that's a wrap of this hour with msnbc live. i'll see you at noon. look at the time, it's 10:00 a.m. stay right where you are for a.m. joy for my friend joy reed. >> i hate the children being taken away. the democrats have to change their law. that's their law. the democrats forced that law upon our nation. i hate it. >> but there's no law that says that families have to be separated at the border. there's another way to go about it, mr. president. >> democrat's laws. >> good morning and welcome to "am joy." start with the fact that that's not true. but by now we are, of course,

all familiar with the president's routine lies about things large and small, everything from paul manafort's role in his campaign, more on that later, to the crowd size at his inauguration. but this particular lie that the democrats are responsible for a policy put in place by his own department of justice and announced by his attorney general is different. because it's an attempt to deflect blame for an urgent moral crisis happening at this very moment in our country. crisis of this president's own making, that donald trump has admitted he intends to use as leverage to further reduce immigration to the united states and to finally get his wall, which mexico is not going to pay for, but that he would like you to pay for. with these kids as hostages to make congress give him the money. so here is what we know. thanks in large part to the trump administration's policy of tearing undocumented children away from their parents, the number of migrant children living in government shelters now swelled to more than 11,000. nearly 2,000 minors have been separated from their parents in the last six weeks alone, at a

rate of 46 kids a day. some of the children are as young as 10 years old and many of the shelters use to house them including one in brownsville, texas, that used to be a walmart are at or above capacity. to handle the overflow, the trump administration now plans to erect a tent city in southern texas, where temperatures are already in the 90s. meanwhile, migrant parents are left fearing for their children and unable to help or even see them. one democratic congresswoman visited one of the detention centers and this is how she described the experience for migrant moms. >> many of these mothers have been there in detention, various detention facilities for over a month, not a one of them had spoken to their children. only two of them knew where their children were, but the rest of them had no idea where their children were and they wept every single time they talked about their children. and they talked about how they were deceived, how their children were taken away from them through deceptions. the mothers were literally

sitting in a room next to where the children were being held and could hear their children screaming, could not hug them, could not explain anything to them and just were heartbroken. >> now, it bears repeating that this is happening right now, right here in america. the question is, what are we going to do about it? let's bring in my panel. jacob visited a detention in brownsville, texas, this week doing incredible reporting. i want to go to you first, jacob. tell us, you know, the experience of going through that detention center and seeing these children. were you able to talk to kids directly? were you allowed to talk to them and get a sense of how long it had been since they had seen their moms and dads? >> yeah. i had, joy. we were asked not to, frankly, and the first thing that a shelter official said to us when we went inside was can you please smile at the kids?

they feel like animals locked up in cages being looked at. and it was a strange thing to say because relatively speaking the conditions are actually pretty good there in that shelter in brownsville, texas. nobody is in cages. nobody is in fences. you have a ton of licensed professional, social care workers and clinicians and medical care professionals because remember this facility was opened in 2017 to deal with phenomenon that had been happening for a long time in the united states. unaccompanied writy eied mie mo. it's overflowing today zero tolerance to rip children apart from their families. it is a manufactured crisis, self-inflicted crisis doesn't need to be happening. so there's two populations, two groups of young migrants in this what is really going to be called a detention facility, unaccompanied minors who came

here on their own and young children separated from their parents. those are the ones that didn't expect to be in this place, facing trauma, expected to be with their parents when they crossed the border. most of them go to the asylum process. >> so just to be clear, just where you ended there, jacob, these are parents seeking asylum. that are the children in this detention senter? >> 70% come into the united states by themselves. they present to the border patrol. they know whether through paying ac a coyote who tells them. the 30%, that's a skyrocketing number in this facility, have no idea whether they're going to end up in this place. they were ripped apart by this border patrol policy, cdp policy put into place by the attorney general and the president. and by the way, it's complete b.s. to hear the president, attorney general, sarah huckabee sanders say there's nothing knew

about this. nothing unusual about this or it's the democrat's policy. this has never ever been done before as a systematic policy to take kids away from their parents at the rate of 100%. it's just never been done before. it's reminiscent of native american children being taken away from their parents or children separated from their families japanese internment camps. this is not an immigration policy we've seen from the federal government before. >> kate, the talking points of the rnc is sending out this week to lawmakers and the way they want people to talk about this is blame the democrats. we have a copy of the talking points here. trying to put it off on them. but it's clearly a policy of the trump administration. the president has even said he intends to use this policy as leverage to try to force democrats to go along with a policy of reducing immigration over paying for the border wall. at the end of the day, this president is not going to run away from his own policy?

>> well, what i'm seeing in the electoral space i operate in and the public affairs space is a 50-year failure of both parties. so, whether the dnc or the rnc want to come in, we've got something called illegal immigration and that's what's in our republican primaries now and still a topic is illegal immigration. >> it's still the top topic in a way? >> it really is. it moves past jobs at certain times, even in south carolina where we don't have border anybody can cross into, it's a topic. and we see it very differently when it comes to children, we understand that they need to be taken care of. we get that parents are coming here, but the keyword that they're seeing electoral is they're coming here illegally. >> let me ask you this question because you and i know, katon, trying to push your party to a more open, sort of open arms toward other ethnic groups. you've done work on trying to do that, particularly in south carolina. but when you hear people, as you

said, in places where there isn't even a border, where they're not seeing this as a direct impact on their -- but they're so passionate about this issue of keeping people out, do you read that as demographic panic. we don't want those people here and we don't care if they take their kids. >> i don't specifically read it that way. i get it from a religious segment. we're rewarding people. they're breaking the law. we're not upholding the law. through a is often confused now. i think where the president is going, one time i'm always not the defend like the president is, we have to force congress to put something in cement about illegal immigration. now the ugly face is now show them we have to take people who have come here illegally. >> we try to get here too. there's nobody trying to break out of our country and everybody is trying to break in. >> these are asylum seekers.

running from gang violence and threats. these are people we typically used to welcome. >> we used to open our doors because we needed population and we needed workers and we needed people from the 1920s on up. now all of a sudden we see the enormity, the public is seeing the enormity of it when you hear how many children being brought by their parents. >> the numbers are not relatively high. the reality is we had a much greater influx of people from bavaria in the 1890s and ireland from the potato famine. 1920s we had the same thing, we didn't want asia or north africa. it is ethnic. i wonder if this makes you uncomfortable. i want to play -- there was great reporting not just by jacob, chris hayes was focussing on. spoke with a whistle blower named antar davidson who spoke to chris hayes about what it's like for staff workers. one of the l.a. times reports on him, he quit his job and said colleagues at a government

contracted detention center in arizona had a specific request for antar davidson who had three brazilian migrant children arrived, tell them they can't hug, the siblings, 16, 10 and 6 were distraught after being separated from their parents at the border. the children were huddled together, tears streaming down their faces, he said. officials had told them their parents were lost, which they interpreted to mean dead. let me let you now listen to antar davidson when he spoke with chris hayes this week. >> prison model in the guise of the shelter. the people at the end of the day when they have to put these people to sleep, oftentimes asked to stay overnight and worked an eight hour shift and on top of that these kids are very traumatized. they're running up and down the halls, screaming, crying for their mom, throwing chairs. and everyone is a tired, undertrained staff dealing with an increasingly traumatized and

uncompliant population of minors. >> people can't understand why republican voters and why, as you said, this largely evangelical christian base of trump isn't troubled by that? >> i can't say they aren't troubled by the humanitarian crisis of what we have. i can say problemmatically we have not solved the problem. we have 1989 miles of border. we only have 500 something of strategic fencing. we still have an open southern border. we haven't done enough to secure it. and they want that problem. that was one of the appealing things to trump when we had 16 candidates. >> immigration from zero it's demographic. one of the other things that chris hayes did this week was to call the hot line that parents are allowed to call to try to find their kids. this is what happened when they did that. >> thank you for calling the i.c.e. detention reporting and information line. information you provide during this call may be tribed and

retained in our call logs. this includes names, addresses, phone numbers, other personal identifiers, vehicle information and information related to criminal and immigration history. additionally, i.c.e. uses caller id to identify your phone number and may record your phone number if it's available through caller id. i.c.e. may disclose the information connected during this call within the department of homeland security or externally as appropriate and consistent with federal law and policy. >> that is pretty chilling if you're calling looking for your kids, warned, anything you say on this call may be used to deport you. >> that's right. joy, this is a horrific moment in our country. this is a trump-created moral crisis. anyone who thinks otherwise is complicit. the fact that we are having 2,000 children ripped apart from their parents, right, who -- had a 3-year-old son ripped apart

from his arms. and a few weeks later, he was so desperate and the pain from being separated from his son was so great that he committed suicide in border patrol custody. what we are doing to people who are seeking asylum, they have the right to seek asylum at our borders. that is how the system works. we have a domestic and international requirement to do so. they are not entering unlawfully as the other guest has been talking about. and the fact that when you as a parent are trying to find out where your children are and that hot line number that is given to you is about reporting yourself basically is frankly unconsciousable, and i think we, as taxpayers, we are the ones who have to have a zero tolerance policy against this administration. >> jacob the daily beast is reporting that defense contractors are now profiting off of this surge in detentions. there's a company called mvm and this is according to the reporting perhaps better known as security contractor for u.s. intelligence federal contracting data bases show mvm was awarded

a contract up to 8 million dollars over the next five years. in 2008, mvm lost a lucrative contract with cia failing to provide enough armed guards. when you went down to that texas facility, who owned it? it was a walmart, but is it -- is this a government contractor, a private company? >> no. that doesn't surprise me, joy. the majority of i.c.e. detention centers are also run by private contractors, private prisons essentially. the facility where the children are run by the department of health and human services and contracted out to nonprofits. so the owner of that building is a company called southwest key. they're a non-profit organization. one thing i do want to say about this whole idea that this is a deterrence to people coming into the united states illegally, the u.s. government has tried this before. in 1994, there was an official border patrol policy called prevention through deterrence during the clinton administration, built the first round of walls, fencing around urban areas and in the document it said, we think people are

going to stop coming or end up going in more dangerous ways where they risk their lives. guess what, people didn't stop coming. they went the more dangerous ways. and the number of people dying trying to cross into the united states ended up going up. what do you think will happen now? people are not going to declare asylum because they're scared of being separated from their children. so instead of declaring asylum, walking across the border between these ports of entry, you'll have migrants that run from the border patrol with little kids in places like arizona or aho or around the check point in southwest -- southern texas. you're going to see increase in people dying, trying to get into the united states, not a decrease in people trying to enter. they're just going to try to do it a different way. it is an inhumane way to stop people from trying to come into the united states. >> thank you very much. jacob, thank you very much for your excellent reporting this beak. you've been invaluable as a resource to el us what's going on there. thank you all very much. up next, using religion to

justify separating kids from their parents. stay with us. - i love my grandma. - anncr: as you grow older, your brain naturally begins to change which may cause trouble with recall. - learning from him is great... when i can keep up! - anncr: thankfully, prevagen helps your brain and improves memory. - dad's got all the answers. - anncr: prevagen is now the number-one-selling brain health supplement in drug stores nationwide. - she outsmarts me every single time. - checkmate! you wanna play again? - anncr: prevagen. healthier brain. better life.

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♪ it is very biblical to enforce the law. that is actually repeated a number of times throughout the bible. >> i would say gave to the apostle paul and his clear and wise command in romans 13 to obey the laws of the government

because god is ordaned the government for his purposes. >> trump administration officials have turned to the bible to try to justify separating migrant children from their parents. now, that should come as no surprise that attorney general sessions also thinks the bible can be used to justify the corner stone of trump's immigration agenda. >> the lord told me when he got to come back home to jerusalem to build a wall. that's the first thing he did wasn't to keep people in, to keep bad people out. i don't think there's a script churl basis that justifies any idea we must have open borders in the world today. >> joining me now is co-chairman of the poor people's campaign, and frank shaffer, religious reform activist and by shop. thank you for being here. bishop basher, the scripture used this week by the administration to justify separating parents from their children saying obey the laws of

the land and that they are the government was ordained by god, that same scripture has been used to justify loyal to england during the american revolution, forcible return to fugitive slaves, european clergy submission to hitler. it's a very commonly used scripture to say obey the government no matter what. does it have any pastoral use when it comes to the policy of separating minors. >> it's a misuse of text, it's a great misinterpretation. the text talks about government should be for good. it should not be for terror. keeps reading, loving your neighbor as yourself. this has been a common thing of slave master, slave holders that was used to justify the dred scott decision. i want to step back just a second. these attacks on immigrants period are unjustified and unbiblical. and anybody should be against this kind of political, just a

human being. attac attacks. the president being told at his inauguration building a wall was god's way. clearly jesus tore down walls and said welcome the stranger. what is added to this is the sin of making children prey. when you add that to already the sin, then what you have is what the bible calls the evil of making children prey. >> to your point, the rest of that scripture, which is romans 13, follows after the passage that attorney general sessions sites let no debt remain outstanding except the continuing debt to love one another for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. the commandments you shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet and whatever other command there be are summed up in this one command, love your neighbor as yourself. love does no harm to neighbor. therefore love is a fulfillment of the law. >> you can go to ezekiel 22 where it says there is

conspiracy of leadership that practices extortion, robbery oppressing the poor and mistreatment of the foreigner by denying them justice. jesus said judgment will come to a nation that does not welcome a neighbor. >> let's go to bishop curry, there have been some religious leaders who pushed back against this policy. cardinal dinardo say that while protecting our borders is important, we can and must do bedder as a government and as a society to find other ways to ensure they society. separating babies from their mothers is not immoral. one of our core convictions is that god established family as the fundamental building block of a society. one more, pastor bernard used to be a member of donald trump's council of clergy members said separating immigrant families at

the u.s./mexico border is a moral atrocity. it is heart wrenching to see children ripped from their parent's arms by border patrol agents. it's a calculate aid tack on children to discourage potential border crossers. franklin graham, this was his version of also criticizing the policy though he did not blame the president specifically. here is reverend graham. >> i think it's disgraceful, terrible to see families ripped apart. i don't support that one bit. and i blame the politicians for the last 20, 30 years that have allowed this to escalate to the point where it is today. >> so, not quite a criticism, bishop curry, but what do you make of the biblical justifications being used for this child separation policy? >> well, first i think barber said and others have said first of all the policy or practice of separating children from their

parents literally taking babies from their mother's arms, separating families, that is fundamentally profoundly un-christian and it's un-american. it is un-christian and unbiblical. first of all, st. paul is important, but remember for those who are christians, jesus is lord. and jesus says, love your neighbor. jesus says, love your enemy. jesus says welcome the stranger. gee suz of naf ret, they were refugees who fled persecution and immigrated to egypt. the government tried to persecute the holy family themselves. jesus was executed by lawful order of the roman empire, of the government. it's very important to remember that love of neighbor trumps everything. and that is fundamentally christian. american. every time i go to new york city and fly into new york, i see

that green -- that statue of the green statue of the statue of liberty, give me your tired, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. that's america. so, this policy and practice is un-christian. it is not consistent with jesus of nazareth. it's a contradiction and it is un-american.better than that. >> if you look at donald trump's rock solid support as of march among evangelicals, 75% approve 81% of evangelical men approving. we had katon dawson saying the core of his support is still evangelical christians. fox.com reported that that same romans 13 has been used to justify war with north korea, which is -- which donald trump supporters he's for it, they're for it. and last summer pastor robert jeffers, sited romans to say that god had given trump the authority to do whatever.

that's a quote. the authority to do whatever. up to and including nuclear war with north korea. >> well, you know, what's going on today is very clearly giving us a dividing line in our culture. and i would just put it this way, christians who still support trump who is separating mothers from babies are now condoning a form of child abuse. and beyond that, as a christian, i can just say i can't think of anything that would be more jesus hating. this isn't just jesus disobeying. this is jesus hating. everything the gospel stands for is contradictive, but there is hope. there are white republican voters who identify as evangelicals coming forward. for instance a new group. votecommongood.com has recently started to form a bus tour that will go coast to coast with evangelical, progressive, former

evangelical and other religious people on board appealing to that sliver of evangelical voters who look at this and are sickened as any american who loves this country would be. so, there are going to be repercussions for the republican party that have gone along, like pimps of evil, with this president. they are now defending as sarah huckabee does the undefensible, the indefensible. listen, these are not illegal immigrants. these are the children of people seeking asylum as jews did in the 1930s from nazi germany. can you imagine as we would look back at that history if jewish children had been ripped from their parent's arms arriving from this country seeking asylum and separated from their families. it would be right up there with the incarceration and imprisonment of japanese people. as we talk about, oh, we have this illegal immigrant problem. let's remember once again, it's worth repeating, these are

exclusively the children of asylum seekers. this is the child of the person by the side of the road in the parable of the good samaritan. this is the person who is unwanted and unloved, but they are asylum seekers. i say again, this autumn in the november election there are going to be bus tours starting in september from votecommongood.com that are going to take religious leaders, white evangelical leaders because we're the problem, white evangelical voters have become the problem. we put this man in power. it's up to us to do what franklin graham did. step up and do more and say this is not only disgusting and unbiblical, it is evil. we can no longer support this president even if we supported him before. it is a line of demarcation. it is the end. >> sorry. go ahead. >> i just want to say, well, there are a lot of things going on. i'm going across the country with poor people's campaign and

evangelicals who are not white but they are white, not this so-called right stuff are coming together in masses. but we have to deal with the race part of this. now, the separating of children goes back to slavery, tearing away children from their parents and selling them. richard spencer who said donald trump was his man when donald trump laid out his policy against immigrants, richard spencer said immigration is a kind of proxy war and may be a last stand for white americans who are undergoing painful recognition unless dramatic action is taken their grandchildren will live in a country that is alien and hostile. franklin graham, he blamed it on politicians. against voting rights. that's just as evil, you're undermining the ability to change the government. he's against health care. he's against people being cared for preexistence. so is trump. they haven't said anything about those things as well. we have to understand, it's wrong because of the children.

but the policy is wrong period. every form of immigration reform you can find, even bipartisan. i want my brothers and sisters to say, yes, yes the children part is evil but the scripture says woe unto those who legislate against evil and rob the poor of their right and make women and children their prey. their tax on the poor is wrong. the giving welfare to the corporations and letting people die on the streets is wrong. taking people's health care is wrong. we have to have a comprehensive response faith wise to us going on. that's why the poor people's campaign is saying, we have to deal with systemic racism, systemic poverty, war economy and this false christian nationalism which is contrary to the gospel on almost every policy that's coming out of this administration. >> frank shaffer, before i come back to bishop curry, help us understand those who are not conversant with this sort of new

theology. i can recall "morning joe" they were talking about the fact that evangelical christians became uncomfortable with george w. bush at the end of the campaign and may have cost him a lot of votes because of an unalleged dui. there is solid sup for roy moore among white evangelical voters in the state of alabama although he lost, he didn't lose those voters. solid support for anything donald trump has done in the past a mulligan is the word that's being used on infidelity. what is this about? because there is also this turning against voting rights, against health care. it's sort of comprehensive. and even this policy, katon dawson mentioned this policy is supported very strongly by white evangelical christians. answer that first. >> bishop barber is entirely correct. of course, this is a bigger picture and part of it is this is a reaction to eight years of black man being in the white house. part of this support for trump is just straight out reaction to

that. racism. you know, back in the '70s and '80s my father francis shaffer was instrumental in forming what became the religious right. they laid the ground work for idolatry of access to power above all else. that was the deal. and they brought with them a lot of evangelicals never cured of their racism. there's always a search for the next enemy that's going to help the white evangelical racist church raise money, get their fire up their people and make them angry and now help them vote republican. i would just say about this, children incarceration, maybe a line has been crossed that won't change these people minds, it might peel off to change the

election. after all, this guy won because of 86,000 votes that could have kept him out of the white house. we only need to appeal to the conscientious of a few people and just say, listen, are you trying to follow jesus? if you are, you have to repent of what you've done. >> and then to give us the how do we do that, bishop curry, what is the message to translate across these racial and religious lines? >> well, i would suggest that in addition to what my colleagues have said, there is a fundamental distortion of christianity of the christian faith. the christian faith is grounded on and based on the teachings and the life of jesus of nazareth. it's interesting to me that you do not hear comments, you hear romans 13 quoted, but you don't hear jesus who is the lord for christians you don't hear the sermon on the mount. love your enemies. blessed are the poor and the poor in spirit. you don't hear jesus teachings, do unto others as you have them

do unto you. you don't hear matthew 25, do it to least of these the members of these who done it to me. matthew 22, love the lord your god and love your neighbor as yourself on this hangs all the law and the profits. if it doesn't look like love, if it doesn't look like jesus of nazareth, it cannot be claimed to be christian. we are experiencing a fundamental distortion of christian teaching of what it means to follow jesus. and if it doesn't look like jesus of nazareth, you cannot claim that it is christian. >> i feel like you're getting amens all over america right now. all three of you. bishop william barber of the poor people's campaign, thank you so much, bishop michael curry, frank shaffer thank you so much who tole us about the vote common good. here is today's cover of the new york daily news which captures the heart attack. this is heart breaking of the young children being separated from their moms and dads at the border. as the paper says this policy is

callous, soulless, craven. trump. that is their headline. we'll be right back.

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don't do business without it. don't live life without it. ♪ manafort has nothing to do with our campaign, but i feel -- i tell you, i feel badly about it. they went back 12 years to get things that he did 12 years ago. paul manafort worked for me for a very short period of time. he worked for ronald reagan. he worked for bob dole and john mccain or his firm.

he worked for many other rx. he worked for me 49 days, very short period of time. paul manafort is now in jail. on friday, a judge said the only way to prevent manafort from tampering with witnesses in the mueller investigation was to lock him up. saying that because this isn't middle school, she just couldn't take away his phone. as to trump's claim it was only 49 days that paul manafort worked on his campaign, it was 144 days. in that time a few notable things happened. june 9th, paul manafort along with donald trump jr. and jared cukushner met with a russian lawyer. change that made the platform more pro russia. and on july 25th, trump tweeted that reports russia was behind the dnc e-mail hack were, quote a joke and two days later he said this -- >> russia, if you're listening, i hope you're able to find the

30,000 e-mails that are missing. >> well, trump can claim all he wants that manafort was a coffee boy. the truth is he ran the trump show during a critical time during the campaign. i'll start with you, natasha to clear up this idea that manafort was barely involved in the campaign. remind the viewers if you will just how involved he was? >> well, he was there for almost five month. he was hired to rangle delegates to the convention. at the time that paul manafort was brought on, nobody thought that trump would win the election and thought it would be a contested convention. paul manafort was brought on as the expert. he was involved in virtually everything. thert plotting together as they rode up and down in the trump tower. his daughter texted that to the friend. he was essentially very close to donald trump and now that trump

is trying to down play his relationship with manafort it's safe to say that he is worried because, of course, he's also tried to down play his involvement of george papadopoulos, for example, who was a very involved foreign policy adviser to the campaign as we've seen from many documents and interviews that he gave. so, this is i think a sign that he is trying to distance himself from manafort because she worried about what he could potentially tell prosecutors. >> absolutely. paul manafort indicted now. rick gates his former partner already pleaded guilty, as has michael flynn, george papadopoulos also pleaded guilty. one lawyer, one digital marketing strategist, 14 russian nationals, 3 russians and 3 guilty pleas. conspiracy to launder money, false and misleading statements, failure to file reports at a foreign bank and financial accounts and conspiracy against the united states. for those who say none of that has to do with collusion with

the trump campaign, what say you? >> so, it's all about collusion obstruction of justice. mueller knows that's his focus and certainly true that manafort hadn't been charged with any of these crimes. what do we know? we know that rick gates has copped a deal. he's cooperating. we also know that mueller is going after manafort like he's a stone cold thug. so, he obviously knows something that we don't. he knows something is up. that's why what happened yesterday is so significant because it dramatically increases the pressure on manafort to cut a deal. >> to flip. >> yeah. he's in a very difficult prison. no prison is nice the place he's at is hard core. so there's something about sitting there. he's a 69-year-old man. whatever deal he works out now is jail time. the question is whether it's a life sentence or something he can at some point come home to his family. >> does it surprise you he

hasn't cut a deal yet? >> it does. he has the most serious charges. the first on charged. some of them are really tough to defend. so, he's going down. yeah, i don't know. maybe it's these pardons that trump has been handling. maybe that's making him hold out. >> let's listen to donald trump floating the idea or talking the idea of pardoning manafort and cohen. >> will you pardon paul manafort? >> i haven't even thought about it. >> what about michael flynn? >> i haven't thought about any of them. >> it's far too early to think about that. >> they haven't been convicted of anything. there's nothing to pardon. it's far too early -- it is far too early to be thinking about it. >> so we'll think about that for just a moment. i want to come back to you, natasha. the other thing he did is picked mike pence. he hand picked mike pence. pushed for mike pence to be the vice president so mike pence

should donald trump in theory be impeached and replaced be president. interestingly enough he also in his dealings with yanukovych, the president of ukraine, the person he pushed to get in, that happened to be a regime that was anti-eu, broke with the eu and was very pro russia. so is the thinking around trump world there's also a theme here in the things that manafort has done in the past that they tended to help russia, tended to hurt the eu? >> this is why when rick gates decided to cooperate with prosecutors the reporting was that the prosecutors didn't really want to know anything more about paul manafort's shady business dealings. they wanted to know what rick gates knew about potential coordination between the kban and russia. and that is an indication, of course that they believe that paul manafort was continuing his dealings with these pro russian elements during the election and whether or not he then influenced the campaign in a way that would draw them closer to russia. because of course when paul manafort came on, that is when

all of a sudden all these russia related episodes started happening in the campaign. >> the thing we know is this guy who was indicted with manafort with witness tampering his name is constantine, this dude is an ex-russian spy. during the time that manafort is running trump's campaign, he's in constant contact. according to politico, he and kill ma knack discussed the dnc hackings. a russian spy trump's campaign manager are talking as he's leading the campaign. so this is the key to collusion. this is why i think mueller is leaning so hard on man dafort. >> it's a history of having done it before. interfering in an election and pushing it close to russia. thank you very much. coming up in our next hourks we'll tell you about something called cult 45 and cynthia nixon will be here to make the appeal

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mr. president, is it humane to separate children from their families? >> that's the democrats doing that. >> the people in the fbi r

incredible. i would bet if you could a poll in the fbi i would win that by more than anybody's ever won a poll. i beat clinton die nasty, bush dynasty and i guess i'm in the process of beating very dishonest intelligence. >> they all call me to wish me happy birthday. >> how was that? >> not your birthday but the message from the other side. >> i took it very well. >> trying to make sense of donald trump has become something of a cut age free. my next guest is one of the few who can in fact decode this president. joining me now tony schwartz. thank you so much for being here. >> not so ghosty, you can see my name's -- >> you're name's actually on it. >> not that i said that with pride. >> so you have been tweeting this week and saying i think pretty consistently that the media sort of ers is the way it

treats donald trump. >> i believe the media needs to give up on the pretext of -- this is entirely a story about a man acting out of severe personality disorder. reporters don't know how to hand it so they avoid it. presidency is all about mental illness. his rerecall tality testing is . rapidly escalating risk. >> and one other thing you tweeted is imagine if he was a democrat. he would have long since been impeached or forced to resign. >> why do you think that the media consistently ties to analyze him as a typical president and why shouldn't they? >> well they tried to because that's the world we -- that's the core culture we understand. what we can see and measure is what's real. that's post enlighten.

modernism. problem is it leaves out the interior life and where mental health and illness reside. in trump's case, you cannot analyze his behaviors rationally because they're not rational. they're a function of what's going on, or what's missing internally. >> let me let you listen to a couple p sound bytes and tell me what you hear, writing art of the deal so getting into his head a little bit. here he is calling into "morning joe." talking will vladimir putin. >> do you like vladimir putin's comments about you? >> sure. when people call you brilliant, it's always good. especially when the person heads up russia. he's running his country and at least he's a leader unlike what we have in this country. >> again, he kills journalists that don't agree with him. >> i think our country does plenty of killing also, joe.

>> what do you hear there? i have just been thinking the past couple of weeks -- i should say the past week since the summit with kim jong-un and his comment about he'd like his people to stand up and salute. if he had the lack of consequence if he breaks the law -- i believe, this is going to be have extreme. i believe he would be murdering as many enemies as kim jong-un does. that his lack of conscience ais so extreme and inner sense of emptiness, so what he has is a blend of paranoia, which i said in the tweet, paranoia, gran deyosty, and cruelty. cruelty just take the immigrants, who are being -- kids separated from the parents,

the cruelty is a way of punishing the people who he perceives as his enemies. so, that blend of qualities make me believe that trump has cast his lot now. i don't know for sure that he would have with less power and less stress, but he's cast his lot with authoritarians and dictators and they behave in predictable ways. >> this is an interview on wednesday about kim jong-un and his sort of admiring comments about him. >> he's the head of a country, and i mean he's the strong head. don't let anyone think anything different. he speaks and his people sit up at attention. i want my people to do the same. >> there was another one where he said he's a tough guy. when you take over a country, tough people and you take it over from your father, i don't

care who you are, how much of an advantage, if you can do that at 27 years old, that's one in 10,000. he's a very smart guy. great negotiator. reminded he's done bad things. yeah so have a lot of others. >> only a person with no conscience could say that. that is deranged. this is a man who's murdered thousands and thousands of people. that's not a common practice. >> when you sat with trump, did you ever hear him expraes -- he obviously has a lot of resentmen resentments. did you ever hear them express softness or gentleness or empathy? >> no. he doesn't have empathy. he -- i've been talking about this for a long time now, and i feel like it's extreme to keep repeating it, but also, what we need to hear. he lacks a soul and he lacks a heart. this is what happens to a person who grows up with a sense of

deep inner emptiness whose sense of self is always at risk and fundamentally a black hole and all the stuff that comes in that makes him feel good from outside seeps out quickly and he needs to put it back quickly. he isn't in the business of empathy. he's in the business of trump. >> scary. tony, thank you very much for being here. always scary to talk to you but always a pleasure. thank you very much. e listeningt matters most to you. and we're committed to improving every ride. starting with features designed to make it easy for your driver to find you... taking the stress out of pickups. ♪ we're putting safety at the heart of everything we do... by making it easy to verify your car, and driver. uber has new leadership, a new vision, and is moving in a new direction... forward

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we swear allegiance to the 0 of constitution and pledge agreej ens to the flag. what's weird about this race was an allegiance question where people say are you for or against the president. i've never before had a question of allegiance to a person rather than the flag or the constitution. to a degree, that's what this race came down to. >> what we've learned once again that there is a new litmus test in the republican party. pledge absolute enhthusiastic allegiance or risk lose your prima primary. this was in south carolina, mark sanford lost to an opponent who framed the test as a loyalty test. then in virginia, republicans

nominated corey stuart for the united states senate to take on 2016 tim kane. he has called his fellow republicans weak for criticizing the white nationalists who rallied in charlottesville. he claimed he was trump before trump was trump. while many republicans are keeping their distance he won trump's seal of approval. now even republicans -- departing anyway, are calling out their party as total vow of obedience to trump using a word that recalls a quasi religious devotion. here's soon to be retiring tennessee senator bob corker. >> it's becoming a cult-ish thing, isn't it? not a good place for any party to end up with a cult-like situation as it relates to a president that happens to be of

purportedly of the same party. >> joining me now political marketing consultant, breitbart media consultant and john harwood. this is former house speaker john boehner last month talking about the state of your party, of the republican party. >> there is no republican party. there's a trump party. republican party is taking a nap somewhere. >> and "the washington post's" pa paul -- this president not only promotes but demands. what matters to him is hutch less where you stand than whether you display the procedure level of devotion, lauding his keen mind and marveling at his gigantic hands. do all that and the republican base won't turn on you. that seems to be more or less the case. >> well, when we look add at the last election cycle as

republicans we had 16 candidates and i remember sitting in a room with people far more important than me saying we're going find out who we are now. we're going to find out who the republican party is going to be. great debate cycle. all the super stars in it. and we found out what the base wanted and what they wanted. throw everybody in washington out. drain the swamp. illegal immigration. and donald trump won. he does demand loyalty. no question about that. so at the end of the day, we're defining, and i hear what bob corker, who's my friend, says and mark sanford, who was governor while i was party chairman, and we're still trying to figure out who exactly the party is. but the pear harty has changed. >> have they changed or did donald trump really understand the base of the party maybe more than the republicans who were saying it's all about, you know, tax rates and other things that sort of the elites in the party cared about. but donald trump vis rally got

to the point the base cares about immigration ant that's what i'm going to run on it's more of a demographic message than a fiscal message. maybe the base was understood more by him. >> i think that's absolutely correct. not just him. because i want to draw parallels between him and corey stuart who won the primary in virginia. in 2006, he made an issue when he was elected to the board of supervisors, chair of the board, he made a huge issue about illegal immigration. and he used all kinds of, i wouldn't even say dog whistle, all kinds of dog bullhorn language, rhetoric, and he got elected using that language, using that ret tohetorirhetoric. he also was very much a neo confederate back then. i think what trump does and does well is reads the tea leaves. sees where trends are going and jumps on top of those trends. trump does not invent anything

on his hoown. he's very masterful reading people, especially angry people. when he was attacking peop people -- yonged by the system. when he started that, that was at a time when there was a lot of fear and anger in new york city and he tapped into thand the anger and he's doing the exact same thing right now, and he is tapping into the anger of people in the party directing it towards people of color, minorities et cetera, and its eworking. >> just to follow up on corey stuart in 2016, he bragged i was trum before trump. he said the removal of statutes is akin to what isis would do. he was called anti-semitic, anti-muslim. he called wisconsin paul kneel -- i want to play for you john john harwood, what mark sanford said on thursday talking

about the sense of tribalism that's taken over. >> i've been amazed at the number of different members who have come up to me over the last 24 hours since i've been back on the hill and have talked about a tribalism component to what's going on in the party, and with the trump effect that worries him and they've never seen before. >> you know, john, you and i have been on the air talking about the transformation of what used to be sort of the run-of-the-mill, larry -- talking like trump and have to go publicly emote how much they love him, even if it we all hear behind the scenes republicans are complaining about him. is that different from -- we saw devotion to george w. bush too. is this similar? or there something different about what's happening specifically with this president? >> i think it's different.

i think what's happened is over an extended period of time, the republican party has driven itself into a cul-de-sac that does not allow it to keep pace with the way the country's changing. they've gotten trapped into appealing for more and more votes from a smaller and smaller group of people, and what the result of that is is the purest kind of identity politics, white identity politics, and more than that, segmented by education. essentially, the republican party right now is about arousing whites who have not been a college, and doing it around a set of issues. you talked about confederal flags and monuments and immigration. all of these things. i remember covering the republican party in the mid 1990's when bob dole was running for the republican nomination. he ran against pat buchanan. and everyone was wondering are

the issues buchanan was pushing going to triumph, or the suburban republicanism. bob dole won that. he would not win that fight today, because we've gotten into this white identity politics that donald trump is the ultimate exemplar of. >> you once consulted breitbart.com which sort of champions that kind of message, sort of an existential fight about who america is going to be. of course the republican party is now an almost exclusively white party in terms of the numbers of minorities are small. donald trump's approval rating is exception nally high. 87%. second highest rating that gallop has mentioned behind george w. bush right after 9/11.

and donald trump's influence over the party is so great that you hear the leanings towards russia where this used to be a reagan-ite party. you have a recent public policy poll showing that canada's favorable rating is down to 54%. trump has incredible influence over the base. in a sense, republican politicians don't have much choice. if they want to get re-elected, the base belongs to donald trump there is a lot of demographic panic. >> there's an irony, really that success is almost killing the republican party here, joy. i think the only thing that may be able to save any sem fwlens the republican party once was is losing congress in november. as much as the success of having on some level. look at breitbart. a year ago there were some 14

million audiences, take over everything. just in the last 24 hours politico reported their audience has shrunk for the seventh consecutive month. even though there's a lot of noise and power in the base, it's not anywhere that you can grow the republican party. if you want to look ahead and see where this path will take them, where the trump agenda will take them, look what happened to the california republican party and,000 they've declined. don't don't -- look how john cox is going to do this november and how he's going to get trounced. that's a clear signal of where this agenda will take you in the long run when you caster to onl white people. where you ignore most of americans fall on most of the issues. that is a fast track path to minority status indefinitely. >> there's a great book called "the end of white christian america" that i recommend people

read. t the -- chronicled this. decline in the number of americans reporting as white and christian, but there is a sense of loss that's associated with that per his polling, that people feel panicked about it. this used to be in their minds a white christian country. one party saying we will stop that. we will reduce the number of immigrants coming in. that is what donald trump is at base saying. it's hard to imagine how else the party can grow. if that's not the way, the polls -- this could work. you could get more white voters to vote based on this. i wonder if this just is the republican party now, if it there's any other way. >> i'm not sure of that. what i am sure of is i've seen in the polling we take in states where i do business and public

affairs, and i have seen the questions we ask of do you go to church once, twice a week. we've seen that all decline. and also what i've seen with the trump effect is -- i'll tell you. when you become president of the united states of a party, you inherit and take over the party. you're the lead er. he's done thatnd at numbers are there. i haven't seen whether the base has increased or decreased out of the 30's, that's another number to watch. what he did do is brought a lot of people out that felt d disenfranchised from the last president. it was surprising that trump won. we were surprised. we were having a conversation about where our party is and who our party was, and donald trump loudly and clearly showed that he could win on his agenda and his message. so, now what we're seeing is, and i've never seen voters that really cared about policy. i just haven't. but i've seen them care about

personalities. taking a look at the policies and has it helped them personally. and that's where donald trump's success has been. >> except what you want seen, the tax cuts haven't helped the vast majority of people. sort of an existential policy, that immigration is not something that -- there's no border. it's no the that it's personal. it's communicating something demographically that's obviously appealing, and i'm not sure there is a counter to it. >> i spent a lot of time in central pennsylvania. what i've noticed there is a lot of those voters, a lot of them are already republican but they definitely gravitated to trump's message despite the fact some of them are union voters, nurses, et cetera, and they gravitated to his message despite the fact it wasn't necessarily parts of them helped them but parts didn't have any impact at all. there's not a lot of immigration in central pennsylvania. none of these things that people

think are -- none of these things directly affect them. but yet they gravitated to trump's message. i do think that yes, personality plays a role in it. we have personality driven politics all over the world now, no the just the u.s. >> absolutely. this is happening all over the world. >> but i do think there are two sets of people within the party. public trump supporters and the secret ones. they are people who are upwardly mobile. they have -- already been fit financially. weren't doing poorly to begin with. and so had how do you account for them? you account for them because they are also it's about the democrat. demographic. race. because why else -- if they were doing well under obama -- >> backing -- get our remote guest in. because i wonder, then, in sort of the where the republican

matter, where they're discussing where to go. because right now, we just have to follow this guy like it or not. >> couple things. first, a lot of those secret trump voters who are up wardly mobile are happy because he's put money in their pocket. the second thing is that to your point, about whites and christianity, analysis of trump's base in 2016 showed it was disproportionately people who were less educated, identity as white people was powerful as a moat vatder. it's not personality, per se, it is psychological identification. it is that people are saying donald trump is standing up and talking for me. and if somebody like mark sanford is criticizing him, that means he's not standing up and talking for me. i think that explains the grip that donald trump has on people who see the country moving away

from them and feel helpless to stop it. donald trump is an answer to that. >> you know, you saw steven miller very quietly ticking away inside. people like--it does feel like the ban non agenda, even without him there. >> trump's vocabulary and phrasing hasn't changed at all since he was candidate trump to now. success is working. why would you change anything if it's still working for you. i think we also need to tautd of start talking about while all this is unfolding, the democrats need toe have a message that communicates to these people. right now no one's talking to them except donald trump so where else do they look if no un's going to talk to em this. there's a huge void right now. they feel like donald trump is the only one who cares about them. about changing things in washington they've come over two decades to despise. democrats need to start talking

to them. >> my producer is going to kill me. quickly. tara giving -- >> tara hit it from the silent voters. here's what we know. this is the bob corker. when you lay all your groceries on one table. with one person, that's who they're voting for. he's had trouble transferring his popularity to the ballot. you're hearing from the party establishment of we're now following a personality and a person, and no the an idealogical. ronald reagan taught you how to be a conservative. that's why it went further and further. that's where we came from. there's your concern, not just cult ish. i hear what you're saying. are we going to lose everything because we put all our eggs in one political basket. >> 40 to 60% of those people who don't vote. which of those would you spend more time on, converting these people on or try to get the ones that don't vote. >> i would go after the voters who are not voting who are

already democrats. at the end of the day, the trump voters have shown that no matter what he does, they are going to support him. it does not matter. secret trump supporters, before the tax cut, they were supporting him. public trump supporters are out there and if you attack trum, you attack them. those are not the voters democrats are are going to win. when they need to have and what they do individually, all politics is local, you're seeing the turnout increase. because they're speaking to local issues in their distributes. >> and non voters, a lot of them. >> thank you very much. always good to have you here in person. thank you guys very much. up next, move over putin. donald trump's got a new autocrat besty. north korea's kim jong-un. stay with us. we may be one of the world's most familiar companies, but we make more than our name suggests.

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he's the head of a country, and i mean he's the strong head. don't let anyone think anything different. he speaks and his people sit up at attention, i want my people to do the same. >> let's unpack that. donald trump praising the perks of being a dictator, in this case kim jong-un wanting, quote, my people to show the same kind of deference that kim enjoys in north korea. the comment was made one day after footage as released after trump soluting.

>> this was trump's response from the media. pushed back on his apparent autocrat envy. >> what did you mean just now when you said you wished americans would sit up at attention. >> i'm kidding. you don't understand car character. who are you with? cnn? >> joining me now malcolm. national iranian american counsel. im a ge to go come to you on this first this is what your study is about. he seems to admire the fact that kim jong-un has absolute power. and he even made some comments about kim being able to kill people. i mean just the idea that he had absolute power over his people. the fact they showed fervor. they have to. they don't have a choice. there is something to that and it does seem to be consistent? >> this is how he behaved his

entire life and running for office. these rallies he had were typical of a demagogue and during that time he was praising dictators, praised various prot toe fascists that were running for office in europe. we are way past hypotheticals. we are way past wondering how he would govern if he gets in. he would govern with children snatched from their parents and put into camps. he would govern by attacking freedom of the press of assembly, judiciary, and he is governing without anybody checking him with the gop being absolutely complicit in these policies. if you think trump will not try to establish a state of control over american citizens, similar to kim jong-un and our dictators, you're wrong. he will absolutely try. he will keep going, and the more he's under pressure during that

probe, the harder he will attempt to consolidate his power. >> to be honest, the united states has in the past sub borned dictators and sort of a dictator thought could bring stability. but the united states has not -- we changed the regime in iran for most of that. put someone in who was an autocrat. it's not as if the united states has never before aligned itself. i think the difference is sort of the affirmative praise that you hear coming out of donald trump. i wonder when other countries that we are attempting to either negotiate with in the world, or that we're trying to prevent them from sort of expanding things like nuclear ambitions. thinking iran and other countries in the middle east et cetera. when they listen to donald trump praise someone like kim jong-un in this way, in your view, what do you think they hear and what does that do to their policies toward us? how do they act?

>> well, a couple of things. first of all, we can take some of the allies the united states. you now have a crown prince, absolute dictator in saudi arabia that is very close to trump. he seems to admire just as much as he admires other dictators. they're saying what's wrong with an absolute monarchy. in the past they tended to say we're moving slowly in our own pace. but now, with the way trump is behaving, it's much easier to say there's nothing wrong with dictatorship and monarchy in saudi arabia. they now see themselves as having a support in the united states to continue with dicta forrial policies. then you have enemies or rivals of the united states that see this and also recognize that trump's admiration for power and unconstrained power is part of the reason why he is essentially the north korean's get away with a lot, while at the same time, he is killing the iran nuclear

deal. unfortunately, i think a lot of people in iran are thinking they should have gotten a nuclear weapon before they went to the negotiation table rather than just having enrichment. >> it is interesting that donald trump admires certain autocratic regimes and not others. . iran deal -- president obama negotiated so there's nothing good about the deal in his view. but i wonder if now we have seen north korean state television replay over and over donald trump soluting that north korean general. they can hear him praising the autocrat, people like kim jong-un. people like of course vladimir putin. so i wonder is intelligence services around the world, then think how do we deal with this president. how much does this weaken the united states's sort of power to deal with the regimes? >> it weakens the united states greatly. over the last year, we have seen

regime after regime. that's a good word for those governments. they are regimes, who have figured out donald trump unlike every president from washington to obama, who have maintained america's power, authority and dignity in terms of democracy. these regimes have figured out donald trump can be bought. i mean just straight up purchased. and you either purchase him through either money, or you purchase him by massaging his ego. we saw it with saudi arabia. he was speaking badly about muslims. he gets there, he's lavished with attention, and luxuries, at the highest level and coming back their absolute best friend. kim jong-un and every other intelligence agency in the world has evaluated donald trump as an easy mark. this is the kind of guy you want in your casino. right? if you want to lure him in, lure him in with the things he most cherishes which is enriching

himself, his family and not meeting the values of the united states, by showing you are an authoritarian. >> sara, what's interesting is you had in france donald trump initially short of was warm toward emmanuel macron. showed him a big military parade. there was a weird handshake and then he comes back and again is completely distanced from not just france but all the western allies. i think our allies also see he can turn his base against canada. he can turn his base against the countries as well. i'm wondering where do we stand in the global alliances if our allies no the only watch donald trump sort of turn on them, but also a portion of the american people? >> i think it's hard to tell at this point. how the american people feel. i live in a red state. lived in a state that voted for trump and i don't think people are particularly happy about the trade policies. especially with canada. because it's going to affect them economically. i'm no the sure people are

willing to label canada the enemy. but i do think this view that trump has of our traditional western allies as the enemies and as a dictatorships as the new allies is going to have repercussions beyond trump's tenure in office. there is no real reason for the traditional allies to trust us anymore. we have not kept our word. this is an issue where other people in the trump administration, beyond trump himself, should really be speaking out forcefully, if they disagree with trump's policies. they have not been doing so. they have been treating trump like a dictator, which is exactly how he wants to be treated. >> if, you know, there's also the fact that donald trump seems to have given away quite a bit, ending our exercise with south korea et cetera. the world powers see he talks quite tough but in the end doesn't get much, what does that do to the negotiating position? >> well, one of the earlier commenters said. this is a guy that's pretty easy

to figure out. you can get a much better deal with him by just being able to massage his ego and allow him to claim that he had a victory. that's all that matters. it's the image, optics of some form of victory. he has a base that doesn't look really far into these different things so they're quite gullible when this culls to these things. what was achieved was a photo op and handshake. nothing really beyond that. he is touting that as if the nuclear crisis with north korea has ended. this is extremely dangerous, because there are actual real threats here that need to be addressed in a very effective way. he's not doing that. in my view, he's really endangering the national security of the united states. >> very quickly, malcolm, while that is going on, is it possible for the intelligence services for the sort of apparatus of government that the right calls the deep state, to still be maintaining the relationships that can make this not a total catastrophe when the next

president comes along? >> yes. we maintain our operational and strategic relationships with ear intelligence agencies. the question is will those other intelligence agencies trust critical information to the united states which infuriate donald trump personally? i charge they won't. they won't do anything that will benefit the united states if they know that it will get to the president of the united states, and he will misuse that. i'm sorry. i know there's a lot of intelligence watch officers in the world who watch this program. they're forced to. they themselves know if there's something out there which is critical to the security of the united states, but which could be compromised by the president of the united states, they won't get it. >> wow. thank you very much, all of you for being here. and next up, the biggest threat not trump administration could start right here in new york. and the woman who wants to be

the next governor of new york cynthia nixon joins me live. stay with us. yeah, you? [ roaring ] [ screaming ] nope. rated pg-13. kyle, we talked about this. there's no monsters. but you said they'd be watching us all the time. no, no. no, honey, we meant that progressive would be protecting us 24/7. we just bundled home and auto and saved money. that's nothing to be afraid of. -but -- -good night, kyle. [ switch clicks, door closes ] ♪ i told you i was just checking the wiring in here, kyle. he's never like this. i think something's going on at school. -[ sighs ] -he's not engaging. in the movies, a lot of times, i tend to play the tough guy. but i wasn't tough enough to quit on my own. not until i tried chantix. chantix, along with support, helps you quit smoking.

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only when you book with expedia. . ♪ so, the reporters said to me the other day. but mr. trump, you're not a nice person. how can you get people to vote for you? i said i don't know. i said i think that number one, i am a nice person, i give a lot of money away to charities and

other things. i think in' actually a very nice person. >> surprise, surprise. turns out he's neither nice nor generous. a new lawsuit by new york's attorney general alleges his charitable foundation was basically an illegal slush fund. the president along with three of his adult children are accused of violating multiple counts of state and federal law. according to the suit the foundation engaged in improper and extensive political activity. back with the msnbc analyst. >> this is a 41-page document 0 of stories of really shady conduct by the trump organization. this is a president who catches a lot of cases but this one is particularly egregious. not just his usual move of using other people to pay his own personal bills, but here he's exploiting veterans. people who thought they were supporting our troops were

actually making campaign contributions to help his ground gain in front of the iowa caucuses. has this man no shame? >> let's read element 3 from the attorney general's statement on an iowa fundraiser. the attorney general's investigation found that the foundation raised in exsez of $2.8 million in a manner designed influence the election. foundation raised the funds from the public at a nationally televised fundraiser he held in lieu of participating in the debate on june 28, 2016. he said i'm no the going to the debate. im a ge to go hold this fundraiser and it was also a scam. >> yeah. what the ag suit says is collusion that trump's campaign coordinated with this foundation in order to help the campaign. this foundation had a board that had not met for 19 years. there are people on the board who didn't know they were on the board. it's also about self-dealing.

again, this is a tax-free organization. there are all kinds of rules that simply are not followed. again, they bought space in a program, paid for an advertisement for trump's hotel. this ag has a history with trump. trump made the same kinds of claims this isn't going to go anywhere. new york ag sued trump university. he ended up settling that case for $25 million. >> just to your point the foundations board existed in name only, did not oversee the activity. also from the lawsuit, donald trump has not personally contributed any funds to the foundation, which instead was supported by donations to other people. one more. on march 20, 2014. donald trump caused the foundation to pay $10,000 for the winning bid on a painting of mr. trump at a charity auction for the unicorn children's foundation. trump organization used the painting at a trump national in miami.

you can't have your foundation pay for something that's for your hotels. >> it's almost like they weren't even pretending. the little money they gave out, at a campaign rally, it would be a check. and the item line said make america great again. so, this is a civil lawsuit now, there are criminal implications. ag referred it to the campaign board, federal campaign board and also the irs. there's exposure for tax evasion, and also for false statements. >> and during the campaign, donald trump made a lot of hay out of the clinton foundation which raises a lot of money t k particularly for aids foundation. >> are you surprised it's only now that a lot of this -- obviously he did incredible work during the campaign but only now coming to a lawsuit. >> this is a very careful

document. it's 41 pages of voluminous a d evidence. they have had their own issues. this new ag stepped right in. she's serious. this is an office that has a history with this man. >> it's not just donald trump. his two sons and his daughter, one of his daughters. what kwo happen in theory? >> so the remedy that's sought is $3 million. now, mr. president, your organization needs to give it to the veterans. also saying the next 10 years, the president, don jr., ivanka and eric should not be allowed to serve on any charitable board because they don't know what they're doing. also millions of dollars in penalties. the judge will have a say in that. again, there's always the possibility of federal criminal

prosecution. >> very interesting. thank you very much. stay connected to our am joy family during the week. subscribe to our msnbc news letter. next msnbc to 66866 or go to msnbc.com/news letters. up next, cynthia nemix son. h a higher risk of stroke due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin, i'm up for that. eliquis. eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. plus has significantly less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis is fda-approved and has both. so what's next? seeing these guys. don't stop taking eliquis unless your doctor tells you to, as stopping increases your risk of having a stroke. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. while taking eliquis, you may bruise more easily

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new york is a 2 to 1 democratic state. and in this era of trump, we should be a beacon here. of what is possible, but instead, we are a place with the highest income inequality in the entire country. where children of color are told explicitly and implicitly that their lives do not matter as much as their white counterparts. former "sex in the city" star cynthia nixon has pulled a lot of buzz and is pulling cuomo behind in the polls. joining knee now is candidate cynthia nixon.

thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> i want to play your ad run. i thought it was quite good. >> thank you. >> we want our government to work again on health care, ending mass incarceration. fixing our broken subway. we're six of politicians caring more about headlines and power than us. it can't just be business as usual anymore. if we're going to get to the root problem of inex eckty, we have to turn the system upside down. >> other than fixing the broken down subway, with the subway in shambles was symbolic for me. your run for governor of new york the first thing you got hit with is celebrity. >> right. >> we don't want one even though one is president of the united states. does your celebrity help you or hurt you? >> i think both.

but i think the thing that is really helping us is the more that i talk about issues and the more that i roll out platforms that people are excited about and have been lacking for the last 7 1/2 years. they know something about me. that's not the whole of who i am. who i really am is a public school parent of three kids fighting for more equitable funding for new york seeing for 17 years. >> the thing is, i find it a particular thing about democrats. that democrats say we want substance and policy. but every candidacy is about charisma, right. republicans are left shame-faced about that. no, we'll re-elect governor cuomo. he's running. but democrats, do they have a particular sense of no, we want a politician? >> i think what we're seeing with democratic voters, our democratic voters are so far ahead of many of our elected

leaders, we have a chance, particularly with donald trump in the white house, we have a need to show there's a better direction for this country and new york, by all means should be leading. and that we have so much progressive change that we want here to protect our own people and to set the national agenda. and more and more people who never been in politician before. thousands of us, many of us, women, are running for office for the first time because we feel our elected leaders are letting us down and not keeping up with the chance that are demanding. >> women are ramping up in terms of running for office and voting, leading, it's very women-led, and yet, i wonder why you're not closer to andrew yom mow in the polls. cnn poll, 61/656. white voter, 57/30.

what is that deficit about, do you think? >> i think first of all that poll is not a poll of democratic not even in the democratic primary. i think it would be different if you polled democratic primary numbers because our numbers have been going up. to take in that poll, 60% of new yorkers rate governor cuomo's record or job performance as fair or poor. i think what that tells me we have a real opportunity here. >> how do you overcome the deficit, particularly african-american voters and union workers four square behind governor cuomo right now? >> we keep talking about issues, and lack of issues. >> the three top issues, my producer was telling me those are democratic primary -- >> no, those are general. >> those are general. okay, we'll fix that afterwards. what are the area -- >> education, absolutely education.

investing in our education. we've got the second most equally funded school system. we got children of color, criminal justice system, housing, affordability of housing because he received so much real estate money he's just allowed our rent laws to be shredded. and justice reform. we have such a need for justice reform. we've got two systems, one for harvey weinstein and one for a young man like philippe crowder. we have to change that. >> cynthia nixon, thank you for being here. good luck. >> thank you. >> i have to give a quick shoutout to my friend jamar. it's his birthday. if you see him on broadway, say hello. soon to take over broadway as a great actor acting. he's a brilliant kid. i love him. he's 21. i had him when i was like 12. happy birthday, jammar. love you more "am joy" after the

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since the onset of the drought, more than 129 million trees have died in california. pg&e prunes and removes over a million trees every year to ensure that hazardous trees can't impact power lines. and since the onset of the drought we've doubled our efforts. i grew up in the forests out in this area and honestly it's heartbreaking to see all these trees dying. what guides me is ensuring that the public is going to be safer and that these forests can be sustained and enjoyed by the community in the future. that's our show for today. "am joy" will be back tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern. up next, my girl alex witt with the latest. hey. >> you do not have a 21-year-old son. would you look in the mirror. >> he's probably going i have the hottest mom on tv. >> that's correct. i found him in a cabbage patch when i was 13-ish. >> i believe it. all right. my friend. good day to all of you, i'm