign and trying to having conversations with them that seemed pretty mundane. he really didn't get much information out of them at all. the fact his name has now been exposed could present real problems not just for him but for any other informants that the fbi or cia might need to use in the future. is a potential informant going

to say when they hear their name can be splashed across the biggest newspapers in the united states. this have a chilling effect. that seems to be exactly what trump and his allies wanted to happen. >> sarah huckabee sanders said today republican lawmakers on the oversight committees will meet with justice department and intelligence officials on thursday to go over the requested documents and said nobody from the white house staff would attend and that democrats were not currently invited. big surprise. >> no one from the white house staff will end. >> would the white house welcome democrats to be at that meeting? >>. >> il keep you posted. my understanding is the ones they haven't been the ones requesting that information. so i would refer you back to them why they would consider themselves randomly invited to see something they've never asked to. >> peter, you did did the piece on this today. what's next? is this moving towards a constitutional crisis where the

president is impeaching is investigators and begins to threaten them with firings? >> we are in a really interesting gray area here because in fact, the independent counsel as we were just talking about has gone away. that law is gone. this is a special prosecutor, a different thing. and robert mueller reports to the justice department, the justice department reports to the president under the constitution, he does have a good deal of authority to run the executive agencies. however, as a matter of custom and tradition and politics, certainly since watergate, it's been seen as inappropriate for a president to intervene in a specific law enforcement investigation. particularly one that involves yourself or the people around you. so you know, is he going yorntd norms? yes. what will happen as a result? we don't know. that's probably a political question that would be -- rest with the congress if they chose to do something about it. but at the moment, rod rosenstein is in a interesting and tough position, depending

how far he will go in this meeting scheduled for thursday in terms of releasing some of this information to the republican members of the house. >> kim, when rosenstein gave this job to mueller, he laid down a mandate, the possible role including with the russians. it was a broad mandate. are they going to try to strip this back from him? >> he could fire rosenstein, you could fire mueller, amend the regulation that gives rosenstein the power. there are as was mentioned, the president does have complete control over they in terms of the constitution, he does have authority. the problem is that the other branch of government, the political branch, congress is asleep on the job. it has to go to the judiciary at this point. >> natasha, in t laying down day after day increasingly with each day, basically the argument for firing people. for basically a saturday night live in slow motion. they're laying down why they

have the right to get rid of these people because they're no damn good and leaning toward that or recognize they're going to be charged with something serious by september be afraid it's going to look terrible and preparing their troops to deny its importance. >> the easier hinge for them to do and much less politically risky thing and something they have been doing for a year now is getting their allies in the media and in congress to undermine the investigation and the people investigating trump for them. instead of firing mueller or rosen tine which could be politically explosive and could create problems for the president in terms of potential obstruction of justice, they've been steadily chipping away at the credibility of the investigation through people like that matt gates to jim jordan who had go on fox and repeat these talking points about how the fbi is filled with bad people who have made mistakes and who how the fbi needs to be cleaned out, how director wray needs to clean

house. whether or not it reaches a new level where they decide to take the next step and fire rosenstein, we haven't seen that yet. there was chatter a couple months ago that trump was about to take ta step. even at the most fraught period of their relationship, it doesn't seem trump is willing to pull that trigger. it seems like the strategy for now, it's interesting when ty cobb and john dowd, the strategy seemed to be trump has nothing to hide. why not sit down with mueller. now it seems to be since giuliani has come on, trump is in big legal jeopardy. we need to make sure if mueller does find anything or if we refuse to sit down with him, the credibility of the entire investigation is in question anyway. >> giuliani has been operating it not quite as brilliantianiantly as johnny cochran but focused on what he argues are weaknesses in the investigation. it's been 16 months since it the intelligence community assesses

russia interfered in the elections to help trump. however, secretary of homeland security, you would think she would know this kirstjen nielsen today said she's unfamiliar with that conclusion by the 17 agencies. here she is. >> do you have any reason to doubt the january 2017 intelligence community assessment that said it was putin who tried to to meddle in the election to help trump? >> i do not believe i've seen that conclusion. what i do -- >> that the specific intent was to help president trump win. i'm not aware of that. i do regime have no reason to doubt any intelligence assessment. >> what is that? peter baker, this is the cabinet minister responsible for defending this country against foreign interference, intrusion, attack here at home. the old civil defense effort with a new name, homeland security. this person is saying she doesn't believe or know about, in fact, hadn't heard that 17

intelligence agencies had concluded that the russians interfered in our elections in 2016. how could she not have learned or is she afraid to say it? i don't know how to interpret this. >> yeah, it's a surprising thing to say. she is -- >> we just lost him. let me go to kim on this. how do you explain. >> we've seen this sycophancy around the table of cabinet meetings where people are afraid to say anything. is that person being disloyal? did they say there's a russian collusion here. >> who wants a pink slip on twitter the next day. on the other hand, we had the russians interfere in our elections it's extremely serious stuff. that's what the focus should be and that's what mueller is looking at. >> thank you peter, kim, and natasha, you're all great. president trump says his summit with north korea next month might not happen. after all. that's a big blow for the

president, and maybe everybody who had a lot riding on cutting a deal with kim jong-un. can trump salvage the summit? plus with so many people using the trump to their own personal advantage like cabinet people, democrats are hoping to make a campaign issue out of that calling them a culture of corruption. and donald trump railed against hillary clinton's e-mails. now that he's in the white house, he's using a cell phone that is leaving him stroubl hacking or surveillance. aides say he doesn't want to change phones because it would be inconvenient. let me finish tonight with trump watch. this is big tonight, about the kind of offense they're running in it the trump operation. this is "hardball" where the action is. when you can do it out there. with this clever little app called audible. you can listen to the stories you love while doing the things you love, outside. everyone's doing it she's binging... they're binging...

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democratic nominee for governor. stacee abrams is backed which women's groups like emily's list and senator bernie sanders. if elected she would be the first black female governor in history. >> her opponent another stacee, evans is arguing democrats should be courting centrist republicans and independents in the general election. primaries are also taking place in kentucky and arkansas today. arkansas while texas voters are settling several runoff elections. we'll be right back.

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>> the big topic will be singapore and the meeting, see what happens. whether or not it happens. if it does, that will be great. it would be a great thing for north korea. and if it doesn't, that's okay, too. whatever it is, it is. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was president trump in his meeting today with south korea's president. according to trump, next month' planned summit with north korea's leader kim jong-un may

be in jeopardy. >> we are work on something. there's a chance it will work out, it's a substantial chance it won't work out. i don't want to waste a lot of time and i'm sure he doesn't want to waste time. there's a substantial chance it won't work out. that's okay. that doesn't mean it won't work out over a period of time. it may not work out for june 12th. there's a good chance we'll have the meeting. > despite that concession, trump expressed confidence that kim jong-un was serious about denuclearization. last week north korea threatened to pull out of the meeting if the united states insisted on unilateral nuclear. watch that word. today president trump said denuclearization must take place, i'm sorry, but acknowledged it could come over time. >> all in one would be nice. i can tell you. i'm not going to go beyond that. it would be better if it were all in one. i don't think the i want to totally commit myself. all in one would be a lot better

or at least for physical reasons over a very short period of time. you do have physical reasons it may not be able to do exactly that. for physical reasons over a very short period of time. essentially that would be all in one. >> ashley parker from "the washington post" and eugene robinson, a columnist with the "post," both contribute ez. gene, i saw you laughing at his sort of explanation there. it depends what your definition of "is" is. i was checking, i had somebody collect. i could do it myself anytime i wanted to. it was a two-year set of discussions between kim jong-un's grandfather and us. >> right. >> in the so-called ending of the korean war. is that what they're talking about, dragging us into the table in pyongyang somewhere? >> it is unimaginable to me that north korea would agree to do

anything without some sort of protracted negotiation process, whatever. it's also unimaginable to me they will give up all of their nuclear weapons. why would they? they worked for years, for decades. >> they like the libya model. they don't like the libyan model. though know what happened to moammar gadhafi. so after all had money, all this research, all this effort, to make nuclear weapons and to be treated like a nuclear power even though they're not acknowledged to be one, are they going to give that up? you know all the way? i don't think so. i do think it's good if kim and president trump talk. i think talking is better than shooting. but i don't think they're going to give up all their nukes. >> same question to you. when you look at the reporting, maybe you can't report this. you have to think it through. but the history is they don't do anything in an hour or a day.

and trump's over there, he thinks in minutes. >> yeah, that's exactly right. and when you talk to white house officials initially, they sort of said, perhaps optimistically, this isn't going to be like other times. this isn't going to be we start talking and there's concessions. there is our maximum pressure till we get what we want. you talk to them this week in light of recent news, and they've basically become skeptical or releasists which is they understand that kim reverted to his usual playbook. it may not be that different than his father or grandfather. >> does president trump know he's sitting in a dunking chair? once he sits in that seat, that guy can play every game he wants to trump could be humiliated quickly in singapore. >> what president trump did was raise expectations to really a ridiculous level. it was like i'm going to go over there, we're going to talk.

they're going to get rid of their nukes and we're going to make them rich. and so far now, the tone is that well, you know, because he has to. what negotiating leverage does he have if kim knows he's so desperate for a deal. >> i'm hearing one word, unilateral. i'm hearing no unilateral. what do they want from us? >> what do the north koreans. >> what do they want from us and south korea? do they want to take our umbrella and troops from south korea which are basically the trip wire? we keep our troops there so if they attack our troops, we bring in the big bombs. do they want us to clear out of the dmz? is he going to pull that on us the first day. >> what they actually want from us and what they're sort of currently demanding, some of that what they're demanding is tough for a show of force in their own country or for leverage or to have an excuse

when this falls apart. it seems like a lot of demands at least as the white house views them, they're unlease tick and not going to happen. >> i just look at that the rigid leader. if you wink the wrong way, if you don't laugh in unison and do anything inning that country that isn't regimental, you're dead. you get some poison in your face. he kills can everybody. the idea he's going to do a rock 'n' roll session and let's see what happens with trump is insane. he's not a rock 'n' roller, he's not sadat. he's not a guy , i don't think he's going to change his mind. >> we know less than we'd like to know about north korea. everybody i know who knows about that place says that's not how north korea works. there is a whole apparatus of officials and and ra chicks around kim, the generals, these

high ranking people who live pretty good lives and who have power and who are bought into this crazy system. and who are not going to give it up. >> they're not going to say to the president, great idea. let's go with that one. let's put that up the flag and see if that works. yop see that happening. > even if he tried to give it up, i'm not sure he would be allowed to. >> trump thinks in seconds. tweets. these people -- asians do as a general culture think much more long-term than we do. they're thinking where they'll be in 20, 30 years. this guy is 30 something. he's planning a long time. >> trump just wants the win. what's what he always wants. >> ashley, great reading every day. gene, the great gene. i mean it. i'm not always sarcastic. >> it's becoming increasingly clear many are using trump's election to their personal advantage. people in cabinet positions

flying first class, et cetera, et cetera. and democrats are looking to make that so-called culture of corruption a big focus in the midterm elections. this is "hardball" where the action is. much of it at all. people said it just made a mess until exxonmobil scientists put it to the test. they thought someday it could become fuel and power our cars wouldn't that be cool? and that's why exxonmobil scientists think it's not small at all. energy lives here. (sighs) i hate missing out missing out after hours. not anymore, td ameritrade lets you trade select securities 24 hours a day, five days a week. that's amazing. it's a pretty big deal. so i can trade all night long? ♪ ♪ all night long... is that lionel richie? let's reopen the market. mr. richie, would you ring the 24/5 bell? sure can, jim.

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drain the swamp. >> drain the swamp. we're going to drain the swamp of washington. we're going to have fun doing it. area r we're all doing it together. >> jimmy two times, drain the swamp, drain the swamp. donald trump promised to drain the swamp. that's proved to be more of a talking point than policy. his administration has been under siege with the ethical scandals trump was supposed to put an end to. scott pruitt is currently the subject of 14 ongoing probes. his white house counselor kellyanne conway promoted ivanka trump products from the white house. his long-time personal lawyer michael cohen reportedly took money from a firm tied to a russian oligarch. a top fund-raiser for trump elliott broadie tried to cash in by pursuing contracts with the uae and saudi arabia to influence the administration. but will any of this matter to voters? the democrats are betting it

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the american people are confronted with one of the most compromised corrupt administrations in history. instead of delivering on his promise to drain the swamp, president trump has become the swamp. >> enough of paul ryan, enough of mitch mcconnell turning a blind eye to corruption, not questioning what's going on here. enough of the president turning america into a nation of the rich by the powerful, and for the lobbyists. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was nancy pelosi and illinois democrat sherry bustos this week calling out the trump administration for what they say is a culture of corruption part

of the strategy heading into elections this november. let's bring in the roundtable. michael steele, former rnc chairman, adrian he will rod former senior aide with hillary for america and yamiche alcindor, pbs "newshour" correspondent. if you have a party message, do you have to announce it? don't people always know where -- usually you sort of know where reagan stood. you didn't have to have a message. you knew where bernie stands. he doesn't have to put a message board up. is it smart for a party to list its five-point crime program? >> no, it is important. the value of it is not for the folks who look and talk about it on television. but for that base out there that reinforces for them that we're out here about something and we're going to push something. he gives them something about to go out into the community when

they're running into neighbors and friends and say hey, these are one or two things we think are important which is why we want you to cop out and vote. it's beginning to field na ultima ultima ultimate narrative. >> everything before the word but doesn't matter in washington. once you get to the but -- >> the magic word. >> it's got to connect. it's got to be something those activists feel they can go out and fight for. >> follow up, adrian. adrienne, do you think the average democrat out there, whatever their background, middle class, working class cares about ethics in washington? that's a big part of this message. >> i think that's a good question. i do think they care about when their taxpayer dollars are being abused by the people they elected to serve them. >> ike the epa director. >> exactly. that is where this culture of

corruption comes into play. you may remember in 2005, 2006 that, cycle we ran on it as democrats and we took back the house. >> he raises the searle afc top people beyond the level that congresses are paid on his own against the rules. >> exactly. the list goes on and bon abuses. >> he claims he's going to somewhere in north africa but on his way to paris. yamiche, i've been in politics so long and i've seen so many people they love the perks. since when is one party better than the other? >> the democrats are now on at least third roll out of a message to try to take back the party from the republicans and still don't have the clear path, the clear path to passion that is going to be key for them taking back all of these seats and taking back control of the culture of america. so many people are kind of ready to fight trump. they want to argue about things

and want top basically start name calling when the democrats are itching to try to have a message. >> why do republicans, why are they so good at memorizing the crap trump throws out. he says something, anything about the -- he'll say that the investigation is corrupt. they'll start saying the investigation is corrupt. why the don't democrats be as good an echo chamber. they seem more skeptical. aren't they. >> republicans fall in line. >> they do. republicans have the discipline of the message. and you see it from the top all the way down. no doubt about that. it's something we usedectively in 2010. we started with the fire pelosi concept and it gravitated to a lot of other things. >> that's republican stuff. >> beyond. >> you're supposed to play golf. you're supposed to read "the wall street journal" and watch fox. they don't make up their own dance steps. they do what they're told. speak for the democrats, adrian.

>> first of all, keep in mind it's hard to break through in this media cycle that will trump is perpetuating here. so given that factor and combined with the fact that dras don't have any control right now in terms of the house and senate, it is slightly difficult to get our message out. i happen to believe the better message than schumer and pelosi are touting works and makes a lot of sense to me. >> what's the key thing you hope will ring out there? what's the couple phrases will ring with the voters between now and november? >> one of the things that is important on the better deal is is the economy is doing relatively well. democrats can't necessarily run only on the economy. that can't be the only message. this is basically saying maybe the economy is doing okay, but we want to raise wages and create better jobs. >> how do you raise wages in the private sector? >> you work on legislation that will allow private sector companies to -- that's what

we're going to see schumer and pelosi unveil in the next few months. >> how do you raise wages in the private sector. >> i'm not an economist. >> after the 016 lacks, the first thing democrats told me was they were not going to run against trump again. the message has to be bigger than we're not trump. they did that with clinton and they lost. the better deal sounds like better than trump. bernie sanders group there is that is political article that laid out that there are people resigning, the president running it is trying to install. >> it's called our revolution. the president who was running it, the part of the article said she was trying to install a consultant that had praised president trump on fox tv. there were a lot of bernie sanders progressives in that group who said we don't want this person in our organization. they have stuff to deal with, as well. democrats have to figure out how to do something other than run against trump.

>> what about just quickly, what about the bernie, plan? it sounds dreamy. health care from birth to grave for all. medicare for life. a big break on college tuitions. you wouldn't have debt anymore. what happened to that? democrats are not pushing that stuff anymore, are they? >> this is part of the issue we have in the democratic party. we all agree on the same philosophies but different ways of getting there. as you remember, this is an issue that especially on free college tuition that hillary and bernie significantly disagreed on. she didn't think every single person. america ie ivanka trump should have access to a free college education. bernie did. there are plenty of diverse -- >> the roundtable is sticking with us. donald trump used to argue hillary clinton's personal e-mail server put u.s. security at risk. and now that seize president, he's reportedly rejected measures to secure his own cell

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it starthen a decisionussion, and now you're working toward something together. can you afford it? is it the right time? yes. and you feel good about it. because you're doing this for him in return for everything he's always done for you. at pnc, we're here to help you take steps today to make a plan to borrow and stick with it. bienvenido a casa, papá. pnc. make today the day. >> we know hillary can't be trusted. we've learned that. with america's security. you take a look at her e-mail situation. can we trust her with our security? >> her server was easily hacked by foreign governments. our enemies probably know every

single one of them. so they probably now have a blackmail file over someone who wants to be the president of the united states. >> well, trump ought to know what our enemies know. donald trump spent months as you heard railing against hillary clinton for use of a private server insisting she had put all of america in danger and was sure that china had hacked her server. well, her defense for the server, it was convenient she said. today, two senior administration aides tell politico president trump "uses a white house cell phone that isn't equipped with sophisticated security features designed to she would communications," because the president thinks it's too inconvenient. yamiche? >> i think this is something that it will be a big deal when it actually can stick to president trump. he's gotten away with it. and he has this idea and this persona he's a freewheeling person. his support others inspeexpect .

>> so the rules don't apply. >> hypocrisy is ridiculous. this is where the lock her up chant started. the media ca covered hillary clinton's e-mail server for 20 months. i guarantee you in two days, we won't be talking about this. >> michael, the fairness doctrine. if barack obama had had a flirtation with somebody in the white house, it would have been scandalous. they would have been trying to hang him. if hillary had whisper today kislyak, if he had shown up at a democratic convention, it would have been high treason. how does trump get away with everything? >> gets away with it because he throws a lot of stuff on the wall at the same time. so when you're focusing on that one thing that the moment, here's 11 other things now you need to talk about and focus on. it diminishes the impact and value of that thing. this is another good example of

it. this is a don't do as i say, don't do as i do, do as i say kind of environment. the question is a simple one. i'd like to hear someone ask in the white house press briefing, so what was so inconvenient about having the white house give you a phone with security on it? how are you inconvenienced by that? it's a simple question. yet, the obvious stuff is not asked. and. >> right. >> i think in many respects, that's how they get away with it. >> i also think we cannot discount the fact the way that people first interacted with donald trump was through a reality tv show. a lot of supporters told me he was a wildcard, they understood they were dealing with someone who wasn't a politician. i mean he wasn't going to be cautious. he wasn't going to be maybe as secure as some other people. they weren't expecting a lot of same things we might expect from president hillary clinton. as a result he gets away it. it's donald trump having fun on his cell phone, he's tweeting while watching animal channel. >> maybe this is an easier way

to communicate with the russians. >> thank you, michael steele republican. adrienne, he will rod thank you. yamiche. bobby kennedy took a trip to the mississippi delta a year before his presidency. a new book takes a look at this visit and how its impact is still being felt. you're watching "hardball." watch me. ( ♪ ) mike: i've tried lots of things for my joint pain. now? watch me. ( ♪ ) joni: think i'd give up showing these guys how it's done? please. real people with active psoriatic arthritis are changing the way they fight it. they're moving forward with cosentyx. it's a different kind of targeted biologic. it's proven to help people find less joint pain and clearer skin. don't use if you are allergic to cosentyx. before starting cosentyx you should be checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms of an infection.

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with my bladder leakage, the products i've tried just didn't fit right. they were very saggy. it's getting in the way of our camping trips. but with new sizes, depend fit-flex is made for me. introducing more sizes for better comfort. new depend fit-flex underwear is guaranteed to be your best fit. i would hope now that the california primary is finished, now that these primaries are over, that we could now concentrate on having a dialogue or a debate, i hope, between the vice president and perhaps myself on what direction we want to go in the united states. what we are going to do in the rural areas of our country, what we're going to do for those who is still suffer within the united states from hunger. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was robert kennedy on the importance of addressing hunger and poverty, his victory speech after winning the drake primary in california in '68.

a few minutes later he was shot and killed. in her new book "delta epiphany," ellen meacham writes he wanted to see poverty for himself what, he found motivated for him to work for change in ways that still reverberate today in the lives of those he encountered. i'm joined by the author. a beautiful book, ellen. what made bobby kennedy go down to part of the country, the poor part of mississippi, the delta that nobody else a big shot like him had bothered to. >> thanks for having me on. robert kennedy went down there as part of a senate subcommittee investigation. they were having some hearings about reauthorizing some of the war on poverty programs about two and a half years in. one thing i think is different than when we look back on it, sometimes people think it's like celebrities do now which is not

a bad thing but call attention to -- use their celebrity to call attention to a problem but he was actually there almost on a fact finding mission. . the reporter daniel shore who are cbs reporter who did the report that night caught him an inspector general. what was especially significant to me was that he made unscheduled stops. he was a rich man's son and he was used to having people tell him what they wanted him to see and wanted him to do, but he would say let's stop here and find out. he would ask questions to mothers about how they fed their children, what did they have in their refrigerator. how were the poverty programs working. he got really annoyed with an official in greenville who didn't have numbers on how many people could actually get jobs. so he was going there to try to find the truth of the matter and try to find out what was actually going on. >> and one thing that was going on i understand was people didn't have enough money to buy food stamps.

the senate didn't seem to understand that, that people didn't have the few cents you might need for a meal. they didn't have it. you couldn't run a program of 50 cents for a meal because they couldn't afford the 50 cents. they were that dirt poor. >> that's right. it was a particularly difficult time. thousands of people had been thrown out of work in about 18 months because after mechanization and changes in farming and they couldn't afford food stamps. when robert kennedy went back to tell people in washington he thought it would be, he wasn't naive. but he thought it would be a simple proposition. and the folks in washington said, oh, there's nobody in america that doesn't have income. there's nobody who can't afford that. he looked at them and said i met them yesterday. >> yeah. he also told his family about what he had seen. that was amazing when he told the family around the table, you don't know how well off you are. here's the book. i'm holding it up. it's a beautiful booking about this one moment where we learned

about how bad it was even in this country. thank you. it's called "delta epiphany," robert f. kennedy in mississippi." let me finish tonight with trump watch. he's not going to like this one. you're watching "hardball." if you feel like you spend too much time in the bathroom with recurring constipation and belly pain talk to your doctor and say yesss! to linzess. ♪ yesss! linzess treats adults with ibs with constipation or chronic constipation. linzess can help relieve your belly pain, and lets you have more frequent and complete bowel movements. linzess is not a laxative.

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trump watch tuesday, may 22nd. 2018. i think a lot of us are thinking the same thing these days what is trump and his lawyers are up to. giuliani and the others are doing pretty much the same thing that johnny cochran and the rest

of his dream team in the greatest murder trial of the century. focus attention away from the defendant, the question of his actual innocence or guilt, shift attention to questions, any will do about the conduct confident investigation. you can see how this works. we've been there before in that trial that went on and on without getting back to the question of offering j.'s innocence or guilt. there are people in this country who want very much to find out whether the donald trump and his campaign colluded with the russians and there are people who do not want anyone to find that out. this is precisely what the last several davis distraction has been about. during that trial of the superintendent, the jury was given week after week of testimony that questioned police conduct and police attitudes while the questions of the defendant's guilt or innocence was put aside. people want to know if this president is guilt of colluding with foreign paurnz those that want to focus on anything but that keeps the national jury from thinking about that, what

trump himself knew about all this and whether he knew it. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. all in with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> one of my personal attorneys, good man. >> breaking news in the saga of president trump's lawyer. >> i'll do anything to protect mr. trump. >> tonight, why the new york taxi king's cooperation against michael cohen could be a massive problem for donald trump. >> plus, is this man about to be the next major trump scandal figure? >> i hope not. >> new scrutiny over an rnc mo you go's big payment to a playmate. then the backdoor attack on the mueller probe continues. >> do you have confidence in rod rosenstein. >> what's your next question, please. >> how the trump tax cuts for harley-davidson led to hundreds of people losing their jobs. >> thank you, harley davidson, for building things in america. >> when "all in" starts right no