♪ ♪ welcome to "kasie d.c." i'm kasie hunt. we are live every sunday from washington from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern. tonight zero tolerance. the white house defends separating families at the border. as lawmakers, clergy and everyday americans say this is a bridge too far. i'll talk to republican congressman tom cole as the house tries to end the immigration stalemate this week. later i'm joined exclusively by senators jeff merkley and chris van hollen as they descend

on the border detention centers to try and find some answers. now, every president, every party has left their fingerprints on the state of our immigration system today. the reagan administration's amnesty policy drew widespread backlash and still gives some nservatives pause today. the bush administration had its faults. the administration struggled to handle a spike in migrations amid mass deportations. but at the moment, the current administration is separating families from their children at our bor with mexico, not because of a law, but because this administration has chosen to do so. so far despite nearly 2000 children being separated from their families, what's missing from this story are a flood of images of these young children. it was images of children, after all, that spurred the president to change course in syria. so far, this young toddler has become the face of this policy.

stop and look at her for just a moment. and remember that there are thousands -- thousands of other faces that we have not seen. that's, in part, because cameras have been granted such limited access to the facilities where these children are being held. let's go live now to msnbc's jacob soboroff in texas. jacob, you have been one of the few journalists to see the facilities where migrant children are being held. tell us what it is that we can't see. >> reporter: so, kasie, this building behind me is nondescript, but probably the epicenter of the entire conversation we are having. this is the border patrol central processing center called ursula. inside are 1200 detainees and more young children have been separated from their parents inside that building as their parents leave the building and anywhere else along the southern border, and that is because this

sector, the rio grand valley, sees more apprehensions, more people trying to cross illegally than anywhere else. and inside this building today, we got inside with another group of journalists for the first time. and what we saw, frankly, is a shocking as everything else that we have been seeing. and i want to be really clear, what's happening inside that building in terms of people being detained inside cages -- by the way, we weren't allowed to take cameras in, but we were given photos from customs and border protection. people have been detained inside this building for a long time. this is the first time since -- this is the first time ever that children have been separated on a systematic basis. look at those photos right there. from their parents and that is because of the trump administration. people are locked up in cages, essentially what look like animal kennels. i don't know any other way to describe it. strangely the washington post gave senator jeff merkley what they call three pinocchios for saying kids were locked up in cages here.

that is exactly what i saw today. what's different than what is going on in this building than the obama administration is the systematic separation of children from their parents under zero tolerance policy. in this sector alone, there have been over 1100 kids separated from their parents since the policy began. we know 2000 since early april across the entire southern border so it's a massive amount coming out of here. in this building, what happens is parents get ready to leave the building and they don't know if they're going to i.c.e. family detention with their children or if they get to bring their children with them or if they're going to the courthouse to get charged. ultimately they are given a piece of paper, they're taken to the courthouse, their children are left behind here, and they don't know when they are going to see their children ever again frankly. i don't think that, you know, they're supposed to call this phone number and figure out the details and that's something that is supposed to get explained to them, but there is a big mess going on right now. even the border patrol inside this building says they're overstaffed, they don't have enough resources. the system is getting stressed

out because the trump administration decided to put this into place and the consequence really haven't been worked out. the biggest consequence of all is thousands of young children in a way that has never been done before, taken from their parents. and when you hear the trump administration say this has been done before, this is democrat policy, this is not unusual, that's b.s. frankly. >> jacob, were you able to talk to any of the children in the facility or get a sense for what it was like for them? and how, how quickly -- is there any warning for these people? you said they're just handed a piece of paper. what dictates what's on that piece of paper? is it -- i'm stuck on this idea of how terrified people must be walking up to receive whatever piece of information is going to tell them, whether or not they're going to be allowed to stay with their kids. >> yeah, there was a mother in tears there today as a group of journalists came around r. we were asked not to talk to people inside.

without the permission of border patrol. there were a couple we were sabl to talk to. the idea is by court order they have to be out of here within 72 hours. and because it's sort of a hodgepodge of rules and regulations coming together, right now they're trying to get people out of this facility as fast as possible. if the parents are going to be charged, they try to get them -- they're trying to get them over to federal court as fast as possible. they're trying to get the kids out of here as fast as possible into facilities run by health and human services. but these scenarios are coming up that we're finding out about where a parent, for instance, might be charged. by the way, the trump administration, again, wants to charge 100% of the people that come into this country illegally. right now in this sector they're saying that number and the separations are around 40% with the goal of charging everybody. there are scenarios where a parent might leave, go to the federal court house, be charged and sentenced with time served, come back to this building behind me and their kids are already gone and they're already

into the h.h.s. system and they don't know how to find their child and they don't know when they're going to find their child and they don't know where to find their child. so, there are these inconsistencies in the way this is all playing out that's just making these terribly painful and irrational situations that seem like they could be put together in a way that just frankly makes more sense. >> jacob soboroff live in texas. thank you so much for spending your fathers day to bring us this story here. great reporting and i'm sure we'll talk to you again soon. i want to welcome my panel here with me on-set. the founding president and msnbc contributor teresa kumar. washington post and msnbc analyst philip rucker and ken dilanian. teresa kumar, i want to start with you with the story we started off with jacob. there has been a lot of d

dissembling from trump administration officials. as lanyndsay said, the trump with a phone call.ld stop this >> this is a decision formulated when john kelly was head of d.h.s. he threw it out there and then it tuck and sessions literally put it into play in may. this is something he cannot only do overnight, but let's look at mitch mcconnell and at paul ryan. they also have a legislative calendar they can control. there are two pieces of legislation right now they can say they could end it today. there is something we need to underscore. 90% of these individuals right now that are being charged, they're being charged with a misdemeanor. in april, the supreme court ruled that immigrants can be held indefinitely without bail, so it not only is it messy, but it's almost a lining to ensure these individuals are incarcerated for adds long as possible and they're doing it for misdemeanors that do not make sense. the extent of the cruelty is unimaginable. they have also been reporting that in san diego, even siblings

have been separated and they can only see each other once a week. there is no rhyme or reason for what's happening. what we are experiencing right now at the border is not normal immigration pattern, it is not for economic reasons. these are refugees. i would like to remind the american people we set the standard. we crafted the human rights laws the rest of the world practice. the u.n. said what we are doing to children is in violation of their rights. >> philip cker, what is going on behind the scenes at the white house? on the one hand you have officials like jeff sessions g out there being very clear, the president is blaming democrats -- >> which is not true. >> very important, not true. hr administration policy they can stop with a single phone call. melania trump is saying we have to have policies with heart, quote-unquote. you can see her statement there. she said we need to have a country that follows all laws but governs with heart. where is the president on this and whether this should continue? >> well, this weekend it's become a real political crisis

as well as a humanitarian crisis that threatens to spiral out of control for the president. he said friday -- he talked to reporters friday on the north lawn of the white house and said he doesn't like the policy of separating children from their parents and he blamed it on democrats. that's not true. it's not the democrats' fault as we have said. and the white house is grappling with over the weekend how to deal with it and they don' an easy answer for it. kellyanne conway, counselor to the president, really struggled on "meet the press" earlier this morning to defend this policy. she said as a catholic, as a mother she doesn't like to see what's happening there. we are hearing more and more about what's happening inside those detention centers like with jacob's report. my colleagues at the post had a story this weekend about a young girl separated from her parents in tears, very emotional about it, and the workers, relief workers inside the detention facilities are prohibited from counseling -- >> i read that. it's heart breaking. >> they're not allowed to hug them, comfortem. this is a real problem for the white house to deal with. and we have tuesday, the

president planning to go up to capitol hill to meet with republican lawmakers there to try to come up with some sort of legislative solution. but he wants more than just a fix for this particular policy. he wants funding for that border wall. >> ken dilanian, the other piece of this, a couple pieces, the homeland security secretary kristen nielsen has reportedly been very frustrated with this behind the scenes, but of course in public we showed her tweet earlier where she says we don't have a policy of doing this yet they are doing it. also, frankly, the facilities our law enforcement is going to get overwhelmed pretty quickly by the sheer numbers. >> and what she meant is that it's not their policy to separate kids. it's their policy to have a zero tolerance policy against immigrants and to arrest everybody crossing illegally. you know what, there are a lot of people in the trump base that support that. it is true most countries around the world have a much less generous policy than we do. there is a reason they're not stopping in mexico, they're going to our border. but most americans are not on board with this cruel and

punitive policy that stems from current law of removing these children. if that's the only way you can arrest everybody, then you just can't do it. that's what kiersten kneel son has been saying behind t scenes. >> joining me to talk about it tom cole of oklahoma. congressman, it's good to see you tonight. >> thank you, kasie. >> thank you for being here. i want to show you some of the remarks that your colleagues, republican colleagues in the congress have had to say about this topic we've been discussing, separation of children from their families at the border. first paul ryan, the house speaker, and then senator lindsey graham. take a look and we'll talk about it. >> are you comfortable with the current zero tolerance policy leading to parents and children being separated at the border? >> no, i'm not. this is because our court ruling. >> mr. speaker, on that point, this is actually a policy change from the trump administration for zero tolerance -- >> and there is also a court ruling involved. this is something we think should be -- >> religious leaders have come out and said this is inhumane. do you agree?

>> we don't want kids to be separated from their parents. >> president trump could stop this policy with a phone call. if you don't like families being separated, you can tell d.h.s. stop doing it. >> congressman, should the president make that phone call and stop this policy? >> well, i certainly think we shouldn't be separating young children from their nts. but frankly, in this case, if you want asylum, you can go to any embassy in any country and seek it. we'll adjudicate it there. you can come to a port of entry and it will be dealt with there. again, you wouldn't be separated from your children. if you cross the border illegally, you run that risk. frankly we have surges like this. we had them during the obama years. we had hundreds of young children held in my district at fort seal, oklahoma, ranging from ages 8 to 14. >> the obama administration, sir, they specifically grappled with this question about whether to separate children from their families, and they decided not to do it and that's how we ended up with many of these family detention centers. >> milwaukee i, ka esie, that's

not exactly true. when i'm looking at an 8-year-old child in my district, ey weren with their parents. they may have been separated because they traveled alone or traveled in a group or with somebody else. so a lot of these cases are not actually involving a separation of the parents. it's a dangerous thing and discouraging people from traveling thousands of miles where they can be exploited and preyed upon and where they run great physical risk is the right thing to be doing. now, if we're going to have hopefully an opportunity this week to address this legislatively and fix it, i agree with speaker ryan. this is not a policy we want to pursue. but i have a lot of sympathy with border agents confronted with thousands of people and don't have any easy recourse as to what to do with them. again, we've housed children for a lot of years. i've seen it myself under multiple administrations when we get these summer surges. >> well, at the same time, i take your point but i do think it is very distinct and different to have unaccompanied minors crossing the border by

themselves than to have people arriving at these detention centers. you mentioned legislation, though, comprehensive or if not comprehensive, then certainly more seping immigration legislation has failed time and time and time again in the congress, trying to grapple with so many of these issues all at once. if, in fact, this compromise legislation that you all have talked about fails to pass the house, would you support a narrow immigration proposal to end this separation of families at the border? >> iwould. i'm not for separating young children from their families. but again, you have to understand that the sheer scope of what we're grappling with. and frankly, i would hope people that are concerned about this would make sure our borders are more secure and that we follow the president's four pillars which i still think are the most sensible ways of dealing with problems we have. in terms of comprehensive legislation that's probably not going to happen. i much prefer dealing with things in several pieces of

legislation. i think we'll have that opportunity this week. i hope our friends on the other side of the aisle help us and i hope republicans, again, are supportive of what the president is trying to do in terms of securing the border. >> the president hasn't been 100% clear on this compromise bill. it's been quite muddy over the past few days. is your understanding that he would sign this compromise legislation if it were to pass? >> that's my understanding. and i get your point that i was confused myself on friday, but i think the president gave an impromptu press conference and may not have understood the question. frankly he's been pretty busy guy between north korea and the g7 summit so he may not have been fully briefed. but he's going to come and visit with us on tuesday and i think we'll have opportunity to see where he's at. it's my understanding he would support either of the two pieces of legislation that speaker ryan is planning to present to the house. ag idea we can solve it in the house in a day, not true. anything we do has to go through the senate, has to be solved or signed by the president. so, if you want to deal with

something, it needs to be bipartisan and you need to have both chambers and the executive branch on the same page. >> given that, the time it takes to do this, do you think the president should make that -- this phone call and stop family separations until you can take action -- >> i do. i am not for family separations under any circumstances. but i'm also not for catch and release. that is, i wouldn't just release the population either. frankly, we're on the verge of being overwhelmed on on the border. we've had this before. we were overwhelmed when president obama was there. as i said, we've had lots of centers with young children, eight years and younger in some cases, on their own. it's not a good situation. i would hope parents don't put their children in that situation, but certainly if the rent is there, the child is better off with the parent. >> congressman cole, thank you very much for coming on to play ball with us tonight. appreciate it. i'll see you on the hill later on this week. >> thanks. >> thanks. teresakumar, your reaction to

what the congressman said. >> if you recall, vice-president biden went down to mexico and actually crafted something with the mexican government saying, how can we actually prevent this? we saw the research coming. they were working closely with the mexican authorities. we are so on the wrong side with the mexican government. the mexican government is not cooperating -- >> it isn't necessarily people from mexico -- >> it was part of that migration. they were basically providing different place s to stop and provide people relief. the challenge, though -- and i think this is what the american people have to recognize -- if you are a mother or father and you are traversing literally three to four countries to get to the border, how terrible is your situation? it must be so terrible that you actually are willing toisk your life. when he's mentioning to your point, kasie, he said when he is mentioning that you found a lot of unaccompanied minors by themselves, that's because an 8-year-old was put on a bus and said go that way because it's unsafe here. >> and it is a much different situation. >> absolutely. >> which the congressman acknowledges. >> the overall picture, this

mass migration to the united states, we are at net neutral. these are not your common immigrant. they are refugees, they are fleeing violence, fleeing desperation. >> much more on this conversation as the night continues. coming up, paul manafort is behind bars as pressure mounts on michael cohen and roger stone. we'll have the latest developments out of the russia investigation. and later, my interview with senate candidate cory stewart who stunned virginia with his comments and his primary victory. but first, it was another whiplash week in washington. "kasie d.c." back after this.

>> breaking news about this justice department inspector general's report. >> comey made a serious error in jump. >> 2000 children being taken from their parents over a six-week period. >> here's donald trump outside the white house. >> he speaks and his people sit up at attention. i want my people to do the same. >> trump's former campaign chief is in jail. >> did i not say there was going to be a ton of news this week? c, who's already won three cars,

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welcome back to "kasie d.c." former trump campaign chairman paul manafort spent his first weekenbehind bars after a federal judge revoked his bail following accusations of witness tampering. he'll spend at least the next three months in a virginia facility while he awaits trial. though he has pleaded not guilty. meanwhile, the washington post is reporting that roger stone has now admitted to a meeting meeting with a russian national in may of 2016 who allegedly

offered him damaging information about hillary clinton. stone tells the post that nothing ever came of the meeting, but the sit-down is reportedly of interest to robert mueller. president trump's lawyer rudy giuliani reacted to the report in an interview this morning. >> president trump aware of this meeting? >> i doubt it. i certainly didn't know about it. it's news to me. i just read it here in the washington post. it seems to me, however, whatever the recollection, differing recollections about this, it sort of gets resolved with the fact that stone did nothing about it, came to the conclusion, according to the post, it was a waste of time. he and greenberg came to the conclusion it was a waste of time. so, i can't imagine anything got back to the then presidential candidate that was of any substance. if he had concluded it was a waste of time. >> robert mueller has a funny way of jogging people's memories. ken dilanian, what exactly is roger stone's story? he e-mailed you?

>> he did. i reached out to him. i got a response moments before coming on air. his story is he forgot about this meeting with the russian national. he said i flatly rejected his proposal in what was a 20-minute meeting and never mentioned it to trump or the trump campaign because the idea was so ludicrous. >> he forgot about it, now he remembers details. >> he said his recollection was refreshed by michael caputo whose recollection was refreshed by mueller. >> manafort all of a sudden being in jail jogged more details. that could very well be possible. >> the thing in this story my colleagues in the post wrote about with roger stone, he wasn't just offered dirt about hillary clinton. the russian national was trying to sell dirt about hillary clinton and what roger stone told him in that meeting was that donald trump doesn't pay for anything. that trump would not put forward the money to get that damaging information, not that he didn't want the damaging information or that it was somehow inappropriate -- >> potentially they would have

accepted it. they weren't going to pay $2 million for it. >> that's the implication. >> here's what's interesting about this story. caputo and stone are spinning about impropriety on the part of thegovernment. he has a history of being an fbi informant. they were wondering if he was working a as an fbi informant at the time. this was two months before james comey said the trump/russia investigation began. if he was, the fbi would have some questions to answer. so far there was no evidence he was. >> would the fbi have something to answer or would this be the thing that potentially prompted them to open the russia probe? >> to run an informant at a senior aide in a mainstream presidential campaign would be a big decision requiring top level approvals even in the justice department. they wouldn't have done it on a whim or gone fishing. they might have had good cause to do it, even at moment, two months before the formal investigation began. it is something the republicans are trying to raise, throwing up smoke and suggesting this was improper. why didn't they warn us about

trump/russia influence on the campaign and instead of targeting us. >> it was weird they kept going after hillary clinton for her e-mails. it seems like e-mails is what's going to bring them down. what's app messages on cohen's phone he forgot to erase is giving them a litany of information. the fact he had 16 cell phones on them and all of them had high level information is basically one of the things mueller is interested in. >> i can barely manage one cell phone. teresa kumar, thank you for coming on, appreciate your perspective. still to come on "kasie d.c.," new york's attorney generals president trump's charitable foundation accusing him and his children of persistent illegal conduct. "kasie d.c." back after this. ld? you good? yeah, you? [ roaring ] [ screaming ] nope.

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ask welcome back to "kasie d.c." new york's attorney general is taking aim at the president's charitable foundation. in a lawsuit filed on thursday, president trump and three of his children, don junior, eric and ivanka, are accused of illegal conduct stemming from the misappropriation of donations to the trump foundation. the lawsuit claims the president used the organization to payoff business debts, to decorate one

of his golf clubs and even stage a multi-million dollar giveaway at a 2016 campaign event. president trump fired back on twitter saying, quote, i won't settle this case. joining me now washington post reporter and msnbc contributor who broke the story david farenthold, david, thank you so much for coming in tonight. good to see you as always. i have a case this stems from reporting you did on it's a portrait he paid to hang at mar-a-lago. remind us all. >> it was a portrait of himself, i should say, first of all -- >> a self-portrait. >> he bought, paid $10,000 for it, paid money from the donald trump foundation. >> there it is, very nice. >> once you have charitable money, you have to use it for a charitable portion. is this hanging on the wall of a children's hospital, is it doing some charitable good out there? through crowd sourcing on t theenthe

internet, no, it was hang ng on the wall of the sports bar at doral. >> how is it built? why now, what are the things that to you seem most significant about the case they build here? >> this is the result of a 20-month investigation that began during 2016 as a result of some stories that we did, and they used -- they looked at e-mails, did depositions, they built this case showing that donald trump had misused his charitable foundation, this foundation that had -- >> supposed to be tax exempt. that's the kind of core of this. >> right. the basic idea of this is that once you create a tax-exempt foundation, you get tax benefits for putting money in there. it's not a pocket or wallet, a checkbook with your name on t. it's supposed to have independent directors, spend money for charitable good. trump never grasped that. even though that is the basic idea of charity law, he always used this foundation as basically just another checkbook where he could use it to write checks for things that he wanted. so as you said earlier, he used

it several times to settle debts that his for-profit businesses had and paid as part of the settlement. he would use his foundation to save his businesses money. in the 2016 campaign, turned his foundation basically into an arm of his campaign. >> phil rucker, how is this playing in the white house? the president has said any attempts to go after his businesses are a bright red line. he's fought with democrats and new york politics for a long time. >> well, and it dates back to the campaign and david's great reporting during the campaign and the attitude inside the white house is trump won the election so nothing that had to do with the campaign doesn't matter any more. so all the issues with the women and porn stars and so forth is -- that's old news. it's not something we need to engage in. clearly trump is bothered by it. that's why we saw the tweets on friday or thursday, whatever day that was in reaction to the lawsuit. but i think in terms of the operations of the white house they're not that concerned with it and they're hoping that it will be sort of a nuisance that

plays out on the side. >> ken dilanian, what's your sense of this? is there any piece of it in particular you think might have lasting impact? >> what i wonder, maybe david knows the answer to this, does anyone have any criminal exposure to this? >> this seems so blatant to charity law. when does it rise to the level of you go to jail? >> they do not have under statute to bring criminal charges for misuse of a charity. when they put up this lawsuit, they sent referrals to the irs and federal election commission both of which have that authority to bring criminal charges. one of the most interesting parts of this lawsuit was the language they use to describe trump's own conduct which was it was willful and knowing. he violated the laws in a willful and knowing manner. that is important because to prove a criminal charge in tax law, you have to prove that the defendant actually knew what the law was and violated it anyway. willfulness is the standard and to use the word willful is the indication that the new york a.g. thinks this might be criminal conduct and is sort of nudging others to follow it in that way. >> if the president is not going

to settle the case, what are the options? >> it's funny he said that because he actually has settled parts of this case already. if you look through the lawsuit, a lost charges he's already said, yeah, i did that, i'll pay the money back and i'll pay a penalty tax on top of t. there is more they have accused him of that he doesn't want to settle on. there will be a lawsuit. he could be forced by a judge to pay millions of dollars in repayments and penalty taxes. he could also be banned from leading any nonprofit in new york state for ten years. so, the guy who is the leader of the free world wouldn't be able to be on the board of the staten island little league. >> good way to put it. >> the next consequence is after this new york a.g. case will be the irs. do they pursue something civilly against him, do they fine him, make him pay penalties, or is there a criminal charge down the road. >> david farenthold, thank you so much. great reporting as always. keep us posted. philip rucker, ken dilanian, thank you both as well. >> thanks, kasie. >> when we come back, states of play. corey stewart with controversial

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just a year and a half after the trump presidential campaign fired its virginia chairman, that same man is back on the campaign trail apparently back

in the president's good graces. on tuesday corey stewart became the republican nominee to face-off against democratic senator tim kaine. he gained national attention not only for his role on the trump campaign where he was let go for staging a protest at the rnc headquarters but his hard line stance on immigration in virginia. but trump took to twitter tuesday to congratulate stewart and say, quote, don't under estimate corey. corey stewart is on-set with me here now. thank you for taking the time to be on the show. i want to start bysking you about the republican party here in washington. senator corey gardener that ones the national senatorial committee said they will not endorse you, not back you, not give you money. why do you think that is? >> i beat their guy. they took their best shot at me, but, you know, they spent a lot of money on my race trying to knock me off. they've been at me a long time. i've been a strong supporter of the president. but they're going to come around

and they're going to need to see momentum in my race to show it is competitive. it will get competitive. at that point they'll come around. >> their guy the more moderate who you beat by a handful of percentage points has called you a racist. >> he said that. it's not true. you know, i don't have a racist bone in my body. >> why are you spending time with the organizer of the charlottesville rally? >> so, at that time i did not know that he was. it came out later. after we found out he was a racist, i wanted nothing else to do with him ever again. now, you know, i need all my supporters. i want people to vote for me. but at the same time, i don't control what's in their hearts and minds. i only control what's in my heart and my mind. and i don't have a racist bone in my body and ts -- >>t's hard for people to believe that when they see you sitting with someone like that. >> well, you know, you meet all kinds of people in politics, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people. you don't do a background check on all the people you meet with.

paul, for example, when i complimented him -- >> he was the one running in was which is for paul ryan's seat, totally anti-semitic. >> when he ran in wisconsin against paul ryan, there were other conservatives supporting him who said nice things about him including the president -- >> you called him your personal hero. >> ann coulter. but afterward and i did say those nice things about him. afterward he came out, kind of lost his marbles and came out with anti-semitic comments and i disavowed him and others did. >> you have a hard line on immigration as well. do you think president shld be separating children from their families at the border? >> i don't think president trump is separating -- >> the trump administration policy. they changed the policy. he could reverse it as lindsey graham conservative said. >> there has been a law since president obama. i think it's the right policy. the fact is we do have to

enforce the law, however, otherwise we'll have another humanitarian crisis at the border like we did a few years ago. a lot of those children came into my county. i know everything about it. we don't want to have that happen. we have to send the signal to everybody else south of the border that if you come to the united states, illegally, you're going to get arrested and yes, your children will be temporarily separated from you. as soon as you go back home -- >> how is that in the best interest of the children? how is that -- >> we have to have -- the question, though, is really what is in the best interest of the united states. that's our -- >> that's more important than these children? >> absolutely. the policy of the united states, immigration policy must be what's right for america. what's right for american workers, what's right for the united states. >> do you think that the policy of ripping these children away is a moral policy? >> i think it's an unavoidable policy. i think the fact is that if you come to the united states illegally and you're arrested -- >> let's be clear. these are people com here to ask for asylum which is a legal thing.

they can, they have a legal pathway to apply for asylum. they have made months' long journeys, sometimes with small children. they are crossing in places you aren't supposed to stop. you don't see that as -- >> you can apply for asylum. you don't have to come to the united states to apply for asylum. if you cross the border illegally, the president has made it clear he's going to enforce the law. he's going to arrest the adults. that i believe in the end, it sounds terrible, but in the end -- >> it is terrible. >> nobody wants to see children -- nobody wants to see that. not conservatives, not liberals, nobody wants to see children separated from their parents. no question about that. we're in a tough position. if you don't enforce the law you will have a humanitarian crisis again of much greater magnitude than we have now. you have to enforce the law or across the border, more children without parents. >> you lost to ed gillespie who

is governor who went on to he used racially tinged adds, highlighting ms13, immigrants were going to come out to get you. he tried to run on that in a statewide race and he lost. i think we can show you a little piece of that ad. >> ms13 appears to be surging again. >> the ms13 gang lured the victim into a fairfax county park, stabbed him repeatedly. >> committing violent and brutal crimes. >> ms13 is a menace. ralph northam voted in favor of sanctuary cities that allowed dangerous immigrants back on the street increasing the threat of ms-13. ralph northam's policies are dangerous. >> i'm ed gillespie candidate for governor and i support this ad for a safer, stronger virginia. >> he used this campaign and lost in statewide virginia. what makes you think you can win? >> i think that ad was correct. i didn't support everything ed

gillespie did -- >> i didn't ask you about the accuracy of the ad. that was his strategy. this is where i'm going to he can to us, hit immigration as a hot button issue as hard as i can and make people afraid and he lost. >> the thing is that people didn't believe ed gillespie because it was kind of a strange term for -- turn for him. i have been dealing with this issue for 12 years now in prince william county. i led the nation in cracking down on illegal immigration. the citizens in my community were concerned that we had a lot of illegal immigrants coming to our community. not a lot of them, but a portion of them committing crimes and they wanted us to do something about it. we have an ms-13 gang problem. 80% of ms-13 gang members are illegal immigrants. >> would you support a nationwide policy like you implemented in your county where police required to check the identification and immigration status of anyone they arrest? >> yes, we confirm 100% of everybody who is in the jail, we confirm 100% of the immigration status.

if it's a person who has been arrested for a crime and has been determined to be here illegally, we hand them over to i.c.e. for deportation. it is a common sense policy that focusses in on the criminal element. by the way, more than 8100 illegal aliens since the policy was put in place, not aingle case of racial profiling, not one. >> you said your opponent tim kaine hates america. what is it about him that makes you think he hates america? >> he does not support anything the president has done. >> and you think you don't support the president, you don't support america? >> not based on that. he thinks only of himself. he's thinking only about his own left wing ideology. if you ask yourself this question, what has tim kaine ever done, what's his reported the past six years? he has president had one significant accomplishment. and now instead of supporting the president and reducing taxes, bringing back business, bringing back manufacturing, securing the border, doing all these good things, bringing peace to -- >> i think most people would

argue virginia's economy has been doing well. >> under president trump. >> in part -- well, it was on a path to do that under president obama. in fact this area northern virginia in particular has been doing relatively well especially compared to the rest of the country. >> northern virginia has been shielded protected we have a lot of government here, but the rest of virginia has been suffering, and it's been suffering because we've had aned am the obama administration that has been taxing businesses andiandic making it more difficult for businesses to come back. we have a president who has done that and you see manufacturing returning to the country in a way not since the 1950s. >> back to the original question, do you think tim kaine hates america? >> yes, when you care about yourself a lot more than the interest of the united states. >> i tweeted a photo shopped image of tame kaine's son who was arrested on an anti-trump protest, retweeted this image. this is misleading to voters.

this never happened. this image here, senator kaine on the senate floor never happened. do you think this misleading to people who follow you? >> the photo of his son is real. >> it's a real photo of his son, not have the hammer and sickle in the original version. that is photo shopped onto a poster of tim kaine. >> obviously that is a clear photo shop. >> why would you spread that? >> let me ask you this, okay. his son gets arrested in minneapolis, for a riot. he's rioting in conjunction with the trump rally, there are people who are arrested and he should have been prosecuted but instead, tim kaine gets him off and he said that he loves the fact -- >> there is no evidence that tim kaine got him off. >> let's be obvious, clear, if that was not a powerful man's son he would have been in jail today. the thing is that tim kaine said he loves the fact that his kids are involved in politics, right after this incident. i thought that was ridiculous. says more about tim cakaine and

his son. i apologize because i'm saying it on father's day but it was bad parenting. >> one was in the united states marine corps as far as anyone hating america. corey stewart thank you for the coming. the much more on the higrant families separated at the border. i'll speak with senators about the tour they finished today of a center in south texas. two motorcycles, a boat, and an r.v. i would not want to pay that insurance bill. [ ding ] -oh, i have progressive, so i just bundled everything with my home insurance. saved me a ton of money. -love you, gary! -you don't have to buzz in. it's not a question, gary. on march 1, 1810 -- [ ding ] -frédéric chopin. -collapsing in 226 -- [ ding ] -the colossus of rhodes. -[ sighs ] louise dustmann -- [ ding ] -brahms' "lullaby," or "wiegenlied." -when will it end? [ ding ] -not today, ron. -when will it end? [ ding ] if you have moderate to thsevere rheumatoid arthritis,

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it's been one year since a gunman attacked a congressional base practice virgin hous majority whip steve scalise who was gravely wounded in the attack was b on the field this week taking part in this year's annual charity game at nationals park in washington. there he is. having gone through nine surgeries, and physical therapy, scalise said it felt great to be back on the field and he got the first out, but for the record the score was 21-5 with testimoniy s democrats coming out on top. great moment after a tough year. still to come, the caycie dvr and next hour back live to the border with senator's merkley and van holland.

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the department of justice inspector general issued a report sharply critical of how the fbi conducted the clinton email investigation. >> put a special prosecutor on this. >> bias is so pervasive. >> this is a case where it's crying out for someone to investigate the investigators. >> this ig report is just the

beginning. so a full and thorough vetting of what went on. >> roger stone tells "the washington post" that in may 2016 he met with a russian national. >> this is the 11th campaign associate to reveal some kind of contact with russia. >> was president trump aware of this meeting? >> i doubt it. >> the president told you that romger stone never spoke to him about this meeting? >> i haven't had a chance to talk to him yet about it. >> the administration has taken a zero tolerance policy. >> separating migrant children from their parents, over a six-week period, separating nearly 2,000 children. >> they're using the grief, the tears, the pain of these kids as mortar to build their wall. >> nobody likes seeing babies ripped from their mother's arms. >> the whole purpose here is to demonize donald trump and here say guy that's shown more profile and courage than anybody on this issue. >> this is inhumane. i'd like to say it's un-american but it's happening right now in america. >> it's deeply unethical.

>> nobody likes this policy. >> i hate to say it, that's the law and he's enforcing the law. i don't think you have to justify it. >> welcome to the second hour of caycie d.c. with me on set white house reporter for the "l.a. times" and msnbc political analyst hee lie stobells and chairman chief strategist for hillary clinton guy cecil and white house correspondent from mcclatchy newspapers fra s franco ordonez. i want to start with behind the scenes what's going on at the white house. could you see there steve bannon and kellyanne conway aren't defending what is happening. but at the same time not saying it should be stopped. >> there's a difference between bannon and kellyanne conway. b the president said this is the

democrats fault, the fact this is a trump administration policy change two months ago going to the zero tolerance enforcement policy that led to the separation of around 2,000 immigrant families and that is something that the white house is really trying to put on democrats on one level and then you have other people steven miller who is really the adviser behind the policy. it tells you this is what he believes in and what he wanted to do for a long time. he convinced the president to go ahead and do it. 's sitting there owning it. steve bannon doesn't have relationship to the administration but he's on tv owning it and other people trying to play to their base and at the same time to shrug and say this isn't our fault, if only democrats would come to the table and that's -- >> we've been clear every time this has come up this is not a democrats responsibility. this is a trump administration policy change. there are other facilities reportedly set to be brought online, a tent city set to open in el paso, in some cases they are far from the border, and air force base near abilene is reportedly being considered as

another possible site and the houston chronicle reports there are plans under way to bring more children and pregnant teens to a facility once used for people displaced by hurricane harvey. houston was also the site o a 1980 presidential forum where two future republican presidents confronted the growing problems with mexico and cuba in far different terms than what we're hearing today. >> do you think the children of illegal aliens should be allowed to attend tlic schools free or do you think their parents should pay for their education? >> we're doing two things. we're creating a whole society of really honorable, decent family-loving people that are in violation of the law, and secondly we're exacerbating relations with mexico. the answer to your question is much more fundamental than whether they attend houston schools it seems to me. i don't want to see, they're living here i don't want to see 6 and 8-year-old kids being made, you know, totally

uneducated and made to feel that they're living outside the law. let's address ourselves to the fundamentals. these are good people, strong people, part of my family. >> rather than making them or talking about putting up a fence, why don't we work out some recognition of our mutual oblems, make it possible to come herth a work per while working and earning here, they pay taxes here, and when they want to go back they can go back and cross and open the border both ways by understanding their problems. this is the only safety valve right now they have with that unemployment that probably keeps the lid from blowing off. >> and one thing that george h.w. bush said that we didn't play was that "yes, they should get what their neighbors get" referring to people who come to the country undoed. this is an incredibly differe conversation. >> look it's incredibly hard to sit here in a suit and tie and talk in well measured tones when we see what's happening in this country. this is not about the law. this is not about policy.

the administration has been clear they are using 6 and 7 and 8-year-old kids as a barring anyone chip to build a wall. that's what this is about. the president has made clear, steven miller has made clear, the fact of the matter is, speak truth. they want to keep black and brown families out of the country, and they want to justify it by building a wall, by holding kids hostage, by keeping them in cages and tent cities. i don't know what other way you describe these things. i don't know what words you use other than immoral and sinful, whatever faith you come from, whatever politics you practice, i never thought i would long for the days of ronald reagan and george bush, as a democrat but compared to what we see going on today, something has to change and the only people that are going to bring change are either the administration or republican members of congress who will either develop a conscience or the guts to stand up to this president and to require them to make changes to what they're doing today. >> franco, does your reporting at the white house back up guy's assertion that this is what the

president is doing, using these images, these families as a bargaining chip to get what he wants? >> the trump administration hasn't backed down. they are as eli pointed out saying over and over and over again that this is not their desire to do. no one wants to separate parents and families, but they're blaming the democrats. if that's the case, they could pick up the call tomorrow, like lindsey graham said and could have changed the policy. the fact is they're not going to do that. they know this is an issue they want to work on, want to continue. if they didn't, they could change this but it doesn't appear like they have any indication doving that. they'll continue to try to change the narrative and blame narrative and see if it sticks. >> in a few minutes we'll be joined by senators merkley and van hollen, visiting facilities in south texas. different topic we'll switch gears here republicans on the judiciary committee demanded documents related to the fbi's

investigation of hillary clinton's email server, the fired former deputy director andrew mccabe and sur vauls of a formrump campaign aide that began in 2016. this morning, committee member trey gowdy described what might have if those demands are not met. >> there is no ambiguity. the speaker of the house was really clear. you're going to comply or there's going to be floor action, and i think they got the message. >> and floor action would bepan available to the people's house? >> including contempt of congress? >> that would be among them, yes, sir. want t ama. i want the documents. >> cecil, this is a significant shift from trey gowdy, who previously said the spygate thing, there's no there there. the text message sent by peter

is problematic. he's saying we're going to stop the president from getting elected. >> no question a text message represents one perception and a couple of text messages and a lengthy report that is clear. it requires a suspension of belief of facts saying that the fbi a week before the election they broke policy and announced the results of another investigation related to whom -- i mean, this is imsane. i don't know what other way to describe it. i'd like to see trey gowdy bring the full paen naplea of the russian meddling in our elections today, the things we know going on in 2018. it's the hypocrisy, the idea that we are investigating hillary clinton, w is not the president, will unfortunately from my perspective not be the president, and that's what we're talking about, instead of the russian meddling in e election

i think is just -- i'm running out ofe adjectives. sorry. >> i was going to let you if inish your sentence there. >> sorry. >> f enough. eli, the person that comes out looking, i mean jim comey does not come out of this smelling well? the ig report released last week the conclusion and director ray said we're standing by this, going to take disciplinary action but it's worth pointing out the ig found in evidence that the political bias impacted these investigations, no criminal wrong doing and yet what you're talking about, those two text message a the way that comey was found to have gone against protocol, that is enough for this white house and for people who want to besmerch the justice report. the scintilla of evidence they think reveals bias among fbi agents some people will say there's a deep stake there. if you want to believe that, you want people to believe that, that is what they will latch

onto. >> it may give members of congress cover to say that mueller should wrap up his investigation. that's kind of a piece of this i'm looking for. >> that's right, there have been people in trump's circle his attorneys and outside allies who clam for some time. alan dershowitz suggested this to him going back months you should call for a special second counsel to investigate the current special counsel, make a mess of it. dershowitz and others said to the president your legal team is being too compliant. now w get to an end stage and you're seeing a little more activity from people like rudy giuliani and the media space and others, even allies in congress like we just saw willing to stand up and say okay, i do have a problem with this fbi, i want more information. >> franco, this is kind of the results, right, of the white house's new strategy where they sent rudy giuliani out to continue to badger, to raise questions and we saw real shifts in public opinion so when something like this text message exchange, people are primed to believe it and think the worst.

>> it's true. what we are seeing is how important perception is in washington. the trump administration focused on those few words in the text message and that has really stuck in the minds of a lot of people. the same thing can be said about north korea. all of a sudden we don't have a nuclear threat from north korea. the same thing could be talked about the parents being separated from the kids. it's the democrats' fault, it's a narrative the administration is pushing and to his supporters it appears successful. >> eli, it does seem as though there isn't -- every time something new happens where the president asserts some things in a straightforward way that is simply not the case, and chuck todd on "meet the press" did a nice job of compiling i think there were at least five in the compilation they did from his press conference friday they assert things that are not true and people who support the president seem to believe what he says. >> that's right. the underlying theme here is something this white house and this president understand is that facts and reason are often gobbled up by the wave of tribalism and emotion that

people feel. people want to believe something, they are going to, and the president has been unabashet putting things out there and hammering a narrative, no collusion, no collusion, no collusion. he says the same simple things over and over again, and as pr, te with some peop lot of other people think they're obviously not true, but as far as messaging goes and creating that perception, what franco talked about is right. this is from the president's lawyers more of a political response to a criminal investigation, and the political response may be the smartest response because ultimately nothing's going to come of whatever mueller comes up with there's not public support for it and enough pressure on congress. >> when we come back, senators mercury and chris van hollen have been inside some of the detention centers. they'll join us with what they saw, up next. i'll take you there.

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welcome back. as we were talking about, president trump's senior policy adviser steven miller reportedly played a big role in the shaping of thisadministration immigration policy. in a new interview with the "new york times" miller "no nation can have the policy that whole classes of people are immune from immigration law or enforcement. it was a simple decision by the administration to have a zero tolerance policy for ieg entry, period. the message is that no one is exempt from immigration law." you may recall miller has made

controversial claims about the sweeping reach and death of the president's executive powers. here he is in february of 2017 talking about the president's travel ban. >> the end result of this, though, is that our opponents, the media, and the whole world, will soon see as we begin to take further actions that the powers of the president to protect our country are very substantial and will not be questioned. >> so eli stokols he made the point you were making earlier in the "times" interview this was our idea, our decision. we'll have a zero tolerance policy. at what point does this become though and i want to be careful in how we talk about this because we're talking about real people who are having a very difficult andst steterrible tim. the administration has found political advantage in taking on these emotional issues, pushing these buttons. is there a point at which though this becomes a political crisis for the white house, something they need to turn back? >> i don't know if it will impact support for the

president, but going into the mid terms i have talked with republican consultants in the last few days as this has gotten more attention. they're concerned in terms of galvanizing voters, suburban women who don't like the images on . the election is still a long ways away from now and seems crass to talk about this in terms of the politics and the impact on the election but i do think that you're starting to see members of congress say we don't like this policy. there are not a lot of people defending the policy. there are some people in the administration who have gone on record or background and said this is a deterrent, we're doing this, at the same time the president, kellyanne conway and others are trying to put this on the democrats. if the white house is successful muddling who is responsible and if people out there say i don't care who is responsible, i just want members of congress somebody to fix it, then both sides may be blamed for this ultimately. it's hard to say clearly what will happen. >> cecil, you were making the point as we were coming into

this a lot of the suburban house districts the competitive districts are in a district where the story might resonate. >> there are mothers and fathers across the country watching these images and the only muddling happening on the part of the white house is muddling these gangs with what is happening which is we have asylum seekers who are the victims of violence, who the victims of gangs and their country coming to you are oborder, seeking asylum and they are being turned away. they are not being allowed to enter into the country to go through the normal channels the way the administration says they are. they are forced to go to other border crossings and being arrested and separated from their kids and in many cases they're being immediately deported but their children are still housed in these tent cities. there's multiple documentations that the kids being not only separated but being kept while parents return and i don't believe americans are going to look at these images and say the administration is making the right decision, that the policy is, in fact, the righthing to

do for the protection of our country to abuse and to hold hostage and cause permanent damage to 7 and 8-year-old kids. >> a couple weeks ago senator jeff merkley of oregon tried to gain access to casa padre, the converted walmart now holding nearly 1 now, 500 miglant children separated from their parents at the border. this week we learned nearly 2,000 children have been separated from their parents at the border in just the last six weeks. that is thanks to this zero tolerance policy implemented by the trump administration. democratic senator jeff merkley of oregon is back in brownsville at the border detention centers along with democratic senator chris van hollen. t's nice to both of you. this is a different locale than the with unin which we are nommally talking to each other in the halls of the congress. i'd like to hear what you saw today whether you were able to get access or any additional information. one question jacob soboroff

raised one center there was young boys, not clear some young girls or toddlers we've seen photos of are being kept. i'm interested to know what you know that's new, senator merkley and if you will, chris van hollen as well. >> you bet. thanks so much for paying attention to this, because this is really an american tragedy that's unfolding, this new policy of ripping children away from their parents as family seek asylum. the facility behind us gained admission to it, casa padre ironically given, house of the father, father's day and no fathers inside. in april they had some 500 kids here, now they have almost 1,500. this huge surge in kids is large part the result of this policy of separating children from their families seeking asylum. the american academy of pediatrics said that this does

irreparable harm to children and so it has to end. >> kasie, this is a deliberate policy of separating parents from their kids. they were just inside this children's facility where there are many kids who have been separated from their parents. the kids here are 10 years and older. we were told that a lot of the kids who have been separated from their parents are under 10 years old, and they're at other facilities, mostly in this area, in fact some run by this organization. i should stress that the people who are working here are doing the best to care for these kids under very difficult circumstances, circumstances handed to them pause of this deliberate policy of separating kids from their parents. but at other facilities, the girls who were under 10, the boys under 10 and i do think we all need to make sure that we're finding those facilities, and taking a look there as well.

hhs, the government refused to allow any of the kids here to talk to us. obviously they're not interested in a lot of transparency. >> i want to ask you also on the legislative front, in the house, there is a compromise bill on immigration, dealing with dreamers and a series of other issues but they also are talking about ending the separation prohibiting the separation of children from their parents as part of that legislation. nancy pelosi leader of the house democrats said she needed to see details but unlikely she could support a bigger package simply for this one provision. do you think there's a world in which either of you and again just for the simplicity, i know you're having some technical difficulties, we'll start with senator merkley and van hollen as well. could you support a package of reforms that included ending this policy?

>> certainly it all depends upon the details, kasie, but here's what really bothers me. the president came out a couple days ago and said that part of the value of hisolicy of separating kids from parents is it gives him legislative leverage. it is unacceptable in my mind, i think in the minds and hearts of any american that someone can justify a policy of deliberate harm to children, as a way to gain legislative leverage. we need to do right for these kids, regardless of any other pieces of immigration puzzle. >> and kasie, i think it's been well established that there's no law currently that requires president trump to do this. that has been shown to be patently false. that is a lie. this is a deliberate policy change which is why you see a sudden spike over the last six weeks in the number of kids separated from their parents. president trump could right now

on father's day do the right thing and end the policy and reduce the number of kids, eliminate the number of kids torn away from their parents. he could do it today. we don't need a bill. >> wouldn't that be a great thing to do on father's day. >> that would be the right thing to do on father's day, be the right thing to do any time and you know, he should do the right thing by the american people. i think you find people across the country regardless of party saying this is not who we are, this is inhumane. >> to underscore, senator graham said on friday you could end this with a simple phone call. i want to play how president trump is framing this, what he is saying about it. take a look. we'll talk about it. >> mr. president do you agree with children being taken away -- >> no, i hate the children being taken away. the democrats have to change their law. that's their law. >> mr. president it's your policy. >> quiet, that's the democrats

law. >> i'm going to give you an opportunity to respond to that, in real time. that's the democrats law. >> you know, other presidents when they make decisions, they say the buck stops here. they face the public, they say this was my decision, this is why i did it. i'm taking responsibility, and i'm going to explain it. not with president trump. president trump made this decision with his advisers, planned it over a series of months, implemented it in april, announced it may 7th, through his attorney general and says it's the result of some law that was passed by democrats. well, here is a news flash. not true. and i notice that so many articles now when they recite this claim they say in the next paragraph, of course that's not true. this president now has no credibility on any issue, but the fact that we can just routinely say it's not true says how far we've come in the legitimacy argument.

no, there's no law that forces this to happen. it was an administrative decision. it is a terrible, terrible decision. >> look, the president knows it's unpopular, and he just wants to put it on somebody else, even though this was a deliberate decisthat they made. for goodness sakes we've read the memo from his own justice department that lays out this new policy that results in separating kids from their parents. it's right there in black and white. what president trump is trying to do is use something that he could take care of himself right now to try to get other changes in immigration law as part of the process in congress, but that has nothing to do with his ability to change this right now and so it really is not just cynical, it is downright cruel and inhumane so literally hold children hostage, as part of a larger, broader negotiation on immigration reform, when he could prevent the separation of kids from their parents today. >> senators chris van hollen,

jeff merkley, thank you both so much for your time tonight. i really appreciate it. travel safe back home. >> thank you. >> franco, i want to give you the last word here, just respond to kind of what the senators were laying out there, and i mean, try to walk us through how this ends. >> i think it's we shall see. i agree with eli completely, th the moment that kind of breaks the camel's back, that this could be the thing where people step up and force a change of the trump administration. as we've seen in the past they have not done that. when he talked about the mexico, when he started running for president, he talked about mexicans bringing their rapists and worst here. he reads the snake poem talks about immigrants equating immigrants to snakes possibly biting people who are sympathetic to them. this is an issue that is not going to go away but it's certainly not going to be

finished in the next week when they do votes. >> frank ordonez, thank you for your time. still to come here on kasie d.c. >> he's been a friend to me and he says some things i don't agree with. if you don't like me working with president trump to make the world a better place i don't give a [ bleep ]. >> lindsey graham not mincing words when it comes to president trump. why another south carolina republican refused to embrace the president and wound up paying the traprice.

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we've doubled our efforts. i grew up in the forests out in this area and honestly it's heartbreaking to see all these trees dying. what guides me is ensuring that the public is going to be safer and that these forests can be sustained and enjoyed by the community in the future. this video is from 2004. sad for some reason there's no sound. this is mark sanford carrying two pigs, named pork and barrel, when he was governor and feuding with the republican-held legislate tire which would not accept his linetem vetoes. the political world of course was shocked this week when he narrowly lost his republican primary to newcomer katie arrington. joining me is joel sawyer, former dmun indications director for governor sanford. it's been a while but it is lovely to have you on the

program tonight. we were all flabbergasted mark sanford could survive an extramarital affair that had him lying about a hike on the appalachian trail when he was really in argentina and manage to win election to the u.s. house and lose because he wasn't tight enough with president trump. do you buy the explanation that's why he lost? >> kasie, i don't buy that explanation completely. that is a very convenient narrative and it's true. look, if you were in a blican primary and you are seen not sufficiently supportive of the president you're swimming upstream, it's true, but at the same time the reality of the facts on the ground is that mark sanford did not run a winning campaign. and i'm not basis this on conversations with him, i'm basing looking at fec filings when he went and wasn't spending money.

he didn't seem to take this seriously until mid-april, where a poll went up in late april didn't have the full campaign apparatus of grassroots turnout organization, digital operation and give all the credit in the world to katie arrington and her team. they worked their tails off for about 11 months and ended under winning the race. it's strange to me that in 2016 when sanford had a republican primary and he did very little until the very end, it ended up being like 54-46, and that should have set off alarm bells and n, like i said'll be the first to say the trump stuff is absolutely not helpful, but that was defined by his opponent early in the race and like february, march of this year, and then when he finally started to take it seriously, he kind of fought the battle on her terms which clearly was not a winning strategy. >> hmm. rory cooper writes "stop demanding trump critics in

congress blow up their whole careers." he says "it's easy to see why more republicans don't accept democratic oers to criticize the president. there's no upside, no reward. it's lonely to march in a parade with enthere is nobody behind you and the democrats are on the sidelines scolding you for not doing their work for them if you're the republican who is embarrassed by this white house win your election. we need you in office. we need you to outlast the president otherwise the party will be surrendered to the sycophants and the cult of personality, that doesn't mean becoming a sycophant yourself." is this advice you wish mac sanford would have taken. clearly talking to chuck todd on "meet the press" saying hey it's important we have people to stand up for this, but it sounds sayin just didn't really try hard enough. >> well i don't know if it's a matter of effort. i don't know if it's a matter of the extreme frugality or overconfidence, given the last

race, but he ended this race with more than twice as much money in the bank as his opponent spent, and if you look ound at some other things that happen in south carolina, we have an incumbent republican governor henry mcmaster who was endorsed by the president who was on tv like nonstop with videos of him and donald trump standing together and he's an incumbent and the state where the economy is doing well, managed to get like 42% of the vote. i don't know there's necessarily this 1:1 correlation with support or opposition to trump and electoral outcomut like i said, i'll be the first to admit if you're criticizing the president you're swimming up i give credit to mark sanford. he's going to say what he believes, consequences be what they are one way or the other. >> guy cecil, weigh in here as a democrat watching t events unfold and joel makes a good point about the governor's race and that raises questions in my mind whether this is still anti-establishment sentiment that we're seeing more than

anything else, but what did you learn from what happened to mark sanford? >> i think it's not an isolated incident. the west virginia senate primary was about who could be the closest carbon copy of trump, the indiana senate primary the same thing a fight for the trump folk. you looked at the nevada senate primary not much, one of the candidates dropped out. when he had a competitive primary he held dean heller held every position possible on the health care bill, all in the span of two weeks >> not an unfair assessment. >> the fundamental problem maybe this won't be true in south carolina but a lot of states republicans are losing the general election in order to win the primary election. i think that's what we'll find in nevada and indiana. >> in indiana though, in some ways, the candidate who ultimately won there was more of an outsider than anything. you're right. members of congress were drp it we

-- >> also pro-trump platform. look, you get to look at the west virginia race, we ended up with a guy that ran for congress from new jersey, like seven years ago, who is lobbyist, whose wife is a lobbyist and running as the trump candidate in west virginia in order to win the primary. i think republicans are in a tough spot because ultimately they know the last thing they want is a tweet from donald trump attacking them a couple of weeks before their primary, a couple of hours before their primary >> avoiding the angry tweets. >> they're willing to do what susan collins does excuse the trump's policy. >> joel quickly last word to you. do you think this puts the congressional district sanford's congressional doctorate risk of going to a democrat in the fall? >> i don't. it's still a very red district and would take something extraordinary for that to happen. i think the democrats are just going to gamble on trump's approval rating tanking and

continuing to tie katie arrington to donald trump and look, if he tanks, if something terrible happens maybe, but barribar ing exigent circumstances i think it will rein a red district. >> thank you very much. scott pruitt survived the scandal so far, but as conservative support fades could the president be swayed to show him the door? you're watching kasie d.c. ) i'm a four-year-old ring bearer with a bad habit of swallowing stuff. still won't eat my broccoli, though. and if you don't have the right overage, you could be paying for that pricey love band yourself. so get an allstate agent, and be better protected from mayhem. like me. can a ring bearer get a snack around here?

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frankly i haven't paid that close attention. i don't know who pruitt has or has not done to give you a good comment. >> house speaker paul ryan apparently hasn't been paying close attention to the series of scandals surrounding epa chief scott pruitt. some other conservatives havbee hard to miss. one of president trump's most outspoken reporters, laura graham is calling on the president to fire pruitt. conservative magazine "national review" which has been supportive of pruitt's policies is calling for him to be replaced. meanwhile in nebraska a conservative group has launched a new ad calling on president trump to fire pruitt using the president's own signature catch phrase to underscore their point. >> scott proulx sit a swamp monster. mr. president, you know what to do. >> you're fired. >> for the good of the country, pruitt must go.

>> wow. >> yes. swamp monster. >> the swamp monster. i will say we did a piece on the nightly news about the various -- that list that you cannot read that list in an accurate way in a minute and 30 seconds. i think my favorite, there's the used mattress from the trump hotel, there was the chick-fil-a franchise -- >> the fountain pens. $1500 fountain pens. >> what else could we use $1500 for, if not 12 mofountain pens. >> what those people are saying scott pruitt for the good of the ethanol industry. that's what those people are about. everybody has a vested interest, not just about ethics. >> everybody has an angle. >> it is sort of building the president likes pruitt personally, thinks he's done a good job and pruitt benefits from having high profile trump campaign from the new york world, maybe that's kept him there.

at some point the president gets tired of the drip, drip, drip. >> yes. guy, this is not necessarily a specific pruitt question, but one phenomenon of the trump presidency and how fast things move is a list that long can sort of get lost under all of the other news and stories that are coming out of the white house every day, and if you're a democrat trying to break through the noise, trying to win in a swing district, trying to convince voters that the other guy with standard piece of opposition research isn't fit to serve, how on earth do you get anybody to pay attention? >> look, this is a case that hasn't been lost. it has actually gotten a reasonable amount of coverage and still doesn't break, even the speaker of the house hasn't heard anything about the epa administrator. i think it goes to prove one point, the only way you have cabinet offho are removed from office is stringent oversight by the congress which has never -- >> not happening in this case. >> the panaplea of resources is

not brought to look at pruitt or sense of self-respect which the epa administrator does not have. if chick-fil-a and fountain pens and mattresses and trying to get your daughter into uva -- >> i hadn't heard that one. >> yes. i don't see -- maybe paul ryan was right. >> do you think the one thing that sticks out to me was laura ingraham saying no way. part of what was keeping scott pruitt maintaining his support was this unyielding idea that he is something of a hero on the conservative right. that seems like a potential piece that could make a difference. >> i think so. trump listens to those voices and conservative media. if hannity is clamoring for pruitt to be fired in prime time, trump will hear that and think long and hard about it if he isn't already. pruitt has backers and benefits from having, this is a guy who

floated himself as a replayment for jeff sessions for the president and endaerd himself to the president for that reason because the president is unhappy as we know with jeff sessions. the white house is this merry-go-round of personalities and inner personal drama. another thing that hasn't gotten covered is the scandals is there a cost to pay? who knows? what pruitt has done in terms of rolling back these regulations, environmental regulations at the epa, that hasn't gotten enough attention and he's been successful at doing that as far as the president and his allies are concerned. you go back to steve bannon, one goal of the administration was the destruction of the administrative state, rolling back regulations like this, very successful at it and another cabinet executive agencies, they've let people there to just sort of let the place, let people leave. >> certainly one ofhe reasons why you haven't seen mitch mcconnell call for pruitt to step down actively. we have to push pause. "msnbc's headliners" takes a closer look at james comey's

handling of the clinton email probe following the release of the justice department's watchdog report. watch tonight at 10:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. we're back right after this.

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as the supreme court prepares to make landmark decisions on the drawing of partisan lines in key districts, msnbc examines whether your vote will count in the 2018 midterm elections. >> we're a closely and deeply divided country. republicans controlled not only the white house and all of washington but 69 of 99 statec3 governors. all of this has its roots in red map. >> barring a tsunami wave election, many of the districts will remain in the hands of the party that they were designed to be in the hands of for the whole of the decade. that's utterly remarkable and very anti-democratic. >> watch "how to fix an election" tonight right here at 9:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc.

when we return, what to watch for in the week ahead, including a brand-new tweet from the president on how to fix immigration. [phone ringing]

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together, we're building a better california. before we go, we talk about what we're watching in the week ahead. a couple things that happened this week, points of personal privilege. friend of the show, ashley parker, married her now husband mike bender, wall street journal reporter. they cover the white house. yesterday at their home here in

washington. we are all thrilled for them. i also want to say happy father's day to my dad who, of course, i have watched many orioles games with over the years. and there he is with my mom on the campaign trail. also to my grandfather. he is there with my dog radar. you know him from online as well. that's when he was a puppy. i want to remember on this father's day what we have been talking about all night, that is these families separated. my what to watch for is laura bush, a rare step outside writing an op-ed saying this is a cruel, inhumane policy. >> monday, 2:00, reverend barber, religious leaders will be at the capitol. it's going to kick off a week of protest and marching, not just for poor people but for the immigrants that are being held captive. >> the pressure is building on this story. i will watch with a congress does and if they can put pressure on the administration in a bipartisan way. it's going to take some republicans and the president's rally on wednesday night in

minnesota. they are trying to turn -- what does he say when he is there in a couple days about this issue? >> that does it for us tonight. we will be back with you next week from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. eastern. up next, a special, "how to fix an election." for now, good night from washington. jerry magerrymandering is t ultimate political hack. we did it to ourselves. >> when people decide they don't like what's going on in government, they should have the power to change it. what gerrymandering does is it prevents that. >> gerrymandering is drawing maps that aggressively favor one party over the other and make sure that seat never changes hands. >> there are millions of voters whose vote don't matter. >> this is about power. this is about incumbents retaining power. >> after the 2012 elections, i just felt cheated.