it's a drone! i know. find your phone easily with the xfinity voice remote. one more way comcast is working to fit into your life, not the other way around. . that wraps up this hour for msnbc, i am alex whit. i know you will stay put the next hour and watch "a.m. joy" with my friend joy reid. >> welcome back to the studio, i want to thank you all early in the morning. i think you broke the all time

in history television rating for 3:00 in the morning. >> we had 17 released and we are proud of that record. we are in the midst of others to get others out. >> good morning on "a.m. joy." the same could be said about the reality tv presidency of this polarizing cocktail of government where buzz words and branding go a lot further than actual facts. a allowing him to play victims of his fans. which is why now as we pass the

one year mark on robert mueller problem, we are seeing trump distracting from the real crisis dogging his presidency. the president of the united states obstructed justice in an attempt to cover it up. the fake scandal that trump scripted in the media has a name, one that we are not going to repeat this morning. it has tweets go with which i am not going to read because reading the tweets is what he wants us to do. the fbi under president obama spied on trump campaign in 2016. the crusade that's fuelling the trump train and forcing the rest of us to ponder. so little with trump's lies and

chaos and confusion that you can avoid taking the fall. joining me now is maxine waters of california, one of the most vocal critics on the hill. thank you for being here. >> good morning, i am delighted to be with you again. >> i am glad to talk to you this morning because i feel like you are one of the few democrats who seems to understand that you have to have a strong public kind of branded counter way to donald trump. he's running this show. it is sort of like a reality show in which he floods the zone with new made up scandal that takes us up the plot. are you concern that your party is so determined not to center donald trump that they are avoiding the fact that he's the center right now. >> you know i am very concerned,

given all that we have learned about this president. given all of the connections of his allies and the people around him to russia rather is to putin or kremlin or the oligarchs and the fact that flynn was invited to come to russia and he was there and he earned money on the engagement and on and on that there is not an understanding about the danger of this president and the way that he has lied and the way that he has tried to divert attention. the way he tried to undo the investigation and saying it is not unlawful or legal or saying mueller should not be doing what he's doing.

the information that we know and the evidence that we see about him trying to undermine the investigation, the obstruction of justice that is unfolding right before our have eyes and the republicans are not standing up and parting from this man. the democrats feel that if and somehow we continue to talk about him or focus on him that's is going to go he knows against us rather than help us to get him focused on abide the american people in ways they'll understand the danger. it is frustrating. i think that i am absolutely correct in what i am seeing or what i have learned and i believe he's dangerous and i believe that unless we move collectively in a bipartisan way that this man is going to be very destructive to our democracy. >> and to that very point

congresswoman, we have seen multiple guilty pleas, i want to put them up on the screen. michael flynn flepleaded guiltyd george papadopoulos pleaded guilty and rick gates and on and on. how much have you heard about the mueller investigation? look at that, most people say they heard a lot. the people that heard a lot are the most intensive republicans. when you ask people, has the probe uncovered crimes. i just showed you the people pleaded guilty. no. a majority of americans say they do not know that there has been crime uncovered. look at republicans. 85% say that to their knowledge no crimes have been uncovered. i will show you one more thing a word cloud of the same organization did where they asked for your sort of stream of consciousness, what's the words

that come to mind, look at that. donald trump's favorite word, "witch hunt." i see independence in this pol s and not knowing there has been crimes covered. >> i am concerned and the way that it is unfolded, there is so much information coming out on a dai daily basis that the average americans cannot keep up with it. people go on their daily lives and turn on television in the so-called news hours and catch a little bit in the morning but they don't know all of the details and they don't understand how many countries have been indicted. three countries involved in this already. they don't know how many people have been indicted and they may know about manafort or flynn but they don't know about papadopoulos or gates or the

others who are entangled in this mess. they should know this. they should know something is terribly wrong that there is all of these connections that have been uncovered with russia. they should know about now the two meetings that trump jr. has had with russians and they should know that there was an attempt to create a back panel, a back channel rather to putin and connect our president and putin in some ways. they should know the basics but they don't know the details. that's okay, we can't give up and allow him to destruct this investigation in the way that he's doing. he lied about a spy being embedded in h is campaign. there is been no spy embedded in his campaign and lied about witch hunt. he says witch hunt over and over again. he learned some of the russia

tactics about how you deal with getting people to believe you. you say it over and over again. he discredited the media by saying it over and over again. there is no witch hunt or spies. he thinks that this lesson that he's learned and i think it is from the russian tactic that he's learned over the years that if he says it enough, he can get people to believe it. >> it is a frightening concept, so many fellow citizens don't know or care about our foreign involvement but you have been consistent in our conversation maxine waters, thank you so much and have a wonderful memorial weekend. >> thank you so much, you keep ongoing, i love the way you are handling the news and i am appreciative of the information you share with this country and the world. >> congresswoman, thank you so much. >> joining us now, kate

dawson -- natasha, i am going to come to you first. what trump does, he's clever at one thing which is branding. he says little marco and suddenly people think little marco when they see marco rubio. >> hei want to show you one example. here is from our producer, this is a trump's tweet on thursday morning in which he claims the former director intelligence jim clapper admitted he's a spy. now let us actually play james

clapper, former d.n.i. under president obama and what he actually said. >> was the fbi spying on trump's campaign? >> no, they were not. they were spying on a term i don't particularly light on what the russians were doing, trying to understand where the russians infiltrating or trying to gain access or influence. >> did the intelligence spying on president trump and his campaign? >> no, we did not. that's distortion. >> you know as a journalist you have been covering this russia-gate phenomenon and complexity is not your friend in this for the average person. from a journalistic point of view, you get your arms around something that donald trump can pick out one fact if the fbi is trying to find out if the russians were infiltrating his campaign and he turns that into

spying. there are easy proverabable faco prove it. >> the question is when do you call it a lie. this is something we are all wondering that is pathological where he does not understand the difference between a lie and the truth of this point because everything to him is just spin or is it deliberate. based on whatless less sley std last week, i discredit you because when ever you write something negative about me, i don't want anybody to believe you. that's a window to his mind set, is it worse that he may not understand the difference between the truth or lie or this is all very deliberate. this is a pattern ever since last year he's been trying thing after thing to discredit the russia investigation and the investigation of devin nunes and

the wire on carter page. informants are used by the fbi all the time and there are specific guidelines encouraging to the fbi using human sources because they are effective. he's deliberately -- they went as far as to send someone to actually communicate with members of his campaign to see if there is something there. >> i am glad to have you here. you have a few different skills set. you have also done top radio. you have been on the receiving end of the investigation. you are like me have your twitter feed filled with this information and people seem to

genuinely believe. the idea that trump has been able to get and distill down what the russia gate scandal is. russian infiltrate the campaign and trump tried to cover it up by firing james comey and other people. is there a way that can be countered? i believe so but we have to acknowledge that trump is right now winning the branding war. part of it is because i think joy, the media and the mainstream media has a responsibility to do what the show is doing and start ignoring his lies. they're not falsehoods. they are lies and start focusing on the facts. i have to go back to what to me is the most incredible revelation of the week which is former national director intelligence james clapper, let's understand who james clapper is. he's the most respected

experienced decorated intelligence officer of the last 50 years. he's the robert mueller of intelligence officers. he revealed this week what many of us have our eyes opened and suspected. he's gone on record and says he believes that putin personally directed this operation, this attack against the united states which put donald trump in office. what is he saying and how does this go to the trump branding? what james clapper is saying that donald trump is illegitimate president of the united states. it is saying in no uncertain terms that he does not trust the president and he feels the evidence is for collusion or the evidence sense it treason. when we say joy, this is not normal, this is sabotage, the president of the united states

is illegitimate. that's what the media needs to point to the fact. 75 criminal charges and 19 indictments. >> kate, what is really disturbing for those of us who have been following the campaign, is the goal of the trump's side to exonerate himself and get away with it and extricate himself in case anyone else is indicted. also to convince the voters that you work everyday with the campaign that you work on and even if it is true, it does not matter. even if a foreign government help donald trump become president, so what? to get american citizens to not mind that's the way the president come into office or to think that there is so much other random corruption and it is all just apiece and the person who are helping him do that include people who also sworn up -- the speaker of the

house and paul ryan is helping devin nunes, a california congressman who was part of the trump campaign, he was on the transition. he's obviously trying to destroy the mueller investigation even by revealing classified information. the speaker of the house is backing him up and helping him do that rather than upholding the constitution. he's on nunes' side. here is paul ryan on thursday being asked if he even believes this absurd conspiracy theory that donald trump is being spied on. take a listen. >> i don't know the answer to that question. >> he does know the answer to that question. i am concerned. steve smith have put it in much tougher term. we don't care about the national interest. we only care about protecting

trump. >> yeah, you are using the word cover up is what you are accusing of. the president has been brilliant of changing the conversation on numerous fronts. i picked up the word spy this morning and a group i was in so he's able and he's able to win the argue because of the coverage that he gets continuously on changing the conversation. the thing that i am sure we are the most concern about is the obstruction of justice. that's what you are looking at and the fear with mule zeller a the president is doing a good job of stating his case. let's talk about election, joy, and where this matters. we are in the middle of the midterm right now and the president's numbers are ticking up. do republicans, are they concerned about russia meddling, we know that people leave that russia have been meddling and

trying to meddle in our election for years. i am a lot more positive of the midterms now than i have ever been is being able to keep congress out of nancy pelosi's hands and the republicans' hands. the president right now my only thought is we are still not talking about the advantages of the tax plans and the policies. one thing that's been really good at is while we are all talking about russia. the president has been dismantling the obama agenda and that's what have the republicans excited. >> i love you kate. that answer disturbing me. it sounds to me that they do not care. this is rudy giuliani who's been donald trump's tv lawyer now asking if he thinks there is any problem with the federal government who sworn to protect the united states trying to stop russia from messing with our election. take a listen. >> what's wrong with the

government trying to figure out what russia was up to? >> nothing is wrong with the government doing that. everything wrong with the government spying on a candidate of the opposition party, that's a watergate and spy gate. without any warning to him and now to compound that and make it into a criminal investigation bill, that's why this is a rigged investigation. >> he used the buzz words and hashtags and none of them was true. >> all of them. let's set the table, the fact that we have steve schmidt. all are sounding the alarm loud and clear and what's happen ng the white house and the republican party is not normal should be testament to the american people that we definitely need to take a seat back. if you ask me why you have the republican leadership does not care is they like power more than country. they like their power and they like the fact that they are at

scale and doing great harm to the american people at scale. while we are looking over here, they are literally basicall basically -- it is unacceptable that we do not actually have a freight conversation. yes, there is a spy ring going around and there is the job of countries to be in those rings trying to figure out how do you delegitimatize one country or another. the fact that russia have been meddling in our elections, the big issue is they want to make sure we are stabilize adisstabio not believe in the power of our votes. every citizen should care. >> republicans enjoying the fact that russia is giving them on trades on massive tax cuts now. >> what they have on the democrats they could absolutely help republicans. my guests are all going to be back.

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one more way comcast is working to fit into your life, not the other way around. i was told by someone familiar with where i trust implicitly that we have been hired by trump. >> nbc news richard engel sat

down with black hughes. the source alleged that the person behind the disaccreditation campaign was ultimately donald trump or someone close to him. the white house did not respond to nbc's request for comment and black cube says they had no relations to trump's aid or to the iran deal. >> joining me is author of "losing an enemy," trita parsi, someone hiring and in the weinstein's case and they get hired to try to discredit ben

rhodes, trying to discredit people who put the deal together. they came at you. i want to play a little bit of richard engel's report regarding a phone call that you rereceice from the black cube operative. >> i don't quite follow. what exactly that happened? >> what was this person and who were they? what were they trying to get out of you? >> so i was just contacted by someone who says they were a journalist and my book just came out so i did a lot of media interviews. the conversation takes a strange term which he wants to go after

ben and colin cowel and getting me to say that there were individuals trying to deal in the investigation. it was odds because he was trying to force those words into my mouth. >> essentially they wanted your help and use your credibility to discredit ben rhodes and colin cowell. that's part of the reason they came to me. >> did you get the sense during the putting together of the deal or the immediate after math of it, were you aware or could you sense there was this disinformation campaign trying to undermine the bases of the deal as a prelude to what obviously prime minister benjamin netanyahu israel wants,

which is the deal to go away. >> oh, without a doubt. the effort to try to discredit the deal or discredit the people behind the deal has been going on for a long time even before diplomacy started. if this allegation is true and it really needs to be investigated by congress then we actually have the president of the united states ordering a foreign intelligence firm to go after formal obama officials and people supportive of the deal. that's major escalation compared to the type of this information and slanderous things that were being done prior to this. >> i want to bring balk in hecke know that the black cube operation is launched very shortly after donald trump returns from israel. we know that donald trump has a close relationship with benjamin netanyahu facing his own corruption charges back home. we know that benjamin netanyahu wanted the deal scrapped and

wanted this piece done. is there any reporting on whether or not there is a direct link that can be made between donald trump himself and any of his aids and israeli foreign intelligence services or their accolades. we know trump does have a close relationship with benjamin netanyahu but we have not been able to link to black cue to president obama. whtrump. people are going out on fox news and saying these are basically putting a bulls eye on these two people. these are the guys that are most responsible for the iran deal happening and colin kahl is

wonderful but compares to ben rhodes and the higher level people, he's not all that senior. the fact that you had this attention being placed on these two men is really, really telling and of course, coincidentally, they have been the most vocal critics of donald trump and especially on social media ever since he was running. >> and this is a separate israelly firm called sipsy-grou. robert mueller is looking at them. that's what you are looking at of a presentation made by this group called psy-group, one of the slides talking about fake news and spreading uncertainty and fake content and a lot of it directed and sanders supporters turning to clinton using fake bottoms

bots. and element five, it happens the guy that runs that group showing up at trump tower and there he was with don jr. and erik prince and george nader and joel zamel. >> i have not but what i am hoping to see is congress will actually start looking into this because the link that natasha mentioned may be difficult to get unless there is some form of investigation. >> thank you both very much for your time. >> coming up the woman who could be the next governor of the lone star state, that's next.

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today we as the people have spoken. we say that we trust women and respect women to make shetheir

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together we are going to make it happen. a stronger and fair texas, a tolerant and diverse texas. a texas where the everyday person has a voice and a fair shot just as i did. >> former texas sheriff lupe valdez is the democratic nominee of governor. on wednesday, she will face gregg abbott. if she wins, she will be the first lat ina and the first gay woman. joining me now is lupe valdez. i feel like i should call you lupe, can i call you lupe?

>> you can call me anything you want, just be nice. >> absolutely, congratulations on your historic win. how did you do it? you are latina and lgbt and a woman and a triple threat in terms of getting out the votes to marginalize people and how did you do it and how are you going to beat gregg abbott. >> let me start from the beginning here on election night when it was clear that i was going to win, gunpoii got a cal my niece and another state who was raised by my parents. my parents did not get to see me as a sheriff or a candidate or anything, tearfully she said, my mama will be so proud of you. you have come so far. i am the eighth child of migrant workers and i came from the poorest neighborhood in san antonio. from that to the candidate and the governor of texas, what a

humbling, honoring experience. how we are going to do this is texas, texas chose me. texas is not the brand that most folks are familiar with. the majority of texas is a very friendly tolerance state and that's how we are going to do it. we are going to get together all the grass root organizations and have texas actually representing the everyday and not just the small minority. excuse me. >> your story in a way sounds a lot like barack obama. you are breaking barriers and you are presenting a different face for texas as he proposed to do for the country. i want to go through some of the data. this is the hardball of politics if i can be chris matthew a little bit. the polls showing 36% to gregg abbott of 48%. that's not bad. >> that's not bad. >> let's look at the makeup of

your state. texas has a population of 42% white and 12.6% african-american. if you look at the turn out among hispanics in texas, it was only 40.5% in 2016 a. >> well, a couple of things there. first of all, you know let's not to divide the people. let's unite the people. let's not say this group or that group. we are here to unite. the percentage that you gave is one of the closest ones that we have been in years. every single election we are getting closer and closer. we are close enough to make a difference. if we continue to unite the grass roots of all the folks

that voted for me and others, we are going to make it possible. this is a winnable race. we have to continually unite the folks and get our message. the everyday texan is concerned not about the job killing bathroom bills or show me your paper bills. they're concerned of public education how their child is going to do in their future. they're concerned of healthcare and one and six people in texas do not have healthcare. these are the things that matter to the everyday texan and that's what's going to unite us, the fact that someone is their champion and speaking for them and not for the well to do or the rich or the powerful organizations. we are talking for the everyday texan and that's how we are going to unite it and make a difference. >> what about the gun issue? >> you had the tragic killing in santa fe texas, guns are

endemics and those outside looking in. how does that whine up in your race? >> look, i have been in law enforcement for over 40 years. i believe in the second amendment, as a matter of feedback, i believe in all the amendments. for the longest time of my career that a weapon was part of my calling and part of who i was every single day. i believe in the second amendment but i also know that people who can not handle their disagreements other than violence should never be allowed to have gun. our children are marching in the streets and begging tadults to o the right thing. children are saying to the adults do what you need to do. who's the adult here? we are supposed to be taking care of them and they're asking us to do the right thing in we need to step up as adults and make some changes. yes, it is a gun state and there is nothing wrong with hunting and doing what some of the sports that you do.

there is something wrong with using a weapon as a mean to take care of your disagreements through other than violence. we need to do universal background check. that's a whole bunch of things that we can do and the true thing is that the cultural of the guns needs to be taken care of and there is nothing wrong with some of it but other needs to be -- we need to address certain issues. >> sheriff lupe valdez, best of luck to you and thank you. >> thank you joy, thank you for having me on the show. >> coming up, rudy giuliani is back in the show and michael avenatti is here to respond. more "a.m. joy" after the break.

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>> let's focus on things like that that i think are unified with american people. impeachment is to me divisive. again, if the facts are there, if the facts are there, then this would have to be bipartisan to go forward, but if it is viewed as partisan, it will divide the country, and i just

don't think that that's what we should do. >> democrats are still divided over whether running on impeaching donald trump will help or hurt their chances in the november midterms. another question. even if democrats win this november, could they really impeach this president? joining me to discuss is lawrence, constitutional law professor at harvard law school and author of to end a presidency, the power of impeachment. professor, thank you for being here. congratulations on the book. i guess i want to first ask you -- thank you. -- a pragmatic question. i feel like democrats are asking a different question. they're asking a political question about impeachment and whether or not it would help or hurt them politically or divide the country that's already divided. on a pragmatic basis, does it make sense to discuss something that cannot happen with republicans in charge of congress? >> well, it makes sense to read about it. i hope people will read the book that i wrote with my co-author joshua matt. it doesn't make sense to tuck it

into the ground before the time has come when it's a realistic possibility. >> acts are clearly going to emerge by then and many have already emerged. when it goes to the senate for trial, there's no way in the foreseeable future that there would be the requisite 67 senators to convict, and at that point you can just see donald trump master of the big lie saying, you see, i have been vindicated, no collusion, no obstruction. we really need to be savvier about the use of this extraordinary power. >> all right. people did, there was a human cry to impeach george w. bush over the lies that got us into the iraq war. when she was speaker of house, she declined to did that as

well. a partisan political remedy, and only sort of a subtut for a trial. >> it was definitely designed to be a nonpartisan or bipartisan. it was understood that the last thing you need to do is try to rerun an election when you're not happy with the results. and make the people who voted for the person you are trying to impeach feel disenfranchised. whether they are heavily armed and in a revolutionary mood or not, you don't really want to take 40 million people who are convinced that this guy is telling the truth or don't care. you don't want to make them feel that they're not part of the system. it's not going to work that way. if there were the kind of bipartisan consensus that are feasible.

thens our book explains, the thing to do is to look at whether there are any other less divisive alternatives. if there were that kind of majority in both the house and the senate, then the power of oversight, the power of the purse, the power to expose the truth, the power to use subpoenas, to really bring the american people up to speed on how a hostile foreign power basically stole the election, according to james clapper. a very nonpartisan clandestine operative for many years under many administrations, we could use all of those devices. it's not togs that impeachment should be off the table. it is a device that was designed to use in extreme cases, and this is an extreme case, but you have to use it with a sense of its potential, and its up side and its down side, and what the alternatives are.

we shouldn't be just crying wolf with the impeachment card les we make it unavailable when we need it most. >> the polling shows the monmouth university poll that they do not want it done, but democrats absolutely do. the polling shows that they would be more inclined to vote for a democrat who said they would do it. >> i'm wondering if this incredibly divisive country, whether or not it might be impossible because of those politics, even if donald trump were to be proven to krit commit crimes to ultimately impeach him. >> well, you know, i don't have a crystal ball. i can't say that it would be plausible, but i don't think it's impossible. i can imagine scenarios developed on the basis -- from robert mueller where even some

of the people who have basically pitched their wagon to donald trump's car would conclude that he is so dangerous for the country that we really cannot afford to put the trust of the american people in this man. not likely, but not impossible to run it into the ground by talking about it all the time rather than understanding it. that's what we need to do. >> this is a terrific book to get you down the road to understanding it. it's called to end a presidency. next time i see i'm going to have to ask you to sign a copy of it. >> happy memorial day. >> happy memorial day to you too. you can do it out there. with this clever little app called audible. you can listen to the stories you love while doing the things you love,

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>> nothing wrong with the government doing that. everything wrong with the government -- i mean, and without any -- and now to compound that, to make it into a criminal investigation, that's why this is a rigged investigation. that's why the president has been right from the beginning. donald trump's attorney, rudy giuliani, is still out on tv for some reason, and this morning he took to the sunday shows circuit to once again try and discredit special council

robert mueller's russia investigation. in one appearance giuliani claimed that trump had been successful at draining the swamp. this despite multiple controversies around cabinet members like scott pruitt and reports about his personal lawyer michael cohen raking in consulting fees from companies with ties to russia and ukraine. joining me now is stormy daniels' attorney michael abnatti. thank you for being here, michael. happy memorial day weekend. >> happy memorial day weekend to you, joy. good morning. >> good morning. >> i wanted to give you an opportunity to sort of respond and help you decipher some of what rudy giuliani is saying as the attorney for donald trump. let me let you listen to him on cnn this morning. he asked about michael cohen and the recent controversies about him raking in consulting fees. take a listen. snoo i don't think his worst critics agree he likes that. he definitely wants to do everything he can to drain the swamp in washington, but the

most successful president doing that. anything that even raises a question about that, he is not going to be happy about. >> any evidence that michael cohen was raking in these consulting fees in contradiction to the wishes of donald trump? >> well, joy, there's absolutely no evidence of that, and it's strange credibility to even suggest it. this is a president that people that know him have routinely stated that he insists on knowing what's going on around him. he absolutely despises people that are trying to make money on his back, quote, unquote, without his knowledge. in my view there's no question that he knew what was going on here relating to michael cohen selling access, and i think when the evidence comes out -- that not only did he know about it,

but he participated in it. let me just say this, this whole thing about giuliani and draining the swamp, it's an absolute joke. these guys have -- that makes the everglades look like a backyard plastic pool. they'll say and do anything at this point to distract the evidence that we continue to uncover, to distract away from the mueller investigation that is picking up steam. i mean, they will literally do anything to divert attention from the facts and the truth. >> we know that there is nothing -- trying to trade on your relationship with someone to make yourself money. right? i mean, there have been michael cohen takes phone calls, that he has set up these sort of taxi medallion schemes. there is so much -- that you have been able to find or document any evidence that he tried to conceal, any evidence

that he concealed his activity from his client, donald trump? it. >> there's no evidence that he tried to conceal it from donald trump, and i think there's evidence, in fact, to the contrary, joy. illegal facts relating to money laundering, relating to failing to register. sferl dharjz, criminal charges that are going to result from michael cohen's conduct, and we believe that those are right around the corner. according to the information, michael cohen has disputed the story, but the bbc uncovered his personal lawyer, michael cohen, received a personal payment of $400,000 to fix talks between the ukrainian president and trump according to sources in

kiev and close to those involved, and you also have the "new york times" reporting that inside michael cohen's office on the 26th floor of trump tower, he met with a russian ologarch flamed victor vexelberg, discussing the desire to strengthen relations with the u.s. he is cousins with mr mr. vexelberg. some of the information leading to this, how does this reemt to and why is this coming up as a result of the stormy daniels lawsuit. >> well, joy. you know, for better or worse, and we think it's better, we are becoming a repository of information. people are sharing information with us on a daily basis. we are encouraging people to do so. these are true patriots in every sense of the word. people that love their country, that believe in truth, that believe in bringing the evidence the american people. they are supporting our cause, and they are providing information to us on a daily

basis, and i'm going to encourage people this morning to continue to do so because this is a very serious matter. the american people deserve to know the truth. they deserve to have the facts, and the evidence and we're going to continue to do what we have been doing, and that is speaking the truth. >> and you have been doing is obviously trying to pursue the case for your client who wants to get out of this nda with donald trump. on thursday you filed -- you and your team filed a motion to lift a stay. there's a 90 day hold on the lawsuit over that nda deal. can you explain that to us? >> the case in california was stayed temporarily for 90 days. subsequent for that mr. giuliani and mr. trump were on national television and also by way of fwit twitter and shot themselves in the foot and started talking about the details relating to the $130,000 payment, et cetera. we now made a motion to lift that stay, and what we're arguing, joy, is that there's no

reason to stay the case in light of mr. cohen's fifth amendment privilege because obviously mr. giuliani and mr. trump believe that they can defend themselves or attempt to as it relates to the charges in our case. we need to get on with our case. i want a deposition of this president under oath. i'm not interested in any further lies on air force one or lies to the media, or lies to the white house spokesperson. i want -- that's very serious questions about what he knew and when he knew it and the $130,000 payment, what he knows about the consultants, what you knew about what michael cohen was doing, and we're going to get to the bottom of this, joy. whether it takes a month or a year, we're going to get it done. >> one of the consequences of stepping out or stepping forward, particularly if you do so on social media, is that you get attacked by bots, attacked by people who support the president. you become in your own right a public figure. that's happened to you. you have experienced over the

last couple of weeks personal attacks, opo research dug up on yourself. is that something you saw coming? were you surprised by it? what is your reaction to it? >> i anticipated it. i did not anticipate people fabricating lies about my personal life, twisting things in an effort to discredit me there's over 13 attorneys representing mr. trump, mr. koen, my client, the u.s. attorney's office. i find it rather ironic that i'm the only one that they're digging around in their personal life and trying to discredit. in some ways i wear it as i back of honor, joy, because i think it shows that we're actually very effective. we're believable. the american people find us and find me to be credible, and we're going to continue doing what we're doing. i don't care what the cost is on a personal level. i'm not going to stop until we got to the bottom of this, and

we bring the event to the american people, and people find out really what happened in connection to this coverup. joy, i'm going to tell you something, the truth here is very, very ugly, and it gets more ugly by the day and the week. the president and mr. giuliani can attempt to discredit bob mueller. they can attempt to fire him or shut down that investigation. we're not going home. period. >> as you said, you said you anticipated these attacks. i mean, it's been very personal, a lot of it. you know, it's been very relentless. at one point you've even locked your twitter account. at some point i wonder if it makes it more difficult for people to come forward to talk to you, for other people who may feel that they will then fall under the same attacks, the same opo research? has it made it more bill --

>> there are legal people that do not believe in what is happening right now. believe that the truth needs to be told, and they're coming forward. these are very brave individuals, and we're continuing to encourage people to do so. we're not changing. we're not going to change what we've done over the last ten weeks. it's been very, very effective. we're going to continue doing what we do, which is speaking the truth and bringing evidence to bear and now what that results in it, we're going to leave that to the american people, and what they believe should result from it. we're going to continue to do what we do. >> there are obviously people who were paying much greater sums than the $130,000 than your client received for her nda. why do you suppose her case is the one that's attracting this much attention and these many attacks? >> i think her case is attracting this much attention, joy, because of her credibility, because the american people believe her, because of the

timing associated with this payment late in the election in 2016. as a result of the media strategy that we have utilized over the last ten weeks, as a result of us bringing in additional evidence and facts to bear through the use of social media and otherwise as well as the fact that we have become a repository of information, that people are sending us on a daily basis. i think all of those factors have resulted in this case taking on a certain degree of prominen prominence, and i think it's only going to increase in the coming weeks and months as more and more evidence is outlaid or provided the american people by us. >> high stakes game. michael. thank you for your time this morning. >> thank you, joy. >> thank you. >> have a good weekend. >> you too. next up, the trump media strategy exposed. stay with us. (vo) i was born during the winter of '77.

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>> at one point he started to attack the press. it's me and my boss and him, and he is attacking the press, and there were no cameras. there was nothing going on, and i said, you know, that is getting tired. why are you doing this? you are doing it over and over, and it's boring, and it's time to end that. you know, you have won the nomination. why do you keep hammering at this? he said, you know why i do it?

i do it to discredit you all and demean you all so when you write negative stories about me, no one believes you. >> leslie stahl revealed that donald trump let slip the reason he so often attacks the press. if you, the american people, don't trust the media, you also won't believe what we say or write about him. it's been over a year and a half since he made those remarks, so is it working? how should the press cover a president that is so intent on discrediting them? joining me gabriel sherman, special correspondent for ""vanity fair,"" maria, and fern and back as well. gabe, this week wrp treated to donald trump. actually attempting to dispute the fact that a senior administration official who now at this point everyone needs to know who they are, gave a briefing it a room full of reporters both on the phone and in the broom e briefing room that everybody -- he tweet that is it didn't happen.

that there it is. that the "new york times" invented a senior white house official who doesn't exist, and this was about the tanking of -- or maybe replanning of the north korea summit. he goes out there, and he claims with all caps that this person isn't real. this person is real. there was a room full of people who saw them. this is gas lighting on a level that we have -- i don't think we've ever seen coming out of the white house. >> i think that's clear. if you are part of the 30% of america that is a trump supporter, his reality, his -- what he says is the reality, not what his objective reality that any other person with their own eyes can see, and i think that is scary. i think the question is, is that base, that 30% enough to keep him -- his political survival, or that dwindling core. i think the next several months as this robert mueller investigation --

>> we ask that question in the media, and i'm wondering if that is the wrong question because you almost feel like the media predicates the importance it puts on a story on whether that 30% cares about it or want. if trump voters don't care about it, it is not important. some things are objectsively important, right? is the media doing too much excavation of trump voters feelings, and if they don't care, then the media says, well, maybe it's not that important because it won't stop him from being re-elected. >> that was the -- you know, in the post-election, post-2016 there was this endless russia, understanding the trump voter. i mean, i think the question of whether we should cover the president's tweets, they are presidential statements. even if it is a falsehood or a lie, i think it's its own form of bias. the important thing was to expose the lies and the falsehood and the gas lighting, and hope that over the long-term, there is such a thing as reality, that there cannot be this sort of manufactured sort

of putin-like russia-like reality where the kremlin makes their own reality in russia. that is what trump is attempting to do here in the united states. why does the media uphold the rules when trump says this person who everyone knows who they are isn't real. why -- >> that is a great question. that will be debated in journalism schools. i mean, i guess the question of where i come down, if you honor a background agreement, if someone deals with you in bad faith, does that entitle you to then break those sort of journalistic ground rules? i worry that if it does, it defines sort of behavior down wards. that we are all then subscribing to the worst intentions. we are sort of following trump's rule where it is basically any deal can be broken. if i interview a source, and i say i agree to keep this on background to then out them after the fact, i feel

uncomfortable about that. >> i hear you. let's talk about the other thing that he does, and i'm glad we still have theresa and fernand here. let's go back to the 1990s for just a second to the clinton era. take a listen. >> at the white house itself more awkward attempts at damage control and what's fast becoming known as travel-gate. >> problem number two, travel gate. the chairman of the house committee investigating travel-gate says the issue here is honesty. there are all these things that even if you don't know what they are, specifically, you know they were bad things the clinton people did, right? they were branded that way. the media has been very reluctant to do that with russia-gate, with donald trump. it's this amorphus things that happened, and the public is completely confused by all the names, et cetera. is that something that -- let's talk about the democrats. is that something that they've done wrong? >> you know, there's no

question. i think you open up a great philosophical question here. if the media is not doing its job, the main stream media, we're not talking, of course, about fox news, but the main stream media, joy, are they complicity? it do they in essence become state media. folks like to obsess about trump's media strategy. let's unpack and walk that back. it's not trump's media strategy. it's putin's media strategy, use it might say a dictator's media strategy. i'm the son of cuban-american exiles. i have seen what happens, and i know what happens when you lose your country. the first thing the total aurn autocrat does is demoralize, diminish, and try and discount the validity of the mainstream media. trump is doing nothing different than any other dictator has done, whether it be in venezuela, cuba, turkey, china, north korea. the idea is to sabotage the media so that the public, therefore, ends up in this state of confusion. i think the media does have an

obligation, joy, says to call it out and you can do that in a way without violenting any journalistic standards, and it starts with saying lies with being said. not falsehood, lies. he is deliberately zoodeceiving. i think part of the branding is on the media because they have the platform and the voice to take these messages to the public at large. >> absolutely. you know, i'm going to play one more soundbyte. this is lou dobbs, and this is donald trump taking credit for creating a brand that we hear -- a catch phrase we hear literally every day. take a listen. >> it is so fake, and you know rg i have come up with some pretty good names. i think one of the best names is, you know, i have really started this whole fake news thick. they've turned it around, and now they're calling stories put out by facebook fake and they're fake. >> no, no, no. he didn't invent the term fake news. buzz feed first koicoined it. they were talking about teens

that were duple trump supporters with fake news, ironically enough. he may not have come up with it, but he did popularize it. there's a google trends chart that i want to put up now that shows being look at that. the term fake news is being used for years. it's being used low key. >> he does have the ability to brand, and his phraseology gets picked up by even the press. >> well, and it gets picked up by other authority tarn regimes. filipino is now using it. moduro is also use it. i want to go down deeper with what fernaand was saying.

what kept columbia from being a failed democracy was the institutions of justice, the justice department, and the courts and journalism were the ones that basically kept that country from being completely failed. they also happened to be -- if you were a judge or a journalist in columbia during a dark period of the 1980s and 1990s, your life was on the line, and we have to make sure that he is -- trump is taking a playbook directly from that. he wants to make sure with the mueller investigation. he wants to make sure that we are questioning our courts and questioning the fbi. he also wants to make sure that there's a lingering question mark every time the main stream media basically makes a pronouncement of his misdeeds. my concern, though, is that we are playing so much into that 30%. who voted for donald trump? we're not taking into account the three million people plus more that did not vote for him. why did they vote for her? what are the issues that really people are grappling with? we spent so much team trying to

figure out the other side, but in reality the majority of americans are not aligned where, how do we make sure that we address their knees and make sure that that -- those voices become much more visible. we do a great job every single weekend, but we need more of that. >> republicans unfavorable towards the fbi, and sort of mixed mostly favorable, but still under 50% even with independents, and i wonder, you know, and i'll throw this over to the panel, whether or not this dragging down of even

federal law enforcement institutions by trump is actually working for him. >> well, i'll just jump in. i think dan balls had a piece in the washington post this morning that asks that very question, and his reporting shows that it is, in fact, it's moving public opinion away from the independents of the justice department so that whatever mueller finds will be entering into this partisan cloud, and if you are inclined to be a trump supporter, you will discredit it. independents might say, i don't know, it's a wash. that's the pro be. donald trump is not bound by rules of probity and silence whereas robert mueller -- >> shame. >> or shame. robert mueller is just doing his job. you don't know if the fundamental facts of what he has uncovered until he delivers them to the justice department or congress. the fact is this is a one-sided fight. ufrl rs, trump is able to use that vacuum. >> in other words, he is not a brand. i want to show you something. this is -- i brought this especially for you. we're going to talk about this wrash you do polling, and i'm obsessed with it. what would you call this?

>> coca-cola. >> you call it a coke, right? what would you call these? >> q-tips. >> right? >> what would you call this? >> kleenex. >> right? okay, kleenex is a brand. these are tissues. we just reflex e plexively refer to them as clean eksz because they've done a great job branding, and they are the term for this. kpeer objection has done it with copy machines. q-tips has done it with cotton swabs. we subtut the brand for the thing. it's been effective, and companies that are good at it, are really good at it. i wonder -- trump is really good at it. he brands marco rubio, little marco. democrats are bad at it. really bad at it. why are democrats so bad at it? >> well, because we like to think in a little bit more explicit terms than the average, you know, simpleton, which is what i think this trump lowest common denominator branding does. let me go back to this point

that you made, joy. i think we've taken some shots i think at the media deservedly. part of the reason a lot of these institutions in this trump branding works is because of a blind spot that i don't think the founder even thought of when they set up this wonderful system called the united states with the separation of powers. we've seen that trump is relying on his salespeople, and those are the republicans, these complicity republicans, it is same republicans who during the campaign called him a conman, liary, trader, pathological dis torter of truth. they are now mimicking and carrying these messages that trump talks about whether it's around the fbi, the intelligence agencies, or even the main stream media for that matter. i think that is the vulnerability that americans couldn't count on or wouldn't count on that republican party members would be so explicit in coping to this fake news phenomenon. he learned it from fox news.

we ask ourselves why do the 30 million people still support donald trump? it's because they are in a media echo chamber. they're listing it on our facebook feeds. they're listing when they turn on fox news, and then the presidential tweets. >> all you know witch hunt, witch hunt, witch hunt. dave sherman, thank you very much.

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. >> clapper is talking about spying. he has an obligation. brennan was chief torturer in charge. then he disowned it. then i don't know what he did with the cia, but he is the most political -- either than that, and clapper, yeah, well, they're not civil servants as far as i know. >> wow. donald trump's lawyer and television mouth piece rudy giuliani is echoing his clients playground politics, calling former cia director john brennan and former director of national intelligence james clapper clowns. clapper, who is also making the sunday show rounds this morning, had this response. >> in the space of a week i

progressed from being the dumbest former intelligence officer in the planet, according president trump, and now a clown. you know, it's progression at its best. i just -- more in the narrative here. >> back with me are kate and dawson, and maria. you know, james clapper is very respected. he was a very able director of national intelligence. not an easy job. he is now having to respond to school yard taunts and name calling from rudy giuliani who has -- who does not stack up to him in any way in terms of knowledge or foreign policy, but that aside, he is also happy to answer what seems to be very elementary question about what we do with fbi informants and whether or not their name should be exposed to the person who is the subject of an investigation, which seems even to me a non-lawyer, elementary. here is jim clapper. on cnn about whether he knew the identity of the fbi informant who was helping the united

states ferret out foreign interference in an election. >> did you know about the operation or not? >> absolutely not. i did not know about it. nor would it be appropriate for any dni to know about the specifics of informants, the identities of what they're doing on the part of the fbi. there's lots of reason for that, not the least of which is the confidenty and the protection of the informants. >> do you ever feel like you're in the upside down when republicans are arguing that the fbi is bad, that the former dna is a clown, and that the names of confidential fbi informants should be exposed even though they're trying to help the united states just because trump? >> well, it does get you confused, says and certainly director clapper is -- no one really knew who he was until now in my opinion. certainly ruhle rudy giuliani has a large presence, especially

in new york politics and republican politics. the information coming that you hear does a lot of times get extremely confusesing and convoluntarily outed. i believe most of what director clapper says is true. he is factual. he was with the prior administration, so that gives you pause on exactly what the message is and how it's coming, and rudy is doing the job that he has been hired to do. we'll see how this all shakes out in the summer as to where spy-gate hangs around for a while and the messages continue to be the same. >>. >> >> the people who took this investigation and turned -- spying on the russians if what you are trying to do is to show

the russians kol outing, whatever the hell that means, with the trump campaign. there's no proof of collusion. stop the investigation. >> maria theresa kumar, i not the government. it's just the former fbi director, the fortunatelier dni and john brennan. i don't understand what he thinks. >> i think part of it is let's remind the american people that the people that he just mentioned were republicans. >> yes. >> and they are republicans, and they are heading up our law enforcement to insure that there's integrity of our electrics. when he had information both on the hillary campaign and the trump campaign, he chose to put his thumb on the scale on the hillary camp, and he basically said that she was now once again opening up her investigation. they made no mention of what was happening within the trump campaign. i think that we have to be very clear that when we are talking about this idea that mueller and -- do the job of the

democrats, that is absolutely -- stick to the letter -- clearly the fact -- from the president's inner circle. it should give every american pause, regardless of party. >> by the way, jim comey is the guy who blew up the election and partially cost hillary clinton the election because he marched out 11 days before and reopened the investigation publically. let me play a little bit more of jim clapper. he was not -- let's play a little more of jim clapper also on cnn talk about another thing that is norm shattering, which is the president's lawyer attending an intelligence briefing that he really shouldn't have been in. not to mention devin nunez, who was in there too. take a listen. >> i'm starting to imagine what would it have been like had somebody just walked in at that

session, which had extremely sensitive information. that's just not done. it's really konts are aconvenients a long-standing practice and norm that makes our government work. >> you know, you talked about sort of the way that things progress in authority tarn states. this is completely unprecedented, and it's happening, and it just happened, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. >> this is the central point. first off, putting aside the shakespearean richness of rudy giuliani who likes to dress up as a drag queen and walk around like donald trump in department stores and call people a clown. i can't get past that. i think bob mueller is going to have the says last laugh. rudy is going to get indied. it's not unironic that he ends up being general counsel. i think part of the strategy is for rudy to see what's part of discovery so he knows where he is vulnerable. what james clapper did this week, james clapper who served

under five democratic presidents and four republican presidents whose credentials are unimpeachable, james clapper said that donald trump is an illegitimate president. that is what trump and giuliani and pence and all of the vishi republicans don't want to be articulated. they cannot deal with that framing. that trump is a sabateur. it puts everybody in a box, and that is why clapper's revelation this week, i think, will be a turning point for history and all of the insults and the trump branding and the putin branding in the world can't escape what james clapper told us this week that putin swayed this election to get donald trump elected and that he is an illegitimate president of the united states. >> the last word. are republicans prepared to go into history with their arms locked around donald trump come what may no matter what else is

revealed about the way he got into office and the way he has kwuktd u conducted himself since? >> well, illegitimate presidency is incorrect. donald trump won the electoral college, and for a lot of the mainstream republicans who fought against him, we nabbed that he won. at the end of the day we'll be wrapping our arms around the policies and what he is doing to move the country forward economically and around the policies he has as far as international relations, korea, china, russia to a point. that's what we're wrapping our arms around, and we're dpg find out in the fall exactly what we have in the midterms hit. >> well, you are wrapping your arms around the policies, but you get trump with it. we'll see how it all shakes out. have a fabulous and a wonderful memorial day weekend. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you, joy. >> thank you. >> coming up at the top of the hour new signs that donald trump's on and off again north korea summit may be back on.

next, a preview of our town hall. (vo) i was born during the winter of '77. i first met james in 5th grade. we got married after college. and had twin boys. but then one night, a truck didn't stop. but thanks to our forester, neither did our story. and that's why we'll always drive a subaru. this time, it's his turn. you have 4.3 minutes to yourself. this calls for a taste of cheesecake. philadelphia cheesecake cups. rich, creamy cheesecake with real strawberries. find them with the refrigerated desserts. hehi, welcome! with real strawberries. good to see you. hi brody. are you stinky? wow, this is a busy place!

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there is just the beginning. this isn't a magic wand. >> that's right. this will be woven into the fabric how we operate as a company. >> on tuesday starbucks will close it's 8,000 plus stores for racial bias training after an incident sparked a nationwide out cry. last month a manager at a philadelphia starbucks called police on two african american men and accused them of trespassing because they didn't order anything while waiting for a friend. on the day starbucks closes its doors, chris hayes and i will host a town hall event on everyday racism in america. right now is msnbc's termaine lee. you shot a lot of interesting pieces for this. we had bob marley's granddaughter that ripped police

after a robbery claim at a california air b and b. >> this is a case that speaks to the absurdity of living in everyday life while black. they were with friends at a festival. when they were checking out, a neighbor is standing there with her hand on her hip and sees these black folks coming out of the home with luggage. she called 911 and said there are black people stealing luggage from this home. four or five cops show up with hands on holsters and interactions with black people and police can take a left turn quick. >> it is a physical threat because of what could happen and transpired. people don't think much about it, they just do it. >> without question. it's like we're living in an alternate universe where rules don't apply. your black skin, body moving in especially white spaces is cause for concern and call the men with the guns to remove you. >> we have people moving into

the apartments stealing, moving furniture in. doesn't make sense. a nordstrom rack store, he's in there to buy a belt. >> it was embarrassing that we, three black men, everybody all right look at us like we crazy. we in a parking lot talking to a police, three police at that and three police cars. that look bad on our part sglem bar . >> embarrassing? >> yes. all that over something we didn't do. >> people don't think about the fact being surrounded by cops on the street is humiliatinhumilia. not just embarrassing, everybody is watching you on the street being seemingly arrested, you look like a criminal and made to feel like a criminal. do people talk to you about the psychological toll that took on them? >> yes, three best friends known each other since they were 7 or 8. every move they made, they try to do the right thing. one is in college and two more on their way.

it was embarrassing and in st. louis, missouri, a tough place to be a young black man and doing everything they can to get out of it and shining white for those coming behind them but the one young man said i think about it every day. every time i wake up, it's the what ifs. what if we made a movement? if the cops weren't as cool as they were? they said the cops were pretty understanding. what if they got the bad apples? >> what was the most disturbing story you got? >> the big take away for me and we know this, you can't respect your way out of racism and educate your way out of racism, you can't articulate with your voice your way out and that at every turn, the police were called. >> yeah. >> men with guns and we seen this time and again. >> were you able to talk to any white americans why they reflective recallly white americans why they reflective recalll called polic? >> what is it about black bodies and black skin moving through

everyday life. >> barbecuing. >> barbecuing, at yale, air b and bing while black. >> i feel like that is the thing we need. we almost need to do a different town hall to ask people why do you call police if you are comfortable with the police and not afraid, sure you call them. you think they are problem solvers. >> they are heroes. we know they are still from the time we got here in 1619 there is this fear of us that something bad is going to happen. they were violent or ignorant or criminal. >> or we're inappropriate in the space. did a tremendous job. be sure to watch our special town hall on everyday racism tuesday night at 9:00 p.m. eastern. more "am joy" after the break. it took a whole lot more. that's why i switched to the spark cash card from capital one. with it, i earn unlimited 2% cash back on everything i buy. everything.

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and that is our show for today. thanks for watching. "a.m joy" will be back next week end. up next, alex witt has the latest. >> do you have anything fun for tomorrow? >> great summer kick off. enjoy. a good day to all of you. i'm alex witt at msnbc headquarters. high noon on the east. 9:00 at the west, president trump fumes, we're learning what went down inside a classified briefing this past week. >> i told mr.