thank you so much for being here with us and good night from nbc news headquarters in new york. it's 4:00 in new york. breaking news in the mueller investigation. new charges filed today against paul manafort, the president's one-time campaign chairman. he is facing new charges of conspiracy to obstruct justice and obstruction of justice. these charges stemming from reports we brought you earlier in the week about the special counsel looking into whether paul manafort was involved in witness tampering. also charged today, manafort's long-time russian aid, konstantin calminik.

it serves as another glimpse behind the curtain of the mueller investigation where despite the near daily harassment and disparagement from the president, his lawyer and surrogates in conservative media circles, mueller's investigators are finding ed of wrongdoing. from that 32 page indictment, today "from february 23, 2018 and april, 2018, the defendants, paul manafort and konstantin kilimnik conspired to persuade with the intent to influence, delay and prevent the testimony of any person in an official proceeding. to help us understand the significance of these new indictments and what they mean for the special counsel investigation into russian collusion and obstruction of justice, some of our very best reporters and guests join us now. from the "new york times," mike schmidt, joyce vance, former u.s. attorney, now law professor at the university of alabama. david chris, former assistant

attorney general for national security and with us at the desk, jonathan lemire, white house reporter for the associated press. joyce vance, let me start with you. i believe we talked about this witness tampering investigation or allegations against paul manafort. what do today's indictments against paul manafort and konstantin kilimnik mean? joyce can you hear us? joyce can't hear us. let me ask you to pick up the same question, david chris. what are these charges from -- against paul manafort mean for the special counsel investigation? >> well, the first thing they mean is that paul manafort is in deep trouble and it's getting deeper. these two new charges that have been added -- obstruction of justice and conspiracy to obstruct justice are as you said based on the same facts that were used by mueller to try to revoke his bail so to put him in jail pending trial and that's

because he and kilimnik reached out to somes beens in europe and allegedly tried to suborn perjury to try to get them to lie in a way that would be favorable to manafort. so he's not doing himself favors in the way he's been behaving since he came under indictment. >> jonathan lemire, what's so amazing to me is that their misconduct is ongoing. i read through the indictment when it came out. these are for crimes committed between february and april of this year. >> right, these are recent developments. one would think if you are the defendant facing this sort of scrutiny and this investigation that spawns headlines, the biggest story in the world, you might cut it out. and paul manafort hasn't. it shows a brazenness and a recklessness that he is clearly, one would assume, disregarding the counsel of his own attorneys, taking matters into his own hands and making things worse for himself. >> joyce, can you hear us now? >> all better. >> i have nightmares about this, that joyce vance won't be able

to hear my questions. you and i talked about this earlier in the week. the significance of paul manafort and jonathan and i were just talking about this, his mission conduct, his crimes are ongoing. what does it mean, these new charges against paul manafort and kilimnik. >> this is the first time we've seen mueller put an american citizen together with someone suspected of russian ties in the same indictment. it shows how brazen manafort is and perhaps he has not fully anticipated how committed mueller's prosecutors are and i think this new indictment as well as the motion to revoke his bond sends a strong signal not just to manafort but to everyone else involved in misconduct here that this is a prosecutorial team that runs silent and deep and occasionally we see the

submarine surface and when it does, it's lethal. >> and mike schmidt, we hear more about you and your colleagues reporting more frequently about the obstruction of justice investigation but this seem to be a peek at what bob mueller may be looking at when it comes to collusion. >> >> it's interesting the fact that manafort different than flynn or anyone else has had a different body posture in a sense he wants to fight this as much as possible. he says he has nothing to offer, he wants to take it to court. but in that process, mueller has continued to build against him, continuing to indict him. he has two different cases to defend himself against, one in virginia, one in washington and the question is what is manafort holding out? is he holding out for a pardon? is he holding out because he's innocent and wants to take it to trial and thinks he can win?

what is clear is he is determined to fight this more than any other defendant we've seen in the case. >> you reported on the questions that robert mueller has for donald trump suld that presidential interview ever come to pass and one of those questions is for the president of the united states "what knowledge did you have of any outreach by your campaign, including by paul manafort, to russia about potential assistance to the campaign? s --" i think there was another about changes to the platform. what danger does paul manafort represent with the posture you've described legally to the president of the united states? >> well, that's what we don't know. was manafort simply talking to russians during the campaign about business things that could come afterwards, was he talking to folks he knew from his time the ukraine serving as a back channel to them or was it simply a friendly thing. that's what we don't know. we knew there were messages that manafort had sent about connecting with the russian oligarch during the campaign to provide him with the briefing

about what was going on. we don't know if it went further than that. we -- we knew he was in touch with kilimnik throughout the campaign meeting with kilimnik, talking to him often but we don't know more than that. we don't know how he fits into the larger part of the picture. the most interesting thing about manafort that i come back to is that he was there for the don jr. meeting. he was there at trump tower in june of 2016 when the russians came offering the dirt on hillary clinton. he claimed the meeting was about adoption, he handed over his notes to congressional investigators, i'm sure mueller has them. the interesting thing would be what does he know about that meeting? did he know more about it coming in? who else knew? obviously that meeting is an important part of the collusion question so in that sense he could be very helpful to mueller. >> joyce, let me show you -- we know manafort has lied, jonathan lemire used the word brazen. this is paul manafort at the republican convention.

>> are there any ties between mr. trump, you, or your campaign and putin and his regime? >> no, there are not, that's absurd and there's no base to it. >> so joyce i was standing next to him when he did that interview doing something for "morning joe" and i remember hearing him say that. . nothing could be further from the truth. i wonder if you could pick up on at the heart of what did the president know and when did he know it is paul manafort. >> that's absolutely right. manafort could be the president's best friend or his worst enemy here. if manafort's testimony were to be something along the lines of i was involved with russians, i had relationships, i manufactured some situations, but the president didn't know anything about it, essentially i was trying to sucker punch the

president, then the president could find himself off the hook here. or manafort's testimony could be something much more sinister for the president's future if he were able to testify about ongoing contacts and perhaps clear-cut understanding between the campaign and the russians so manafort, as you say, is the wild card and definitely the key to this unfolding mystery. >> david chris, let me ask you to pull back the lens and tell me what you make of the fact that 20 people have been indicted or pleaded guilty in the russia investigation, that includes 13 russian nationals, i guess 14 as of this afternoon, bob mueller lass guilty pleas from michael flynn, rick gates, george papadopoulos, alex van der zwaan and richard pinedo. what's your take on where the mueller investigation stands in terms of scope and speed and how many people they've ensnared and caught guilty or have pleased guilty of criminal wrongdoing?

>> it's been an incredibly productive investigative and prosecutorial effort when judged against historical standards. he's brought charges against a lot of people, secured several different guilty pleas and there's an enormous about of misconduct that he's unearthed. there is also a good deal more to come. we've heard a lot of noise from the president's proxies and supporters about how he must be or should be in the winding down face. today's charges against manafort suggest to me at least there may be a good deal more to come, bringing in a potential gru operative, even in the context of this obstruction charge is significant and we haven't seen anything from mueller on the gru-sponsored hacking of the democratic national committee and john podesta so i think there's more to come from mueller in the months ahead. >> do you pick up any reporting that there are more charges to come in that category he's

talking about or do you sense more fear in the president's inner circle? >> there's no question people around the president are nervous. they don't know what's next. mooufrl has played his cards so close to the vest he's not telegraphing what's coming at all. let's remember the president on his way to canada -- >> let's put that up. he made a promise. this is like me when i swear off chocolate. he said "i'm heading to canada for the g7 talks that will center on the long time unfair trade practices against the u.s. from there i go to singapore and talks with north korea on denuclearization. i won't be talking about the russian witch-hunt hoax for a whi while." i thought we should put up a clock to see how long we made. >> it well, robert mueller had other ideas because here we are talking about it. the president won't be able to resist chiming in. this is not a hoax, we have 20 people charged. this is the farthest thick from a witch-hunt, this is real.

and while i don't think bob mueller thinks this, it's a handy reminder for the public that this is something ongoing, bringing charges against people close to the president and this investigation is under daily assault from donald trump, from rudy giuliani, from their associates and mueller doesn't play the pr game but this is a handy reminder that this is real and i think it's clear that we're trying to add more pressure on manafort. he's the hold out. he hasn't cut a deal. he's willing to seemingly for now anyway to fight this but at some point maybe he has a breaking point too and certainly manafort who ran donald trump's campaign, if mueller believes there's damaging information about the president himself manafort probably has it. >> do you have a sense the smear campaign against the mueller investigation is to protect themselves from men like paul manafort or michael cohen flipping? this is the daily parlor game,

is michael cohen under enough pressure to flip? is paul manafort with 20 charges against him? your paper reported today that manafort told associates he believes mr. mueller's team is using business partners to pressure him to flip on mr. trump in a manner similar to the one used to prosecute enron in the early 2000 by justice department task force that included the same lawyers serving on mueller's team. do you get the sense that they are preparing for not only smearing that but also the testimony from someone like paul manafort? >> they've shown a willingness to go after the witnesses. they spent a lot of time on comey. they believe the inspector generals report will help them but what i found interesting about mueller's filing is that unlike rudy giuliani and the president, mueller doesn't say anything, and the only way he can speak is through filings, through things like this and

when he does that he is able to establish the investigation, to lay out the conduct he has found. he doesn't have the chance, he's not going to hold press conference conferences. he's going to speak in his filings and we've seen in the past like the one where he inindictment it had 13 russians as a way of him telling a story. and it will be interesting to see if he continues to put out more and more documents as a way to get his side of it out there because he can't talk and he won't get in and fight with giuliani on the smear campaign going on against him. >> joyce, pick that up and translate this filing which is written by lawyers for a legal proceeding into english. it seems as if mueller is say if you commit a crime i'm going to get you. >> i think that that's right and i couldn't agree with mike anymore. this gives mueller at trial the ability to tell the jury here are the things that paul manafort did and by the way

after we charged him he went back to the witnesses and tried to get them to cook their story so they work with his. so they present an innocent version to you, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, of paul manafort. juries don't like that kind of behavior by defendants. prosecutors like to have that evidence because it helps to convince juries that the conduct defendants engaged in was intentional, that they meant to violate the law and that they did, in fact, violate it. i think what mueller is doing here is he is making his case which was strong on paper even stronger. >> what keeps paul manafort from doing a deal? if he's found guilty he's facing the rest of his life in prison. what is he holding out for do you think? >> it's an interesting question. it seems likely there is something out there that paul

manafort fears more than he fears conviction from bob mueller's and the special counsel's team. >> i'm dying to know what that is. maybe a russian oligarch. mike schmidt, joyce vance and kris, thank you. donald trump the diplomat and add vwhere allies are insul. also ahead, standing by his man, donald trump doubles down on rudy's comments about porn star stormy daniels. stay with us. we'll be right back. ck gary, who's already won three cars, two motorcycles, a boat, and an r.v. i would not want to pay that insurance bill. [ ding ] -oh, i have progressive, so i just bundled everything with my home insurance. saved me a ton of money. -love you, gary! -you don't have to buzz in. it's not a question, gary. on march 1, 1810 -- [ ding ] -frédéric chopin. -collapsing in 226 -- [ ding ] -the colossus of rhodes. -[ sighs ] louise dustmann -- [ ding ] -brahms' "lullaby," or "wiegenlied." -when will it end? [ ding ]

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donald trump departed for the g7 summit today with all of the enthusiasm of a root canal patient, apparently stalling before getting on the plane to fly to the conference of world leaders he's reportedly dreading. he did a long and free-wheeling q&a with reporters and made almost a dozen different headlines on a wide range of topics from his frustration with our allies to the whereabouts of the first lady to dennis rodman's skill as a basketball player. listen. the european union treats us very unfairly. canada very unfairly. mexico very unfairly. with that being said, i think we'll probably very easily make a deal. >> reporter: were you serious about not needing to prepare for the singapore summit? >> i didn't say that. i said i've been preparing all my life. i'm not above the law. i never want anybody to be above the law but pardons are a positive thing for the president. i think you see the way i'm using them and yes i have an absolute right to pardon myself.

the first lady is great right there. she had a big operation. it was a four hour operation and she's doing great. no, he wasn't but i like dennis. a great rebounder. dennis was a great rebounder and he wasn't relatively speaking that tall. speaking of sports stars. the power to pardon is a beautiful thing, you have to get it right, you have to get the right people. i am looking at muhammed ali, but those are famous people. >> my table unanimously agreed with the president on dennis rodman's basketball skills but there's a lot to unpack. one comment from the president had a sobering effect the world over, his out-of-the-blue embrace of russia. >> i would recommend and it's up to them but russia should be in the meeting. it should be a part of it. whether you like it or not, and it may not be politically

correct, but we have a world to run and in the g7, which used to be the g8, they threw russia out. they should let russia come back in because we should have russia at the negotiating table. >> this comes after trump spend days railing against our closest allies and trading partners. as susan glasser puts it in the "new yorker," trump's america first policy is turning out to be america alone. joining us now, peter baker, susan glasser, now writer for the "new yorker" and rick tse stengal. let me start with you and your fantastic piece, susan. you write "ever since trump took office, america's allies have sought to avoid this moment. over the last year and a half, many have come to realize with growing dread that it was inevitab inevitable. the rift between the world's great democracies that trump's election portended is coming to pass and it's about far more than iran policy, obscure trade provisions or whether germany spends 2% of its gdp on nato.

many senior european officials speak of it as nothing less than a crisis of the west. >> nicolle, i wrote that before donald trump this morning said that russia should rejoin the g7 and make it the g8 again. you know, i'm struck by the fact that this really is our kind of this is not a drill moment. for a year and a half we've been talking about what would be the consequences of the unraveling of the world order and i felt listening to president trump that what we are hearing was an american president who has a very different view of the world than his predecessors both democratic and republican. this is a president who basically said i don't care about democracies or human rights or even rules of the road and a law-based approach to the world. what i want is great powers regardless of what kind of actors they are in the world

stage to sit down and carve up the world amongst themselves. itis's 19th century view of the world. >> peter baker, he's now been acting this way long enough for our allies to have adjusted. i want to read you french president emmanuel macron's tweet this morning "america may not mind being isolated but neither do we mind leaving america out. the american president may not mind being isolated, we don't mind signing a six country agreement if need be. these sick countries represent values and the weight of history behind it which is now a true international force." let me speak to tell antifa in t -- to the elephant in the room. americans don't like when their president carries out a foreign policy that isolates them from the rest of the world ss

especially when the isolation is from our oldest friends. >> that rift was serious but it was other the iraq war. it didn't mean george w. bush, the president, was going around trash talking his allies. >> and to the contrary. you and i both traveled around the world with him but i was in the meetings where privately they agreed on 90% of what they had to deal with, trade and other issues but when they had a disagreement it made americans feel isolated and that is very uncomfortable the point is this dispute is different and the difference is it is over a whole world view. it's overour understanding of the liberal international order, it's our understanding of how the system of globalization is

working. we're on a different page from them on a broad philosophy over how the world should be run. and that's what you're seeing going on in canada. >> let me read you more from susan's piece. >> it's a great piece. >> i read it on your twitter feed. "as trump's dramatic moves have played out this spring and hardened into a presidential narrative of american victimization at the hands of a free riding ally, senior government officials in london, berlin and other european capitals and in washington have told me they now worry that trump may be a greater immediate threat to the alliance than even authoritarian great power rivals such as russia and china. equally striking is the extent to which america's long-term allies have no idea how to deal with the challenges. >> what you're describing is a crisis of the rest and vladimir putin has been opposed to the west and western values since he

came into office. here's how he sees the world. everything the allies did after ward war two at bretton woods and the creation of these institutions, the world bank, the imf, et cetera, all of it was organized against russia. everything the alliance did after the fall of the berlin wall where they expanded nato and set up missile systems was against russia. his dream is to have an american president who will unravel the western world order which he sees as a conspiracy against vosh the return on his investment for supporting donald trump is high. >> why do we have a debate about whether or not donald trump is in the pocket of vladimir putin. he's already achieved his aims as susan reports in this excellent piece, he's got america separate. we were a strong and important and dare i say vital part of that alliance. putin has won. is the president aware of that? >> the question remains.

putin got what he wanted. but did he hand those pages to donald trump and say read those words? >> how do we know he didn't? >> we don't. that's what bob mueller and others are investigating but whether he's doing this at putin's bidding remains to be seen but he views the world in a different way. he thinks nothing of going on twitter and bashing some of our old oldest closest allies. russia was kicked out of the g8 for hostile aggression in crimea and other places. there's a reason why it's the g7, mr. president, and there's a reason why there will be great reluctance to bring back russia to restore it to the g8 and the way the president disagrees with his allies on so many different issues, as we read from macron's tweet, there's a better chance it will be a g6 than g8. >> here's the danger for putin

with trump. trump represents chaos. putin likes chaos. russia feels most secure when everyone else feels most insecure. but trump is so unpredictable. he doesn't see the world in the balance of power way, he just sees it from a spoiled child way and he can turn against the guy who is his benefactor just like that. >> peter baker, do you know if john bolton or secretary of state pompeo knew donald trump was going advocate for adding russia back into the g8? >> if you watch the video, it seems like an off-the-cuff comment but sometimes they're not. they've sometimes been noodling around the president's head for a while. i don't know whether he has but i have to say that ambassador bolton and secretary pompeo would probably not agree with this ambassador bolton was a

skeptical person when it came to russia, he was not somebody who looked into putin's soul and saw a partner, he saw somebody who he thought was an adversary so it's hard to imagine but they're working for president trump and they have to follow his lead and they recognize things like this can be said and won't happen so it's a matter of making people unhappy and causing tumult. >> hopefully someone will get on the plane and tell where you say crimea is. susan glasser, congratulations on the piece. >> thank you so much. when we come back, the president's lawyer speaks for him, except when he does it. new reporting on rudy's role as the presidential pit bull and the potential pitfalls for the president. yeah, my dad says our insurance doesn't have that. what?! you can leave worry behind when liberty stands with you™.

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>> rudy's great but rudy is rudy. but rudy is doing a very good job, actually. doing a very good job. >> is being a porn star respectable work? he said it's not. >> he said what? >> reporter: he said being a porn star is not respectable work. >> i'm not going to disagree with him on that. welcome to 2018. president trump doubling down seeming to approve of rudy giuliani's comments yesterday about stormy daniels as the associate press's jonathan lemire reports, trump told allies that despite mistakes, he's glad to have giuliani on board as an attack dog dominating the news coverage.

"we need to drive this story" giuliani said. you have to go on and take the arrows if you're going to deliver more arrows." not everyone agrees with rudy as the "new york times" peter baker points out. "president trump hired rudy giuliani to speak for him but no less than mr. trump's wife and his chief diplomat spent thursday explaining that mr. giuliani does not always know what he's talking about. melania trump let it be known that mr. giuliani has no idea how she feels about stormy daniels while secretary of state mike pompeo made clear that giuliani has nothing to do with north korea policy." joining me and jonathan and rick at the table, the rev al sharpton, president of the national action network and host of politics nation and zerlina maxwell, former clinton campaign adviser, now director of progressive programming for sirius xm. let's start with your reporting on rudiment how goes it? >> well -- >> i never thought i'd see that befo before an american president weighing in on whether it is or

isn't honorable. >> when giuliani sticks to the mueller investigation the president has been pleased. there have been missteps as illustrated there, the comment about stormy daniels. >> missteps? his first appearance he talked about trump funneling money to women he's had sex with. >> but he is here to muddy the waters. we can agree he's done that. the president wanted a vocal force out there combatting the michael avenattis of the world who have been dominating cable news coverage. with giuliani he recognizes that bob mueller doesn't say anything. he will not comment on any development so there fror giuliani is conveying what the special counsel has said to him or he's interpreting it suggesting this will wrap up by september 1 and if there's a

presidential interview it will be limited in scope and scale. bob mueller isn't saying that but rudy giuliani's audience isn't the courtroom, it's the court of public opinion and his audience he believes at the end of the day mueller will write a report that will get to congress and be made public. congress will have to make a decision on impeachment proceedings, if rudy applies pressure to the voters they answer to, that may change the equation. >> let me bring you and maggie haberman's reporting into the conversation as well, peter. the reason the president of the united states had to stand on that 18-acre complex and answer a question about whether or not being a porn star is honorable is because rudy giuliani said in israel that it wasn't and the president sought out stormy daniels as a sexual partner so we're having this conversation because this is someone the president invited into hiss world. what do you think the president's degree of awareness

is about all of the fallout, the humiliation for rudy's verbal mishaps? >> yeah, that's a great question. i would love to be a fly on the wall when he and the first lady talk about rudy giuliani. what she made clear is i've never spoken to rudy giuliani about this or anybody else her spokesperson said on behalf of the first lady. so what she's saying is not just rudy giuliani isn't my spokesman, she was not affirming his assertion that she is okay with what happens with stormy daniels, that she believes her husband. maybe she does but she didn't affirm that yesterday and she was given every opportunity. >> rev? >> i think you have to understand rudy giuliani's role is exactly what he's doing and that is to play the bully, play

to someone he's not going to answer. that's typical new york politics. that's how rudy was mayor. rudy wouldn't talk to anybody that didn't agree with him. he would bully and fight in the public any issue so in many ways trump and rude dry the same type which is why trump has rudy. the real story to me is if trump was totally innocent or knew there was nothing there he wouldn't be muddying the atmosphere. he would have a legal team that would surgically be dealing with why he should not be under these investigations or where it's not going. the fact he needs this muddying means there's something there. >> and bloomberg reports that rudy giuliani has yet to genuinely affect the course of robert mueller's rush problem being a near presence on tv. nearly two months after joining trump's legal team, giuliani isn't seen as a power player with the legal authority to go up against mueller's team of career prosecutors, current and former u.s. law enforcement

officials said. he may speak loudly to the public but he's not speaking the language of mueller's world which comes in the form of legal filings, case law and investigative evidence. giuliani's met with mueller once. so he may be achieving what you describe to be the goal, the public relations effect but clearly if the president wasn't afraid he wouldn't be tweeting about the russian witch-hunt everyday. >> absolutely. and i think rudy wants us to be talking about whether or not being a porn star is a good or bad profession as opposed to the court filing we saw today in the superseding indictment that was filed today. they don't want us to talk about the facts in the russia investigation. they don't want us to talk about the fact that the date listed in today's court filing was february 23, just so happens to be the same day rick gates pled guilty and decided to cooperate so trump is very concerned about where this investigation is going and that hasn't changed and now he has a tv lawyer what can say the things he wants to say but can't because it would put anymore an even more

dangerous legal position. >> the most dangerous place in the universe is someone between donald trump and a camera. right now that's rudy giuliani. the half-life of rudy giuliani staying in the white house, i don't know what it is. donald trump does not like someone to be on tv more than he does. he violated a famous rule in washington. never hire a principal to represent a principal. now the other thing i would ask, i don't know if peter baker is still on. >> peter is still here. >> rudy giuliani is in israel on what undoubtedly is a paid speaking gig. he's being paid by a private place speaking for the president while he's there. what are the ethics of that? should he be allowed to take public speaking gigs while he's representing the white house? >> peter baker, any thoughts on that? >> that is a great question. he's a private lawyer so he's not on the white house staff so a private lawyer can represent the president and also do other

business but i think the conference was sponsored by a newspaper, the "globe" newspaper over there. i don't know much of the details but he seems to be broadening beyond his mandate of talking about these investigations into foreign policy. he was asked about north korea, he said kim jong-un came begging on his knees to have the summit with north korea's leader reinstated by the president. he also said the palestinians should do the same thing so that's beyond his brief. >> have you heard of scott pruitt? >> yes. >> peter baker, thanks for spending time with us. the president on a pardon bender. we'll show you his latest comments about the thousands, thousands of pardons under consideration. does this map show the peninsula trail? you won't find that on a map. i'll take you there.

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their sentence is far too long. >> thousands of names, including this one. >> i am thinking about muhammed ali. in fact, we're doing right now recommendation recommendations on muhammad ali. >> i'm sorry, it's like casting call for american idol. fact check, muhammad ali had his criminal conviction overturned by the supreme court nearly 50 years ago. a lawyer for the late champ said he doesn't need a pardon and trump's focus on pardons didn't stop there. he floated an idea for the nfl players to take a knee during the national anthem. >> you shouldn't go in a locker room when our national anthem is played. i'm going ask all of those people to recommend to me -- because that's what they're protesting -- people that they think were unfairly treated by the justice system. and i understand that. and i'm going to ask them to

recommend to me people that were unfairly treated. friends of theirs or people that they know about and i'll look at those applications and if i find and my committee finds they're unfairly treated we will pardon them or at least let them out. >> so he's going to have those sons of bitches recommend for people to get pardons. >> who are taking knees about injustice but he's going ask them to recommend names. we saw donald trump completely inept in this area. you can't pardon a guy that the supreme court has already overturned a convictionment second of all, what committee told him to pardon d'souza. >> or sheriff arpaio. >> or joe arpaio. what committee cleared that. but if the nfl players who are protesting on these issues bring in names, him and his committee,

what committee? and there are thousands of names. thousands of names for year. obama pardoned more than the last 11 presidents. there are many times there but you needed kim kardashian to bring you that name? you needed stallone to bring you jack johnson so now you need nfl superstars to bring you more names and you will think about it? he's really trying to play bait-and-switch with voters. it's ridiculous. i think alice should have gotten out and she's on "politics nation" with me sunday morning but what are we talking about here? a man that doesn't know you can't pardon a man that doesn't need a pardon? we're being played with here. >> and by the way, muhammed ali did a lot more than take a knee like the nfl players. he went to jail for refusing to fight in an immoral war. >> and lost his career. but not only that, if you're going to pardon muhammed ali if he was one that could do it,

muhammed ali stood up because of his muslim faith. here's the proponent of muslim bans, one of the greatist islamophobia people we know. it seems like we're dancing around something that is an uncomfortable reality. presidents are too stingy with the power to pardon. the issue here is the president's motive. football players on your knee, bring me your names. kim kardashian did something great. this isn't about -- and so in its own way this is norm busting with a mixed result. i think pardoning more people might be a good thing but this isn't being done of a place of mercy or thoughtfulness. jeb bush had the power to pardon. i sat through those cases and they were wrenching and you had character witnesses. that is not the president's goal

and he even manages to debase a process where some good may come of it. >> i think when he likens the support he does, he likes the positive headlines and us being like thank you for pardoning alice because it was the right thing to do but i think all of this is setting the stage for when he does pardon people who are associated with the campaign and involved in the russia investigation and he wants us to shrug when he does that ch. he wants us to feel like pardons are a normal thing and when he pardons paul manafort or jared kushner go down the line, we'll shrug and i hope we don't. >> we're not shrugging here. >> not on this show. >> we have to pause. this conversation is going to keep going. tonight could decide which team wins the nba national championship but will they be welcomed at the white house?

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i mean i know no matter who wins this series, no one wants to invite anybody. so it won't be golden state or cleveland going. >> i agree with lebron. i'm pretty sure the way we handled things last year, kind of stay consistent with that. every team has an opportunity to make a decision for themselves and speak for themselves, and i think that's powerful, you know,

being in this situation. >> so that happened first, and then today the president of the united states said, you're not invited to my party anyway. rev? >> i mean i think that we are in a really cultural shift when you see team after team saying they don't want to go to the white house. i mean this is unprecedented. you're talking about somebody who has spent decades protesting, and i've never seen where you've got this kind of turn-down to the president of the united states across the board. and it's really telling how divisive he is. >> do we have coach kerr's sound as well? so coach kerr, the warriors coach -- hopefully they're on their way to winning the championship -- said, i'm blown away by the irony of the eagles being disinvited. when you read about their good deeds in their communities, really trying to get to the root of some of the issues we have. instead we have these military sing-alongs at the white house to show how patriot we are even

though we don't know the words. just incredible. that's coach kerr filling the leadership void. why those words can come out of the mouth of a paul ryan or a mitch mcconnell or some republican with some steel in his mind, who can say whatever he knows to be true. it is remarkables that it's figures in other aarenas that are filling this leadership vacuum. >> i think rev right. it's a huge cultural shift. it's not just any athletes. it's not just the colin kaepernicks that are protesting on the field. but it's lebron james, who is arguably the greatest basketball player ever. >> easy, easy. you're talking to a steph curry girl here. >> but i would say that that's an important piece because lebron james has incredible influence across generations, across races, arguably across the entire country. i think that it goes to show that the president is not just divisive.

there's something about -- >> and these guys are moral leaders in a way that the president does not. >> they're filling the vacuum the president has left. >> steve kerr for president. lebron for vice president. >> and steph for whatever he wants. >> secretary of state, i guess. trump was nervous only a few eagles were going to show up. football teams are far larger than basketball teams. he would have got zero or one person, an assistant coach maybe. he wanted no part of this. they made a decision for him. >> we have to sneak in our very last break. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. t i could ds with some zen gardening. at least we don't have to worry about homeowners insurance. just call geico. geico helps with homeowners insurance? good to know. been doing it for years. that's really good to know. i should clean this up. i'll get the dustpan. behind the golf clubs. get to know geico. and see how easy homeowners and renters insurance can be.

i couldn't catch my breath. it was the last song of the night. it felt like my heart was skipping beats. they said i had afib. what's afib? i knew that meant i was at a greater risk of stroke. i needed answers. my doctor and i chose xarelto® to help keep me protected from a stroke.

once-daily xarelto®, a latest-generation blood thinner significantly lowers the risk of stroke in people with afib not caused by a heart valve problem. warfarin interferes with at least 6 of your body's natural blood-clotting factors. xarelto® is selective, targeting just one critical factor. for afib patients well managed on warfarin, there is limited information on how xarelto® compares in reducing the risk of stroke. don't stop taking xarelto® without talking to your doctor, as this may increase your risk of stroke. while taking, you may bruise more easily, or take longer for bleeding to stop. xarelto® can cause serious, and in rare cases, fatal bleeding. it may increase your risk of bleeding if you take certain medicines. get help right away for unexpected bleeding or unusual bruising. do not take xarelto® if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. before starting, tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures and any kidney or liver problems. learn all you can to help protect yourself from a stroke. talk to your doctor about xarelto®.

i want to let you share your theory about the nba. >> well, i think it's not good for the nba if the warriors win in four. >> then i think people are going to have to try to be as good as

the warriors. i'm not trash talking just yet, but you know. >> celtics next year, baby. >> celtics next year. >> beat them if you wan it to go longer. that does it for my hour. thanks. i'm nicolle wallace. i'll sue he back here monday for deadline white house at 4:00 p.m. rolling seven. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews from washington. once again president trump's out there defending russia while snubbing america's closest allies. departing today for the g7 economic summit up in canada, the president called for russia, for russia to rejoin the group of seven. the international organization comprised of the world's leading economies. he wants russia back in. russia used to be a member of the g7, but their invasion of ukraine and subsequent