in the week about the special counsel looking into whether paul manafort was involved in witness tampering. also charged today, manafort's long-time russian aide constantine clem nick. this brings the total number of individuals charged in the mueller investigation to 20 and the total number of charges facing trump's one-time campaign chairman to 25. it also serves as another glimpse behind the curtain of the mueller investigation itself where despite the near daily harassment and disparagement from the president, his lawyer and their surrogates and conservative media circles, mueller's investigators are following the facts and finding plenty of evidence of wrongdoing. from that 32-page indictment today, quote, from february 23rd, 2018 and april 2018, the defendants, paul manafort and constantine ka little elm nick knowingly and intentionally conspired to corruptly persuade another person with the intent to influence, delay and prevent

the testimony of any person in an official proceeding. to help us understand the significance of these brand-new indictments and what they mean for the special counsel investigation into russian collusion and obstruction of justice, some of our very best reporters and guests join us now. from "the new york times" mike schmidt. joyce vance former u.s. attorney now law professor at the university of alabama. david chris, assistant attorney general for national security. and with us at the desk washington lemire for the associated press. joyce, let me start with you you and i talked about this witness tampering investigation or allegations against paul manafort. what does it mean? what are today apartmen's indic against paul manafort and constantine mean for those men and the investigation itself? joyce? joyce, can you hear us? joyce can't hear us. let me ask you to pick up the same question, david chris.

what do these charges from -- i'm sorry, against paul manafort mean for the special counsel investigation? >> well, the first thing they mean is that paul manafort is in deep trouble and it's only getting deeper. these two new charges that have been added, obstruction of justice and conspiracy to obstruct justice, are as you said based on the same facts that were used by mueller to try to revoke his bail. so, to put him in jail pending trial. and that's because he and kalemnik reached out to witnesses in europe and allegedly tried to suborn perjury in a way favorable to manafort. >> john that lemire, what's amazing to me is their misconduct is ongoing. i mean, i read through the indictment when it came out. these are for crimes committed between february and april of this year. >> right. these are recent developments.

one would think if you're the defendant facing this sort of scrutiny, this sort of -- investigation that is spawns headlines, biggest story in the world, you might cut it out, and paul manafort to this point hasn't. it shows brazenness and recklessness, he is disregarding the counsel of his attorneys, taking matters in his own hands and making things worse for himself. >> joyce, can you hear us now? >> all back. >> joyce vance won't be able to hear my question. you and i talked about this earlier in the week, the significance of paul manafort and jonathan and i were just talking about this, his misconduct, his crimes are ongoing. what does it mean these new new charges against manafort and his russian aide constantine kalemnik today? >> it is important for a couple reasons, nicolle. this is the first time we've seen mueller put an american citizen together with someone suspect of the of russian ties in the same indiemt. it also shows how really brazen manafort is and perhaps that he

has not taken these charges seriously enough. he does not consider how serious mueller is and capable the investigators are. it sends a strong signal to manafort and others in conduct here, this prosecutorial team runs silent and runs deep. occasionally we see the submarine surface and when it does it's pretty lethal. >> we hear more about you and your colleagues report more frequently about the obstruction of justice investigation. but this seems to be a little peek at what bob mueller may be looking at when it comes to collusion. >> yeah, i mean, it's an interesting fact that manafort different than flynn or anyone else in this case has had a different body posture in the sense he wants to fight this as much as possible. and he says he has nothing to

offer. he wants to take it all the way to court. but this that process, mueller has continued to build against him, continuing to indict him over and over again. he now has two different cases to defend himself against, you know, one in virginia, one here in washington. and the question really is that what is manafort holding out for? is he holding out for a pardon? is he holding out because he thinks he's innocent and can win? that isn't clear, but what is clear, he is determined to fight this more than anyone else in the case, more than any other defendant we've seen. >> you reported on the questions that robert mueller has for donald trump should that presidential interview ever come to pass. and one of those questions is for the president of the united states, what knowledge did you have of any outreach by your campaign, including by paul manafort to russia about potential assistance to the campaign? i think there was another one about changes to the platform. what danger does paul manafort represent at this point with the

posture you've just described legally to the president of the united states? >> well, that's what we really don't know. was manafort simply talking to russians during the campaign about business things that could come afterwards? was he talking to folks that he knew from his time in the ukraine serving as a back channel to them or was it simply just a friendly thing in that's what we don't know. we knew there were messages manafort had sent about discussing with a russian oligarch during the campaign to provide him with a briefing of what was going on. we don't know if it went further than that. we knew at the was in touch with kalemnik during the campaign, meeting with him often. we don't know how he fits into the larger part of the picture. i think the most interesting thing about manafort that i always come back to is that he was there for the don junior meeting. he was there at trump tower in june of 2016 when the russians came offering the dirt on hillary clinton. he claimed the meeting was about adoption, he handed over his notes about that to

congressional investigators. i'm sure mueller has them. the interesting thing would be to know what does he know about that meeting. did he know more about it coming in? who else knew about that meeting. obviously that meeting is an important part of the collusion question. in that sense he could be very helpful to mueller. >> joyce, let me show you. we also know that paul manafort has lied. jonathan lemire used the word brazen. it's a good word to describe this clip and ask you about it on the other side. this is paul manafort at the republican convention. >> are there any ties between mr. trump, you or your campaign and putin and his regime? >> no, there are not. that's absurd and, you know, there's no basis to. >> so, joyce, i was standing next to him when he did that interview doing something i think for morning joe and i remember hearing him say that. nothing could be further from the truth. there are now dozens of known contacts between trump campaign associates and russians, but i wonder if you can pick up on mike schmidt's thread, at the

heart of this collusion question, what did the president know and when did he know it is paul manafort. >> that is absolutely right. manafort could really be the president's best friend or his worst enemy here. if manafort's testimony were to be something along the lines of, i was involved with russians. i had relationships. i manufactured some situations. but the president didn't know anything about it. essentially, i was trying to sucker punch the president. then the president could find himself off the hook here. or manafort's testimony could be something much more sinister tort president's future if he were able to testify about ongoing contacts and perhaps even about clear-cut understandings between the campaign and the russians. so, manafort, as you say, is the wild card and definitely the key to this unfolding mystery. >> david chris, let me ask you to pull back the lens a little bit the fact that 20 people have

been indicted or pleaded guilty. 14 as of this afternoon. bob mueller has guilty pleas from mike flynn, rick gates, papadopoulos and pau nad owe. what is your understanding of the scope and speed of the mueller investigation and how many they have already ensnared and caught guilty or have pleaded guilty of criminal wrongdoing? >> it's been an incredibly productive investigation. he brought charges against a lot of people: he secured several guilty pleas. there is an enormous amount of misconduct that he has apparently unearthed. there is -- i also think a good deal more to come. we've heard a lot of noise from some of the president's proxies and supporters about how he must be or should be in the winding down phase. today's charges against manafort suggest to me at least that there may be a good deal more to

come. bringing in a potential g.r.u. operative or a person with serious ties to russian intelligence, even in the context of this obstruction charge is potentially significant. and we still haven't seen anything from mueller on the g.r.u. sponsored hacking of the democratic national committee and john podesta so i think there is more to come from mueller in the months ahead. >> do you pick up any reporting that there are more charges to come in that category that he's talking about or do you sense more fear in the president's inner circle? >> there's no question that people around the president are nervous. they are monitoring this very closely. they don't know what's next. mueller has played his card so close to the vest he's not telegraphing what's coming at all. also let's remember, the president just this morning on his way to canada -- >> let's put that up. he made a promise like me when i swear off chocolate. i'm heading to canada for talks

that will mostly center on long time unfair trade practice. i won't be talking about the russian witch hunt folks for a while. i should put up a clock to see how long he made it. >> robert mueller had other ideas. here we are talking about it. he won't be able to resist chiming in. this underscores today's development, of course, this is not a hoax. we now have 20 people charged. this is the farthest thing from a witch hunt. this is real. while i don't think bob mueller thinks this way at all, it is a handy reminder for the public also this is something that is ongoing. it is bringing substantive criminal charges of people very close to the president. and again, this investigation is under daily assault from donald trump, from rudy giuliani, from their associates, and to have -- again, mueller doesn't play the p.r. game at all. this is a handy reminder that this is real. and i think that it's clear it's trying to add more pressure on manafort. as mike said he's the hold out here. he has president cut a deal.

he's willing to seemingly for now anyway to fight this. but at some point maybe he has a breaking point, too. manafort who ran trump's campaign for months including during the convention, if mueller believes there is damaging information about the president himself, paul manafort probably has it. >> mike schmidt, do you have a sense the smear campaign against the mueller investigation is to protect themselves from men like paul manafort or like michael cohen flipping? this is the daily parlor game, i guess, you know, is michael cohen under enough pressure to flip, is paul manafort now with 20 charges against him and your paper reported today that manafort has told associates that he believes mr. mueller's team is using business partnerships to pressure him to flip on mr. trump in a similar manner as enron in early 2000s by the justice department task force included by the same lawyers serving on mueller's team? do you get the sense they are preparing for not just smearing the report mueller may present,

but the incriminating testimony from someone like paul manafort? >> they showed a big willingness to go after the witnesses. they spent a lot of time on comey, trying to undermine his credibility. the inspector general's report will help them as they do that. what i found about mueller's filing. unlike rudy giuliani and the president, mueller doesn't say anything. the only way he can speak is through filings is through things like this. and when he does that he's able to establish the investigation, to layout the conduct he has found. he doesn't have the chance. he's not going to hold press conferences, not going to put out press releases. indicting the 13 russians is a way of telling a story. we'll learn more. it will be interesting to see if he puts out more and more documents as possible as a way of getting his side of it out there because he can't talk and he's not going to get in and

fight with giuliani on these sort of smear campaign that's going on against him. >> okay. so, joyce, pick that up and translate this filing which is written by lawyers for a legal proceeding into english for me. what is mueller saying? seems to me he's saying if you commit a crime, i'm gonna get you. >> i think that's right. and i couldn't agree with mike any more. what happens here is this gives mueller a trial, the ability to tell the jury, here are all the things that paul manafort did. and by the way, after we charged him, he went back to the witnesses against him and he tried to get them to cook their stories so that they worked with his so that they presented an innocent version to you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, of paul manafort. juries don't like that kind of behavior by defendants. prosecutors like to have that evidence because it really helps to convince juries that the conduct that defendants engaged in was intentional, that they meant to violate the law and that they did in fact violate it. i think what mueller is doing

here is he is making his case, which was already very strong at least on paper, even stronger. >> joyce, what keeps someone like paul manafort from doing a deal at this point? he's now charged, if he's found guilty of everything he's been charged with, he's facing years -- the rest of his life in prison. what is he holding out for, do you think? >> so, it's an interesting question. it seems likely that there is something out there that paul manafort fears more than he fears the conviction from bob mueller and the special counsel's team. >> i'm dying to know what that is. maybe a russian oligarch. thank you so much for starting us off and spending some time with us. when we come back, donald trump the diplomat where allies are insulted and adversaries are welcomed back into the fold. we'll go inside donald trump's bizarre departure statement this morning and examine america's isolation from one's close allies. also ahead, standing by his man, donald trump doubled down on rudy's comments about porn star stormy daniels. stay with us. we'll be right back.

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donald trump departed for the g7 summit today with all of the enthusiasm of a root canal patient, apparently stalling before getting on the plane to fly to the conference of world leaders he's reportedly dreading. he did a long free wheeling q & a with reporters on topics with frustrations with allies to whereabouts with the first lady to dennis rodman's skill as a basketball player. take a listen. >> european union treats us very

unfairly. canada very unfairly. mexico very unfairly. with that being said, i think we'll probably very easily make a deal. >> were you serious about not needing to prepare for the kim summit? >> i didn't say that. i said i've been preparing all my life. i'm not above the law. i never want anybody to be above the law. the pardon is a big thing for a president. you see the way i'm using them and i have an absolute right to pardon myself. the first lady is great right there. she had a big operation, close to a four-hour operation. she's doing great. right there. no, he wasn't, but i like dennis. a great rebounder. when you think, dennis was a great rebounder and he wasn't relatively speaking that tall. speaking of sports guy, the power to pardon is a beautiful thing. you have to get it right. you have to get the right people. i am looking at muhammad ali, but those are the famous people.

>> from my table unanimously agree the president on dennis rodman basketball skills. there is a lot to unpack there from one comment from the president this morning had a sobering effect the world out. his out of the blue embrace of russia. >> i would recommend -- and it's up to them -- but russia should be in the meeting. it should be a part of it. whether you like it or not -- and it may not be politically correct, but we have a world to run and in the g7 which used to be the g8, they threw russia out. they should let russia come back in because we should have russia at the negotiating table. >> this of course comes after trump has spent days railing against our closest allies and trading partners and as susan glasser puts it in new yorker, trump's america first policy is really turning out to be america alone. joining us now peter baker correspondent for the new york times, susan glasser writer for

new yorker and rick stengel. susan, let me start with you. let me read a little more from it. you write, since trump took office allies have sought to avoid this moment. many have come to realize with growing dread it was inevitable. the rift between the world's great democracy trump portended is coming to pass and it is about far more than a wrong policy, obscure trade provisions or whether germany spends 2% of its gdp on nato. senior europeans speak about it as nothing less than a crisis of the west. yaho >> you know, nicolle, i wrote that this morning before donald trump said russia to join the g7 and make it the g8 again. i'm struck by the fact this is not a drill moment. for a year and a half we've been talking about what would be the consequence of the unraveling of the world order and i felt

listening to president trump this morning that what we were hearing was an american president who fundamentally has a very, very different view of the world than his predecessors, both democratic and republican. this is a president this morning who basically said, i don't really care about democracies or human rights or even kind of rules of the road and a law-based approach to the world. what i want is great powers regardless of what kind of actors they are on the world stage to sit down and carve up the world among themselves. a very like 19th century view of things although i'm not sure donald trump would phrase it that way. >> and, peter baker, it hasn't been without kongs kweconsequen. he's now been acting this way long enough for our allies to have adjusted. i want to read you french president emmanuel macron's tweet. america may not mind being isolated but we do not mind

leaving them out. they represent a market that has the weight of history behind it and which is now a true international force. let me just speak to the elephant in the room. obviously i worked in the bush white house. you covered it when the iraq war caused a rift over counter terror policy, over a lot of foreign policy. americans don't like when their president carries out a foreign policy that isolates them from the rest of the world, especially when that isolation is from our best and longest and most loyal friends on the world stage. >> well, that's right. but that rift in the 2000s that you talk about, it was very serious obviously. but it was over essentially one major issue which is to say the iraq war. that was the essence of that rift. it didn't mean george w. bush the president was going around trash talking his allies. he didn't do that. >> to the contrary, you and i both traveled around the world with him. but i was in the meetings, you know, where privately they agreed on 90% of what they had to deal with, trade and other

issues. but my point was when they had a disagreement, it made americans feel isolate and had that is very uncomfortable for a lot of americans. >> well, i think a point is that this dispute between president trump and our allies is different of and the difference is it is over a whole world view. it is over our understanding of the liberal international order, the rule based order, our understanding of how the system of globalization is working. we are now on a very different page from them, a broad philosophy of how the world should run. not just over a particular issue like the iraq war as big as that was. i think that's what you're seeing going on in canada. >> let me read you a little more from susan's piece. it's fantastic. >> a great piece. >> i read it on your twitter feed. as trump's dramatic moves have played out this spring and hardened into a presidential narrative, senior government officials in london, berlin and other european capitals and in washington have told me they now

worry that trump may be a greater immediate threat to the alliance than even authoritarian great power rivals such as russia and china. equally striking is the extent to which america's long-term allies have no real strategy for coping with the challenges posed by such an american president. rick stengel, where do we go from here? >> what you're describing and susan described in that great phrase is a crisis of the west. vladimir putin has been opposed to the west and western values since he came into office. here's how he sees the world. everything the allies did after world war ii at brett enwoods and the creation of all these institutions, the world bank, the imf, et cetera, all of it was organized against russia. everything, the alliance did after the fall of the berlin wall where they brought the baltics into nato, they expanded nato, they set up missile systems, was against russia. his dream is to have an american president who will unravel the western world order which he sees as a conspiracy against

russia. so, the return on his investment for supporting donald trump is very high. >> so, why do we have a debate in this country whether or not donald trump is in the pocket of vladimir putin? he has already achieved his aims as susan reports in this excellent piece. he has america separate from the rest of our allies. we were a strong and important and dare i say part of an alliance. putin already won. is the president unaware of that or was that his intention? >> putin got what he wanted as if he scripted it. did he actually hand those page s to donald trump and say read these words? >> how do we know he didn't? >> we don't know. that is what bob mueller and others are investigating. this is clear the way the president, whether he's doing this at putin's bidding or not remains to be seen, but he views the world in a different way than his predecessors. he thinks nothing of going on twitter this morning and bashing some of our oldest closest allies. he advocates for putin skpin russia to be put back into the

g7 and be g8. they were kicked out for hostile aggression in crimea and other places. there is a reason why it's g7, mr. president. there is a reason why there will be great reluctance to bring russia back to restore it to g8. the way the president at this point disagrees with his allies on so many different issues, asthma chron wrote we read from the tweet, it's a better chance it will be a g6 than g8. >> here's the danger with putin with trump. trump represents chaos. putin likes chaos. russia feels most secure when everyone else feels most insecure. trump is so unpredictable. he doesn't see the world in that balance of power way susan said from 19th century. he sees it from a spoiled child guy. he can turn from a guy who is his ben factor. that's what worries putin. >> peter baker, let me put you on the spot. do you know if john bolt ton or secretary of state pompeo was going to advocate for adding

russia back into the g8? >> that's a great question. if you watch the video, you watch him talking it seems like an off the cuff comment. we understand sometimes they're not. sometimes they're things noodling around the president's head for awhile and he's brought up in private meetings. i don't happen to know whether he has in this case. i have to say ambassador bolton and certainly secretary pompeo probably would not agree with this if they were in tharj. ambassador bolton would come to moscow when we were based there. he was a skeptical person when he came to russia. he was ng somebody who looked into putin's soul and saw somebody who was a partner. he saw somebody he thought was an adversary. it's hard for me to imagine he thinks this is a good idea. they work for mr. trump and recognize they have to follow his lead. things are said and they're not going to happen. it's making people unhappy, disrupting things, causing a

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rudy's great, but rudy is rudy. but rudy is doing a very good job actually. doing a very good -- >> -- >> he said what? >> -- >> i'm not going to disagree with him on that. >> welcome to 2018. president trump doubling down seeming to approve of giuliani's comments yesterday about stormy daniels as the associated press's jonathan lemire reports. trump has told allies despite some mistakes, he's glad to have giuliani on board as an attack dog and dominating the news coverage. we need to drive this story,

giuliani said. you have to go on and be willing to take the arrows especially if you're going to deliver more arrows. well, not everyone agrees with rudy as "the new york times" peter baker points out. president trump hired rudy giuliani to speak for him but no less than mr. trump's wife and his chief diplomat spent thursday explaining mr. giuliani does not always know what he's talking about. melania trump let it be known mr. giuliani has no idea how she feels about stormy daniels, while secretary of state mike pompeo made clear giuliani has nothing to do with north korea policy. joining jonathan and rick and me at the table, the rev al sharpton president of the national action network and host of politics nation here on msnbc and serena maximum well former clinton campaign organizer and progressive programming for sirius xm. let's start with your reporting on rudy. how goes it? never said that before. an american president weighing in on whether a porn staffer is or is not honorable.

>> when rudy giuliani extinction to the mueller investigation, the president has been very pleased. there have been miss steps as illustrated there. the comment about stormy daniels and the first lady. -- >> miss steps, he talked about trump funneling money with women he had sex with. >> he's here to muddy the waters. we can agree to that. the president wanted a vocal force out there combatting the michael avenattis of the world who have been dominating cable news coverage. he wanted somebody out there to be his proponent what giuliani has done is hit upon something relatively clear. bob mueller doesn't say anything. he will not comment on any development in this probe so, therefore, giuliani is out there trying to set the goal post. he's the one conveying, if you will, what the special counsel said to him, or he's interpreting it, suggesting this will wrap up by september 1st. suggesting if there is a presidential interview it will be limited in scope and scale. bob mueller is not saying any of

that. rudy's audience is not the courtroom, but by trying to change the goal post, his audience is he believes at the end of the day, mueller is going to write a report that will eventually get to congress and eventually be made public. congress will have to make a decision on impeachment proceedings. if rudy has applied pressure to them, the voters they answer 20, he's trying to change the equation. peter, let me bring you and maggie haberman's conversation into this as well. the reason the president had to stand on that 18 acre complex and answer a question whether or not being a porn star is honorable or not is because judy giuliani said in israel yesterday it wasn't. there was a lot of backlash. the president allegedly sought out stormy daniels as a sexual partner. we're having this conversation because this is someone the president invited into his world. what do you think the president's degree of awareness is about all of the ripple effect, all of the fallout, all

of the humiliation for the people in his own family, people in his own lives for rudy's mishap s? >> that's a great question. i would love to be a fly on the wall when he and the first lady talk about rudy giuliani, she made it clear i've never spoken to rudy giuliani, the spokesperson said on behalf of the first lady. that is an authorized statement. that's something you don't hear every day from the first lady. it's not just that rudy giuliani is my spokesman. she is affirming his assertion she believes her husband's assessment of things. maybe she was affirming, and she was given every opportunity to. >> you have to understand rudy giuliani's role is exactly what he's doing, play the bully, play to someone he's not going to answer. it's typical new york politics. it's how rudy was mayor.

rudy wouldn't talk to anybody that didn't agree with him. he would bully and fight in the public any issue, so, in many ways trump and rudy are the same type which is why trump has rudy. the real story here to me is if trump was totally innocent or knew that there was nothing there, he wouldn't be muddying the atmosphere. he'd have a legal team that would surgically be dealing with why he shouldn't be under these investigations or whether it's not going. the fact he needs all this muddying means there's something there. >> the rev brings up a good point. bloomberg reports rudy giuliani is yet to general yuli affect the course of robert mueller's probe. two months after joining trump's legal team, giuliani isn't yet seen as a power player with the legal authority to go up against mueller's team of career prosecutors. he may be speaking loudly to the

public but he's not speaking the language of mueller's world which comes in the form of legal filings, case law and investigative evidence. giuliani has only met with mueller once. he may be achieving what you describe to be the goal, the public relations effect but clearly if the president wasn't afraid, he wouldn't be tweeting about the russian witch hunt every day. >> absolutely. i think rudy wants us to be talking about whether a porn star is a good or bad profession as opposed to the court filing we saw today and the soup he seeding indictment filed today. they don't want us to talk about the facts in the russia investigation. they don't want us to talk about the fact the date in today's filing was february 23rd, just so happens to be the same day rick gates pled guilty and decided to cooperate. so, i think that trump is clearly very concerned about where this investigation is going and that hasn't changed and now he has a tv lawyer who can say the things that he really wants to say but can't because it would put him in a more dangerous legal position.

>> the most dangerous place in the universe is someone between donald trump and a camera. right now that's rudy giuliani. the half-life of rudy giuliani stay in the white house, i don't know what it is. donald trump doesn't like someone to be on tv more than he does. he violated a rule, never hire a principle to represent a principle. rudy giuliani is in israel on what is a paid speaking gig. he's being paid by a private place. he's speaking for the president while he's there. what are the ethics of that? and by the way, should he be allowed to take public speaking gigs like that while he's representing the white house? someone should look into that. >> peter baker, do you have any thoughts on that? >> well, that's a great question. i don't know the answer. he's a private lawyer. he's not on the white house staff. in that sense private lawyers can represent him and do other

business. it raises questions. i think the conference was sponsored by a newspaper, the globe's newspaper over there. i don't know too much of the conference. he seems to be talking about broadening the mandate of the policy. he was there not to talk about stormy daniels. he what asked about north korea. he said kim jong-un came begging on his knees to have the meeting with the president reinstated. that's a complication. he said palestinian should be the same thing. that's beyond his brief there. >> have you heard of scott pruitt? all right. we have to sneak in a break. peter baker thank you for spending time with us. the president on a pardon bender. we'll show you his comments about the thousands, thousands of pardons under consideration. there is no going back. everything's changed. we're not on an island anymore.

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i would get more thrill out of pardoning people that nobody knows like alice yesterday.

i thought kim kardashian was great because she brought alice to my attention. alice was so great. and the way she left that jail and the tears and the love that she has with her family, i mean, to me that was better than any celebrity that i can pardon. so, we're looking at it, but we are looking at literally thousands of names of people that have come to our attention that have been treated unfairly or where their sentence is far too long. >> thousands of names including this one. >> i am thinking about muhammad ali. >> what will it take -- >> in fact, we're doing right now recommendations on -- frankly we're doing recommendations on muhammad ali. >> that's like casting call for "american idol." fact check here. muhammad ali had his criminal conviction overturned by the supreme court nearly 50 years ago. a lawyer for the late champ said he doesn't actually need a

pardon. trump's focus on pardons didn't stop there. it floated on nfl players who take a knee during the national anthem. >> you shouldn't go in a locker room when our national anthem is played. i am going to ask all of those people to recommend to me -- because that's what they're protesting -- people that they think were unfairly treated by the justice system. and i understand that. and i'm going to ask them to recommend to me people that were unfairly treated, friends of theirs or people that they know about and i'm going to take a look at those applications. and if i find and my committee finds that they're unfairly treated, then we will pardon them or at least let them out. >> so, he's going to have those sons of pitches recommend people for pardons, rev. >> who are taking knees because of injustice, but he's going to get their names that they want to recommend about injustice. i mean, we saw donald trump a

complete inept in this area. first of all, you can't pardon a guy the supreme court already overturned the conviction. >> muhammad ali, right. >> second, what committee told him to pardon d'souza last week? owe joe arpaio, what committee cleared is that? if there are players protesting on those issues, bring him and his committee, what committee? and there are thousands of names we're looking at. there have been thousands of names for year. obama pardoned more than the last 11 presidents. there are many names there. but you needed kim kardashian to bring you that name. you needed stallone to bring you jack johnson. so now you need some nfl super stars to bring you some more names and you would think about it. probably till after the midterms because he's really trying to play a bait and switch with a lot of voters. it's absolutely ridiculous. i think alice should have gotten

out and she's on politics nation with me sunday morning. but the issue is what are we talking about here? a man that doesn't know you can't pardon a man that doesn't need a pardon? we're being played with here. >> by the way, muhammad ali did a whole lot more than take a knee like the nfl players. he went to jail for refusing to fight in a war. >> and lost his career. not only that, if you're going to pardon muhammad ali if he was one that could do it, muhammad ali stood up because of his muslim faith. here's the man, the proponent of muslim bans, one of the greatest islamophobia pardon ali, someone who is what he's opposed to. >> we're dancing around something that is uncomfortable reality. presidents are in my opinion too stingy with the power to pardon. there are a lot of people deserving of pardons. the issue here is the president's motive. you know, football players on

your knee, bring me your names. kim kardashian did something great. this isn't about -- in its own way this is norm busting with a mixed result. i think pardoning more people might be a good thing, but this is not being done from a place of mercy or of deliberate thoughtfulness or review of the cases. jeb bush had the power to pardon. i sat through the cases. they were wrenching, they were character witnesses. that is not the president's role. he even managed to debase i process where good may come of it. he likes the support he gets when he does do the pardons. he liked the positive headlines. thank you for pardoning alice because it was the right thing to do. but i think all of this is just setting the stage for when he does pardon people who are associated with the campaign and involved in the russia investigation, he not wants us to shrug when he does that. he wants us to feel pardons are

a normal thing that happen every single day. when you pardon paul manafort, jared kushner, go down the line, we're going to shrug and i hope wedo. >> we are not slugging. we were not going anywhere. we have to pause, but this conversation is going to keep going. don't even get up for water. we'll be right back. tonight could decide the nba national championship. but will the winning team be welcomed at the white house? (vo) we came here for the friends. and we got to know the friends of our friends. and we found others just like us. and just like that we felt a little less alone. but then something happened. we had to deal with spam, fake news, and data misuse. that's going to change. from now on, facebook will do more to keep you safe and protect your privacy. because when this place does what it was built for, then we all get a little closer.

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i mean, i know no matter who wins this series, no one wants the invite anyway. it won't be goldan state or cleveland going. >> i agree with bryan. pretty sure the way we handled things last year kind of stay consistent with that. every team has an opportunity to make a decision for themselves and speak for themselves, and i think that's powerful. you know, being in this situation. >> that happened first. and then today the president of the united states said, you are not invited to my party anyway. rev? >> i mean, i think that we are in a real cultural shift. when you are seeing team after team saying they don't want to go to the white house. i mean, this is unprecedented. you are talking to somebody that spent decades protesting. and i have never seen where you have got this kind of turndown to the president of the united states across the board.

and it's really telling how divisive he is. >> do we have coach kerr's sound as well? so coach kerr, the warriors' coach -- hopefully they are on their way to winning the championship said i'm blown away by the irony of the eagles being disinvited when you read about their good deese deeds in their communities really trying to get at the root of some of the issues we have, instead we have military sing alongs at the white house to show how patriotic we are even though we don't know the words. incredible. that's coach kerr filling the leadership void. why those words couldn't come out of the mouth of a paul ryan or a mitch mcconnell or some republican with some steel in his spine who can say what everyone knows to be true. it is remarkable that it's figure from other reins, basketball, in sports, figures in culture who are filling this vacuum. >> i think the reverend is right. it is a cultural shift. it's not just any athlete, not

just the collin capper nicks. but it's the most successful athletes. lebron james, arguably the greatest basketball player ever. >> easy, easy. talking to a steph curry girl here. >> i say that with some level of authority. i would say that that's an important piece. lebron james has incredible influence across generations, across races. arguably, across the entire country. and i think that it goes to show that the president is not just divisive. there is something about -- >> is these guys are moral leaders in a way in a the president does not -- >> they are filling the vacuum it has left. >> steve kerr for president, lebron for vice president. >> is steph. >> secretary of state. >> yeah. >> trump was nervous that only a few eagles were going to show up. football are far larger than basketball teams. he want nod part of this. they made the decision for him. we have to sneak in our very last break. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin,

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>> well, i think it's not good for the nba if the warriors win in four. >> i think the people are going to have to be as good as the warriors. i'm not trash talking just yet. but you know. >> celtics next year, baby. >> beat them. >> celtics next year. >> beat them if you want it to go longer. >> that does it for my hour. my thanks to the panel. i'm nicolle wallace, "mtp daily" starts right now. hi katy. >> happy friday. >> happy friday. >> if it's friday, mueller keeps charging forward. tonight, special counsel bob mueller hits paul manafort with another indictment. how far will the ripple effect of the new charges reach? plus, why is the president so gripped by his pardon power? i'm not above the law. i never want anybody to be above the law. and yes, i do have an absolute right to pardon myself. and friendly fire. how president trump is