that does it for "the beat." i will be in for lawrence o'donnell on the last word" at 10:00 p.m. "hardball" starts now. the road to singapore. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. here's where things are headed this friday night. we've got the latest but who knows how long this latest is going to hold. trump's headed to singapore right now. now he says he never wasn't. samantha bee is getting line under with rose anne barr before

a wright right wing firing squad. it looks like mueller is still hot on the collusion trail. finally, is donald trump planning to pardon himself out of all his russian business? let's start with trump's bromance with despotic north korea. is this power in this case kim jong-un's the greatest after froe fro december yak. senior north korean officials spent about an hour and 20 minutes inside the oval office. there he is meeting with president trump. kim alcohol delivered a personal letter from kim jong-un. afterwards, president trump and mike pompeo posed for photos outside with the north korean delegation. the result trump announced the summit in singapore was officially back on. he sounded an upbeat note about it. let's watch him. >> i didn't cancel the meeting. i canceled it in response to a

very tough statement and i think we're over that, totally over that. and we're going to deal and we're going to start a process. we're meeting with the chairman on june 12th. and i think it's probably going to be a very successful, ultimately a successful process. we'll see. remember what i say. we will see what we will see. i don't want to use the term maximum pressure anymore. i don't want to use that term because we're getting along. you see the relationship. it's not a question of max makeup pressure. it's staying essentially the way it is. at some point for the good of millions of people, a deal will be worked out. can you believe we're talking about the ending of the korean war? you're talking about 70 years. i think it's going to be a great success. we'll see what happens. >> the white house first announced in march trump agreed to meet with kim jong-un. from then to today, the path has been erratic.

>> north korea, kim jong-un, would like to meet with president trump. >> things have changed radically from a few months ago. you know the name calling and a lot of other things. >> do you deserve to. >> everyone thinks so but i would never say into if you look at that model with gadhafi, that was a total decimation. we went in there to beat him. that model would take place if we don't make a deal most likely. if we make a deal, i think kim jong-un is going to be very, very happy. >> based on the recent statement of north korea, i have decided to terminate the planned summit in singapore on june is 12th. >> we'll be meeting on june 12th in singapore. it went well. >> white house reporter ashley parker is a political analyst and vice president for national security at third way mieke eoyang. thank you for joining us. what happened today? >> well, what happened was

basically a top envoy from north korea went to the white house, delivered this sort of oversized personal letter that the president may or may not have read depending which version of his you believe. it started the ball back rolling to a summit that despite harsh language about a week or so ago, no one including in the white house ever believed was 100% off. >> what is this meeting going to be? it was to get rid of their nuclear weapons. now the president says it's going to be a get acquainted meeting, just lunch? it's not a big deal like dinner. he's lowering the bar what they expect. it's a familiar -- go ahead, mieke. >> every time he talks about this, he's lowering expectations about what we're going to get. he's not actually trying to negotiate to address the real security threats that face america. he's no longer talking about the ballistic missiles or reducing the nuclear weapons. he's talking get to know you. it feels more like an eighth

grade romance than and international summit on nuclear weapons. >> what can we expect from it? it seems there's a danger if nothing happens, nothing is going to be pretty clearly nothing. if you walk out of the door in singapore, i don't know if they're having this at ralphs or where, they'll have a meeting and come out of it in a couple of hours. my concern as an american, i'm clearly -- this is a nonpartisan thing at this point. my question is, we went into panmunjom in the summer of '51 and didn't get out. the north koreans like to talk because it brings us down to their level. they conduct their missile testing while they're talking. > the first challenge is the president is going into this without a reframework for what they hope to get out of this, what the goals are, what the expectations are according to people they've talked to, they have nothing. that said, the president basically again, he wants the win. he wants the deal. it's very unclear what exactly

that looks like. if he does fly all the way over there and they have a meeting, it's hard to imagine him walking out without anything although it remains to be seen if that thing is something real and tangible or a victory, something he can announce and nothing happens. >>'s that trouble maker john bolton? he's saying they've got to get rid of not just nuclear, biological, chemical. he's trying to reduce them to ashes. he doesn't want to negotiate with anybody. he wants to destroy them. >> he's about unilateral surrender of your opponents. he wants them to give up everything and we give nothing. he's using language that trump himself has walked away from. bolton started talking about this libya example where libya gave up nuclear weapons but gadhafi was dragged through. >> he's never apologized for iraq or libya or any of that stuff. >> he can't see the way that resonates with the north

koreans. >> common sense the libyan model means you end up in a sewer pipe with people destroying your body afterwards for their own joy. that's a nice concept. at first trump told the press that the let delivered from kim jong-un was interesting. watch him say that. >> this was a meeting where a letter was given to me by kim jong-un and that letter was very nice letter. oh, would you like to see what was in that letter. would you like it? how much? how much? how much. it was a very interesting letter. at some point, it may be appropriate. maybe i'll be able to give it to you. you'll be able to see it. >> is he like carnac on johnny carson, he can see in the nfl he said it's very interesting. a few minutes later he said he hasn't read it. watch him there. >> i haven't seen the letter yet. i purposely didn't open the letter. i haven't opened it. i didn't open it in front of the

director. i said would you want me to open it. he said you can read it later. i may be in for a big surprise, folks. >> an hour later, keep up with this guy, the white house told nbc news that the president has now read the letter and there were "no surprises," but was there interesting in the letter that he hadn't read that he said was interesting? >> well, if you believe him and i'm inclined to believe his second explanation that he had not actually read the letter. >> there was none of the snottiness in the last communique from kim jong-un? >> it's hard to imagine there was because that's what caused him to call the whole thing off. so again, you sort of got sense the president is a top line guy. there's a different president who might have been pouring over the letter, every come marks every word before he went out and made a statement. that's not donald trump. >> the let me ask you to not be conspiratorial. this is out of your line of work for a second, mieke.

if he says we're now going to meet june 12th, he's got another two weeks with giuliani to play the game they play which is we can't meet to talk about anything to do with the russia probe till we've met with kim jong-un. this gives him a stay of execution for a couple more weeks into it does. i don't think that is the driving force because as you've seen with this president and giuliani, if it wasn't the summit, it would be something else. >> you mean like the tax returns we'll show you when they're audited. >> exactly. they're very good at the public reeses campaign. the summit was a convenient delay tactic. there will always be something else. wanting those documents on so-called spygate for instance. >> trump also said he knows north korea wants to denuclear rise. watch his assumptions here. >> reporter: what's your stance on what the north koreans are willing to do on the issue of denuclearizati

denuclearization? >> i think they want to do. i know they want to do that. they want other things along the line. they want to develop as a country. that's going to happen. i have no doubt. >> mieke, that's the assumption of previous presidents going back to bill clinton and certainly w. the assumption that the north koreans are rational in terms of cost benefit. if their nuclear program was costing them to be isolated from the world, to be impoverished forever, they would choose against it. they haven't been logical that way. just like lbj thought he could buy the north vietnamese with a big economic program like the tva. the people have their own purposes. is north korea interested in a deal. >> i think they are but not for the reasons that donald trump understands it. they view the nuclear weapon as the guarantee of regime stability. they've watched other regimes give up their weapons. >> what do they deal if they can't deal that off? >> that's the question. they have ballistic missiles

that could hit the united states where they could try and keep the weapons and get rid of the delivery. >> so they could only hit japan and south korea. >> which is sufficient. you don't want that to happen. trump does need this period to figure out what his negotiating position is and what they can ask for here. because when the koreans say they're willing to denuclearize, they want the u.s. nuclear capability out of south korea and japan. they don't want us to be able to strike them. >> keep 500 miles away or what? >> they want us out of the region. >> what does that mean. >> how are we in now? >> we're not stationing in japan but have the ability to strike them. they're worried about american military presence. >> how can we remove our ability to hit them with polaris missiles most anywhere in the world. >> we can't. this is the confusion they are playing. > jeanne yusts polaris missile, you never know where the subs are. i don't know whether they're going to know it either.

at least that's something. take away the nuclear umbrella from south korea so they can threaten to attack whenever they want through their tunnels which they're not going to seal off as part of the deal. thank you ashley, mieke. coming up, this is the week the culture wars erupted. roseanne barr first lost her job after a racist tweet. and now president trump wants samantha bee fired for her vile word about his daughter. plus, exclusive new reporting from nbc news on the secret meeting in the seychelles between russians and officials from the united arab be emirates. mueller is still looking for collusion over there. now a close friend of jared kushner is under scrutiny. it just keeps growing this web of russian connections all around the world. donald trump has always shown a willingness to do whatever he has to do to get out of hot water. is he one to use his powers to pardon against any problems

coming his way from the russian probe? it looks like it. michael cohen might look like the fall guy now. there's reason to believe his reputation of being a pit blaul is for real. we'll be joined by a reporter who went up against michael cohen when he faced the intimidation from michael cohen all caught on tape. that's cool for us. this is "hardball" where the action is. you like to be in control. especially when it comes to important stuff. like, say... your car. well good news, the esurance app lets you keep an eye on repairs when your car is in the shop. it's kinda like being there, without being there. which is probably better for everyone. that's insurance for the modern world. esurance. an allstate company. click or call. you wouldn't accept from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances.

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beating expectations. great economic news. the unemployment rate dipped to 3.8%. our professor said you couldn't get below 4.0. larry kudlow confirmed he had briefed trump on the report yesterday evening. trump got early word and used it. kudlow downplayed the significance of the president's tweet. of course, he has to. we'll be right back. at some point, we are going to be able to beat als. because life is amazing. so i am hoping for a cure. i want this, to uh, to be a reality. um, yeah.

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welcome back to "hardball." this was the week the culture wars exploded on television. roseanne barr a supporter of president trump was fired by abc tuesday after sending a racist tweet about a former senior advisor to barack obama. valerie jarrett. barr apologized but suggested there was a political double standard at work to her firing. then on wednesday, the next day, late night host samantha bee used a vulgar word tore describe ivan can trump during a segment

criticizing white house policy on migrant children. a bit of it with a [ bleep ] in it. >> do something about your dad's immigration practices you if he can tlez [ bleep ]. he listens to you. >> bee apologized the next day. cbs which airs her show issued its own apologies but took no action beyond that. today donald trump tweeted why aren't they fire nothing talent samantha bee for the horrible language used on her low ratings show? a total double standard. it was a very different reaction he had earlier in the week to the news abc canceled roseanne. he never said anything about barr's tweet but he took issue with the fact that the chairman of disney personally reached out to jarrett to apologize. trump wrote gee, he never called president donald trump. isn't that like caesar referring yourself in the third person? and said about me on abc. maybe i just didn't get the call. well for more i'm joined by lizz

winstead, co-creator of the daily show, ted johnson, variety, sophia riley and a contributory nbc think where our brains get together. liz, you've been in the business. it seems writing for comedy standing up in front of a brick wall or on television, you have to be like a race driver. race as fast as you can but not get killed which is a tricky business every night of your life. sometimes you get killed. what do you make about the first one, roseanne barr? was that a firing offense from your perspective by abc? was it fair she was knocked out of a comeback career? >> yeah. totally fair. i mean, when you literally out of thin air decide to use something that has been a symbol of dehumanizing imagery and a way to literally make black folks lesser than everyone else. >> lesser species. >> absolutely. when you put that out there, and

that's just horrifying enough. but when abc and roseanne were all doubling down on they wanted to do this reboot of roseanne to really talk about not the racist imagery that so many liberals had been putting forth but to really talk about the disenfranchised economic vulnerable vote voters, you know what and this spews out, it falls in the face of every single reason they said they wanted to reboot the show in the first place. >> worst case scenario for everybody. sophia, what issing about roseanne barr? should she have been canned? >> absolutely. and if we're doing a cop pair son contrast to samantha. >> let's get to that first. ted, was this seen as fair by the world, by you, firing of roseanne barr. >> she's gone now. >> sure. i immediately thought bizarrely enough of going back 30 years to jimmy the greek. he said some racist comments.

>> i think he had three or four glasses of wine for lunch. he talked why african-americans don't get coaching jobs. he said they don't have the necessaries. you know, he was obviously making a statement about iq and all. it was awful and he was finished. howard cosell who was great in so many ways and who made that comment about a monkey, too. there's something in the brain with some of these people. >> it's nothing new that you get fired for saying racist comments. >> people always do. the statement yesterday, the president's spokesperson sarah sanders wrote the language used, the second case, samantha bee last night is vile and vicious. the collective silence by the left and allies is appalling. back to you, liz, the silence of the lambs in this case president trump was overwhelmingly silent. it was deafening the silence. he didn't sajak against roseanne barr and what she said. then they come out, his spokesperson says how silent it is among the left for not going

after -- silence seems to be the deal on both sides. your thoughts? >> i feel like they're two different things. if you're upset about the use of the "c" word, that's a different conversation. what that means. >> what was your reaction? should she be fired for it? >> no, i don't think she should be fired for it. comparing the history of ivanka trump's behaviors towards saying she's an advocate for women and yet standing by silently as the international gag rule is reimposed, as the policy. >> that's a word used. you can live with this. should she be fired, samantha bee? >> i believe she should be fired. i believe roseanne barr should be fired. bee's word is vile in and of itself. for someone in her position with a show and her producers have culpability. this was taped. >> that's one of the bizarre pieces. >> it sets the barlow. >> they all agreed this will

pass muster. >> this is where we are at the lowest common denominator. >> ho defined decency downward? >> donald trump. absolutely. >> break the tie here. >> let me ask you a real reporter's question. ready? will the corporate power structure that decides these things come down on her or not? >> well two, things. the first thing is that if they fire her now, they'll look like they're getting rid of her in response to president trump. that raises a whole other set of issues for the corporation. the second thing. >> you mean like they did with the football players. >> yeah, the corporation will having more criticism. >> here we go. the "washington post" phillip rucker covered trump as a candidate in 2016 tweeted today for what it's worth the word samantha bee used and words such as that was emblazoned on many a t-shirt worn at trump rallies

throughout 2016. donald trump stuff. that word i never saw because i don't think the cameras would focus on it. apparently our producers showed to me. it was prevalent. and trump never complained about it and said you shouldn't use that word. do you want to go back to you, liz. >> i just want to add to that, ted nugent used that word against hillary clinton and was welcome the into the oval office. >> did. >> stop clutching your pearls. >> let's get back to the issue here. >> that was a class statement but it was pretty good. go ahead. without clutching your pearls. >> we have two prom meant women who were comedienne who's had a bad week. the ape comment is a problem for the reasons liz said, that has race are connotations that go back to the slavery issue and how people saw africans at that time that they were less smart, less attractive. >> that was the biblical case for it. they were born as stewards. >> absolutely. so to the question of what should be done, i actually think

that the corporate pressure on tbs that has her, i think they have to get rid of her. abc did the right thing and did it real quick. they didn't hesitate. they cut it off. just like starbucks, they survived what they went through because they were quick into it comes down to constituency. i'm a little bit cynical about this. which constituency? racial, you foobded 20 or 30% of the country right off bat. they're not going to go to disneyland nip, orlando or california. this offends women. >> my other point is, i think a lot depends on who shows up to protest what samantha bee said. i think that. >> it's the constituencies. nobody shows up? >> nobody's going to protest, nobody cares. >> in the caves roseanne barr, abc could have said you can name five different groups that are going to start. >> it was recidivism with susan rice, the same animal connection, the same awful

thing. it goes back to the primordial racism of nature practically in western civilization. it justifies colonialism. liz, thank you, ted johnson, this is a big conversation in this country this weekend. sophia, wisdom, that means wisdom nelson. up next, exclusive reporting from nbc news. mueller is now zeroing in on one of jared kushner's close buddies. he was in the seychelles about the same time that will trump allies held a secret meeting to set up a back channel with the russians. this goes on. this is "hardball" where the action is. new car. nobody's hurt, but there will still be pain. it comes when your insurance company says they'll only pay three-quarters of what it takes to replace it. what are you supposed to do? drive three-quarters of a car? now if you had liberty mutual new car replacement™, you'd get your whole car back. i guess they don't want you driving around on three wheels. smart. with liberty mutual new car replacement™,

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among the many up explained contacts between the president's associates, trump people, and the russians are they would be putin's people was a secret meeting just before trump's inauguration back in january of '17 held in the remote island nation of the seychelles. it was there that erik prince and an informal trump adviser met with crown prince muhammad of the united arab emirates and his adviser george nader as well as with a russian oligarching with close ties to putin himself. the reported purpose was to "to establish a back channel between the incoming administration of donald trump and the kremlin." now nbc news is reporting special counsel robert mueller is scrutinizing another figure

who happened to be, happened to be in the seychelles about the same time as that meeting. according to nbc news, that is figure a new york heng fund manager named rick gerson is a close friend of jared kushner, the president's son-in-law. he is also connected to at least two participants of that meeting about a kremlin back channel. hmm. "while in the remote indian island nation gerson met with prince muhammad also known as mbc and communicated with george nader who organizes the erik prince meeting itself. the development adds a new layer of intrigue to an already strange set of circumstances. s an nbc news reports, mueller's team has asked witnesses about gerson's proximity to the seychelles meeting as well as another meeting it earlier in new york city. a spokesperson told nbc mr. gerson was on vacation in the seychelles prior to the meeting you reference.

he knew nothing about the meeting. however, gerson declined -- his lawyer declined to say whether he has been contacted by mueller. joining me is ken dilanian. ken, you know it has an aspect of you know, connections to kevin bacon, how many degrees of separation. it always -- how many people go to the say shells? does mueller believe it's a coincidence this buddy of kushners happened to be right near that meeting where apparently the back channel with the russians was being set up? >> you and i both know prosecutors don't tend to believe in coincidences and they're scrutinizing this closely. this is a close friend of jared kushner. while there are nice beaches there, it's not an obvious place for an american to go on vacation and to be in text communication with george nader, a very important figure in setting up this apparently back channel. >> i'll be skeptical now. why we have meetings that have occurred beginning in '16 well before the nomination of donald

trump when he was just a candidate, there were meetings, of course, at the mayflower hotel here in washington, the famous one in june at the trump tower. there were meetings the rnc convention, republican convention with kislyak from moscow and all these meetings. the meetings in the senate office of jeff sessions. all of these meetings in public daylight. and then they have to meet in the seychelles with tersetory partners representing each other. why would they be so scared to meet over there if they're walking around in daylight in the united states? >> that's a good question. we know that the say shells is a place where this crown brins of abu dhabi liked to do business, closer to his home turf. erik prince does a lot of business in the middle east may have factored in. the reason mueller is interested is because george nader is cooperating with mueller and is telling him that this was a back channel. this was a way for the russians

to meet with officials in the trump administration or send messages to them about better relations with russia. this is after the election, before trump took office. >> according to nbc's reporting, rick gerson has been friends with kushner for more than a decade. he met at another secret meeting in mid-december right after election. the participants at that meeting included gerson, jared kushner, george nader and the crowns prince of the uae along with trump's national security adviser michael flynn and trump's political adviser steve bannon. what everybody's watching, the experts nobody is like you, ken, let me ask you, as we move towards a declaration of guilt, i expect one from robert mueller. it's going to deal with obstruction. is he still building a heavy body of evidence regarding collusion with the russians? >> it looks like thatting. > subpoenas are going out. even as of a few weeks ago on

the roger stone aspect of potential collusion. he's looking at this now. what we don't know what evidence he's already gathered particularly what donald trump the candidate knew about that trump tower meeting that his son set up. is he still investigating that. the question is, what does he have. >> i'm calling the iceberg. since we were kids, we know the iceberg including the one that sunk the titanic, you only see about 10%. that's why i look at bob mueller's operation. you don't see 90%. >> less about it as time goes on. just the idea that kushner got a security clearance. some people believe that means he's in the clear. other people say that's absolutely not true. >> there's never been any person who looks more like not even god can sink me than donald trump. president trump is brandishing his pardon power and offering the signal to all those ensnared in the mueller probe. is trump looking to pardon his way out of russian probe sflb look at him smiling. of course, he is. this is "hardball" where the

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the president sadie flesh, you've been a great voice for freedom. and he said that i got to tell you man-to-man, you've been screwed. he goes, i've been looking at the case. i knew from the beginning it was fishy. but he said upon reviewing it he felt a great injustice had been done and that using his power he was going to rectify it, sort of clear the slate. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was conservative commentator dinesh d'souza talking about the call he received from president trump last week letting him know that he was being pardoned. trump said d'souza was treated unfairly by the government. sound familiar. >> he gave a similar justification for two other pardons he's weighing one for martha stewart and another for rob blagojovich. trump has used that same languaging about people being screwed by the government talking about his associates now

wrapped up in the mueller probe. here he goes. >> hillary clinton on the fourth of july weekend went to the fbi, not under oath. she lied many times. nothing happened to her. flynn lied and it's like they ruined his life. it's very unfair. >> i've always found paul manafort to be a very decent man. i don't know. i thought that was a very pretty tough stuff. >> mr. president. >> to wake him up, perhaps his family was there. i think that's tough stuff. >> my goal would represent me and represent me on some things. he represents me like with this crazy stormy daniels deal. he represented me and you know, from what i see, he did absolutely nothing wronging. > former trump political adviser roger stone told "the washington post" that trump's recent pardons have to be a signal to mike flynn and paul manafort and robert mueller, indict people for crimes that don't pertain to russian collusion and this could

happen. the special counsel has awesome powers, this is stone talking. but the president has even more awesome paurpz he's bragging how the president can pardon everybody. tim mac from npr, ginger gibson and jonathan lemire from the "associated press." jonathan, it seems to me he's out there showing his stuff. those are practice baskets before an nba game. i can hit from out here and will do it. >> i was on air force one yesterday when he sprung the discussion of pardons on us considering for martha stewart and for governor blagojovich. it does seem like there's a message being sent here. he is suggesting this is part of the presidency that works like he thinks it should. he's been so frustrated with the legislative process, with members of his own staff. >> like a monarchy. >> he can snap his fingers and do which is how he used to run his business. i think he's very comfort

credible. >> why has he been so sparing ginger and only going after a couple people, now dinesh. if he does think he has a clear shot, why not do more of these? >> donald trump campaigned against bad guys, people that were committing grievances against him and against his supporters. he can no longer rail against an administration when he is the administration. so he's finding other bad guys injustice, the criminal justice system, other past grievances against him and his supporterses. he needs a bad guy, otherwise he can't be the tough guy he wants everyone to believe he is. >> is this like deregulating people that are polluters? he basically said they've had a hard time. i'm going to get them. i'm going to free them all. i'm going to free all these people unfairly judged. >> there's a spec reason he may be trying to send a signal but there's a broader reason why it might be sticking. this is a broader feeling in the

conservative movement and amongst trump's base. there's a lot of unfairness from people in positions of power. >> martha stewart is a big deal. she's a bigger deal than most people working for the federal government. not one of the little people. >> but the little people are what they're reacting to is this idea of unfairness amongst our institutions of power. it's not oh, boo who, martha stewart. it's the justice department is against us. big tech is against us. hollywood is against us. >> i'm more political than any of you guys. i'm looking at the categories of people he's let off. scooter libby, mr. neo-con, did i nesh d'souza, arpaio, illegal immigrants, hate them. he seems like he's finding categories of people and giving each iconic representative of each one of the communities, i like all you communities backing me. >> there's three categories certainly, those pardoned people

who have had their causes championed by conservatives, those who have had their causes championed by celebrities like jackson johnson and those on "celebrity apprentice" which is martha stewart and rob blagojovich. >>. >> those are the people he knows. that's the world he knows. those are the folks he wants to send a signal with. there's no question whether 80s flynn, mst or other people in the probe, that's part of this, too. i have this power. >> do you guys agree he will use it to protect himself? if jared kushner is prosecuted will he move immediately, if his son donald junior gets nailed, will he move immediately. >> do you have any doubt in your mind? he might not spring his son-in-law. >> ivanka. >> i think the ivanka line is the red line. that's pretty clear. >> not the son. >> in-law. >> i'm talking about the son eric or donald junior. >> there's a political risk to doing this.

what he do it three months before his own re-electioning? >>ing. > one friday afternoon, he decides he was going to pull back on the birtherism just like that. he said president obama is a united states citizen born in this country. and he had no problem 180ing on everything he had said before. that's to say on a friday afternoon before halloween he just says i'm going to pardon everybody who is in trouble and there will be a lot of squealing for three or four days because mitch mcconnell is going to do anything. the courts aren't going to do anything. why shouldn't i. >> there's a little and legal risk. the backlash you'll get in the short term. >> from us? >> from the press. >> "fox & friends," that supreme court that meets every morning? do you think that crowd. >> there's a legal consequence to this. it could be added to larger evidence about obstruction of justice. >> the supreme court is going to come after trump on pardons? >> not the supreme court. >> if there were a case for

impeachment and obstruction of justice. >> who does trump fear. >> bob mueller. it depends where that investigation stands. if there are parts still outliers standing that that would be a factor here it, i also there. >> pardoning which is a perk of the president, is it self-obstructing? would he do that? >> that's a legal question i don't have the answer to. it's in play. we keep waiting for republicans on the hill to say there's a red line we'll cross. maybe that could be it. >> i think he's willing to do anything when it comes to his family or protecting himself from people like michael flynn or manafort who do know stuff and michael cohen. the roundtable is sticking with us. up next, michael cohen may not look like it, he looks like the fall guy these days. newly published audiotapes show how far he would go to bully people like the guy sitting next to me. you're watching "hardball."

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or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. other side effects include upper respiratory tract infection and headache. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you're pregnant or planning to be. ♪ otezla. show more of you. whereby president trump will flex his pardon power for his long time attorney and fixer michael cohen is an open question. we got an indication how far michael cohen would go to protect president trump. yesterday, npr published explosive audio recordings of cohen threatening a reporter with legal action. let's listen. >> do you think that i'm misinterpreting some of the facts here? >> i know are you. don't be a smart ass with me. do you understand.

>> i'm giving au opportunity. >> i don't need your opportunities, you little [ bleep ]. i know exactly who you are and exactly what you do and i know exactly the story you plan on writing. i'm warning you, tread very [ bleep ] lightly because what i'm going to do to you is going to be [ bleep ] disgusting. do you understand me? don't think you can hide behind your pen its not going to happen. >> look, i'm -- >> i'm more than happy to discuss it with your attorney and with your legal counsel this mother [ bleep ]. >> we, people like michael cohen don't have a large vocabulary. you can probably fill in the words. the reporter on that tape is tim mak, our guest right now. tell me what it was like to hear that over the phone. >> look, let's set the stage here. this is 2015. president trump then candidate trump just starts his presidential campaign. i've never heard of michael cohen. none of us at the table have heard of michael cohen. i reach out to the trump campaign on a story.

i ask him a question. i get an angry call from michael cohen in return. i've never heard of him before. >> what put a bee in his bonnet about you? why was he so hostile. >> trump enters the campaign, he talks about mexican immigrants as criminals and drug dealers. and he refers to some of them as rapists. we're doing some reporting and we dig up this 1993 biography of him. in that book, ivana trump during her divorce proceedings with donald trump says in a sworn deposition that donald trump raped her. and. >> and later she qualified that. >> she later qualified. she didn't mean in a criminal or literal sense and she now supports the president. at the time we reached out to the campaign and hope hicks and said do you have a response to this. michael cohen who doesn't work for the trump campaign, works for the organization calls me back and part of what you hear in that clip just now was what

he said. >> put together the two pictures, that guy. these perp walk pictures back and forth from the courthouse. he looks sad. he looks disappointed in life. yet, you have a tape recording we just heard where he's sort of a bad guy, a bully. which one's real. >> that sort of sad looking guy and this bully that didn't mind wasting you on the phone. >> the question is whether or not michael cohen that's his nature or that's his job. is it his job? did donald trump create an environment at the trump organization where that did not sound like the first time he ever made a legal they're the like that. there have been plenty. >> that's how you goet to be a trump fixer. >> there have been plenty of contentious legal issues michael cohen has had to deal with over the years. it's all famous now that the campaign is over. >> you think avenatti may have heard this kind of talk from him? >> stormy daniels avenatti has said ta michael kean threatened her as part of that nda process.

that's what we reported at npr. >> these three will tell me something i don't know. this is great stuff. it's reporting but eyewitness to history stuff, too. we'll be right back. and a little nervous. but not so much about what market volatility may do to their retirement savings. that's because they have a shield annuity from brighthouse financial, which allows them to take advantage of growth opportunities in up markets, while maintaining a level of protection in down markets. so they can focus on new things like exotic snacks. talk with your advisor about shield annuities from brighthouse financial- established by metlife.

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we're back with the round table. tell me something i don't know tim. >> super interested in the koch brothers funding a democratic senate candidate heidi heitkamp. >> they are. >> they also are putting some mail in other words support of democrats who support their action on daca. i found that interesting. > ginger. >> an issue is getting attention in almost every one of the tough house races is opioids. we have a story coming how it's shaping some races and going to play in some of the competitive districts. >> who is winning, democrats. >> democrats think they're winning and think the aca is the reason they can win on that sniper jeff sessions probe the most embattled cabinet member his job is safe for now. rudy giuliani told me yesterday the president has no desire to fire him. it would abe distraction during

did the russia probe. he said after the probe, that could change. >> tim mak, ginger gibson -- i love the way rudy puts the threats in. when we return lit me finish with what happened 50 years ago next week. you're watching "hardball." ♪ south l.a. is very medically underserved. when the old hospital closed people in the community lived with untreated health problems for years.

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let me finish tonight with this. 50 years ago next week, a 21-car train headed south from the new york to washington. it carried the body of robert f.

kennedy shot at the night he won the california presidential primary. in a sad way that train and the people watching along the tracks marks the loss of a national leader who held the potential because we never know what the future brings to unite this country especially its working people. here's a clip from the msnbc documentary il host this sunday night at 9:00 eastern. >> i was invited to ride the funeral train. just wanted to keep going. you saw people all along the way holding their children. their little babies. and people crying. some people carrying flowers. it was little america on that train. >> when you see the imagery as his body passes on the train, they're wealthy and poor and black and white and they're young and they're old. i think it is amazing how many different types of people that my grandfather touched.

>> headliners robert f. kennedy airs 9:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. it will make you sad and remind what you this country could be. if you haven't yet, check out my book "bobby kennedy a ranging spirit." i consider it a tonic for the trump era. that's "hardball" for now. "all in with chris hayes" start >> tonight on "all in." >> a letter was given to me by kim jong-un. it was a very interesting letter. >> president trump agrees to meet an adversary without precondition. >> i haven't seen the letter yet. i purposely didn't open the letter >> while spurning america's allies. >> there are allies but they take advantage of us economically. >> tonight how donald trump is turning america's relationship with the world upside down. then. >> it's important that were serving in this capacity that everyone is a good steward of