mueller has learned through this probe. that's what we have our eye on. thanks for watching our special coverage and a happy memorial day to you. "hardball" with chris matthews is up next. 20 years of donald trump. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington with a special edition of "hardball." long before he took up the most powerful office in the world, donald trump had established himself as a public figure, always willing to share his thinking about the issues and events of our time. through two decades, i've interviewed this pair pat tet tick and too often divisive president more than a dozen times, and viewed today, those conversations take on a new meaning when seen through the lens of trump's presidency.

let's begin with trump's first appearance on "hardball" just days after former president bill clinton confessed to his relationship with former white house intern monica lewinsky in august of 1998. trump, who is now facing allegations from stormy daniels, said that president clinton should have taken the fifth amendment to avoid admitting to the affair. >> let's talk another 52-year-old, bill clinton. what's he need to do? >> well, i don't know. it's so embarrassing. and you really have to say where does it stop? i really like this guy, but you really have to say where does it stop? why do they keep revealing the details? he had sex, but now they talk about the kind of sex, where it took place, where it was, on the desk, off the desk. it's so out of control. i've never seen anything like it. i just can't imagine. >> do you think he could have gotten away with a complete mea culpa in january when he decided to cover it up? at that point if he said i'm going to throw all my money on the table, the american people like me. >> i don't think he could have

done anything worse. i certainly would do something different. paula jones is a loser but she may be responsible for bringing down a president indirectly. that statement was a bad statement to have been made. and it's proven to be false. . >> which statement was that? i'm sorry? >> the paula jones in the deposition, which really started this. >> when he denied it. if you're in a hole, stop digging. at some point you walk away from the deal. i'm not dealing here anymore. i'm going to drop his line. >> i think his little speech after it was a disaster. it wasn't in the right tone, and i'm not sure he should have done it. i'm not sure he shouldn't have just taken the fifth amount and said look, i don't get along with this man, starr. he is a republican. he's this, he is that and just taking the fifth amendment. it's a terrible thing for the president to take the fifth amendment, but he probably should have done it. i don't think he could have done any worse than what's happened. it's such an embarrassment to him. i see him walking around. it's a terrible embarrassment. >> where is he going? up or down? >> well, i think the best he can do is tread water two years.

i think he can tread. maybe keep the office and just tread and get out as opposed to nixon who got out in a rather harsh manner. it may be worse than that. i believe the best he can do is tread water. >> do you have when you're waking up in the morning, donald trump, you've won every battle you ever fought. why don't you onerun for president? >> people want me to all time. >> whoa what about you? >> i don't like it. can you imagine him with the women? what about me with the women? >> our next interview mr. trump was our 1999 college "hardball" tour at the wharton school of business at the school of pennsylvania. even back then trump was talking up a run for president in 2000. here's what he had to say about his future bride melania, but also about the institution of marriage. let's watch. >> you have another special guest here i'd like you to introduce at this time. >> i do indeed. >> i see her. >> my supermodel. where is my supermodel. this is melania. this is melania knauss.

stand up. [ applause ] . >> and one thing it's safe to say about you, donald, you know the difference between slovakia and slovenia. >> i do. i do. i absolutely do. >> let me ask you a tough question. this is a technical thing, but it's kind of fun. the president of the united states gets an allowance to live on. that's why you never have to cash a check when you're president. they live us off, basically. you won't have that problem. they have an allowance for parties and whenever they pass out the wine glasses and have hors d'oeuvres. the first lady gets to control all that. how are you going to handle all that? >> well, i got myself into a lot of trouble that i said could be married within 24 hours if need be. see, that's what happens when you go to wharton, folks. it's one of those. but i could handle it. i could handle it very easily.

i'm not sure that today being married, and i really could be married, and, you know, it's one of those things. but i just got out of a marriage. >> so you'll handle the social arrangements if you get elected president yourself? >> i guess myself or we'll see what happens. lots of things could happen. lots of changes made. i believe -- i have to tell you, though, in all seriously, i believe strongly in the institution of marriage. to me marriage is an incredible institution when you get it right. my parents, my father just died, as you probably know a few months ago. they were married 63 years and they had the most incredible marriage. i think the one thing that my father couldn't believe and really didn't understand is how could you get divorced? divorce wasn't even a word in his vocabulary, but it happens. i believe in the institution of marriage there is nothing better. it beats being the world's greatest playboy by a million but sometimes you don't have a choice. >> so if you're president of the united states -- i got a question about that later. but if you're president of the united states, you expect it will be inevitably a first lady joining you at some point?

>> i do. >> melania, would you like to stand up and answer one big question? the only persony imagine putting jackie kennedy to shame. melania, would you like to be first lady? >> yes, it would be an honor to be a first lady. [ applause ] >> in that same 1999 interview, trump said his top concern as commander in chief would be to stop nuclear proliferation, and in particular preventing a conflict on the korean peninsula. and now nearly 20 years later, trump finds himself grappling with a nuclear north korea. let's watch. >> if you get to be president, define the nirvana, the great age of trump. what would it be like? >> i think the nirvana would be cleaning up the world from nuclear missiles, because ultimately we have got ourselves a big problem. and these young folks in this room, and they're incredible, these people are going to have themselves a bigger problem than me or you or anybody else.

frankly you have north korea that is loading up with nuclear warheads. you have other countries, china. russia has them and they don't even know who is controlling them. i think it's singly the biggest issue out there, and somebody has to talk about it. now i brought it up. people don't like mentioning it. but that really has to be done. >> let me ask you about some things that loom ahead. you're president of the united states. you get a call from the cia chief. he says i got to come over. the cia chief comes on and shows you all this paper that shows the north koreans are ready to move. they're going use the tunnels they've got there. perhaps the threat of nuclear. their armor is mastered a at the border. how would go about dealing with a situation like that? >> i'd have to see where they are. i'd have to see how the south is reacting because obviously the south is going to have something to say about it. i will tell you, though, and i alluded to it at the beginning, that north korea in my opinion is probably our single biggest problem right now. >> would you say a threat if you move, we move, you're gone? >> i don't want to signal

anything right now. i don't think it's fair. i don't want to have it held against me at a later date. but to be honest, something is going to have to be done with north korea. they're out of control. they're very unstable. they're very militant. and something is going to have to be done. >> trump next joined me in april of 2001 to discuss president george w. bush's first 100 days in office. he gave the new president high marks and contrasted bush's style in office with that bush's predecessor, bill clinton. >> you know, mr. trump, it seems to me that we have a president here different than some of the guys running recently. he is not exactly a political junkie. he doesn't talk about politics like a senator. he is kind of an mba kind of guy. do you sense watching him. you're a wharton guy. he sahar vard business guy. do you have a sense he is running this more like a business, the white house now? >> i think he is running it really well. i think he is doing an awfully good job. he's had some little turmoil with china and other things that weren't expected, they weren't anticipated.

but he really has stepped up to the plate, and i think he is becoming very presidential and doing a very good job. >> if you had to do a scouting report on a chief executive, how would you compare him -- put these two men side to side. the new president we'll watch for 100 days now, and the president we had for eight years? >> you're talking about opposites. bill clinton was very comfortable, very everything. but, look, a lot of people were extremely upset with him, and especially the way he got out. i like him very much. but i know of mark rich. i've been studying mark rich for years. to give him a pardon was -- it was just something that was inexcusable. i think that we're dealing with very opposites, and i think that's exactly what the electorate wanted. they really wanted opposites, and that's what they got. >> do you is a sense that hillary clinton has really moved on to her own political entity? i'm not talking about her marriage or anything, but as a person she has dropped the booster rocket completely. she is hillary rodham clinton now. bill is not part of the scene. >> well, i think she is very much. i think she very much loves him.

she's had to go just on a personal basis, which is probably more interesting to most of the people, i'm sure to all of your viewers, the fact is she really does -- she is totally in love with this man. but boy, she has had a tough time of it there is no question about it. >> do you they that pardon for mark rich which you don't think was a good idea, do you think that hurt her in new york? >> i think it hurt her. i think it really hurt him. people that were really backing him and willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, just said at the end, look, we've just had it. it was sad. and i like him so much. i think he is terrific in so many ways. but it was just a culmination of so many different things. i mean, i have friends that no matter what he did was okay. when he did that, they just gave up. and it was a very sad thing. i think for him. >> that same year, 2001, trump joined me again, by phone this time, just six days after the attacks of 9/11. here is what he said about rebuilding downtown new york, and how new yorkers pulled together amid the devastation.

>> okay, we have on the phone right now new york real estate developer donald trump, an old friend of this show's. mr. trump, let me ask you the question. rudy giuliani said the best thing america can do for new york which has been so hard historically is to go to new york and spend some money. what do you think? >> well, i think that's true. judging from the streets today, chris, a lot of people are out there. a lot of people are very proud to be new yorkers and very proud to be in this country generally speaking. it's been amazing there has been an amazing show of confidence and faith, despite what happened with the almost 00 point down market. >> you know what shocked me about new york very positively? i'm usually shocked negatively, is the way everybody seemed to pull together last week. it wasn't like who is the cop, who is the fireman, who is the rich real estate developer, who is the stockbroker. everybody seemed to be on the same level. tell me what you're thinking. >> it's a truly great city. i've known it for a long time. and people that are here know it. it really is. it's a truly great city.

and i think they've really proved hit the week. our firemen, our policemen, these people are so brave, it's unbelievable what they've done and what they are doing. i watch the dig-out now, the construction workers. i've never seen anything like it. it's a tragic event, but it's somehow pulled the country and new york even closer to together. >> do you think new york needs to replace, donald, do you think -- you need to replace the world trade towers? >> well, the big question is the tenants. how tenants, how feet are you going to build? it certainly would be beautiful. symbolically it would be important. the world trade center was never considered a great architectural masterpiece until about six days ago, as you know. and now all of the sudden everyone is talking as though it was the greatest. i really think we can do better. but i do think it's important to rebuild in some form and maybe a much better form, a stronger form than even the world trade center. >> coming up, throughout my years of interviewing donald trump, i request him about

running for president many times. he teased the notion, but his answer to me on this subject could also be surprising, and that's ahead. this is a special edition of "hardball," 20 years of trump. margo and sam had a vision, brought to life in one coat. whatever your home may hand you, behr through it, in one coat. behr marquee, #1 rated interior paint. guaranteed in 1,000 plus colors. right now, get incredible savings on behr paints and stains. exclusively at the home depot. but prevagen helps your brain with an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. the name to remember. my mom washes the dishes... ...before she puts them in the dishwasher. so what does the dishwasher do?

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welcome back to this special edition of "hardball," 20 years of trump. we continue our look back on the interviews i've done with donald trump to see what we can glean watching the evolution of the man who became our 45th president. the attacks of september 11th figured prominently in candidate trump's 2016 presidential campaign which brought him criticism for his attacks on muslims. but back then, the real estate billionaire took a more measured tone, and he preys on then mayor michael bloomberg, someone who would later become his critic. let's listen to this exchange i had with him six months after the attack. >> let me ask you about new york. you're not just a great builder in new york and developer, you're a figure of almost comic

book status. you're a major personality in new york, in the celebrity culture of new york. you're part of the pizazz of manhattan and the big apple. how is that mood of the city changed? is it less frivolous? is it more soaker? how has that changed? you know this as well as anybody. what's the answer? what's different about new york? >> well, there is a sadness, but at the same time i've never seen the spirit in new york today. i think michael bloomberg is doing an amazing job as mayor. he is doing a really great job. i've known michael for a long time. he is going to go down as a great mayor. it is really -- there is a sadness, but there is a spirit, and i say new york will come back stronger and bigger and better than it ever was before. >> 2016 wasn't the first time donald trump dived into politics. in fact, he spoke of running as far back as 1988. in 2000, he launched an exploratory committee as a reform party candidate. in 2003, i asked if he was still interested in politics. let's watch that. >> donald trump, you talked about possibly running in 2004 after pulling out last time.

are you still possibly interested? i think you're a republican. that's my guess. you wouldn't challenge the president this time, would you? >> well, no, i wouldn't. number one, i never wanted to run. i looked at it because we had some polls that you did and other people that show i would have done well. but i just love real estate. i love building buildings. you said you heard i was going to run in 2004. i hadn't heard that one one. >> no, you were quoted. we dug up about a old quote there was an old quote that said you'd take a look at it in 2004. here's what you said. i continue to be interested in the political process and cannot rule out a possible candidacy in 2004 that was you in february 2000. >> that was a long time ago. i hadn't heard that in a long time. i never did run and i probably never will run. >> take a listen to his answer on the same interview on who he would vote for in hypothetical matchups between the clintons and potential opponents there is a special appearance here by someone who now plays a prominent role in his legal defense. let's watch.

what about bill clinton against mike bloomberg next time. can he win the mayor's race if he goes for it, the former president? >> well, mike is really working hard, and i think he is doing a great job. and bill clinton is not going run. and bill just join mid golf club, and i like him very much. i like him anyway beyond golf clubs. but he is not going to be running. rudy versus hillary in 2008. >> that's going to be a very interesting one. you're talking the presidential. and that will certainly be an interesting one. and that could happen. i don't predict a winner, but that could certainly happen. >> you don't have a favorite? who would you vote for, hillary or rudy? >> don't ask me that question. don't ask me that question. >> a major point of contention throughout the 2016 campaign was donald trump's position on the iraq war. candidate trump repeatedly said he had been opposed to the war before the invasion and often took credit for saying he knew it would destabilize the region. but back in november of 2003, he actually called on president bush to stay the course. it's a war his current national

security adviser john bolton helped orchestrate. let's watch the interesting exchange. >> this was an elective war. the president thought we had to do it. he made a judgment call. he took us into iraq. do you think he will reconsider that judgment as the costs rise? >> i don't think he is going to. he is a very committed guy. he is committed to that whole situation. and i don't think he will really reconsider. i don't think he can at this point. other people will. and you're going to find out at the polls whether or not those people are right. you see more and more doves, if you call them doves. the question is whether or not we should have been in iraq in the first place. i don't think that this president can do anything about that. he is really -- he is on a course that has to stay. >> much more to come from my interviews over the years with donald trump, including what trump thinks makes a good leader. why we elect the presidents we do, and the news-making interview we had at height of the 2016 campaign. this is a special edition of "hardball," 20 years of trump.

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our special edition of "hardball," 20 years of trump, will continue in a minute, including that interview i did with him during the 2016 campaign when he knocked himself off his game. you're watching "hardball," where the action is. it took guts to start my business.

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ithe race for governort. has turned into a scam. gavin newsom's trying to elect a republican who was endorsed by trump. and villaraigosa's being bankrolled by a handful of billionaires. it's everything that's wrong with politics. and none of it is helping struggling families. here's my pledge to you. i'll keep our budget balanced. invest in affordable housing. fight for universal healthcare. and stand up to donald trump. as governor, you can trust me to do what's right- because i always have.

welcome back to this special edition of "hardball," 20 years of trump. the year 2004 was a turning point in donald trump's career as celebrity businessman given the debut of his reality show, "the apprentice." i spoke with him the day the show premiered. when you fire these people, it's not the same as firing somebody, or is it, in real life? >> it's not much different, chris, to be honest. it's -- you know, over the years, i fired unfortunately a lot of people. and you can do it nice. you can do it easy. you can take your time. i've taken months and months to fire people. and in tend -- or you can do it viciously and quickly and "you're fired." in the end, it doesn't matter. when you fire somebody, they hate you. >> when trump came back in september to promote the second season of the hit show, i asked about the upcoming presidential election. his thoughts on george bush

versus john kerry, campaign politics and the war in iraq. let's watch. >> economically, what is the impact of a government that decides to borrow a war, basically, to pay for it later? fight now, pay later of? >> look, i don't think it's positive. there are other places, if you look at north korea, if you look at -- frankly, if the united states used that as a launching base to go into iran and clean out some of their nuclear problems, maybe all of the sudden i'd start to say that was a great move because we ought to look at iran and we ought to look at north korea, what they're doing with nuclear weapons. >> let me ask you about this choice people make. what kind of a choice is it? historically, a reelection campaign has been distinctive from a regular presidential campaign because you basically have a track record of a guy for four years. is this really what it's about? if a guy has done a good job, keep him. if he hasn't, dump him. or it is a key choice we face like in other races? >> i think it's a key question of both. some people love bush.

it really is both. people love him and the job he has done and other people can't stand him and the job he has done. and people are very mixed on kerry. and i will tell you this. i sat through the convention in new york, and they did a great job, the republicans. but maybe the greatest spin i've ever seen on anything is it's almost coming out that bush is a war hero and kerry is not. i think that could be the greatest spin i've ever seen. >> because? >> the whole thing with the swift boat group, which is obviously being done by bush and bush's people happened to be brilliant. they've taken all of that war hero thing away from kerry and they've almost given it to bush. and bush, frankly, was not serving. that we know. >> let me ask you about perhaps what you might call unnecessary roughness in politics. this week, dick cheney, the vice president, a very tough guy said that if we elect, the american people elect kerry, that we're basically going to face ourselves with the threat of a devastating attack. he is saying vote democrat, you're going to get attacked. >> well, it's a terrible statement unless he gets away

with it. but the other side doesn't seem to be hitting very hardt. the republicans are hitting much harder than the democrats. it's a terrible statement unless, you know -- let's see how the other side handles it. but already after two days, i haven't seen much handling. >> it's a terrible attack because you're saying because it means that you believe the other side just by its election would endanger the country? >> just take a look at that whole premise. 9/11 happened during the bush administration. why doesn't somebody attack it? i'm not taking sides. i'm just saying it's amazing. he made that statement two or three days ago, and i haven't heard anything to knock him. it's really amazing when you think of it. >> if you were the corner man -- i know the contender is coming, the program you're going to be producing. if you were a corner man for kerry right now, what would you tell him to do? quit? change? get tough? be visceral, be spontaneous, be something you're not? how can you change this guy to a winner? >> look, i know him. he is a very capable guy.

and frankly, every election he is losing until the end. that's the one thing you have to remember about him. he was losing the primary and he ended up winning easily. if you go back four weeks before the primary, he was out of it. people weren't even talking about him, and he ended up winning. he was also losing for the senate to governor weld, and it was not even going to be a contest. he had 30% of the vote to 70%, and he ended up killing him. the guy has a way of coming back. don't just think he is going away. he is a very capable guy. but the republicans so far have just been decimating the democrats. and i think kerry has to go out and do his thing, and he is fine at it. he has won lots of elections. but it's very interesting. he has come from behind on many elections. >> why is he putting out even now a confusing position on iraq? >> well, i think the whole campaign so far, as far as i'm concerned, has been confusing. he ought to say something. and frankly, i think what people really want to hear is we're going to get out thereof as quickly as possible. i think that's what people want to hear. >> you mean you don't think they

care whether he is for the war or not? that seems unclear as hell right now. >> so many things can happen. i was asking somebody today, why can't they find a 6'6" arab named osama bin laden? he is 6'6". he's on a dialysis machine supposedly. >> right. >> and we can't find him? and then you see him on television all the time. they can't track him? if i'm on television, they track me. if you're on television that. >> track. we can't track this guy? no. if bush found him prior to the election, the election is won, then i would tell kerry you might as well give it up because the election is won. so a lot of things can happen that can inure both positive and negative to both party. >> after the 2004 election, i asked trump about his take on the economy, and i got a look at how he would handle one government program if he were president. let's talk about the economy. i want to ask you, i only got a couple of minutes left here, don. i want to ask you about the three big concerns i have, as one of the many americans worried about the economy, the dollar. are you worried about them letting it tip too low on the

world market? >> well, the dollar is keeping the economy good in a sense because people are coming to new york, as an example. they're buying apartments in new york. they're using the hotels. the dollar, it's a horrible word when they say the low dollar, the cheap dollar. it's a terrible word to use. but the fact is it happens to bring a lot of business into this country. >> but it's great to travel in this country. it's a terrible situation to travel overseas with, right? >> that's right. but it keeps people here. so i'm not sure that's so bad. >> you're not worried there will come a time when the people lending us money from the far east say i don't like the value of the dollar anymore. i'm getting out. and then we're in a big trouble with a bang run basically on u.s. paper. >> i don't see it happening. this is one country that it's just not going to happen. to having the dollar where it's a reduced value a little bit, it sounds terrible and you hate to say it, but the fact is it brings business, and it's actually good in terms of what we all do. >> so you expect they'll keep this policy? >> i think they're going to keep the policy. i think the dollar is probably going to inch up a little bit. and that's not so bad.

but, you know, the worst times we've had is when you had a very strong dollar. nothing came in at all. and having a strong dollar, it turned out to be it sounds good that one sounds great. but nothing happens good for the country. >> what about when you compound the situation by a big long-term boring situation in addition to the couple billion -- we're borrowing about $600 billion a year. what happens when the money we'll have to borrow for social security in the form of individual accounts that means big short-term deficits for the federal budget. does that take us over the tipping point with regard to the value of the dollar? all that borrowing? >> well, we've had the deficits before, and we're going have them again, and we're going to have them for a while. the war is certainly costsing a tremendous amount of money. far more than anyone ever would have thought. the key is as long as interest rates stay low, chris. if interest rates stay low, we're going to be find. if interest rates go up and the dollar goes up, that is a really devastating combination. >> how do you avoid rising

interest rates if you double the borrowing with the new social security plan? >> it is really amazes. i've been asking that for the last year or so. the fact is the rates are still very low. they continue to be low, and i'm very happy about it. i can tell you about it, the real estate industry, so many different industries, if rates go up, they're going to collapse. and it's not going to be good. so if we can keep the dollar pretty much where it, even little bit higher is fine, and interest rates keep low, we're going to be in good shape. >> you're not afraid this isn't just another bubble situation where it doesn't go wrong until it does go wrong and then it's really bad? >> chris, don't forget. at some point it always goes wrong, you know. no matter where, no matter when, it always goes wrong. we've been riding something very good and very strong for a long period of time. at some point, things will happen, and they won't be pleasant. and you know what? we'll get out of them and it will be all right. >> if you were president of the united states, would you push individual requirement retirement accounts for social security? >> i sort of think i would. something has to be done. social security is a huge problem right now funding it, and something is going to have

to be done. it's going to have to be done very quickly, actually. they're moving on different methods. but something is going to have to be done rather quickly. >> in 2005, trump was back. this time to promote his plan for the world trade center site. he had some harsh words for the planned freedom tower now called one world trade center. >> will you lead a coalition to stop governor pataki from his strong support for the freedom tower? >> well, there is not much of a role i can't take. it all started when "the new york post" called me and asked my opinion. i'm the biggest developer in new york by far. i've done just about everything you can do in the world of real estate. and i see what's happening down there. it's a mess. the developer is actually a friend of mine, but he didn't want to build this building either. when you look back at the records, when it was first foisted upon him, larry silverstein, he is a good guy, but he didn't want to build this pile of junk. up next, what fueled his political rise. his wholehearted embrace of

birtherism. plus, one of the rare times trump was cornered in an interview when i pushed him on the red-hot issue of abortion. this is "hardball," where the action is. overwhelming air fresheners can send you running... so try febreze one. with no aerosols and no heavy perfumes. so you can spray and stay.

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claim that obama wasn't born in the united states. as he campaigned for president in 2015 and 2016, trump refused to disavow his past comments. after republican primary debate, i pressed him on the topic. let's watch. >> okay. i want to ask you a last question before you leave. you can leave, but i'd like you to stay. is donald trump honest when he says that barack obama is an illegitimate president? it's a good question because it's my question. >> i didn't say you couldn't. >> you can't stop me. >> because i -- no, i can't. i should not tell you, but i do watch you a lot. so i knew you were going to ask that question. you know what i say? i don't talk than anymore. you know -- by the way, this guy, this guy is a the top of third professional. i have to tell you. i don't answer because you know what? if i do answer, that's all people want to talk about. >> the general election, you're going have to answer in a general election. you're going to take the oval office -- >> i don't answer that question because once i answer the

question, they don't want to talk about the dmacheconomy. >> we catholics believe in confession you. say you're wrong and you move on. you really believe this guy is an illegitimate president? >> i don't want to answer the question. i don't want to answer the question. did you have a good time? was it a good interview? >> what, this? well, i've watched you for a longer time. but thank you, mr. trump. >> we'll do it again. >> mr. trump, i think it's a blemish. >> i know how you feel. >> i think our president should be respected. and i think there is a little ethnic at speck to it. i don't like it. he is african american and we're saying he is not a real president. i don't like that. it's not a good thing about you. but you're a mixed bag and we're allowed to say you're a mixed bag. >> i understand. have a good time. thank you very much. >> in march of 2016, candidate trump joined me for a "hardball" college tour. early on, i asked about his plan to fight terrorism and his very controversial call to ban muslims from coming to the united states. >> let's talk about isis. its number one concern of a lot

of people since last week. >> right. >> how do you beat people -- when we fought the germans or the italians, you know, the army puts their hands up at the end because they know it's hopeless. >> right. it's called uniforms. >> how do you fight people who wrap themselves in dynamite. they get up, brush their teeth in the morning, shave i guess in some case, they go off to the airport where the idea of blowing themselves up, killing themselves that morning. how do you beat an army like that? this gets down to something that we haven't dealt with before in our history. >> we have to be so tough and so vigilant. and we to do things that we frankly have never done before. >> but they want to die for their cause. >> maybe they do and some of them do. you know, a lot of people are trying to figure out why they do this, how they do this. >> they're recruited. >> are they drugged out? >> they're recruited. >> are they drugged out when they do it. what's going on when they walk in and blow themselves up. are they all drugged out? is somebody drugging them? there is a lot of things going on. and, you know, when i talked web have to be very careful because we have people coming into this

country, it's a very bad situation. we have thousands and thousands of people coming into our country. we have no idea where they come from, who they are. >> but oftentimes its second or first generation. it's not the first wave of immigrants. these people in belgium had been living there. they were born there. they're belgians. how do you deal with that situation? >> well, look at the guys in boston. >> they were here. >> they came here as young kids and became radicalized. >> does banning their entry into the country even temporarily encourage them to be on our side against the terrorists or encourage them to be on the other side? >> i think banning until we figure out what's going on is an important thing. i take a lot of heat for it. a lot of people like me for it to be honest. but chris, there is something going on. it's really bad. >> but there is 1.6 trillion muslims in the world and the message from donald trump stay out of my country how. does that encourage them to fight isis? how does that encourage them to fight the bad guys? they have a problem too. saying what you are doing is a great thing, not a bad thing.

>> are any muslims telling you that? >> i have, actually, believe it or not, have a lot of friends that are muslim. and they call me, in most cases they're very rich muslim. >> they'll come in? >> they'll come in. >> how will you let them in? >> chris, the san bernardino situation, many people saw that apartment with bombs all over the apartment. >> i agree with that. if you see something, say something. >> not one person, all the people who said it's racial profiling. that's why they didn't call. you know why said that? some lawyer said you saw this. you better come up with a good excuse. they said it's racial profiling. a lot of people saw what was going on in that apartment. not one muslim -- >> i'm with you on this. of course i'm with you. but that's not the question. >> why didn't they report them? chris, why don't they report them? >> you say ban them from entering the country. they get the message. everyone in the world, 1.6 -- in indonesia, pakistan, albanian, anywhere there is muslims, you know you don't want them. they get the message. they're a little more -- they're ill disposed to fight isis a

little bit more once they say the americans don't even like us. >> maybe they'll say we want to come back into america, we got to solve this problem. i'm serious than. >> cruz, your guy, he wants patrol cars driving up neighborhoods think muslim people are working there looking there the windows for plotting. it's an insane idea. these aren't street criminals. they plotting bombings. that will make them more militant against us. >> he is toughening up his stance because my stance. >> what the you think of his stance? patrol cars. >> i think we have to look at the mosques. we have to be extremely careful. we're looking at a lot of things -- we're making enemies by doing nothing. we're knocking down world trade centers. we're shooting planes into the pentagon. probably the other plane was going toward the white house. you had some very brave people. but what are we going to do? just sit back and say we want to be nice to everybody? we can't be so nice. >> given president trump's decision to rip up the iran nuclear deal and pursue a separate agreement with north

korea, his past views on nuclear weapons are relevant. back in 2016, he told me he wouldn't rule out using a nuclear weapon as president, even in europe. let's watch. >> your most controversial suggestion was don't take nuclear weapons -- you may have been hooked into this by a press question. >> don't take what? >> don't take nuclear weapons off the table. have i been trying to think how we could conceivably use a nuclear weapon in the middle east or europe in fighting isis. and why put it on the table or leave it on the table if you can't imagine where to use it. >> i didn't say don't take it. i would be very, very slow and hesitant to pull that trigger. >> why did you say i don't want to talk it. presidents don't talk about use of nuclear weapons. >> we were talking about nato which by the way is obsolete. >> you got hooked into something you shouldn't have talked about. >> well, some day, maybe. >> maybe? where we would drop a nuclear weapon in the middle east? >> let me explain. somebody hits us with -- >> isis. >> you wouldn't fight back with a nuke? >> to drop a nuclear weapon into a community of people. >> chris, what you don't want to say take everything off the table because you're not a good

negotiator if you do that. >> just nuclear. >> look, nuclear should be off the table. but would there be a time when it could be used? possibly, possibly. >> the trouble when you heard that, the whole world, david cameron in britain. the japanese. they heard the guy running for the united states talking of maybe using nuclear weapons. nobody wants to hear that about an american president. >> then why are we making them? >> because the old mutually assured destruction which reagan hated and tried to get rid of. >> i would be the last one to -- >> can you tell the middle east we're not using a nuclear weapon. >> i would never say that i will not take any of my cards off the table. >> how about europe? >> i'm not taking it off the table. >> you might use it in europe? >> no, i don't think so. >> i'm just saying. >> i'm not taking cards off the table. >> the trump administration has pleased social conservatives with a hard-line agenda on abortion. during that 2016 "hardball" town hal, the future signaled the direction he would take when he said women who have abortion should receive some form of punishment. it began with a question from a

young woman in the audience. >> what is your stance on women rights and their right to choose in their own reproductive health. >> okay, well, look. as you know, i am pro-life. i think you know that. and with exceptions, the three exceptions. but pretty much that's my stance. is that okay? you understand? >> what should the law be on abortion? >> well, i have been pro-life. >> i know your principle. that's a good value. but what should be the law? >> they've set the law. and frankly, the judges -- i mean, you're going to have a very big election coming up for that reason. because you have judges where it's a real tipping point. >> i know. >> and with the loss of scalia who was a very strong conservative, this presidential election is going to be very important. because when you say what's the law, nobody know what's the law is going to be. it depends on who gets elected because somebody is going to appoint conservative judges and somebody is going to appoint liberal judges. >> i know. i've never understood the pro-life position because i understand the principle. it's human life as people see

it. >> which it is. >> what crime it is? >> well, it's human life. >> should the woman be punished for having an abortion? >> look -- >> this is not something you can dodge. if you say abortion is a crime or abortion is murder you have to deal with it under the law. should abortion be punished? >> well, people in certain parts of the republican party and conservative republicans would say yes, they should be punsd. >> how about you? >> i would say that it's a very serious problem, and it's a problem that we have to decide on. it's very -- >> but you're for banning it. >> wait. are you going to say put them in jail? is that what you're talking about? >> you say you want to bab it. what does that mean? >> i am pro-life, yes. >> how do you ban abortion? how do you actually do it? >> you know, you'll go back to a position like they had where people will perhaps go to illegal places. >> yeah. >> but you have to ban it. >> you ban it and they go to somebody who flunked out of medical school risks you catholic? >> yes. >> then how do you feel about the catholic church's position? >> i accept the teaching authority of my church on moral

issues. >> but do you know their position on abortion? >> yes, i do. >> and do you concur with that position? >> i concur with their moral but legally -- here is my question. it's not funny any. >> it's really not funny. what do you say about your church? >> the churches make their moral judgments. but you running for president of the united states will be chief executive of the united states. do you believe in punishment for abortion, yes or no, as a principle? >> the answer is that there has to be some form of punishment. >> for the woman? >> yeah. there has to be some form. >> ten cents, ten years? what? >> that i don't know. >> why not? you take positions on everything else. >> i do take positions on everything else. it's a very complicated position. >> but say bluntly you want to ban it. >> but the catholic church -- >> i'm not talking about my religion. >> no, no. i am talking about your religion. you're a very, very good catholic. >> i'm not saying i'm a very good catholic. what should a woman face if she is going to have an abortion?

>> i'm not going to do that. >> you schedule you're pro-life. >> i am pro-life. >> that means ban abortions. >> and so is the catholic church pro-life. >> this isn't spain. we don't control -- the church doesn't control the government. >> what is the punishment under the catholic church? >> let me give you something from the new testament. render under to caesar the things that are caesar's and to god the things that are god's. don't ask me about my religion. >> i am pro-life. >> what does that mean? >> i am pro-life. i have not determined what the punishment would be. >> why not? >> because i haven't determined it. >> when you decided to be pro-life you should have thought of it. no. you can ask anybody. >> if you don't have a punishment for abortion, i don't believe in it of course, people are going to find a way to have an abortion. >> you don't believe in what? >> i don't believe in punishing anybody for an abortion. of course not. it's a woman's choice. >> so you're against the teachings of your church? >> i have a view and a moral view. but i believe we live in a free country. and i don't live in a country that is so fascistic that it

could stop a person from having an abortion. that would be so invasive that i wouldn't be familiar with it and donald trump, you wouldn't be familiar with a society like that. >> but you're speaking so highly about your religion and your church. >> yeah. >> your church as you know is very, very strongly pro-life. what do you say to your church? >> i say i accept your moral authority. in the united states, the people make the decisions. the courts rule on what's in the constitution, and we live by that. that's what i say. >> but you don't live by it because you don't accept it. you can't accept it. you can't accept it. you can't set up. >> can we go back to matters of the law and running for president? because matters of the law what i'm talking about, and this is the difficult situation you placed yourself in. how do you ban abortion without some kind of sanction? then you get in that very tricky question of a sanction. a fine? on human life, which you call murder? a fine? imprisonment for young woman who finds herself pregnant? >> it will have to be determined. and it hasn't been determined. >> what about the guy who got

her pregnant? is he responsible under the law or is he not responsible for an abortion decision? >> it has different feelings, different people. i would say. no. >> they're usually involved. >> when we return, let me finish with trump watch. you're watching a special edition of "hardball," 20 years of trump. sometimes, bipolar i disorder can make you feel unstoppable. but mania, such as unusual changes in your mood, activity or energy levels, can leave you on shaky ground.

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trump watch, monday, may 28th, 2018. as you can see, watching donald trump over the years, he is as much today as he was before,

peripatetic, jumping lightly from one topic to another, engaged on national topics, but only to a degree. when it comes to issues of national life, he spread himself widely, if not deeply. and what you don't get from him is the sense he has shown the patience or had the interest to dig into the consequences of his positions or to absorb the trade-offs that come with them. that said, you can spot the ambition, that unique human ingredient that separates those who achieve the american presidency who from those who make a try for it. as we americans take this presidency to heart and look to its endurance, this factor of ambition is dangerous to overlook, because as it was this the electoral success of donald trump, so would be to the success of who comes to challenge him, the man or woman who stands on the stage with trump in 2020 may need one undeniable human attribute, an ego able to challenge him, not just an intellect or in the national interest, but in the

moment. he or she will have to look him in the eye and take him down, face-to-face, matching him point for point, hopefully with the added weapon of the truth. and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. join me again tomorrow night at 7:00 eastern. see you then. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. pretty much every day this year has brought new and dramatic stories about the presidency of donald j. trump, the investigation into the president and his allies, and the white house's ongoing attacks on the rule of law. tonight in a trio of interviews with some of the central figures in the story line, beginning with my latest conversation with former trump foreign policy adviser carter page, a man who famously admitted for the very first time on this program last year that he did indeed meet with russian ambassador sergey kislyak during the 2016 republican national convention. >> i'm just trying to get a straight answ