launched a music play list on spotify. check out the beat's play list. you can see some of our favorite artists and guests. for more of the interview, we are posting the entire conversation on the beat on the podcast and we post that every weekend. that's our show. "hardball" starts now. >> manafort goes to jail. let's play "hardball." >> good evening. i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews. tonight president trump's former campaign chairman, paul manafort is in federal custody and will spend the remainder of his days pending trial in jail. already facing multiple counts of bank fraud, conspiracy and money laundering he arrived at a d.c. courthouse this morning

pleading not guilty to new charges of witness tampering. the judge in the case utley ruled that the severity of the alleged crime violated the terms of manafort's bail agreement saying allowing his release would "harm the integrity of the justice system." nbc news reports manafort did not appear to react to that ruing. he was immediately taken into custody, giving a quick wave to his wife as he was escorted from the courtroom. he will now be held in pretrial detention till september. he reacting to the news, his former client, president trump was quick to defend his reputation saying, "wow, what a tough sentence for paul manafort who has represented ronald reagan, bob dole and many other top political people in campaigns. didn't know manafort was the head of the mob. what about comey and crooked hillary and all of the others? very unfair." now trump attorney rudy giuliani is dangling a presidential pardon responding to the news of

manafort's incarceration telling the "new york daily news," "when the whole thing is over, things might get cleared up with some presidential pardons," adding "i don't understand the justification for putting him in jail. you put a guy in jail if he's trying to kill witnesses, not talking to witnesses." he later downplayed those comments in an interview with nbc news saying he would advise a pardon. some mixed signals there. ken dilanian, national security reporter for nbc news, mike the schmidt with the "new york times" and msnbc national security contributor, mimi rocah, and carolyn poly zee a criminal defense attorney. thank you for being with us. ken, let me start with you. in terms of the bottom line now, paul manafort's in jail. he's probably till september at least now. explain what exactly it was that caused the judge to make that decision today.

>> sure, steve. it was paul manafort's reckless decision in february to reach out to some potential witnesses in the case against him that involved allegedly illegal lobbying. and he reached out by phone and through encrypted apps. one of those witnesses was so rattled by this he immediately called the fbi and turned over the encrypted messages to prosecutors and said i think he was trying to tell me to lie. that was essentially the basis for these allegations. not only did the prosecution file a motion to revoke bay, they filed a separate indictment. they charged him today with obstruction of justice. he pled not guilty in court. that led judge jackson to say look, the prosecution has already met the standard that i have to follow which is probable cause to believe that paul manafort committed these crimes. she had no choice. she went through the range of possibilities. she said i'm trying to find out what i can doing short of

incarcerating you that would deter from you committing future crimes. she said at one point, this isn't middle school, i can't just take your cell phone. so she sent him to jail. we've made attempts to try to figure out where he is but a law enforcement official said normally someone would be sent to the dc jail. that is a notoriously bad place. it has a roach and rat problem. it houses murderers and rapists, it would be increditable to think of this high flying politico known for $7,000 suits to spend the night in the washington, d.c. jail. >> let me follow on that to explain the procedure for folks like me. if that is where he is, if that's the normal procedure, would that also normally under normal procedure be the place where somebody in his situation stays for the next few months? >> it could be. don't forget, he's notice custody of the federal marshals. they could take him somewhere else and decide, for example, that there is a threat to him,

he's a high profile prisoner. he's better suited in the alexandria jail where a lot of high profile white collar people up. he's facing trial in virginia. the federal marshals are not commenting on his status. >> carolyn will, ken is saying the judge had no choice. your guy is facing trial communicating with witnesses being told by another judge not to do that. rudy gufl out there, the president's lawyer now, was the united states attorney 20, 30 years ago in new york saying you only do that when they kill witnesses not when they talk to witnesses. what's your response there. >> it's not true. what ken's referring to meaning it amy berman jackson had no choice, under the bail reform act there's a rebuttable presumption by manafort and his attorneys that have to problem that he's going not to commit crimes when he's out. she just didn't see that. i think also in this decision

here, this isn't the first time that this judge has taken manafort to task. remember when he tried to ghost write the op-ed with constantine comrim kilimnik. >> kilimnik is in the superseding indictment he's alleged to have witness tamper. she didn't vin another choice, i believe. >> michael schmidt, from the bigger picture standpoint here, legally, it's the question of the mueller investigation where this all kind of emerges from. how does this development with paul manafort today fit into that broader picture of the mueller investigation and his role in that. >> well, i guess what we're going to find out here is whether paul manafort has something to offer or if he really thinks he's been wrongfully charged and wants to go to trial. mueller is trying to put as much pressure on manafort as possible to get him to plead. he's one of the people charged and not do that. the deputy campaign chairman has pled. the former national security

adviser has pled. but manafort has held out. he said look, i have nothing to give the government. i have done nothing wrong. i want to find this to the end of the earth. now he will face the pressure of jailtime. this is before the trial. so the question that remains to be seen is what will happen with manafort. will he change his view about this trial coming up in september? would they go to the prosecutors and say maybe we can help you with something else or will they continue to buckle down and fight this. manafort has been steadfast in that. >> is there any sense if there were some kind of deal with manafort if manafort were to cooperate, what it is that mueller thinks he's going to get in particularing? >> no, and from a very basic standpoint, mueller may just say look, i want to know everything that manafort knows. he was someone that had ties to eastern europe, ties to russia, played an important role in the campaign. i'm supposed to figure out was there a counter intelligence issue here to complete that

investigation. i need to sit down within paul manafort and know everything that he knows. it could be that simple. they could think there is something more nefarious. we don't know. if you are going to turn over every rock like mueller has to, getting manafort's testimony and understanding of what was going on in the campaign, remember, manafort was at the meeting at trump tower in the summer of 2016 when the russians offered dirt to the president's son. if you're doing this investigation, to conclude it, you would need to talk to manafort. >> then mimi, the other piece of this today is rudy giuliani, the president's lawyer and his response to there. his initial response asked by the "new york daily news" there is to say hey, ultimately this thing might be resolved with some pardons, seeming to connect the news of manafort to the idea that president trump could pardon him and others. he then seemed to walk that back. what do you make of what rudy giuliani said today? >> he's coming very close, if he isn't already over the line in

terms of getting himself involved in some potential obstruction charges because you know, there are things, giuliani says things all the time and it's a little bit hard to take him seriously. but the timing of this to say to mention the possibility of pardons at the end of this right when manafort has been sent to jail, it's clearly him sending -- i won't even say a signal. it's him shouting across the room, hang in there. a pardon is coming down the road. i understand there's all sorts of legal and constitutional arguments about the president has the right to pardon. but the president's lawyer does not have the an absolute right to essentially tell a witness don't cooperate, we're going to give you a pardon, which is really what he was doing today. i think giuliani has just -- his statement about only mob bosses you know go to jail for witness tampering. he's a former u.s. attorney. that's very disingenuous.

he absolutely knows that's not true and this was a serious case of obstruction of justice and manafort needed to go in. >> carolyn what, do you make of that? you could make the argument i page from somebody tryinto defend rudy giuliani here, yes, the president has the power to forwarden, anybody at any time for any reason. if his lawyer says by the way, the president has this sort of unbridled power here, cog a case emerge from that. >> we don't need to be reminded he has the sort of unfettered power. that is true it says so in the constitution and there are no limits except you can't pardon. you can't pardon for an impeachment proceeding. we've seen donald trump sort of use the pardon power with reckless abandon. scooter libby dineshdy souza did, for jack johnson. he's trying to normalize the pardoning process even though he does it in a way inconsistent with the procedures that prior

presidents have done it. giuliani and he are laying the groundwork to make the pardon seem kind of like a normal thing that many presidents do. giuliani is coming at it more from a pr standpoint as opposed to a legal standpoint. >> as we say the president criticized that decision by the judge to revoke paul manafort's bail. however in, a surprise q & a earlier this morning, trump tried to distance himself from his now incarcerated former campaign chairman. >> i think a lot of it is very unfair. i look at some of them where they go back 12 years. manafort has nothing to do with our campaign. i feel a little badly about it. they went back 12 years to get things he did 12 years ago. paul manafort worked for me for a very short period of time pep worked for me 49 days or something? a very short period of time. >> the correct total number of days that paul manafort worked for president trump in case you were wondering during the 2016 campaign, it was 144 days. that tenure was longer than kellyanne conway and steve

bannon both ending up with white house jobs. trump praised manafort on the campaign trail in 2016 a number of times. >> i have fantastic people. paul manafort just came on. he's great. he doesn't have to do there. he wanted to. paul, cory, hope, i mean these people what we've been doing has been incredible. >> and paul manafort has done an amazing job. he's here some place. where's paul? paul manafort. oh, good. you made it. >> and ken, is there any sense around the president, around his legal team how they look at manafort right now the? >> well, steve, you asked the question earlier what, could paul manafort give mueller. mike schmidt answered we don't know. informed speculation suggests he could be a crucial witness in this question of whether the trump campaign coordinated with the russian election interference. he came into the campaign with significant russian ties.

he earned money from a russian stooge and during the campaign, evers trying to monetize his service by offering private briefings to a russian oligarch, deripaska and he was in contact with george papadopoulos that young aide who was told that the russianss had hacked democratic e-mails before that became public. one of the questions is did manafort discuss the trump tower meeting with donald trump. >> was there any discussion what the russians did to help campaign? donald trump didn't use e-mail. for mueller to get the evidence what trump knew when he needs witness testimony. i think that's one of the reasons he's pressing so hard, he wants his testimony about meetings with donald trump. >> caroline, as a defense attorney, from a strategic standpoint, if you're paul manafort's lawyer, anybody else who gets jammed up some way or another in this mueller investigation who was on trump's team at some point, is part of your strategy behind the scenes

when you see comments like rudy giuliani today saying this might be settled with pardons, is that part of your strategic thinking in putting your defense together let's not go too far in making some kind of agreement with prosecutors because there could be a pardon that obviyeas everything. >> absolutely not. thought process throughout this. if you're paul manafort's defense attorney now, you're telling him he's an idiot and why did he do what he did because it was reckless. >> will they tell him to cut a deal do you think. >> they must be. preparing for trial when your client is in custody, the bureau of prisons is supposed to make federal people that are in detention available for preparing for trial but it's very difficult to do so. this is going to hurt them in so many ways and he has two trials to prepare for. they're coming up soon soon. he's facing a lifetime in prison. absolutely. i think that a deal would be behoove him in this instance.

>> mimi, from a prosecutor standpoint, okay, look, if manafort is key to answering a lot of these questions that is mueller presumably has about russia, about 2016, about anything, if he offers potential answers on a lot of those in, terms of giving him a deal from a prosecutor's standpoint, how does that work? do you get some assurance up front the information he's going to give su going to lead to other prosecutions or take a chance maybe the information doesn't lead to anything but we still cut a favorable deal for him anyway? >> well, it's a process. and if we're talking -- by cutting a deal, if you mean allowing him to cooperate, the way it would work is manafort's attorney would say to the government he wants to come in and talk. he would have what's called a proffer session with a proffer agreement which means the statements he gives that the session cannot be used against him direct throw prosecute him. there are some exceptions to that but that's the general rule. and they would basically just

start you know, asking him questions and listening to what he has to say. and over time, you know, they would make a about whether he had information that was useful. if so, then he would -- they would negotiate what's called a cooperation agreement which is a plea agreement that also gives basically a promise that down the road, the government is going to make the judge know and write the judge a letter called a 5k1 letter that lets the judge know about his cooperation. so it's not necessarily negotiating a particular sentence or sort of cutting him a deal. it depends on what the crimes are that he would have to plead guilty to, but it's really more of a process that takes time. it's not like they would say, he wants to cooperate and then tomorrow he would or even in a week he would be in court pleading guilty. >> all right. mimi rocah, carolyn polisi, ken and michael, thank you for being

with us. coming up, president trump is blasting the department of justice report on the clinton e-mail investigation. but he also says it totally exonerates him. we're going to cut through the president's false claims about the ig report next. plus the president says he has solved the north korea situation. we'll run the numbers on what the public thinks of how he handled that summit this week and how he's handling the issue in eligible and make sense of the president's bizarre comment he wants his people to sit up at attention just like kim jung un's people. and separating children from their parents at the border and the roundtable is here to tell us three things you might not know. this is hsh where the action is. is. hsh where the action is. ahsh where the action is. rhsh where the action is. dhsh where the action is. bhsh where the action is. ahsh where the action is. lhsh where the action is. lhsh where the action is. "hsh where the action is. where the action is. is complete!

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than 700 pages of messages sent using encrypted programs on phones seized from cohen. if reconstructed 16 pages from the contents of a shredding machine," comes as "the wall street journal" reports cohen is being investigated for positive illegal lobbying. there are signs he may be closer to cooperating with prosecutors. he believes the president and his allies are turning against him and he is increasingly feeling isolated from mr. trump. he has become "irritated by statements made in the media by the president's lawyer rudy giuliani." here's how the president answered questions about cohen this morning. >> i always liked michael cohen. i haven't spoken to mike in a long time. >> is he still your lawyer. >> no, he's not my lawyer. >> but i always liked michael. he's a good person. excuse me, do you mind if i talk? you're asking me a question. i'm trying to ask it. >> just want to know if you're worried he's going to cooperate with federal investigators.

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welcome back to "hardball." during president trump's hour long media blitz this morning, he made a number of inaccurate or misleading statements about theive specter general's report on the fbi's handling of the 2016 election. >> the ig report came out yesterday. the fbi looked bad. >> very bad. >> your fbi. >> well, no, it's comey. but the top people were horrible. you look at what happened. they were plotting against my election. probably has never happened like that in terms of intelligence in terms of anything else. they were actually plotting against my election. >> the headline from the "wall street journal," doj clinton report blasts comey and agents but finds no bias in conclusion. >> the end result was wrong. there was total bias. it was a pretty good report and then i say that the i.g. blew it at the very with that statement. it was almost like comey.

he goes point after point how guilty hillary and then he said but we're not going to do anything about it. the report, the ig report was a horror show. i thought that one sentence of conclusion was ridiculous. >> much of what the president said today isn't true. according to roughly 500-page report there was "no evidence that improper considerations including political bias directly affected the investigation." trump also falsely claimed the report exonerated him. that's something that was not addressed by the inspector general. let's watch. >> if you read the ig report, i've been totally exonerated. >> collusion had nothing to do with. >> no, take a look at the investigation. >> for more, i'm joined by phillip bump, west political reporter and benjamin wittes, legal analyst and law fair editor-in-chief from washington. phil, let me start with you. let's be clear what this ig inspector general report covered. there was about the fbi's handling of the investigation of hillary clinton and the e-mail

issue in 2016. this was not trump, russia, the sort of stuff we talk about in terms of russia and collusion. >> that's exactly right. it was a little broader than that. it included text messages that were going back and forth between peter strzok and lisa page that addressed this other issue of an fbi employee who had given a heads-up to john podesta. there was a lot in there. but it focused on what was done during the campaign by the fbi and wlo there had been a violation against the fbi's prohibitions in their investigations. what it found was there were things they were worried about red flags raised but the investigations were not tainted by that bias. >> when the president says he's been exonerated, is there any sense what he's referring to, something he can hang that on? is there any sense what that reference means. >> i'm skeptical president trump read the document. what i would guess is the president trump makes broad

claims and then seizes upon little things to validate them. he has two operating theories among many about the mueller investigation. one is comey was bad. the other is the fbi was biased. in that report, you can make argues to both those points. you can make points this we'll stop trump text. there's evidence the fbi had bias. comey is bad, therefore everything said about comey is accurate. therefore donald trump is exonerated. i feel like we're all three years noose this by now. we have a decent sense where his brain works. there is nothing from a categorical sense that exonerates him about the russia investigation at all. >> and ben wittes, i know you, you have a relationship with jim comey. i know you've written about him quite a bit. i do want to ask you about the comey piece of this because if we separate what the president is saying, what the president is claiming, this report does really drill down on james comey, his conduct during the 2016 campaign as it reals to the

clinton e-mail investigation. it's pretty scathing accusing him of insubordination at one point. let me ask you about this in particular. they say that press conference he held in the summer of 2016 where he said he's not going to recommend charges against hillary clinton. but then he essentially in the court of public opinion it seemed indicted her anyway. clinton people have looked back at that and said that's something that cost her dearly in the 2016 campaign, something he never should have done. this report says the act of doing that press conference without a heads up to the justice department represented insubordinati insubordination. do you think that's a fair conclusion? >> i think jim did the things he did. i have defended some of them, had anxieties about others. the -- by the way, i was one of a very small number of people to raise anxieties about the publicly about the substance of that of press conference at the time that it happened. you know, he did the things

there's did, he's accountable for them. the id characterizes them the way the ig characterizes them. jim has responded by saying he respects the ig's work though he disagrees with the conclusions. there's never been a doubt factually about what happened here. these were tough choices. jim made the ones that he made and he has to stand up to history and its judgments and response. i think he's actually pretty comfortable with that. >> what do you make of it though? the fbi director giving that press conference in the heat of the campaign and then again, the one, the hillary clinton folks to this day, hillary clinton herself has said publicly things cost her the election, that letter ten days before the election. do you think that was proper? >> so i think the merits of these questions are very different. had i problems with the press conference at the time that it happened. and i still think that that was not the greatest idea in the

world. i also, you know, i also think by the way that it was not in the highest traditions of the justice department for the attorney general to be play no role in the question of what was said at the end of that investigation. so the problem was both that comey chose to give that statement but also the problem was also that the attorney general chose to just kind of sit there and let him do it. i think something very similar about the october letter. i think it was probably not a great thing to do. and i think the problem was both that jim took it upon himself to make that announcement but also that salliates and loretta lynch didn't pick up the phone and you know, knowing he was planning to do it and say no, you're actually our subordinate. don't do that. i think there were a lot of mistakes here, but i'm not -- i

think the distribution of blame is a little bit broader than the ig describes it. in my view anyway. >> all right. ben wittes and phillip bump, thank you for joining us. and we should note that this weekend, chris matthews is going to host a documentary on former fbi director james comey. that's going to air this sunday, 10:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. up next recent president trump says he has solved the threat posed by north korea. what do voters think about the summit this week? we'll show you brand-new numbers on that. interesting what they have to say. this is "hardball" where the action is. social security alerts. oh! just sign up online and we'll alert you if we find your social security number on any one of thousands of risky sites. that sounds super helpful. how much is it? well, if you have a discover card, it's free. no way! yes way! weust think it's important for you to be in the know. all right! hey... ewww! everything ok? being in the know is very good. yeah, it is. ooo don't shake! don't shake! ahhh!

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we now have a very good relationship with north korea. when i came into this job, it looked like war. not because of me but if you remember the sitdown with barack obama, i think he will admit this, he said the biggest problem that the united states has and by far the most dangerous problem and he said to me that we've ever had because of nuclear is north korea. now, that was shortly before i entered office. i have solved that problem. now we're getting it memorialized and all. but that problem is largely solved. >> president this morning saying he has solved the problem of north korea just a couple days after that summit. of course, the question this week with that summit with how the president described afterwards, what do the american people who watched their president sit down with kim

jong-un this week, what do they make of it? we got fresh data. monmouth took a poll on this. very interesting findings. let's find out, first of all, how about the baseline question after the summit this week, the baseline question, president trump's bait to deal with the problem of north korea. overall, you are not confident, are you leaning toward not confident, a majority are on the not confident side of that divide when it comes to president trump in dealing with north korea which is what he's doing this week with that summit, trying to deal with it. 46% confident or leaning that way. that maybe not a good number for the president. also this who gained more from this summit this week? who gained more from the meeting? not a lot of people are saying the u.s. ended up with the better end of that deal. three times as many saying north korea a good chunk saying both equally. not a lot of americans saying donald trump who calls himself the master negotiator negotiateded something that will favor the u.s. more than north

korea. maybe some negative numbers there. the bottom line question, probably the bottom line question on most people's mind when they look at this is that, did the meeting decrease the nuclear threat from north korea. and here's one it's interesting. a slim majority, 51% say that in the end, it is likely that what happened this week between president trump and kim jong-un deserve decrease that threat from north korea and the nuclear threat. that may explain this finding. bottom line ask folks was it a good idea. trump sitting down with kim jong-un. was that a good idea. 71% landing on the side of it was a good idea. very interestingly when the summit was first announced and this was asked, should trump have this meeting? is that a good idea. that number was down at 63%. there's a fair number of people had this week who wanted that summit, absorbed the reaction and said i changed my mind. i do think it was a good idea in hindsight. not a lot of confidence maybe in

the president himself but the idea of talking to people i had i more on the side there that ultimately that had some kind of or could have some kind of positive impact. a lit of a mixed verdict there. trump's handling on the one hand, the bottom line for the world on the other. we have more from donald trump's freewheeling media tour this morning. trump made a joking about kim jong-un. how much truth was behind his thinking in that joke? some are saying it's a little too on money. you're watching "hardball." job but behr premium stain can weather any weather. behr premium semi-transparent stain and sealer, overall #1 rated, weathers it all. find our most advanced formula exclusively at the home depot. gives skin the moisture it needs and keeps it there longer

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to keep our community safe. before you do any project big or small, pg&e will come out and mark your gas and electric lines so you don't hit them when you dig. call 811 before you dig, and make sure that you and your neighbors are safe. welcome back to "hardball." since his meeting with kim jong-un in singapore, president trump has been full of praise for the north korean dictator causing him funny, very smart and talented and he comriped his great personality. today, president trump expressed a degree of envy about the attention kim commands from his people. >> he's the head of a country and i mean he's the stronghead. don't let anyone think anything

different. he speaks and his people sit up at attention. i want my people to do the same. >> shortly after trump insisted to reporters that was a joke. >> what did you mean just now when you said you wished americans would sit up at attention. >> i'm kidding. you don't understand sarcasm. >> kim jong-un's human rights abuses are well documented. his regime jails and kills dissenters. earlier this week trump dismissed concerns about those abuses saying a lot of other people have done really bad things. trump was also asked today about otto warmbier who was imprisoned in north korea and died shortly after returning home from a coma. >> you have spoken so passionately that led to otto warmbier's death. in the same breath, you're defending kim jong-un's human rights record. how can you do that? >> because i don't want to see a nuclear weapon destroy you and your family. >> mara gay, john podhoretz an

msnbc contributor and nick confessore, a reporter for "the new york times" and political analyst. mara, i'll start with you. the president just offered what i think is his justification for all the stuff we showed before that. he seems to be saying all the praise, all the positive things is in the interest of peace, no nuclear war no, confrontation. >> i think it's in the interest of whatever is in his best interests frankly. that's what he's doing. look, this is the same story. a strange fascination admiration for strong leaders meaning authoritarian leaders. he was completely dismissive and disrespectful of the g-7 and then turns around and has nothing but praise for a dictator. he says it's a joke. a lot of us are not laughing. i don't think it's funny. >> john, from the republican side on this, and i'm curious,

what is the thinking in the republican party? there's the question of if obama did this, if a democrat did this, i'm sure i know what the republican response would be. how are folks on the republican side thinking about this. >> i think that they are desperately hopeful that trump is going to pull some rabbit out of the hat and make north korea -- pacify the u.s./north korean relationship and denuclearize north korea. i don't think people are happy with this rhetoric. it is cringe inducing at best and is a complete betrayal of 50 years, 60 years of republican conservative views of how the united states should talk about and deal with totalitarian dictators. so i believe that trump meant it as a joke. i think that the weird part about this is, that he -- he

doesn't understand that that this is not something that a president should joke about because people are standing at attention for kim jong-un because he could fire a ballistic miff at you. he could kill you with a chemical weapon as he did to a family member in an airport in malaysia last year. i mean, this is -- he is a terrifying person to the people who work for him and live around him and live under his thumb. and it's not a joking matter. it's the opposite of a joking matter. >> and i'm looking at those numbers, nick, in terms of we showed this segment before this in terms of how americans processed the summit this week and the lesson i took from it seemed to be from a bottom line standpoint people do like the idea of some kind of engagement is, some kind of dialogue even with enemies even with people like kim jong-un. i do wonder how much latitude they're willing to offer a president when he comes back and

talks this way. >> the problem for the president is he swings and veers wildly between extremes. one second he's threatening fire and fury and amping up tensions and the second he's lavishing with praise. you can go down the middle once in awhile and keep it clean which he doesn't do. wasn't to be over the top at all times. i saw those numbers to you and my first thought was a depressing thought which is like a good chunk of the country is always with the president or always kind of against him. what we report on doesn't matter sometimes. it's a depressing thought but it's probably true. >> trump also spoke to reporters shortly before paul manafort appeared in court this morning. he said he felt bad for manafort and other shays being investigated or pleaded get in the probe. trump singled out michael flynn and made reference to his long-time attorney and fixer michael cohen. >> i don't think it's right. i don't think it's right they burst into a lawyer's office on a weekend and early in the morning. i never heard of that before.

now, i feel badly for a lot of those people. i feel badly for general flynn. he lost his house, his life. some people say he lied and some people say he didn't lie. i mean, really it turned out maybe he didn't lie. >> you say you feel badly. is there any consideration at any point of a pardon? >> i don't want to talk about that. no, they'll run. but i do want to see people treated fairly. >> all right. so the they asked him about the pardon. he doesn't want to talk about it. then his lawyer a few hours later said maybe this whole thing will be solved with a few pardons. then he says i would advise against a pardon. we are talking about pardons. >> i think this is wishful thinking. i think that the president and his administration are under an immense amount of pressure. i think in some sense the walls are closing in. look, the president can talk about this as you know manafort being a victim as much as he wants. but ultimately, what we're seeing so far is the wheels of

justice, the justice system working exactly as it should. you're innocent till proven guilty. there is nothing unusual -- these prosecutors are following by all means just standard practice. >> so paul manafort is accused and is has now been jailed for attempting to witness tamper to, get people who worked for him to testify in some fashion or talk to the mueller probe about him in a way that he wishes. okay. so trump has two choices. he can say oh, poor manafort. he's of the 69 years old. the other way he could have said it, on august 14th "the new york times" reveals a story that there is a ledger in the ukraine that shows $12.7 million in undisclosed payments to paul manafort and the day after that, manafort was fired by trump campaign. trump could say look, i don't know why you're bothering me

about this. i know this guy. i fired him the day after i found out that he was on the ukrainian payroll and being an unregistered foreign lobbyist and part of the swamp but he doesn't do that. failure to do that is indicative of something. i don't know what about you something. >> roundtable is staying with us. up next, trump is pinning the blame on the donkey once again this time when it comes to immigration. you're watching "hardball." tha. red lobster's lobster & shrimp summerfest is back! you're watching "hardball." y you're watching "hardball." o you're watching "hardball." u you're watching "hardball." you're watching "hardball." you're watching "hardball." you're watching "hardball." you'" t you're watching "hardball." r you're watching "hardball." u you're watching "hardball." or new caribbean lobster and shrimp. sweet pineapple salsa on grilled rock lobster, paired with jumbo coconut shrimp. and wait. there's lobster & shrimp overboard! it's a seafood party on a plate. so hurry in. 'cause lobster & shrimp summerfest won't last. and i heard that my cousin's so, wife's sister's husband

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president trump earlier today gave mixed reviews to his epa administrator scott pruitt. let's watch. >> we now have a very good relationship with north korea. when i came into this job, it looked like war. not because of me but if you remember the sitdown with barack obama, i think he will admit this he said the biggest problem that the united states has and by far the most dangerous problem and he said to me that we've ever had because of nuclear is north korea. now, that was shortly before i entered office. i have solved that problem. we're getting it memorialized and all. but that problem is largely solved. >> that is not scott pruitt in case you picked up from the context clues that the president was talking about. north korea. but scott pruitt, the epa administrator is the subject of more than a dozen federal investigations.

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yesss! to help for belly pain. talk to your doctor and say yesss! linzess. welcome back to "hardball." the trump administration is facing a major backlash over its policy of separating children from parents who illegally cross border. now the president is blaming democrats. the administration acknowledged today that nearly 2,000 children were taken from their parents in the last six weeks alone. that is a rate of 46 children per day. yet president trump is distancing himself from hisization's policy and falsely claiming that democrats are to blame for it. >> i hate the children being taken away. the democrats have to change their law. that's their law. the children can be taken care of. quickly, beautifully and immediately. the democrats forced that law upon our nation. i hate it. i hate to see separation of

parents and children. >> we are back now with the "hardball" roundtable. mara, john and nick. if he hates it, it could change. >> who is he kidding? this was a policy they advertised as a deterrent. it's working the way they wanted it to, unfortunately now, that they have a huge amount of blowback. these images are horrifying to any person. and it's going to keep taking away from support from this policy day by day. it is a crisis for this white house. >> i would like to say that the trump administration is proceeding on ward and is normalizing in various ways even though i don't like some of their policies. this gas lighting on there issue, this deliberate looking in the camera and saying something that he knows is a lie is kind of like jaw dropping because last summer, john kelly said, we're considering doing this and then two months ago,

jeff sessions made a speech saying don't come to this country. we will separate you from your children if you come to this country. he's -- they're doing what they said they would do. it's their policy. >> it was designed as a deterrent. now it's in the spotlight and now there's backlash. do you think it could change now? >> let me just say this. we came out and talked about this again this week. we feel very strongly about this. if people are outraged they can do a few things. call their member of congress and ask them to hold the president accountable. they can protest. they can donate to organizations that help immigrant groups and they can vote. this is a really great issue to not just be outraged about but we can fix this. this is real people, real government is responsible here. and it's a moral abomination frankly. >> trying to pindown the president's exact position on immigration questions.

he'll say one thing in this meeting and a different policy emerges. it's been one of the more challenging areas to pin him down on. that is for sure. up next, these three will tell me something, this is the easiest job in the worlds. they'll tell me something i don't know. you're watching "hardball." (woman) so beautiful.

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and we're back with the "hardball" roundtable. mara, tell me something i don't know. >> this week in new york city, we are about to approve a budget that is likely going to be higher than $90 billion. which as it turns out is bigger

than the budgets of other of small countries like chile and i believe iran. >> all in one city. john? >> harvard university is going to go through a world of hurt because it is being sued on the grounds that it discriminates against asian-americans. it is discriminating against asian-americans doing something orifying and something done jews. they pretend already know quotas. they're going to get slammed and slammed hard. >> nick. >> people in the white house are quoting a bible verse today to defend that policy on family separation romans 13. it was also used over the american revolution by loyalist who's said it meant to stay loyal to the british crown. >> very interesting historical note there. nick confessore, john podhoretz, mara gay. that is "hardball" for now. thank you for being with us. chris matthews will be back on monday night. and "all in with chris hayes"

starts right now.. >> tonight on "all in." >> paul manafort has done an amazing job. he's here some place. where's paul. >> the president's campaign chairman in jail tonight. >> the you know, paul manafort worked for me for a very short period of time. >> a judge revoked paul manafort's bail after new charges of obstruction of justice. >> like manafort has nothing to do with our campaign. >> tonight, what this means for the mueller investigation and at increasing evidence of collusion. then. >> i always liked michael. >> the feds recover 700 pages of encrypted messages from trump's henchman michael cohen. >> look, i did nothing wrong. >> all in" has ob tabbed exclusive new details on some of the 2,000 children taken from their parents at the boarder. >> this is where at least 65 kids, migrant children from central america are living. >> when "all in" starts right now.