llpe your hump day is going th for "th wel bet 6:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow. "hardball" with chris matthews is up next.>> r i a frame-up. let's rdball." good evening. m chris matthews in washington. prident trump is bei framed. that's what rudy giuliani says. the special counsel bober and the u.s. justice department is building dishonest case against the president. also today, theyeror stormy daniels isusing michael cohen oforruptly getting daniels to deny her etchule entanglement with trump all together. we begin with thisontinued trump offensive against robert mueller. rump m the baseles claim that the appointment of a

ecial counsel itself is totally unconstitutional. and now giuliani is making an equally outrageous claim saying mueller and his prosecutors are. here's giuliani speaking in re group 13 highly partisan democrats that make up are trying very, very hard to frame him. g trouble when h hasn't done anything wrong. f course, there's evidce t back up giiani claim. meanwhile, as trump argues that he's above the law, he is showcasing the per presidential pardons. as "the washington post" reports, a white house official this week said trump is obsessed withpa dcribin a th president's new favorite thing to talk about. and today trump used that power to commute the life sentence of alice johnson at the of celebrity kim kardashian midwest last week.

johnson was released from prison late today. however. the grt cle toohnson whoerved 22 years for a nonviolent ig ofhingcome. now a white house official tells nbc news dozens of pardons have been prepared for the prent an he's considering them, all apparently. asthe washington post" toomou advisers and critics, they hold a broader symbolism of some of his former allies and aides that are face criminal charges or pleaded is guilty to part of mueller's investigation. trump's attorneys discussed the prospect of a pardon last month withawye represenng michael flynn and paul manafort. something trump's lawyers haven. joining me is jonathan lemire from the "associated press," natasha bertrand with theibutor cynthia is a former federal prosecutor. i want done there. jonathan, it seems to me that

the whole strategy on trump's part is to create a situation where nobody trusts the prosecution, there's no such thing as objective law or obctive crime or any objective fact. therefore everybody should decide on everything by party li in. that means no oneill get impeached let aloneconvicted. if erything is party line, everybody goes to their usual tribal coections, nothing will get done. that giulian strategy. >> ihink that's right. the playbooks exactly as you said to turn mueller and his investigators into political figures, not sort of nonpartisan above the aw on their part to undermine their credibility to sow doubt and to get out there ahead of whatever the special counsel will find. if you paint it on terms, you can suggest that mueller's findings are politically motivated and therefore, not credible. on that same note, we're expecting in days, perhaps as

soon as tomorrow the department of justice's insct ren comehe former fbi director and his handling of the hillary clinton probe. trump's white house, his team and giuliani, giuliani told me in the last couple days he expects that report to be very mey. comey to which they will point to and say look, this is someone who the president was right to fire and b isn't trustworthy. further undermining whatever testimony he's against the president in mueller's case. >> let me go to you, natasha, framing. it's all a frame-up. this seems like a crook in a 1930s gangster movie. its a frame-up. >> this is a conspiracy theory making its wayd news. >> what do you mean, theory, people believe it or they're selling something. >> a lot of trump supporters believe. the ones sowing it, do they believe it. >> not necessarily. it's somhing that is himmielpin

to erode the credif the investigation among trump supporters. this is a strategy the president has managed to find someone willing to help him along with it. >> rudy giuliani will do anything for him, right? >> rudy giuliani has been an ally for a long time for the president, especially during the campaign, he was a top surrogate. when put together, they're a very, very powerful force in trying trm ts investigation, but of course, trump has been going at this alone for better of part of years. >> you're being limiting in this argument. i'll stay with you on this. iteems there's a whole troe rea whether it's ryan or dowdy who are people who basically said he's ave the fray. they don't treat him as some hack. now rudy is trying to bring him down to hack level over in israel talking about this stuff. anywhere he can get a clear shot at the guy. this is not normal.

>> no, it's not. >> nixon went down because after archibald cox who was a known kennedy ally. nixon didn't run around saying this whole thing is a crime nev said the government is corrupt. >> he didn't have twitter either. >> i don't want to lighten the burden of the immorality of the operation. they're burning the credibility of the u.s. government to save their skins. >> the only two people who have spoken out are pl ryan and trey gowdy both of whom are leaving congress at the end of this year. what we don't see the is enough republicans saying no, mueller is a very, very credible former fbi director. >> i think it's a new level of skunk behavior. all of this comes after the president claimed nearunlimited power effectively saying theaw doesn't apply to him because as he put it delightfully, i have the absolute right to pardon myself. many sent a clear signal this

week they would not support any attempt by the president toold himself above the law by saying i can pashd stn myself no matter what i do. let's watch some of them. >> mr. speaker, do you believe that the president has the power to pardon himself? >> i don't know the technical answer but i think obviously the answer is he shouldn't. no o >> i don't think theresint nean advice on pardoning himself. he obviously knows that would not be something that he would or should do. >> if i were president of the united s a i had a lawyer myself, i think i'd hire a new lawyer. >> i agree with those who say he needs new lawyers if that's what they're telling him. that's absurd. u can't pardon yourself on this kind of thing. >> it's nice to know at least there's a residue of republican lawmaker who have some respect whether it's the leader of the republicans in the senate, majority leader or the speaker of the hous constl officer, third in line to the

presidency or quogowdy. a number of them to take this seriously that this president is being judged fairly and any not he ca out d say i'm free because i said so is an absurdity. >> i don't agree with that. i don't think ryan was an clear. >> do you think he's open to the idea of self-pardon? >> i don't think he's open to self-pbu not strong at all on all the other terrible things that trump is doing to degrade and dehumanize our justice system. sometimes he does a few words about it, but he's not strong at all. mccarthy aboutta over is not strong at all. mcconnell does almost nothing except periodically say a couple of comments. they're not strong at all. i completely disagree with that. i think they're weak. it's to continue to injure the system when he's gone. i think because they're weak on every other little thing, the

day is going to come when we're g to have a constitutional crisis. that may be the day that fires mueller and sessions and rosenstein. it may be the day he tries to pardon himself. because they're so weak all along the road, he's -- they are forcing a constitutional crisis because they are not doing their job. offensive. history will not treat them well. >> natasha, do you think they're showing that kind of weakness? >> they have. like i said, the only people anthem have shown a spine in all this are people jeff flake, bob corker a making a slight comment about the president not being able to pardon himself, it might be woerktd of impeachment. he's not running for re-election. >> he's joined the group of people that don't have to face voters anymore. >> right. >> jonathan, you're reporting for the "associated press," the pres angryh attorney gerf sessions for recusing himself a year ago. "trump has take it on not even

saying sessions' name outliers loud while in thhite house," according to the two officials, a practice several of his senior aides have adopted. this comes after trump criticized sessions on twitter yesterday saying the russian witch hubt hoax continues all because jeff sessions didn't tell me he was going to recuse himself. i would have quickly picked someone else. this is so old, mr. president. so much time and money, so many lives ruined and sessis knew better than most that there was nos collusion. we know based on the reporting questions the prosecutors want to pren they're interested in trump's public criticism of sessions. jonathan, how do you explain the fact that the president keeps going over this old scab, ripping it off again and again? he let -- he named sessions. sessions recused himself. those are facts. why does he keep going over it and over it again? to what effect? is it to get the guy to quit?

that's the only thing i can figure. >> the president's mind, jeff sessions committed the original sin, that he recused himself. >> why talk about over and over again. >> one is simply the president can't help himself. it is a fury.yes, he rarely spe name in the white house. he was on air force one last week and got great news about the jobs report and yet, in our reporting when an aide to n ney general to him, he sent him out of the room and turned up the volume on his fox tv set. >> his fox tv set. do they make their own brand now? only one channel on it. >> in the president's office it, mit one channel. he knows he can't sessions for three reasons. one, that is a moment where some former colleague.s st for mcconnell saide won hd hearings for a replacement if you fire him. two, sessions is still popular

among the conservative base and the president is leery about alienating them and three, would attract a lot of attention from robert mueller and feed into the idea of obstruction. i do think people around the president believe can't fire him. but if trump makes his life meeting today fema, the it. president was thereefore t hurricane preparations. he went around the room and thanked all of his cabinet members and praised them except nice to see you.s he said hey, >> this is like the old days with the inese, the prc would doing out an old leader and say this is what we held the revolution against. s sin thinkia, i was trying to give account republicans slack. >> tell them buck up. >> thank you so much.mi u storm in a new lawsuit her old lawyer was a you. pet for president trump and his fixer michael cohen. the suit alleges the twos

attorneys were in ca hoots. h allawyer, hatching a plan to have daniels denyn affair with trump on sean hannity's show. hmm and perhaps most damaging of all, trump was in on it. this is good stuff. if you likethat's ahead. plus, bill clinton ss his defensive interview aboutica lewinsky wasn't his finest hour. good for him. the roundtable will tackle that along with paul ryan who is finally showing some ckbone. i think. i dare say with cynthia still here. and scott pruitt who appears to be in yet more ethical trouble. something to doing with chicken filet. and singer and civil rights activist harry bellefonte joins us tonight as we remember bobby f. kennedy. bobby died 50 years ago today, june 6th, 196. let me finish 2507b9 with trump watch. it's short and not sweet. this is "hardball" where the action is. her salon was booked for weeks,

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president trump's lawyer the upcoming summit mrened with kim jong-un. he sai "got on his hands and knees and begged president trump to m with the meeting after trump abruptly elled in late may." here's giuliani. >> well, somehow north korea after he canceled the summit because they insulted the vice president, they ite his al securyadviser, and theyls said they to goo nook clear war against us. they were going to defeat us in a nuclear war. we said we're not going to have a summit under those circumstans. kim jong-un got back on his hands and knees and begged for it, s the position you want to put him in. >> oh is, giuliani later suggested a similar approach should be taken in negotiating a mideast peace deal with the palestinians. this is really great diplomacy,

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welcome back to "hardball." adult film actor stormy daniels has filed an explosive new laut alleging her former attorney keith david zirinson who negotiated that $130 hush money yment, was acting as a "you. et for donald trump and michael cohen." the court filing includes alleged text messages between the two attorneys and claims the two men, those you just mentioned, hatched a plan for daniels to go on fox news, sean hannity's show and deny she had a prior relationship with trump. in other words, deny the whole thing. in one text cohen wrote to david zirinson i have her tentatively scheduled for hannity tonight. call me after your trial. cohen later wrote the wise men all believe this story is dieing and don't think it's smart for her to do anyew no interviews at all. david zirinson replayed 100% to

l.ich cohen responded thanks, the complaint alleges the wise man alleges trump and that trump knew of the plan to get her to appear on hannity's show. michael avenatti spoke with my colleague, nicolle wallace this afternoon. >> if you look at these text messages, especially the ange relating to sean hannity's show, you be see as the absolute desperation on michael cohen's part to try to get my client to go on sean hannity on the 17th of january. and ifnybody believes that michael cohen is putting or attempting t put my client on sean hannity without the president's knowledge, i have a bridge or perhaps other things to sell them because that just didn't happen. it is clear from the text messages that the prior denials by michael cohen and the president and what the american people have been told is a bunch of nonsense. >> lawyers michael cohen and an attorney for the president did

not respond with an i ent. keitid zirins us he's cooperating with a federal investigation of cohen. in a statement his spokesman said this outrageously frivolous lawsuit is another despe attempt b avenatti to continue his publicity tour. i'm joined by julia ansley, justice reporter. this -- i don't know. i think this is getting really something. to a person following this as a mystery y, it's fascinating. it says basically michael cohen, the renowned fixer of the president is so good he had this woman who had the affair apparently or one night whatever with the president, was willing to deny the whole thing as part of a deal and she was going to do a prime time show on hannity's show and the whole thing was going to be rigged beautifully to get her paid off. the president left alone, everybody happy to an extent. but basically trump being the winner. >> that's right. if you look at these texts, the

ones included in the lawsuit, it doesn't look like choen to dony work at all to get david zirinson to agree. >> m.o. t basically not go to court to, push a little bit, get some money up front and take the short money and wa? >> we've seen in other cases n in hollywood particularly people are playboy playmates have gone to keith david zirinson when they've had an affair, the same thing with elliott brody, karen mcdougal who alleged an affair with trump. he is someone who can get money for these women. that's why they go to them. th he also on the nd has this very cozy relationship with michael cohen where he's really working against them to keep their stories quiet. as we see from this, he was taking all of his orders from cohen here saying n worries, 100% she won't go out and tell her story onhannity. he was actually working to help a news cycle. >> this is exactly, i don't know, danny, did you see "spotlight" about about the catholic church in boston and how they covered up?

there was a lawyer whose job it was he would fix these cases just like that to keep the priests out of the bad publicity, pay something to the kid and parents who were harmed by the priest and everybody in the short term is miserably happy with nothing. it was the legal game. this sounds like this guy david zirinson did this for a living. ou could look at that way. if you look at the allegations in the complaint you have to realize sometimes in settling cases, lawyers communicate with each other. and you have to allege facts that cross that line that david zirinson specifically crossed the line from going back and forth and maybe he was the demure one in the relationship but going back and forth with cohen or did he cross the line and breach his fishery duty, his duty of confidentiality and his duty to maintain the secrets of his client? and then a second question beyond that is what are the specific for soebl damages that stormy daniels suffered as a result of these texts and this

counicatio >> well, in march of this year, david zirinson, the previous laer allegedly told cohen the new lawyer that dans planned to file a lawsuit against him and trump who invalidate the nondisclosure agreement. it references test messages to arrange a phone call. david zirionte calling? cohen responded with flotus. give me a te let et to the bigge political question. danny, i want you to here, too. is this all to get trump into a situation if you're avenatti, to get trump into a suation like bill clinton and his lawyer robert bennett witheg to paula jones and the whole thing ends up being disastrous for the president which he's still talking about this week, $900,000 in thatcase. and beak admitted. >> yeah, i tnk that these relationships can hurt people on both sides. they can hurt the person, the accuser who wants to come forward and have their story

told. perhaps if it's something they feel wronged more than just they want a payment but they feel like they've been wronged, somehow accosted, abused and nt to tell that story but it can also hurt the person on the other side, the accused where that person can be hit up for a large aunt of money. if the two lawyers are talking together, they can work that person over for a very large sum so the lawyer you think you're going to, someone'r think youan is acalking to th defen and coming up with this very large number. >> well, danny, i think if you're watching the me, too movement and you're sensitive to women abused by people in stronger positions, maybe positions of authority, here's the president looking like he was getting off scot-free after a relationship. really no cost to him in terms of billions he has. and yet, she's being short -- basically short circuit bid her attorney. it makes it look like she didn't get a fair shake. >> the optics are bad. this may be a case where david

zirinson breached the rules of professional responsibility that bind us that give rise toivil claim just like the one in this complaint, but if you read the othe y'll note absence of any damages suffered by stormy daniels. monetary measurable damages. that may not matter if avenatti's goal is to set the administration on fire, get these people under oat and see what happens. >> by the way, last question. you're the expert. would robert mueller and his troops be watching a case like this for an opportunity to get in some questions of their own if it goes to deposition, goes to discovery? >> they would not be permitted to attend the deposition and ask their own questions but they would absolutely be interested in what is contained in a transcript. every answer to every question in a deposition is under oath and therefore, a potential perjury trap. the doj uses lots of creative

ways to discover information about defendants. and an exist civil case is one of those means of finding out information. >> mr. cohen, have you ever paid for an abortion, have you ever paid for this or that? those questions all relevant and acceptable in that kind of a process? >> yes. as a general rule, the scope of discovery at a deposition is anything reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence. a lawyer who instructed his ient to not answer a question at a deposition runs the risk of being hauled before a judge and explaining why he halted the questioning if no privilege was implicated. >> bet on avenatti. thank you. great reporting. up next, bill clinton says his testy interview about monica lewinsky was not his finest hour. that was a great line by him politically. the round table is weighing on that and other topics. this is "hardball" where the

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you'll only pay $4.95. you likso do i.urs? hey blue. i brought you something. okay. 're getting out of here. you're welcome. n! holy! thiss goa be awesome. rated pg-13. i think chairman gowdy's initial assessment is accurate. i have seen no evidence to the contrary of the initial assessment tha chaman gowdy has made but i want to make sure we run every lead down and make sure we get finalwers to these questions. >> that was speaker paul ryan agreeing with trey gowdy, the chairman confident house oversight committee who last

week said there was no evidence backing trump's conspiracy theory the fbi planted a spy in his campaign. another republican rebuked trump's wild claim today. tom rooney told politico, what is the point of saying there was a spy in the campaign when there was none? you know what i'm saying? it's like let's create there thing to tweet about knowing it's not true. maybe it's to create more chaos but it doesn't help the case. i'm joined by yamiche alcindor and, shermichael singleton, a republican consultant and rick is the author of "rfk, his words for our time." paul ryan show some spine here. >> what it tells me. >> cynthia in the first segment says no. i think he's showing something. >> it shows retiring republicans still feel free to criticize the president but everybody who wants to be around after 2018 still can't get at all close to

being critical of the president. >> so that's it. 86% republican vote that supports trump, you don't mess with trump. >> they're all terrified. >> especially not if you're running for re-election. i would not advise any member of congress. >> to say the truth? >> absolutely. >> respect the truth? >> chris, as a matter of politicsifouo win an ection in of donald trump, you should probably. >> suppose trump says, i can pardon myself. what will what would you say. >> that's abrdity. >> if you're a republican running for re-election say that's an absurdity? >> probably not because they probably wouldn't win. i'm not running for office. i can say that. >> robert kennedy said there can be no meaningful politics ignorant of the facts. he said moral courage is a rarer commodity than bravery and battle are great intelligence. right now, moral courage across the street upn the hill among republicans is nonexistent. >>

>> it's extraordinary. we are calling as meaningful ins that someone noticed that e emperor has no clothes. lintonas g an former president opportunity to clarify comments he made on clag melvin about how he handled the monica lewinsky affair. steve colbert asked president clinton if he wanted a do-over. here's what he had to say. >> it wasn't my finest hour but the important thing is, that was a very painful thing that happened 20 years ago, and a apologized to my family, to monica lewinsky and her family, to the american people. i meant it then, i meant it now. i've had to live with the consequences every day since. i still believe this me, too movement is long overdue, necessary and should be supported. >> what do you think. >> i thi president clinton is doing what president trump doesn't do which is he's

admittinate was wrong d probably ce worded that better. >> he's dropping the fact he lost 16 million bucks on the deal. that was not a smart move. >> what he's saying is he understands that what he said oblematic. >> all people want is a little humility. >> even,000 he's not very he's talking about i was rt i went through a lot of things. it's not about you. this is a moment about what happened to monica lewinsky and so many womenshe country going through these issues. you should never violate someone's personal autonomy. bill clinton did. he doesn't seem to be apologetic then and isn't now. >> he realizes before history, he's going to be judged in part on his weaknesses but cartoons like one dimensional heroes. e-dimeional h fok for same kind of complexity in the human character we see in our own lives and those around us. and the issue for president clinton is, is he going to be

remembered for what he did accomplish or putting americorps couny, for an unprecedented e creation of jobs, for the elimination of the fedal deficit, or is he goingbe remembered for his weakest moments? judge h in his entirety but i would argue that he needs to be more active if he is truly apologetic, be more active king about the issues affecting women. >> finally the negative headlines continue for epa administrator scott pruitt. the atlantic reports one of his top aides resigned amid repts snt much time o personal tale a spokesperson told the reporter, you have areat day. you're a piece of trash. there's great press relations a day after "the washington post" report that pruitt used his cabinet position to try to get his wife a chick-fil-a y, weha he asked another aide to inquire about purchasing a mattress

from trump tower, a used mattress. what little tackles these people are given. federal ethics rules prohibit personal subordinates from carrying out personal tackles. let's move on. thisa weird thing. this guy keeps, pruitt is just radioactive. >> here'thing. people will continue to leak from the epa because his own staff have real iue him. in particular, they believe the epa should be doing things and should be actually out regulating and scott pruitt does not believe that. he believes they should be pulling back regulations. we'll see a trickle trickle every single week. >> how about joni ernst saying he's a swampy fellow. that's a great line to say he's the swampy >> remember dre sw is that reality? is it rhetoric or reality? as it relates to scott pruitt, it's all e esident ally mns and i think republicans should be outraged. it's our duty to uphold the

taxpayer dollar. >> some people get caught and some people never get caught. this guy keepsti ca. nixon. he just gets caught. >> we went from a president who said he came in to drain the swamp and then what he does is insults the public sector, the hard workingple who do the work of the nation every day and he will regards his appointment licse loot the federal till. >> remember he's getting a lot of stuff done at the epa, part of the reason he keeps his job. "hardbdtable.ight back wit a lot of nuance here. do you offer $4.95 online equity trades? great question. see, for a full service brokerage like ours, that's tough to do. schwab does it. next question. do you offer a satisfaction guarantee? a what now? a satisfaction guarantee. like schwab does. man: (scoffing) what are you teaching these kids? ask your broker if they offer award-winning full service

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because we can still feel the energy in the parade reaching across the convertible ts. cks of appachn the ds of watts, and yes, all the way to soweto. >> welcome back. that was president clinton earlier today in arlington national cemetery paying tribute to the robert kennedy. he died 50 years ago today. this is a beautiful book you've done, robert f. kennedy, his words for our times. people want to hear something brand-new. give us a story about bobby. you're the last word. >> a great story that hasn't been known, marian wright edelman told me about it. that is when she was working with dr. king shortly before his ath to try to figure out how best to spotlight the problems of poverty in america, they had no idea how to carry that

forward. she went to robert kennedy who said you have to bring poor people to washington because it's essential for our leaders to see the lives being led by the less fortunate among us. so that concept for the poor people's march is due in part to robert kennedy. >> what do you think of that? >> that's pretty amazing to think that he had the foresight to know that he hado see people to make them real for the nation. i think that's an idea that we see kind of repeated over and over again in a lot of protests i've covered you have to see african-american kids to care about them. >> life you have to experience it. >> i agree. i think he was of a special breed of a politician, of a leader who recognizes that it's lfless, and it's about the people particularly the least of these. i think that's something that's missing badly in our society right now. >> we agree on that. bipartisan sentiment from

bipartisan group. thank you. up next, sinr a tiviststick around. thismazing couple of miwith harry belafonte. the guy's 91 years old and he really hasething to say tonight for all of us. you're watching "hardball." ...a mythical castle ...and a grand banquet hall. this is not just a yard. it's where memories are made. the john deere x350 select series with the exclusive one-touch mulchcontrol system. nothing runs like a deere™ $300 the x350 select series™ tractors with the purchase of a mulchcontrol™ kit.

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advanced to the general elec the majority of those candidates are democrats emboldened by news out of missouri where they flipped another republican held ate legislative state. this is the 42nd red to blue flip since trump took office. in california, therefes they would get shutout of t coaces. thanks to the state's twos primary system but they didn't. despite the speculation, democrats will be on the ballot in all those races come november lirn republicans also have ason to celebrate. john cox earned a spot in that state's governor's race. it's back to him. and the lieutenant governor. he'll face lieutenant governor gavin newsom we'll be right back. oh! just sign up online l and we'lt riber any onef thousands of risky sites. that sounds super helpful. how much is it? well, if you have a discover card, it's free. no way! well, if you have a discoveryes way!t's free. we just think it's important for you to be in thenow. all right! hey... ewww! everything ok?

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and artists where a young activist said he wouldn't fight for america when the country continued to deny us our rights. bobby's first reaction to that was exasperation. but as i wrote in bobby kennedy, a raging spirit he eventually came around to the young activist point of view noting if i had gone through what he had gone through, i might feel differently about this country. i spoke with entertainer harry bellefonte who was at th 1963 meeting. >> harry, it's an honor to have you on. you look great. thanks for coming over to "hardball" tonight. >> a great pleasure. >> 50 years ago, robert kennedy we were wondering if he was going to make it. he did not in th ends. you wereh him in sort ofis grth >> whe bobby kennedy became attorney general, many of moaned of that fact because he had never displayed from our perspeive great concern for the plight of black people. as a matter of fac he knew

very little about our plight. not that he was indifferent. he just didn't know. i seized on that fact and told him that he would never have an easy time of it if he didn't come to know more about the black cause. that sparked in him a sense of astonishment because he felt that after all, john kennedy had been doing such wonderful things and that there was not enough sense of appreciation from the black perspective for what john was yes, it's true, we are most critical and in that sense, bobby inherited the task of trying to mobilize us through the kennedy administration. when i asked him about why he felt he could adminster the needs of this country

little abouthee who were the most disturbed and he pointed out that he didt agree with m o view, that he thought that we were insensitive to the fact that his brother and he were sacrificing so much in our cause. and i was struck by the fact he thought he was doing so much. and when we in fact felt they were doing so little. perhaps more than previous presidents had done, but except abe lincoln and roosevelt. >> yeah, but what changed him? he seemed to move in your >> i think wha changed him was the fact that dr. king instructed myself and others that our task was not to criticize the fact that he was not favorable to our cause, but to win him and to find his moral center and win him to our cause. and in this query, i looked at that with that query, i said

that's not going to be possible. this guy is too far afield of who we are and what we're about. >> dr. king, i remember from your book, he talked about after bobby was sort of beaten up by this young guy, jerome smith that king said something to you eouuote itthe book sayi mbe needed this. this is what he needed. so you were pushing him. >> it was what bobby needed. he was ready -- after meeting with bobby kenn finding path of possibility, he invited us, a group of us to his home and in his home, he thought that he had been talking politics all the time, was talking to dr. king. he was hearing the most challenging side of the black voice and he invited a group of black people to come visit him, lena horne, james baldwin --

>> you. >> me. clarence jones w w dr. king's attorney to come and just have what he thought was a social chat. at the time a at the had a time tet-a-tet, and in the midst ofexchange, smith said i'm out of here and bobby was kind of why? what do you mean? and jerome smith said, you're asking us to give you some information that could be used against the best interests of our cause. i'm here to tell you that we cannot be won over that easily. what do you want of us we're not able to do, and what he meant by that was he thought bobby was looking for a way to get black voices to be more favorable to the kennedy point of on our issues than dr. king had

implied. because jerome smith and what jerome felt, trk imploded. >> yeah. bobby was quite angry and he thought thatthers of us in the room in the mr. jerome smith's attack would be defensive of him, would come to his defense and we didn't. and he thought that that was a breach of iendship. d he threw usut -- he didn't throw us out. we left his home. after that, he called. and he had reflected on the experience. and what dr. king had instructed us to do for me was touched the most sensitive moment in our capacity to win him over. he called and said, i think i may have bee wng on what

jerome smith said because it was on the issue of vietnam. jer rope said that we're asking him to go off and die for this country when his exact words were, i have nothing against reet na espeople. i think it's a war that's unrighteous, it's unworthy. bobby called, went back to him and he said, let's talk. in that conversation that we had, i told him look, you have come from a place where you're so uninformed tha unless those of us who have the challenge by dr. king winning to a moral center, find your moral center is what i'm working on. there's somewhere in you tha must achieve and tt the beer side of your moral sense.

he took that critique rather not so lightly. anyway, from the conversation we had, bobas inspired to go south. when he went south, he began to discover a side of america that he did not know. and he came back and said, i've been south. i've begun -- as a matter of fact, there's a picture of him where listening to the plight of black people from that perspective, he walked up to a black kid and reached for his cheek. and that to me was a moment of transformation. he was touched by what he saw. >> yeah. >> and he was touched in a way that was most profound. >> harry bellefonte, you'r part of history. you're a young guy. you're fantastic to come on the show tonight. thank you, harry bellefonte. >> thank you, chris. >> when we return, let me finish tonight with trump watch. you're watching "hardball." legendary jockey víctor espinoza

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ng tt e president of the united states is wandering around the white house these days talking of pardons. it seems he can't get over this new power of which he's gotten hold. it's like popeye discovering what he can do thanks to a can of spinach. we have to wonder when he'll st mir cue lous new strength his, will he pardon those caught up in the russian

probe, paul rt,ichael flynn or go all the waynd pardon h fmember his daughter, two sons, his son-in-l and how about himself? why not? he says he can do it. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >> tonight on "all in." >> people are really impressed with the job being done at the epa. thank you very much, scott. >> the president defends scott pruitt as his ethics scandal >> ton resignations, recriminations and an epa administrator who isn't denying potentially breaking the law. >> my is an epreur herself. i love -- she loves, we love, chick-fil-a. >> then these text messages ve disturbing. the new stormy dls lawsuit alleging her first law was a you. ette for donald trum >> no you. et. no y