is iowa. vaughn, please tell dennis thank you very much from us here and thank you as always for your hard work. really appreciate it. that wraps it up this hour r me. thanks for watching. "deadle with e wall w. >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. who framed donald trump? by rudy giuliani's telling today, special counsel robert mueller's team of career professionals are out frame the president. >> they are a group of 13 highly partisan democrats that makeup the mueller team, excluding him, are trying very, very hard to frame him, to get him in trouble when he hasn't done anything wrong. >> the news cycle is dizzying, but stop for a second and let at sinkin. donald trump and his allies who road a pirate ship to the highest office in the land are accusing a of prosecutors and investigators who have served under democratic and republican presidents of framing

the president. robert mueller and his team have already secured 19 indictments and guilty pleas, but uliamment with the president's increasingly harsh attacks on the fbi may sig the start of an even more combative public campaign against the special counsel investigation. the president starting his day with this tweet. wow, strzok-page the incompetent and corrupt loafers have texts dating way back to december 2015. spygate is in full force. is thenstrea mia interest yet? big st not to suggest for a minute that i speak for the mainstream media, mr. president, but even your pals at fox news have debunked your phony spygate conspiracy. but here we are. joining us to discuss theday's developments some of our favorite reporters and friends mike schmidt reporter for "the new york times" paul butler former federal prosecutor now georgetown law profeor. bet betsy woodruff reporter for the daily beast.

in washington, couldn't get him here, jonathan swan political reporter for axios. let me start with you, paul butler. the idea that bob mueller who years, his term was extended worked for democrats and fbi directors do, would be leading a team trying to frame the prt of the united states. that seems to be outlandish even in tse outlandish times. >> yeah, and if you're political, for the record, he's a republican as is his boss rod rosenstein. so what this is about is attacking the prosecution i guess because they feel like they don't have another defense. and seally their defense is this extraordinahat nothing the president could do would constitute obstruction of justice, and that he has the ability to pardon himself. so, they're trying to poison the well. it's really the tv lyer, rudy gi is doing job, but e scary thing is it's working

with a certain set of people. so now i think polling shows a majority of people think it's time for the investigati wrap up. there are political concerns seept it and so there's a we can sayheac are sleazy, they're inappropriate for the president because he's attacking our democratic institutions and the rule of law. but if all you care about is your own partisan defense, avoiding impeachment, you don't care about the good of the country, it might be effective. >> do you think that's where they are, that all they care about is avoiding impeachment? i've heard that they' not even that worried about impeachment. they looked at bill clinton's approval numbers during impeachment. they feel donald trump does good in a fight. they're worried about the senate. >> they think it's a political problem. they aren't worried the president is going to go to or some conspiracy theory. what they're worried is the political impact of theindings of the mueller probe.

they know that that has the potential to be explosive. and in the most immediate lens what they're specifically worried about is psili of the psident sitting down for an interview with rober.ieft ia is coming out so strongly against the mueller team, increasingly strongly the past few months, this i think is the most pointed criticism he's had of mueller to date. i think a big part of the reason for that is they're trying to lay the groundwork publicly for explaining why they end up not wanting to do an interview with mueller. flood is responsible for overseeing the way the white house responds to the investigation, i was told by a source the first day that he started in the white house that he was going to likely be a strong voice against having the president sit down for an interview with mueller. >> and the president'frnds on tell vilgs say that publicly rudy giuliani i think in response to your story over the weekend said to george stephanopoulous who caught some lie that was revealed through your reporting, that's why the president can never sit for an

interview. rudye telling us the most information so far about just how vulnerable the president is to perjuring himself if he sits for an interview and maybe on the facts in the obstruction investigation. >> i think that lawyers say when they don't have good facts they argue the law and when they don't have the law against them, either facts. we see them throwing everything they can at mueller. theaze tre are problems on the factual side. they realize there are legal issues and there are things accused of. so,hr eg you n and here we are talking about it. we're talking about these accusations that mueller is on a witch hunt coming from rudy and him pushing as hard as he can. and that will seep in and they think the more that that happens, the likely they are to not have a problem in the house of representatives. >> but do you think they know they have a legal problem? rudy has been around long enough to know they have a problem on the question of obstruction of justice either around the sessions treatment, around the comey firing, or around the threats to fire mueller. >> i don't know if he's given it

that much thought, but i think that he -- i think the president realized that he only had one has ce and the president only giuliani was the right person do that. and he has been very effective at that. the question is are they just getting easy points here in the third quarter that won't matter in the end? or are they actually doing lasting wl keep the president protected? and i can't tell at this point. >> jonathan swan, do you get the sense from your sources at the hous that everyone has ceded the legal argument that everyone believes the president will be found guilty on some of these questions of obstruction of justice, or do you think they are still fighting a legal fight? >> oh, i don't think they have stated that at all. the memo which michael and his esroke, albeit somewhat changed legal team, john dowd is no longer there,

but the interpretation, i have no indication thathey don't believe that legal argument. the real question is are they actually going to follow through on any of this and the answer is no because they all think that should the president self-pardon or shod the interpret it in this maximalist fashion, congress would likely impeach.i of d really about their legal interpretation internally. if there is, i'm not aware of it. >> do you think that there is any disagreement? i've heard that there are a lot of people who have not buyer's remorse, but a lotf regrets about how for coming and cooperative ty cobb -- >> 100%, 100%. that's where the tension lies. and i've not spoken to emmet flood, but somebody who is close estar this me that if he was in never would have happened, that he never would have given up executive privilege, let be people like don mcgahn talk to

mueller and who knows how many leads provided to mueller. that is something that people regret, the st of open willingness to cooperate definitely. that's a different question, that's a different question, though. that's a different question from do they believe the president has the power to pardon himself, do they believe the president can be indict. no, no, they don't believe those things. questn is could they debate. already be in deep enough hot water at this point because of the way they approached it? because of all that mueller already -- mueller is sort of the silent participant in all this, but it's very likely bet jonathan and i were just talking about, because of how much they cooperated, because of don mcgahn has told them, and just about probably more than half of that senior staff has been before bob mueller. do they already know enough? rudy giuliani sounds like he's speaking for a man he believes to be guilty. when he's talking about the presid being, he's ramed of a crime? >> rudy giuliani tv lawyer,

emmet flood real lawyer. from a power house firm, williams and connolly, the kind you go to for a case like this. we should assume behind the scenes he's doing what any defense attorney woulddo, which is to assumehey're out to get your client and you have to protect your client. and he's thinking mainly about indictment after impeachment, impeachment is a concern, but as a defense attorney his main jo job is to keep the client out of jail. so, one thing he's looking -- expected -- i wouldn't say looking forward to, but expecting is a subpoena. because at some point now they're kind of playing around. giuliani especially. we're still trying to decide whether the president is going to go in voluntarily. at some point mueller is going to say, yo, what's up? >> just like that. >> yeah. then it will be subpoena time. >> so, i heard from chris christie who called me when another news organization reported he was being brought in to help the president with

interview s gh it were some sort of presidential campaign debatpr. he said no way am i dngth do youav any sense of where the thinking stands? i mean, there is this school of thought that no way will rudy giuliani or emmet flood let him sit for an interview, but you see reporting they're preparing for one. >> it's been going on six months. they've been talking to mueller about an interview for six months. st what point does mueller say >> a s him. >> time after time the lawyers are saying, we're about to make a decision, we're tenays away, two weeks away, two weeks away, this event, now it's in singapore. you know, they'll wait till after that. i just don't see how at some poelt say,ou know- >> and subpoena him. >> subpoena him. >> remember the decision to subpoena the president of the united states is not one you can if mller were to subpoena the president, of course that would lead a protracted legal battle. it would likely urt take pottially months and months. it's something that would almost

overtake the entire mueller probe. it would be hugely controversial. it's something that is going to be challenged. >> that's what rudy wants. it is a precursor to a fight in the house. it will be this huge argument about whether mueller is overreaching to get thet talk, sides will form around t. it will be the beginning of a larger fig. i think that's what they want. you nodding jonathan no, tha-- michael is right. that is y what they want. they want to be encrusted in partisanship. they want this to be a red and bluish yu and they want people jseynd defend donald n their trump. that's what rudy is doing. that's all he's doing. rudy is not doing substantive legal work. the husband and wife team are doing substantive legal work. inveigats.r the t we can ridicule him all we like. he's said plenty things heeds had to take back. god knows he's talking about foreign policy today in ways he's neither order to do nor i

think are particularly helpful to the nthor i think 's been spectacularly effecte at throwing mud all over this investigation and the evidence is in the polling. g republicans, that's all -- that's thent ball game for them. >> let me read from your report enhehi , jonathan. ho is somewhat perplexed by rudy's moves. you write, the reality is the vast majority of trump s evio mostff are watching theizhow the rft estpublic. some think he's team has been sloppy and no idea what jude r julian si going t s next. i h tt a around the sean hannity appearance where he seemed to take sean hannit surprise by saying that donald trump funneled m thr ch cohen to stormy daniels and other women. but i didn't know that to be the case in an ongoing manner. did they really sort of take in rudy's developme h accusing mueller's investigators of framing the president in real time with the rest of us? y aot.

and truly it's like they are watching tv and it's -- when you ask them, john, and they're thy is none of them are by the. talking about russia inside the white house. thhe one conven are actually all trying avoid unless the president thrust it upon them when they're in the oval with him or in the dining room next to the oval office. so it's really a conversation confined to the legaam. they assume there is e b ty have no a y ide you kn t play by play. knowsort of abiding by its own laws of physics. >> r somethi on twitter and fox news in real time. your reporting, jay, the trump transition team charges the gs is trying to cover up the involvement of a controversial fbi agent peter strzok and the allegedlyllegal seizure of th lawyer for the transition team wrote, strzok played a larger role in

unlawfully seizing records. tell us what the fighting about. t "the new york times" e fbi reported made counter intelligence investigation remained secret during the campaign. that no voter would ever know that donald trump was under investigation. >> this is parallel controversy involving the mueller investigation. what the presidential team argues iser and team including specifically peter strzok. they single him out, seized e-mails from the gsa without first going to them and without getting a warrant. now, there is a lot of debate whether mueller actually a to seize those e-mails. they were being currently held in a repository by the gsa which is part of the they believe it . the transition team told me they are considering taking legal action against mueller over this. it's a little bites the mind. it is something being considered by the president's transition team. it is all part of an effort tgo

to put mueller back on his heels. >> how do people like emmet flood -- he's resct in conservative circles. how does he sort of l down and be a party to a smearpaign where they are suggesting te is trying to frame the president is ludicrous. >> that's one of the great mysteries. why would emmet flood take on this job. >> what is his answer? >> that so many people have failed in. >> it's a disgrace. what rudy said today is a disgrace. how does a man like emmet flood with a real reputation with respect from like george w. bus great job -- what e doing in the trumptese oesn't -- i don't know. and the thing that -- what i understand about sang -- i think i do understand -- he says he's being framed. the president doesol justpant e presidt has saidhat veryearly. so, if he thinks he's being am tell the justice department to stop it. >> he can pardon minimhimself. >> he's not prepared politically

to do that, but it's good fodder for rudy now continuing to talk about it. >> let meast on othe same topic. we'll have a graphic of the many at this jobs of the justice department. it's not exactly a good time to go to work at d.o.j. those used to be jobs with hundreds of resumes. i think rachel brand who was the third in line at the justice department, remains ed. pl of cancies. they can't get people in there to do jobs. i think even some of the national security positions remain empty. what does that say about what t department? >> you know, nicolle, for the last 20 years young washington, d.c. law students who were so anxious to go and work for the department of justice, as i did. >> now they want to work for "the newk time" >> that's right. republican, democrat, it didn't matter. they believed in the rule of law and thought the department respected that. now it's a whole different story. not only do you have to worry about the kind of lawhat about legal es. w youris, you h

president sai sterday that this investigation was ruining lives, he was right in a sense. there were a whole lot of people in the white house, people who just worked with him who aren't actually implicated who have to get very expensive lawyers. >> that's right. and i didn't mean to say "the new york times," dailyeast and axios. my friend jonathan swan, thank you for spending time with us. when we come back,reaking news in the stormy daniels/michael cohen standoff. after the break. also ahead, donald trump and his love of powe brg you new reporting on the president's passion for the pardon. he's at it again today. and almost as good as going on fox and friends for her birthday, melania's first public appegerys greeted with a twitter scream by th presiden new detail a laundry list of conspiracy theories about her absence neverered on rogram but now very much in the news. stay with us. this scientist doesn't believe in luck. she believes in research. it can take more than 10 years to develop a single medition.

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a new lawsuit from porn star stormy daniels alleges that her former attornekevi e one w negotiated her $130,000 hush money payment, was a, quote, puppet for donald trump and michael cohen. thert filing includes alleged text messages apparently between cohen and davidson in january, the day in-touch magazine resurrected an interview stormy did years ago published. the messages showed the two lawyers coordinating a media strategy for stormy. i have stormy ten

scher hannity. the wise men a believe the story is dying and don't think it's smart for her to do any interviews. let her do her thing but no interviews at all with anyone. davidson aegedly replies100%. michael avenatti stormy daniels's attorney joins us again. nice to see you. tell us first of all for the nonlawyer, how is it unethical, is it illegal, highly controversial -- dell us the degree of sin it is for stormy daniels's attorney to have been colluding with donald trump's fixer. >> well, it is one of the largest sins that you can engage as anattorney, nicolle. keith davidson had a dut of loyalty at all times to stormy daniels relating to any issues concerning her relationship with donald trump, and that duty of loyalty is absolute and it is to be respectt all tis, eve after you are terminated as counsel. these text messages are very, very disturbing and they show

that keith davidson instead of representing stormy daniels, was more interested in colluding quote, as one of the tex e messages notes. michael cohen, and was more interested inng michael cohen and donald trump in basically lyinto the american people about what had happened here. ese xt msages are explosive and what's even more disturbing, nicolle, is we still don't have all of them because keith davidson refuses to give us what we're entitled to. >> so, help me understand how stormy daniels' attorney ended up being a member of the president's fixer team. >> that's a very good question, nicolle, and it's a question that we want an answer to. but this is not proper conduct for an attorney who is supposed to be adverse to thether side. i mean, keith davidson was supposed to be representing stormy daniels at all times. he was supposed to be looking out for her interest and only

her interest. he was not supposed to be interested in helping out michael cohen and donald trump. and what's even more disturbing fromy perspective, nicolle,s what happened in early march of this year when tped off michael cohen to the filing of our lawsuit which allowed michael cohen to attempt to get out in front of it with the first lady. >> so, tell me, there is a text in here about the wise men, the wise men and their views. who are the wise men? you think that incdes dald trump. what evidence do you have that the wise men incdes the president? >> well, i'm not at liberty to discuss that evidence, but there is no question that that reference includes wise men, but i want to be really clear. that's not me referring to donald trump as a wise man. that's someone else referring to him -- that's someone else referring to him as a wise man. i would never call him a wise man, to be clear. >> let me -- let's dig in a little bit to the actual text. let me put another one on. this is from michael cohen to davidson. this is no good.

we nder as by doing tomorrow cycle instead of putting an end to this one. this is another character. they want h to go on sean hannity who is another michael cohen client we learn after the raid into michael cohen's home and offices. can you help me understand how stormy daniels ended up with an attorney that was part of donald trump's clean-up crew? i'm really having a hard time understanding how st ended up with someone who was supposed to represent her legal equities, who is a member of the president's legal and cleaner upper crew. >> again, nicolle, we don't know. but we're going to get to the bottom of it. did you ask storm, how did you meet this guy? is it possible that michael cohen recommend a lawy was on donald trump's team? >> no, i can assure you that did not happen. michael cohen did not refer stormy daniels to keith davidson to be clear. that did not happen. but here is what i will tell you, nicolle. if you look at these text messages, especially the exchange relating to sean

hannity's show, you see an absolute desperation on michael ient tnnity on try to get my the 17th of january. and if anybody believes that chl n putting or attempting to put my client on sean hannity without the t's dg i have a bridge or perhaps other things to sel them because that just didn't happen. if t michael cohen is meeting with the first lady to stormy daels without the president's knowledge, same answer. i have a bridge to sell . this is clear -- it is clear from the text messages that the prior denials by michael cohen and the president and what the american people have been told is a bunch of nonsense. >> are they lies? >> oh, i think there's no question they're lies. >> so, aeone whos very familiar with the southern district of new york said on pces these may have come frowhe you may have obtained the text messages could

have been the southern district. are you in receipt of formation from the southern district? are you gting things that were seize ed in that raid? >> no, not from the southern district, nicolle. and these text messages did not come from the southern .ese cam demanding from keithavidson that he give us his entire file, which my client is entitled to, and all of his communications with michael cohen relating mynt as rused -- still reses, we finally ghese. he now refuses to give us anything after march 2nd of this year. that's one of the reasons why we filed suit. it's clear to us that he's ding aitional information and text messages b and michael cohen relating to my client. i'm highly confident that those are going to be even more damaging as it relates to his unethical conduct and the complicit conduct of michael cohen. and that's one of the reasons we filed suit. we wan those text messages. we're entio them. my client is entitledonow

th depths at which these two individuals went to prejudice her. >> and are youseeking, keith's disbarment? what is the solution from your point of view? what is the appropriate punishment and sanction for keith davidson colluding with miael cohen? >> there is no questio raises very, very serious ethical issues that would relate to his practe a law or his ability to practe law. we haven't made a determination yet as to whether we're going to file an ethics complaint or not. we filed this lawsuit for a number of reasons. and another reason, nicolle, is we need all of this information and all o documents that we've been trying to get for the better part of three months now because we're doing everything in our power to cooperate with the southern district of new york. and what that requires is we need to look at all the documents and we have toake determinations as to the attorney/client privilege. and mr. davidson ishwarting d those efforts by refusing to give us whae're

entitled to. >> okay. so, let me for the sake of balance, let me add a spokesperson for keith davidson's response to your ivolous lawsuit i yet another desperate attempt by michael avenatti to continue his publicity to as well as divert attention from recent allegations against him related to the bankruptcy withholding federal taxes. he goes on to attack you personally. on the substance of it, he's calling this part of your publicity tour. you've had l o your client, stormy daniels. but i want to give you a chance to respond and i also want to ask youbout yesterday's ruling in the summer zervos case, deposing the president. is that your goal, are you near that place? >> we're getting closer with each passing week, with each

passing bit of inion, nicolle. let me say this. keith davidson, his response is part and parcel of what he's all about. this guy is an absolute liar. he's ara. and now wants to divert atnty from h breaches of fiduciary duty and clear unethical conduct by pointing to things that have nothing to doith thistreng to a. he should be trying to explain his own conduct and these text messages which are very, very damaging. >> let me get you to way in on summer zervos. some of the reporters who have covered a lot of the president's accusers say the summer is he voes ca may esent more legal danger to the president because the judge did rule that by january of 2019, a deposition of the president may be in order. >> we may get an order for deposition of the president before january. if our motion in federal court

is successful, of course that case is stayed now. but we have a pending motion to lift the stay. look, i can't judge as to which case is potentially more damaging to the president. i'm not that familiar with the zervos ce and ion't know what the scope of discovery in that case is going t think discove in our case is likel to be broader and is likely to raise more serious issues relating to campaign finance law and the ke as a sult of the date of the payment, mr. cohen's cover up, et cetera. >> i always like to ask this question and you have a good answer. my 6-year-old asks me this a hundred times a day. what happens next? >> we have a hearing on the 21st of june and an effort to lift the stay in the federal case. i anticipate til probably be some motion practe in the case we just filed relating to the turnover of the documents and the file. we want that file immediately because we want to do what we need to do for the southern district of new york. there's no excuse for mr. davidson and his attorneys

to drag their feet and not give us the file and not give us all of these text messages. we don't understand why he refuses to dot other than they must be really, really bad. >> michael avenatti, ams happy to see you. thank you for joining us. >> thank you, nicolle. >> pl butler, let me get you to weigh in on all of this. thaow that stormy daniels's attorney was in cahoots or colluding -- i don't know colluding. that should be the word of the year. colluding with dond ump's fixer. >> yeah. so, mr. avenatti has some circumstantial evidence, these text messages that at minimum mr. davidson and mr. cohen had a very friendly relationship. now, they were adversaries in this case, but essentially not that unusual for lawyers to be friends to get along. >> they were coordinating stormy daniels's media appearances. iends like more than that sous like co-strategist. s. >> at worst there is something more sinister going on here. mr. avenatti also alleges mr. trump knew what was going

on, president trump. so, it could be a conspiracy to prevent the truth from coming out, aacha ms. daniel go on tv and lie. so we jus don't know based on this limited information. >> but none of it good for mr. cohen. >> it's not good for mr. cohen mr. davidson. that's right. >> still ahead, the president wields his favorite unchecked power today, the pardon. and yet could it be like so many things with this president, it has less to do with helping people and everything to do with bob mueller?

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donald trump today commuted the sentence marie johnson, a 63-year-old woman serving out a life term for drug trafficking. it's a case that kim kardashian west brought to his attention last week. he has given reprieveo six individuals since taking office and nbc news can report dozens

more pardons are under considerion. ritingshington post abhi f topic. quote, the presidential pardon holds a special resonance for trump, representing one area where he has almost unchecked power, as other aspects of his l robe eller's ongoing special probe into russian interference in the 2016 presidential election, remain outside his control, according to his aides and advisors. trump entered the white house expecting to have few limits on his power, envisioning the presidency more like his private business than a plodding bureaucracy. he's grown frustrated over what he views as republican impotence on capitol hill, mueller's sprawling investigation and a cadre of aides with infighting. joining me, both msnbc contributors. eddy, let me start with you. the president and the pardon, a match made in heaven?

>> absolutely. it's like a child that's found a new toy. you know how children fixate on that one toy they play with all the time? it seems to represent the inner instincts of donald his natural inclinations. and if anything represents in some ways the worst version of the imperial presidency, it's the abuse of the pardon power. so, not only is he flouting kind of basic norms going through the pardon office. it seems to me that his, h application, his use of the power kind of flows with his whims, what he's feeling or what's in front of him at the time. today was really interesting. dinesh d'souza pled guilty for a crime. you think about scooter libby, guilty for a crime. they were pardoned. this 63-year-old woman, she was commuted, so in other words, her conviction stands. for dinesh d'souza and scooter libby, their convictio were wiped clean. >> as was sheriff arpaio.

>> exactly. >> some people said this is a message he's sending to the men who prosecuted a lot of these individuals. others have saie's snalling to witnesses and subjects, targets of the mueller probe. what do you make of the pardon of sessions? >> both are true. it's a middle finger to the prosecutors who pursued those charges and more than a dogwhtlg this investibut, you know, the suggest you're talking about dozens of pardons. i know we use this word too much, but he is going to normalize the pardon power. this is one of the most unchecked absolute powers of the presidency. and after several dozen, it will be just another pardon. so, when, in fact, he does drop the constitutional bomb, pardoning somebody who is a target of the investigation or a witness against him or perhaps even himself, will we hav the shock value that we would have is is a presiden wasally excell unthinkable and making it

thinkable and then normalizing it. but there is no question about it, you know, we're in this process where he clearly is basically saying, look, if you don't cooperate, i'm pardoning everybody. i'm handing them out like skittles. i'm going to take right wing control like dinesh d'souza. >> that gives me l to hr you call him a right wing -- >> loyalist bigot like joe arpaio. there is one for you, too. clearly, if he's accused of obstructing justice they are also now developing the argument he can't, he's above the law. you and i are old enough to remember when the republican party was the law and order party. law and order does not mean rule of law rt every time he does this, he is like the boiling frog. boston globe had a great column about this. boiling frog, by the time he crosses the line we would become numb to t. wee bece numb to it the past 500 days. >> such a good point. the washington post poses a

great story. the potential pardon of johnson, west wing advissnc chief of staff john kelly, white house counsel don mcgahn disturbed by the process according to two people familiar with the discussions. one of the things that has preserved, i think, the power of the pardon -- and i was in the white house when george w. bush wrestled with whether to pardon scooter libby, decided ton, created a rift with people in the vice-president's circ, commuted the sentence but didn't pardon him. this president has no restraint around anything. >> there is such a long complicated proce for pardon. there is a whole office in the department of justice, office of pardon attorney. it doesn't happe until after you've been out five years. you have to have been a model prisoner and then on the outside show remorse and also that you've been retated. dinesh d'souza hasn't done any of that. mr. johnson, on the other hand, can we say here the president did the right thing, but for the

mrs. j is someone who, if she were sentenced today would get a much lower sentence. she got life imprisonment for a f te drug offense.that a ncern. there are many more people like her. so, we don't want to say that the president's pardon power is always wrong, but we know really so secret sign to people like -- >> this wouldn't have happened if kim kardashian hadn't come in. who do you know, are you a celebrity, well connected? that coneyism lack of process. >> let's remember people involved in the mueller probe are getting the message. george papadopoulos's wife has been on a media tour. she's been talking to as many as she can, talking to rt roers trying to make the case for a pardon for her husband. >> let's listen to that. >> we're here in the middle of pardon season. i appreciate you coming on, people who watch the show know we have people on who have been involved in the mueller probe because you ing a very

particular experience. having gone to the interviews, is the potential pardon something you've discussed with george or anyone affiliated with the trump team? >> no, absolutely n. actually his lawyers who are not happy at all me mentioning on tv the pardon, but i'm my o persons expectation. i really hope. mostly in light of the circumstances that came out recently and became public recently. i think they were completely unjustified and make a pardon appropriate in this case and deserved. >> one really amazing revelation that she made in that interview is that this effor that she is currently undergoing to try to get her husband pardoned is in defiance of her husband's own lawyers. not even george papadopoulos's lawyers think it's a good idea for them to do this media blitz to try to get him pardoned. despite that papadopoulos's wife is still publicly making the case for why he should be let off the hook. that's extraordinary. >> and robert mueller is interested in the way pardons have been dienglangled in front

witnesses. it was dangled in front of mike flynn and paul manafort before they were charged. a pardon isn't just a pardon any more. >> you know, i guess a thing for today is sleaze works. why hasn't paul manafort struck a deal? this is a 70-year-old man who is looking at years. the crimes he's charged with are really easy to prove. seems to be waing for something. and again, i don't think he's crazy to think that a pardon might be something in trump's skip bag. >> it's not subtle. we talk about the breaking down of norms. one of the things we are discovering is how much these democratic legal norms were based on an honor system. >> right. >> there is not black line, you know, statutory limitations on what the president can do. and so the president is going, well, why can't i order my political foes to be investigated? why can't i shutdown an veation? well, because it' the norm. a po

has no problem destroying those, but those norms are the fundamental underpinning of what we have regarded as the rule of law up until now. >> that's absolutely right. charlie has been hitting it on the head. this idea that donald trump can actually dangle the pardon to those who may incriminate him, right, suggests that the obstruction line of mueller's investigation is stronger, right? it seems as if -- and i'm not a er, butt seems to me this is part and parcel of why people think he's obstructing the investigation. in the midst of him trying to protect his own behind -- beremember, donald trump is like valdemort. only h can live. he's willing to destroy institutions, willing to throw norms out the window. and here it seems to me least fm e outside a clear example of obstruction. but who knows? mueller -- i can only assume that mueller is paying close attention to it all.

>> do you want to get in on it real quick, last word? >> mueller has a great team of investigators, but consistently donald trump himself provides the best evidence of his criminal intent. >> all right. up next, file this one under just can't help himself as the first lady tries to make a quiet return to the public eye after nearly a month. the president uses the opportunity to air his grievances with the med a spread conspiracies. it took guts to start my business. but as it grew bigger and bigger, it took a whole lot more. that's why i switched to the spark cash card

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♪ with expedia you could book a flight, hotel, car and activity all in one place. ♪ today marks the first time in 26 days that the public has seen the first lady. melaot public appearances since she was hospitalized last month for a benign kidney condition. as speculations swirled around her absence. the president tweeted this this morning. quote, the fake news media has been so unfair and vicious to my wife and our great first lady melania. during her recovery from surgery they reported everything from near death to facelift to left

the white house and me -- image that -or new york or virginia to abuse. all fake, she is doing really well. four reporters spotted melania in the white house last week walking merrily walkingmerily along to a meeting. they never reported the sighting because it would hurt the sick narrative that she was living in a different part of the world was really ill, or whatever. fake news is really bad. to which my cle joe scarborough responded i agree it would be vicious and unfair to lie about a loved o to have a face liforurpose of causing pain and embarrassment. mr. president, could you imagine anybody could be so cruel and do such a thing, joe of course referring to the president's a year ago.ika brzezinski i remember that day, the president sent out a tweet. i wrote i heard poorly rated spks badly of

me. then how come low iq mika and joe came to mar-a-lago and insisted on joining me. she was ed bleeding badly from a face lift. i said no. the president dishing out insults. and then i don't know a lot of mainstream outlets that list he assembled in this tweertd. we didn't cover a sing theory for her absence from the public arena. but now we are because the president tweeted it. >> first of all, he cries harm and injury when it comes to him. he is a narcissist. he is not concerned about the harm and injury he dishes out. let's be clear about that. our own halle jackson has reported on the first lady, and that she was hunkered down with her staff in her office thinking about planning ahead. that i don't recall mainstream media kind oflecting one of the concerns that he lays out in his tweet.

i think this, again, is just donald trump ginning up his base, trying to gin up outrage, see look at these folks attacking the first lady, using that again as fodder to kind of feed to his base. this is just a part of this -- how can you describe it? it's almost as if painting themselves as victims allows them to do what they do. so they can fall back on being victims of something as cover, as they flout every norm, as they undermine every -very institution, and try to pursue their own narcissistic ends. >> i agree with that, and that to me is the plausible explanation for all the stuff he does as it pertains to government. but i do not accept that as an explanation for your wife's illness. the fact that nothing is sacred, that even your wife being sickpearing is an excuse to get on twitter and unload a screed of whackadoo stuff. >> for the 500th time -- i think

i need to say that. yeah, there is something deeply wrong with this ma because there is no strategy here. who tweets something like that about your wife? look, i think that melania is a beautiful and classy first lady. i think she deserves privacy. and yet the president -- >> we gave it to her. >> the president of the united states does two things. one he lies about the coverage. that is just a flat out lie about those thing >> right. >> but then he himself floats out these wild, bizarre conspiracy theories. you know, yes, in order to create some sort of a victimization. but who does that sort of thing? and there are so many rational, reasonable, classy ways of making the point that she' ok loves her, that he supports her, et cetera. and yet he doesn't do that he's also complete loo unself aware to the pointhere, you know, he is talking about how dare anyone speculate she have a face lift. by the way, why would you do

that, you know, having done that to other people? i think if you try to come up with some rational political justification for, that it doesn't really rise to the moment. >> eddie i'm going to put thespot. you can handle it. there is a pattern, ough, of him saying things about the women in his life. i'm thinking of all the things he said about his daughter, ivanka, on programs like howard stern. i'm thinking about thing he said about a very young infant, tiffani trump in other interviews -- i mean, he has said thing abouten in his life that are at best lewd, at worst, are ly disturbing. >> look, i don't want to fall into the trap of name calling but -- i'm not a psychiatrist or a psychologist. but he s to me to be a narcissist, and only concerned about him. that kind of narcissism merges and converges with other sorts of character flaws, one is that he has a very complicated and

problematic relationship with women. whether it be women he's declared he loves or women that he -- are the object of his crude desires. it's not c that donald p will accord people outside of himself dignity and standing. everyone, including the people he loves, seems to be, for him at least n a relationship of transaction. that he's engaged in something with -- i'm getting something from you, right, for myself. to the extent to which his relationships are transactional, even the people he loves will fall victim to what that means. and so i don't want to c him a misogynist although there are some elements there. >> i will. >> butti there is something at his narcissism that's deeply problematic. >> i will. he is a narcissist and he is a misogynist. i think that's a matter of

public record. he is absyhthere. in everyone -- in trump's world, everyone is to be used, exploited, in order to make that person a victim, in order to use this do have some od jill. sympathy -- look, melania made her on choices. but i have se spathy about what it must be like to realize what she got herself into i. what she got into. and she got another dose of it this morning. >> we'll be right back. these zebra and antelope. they're wearing iot sensors, connected to the ibm cloud. when poachers enter the area, the animals run fo. which alerts rangers, who can track their motions and help stop them before any harm is done. it's a smart way to help increase the rhino population. and turn the poachers into the endangered species. ♪ ♪

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my thanks to the panel. that does it for our hour. i'm nicolle wallace. chk, are you get forw. tonight's game? >> i'm wishing you some bad luck. >> listen, the warriors always break my heart. i watch like this. i'm not going the trash talk until tomorrow. >> if they win tonight, it's over. that's the fun for you. if they win tonight, it's over. good luck. fell like to be continued 24 hours from right now. good luck. >> if it's wednesday we are coming up with the conspiracies. ♪ >> good evening. i'm chuck todd here in washington. welcome to "mtp daily." right now we are dealing with the sequences of a president who has bit of a wartime approval rating among members of his own party, and a president who is seemingly fix ated